Marvelous Midwestern Towns: is it spring cleaning time yet?

Prior discussion thread

Helen, I have half a mind to kick you with my good leg.

Megatrolls talk to themselves a lot in these P&G soap threads.

Bert, you'd end up on your behind if you kicked someone with your good -- and your only -- leg.

Go choke on a hard candy, Helen.

So these threads survive to 600 now?

The Snyder kitchen hasn't been properly cleaned in decades.

Nor has Lily Walsh's cooter.

For douching?

Who kept the best house-Nancy Hughes, Ada Hobson or Bert Bauer?

I’m guessing Nancy’s home was spotless so she could feel superior to tramps like Kim and Ellen.

Unlike Nancy, *my* apron's in the Smithsonian

Well I'll be damned.

That cunt's apron IS in the Smithsonian!

Nancy Hughes keeps plenty of hard candy well stocked at all times.

My sweet rolls were the finest in Bay City. Probably because I laced them with cocaine.

and pussy juice!

Something tells me Victoria Wyndham and Connie Ford were not involved in the on-set drug use of the early 80s on the AW set.

I really struggle with the fact that P&G allowed all their shows to die, and NOW, 20 years later, they want to get back into the soap game with Beyond the Gates. I can't see any new soap performing well in this day and age.

I wonder if Stephen Schnetzer partook. Hope not.

I remember Matthew.

I recently read Harding Lemay's Eight Years in Another World. An interesting read for sure, but he's came off a little full of himself.

Apparently for good reason. R20

It’s interesting that when Time rated the soaps in 1976 (this is the issue with Bill and Susan Seaforth Hayes on the cover), they didn’t seem especially impressed with the P&G soaps. They really didn’t like Edge of Night.

Is that Matthew?

Damn, they didn’t even mention GL in the article. Then rated it and ATWT super low.

Someone asked about holiday celebrations on The Edge of Night. Here's Christmas 1981. Bonus: Gratuitously shirtless Damian in his hospital bed. I thought visitor Calvin might offer to give him a holiday blow job.

R25, didn’t the actors who played Calvin and Damian both die from AIDS-related illnesses?

R26 Irving Allen Lee, the actor who played Calvin Stoner, did.

Wow, Damian is gorgeous. Reminds me of the guys I used to crush on in HS.

The actor's name is Christopher Jarrett. Found a link with this photo and the statement that as of the time someone posted this, Jarrett was very much alive.

Jarrett isn’t gay.

Eldergays, tell me about Search for Tomorrow. Was it any good? I found a clip of the last scene on YouTube. From what I understand, the show was built around Jo. Guess I'm having trouble imagining a soap with one character everything revolved around.

It’s January fool!

It mid January

OK segment on Beyond the Gates on CBS Sunday Morning. The cast looks good. However it seems to have a quasi filmed look like The City which I’m not too thrilled about.

R33 I saw that too.

Funny that P&G is making this show but when CBS News did this segment, every soap opera was mentioned *except* for GL and ATWT....sigh.

I hope for everyone's sake it's a big success. But I sorta think it's a bit too 80s for me.

Clifton Davis still looks great. I don’t dig Tamara Tunie’s white hair. Who the fuck does she think she is, Dame Judith Anderson?

Sad wig game on that clip.

Did the thread on Beyond the Gates disappear? I searched for it (was going to post the clip referenced above) and couldn’t find it.

R37 When the thread went up it was still called "The Gates" - no "Beyond."

Beyond the Gates will be DOA. No one wants a new soap opera in 2025.

The show looks cheap as balls and like some parody campy mess. Who the fuck could watch this shit? (And I am not a soap hater, I was a massive OLTL/Y&R fan as little kid and I watched both until 2012. (I have not watched a soap since)

I don't know. It looks godawful. I did love Daphne Duplaix on OLTL.

[quote]they didn’t seem especially impressed with the P&G soaps

You have to remember that the PG soaps, around this period, were considered somewhat old-fashioned and too conservative. PG soaps were still using organ music up until about 73, and they weren't as provocative as what was happening on other shows. In DL terms, the PG soaps were Barbara Bush. The non-PG soaps were Nancy Reagan.

[quote]The show looks cheap as balls and like some parody campy mess.

It looks too Tyler Perry-ish for me but the profile said there were 27 sets, which is about 20 more than other contemporary soaps. The sets themselves may look cheap, as you say, but at least they're plentiful. Some money is being spent.

[quote]It looks too Tyler Perry-ish for me

🤔

[quote]It looks too Tyler Perry-ish for me

Broad characters, writing as subtle as a sledgehammer, minimal direction beyond "you stand here and say your line." But I'll be happy to be proved wrong. I've always loved Tamara Tunie and Clifton Davis.

This won’t end well.

One last comment and then I'll shoo myself (and others!) to the Gates thread itself.

I'm happy to give it a try but my first reactions are negative, and none of that is about the race of the characters or actors. I just think that the whole hair tossing, rich vibes is stuck in the 80s.

I miss the old kitchen sink soaps. I miss the young, hungry characters who come from nothing and claw their way to the top. Years of story about that rise to the top and the fight to get there......all muffled and muted if these folks are already rich. They're serving Black Dynasty but what I was really hoping for was an American EastEnders, with generous pinches of Oakdale, Springfield and Bay City mixed in (and a little Henderson and Monticello, too).

I agree, R84.

It definitely gives iff Tyler Perry sausage factory vibes. Well, it is shot in Atlanta aka Perryland. Right to work state therefire no pesky unions to stir up shit.

Oops, I was referring to R46, haha.

Helen Wagner would not approve of this new black soap opera. She’s suck a hard candy.

^^ Vinegar flavored, like her snatch?^^

Well CZP, your TWO dui’s have not stunted your career. Keep them legs spread wide open!

R51- Why do you ALWAYS bring up Zenk's 2 DUI's??? The woman had oral cancer and went through HELL..

(I am more about hating someone like Jensen Buchanan who destroyed a man's life- and she was a very WEALTHY woman who was married to a rich agent- NO sympathy for her)

Zenk-Pinter brought up her own hell.

R52 That's the seriously mentally ill, psychotic poster we have here. One so loathed it's been banished from other soap boards.

It has certain hatreds (Zenk, Beverlee McKinsey) and certain obsessions (snatches being eaten, calling every actress a dyke, thinking that saying any given actress clogged the studio toilets is humorous) or, if you're extra lucky, it will rant at length about all of the posters it hates from some other message board and/or what those people are posting about. (None of them post here, or ever have.)

FF it and block it and enjoy the silence.

I think the sets on Beyond the Gates (from what was shown on the CBS Sunday Morning story) look really good.

Not enough vinegar.

I wonder what Lauryn Hill thought of vinegary old Helen, when she played an illiterate that Nancy Hughes was teaching to read.

I'm sure Lauryn didn't care much for Helen's perfume of mothballs and Ben Gay.

An interesting article on the Marlena Delacroix blog about Pat Falken Smith.

I can't remember if it was Pat or L Virginia Browne who had a truck crash into the Reardon boarding house, which turned it into Company.

That was Pat Falcon Smith who had the truck carrying the house crash into the boarding house. That's how we got Company.

That was her very first script, airing in late September 1982.

Lynda Hirsch article.....interesting comments from PFS in here.

PFS was only HW for 13 weeks, I think - I remember reading that before.

I want to find a copy of Ann Marcus’ book. I watched her Television Academy interview and she had a lot of juicy gossip in that. I never understood why she didn’t work more in daytime-I thought she produced solid work.

Spoiler alert: Smith's Scruples project was declined and NBC ended up picking up Santa Barbara instead.

Thanks for posting the Lydna Hirsch column.

I'm surprised Pat Falken Smith is so openly critical of Doug Marland and the Dobsons in the Lydna Hirsch interview. She doesn't name Marland but he was HW immediately before she was, so its obvious she was talking about him. And the Dobsons were there before Marland.

That said, Marland wasn't know for having the most detailed of story projects. And the Dobsons certainly weren't. So, her criticism in that respect is on target.

I specifically recall the soap press of the day announcing she was coming on as HW to replace Marland. But it sounds like she was hired to be a script writer but became HW by default since there weren't those long term story projects.

Lynda

Ah, Nancy, thanks for being ever vigilant.

We do appreciate your tireless dedication to the job. What you do is so much better than, "Oh dear."

I wonder if Doug was the "all controlling" HW that led to the attempt at decentralization? It would have either been him or the Dobsons.

Martha Byrne was at the Trump inauguration and posted pics on Facebook. Deep blue gown, looking very svelte. She has really gone all in, I guess. Poor Liz Hubbard must be turning over in her grave.

I'm surprised Trump didn't also pardon her husband.

If he didn’t get results that’s one thing. He and the Dobson’s obviously got results. GL was winning awards and high in the ratings. They needed to stop fixing what wasn’t broke.

[quote]I wonder if Doug was the "all controlling" HW that led to the attempt at decentralization? It would have either been him or the Dobsons.

Doug Marland certainly was more of a control freak than the Dobsons. Not the the Dobsons didn't like having control.

Doug is the one who quit GH when Gloria Monty tried to change Luke's rape of Laura into a seduction.

Doug is the one who quit GL when EP Allen Potter fired Jane Elliot without checking with him first.

R64 do u mean story projections?

I got off eBay Doug's 1991 ATWT long term

It was fairly detailed

Someone asked her about that in the comments, R69. She said she's "still working on it".

Pussycat!

I remember Doug's original projections from when he was just coming on board at ATWT.

Really, more than anything else, the thoughtfulness behind story considerations like shown here is what I miss.

(There are 4 parts - this is part one.)

Two.

Three

Four

PS: I believe Doug's papers are at some university....I know Irna Phillips' papers are somewhere in Wisconsin. Would love to spend a few days looking at them.

Carrie Todd was off GL in July of 1982. Pat Falken Smith came on board in September. From what I call (can’t remember the source), Marland went on autopilot after she left until he could leave the show. Maybe he didn’t do story projections in protest?

Also he had created the show for Showtime and presumably was working with Agnes on creating Loving as well.

He was a great writer, but Marland had conflict at multiple shows that led to him leaving each show in a huff (GL, GH and Loving).

He didn’t have that problem at ATWT, but I imagine if he lived he also would have quit that show in protest in the 90s when the networks started interfering and ordering a reduction in costs.

My understanding is that when P&G hired Marland to HW ATWT in 1985, the wanted him to keep more written details of his story ideas and story projections.

That came after the GL story details he left upon departure in summer 1982 were somewhat sketchy (as Pat Falken Smith references in the Hirsch article upthread). .

During his Locher Room interview, Patrick Mulcahey made reference to P&G hiring him to work with Marland on GL, so there would be someone who could follow his work if he were to drop dead. But Marland didn't have many details in writing.

I wish Mulcahey would speak sometime about his GH experience.....

Mulcahey causes problems at every job. HE is the issue, not anyone else. He’s an angry human because his daddy didn’t love him. SMH.

And you are who, exactly, r83, that you state this with such certainty?

Doug Marland was a good writer but a complicated man. He was not without his faults and demons, and like every other writer, he had some misses and made some questionable judgment calls. Many soap fans have elevated him to some god-like status, but he pulled some behind-the-scenes stunts that made it harder for those who followed him. There were only two people in daytime who couldn't get along with Agnes Nixon: Mary Stuart and Doug Marland.

Thanks to whoever posted that Pat Falken Smith article(s) Really fascinating stuff. The headwriters of these shows were paid very handsomely. And when you see what goes into (went into) keeping these shows going its kind of an amazing feat. Its crazy.

PFS never stuck around particularly long at any show it looks like.

R85 Of course, that's every creative person. I'm sure Aggie had her faults and could be a bitch sometimes too.

Sad to read in Digest (the comings and goings page) that Susan Sullivan has lung cancer and lymphoma.

Sullivan had lung cancer, the tumor was removed and she was declared cancer-free in Nov. 2023. She's now battling lymphoma. I hope she beats this, too.

I'm holding on to Lenore's scarf as we speak. 🙏🏼

I was the one at R61 who posted that article......I have access to Newspapers.com and found it there.

Here's two more.....one about Marland's hiring at ATWT (along with some soap recaps!)

Another from when both Jon Hensley and JW Shipp joined the cast. Lisa Brown is said to be "wooed" by Marland to come to ATWT.

If you remember a soap article in the newspaper (probably Lynda Hirsch or Jon Michael Reed) and you want me to try to look it up, let me know. If you have a general time frame and subject I may be able to find it.

Thanks!

LMAO I never saw this before.......how embarrassing for Our Lady of White Vinegar.

Did she do a disco album too?

A DISCO ALBUM??

I am not that tramp Colleen Zenk, I don’t cavort with queers in dark rooms with thumping beats!

“Singing “ that terrible racket tells you how far our program sank in its final years. Irna Phillips NEVER would have made me do such a thing.

[quote] I don’t cavort with queers in dark rooms with thumping beats!

I do!

Where are Douggie Marland’s toes????

😮.

Why was CBS/P&G so fixated on dumping/recasting the Bauers in 1984? Peter Simon wasn’t old. Rick was front burner and Hillary was in a new romance, too.

Y&R had successfully jettisoned the Brooks family in 1982 in favor of the Abbotts and the Newmans.

Thus CBS thought ATWT could do the same with the Hughes and GL could 86 the Bauers.

Hillary came off as a big dyke. No chem with Michael Woods.

I get doing that with the Hughes family-before Justin Deas was cast they were all middle aged or older.

But the Bauers were a key part of the teenage/20 something set-they seemed more vital in the early 80s than the Hughes family.

I think it was a delayed reaction to the whole Luke and Laura phenomenon.

P&G was playing catch up and trying to youthify its shows. Apparently CBS wanted the Bauers gone or all but gone, but Pam Long and Gail Kobe wanted to keep them on canvas. CBS insisted on Hillary Bauer (I think?) being written off, and Don Stewart got himself written off when he scoffed at being paired with a love interest over 30.

ATWT tried to youthify to a less successful degree, though Steve and Betsy accomplished a bit of that, but it wasn't until Marland, and the Lily/Holden/Dusty/Emily story (plus Paul and Andy) that it did so successfully.

SFT did a more obvious copy of Luke and Laura (Liza and Travis) plus featured Jane Krakowski (TR) and Lisa Peluso (Wendy).

And yes, the four Musketeers definitely brought GL a fresh new face and younger viewers. (Some were there during Nola/Kelly/Morgan, but the 4 Musketeers were a huge hit.)

My pendulous dong brings all the viewers to my yard.

[quote[SFT did a more obvious copy of Luke and Laura (Liza and Travis) plus featured Jane Krakowski (TR) and Lisa Peluso (Wendy).

Actually, Travis and Liza predate Luke and Laura. Travis and Liza started in 1978.

Luke and Laura didn't go on the run until summer 1980, just as Texas was debuting. Luke and Laura were dancing in Wyndham's department store on August 6, 1980 -- two days after Texas debuted.

R108 True, but the storylines changed for Travis and Liza to become more of that action-adventure feel.

And perhaps more obviously, Rod Arrants' hair suddenly was given the same fro perm that Tony Geary had on GH.

That's true r109

Search added a move action adventure feel to Travis and Liza.But all the soaps added action adventure at that point. Sitting around the kitchen table discussing your woes over coffee seemed so old fashioned after seeing Luke and Laura running from the mob.

So, Edge had Jody and Gavin go on the run. Texas had Elena and Joe go on the run. Other show went on the run and/ore added an advetenture element.

Then after the Ice Princess story in 1981, many soaps did sci-fi themed stories.

GL really dragged its feet on those kind of stories....and then when they DID do it, it was the terrible Infinity story.

Soap Opera Digest did a cover story on ATWT’s 35th anniversary, with a brief history of the show.

Vinegary old Helen brought up Chris and Nancy’s 1981 departure, and blamed it on the Dobsons. Bridget Dobson countered by saying they got pressure from CBS/P&G to do stories like Mr.Big. Dobson cited the Ice Princess and said, “that story set an unfortunate precedent, but you couldn’t argue with the ratings.”

[quote]GL really dragged its feet on those kind of stories....and then when they DID do it, it was the terrible Infinity story.

GL tried an adventure story in 1981-82. GL brought in Quinton as an Indiana Jones type character in 1981.

They had Quint and Nola go to Tanquir (where Cecile would later become Queen) in search of some ancient artifact and fight off Silas Crocker (Benjamin Hendrickson before he played Hal Munson).

[quote]perhaps more obviously, Rod Arrants' hair suddenly was given the same fro perm that Tony Geary had on GH.

Soon after he debuted in January 1981, Another World had Chris Rich (Sandy) perm his hair like Tony Geary's perm.

[quote]Cecile would later become Queen

And what a queen she was. All hail Queen Cecile!

[quote]they got pressure from CBS/P&G to do stories like Mr.Big.

If it wasn't for that Mr. Big storyline -- which was pure Dobson in every way -- we never would have gotten Wallingford on AW.

The Four Musketeers really were noticed by viewers of other shows. Word got around colleges of a hot new young group with a great storyline on Guiding Light . It did help GL already had had a young set before, which helped its reputation on college campuses as not being labeled “old” and “stodgy”.

Thank God GL held off doing Sci-Fi. My grandma, who watched GL until L&L on GH, turned GH right off and went back to GL after what she said was “that ridiculous ice princess nonsense.”

R115, Cecile, the Queen of Tanqueray!

Oh, Cecile. Is she here? In Bay City?

Oh, fuck.

You know, we often talk about the big departures from GL in 1992-93 that kinda derailed the show.....but I think the loss of Melina Kanakaredes also had an impact.

She had a special quality that really added something - and one she's never really duplicated elsewhere. Her replacement was a bit of a drudge, sorry to say.

R120 Sooooo true. She was a stah!

I'd forgot about Melina leaving, too. Her replacements were awful. How do you go from movie star gorgeous Melina ( there's a reason she made it big) to the dull, drab recasts and think that's ok?

Counting radio, GL's 88th anniversary is tomorrow.

Craig really had those kissable lips.....

Colleen's last day at YR was today......

And her final episode was beyond awful, R125. Poor CZP.

“Tanquir” was pronounced “Tan-QUEER” by the GL cast.

CZP has tons of wrinkles on her face. All those years of drinking……..

No P! Just CZ.

Don't want to sully our waters with YR chat but it seems odd they'd have a story culminate like that when it's not even sweeps month yet.

(Unless they're doing what they did with Kimberlin Brown last year and bringing her right back.)

She ain’t coming back. Jordan croaked right in front of the Newmans, with Victor sitting three feet away.

Anybody know where I could find Kristi Ferrell’s first GL episode? Where Roxie’s riding the bucking bronco?

She learned to come back from the dead from the best.

Hilarious post from the GH thread - had to repeat it here....

Ellen Weston, future GL head writer, wrote Disappearance of Vonnie.

Zimmer told Weston she was in the movie; Ellen said "Oh. Who'd you play?"

Zimmer: "Vonnie."

Hilarious 😶

John Conboy and Ellen Weston were the worst thing to ever happen to GL.

Thank you, R133.

I cried every day at Peapack because I knew I was in over my head.

Victoria Wyndham was offered a part on Days of Our Lives in 2001. She was meant to appear as Lady Sheraton for a week of shows during Greta's coronation, which included cameos from many other daytime stars.

Victoria who lived in LA at the time refused to film as most of the name participants had only one or two short lines of dialogue.

Soapcentral still has the original article and VW's response on its site.

I would have LOVED to have seen VW play Lady Sheraton. Lesley-Anne Down played her. I remember she was only on for a few minutes and there were a few lines but it was a showy role. It might have gone somewhere else if Victoria had played it.

All of the women who played Vicky/Marley had or have psychological issues.

Anne Heche (Celestia and wild car rides), Jensen Buchanan (booze), Ellen Wheeler (a basketcase who made Guiding Light look like public access and then ran off to work for Glenn Beck).

I blame Donna Love.

[quote]I blame Donna Love.

Which Donna?

Both

My fabulousness had no part in those issues.

Perhaps Brand New Sexy Donna was a bad influence....

I remember the VW Days kerfuffle.

She expected to have at least some lines, but didn't want to be a glorified extra. (Understandably.)

I thought we could use this right now. Starts at 4:40

I blame Bridget!

Not a big part for VW, but more than a glorified extra. Maybe she objected to the violence? The Coronation ends in a bloody massacre with Lady Sheraton running from bullets with champagne glass in hand.

R142 I look fabulous there, as always!

I love the way Donna checks herself in the mirror. That's our Donna!

My ass smells like a Carolina pine forest!

Thank you for the update, Cecile.

Cecile was a dePoulignac, she wouldn't be that crass. That sounds like Alma Rudder.

Fuck all of you, it was me.

What a kick in the cunt! Hah!

So Rachel didn’t know that Ada was a big ole lezzy? Yeah, Ada married a few times but really? No sexual chemistry with Gil but Ada sure liked the gals!

ugh

If anyone would mix-up Pine-Sol cleaner with her douche, it would be Ada.

Helen used undiluted vinegar with a dusting of 20 mule team borax

I just caught a bit of the Justin Deas interview on the Locher Room.

Um.....I hope that's just him happily aging and not that he's unwell but I'm not sure.

r155- He just has very bad under eye bags- He is now pretty bald too- I am not getting disease vibes at all...

R156 I didn't want to be disrespectful - I know he's not in the public eye. But that was a big change

Did he say anything interesting?

Since his days on Santa Barbara , Justin Deas has always looked to me like he just emerged from his house after a 3 day bender.

R158 I haven't really listened yet. Those Locher Room things are usually 45 minutes of filler and about 5-10 minutes of actual content of interest.

Justin said that when he and his wife moved from a large house into a smaller apartment, he got rid of five of his six Daytime Emmys. He kept the first one he got -- for ATWT -- but gave the other five to the movers.

Damn, I know quite a few actors who love to have one of those Emmys that Justin doesn't give a shit about. Most notably the actors who lost those Emmys to Justin.

If you stayed to the very end of the Locher Room interview with Justin Deas, he revealed some shocking and upsetting health news -- Justin is battling stage 4 lung cancer.

R162 Oh no! I did not know or hear that. Very sad. So he is sick.......ugh, that's terrible.

R161 Deas brought an energy to his roles that I hadn't seen before on soaps.

But...after seeing Tom and then seeing Keith and then enduring Buzz, I saw that the actor pretty much did the same manic over the top thing in all his roles. So incredulous over every development.

I'm being harsh; all the great have a bag of tricks.

Most of those Emmys where won when Jill Phelps was his EP, no?

She had a way of getting wins. If not ratings.

Justin talked about someone delivering a long speech (was it Ross giving a courtroom monologue?)

Alan Locher: I bet you're glad you never played a lawyer!

(Justin played two: Tom Hughes and Keith on SB)

Jiminy Glick does more research on his interview subjects than Alan Locher.

I thought Justin was so fucking adorable as Keith on Santa Barbara.

No love for Bucky r164?

Admittedly I only saw Ryan’s hope reruns on soapnet.

Deas’ wins for Santa Barbara, and his first win for Guiding Light, were under Jill Farren Phelps EP tenures at both shows.

I don't dislike Jill. I hate the game.

If actors throughout the industry watched soaps during the year, the ballot would be totally different.

Poor Justin’s on borrowed time.

If the winners were chosen from a blue ribbon panel of experts many would be Emmy-less, but not many GLers. They’d have more including Zimmer.

Zimmer would've won in 98 had it not been for Cynthia Watros's performance. Wow.

[quote]Zimmer would've won in 98 had it not been for Cynthia Watros's performance. Wow.

Poor Reva. Victimized once again by Annie Dutton.

I think Zeman could have won in 1998. She was playing out the Carly screwed my husband stuff. Jackie was beloved. She's greatly responsible for GH's rise in 1978.

I think it's great that the industry gathers for one night. But I can't believe so many actors were never acknowledged for their work: McKinsey, Wyndham, Grant Aleksander, Maureen Garrett, Mary Kay Adams

[quote]I think Zeman could have won in 1998. She was playing out the Carly screwed my husband stuff. Jackie was beloved. She's greatly responsible for GH's rise in 1978.

Eileen Davidson was playing five characters on Days. Either she or Cynthia Watros were expected to be the winners that year.

[quote]I think it's great that the industry gathers for one night. But I can't believe so many actors were never acknowledged for their work: McKinsey, Wyndham, Grant Aleksander, Maureen Garrett, Mary Kay Adams

We should buy Justin Deas' five discarded Emmys and distribute them to deserving people. So, everyone come up with a list of five deserving Emmy-less daytime actors who should have one of those Emmys.

The Daytime Emmy process has always been flawed, and all the attempts to make it better have failed. Some actors are over-rewarded, some are under-rewarded, and some have never been rewarded at all. Personally, I think that once you've won once for a role, you should not be allowed to submit yourself again for that same role, but what do I know?

Kathy Hays Denise Alexander Beverlee McKinsey Marie Masters Anna Stuart

R178, I go back and forth on that. I mean if you won and the next year you know it out of the park again?

I can see Jane Elliot winning for her work in both 2024 and already 2025.

I'd give an Emmy to Beverlee McKinsey, Victoria Wyndham, Grant Aleksander, Kate Collins and Richard Bekins.

Can we go and raid Tony Geary and David Canary of some of their Emmys and distribute them to the Emmyless?. They have so many, they'd never notice they were gone.

We could stop by the Third Victoria's house along the way and grab a few of hers as well.

Almost all the people mentioned in these last few posts are phenomenal, but they all were likely too understated for the Emmy voting committees, who always seem to reward HAM!

R182 Zimmer's 90 win for her molestation confrontation was very understated and devastating. She was phenomenal beyond words. It's uncomfortable to watch, just as her heartache at the fountain in 84.

I think a lot of acting anppears over-the-top or hammy when viewed out of context.

R183, I forget his name but that actor who played the molester was very good. I believe he was a writer, too, for P&G soaps; he had af few roles on ATWT.

R183

I was a little kid OLTL/Y&R watcher and remember Kim's Emmy clip to this day-

And you held me UP so my feet didn't even touch the floor-

B-12. B12 on the jukebox

You know that I still can't listen to Paper Dowel?

(was it Paper Dowel? WTF - was that the song name?)

From afar I was obsessed with Elizabeth Hubbard based on her Emmy clips alone, but felt Kim's was immediately moving. That is talent!

"Paper Doll"

AHHHHH!!! Paper Doll!!!!

"B12"

I'm surprised the B12 scene isn't cited more often when people discuss Kim's scenes.

The fountain scene is amazing, of course.

R190 I think because the fountain scene is so emotional and gut wrenching and perfectly written. It’s a powerhouse. You can’t take your eyes off of the screen. The B12 scene is all those, but quiet. It takes time to realize what she’s actually saying.

Kim deserved every Emmy she won. Plus a few she didn’t win.

Does anyone have a link to the B12 scene?

R193 I've never seen one, though a snippet of it is in that year's Emmy award broadcast.

I was at a rival show event that day way back in 1990. We were supposed to be rooting for someone else out of loyalty.

I knew once that scene was shown (if it was her submission -- clips shown on air aren't always what the actors submitted) -- that she would win.

Inside I was cheering up and down.

^

Zimmer, of course

R195 I think everyone knew she'd win when that clip was shown. Over and out. Slam dunk. No contest.

you'd be amazed how myopic people in the industry can be.

Stafford praised Finola Hughes last year, which I give her credit for. Finola's reel was amazing.

Most actors and show go to the DT Emmys having little to no exposure to shows other than their own.

They all must hate that GH (ironically) wins so much. The last 12 years or so, I think they've won like HALF of the supporting actor and actress statues.

This year's DT Emmys has no home, which is why they were moved to October. I think Kelly Clarkson getting up on stage and giving a shout out to GH was the final nail in the coffin. Why should CBS air the GH awards?

Since CBS airs two of the four surviving soaps, soon to be three of the five surviving soaps, it does make sense for the network to air the Daytime Emmy show.

Not sure why ABC doesn't pick the show up since it GH does tend to receive a lot of statues.

The Gates isn't eligible for DT Emmys till next year; and the horse will be out of the barn in October in terms of promotion.

You can ask any daytime actor who they like on another show and only a handful have a general understanding of who's good and who isn't in the community.

Why even bother with 4 shows? It’s a joke.

[quote]Why even bother with 4 shows? It’s a joke.

They've been doing the daytime Emmys with four soaps for 12 years now.

The Daytime Emmys honor more than just soap operas.

R202 I get that. It skews all the data now that there are only 4. “Y&R has won the most Emmys for Best Show” or whatever is very deceptive when there are only 4 instead of 8, 9, 10. It has lost its luster for soaps.

R203 You're not wrong, but the Daytime Emmys lost what little luster they had years ago.

[quote] Since CBS airs two of the four surviving soaps ....

"The Bay" is now included with the "regular" soaps by NATAS, and because Amazon Freevee is an American production company, "Neighbours" is another eligible surviving soap. (btw - The episodes "Neighbours" produced for its big "Death in the Outback" week were fantastic and should secure the soap another nomination for Outstanding Drama Series.)

There's no way that the Bay which does what? 20? 30 max? episodes a year should be in with the other four shows.

I'm not sure many Neighbors does.

I feel bad but I still haven't seen any of the web soaps. Not even Venice and that one looks really good.

Anyone can win an emmy now with so little competition. The emmys are a joke and don’t mean anything.

A Daytime Emmy isn't worth as much since I've left the industry.

I've only got three so far

It was a big deal when Zimmer got 3 in a short period of time with a lot of competition. And she didn’t have an EP helping her win. Now?

Some of you may have read the recent bit about Meryl Streep escaping the fires. Specifically "my aunt Meryl escaped."

The author was Abe Streep, and he is, of course, Maeve Kinkead's son.

I wish Maeve could have gotten Meryl to do a cameo on GL. I think Meryl would've in a heartbeat.

Oh please. Soaps are way beneath Meryl.

R213 I love your dedication to that idea.

R206 Neighbours does 200 episodes a year. (Four episodes per week.)

[quote] I wish Maeve could have gotten Meryl to do a cameo on GL. I think Meryl would've in a heartbeat.

Meryl Streep IS NuHope Bauer!

[quote]Meryl Streep IS NuHope Bauer!

Aunt Meta Bauer is probably more appropriate.

Meryl would have. I know it.

Who knows? Maybe it will turn out that Meryl did one and only one episode of Search For Tomorrow.

I guess she never found tomorrow…

There's only one star of Search, and it's me, baby!

Roughly 50 years ago, an ingenue fled the CBS Broadcast Center in tears, vowing to never again talk about her experience as an extra with Mary Stuart.

Has there been a Locher tribute for Mary ?

Would probably be a bit of a chore to get people who LIKED her to participate.

Was she a bitch?

The GLers probably liked her.

I still laugh when I think of all those years she worked at Search and then GL, when she finally passed, the GL people couldn’t even bother to spell her name right! lol Mary “Stewart”. lolololololololol

R224 It would probably consist of one hour of Nelson Aspen gushing about his mentor with the last 15 minutes being him performing a medley of songs from her two albums.

R227 BWAH! Yes, that, exactly. 😄

Oh gawd. Nelson Aspen. I forgot about him. Annoying as fuck.

[quote] Was she a bitch? The GLers probably liked her.

She was probably Beth Ehlers' bitch mentor

Nelson Aspen must have freaked out when the saw the Mary Stewart memoriam.

Bitch!

I still curse Goutman because he couldn’t be bothered to tape a “Goodnight dear” voiceover from the vinegary Helen Wagner before she croaked.

Imagine spending thousands on a cruise and finding out Nelson Aspen is going to be your Entertainment Host!

I hope Nelson talks about his great friend Mary Stewart!

R234 Eeeek!

Eileen Davidson and Christel Khalil appeared non-plussed when they accepted their Emmys; I think those were HLN years when there were only four soaps; maybe the online versions of AMC and OLTL were around.

it was such a freaking Golden Age with Emmy week in New York. The Bells had a big gala the day before at the Rainbow Room.

There were parties all week. The dinner was at a hotel before and then everyone would walk over to Radio City. Fans lined the sidewalks hoping to catch a glimpse.

I blame shitting writing that did them in.

That dumb stupid Cuntness Dumbassatella is causing issues again at SON. She got the edit function shut down and now almost had the entire board shit down. Stupid useless cunt!

teh Bells! *shakes fist at sky*

Below are a list of notable P&G headwriters.

What is your favorite storyline of theirs;

Doug Marlamd

The Dobsons

Harding Lemay

Richard Culliton

Millie Taggart

Tom King

Henry Slesar

Pan Long

Richard Culliton

Tom King

Were Tom King and Richard Culliton both hacks?

Or they probably had one great run at some show, and then the rest were shit?

Daytime had a lot of that shit- or writers that went from show to. show and always sucked- like those Corrigans-

Doug Marland - the "Julie is pregnant with Holden's baby, but puts Andy's name on the birth certificate" storyline; drunk Andy hits Lien

Harding Lemay - the 1988 storyline in which Josie worries she's not good enough for Matthew. I only started watching that summer, and it would be some time before I understood the whole Cory/Frame subtext and backstory.

Pam Long - when Dylan came to Springfield. I was new to soaps and this was my first "heretofore unknown son or daughter of main character moves to town" storyline.

Richard Culliton - Lisa v. John when Eduardo dies on the operating table, esp. the days when Andy had to testify against his father.

All the rest are before my time.

I am one of the Marland fans. I don't think he was God and he certainly had long lulls of dullness at ATWT but I did love his work.

Nola and later Nola/Quint was something very special.

At ATWT I started watching just as the Iva/Lucinda/Lily story was gathering momentum, along with Holden/Lily/Dusty/Emily. The whole show was just on fire for a few years there. Every month or so something exciting happened. James returns! Margo loses the baby! Beatrice is Duncan's daughter, not his sister!

Like GL in 1993 ATWT did take a bit of a beating for a year or two when Julianne Moore, Hillary Bailey Smith, and Martha Byrne all left at about the same time. It got its momentum back eventually, though.

Pam Long- 4 Musketeers/ Beth’s return from the dead. The attention to detail was everything we’d ever want or hope for.

Hogan Sheffield had a few good years.

R244 Especially considering Pam didn’t write Beth’s “death”.

Hogan Sheffer, not Sheffield.

Pam created three really great female characters - Reva, Alexandra and Harley - put the 4 Musketeers together, and was apparently the catalyst behind bringing back Maureen Garrett, which eventually led to Roger's return.

My Opinions:

Doug Marland - Doug's best writing was on General Hospital. It sort of made up for the disaster he created on The Doctors, but everything after GH (his PG years) was wash, rinse, repeat. Just my opinion, I don't expect anyone else to agree with me.

The Dobsons - Rita.

Harding Lemay - I used to think that Lemay did no wrong, but he made some missteps during his first run that unbalanced the show, and, quite frankly, sometimes you need a little bit of a plot. He would not have been nearly as successful if it had not been for the foundation created by Agnes Nixon and sustained by Robert Cenedella. That being said, the Iris, Rachel, Mac triangle was good stuff and his second run - even when it was just his bible - was some of the best soap opera I've ever seen.

Richard Culliton - Not enough information to comment

Millie Taggart - Not enough information to comment

Tom King - Harry Must Die

Henry Slesar - Mansion of the Damned, The Murder of Margo Dorn, Draper Scott/Emily Michaels, Serena/Josie.

Pan Long - The last few months of Texas.

I don't know about Millee's other stints (I know she was on Locher to talk about them.....I think) but she really had GL on an even keel.....right before she and Paul got fired for the destructo team of John Conboy and Ellen "Not An Original Idea in My Head" Weston.

This thread smells like old people.

I recently bought an old copy of Christopher Schemering’s “Soap Opera Encyclopedia” off of eBay. I had lost my copy from the 80s. It’s such a well researched book with great facts. It made me want to learn about Jingles the Clown from “Somerset” and Marland’s cable soap “A New Day in Eden”.

Did anybody know Schemering? He apparently died quite young of AIDS and there is almost no information about him online.

r249

Agreed about your assessment of Marland but they were excellent repeats though.. Bill Bell had 3-5 stories that he recycled as well

I was a kid when Lemay first wrote AW, I remember a little bit of specific stories but just really remember more how much it seemed like theater or a play.

His return was amazing, but I can't believe it was so short.

I remember he did consulting for ATWT or GL and I thought he had some role in the shaping of Carly after Marland died, but I could be wrong. It was some character or another.

I loved Another World during Lemay’s second run, and Donna Swajeski’s early tenure, when she was using his Bible (although she deserves more credit than she gets, I am sure a lot of stories bad to be revised/scrapped after Doug Watson died).

I thought it was great until Anne Heche left and Paulina was recast.

But the critics at the time, from what I recall, were lukewarm on the show.

R252 Schemering’s book had SO many errors. He said that GL was #1 in 1984. false. He was a queen. Dan Kroll would be jealous!!!

R252m Schemering did not die of AIDS.

R256, I believe GL was briefly No. 1 in 1984. It was either in the spring or in the summer when ABC took time off with soaps to air the Olympics.

What were Marland’s big GH stories? The mystery of the left handed boy? Luke and Laura’s rape?

What did Schemering die from? He was young.

I found this website after reading r257’s comment.

If this is correct, GL did very well in the Spring/Summer of 1984, hitting 2nd place more than once, but it never got to 1st place.

The fact that GL could be that high in the ratings despite having the sane time slot as GH in most markets is pretty amazing.

GH was a hit with teens and 20-somethings. The older ladies and stay-at-home moms needed a place to land and chose Guiding Light.

In 1984 ABC lost Jenny, Opal and Liza on AMC; and Luke, Laura and Lesley on GH. Additionally, they aired the Summer Olympics. That all probably helped GL and Y&R (which also surged in 1984).

For fuck’s sake. GL beat GH for 3 weeks in 1984. That’s it.

R262 We have an ABC soap troll in here. False, bitch. GL was attracting a very healthy young demo.

GL hit #1 for 3 weeks head to head with GH. The Olympics didn’t air in the daytime. The soaps still aired. R263 You can make excuses all you want but GL beat GH head to head,

[quote]What were Marland’s big GH stories? The mystery of the left handed boy? Luke and Laura’s rape?

Marland left over Gloria Monty's interference in the Luke raping Laura storyline. Gloria tried to frame it as a seduction.

Marland was not involved in anything that happened after that. He was at GL by the time Luke and Laura went on the run and later saved the world from the Cassadines and the Ice Princess,

Saved the world from the Ice Princess- 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I’d have stopped watching. Ridiculous.

I just did some searching on Schemering.

It's not a mean or unreasonable assumption that he may have died of HIV/AIDS, considering Schemering was 39 when he died in 1990. But none of the articles about his passing listed a cause of death.

[quote] It’s such a well researched book with great facts.

Schemering's book is vast and a lot of it is well done but it does have a fair number of errors, as well.

With all due respect to Schemering. It's hard to do a soap book without errors.

My first tv memory was watching Sven terrorize Mac & Rachel on Another World. He killed and chopped up their butler! Then he kidnapped Rachel. Sven had Rachel tied up for weeks it seemed. How did she go to the bathroom? Good storyline - it wasn’t like a soap opera but more like some psycho thriller. Sven was scary and I had nightmares for a good while.

Reportedly, Harding Lemay hated the Sven storyline, but P&G and/or NBC made him do it.

The Sven storyline was not character oriented, but rather plot oriented according to Lemay.

R271, Rocky was the Cory chauffeur, not the butler.

The Sven/Helga/Regine (pronounced Reh-GEE-nuh, with a hard G) storyline was hardcore melodrama which Lemay hated but was also meant to be reminiscent of the late19th century/early 20th century Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen. And that was fine with Lemay. I know this because he told me himself when I was interviewed to be his personal assistant (he never hired anyone). He also told me he planned a huge umbrella storyline with Jason Frame running a black market baby trafficking ring out of the Frame farm but P&G nixed it.

R261, I agree.

It does make sense though. It was Marland's writing that skyrocketed the show from like No. 10 to No. 2; he left to go to GL and created Nola (akin to Bobbie Spencer), the Jennifer Richards murder trial (akin to Lesley going on trial for killing David Hamilton). he played Mike Bauer v. Alan Spaulding. Finished up Roger's run (till Pam brought him back).

No, Rocky was the stableman in charge of the horses. Brooks was the Cory chauffeur.

Jingles the Clown sounds like a fucking great storyline. That’s the type of story they should have done more of instead of ice princesses, eterna, clones.

Guiding Light was just very consistent quality wise it held its own. From the link above, which is a spreadsheet and can be manipulated, it didn’t get to #1, but it beat General Hospital (and all ABC shows) for several weeks behind Young And The Restless. It was widely reported in the press Guiding Light DID hit #1 in the ratings in the summer of 1984. Even if it didn’t, it had beat General Hospital in the ratings for 3 to 4 weeks during the latter’s heyday.

Oh and ABC’s AMC, OLTL, and GH were NOT preempted by the Olympics according to the link. It was only the soaps that aired earlier in the day.

According to r260 Guiding Light and General Hospital had 65-73% of all TVs watching them for years. That’s the highest of any hour for soaps. By quite a bit.

Though I never met Christopher Schemering, I got to look at the room in which he died. A friend of mine lived in the same gay recovery house in Washington DC. I'd often wished I had the nerve to have called him on the phone (no cellphones yet). My friend didn't say he committed suicide, but we really didn't talk about the "how" of it.

As I recall, ABC aired 40 minute episodes of AMC, OLTL and GH during the 1984 Olymics. ABC didn’t want to risk losing viewers by preempting soaps for those two weeks, during which time a new soap was debuting - Santa Barbara.

I apologize, i am the one who posted about ABC and the Olympics-I remembered the soaps not airing and that was incorrect. I am also the one that posted the chart at r260.

I am not an apologist for the ABC soaps, there was always a broad, cartoonish I didn’t like.

I do think it’s remarkable how close GL came to toppling GH in 1984, and how the interference of CBS/P&G led to the show slipping within 6 months to the lower-middle of the ratings pack.

I smell a rat.

Even if they were preempted by the Olympics according, those were not the weeks Guiding Light beat General Hospital, and all ABC soaps, so if you r281 posted that link you were not very good at interpreting what you posted. I think you thought no one would do a deep dive into what you linked. I did. And you were wrong.

I am not r281 but no need to be quite so dramatic here. We’re all guilty of occasional hyperbole.

R273 and R275, I came here to say that Rocky was the stableman; Brooks was the butler.

HOW OLD ARE WE? LOL

R268, no, it's not mean to assume Schemering died of AIDS. It was the 80s. EVERYONE died of AIDS.

I had assumed Christopher Jarrett from EDGE had died of AIDS as three co-stars did. Many of his scene partners.

The man was gorgeous; those ARMS! He kind of fell off the face of the earth, too, which contributed to my mistaken belief.

A photo surfaced of him a while back; he looked great but that black hair was all white; still handsome though.

Info on the summer daytime ratings;

I believe GL beat GH on merit; not because of the Olympics

ABC pre-empted most of its daytime schedule to cover the Olympics from Los Angeles, but it ran AMC, OLTL, and GH, for 40 minutes each to cover a two-hour time period for two weeks; for the week of July 30th, the trio aired at 2pm ET, 1pm CT, 12pm MT (MDT), 11am Arizona (MST), and 11am PT, and for the week of August 6th, the trio aired at 1pm ET, 12pm CT, 11am MT (MDT), 10am Arizona (MST), and 10am PT.

I know Santa Barbara was launched at this time but the ratings were meh at best.

The only soap expert is her Cuntiness Dumbatella over at SON! She inserts herself into every conversation. Such a CUNT! Knows everything and always spews wrong info. Dumb bitch. Especially when it comes to P&G soaps.

Anytime someone tries to put down P&G soaps by saying only old people watched them, while the ABC soaps had all the youth watching, is a troll. Who cares? It was certainly not true, though for a time the ABC soaps were very popular with the college set. GL, in particular, clawed back some of the youth set starting in '80. Once VCRs became popular, many watched both GH and GL, or ATWT and OLTL.

I wonder how World Turns wouldve held up against GH had P&G switched time slots? IMO Guiding Light would've flourished even more. I'm not sure World Turns would've held up as well as Guiding Light did.

First of all, I was not saying that to be a troll or to hurt anyone's feelings. I am sure plenty of young people watched Guiding Light at the time. My point was that GL maintained a steady audience during the height of GH; they didn't lose their traditional audience the way some soaps did.

GH attracted younger people and a newer, younger audience; that isn't something pulled out of thin air. There is data and lots of copy to back it up. Then NBC moved AW out of its traditional 3:00 EST timeslot, and that audience may have gone over to GL instead of sticking around for Texas or Santa Barbara.

There was no shade being thrown at GL. I find it hilarious that 40-plus years later, people have gotten bent out of shade about an innocent comment that GH's audience was younger. Guess what, we're all old now - so who gives a fuck what demographic watched which shows, most of which are long canceled.

R288 Well, it's used to put down P&G soaps all the time by ABC loons. No one denies they, at a point, were way more popular with the college set.

But, you, or someone, was making pains to justify why GL beat GH in '84 even wrongly blaming the Olympics, and seemed very defensive about it.

I didn't mean to 'blame' the Olympics for GL's success; just pointing out that may have been a factor.

The reality is that GH ran for years on the success that Marland and Pat Falken Smith created.

Viewers stuck with GH for years based on their love of the characters.

The writing post Marland and Falken Smith wasn't so great. The Robert/Holly romance was very good.

I credit Marland with the success of GH; GL skyrocketed under his tenure, and it was opposite GH.

He must have felt great in 1982 when GL won best show and writing over GH, which probably submitted the wedding or Ice Princess stuff.

I 100% think GL beat GH on merit- No doubt. Upon rewatch there are 3 80's shows that really vibe for me upon rewatch on YT- GL, OLTL(well at least 85-89), and Y&R. For some reason I am also loving any 1970's ATWT and AW- but I just cannot get into the 80's stuff, at all.

And at that time-At least 83-84, OLTL was in the utter doldrums prior to Paul Rauch- and didn't GH have massive declines too? I was never an AMC fan I am unsure how AMC did in 83-84- would not surprise me if it was #2 as I know 82-84 was some prime AMC- Jenny/Greg/Jesshie/Angie/Opal.

Basically anything that I have seen from GL 1982 and after is REALLY easy to get into. And this was a show I never watched, minus some summer episodes 88-89..

I think its amazing that GL beat a sensation like GH. And in that thread about the best soap of all time- I felt GL deserved that title too.

GL must have taken a quick dive after 1984 for a short while. In the Soap Opera Digest year-end wrap up for 1986, GL was trashed for the 1920s storyline (?) and Lujack’s departure and Beth hooking back up with Phillip so quickly after Lujack left.

Wasn’t 1986 also the year when the wrong writing team was announced as the winners at the Daytime Emmys? YR “won” at the ceremony but it was learned it was supposed to go to GL. SOD also had an issue with that saying it should have gone to YR to start with as GLs writing at that point was terrible. Pam Long came back not too long after.

Yes, GL beat GH in the ratings for 3 weeks in 1984. But Queen Jason47 also has the demos for those 3 weeks and GH killed the granny soap GL in the demos. They weren’t even close. The grannys were watching GL. GH was making the money.

If the clip shown at the show in 1986 was the one GL submitted, it deserved to win.

The stories were the verdict in Lujack's trial; Beth and Lujack torn apart. India put Beth down after her tirade by saying she'd seen more compelling drama on Perry Mason reruns.

Meanwhile, the Lewises met with Kyle Sampson, who'd taken control of Lewis Oil. Billy blew the whole company on one deal. (Reva blasted him for that.) A glass of spilled red wine prompted Vanessa to recall she was behind the wheel of the car that hit Reva, causing her miscarriage.

Billy: I did not think Vanessa could handle the truth! Reva: "Well that's for sure. Look at her. She's a mess."

The other story had Rick arguing with a call girl or waitress in Alaska over a missing Roxie.

All I remember about Y&R is that Jack was blackmailing Ashley; tell dad you're going back to the lab and I'll run Jabot or I'll tell him that you're not his daughter. Terry was at Jack's most diabolical.

Shame that they killed John before he learned the truth.

I don't know how I know all this.

Of course, Marland, also nominated, could have (should have?) won for ATWT.

His episode was a scene with Margo v. Barbara over Tom; Casey enters, Barbara makes a crack about Margo and Casey shacking up and Margo slaps Barbara.

Classic.

[quote]But, you, or someone, was making pains to justify why GL beat GH in '84 even wrongly blaming the Olympics, and seemed very defensive about it.

That wasn't me. In 1984, I was 13 and watching Santa Barbara - a show no one was watching. However, my aunt, who was an NBC fan, switched to Guiding Light because she was still mad, two years later, that NBC had canceled Texas and The Doctors. She wouldn't give up Days and AW but vowed never to watch another new show on NBC, even though she did watch Passions years later.

1986 was a transition year. Judi was off filming a movie, and they knew she was leaving so they rightfully rushed her and Philip back together. The 20s storyline was Phillip's book, correct? It was dreadfully boring from what I've heard. The Reva/ Cain story flopped. GL got better by summer, but was not great. It floundered for another year until Pam came back as HW. Its ratings took a rightful hit and it took a long time to recover even though it was superb from 88- 93. 91/92 is when its ratings skyrocketed.

ABC was HUGE in college dorms and rec halls, which weren’t measured by Nielsen back in the day. The old ladies, which Nielsen measured, watched their stories alone while college students watched ABC with hundreds of other students on college campuses.

It's shocking the excellent Sonni/ Solita story didn't draw in more viewers, though it likely helped Guiding Light maintain its audience. But, if you didn't see it from the start it was a hard storyline to jump into. You really had to know the backstory, twists and turns to really appreciate how fab it was. And Damn damn damn it was great.

R249, I do agree with you about Marland and GH. They were his best.

Bobbie Spencer. Tracy Quartermaine. Edward and Lila. Lassa Fever. Annie Logan. The search for Steven Lars. The David Hamilton murder trial. Lesley begging Rick not to walk out the door of the witness room after she's convicted. (He figured out it was Laura who'd done the deed.

The Lesley/Rick/Monica/Alan quadrangle. The young love of Scotty and Laura.

He patterned so much of his other characters on these GH characters/stories.

Of course, Nola Reardon was fantastic; I personally loved Meg Snyder; Casey and Lyla. So much of ATWT.

But, yes, if I could have one to watch for the rest of my life on DVD or streaming, it'd be Gh. Sadly, I think it's all been lost to the ages.

Santa Barbara debuted on July 30, 1984 at the start of the Olympics.

To counter program that, GL sent Reva into the fountain to proclaim herself the Slut of Springfield on July 31, 1984.

Meanwhile, to keep viewers around during the shortened episodes that aired the Olympics, AMC killed Jenny Gardner in the jet ski explosion.

Girls! Girls! Sonni! Solita! You're both pretty!

Can we move on from the ABC/GL/Olympic argument, please? That horse is dead, or at the very least in hospice care being given last rites.

That huge Dyke Darcy holding Beth hostage until she licked her clit shot Gail Kobe’s twat into the stratosphere!

R299!!! Thats why I tuned in as a 9 year old in 88!!! Sonnie and Solita.. I loved anything involving twins- I could not really understand it, but I loved it! Also, that summer, Roger was in a cave with a pineapple mask on, and for some reason that got me into it too. (This must have been Michael Zaslow returning to the show. The summer had OLTL and GL at the height of their addictiveness. I did not really watch GL after that summer, until Youtube.

NO ONE could understand anything about the Sonni and Solita story but it was still fun!

I bookmarked this years ago to try to help me remember what the story was about.

I started watching GL regularly during the Sonni/Solita storyline as well. I remember that it went on forever. Did they keep it going so long so Long could come back after the strike and finish it?

[quote]NO ONE could understand anything about the Sonni and Solita story but it was still fun!

So true. And I'm finally glad someone had the courage to say that I thought the whole time I was watching it.

It was confusing as hell, but somehow that confusion is what pulled you in trying to figure out what was going on. Thus the desire to make sense of it made the storyline addictive.

Kimmy Zimmer HATED Michelle Forbes.

Naw, you could make sense of Sonni/Solita, but the twists and turns were fun as hell. It was convoluted in the best way.

Kim didn’t hate Michelle, but they weren’t friends. Both powerhouse actresses going at each other was thrilling.

Guiding Light and Reva Shayne mention on tonight’s episode of The Neighborhood! Go Reva!

R310 what did they say?

R260 I was honestly shocked by the demo numbers (and HH) for GL. GL had a really good 1997 to 2002 run. Demo wise- GL was smack in the middle most of the time. Out of 11 shows, it was usually 6. It almost always beat ATWT, even though it was almost always higher in HH ratings. As far as HH, it beat OLTL for years, beat AMC a lot, and occasionally tied GH and DAYS. It beat GH on several occasions. It hit #4 a few times, and was #5 or #6 quite a few times. Most of those years, #3-#8 were super tight. They all tied often.

I hate to say it, but it looked like the mob and San Christohell were, gulp, actually popular. The ratings showed this. Hell, if I’d known that I would have had them keep that shit around, if we got better for the other characters.

At least in 2002, the bottom dropped out and it was stuck at #8 and sometimes LAST in demos. I saw some 2006 and 2007 numbers which weren’t as bad as I thought they’d be. Jonathan/Tammy? I didn’t look at 2003-2005.

These numbers I believe because they are photocopies from a soap magazine.

What were some of these soap stars making yearly? Like the big “stars” - Kim Zimmer, Beverley McKinsey (on Another World and GL), Eileen Fulton, Dee Hall and Erika Slezak?

GL was always the old lady gramma soap. Grammy watched her ‘stories’.

R313- At that level it was 500K-750K for people like Slezak/Dee/Zimmer- Dee was probably closer to 1 million- Braeden/MTS/Hubbard...

Fulton? Please- she was not in that realm,

That nut Gregorziak must still be here.

R306 Long kept it going for quite awhile, too, and it worked. It was one of the few times a messy writer’s strike made a story better. I have no idea what Pam had in mind, but she took what they did and ran with it.

I wonder why they never recast Sonni (or was it SOLITA?) After Annie would have been a great time.

Even if the ratings were good during San Cristobel and the Santos reign, someone should have still stepped in and fixed it.

There was no long-term value in either of those stories.

The problem is the producers or networks hire people to write the show who don't know the show FOR people who know and love the show intimately.

I'm sure Zimmer didn't like the air time Forbes was getting but hating the actress? Hopefully not.

Here's a clip in which Forbes breaks character; Zimmer must have waited for the take to spin the line that begins "Why you...must be..."

The scene starts around :25 and the break happens at about :46.

Eileen Fulton plugged up the toilet. Goutman made her pay the plumbers bill.

It's insane to think that Forbes was 22 years old when she started playing Sonni. She really held her own with Zimmer, Newman and Beverlee McKinsey.

Reminder that viewership in the 80s was solely measured upon self reported diaries.

It isn’t the kind of data we’re used to in 2025. Sure it’s directional but so much could be influenced by perception and peer pressure.

Grain or even a small shaker of salt…

I wonder what it was like for long time viewers when the P&G soaps swapped their sedate openings for flashier (for the time) intros cut a 1981. Imagine being used ti the comforting “As the World Turns” original theme for 25 years and suddenly… bang.

I used to watch “Capitol” not because it was good, but my cousin was on it and one day I stayed watching into GL and got to see the end of the Vanessa/Nola “Gone with the Wind” gowns fight. I didn’t know anything about the show or that it would become a classic scene.

This isn't the original ep but has a clip of the gown scene.

LOL at "If you think I'm going out there like two-thirds of the Andrews Sisters, you've got another thing coming!"

Nielsen ratings have always been BS. I’ve never known a Nielsen family. I’ve never thought them too accurate. Now with streaming they can get the exact number of people who watch.

I did the Nielsen diary for my family in the 80s.....

I listed 8 people watching ATWT and GL when it was just me....lol

[quote]I listed 8 people watching ATWT and GL when it was just me....lol

Thanks toots!

*Hays

I smell vinegar.....that old German fotze Helen must be around!

How well a show did also largely depended on time slot. You were up against GH and GL? Good luck. You were Y&R up against NO COMPETITION in most markets- you had it made (and they did). You had the lunch hour- advantage.

But didn't Another World, GL and GH have the after school kid advantage?

I never saw Y&R till I was in college; it moved so slowly I couldn't stay with it. I finally got hooked in the late 80s

Here in the South, the late soaps aired before school got out (2pm CST). Y&R didn’t have competition from early 80s on. Here, the high rated Price Is Right led into it. AMC and ATWT had the lunch crowd. Capitol interrupted ATWT into GL by being sandwiched in between them. Then they gave BB the lunch time slot.

I think the east coast is 75% of the viewing audience?

GH was big with high school kids in the late 70s, early 80s.

GL scored big with the Laurel Falls gang.

Yes, our HS loved the four musketeers.

LOVED them.

[quote] Now with streaming they can get the exact number of people who watch.

They can get the exact number of DEVICES (unique IPs) that are streaming the show. But they don't know if there's more than one person on the other side of the screen. Who knows, it might even be Fluffy the Cat. In that regard, it's more like the Household number in the old Nielsen Ratings (which is different than the Total Viewer number).

Quiet, my story's on!

Jennifer Runyon was my favourite Sally. Mary Page Keller is an extremely close second. So close that I might change my mind shortly. Keller's dark hair was my only reservation.

Ok. Mary Page Keller was the best Sally.

The worst Sally was over-the-hill Taylor Miller. By then there was no other choice but to be done with the character.

R338 Mary Page Keller had the best chemistry with Thomas Ian Griffith’s Catlin.

For good reason. They’re still married almost 40 years later.

Runyon was sweet but a little too much of a Southern California Barbie type for my taste. The first Sally replacement, Julie Philips, looked strikingly like Cathy Greene, the little girl Sally, but she wasn‘t a strong enough actress, especially for those 90 minute episodes. The less saud about Dawn Benz’ Sally the better. She was the Ann Hamilton of AW.

Poor Ann Hamilton.

THAT's an interview I'd love to see.

There wasn't anything wrong with her.....she just wasn't Mindy.

Linking this here, if you guys haven't seen it. ATWT from 1973

Helen Wagner sure made Nancy vinegary in those earlier years.

Is that Teri Garr in the ad for Cheer?

R338 comparing actresses sent me down a Sally Frame rabbit hole. I was surprised to find out Julie Phillips is the daughter of Peyton Place hottie Lee Phillips and the daughter-in-law of not so hottie Jean Stapleton.

Thank you, R342. Kim pregnant with Sabrina! Wow!

Nancy had to be vinegary back then, she was dealing with Bob marrying a tramp like Jennifer with a tramp sister like Kim and a tramp daughter like Barbara. And that tramp Ellen Stewart had two tramp daughters (Dee and Annie) who were acting up.

And Penny adopted an Oriental girl!

Kathyrn Hays looks and sounds so young there!

R347 It was appalling.

Tramps to my left! Tramps to my right!

Tramps, harlots and hussies everywhere!

Sexy ginger "Jay Stallings" in the episode at R342 looks like he's ready to star in a classic Joe Gage film, or at very least join the cast of "The Edge of Night."

Dennis Cooney was gay, right? I see he played "Michael" in one of the summer tours of "The Boys in the Band."

Here is a TGL from July, 1973.

Let's try that again.

Peter Galman was playing Tom Hughes at the time. Looks like a handsome enough fellow.

Yes, Dennis Cooney was a homo.

Does anyone know what the connection between Ellen and Jay Stallings is? And Kim was such a hussy, but she should stay away from that John Dixon.

R350 He definitely looks like a Joe Gage porn actor......or so I've heard.

That dumb stupid Cuntness Dumbatella, who has to insert herself into every soap conversation and embellish to make herself sound so much more important than anyone else is out of control. The cunt lies. She’s mad that she never got to eat out Connie Ford’s twat. Crazy bitch.

Didn’t they SORAS Annie Stewart around this time? She was supposed to be running with a bad crowd according to her bio. Jay was supposed to be a bad boy. Maybe Ellen thought Annie would end up knocked up as a teenager like her.

I found it amusing that they first called her Carol Ann and then Annie. And this was way before Poltergeist, I think.

giving kids little kid names doesn't really work when they get SORAS'd

the worst one ever is Lulu on GH.

We get it...Lulu - Luke Luke... it doesn't work calling her Lesley because there's only one Lesley on GH.

It's like Steffy on B&B; she's a grown woman with two kids and a little girl's name.

Nancy throws a dinner party, and Joyce serves up the dessert.

Yes, it would be so confusing with how often they reference Leslie Weber.

Jason couldn’t possibly be that kids father: even the actors real life wife has kids with the mailman.

I think R362 and R363 is on the wrong thread.....the GH thread is here

R359, and Dee was going by her given name, Dawn.

Mitch, the YouTube channel that posted the eps above, has many treasures on his channel. There’s a great episode of James’ and Barbara’s masquerade ball engagement party.

I wonder if Annie’s name was retconned because Carol Stallings was the ingenue/heroine for a long stretch.

I remember my mom LOVING Carol. I also remember her thinking Jay Stallings was hot. I had no idea he would’ve been in Oakdale as early as 1973.

Although I'm not old enough to have watched them live back then, I really find soap operas from the mid-to-late 60s to the mid-70s to be the best time period. I love watching these old shows. Just notice how much ground they covered in 22 minutes in that episode from 73, and how those long scenes gave the audience a chance to really get to know the characters and the situations.

Jay Stallings looks like he'd be sneaking out to the rest stop at midnight......

R360, if I remember correctly GH’s Lulu was named Lesley Lu at birth.

R369. she was.

They wrote Laura having a vision of her mother in childbirth with Lulu.

Genie, I think, said in an interview it was her (or her and Tony's) idea to bring Denise back.

"Kidnapped by a Cassadine" made the most sense.

The show dropped a HUGE opportunity to bring back Chris Robinson (who'd recently gotten off B&B and still looked good) and Judith Chapman (pre-Gloria, Y&R) and their son back.

Cue Lesley crying because this time another woman really did give Rick a son.

I think TPTB really didn't get the contributions Denise made to the show in the decade she was on.

I give Frank and Ron credit for giving Leslie and Denise that scene at the nurses' station back in, I think, 2013?

Eileen Fulton revealed on The David Susskind Show that Carol’s nickname on set was ‘Sterile Carol” bevause she wasn’t allowed to get pregnant via Fulton’s “No Granny” clause.

[quote] Jay Stallings looks like he'd be sneaking out to the rest stop at midnight......

In one interview, Cooney said he'd been briefly married to a woman who was an agent. Of course, that didn't work out, indicating his busy professional schedule conflicted with working on a marriage. .. He also co-owned an antiques business in The Village. SOD did a six-page article on Cooney's advice on antique-collecting showcasing a lot of the pretty things in his own personal collection in his "elegant Manhattan apartment." He'd just gotten back from a trip to (pick up things in) Amsterdam, Germany, and Greece. I bet!

In this two-page article he talks about where he thought Jay Stalling's initial story with Lisa was going, but then didn't.

"Wife"

Sure, Jan.

Rock Hudson had a wife, too.

So did Ed Smart

If his daughter hadn't been kidnapped he never would have been in the news or probably have come out.

Lots of gay actors had the "just haven't found the right girl" interviews in soap rags in those days.

When I rediscovered The Doctors and hot Peter Burnell, I found an old article about him written very similar to the one about Dennis Cooney.

Showing his NYC apartment, musing that he's too busy to find the right girl, etc.

I mean, actors aren't exactly bursting out of the closet these days, either, but there doesn't seem to be as many faux romance type things for daytime stars - the audience is probably too small these days for anyone to give a fuck, and Digest no longer exists in print form, so they seldom have long profiles about actors.

Marsha Clark and John Wesley Shipp dated. lolololol

The sexual chemistry between Marsha Clark and John Wesley Shipp was off the charts!

Imagine trying to get excited about mopey Michelle when all I wanted to do was bounce on Philip's lap.

It’s been mentioned on these threads before but apparently Shipp and especially Clark were spies for Doug Marland. They’d report back shit like who was openly bitching too much about the writing,

I thought Denise Pence was too. She so clearly pissed someone off there, and even now she's still bitter about being written off.

Denise Pence? Really. What has she done since GL but bitch about it.

Meaty, fleshy Billy Magnusson cast in new show.

No movie stardom for Billy so he comes crawling back to TV. Poor Billy,

Billy has been working steadily since his soap days, but there hasn't been a breakthrough role yet.

It's odd, Denise was the last (or close to the last) of the early Laurel Falls gang to be written off. (Or maybe it was Lisa Brown's Nola who left shortly thereafter?)

Floyd was off to jail for killing Andy Ferris. Tim (Kevin Bacon) long gone. Morgan gone. Kelly gone.

Katie was given a rushed happy ending; she left town with a day player who was a basketball player? (The character - not the actor.)

At this point, in 1985, nearly all the Marland characters were written out or diffused (hi, Vanessa!)

I am a diehard "love the veterans soap fan" and I was fully prepared to reject the Texas-fying of GL.

But Kobe and Long converted me. The Four Muskateers. Alexandra. Fletcher Reade. India. Von Halkein. Sonni. Reva Shayne Lewis. I was sold.

I'd love GL to stream from the late 70s with the tail end of the Dobson era and then Doug and Pam's runs -- all the way up to Maureen's death in early 1993. That's when the show really ended.

The only two Doug Marland creations who survived until the show's end were Vanessa and Josh.

Meanwhile Pam Long created characters who survived to the end include Beth, Mindy, Alexandra and Billy, as well as the adult version of Blake (the character was a child in the 1970s, but Pam brought her back in 1988).

Before anyone asks, Phillip and Rick were both children in the 1970s, but brought back as 18-year-old adults by L. Virginia Brown, who had a 13 week HW stint in late 1982, after Marland quit and Pat Falken Smith was fired.

r388 Don't forget Reva. As if any of us could. She was also a Pam Long creation who was there until the very end.

L. Virginia Brown deserves a freaking lifetime achievement DT Emmy for bringing back a high school aged Phillip, prompting Betty Rea to go out and find Grant.

God Bless Marj and also Joan Collins, but I don't think Alexandra survived until the end.

She left in 1992 and the role was never the same.

Lillian Rains and Frank Cooper were also created by Pam Long and lasted until the very end.

Ugh. Saint Beth of Raines.

Fascinating.

And goodness, Audrey Peters really was great casting for Reva's mother (though she aged 20 years in about 6 years).

[quote]And goodness, Audrey Peters really was great casting for Reva's mother (though she aged 20 years in about 6 years).

Glad you appreciate some of the finer things in life.

And there never will be, R386. He lacks the IT Factor. When I see Leo Woodall I think he’s a “Billy Magnusson type” who is breaking through.

Remember when Steve and Betsy were THE couple in Oakdale? Then a few years later, Steve gets written out as going to jail in Greece and … that was it. Clearly it was written in a way for Runeyon to return if he ever decided to but it never happened.

Anybody else whose story ended rather unsatisfactorily?

"Clearly it was written in a way for Runeyon to return if he ever decided to but it never happened."

I thought the show didn't want him back (at least, according to everything I've ever read before on these threads).

Frank Runyeon had a rep as quite an asshole.

I was a Y&R and OLTL watcher- with some minimal GL addiction in 88.. Lately I have been getting into ATWT- I particularly like the 1975-80 era.. I was checking out the 83-84 era, and Frank Runyeon is not attractive in the least and was not that great of an actor- So if he was an asshole, fuck him! I find Meg Ryan utterly awful.. Scott Bryce was clearly a star-

And I am not that old- 45 in May, and you know who I like? Patricia Bruder! I think that she was/is a wonderful actress- No idea why I like her.

And on Saturday I started watching some Christmas episodes from the Marland era- I can see why it was so beloved. It made ME feel warm inside. I always loved Hubbard from afar too.

Everything that. I have seen from ATWT from the 70's , well into the 80's was almost underproduced. No bombastic background music, many commercials fade to black with no music at all.. The sets look like a real person's home... Whereas both Y&R and OLTL in the 80's were overproduced (and I loved it) lots of great background music, etc.. ATWT from the mid 80's almost has a primetime quality to it. It looks like a family drama. I quite like it

Frank's not an asshole at all. but he does really get into the work.

He probably knew the Dobsons would throw him a lifeline and they did with Father Michael.

But I'm surprised that Steve never came back especially when Ashley Williams was cast as Dani.

Meg Ryan started briefly on Guiding Light and didn’t seem impressive.

Meg just got lucky.

I thought Lindsay was a much better actress; Meg was just bubbly and so fun!

In every role!

The Dobsons didn’t create the role of Michael for Frank Runyeon. They were suing NBC when he came on-I believe Anne Howard Bailey created that role.

Frank Runyeon always looked greasy and unbathed.

I remember Frank Runyeon touring with a Christian production in the 1990s.

I sort of thought Frank was hot when I first watched ATWT. But something about him came across as so sour on screen. A few years later when I first saw a few gay porn movies there was someone in a few of them that looked a whole lot like Frank.

I also got very confused early in my ATWT watching days because I would always confuse Steve and Tonio. Gah, Tonio was a terribly dull character. His portrayer was so clearly NOT South American. I just could NOT understand why everyone was so into him. Ugh, ugh, ugh. A rare misstep at a time where ATWT was on fire.

Frank was still pretty hot on Santa Barbara, like when Kirk (no longer played by Robert Newman) forced Michael & Nikki to wear Tarzan and Jane-style outfits on his island.

That little queer Danny Pintauro said he knew he was gay the moment that Jon Hensley showed up in the barn.

He was definitely handsome on SB, but I think even then his Jesusy side was coming out.

I remember chatting with someone in the early 90s who had been an extra/day player for a few months on ATWT during the pre Marland era with Meg Ryan as Betsy, and Frank and Scott Bryce.

He said Meg was pretty quiet and focused, not as bubbly as her persona, but not mean. Scott was flirtatious with everyone and very smooth. And I said, "What about Frank?" And his face got a sour, sucked-a-lemon look on it and all he said was, "yuck."

Not a lot of info there but that kinda said it all to me. LOL

Michael Park on working with Liz Hubbard and Kathleen Widdoes

I hope Kathleen showed her titties to Michael.

All he needs to do is watch the 1972 movie “Savages” to see that, R411.

My mother is a devout Catholic and Runeyon came to her church a few years ago performing his one man show about some saint or other.

I never saw Ryan’s performance as Betsy, just Frost. But wouldn’t you know, years later when I saw “The Ring”, I saw the resemblance. Frost looked so much like Ryan in her closeups. But she had that deep voice that Ryan doesn’t.

And she was about a foot taller.

I only ever saw Frost as Betsy and I liked her well enough, but she and Runyeon never gave off sparks. The only person she seemed to spark with while I was watching was Bill Fichtner aka Rapey Rod.

R414, she was. Thank goodness Frank and Scott are 6'2" plus.

I don't think Rod Josh was that tall.

I remember Lucinda visiting Josh Rod in the hospital after he saved Lily from James and got shot. She tried to give him a check but he ripped it up before looking at the amount. "Someday, you may learn that there are things money can't buy. My love for Lily is one of them."

Lucinda: "You've come a long way baby. From rapist to hero to TEACHER!"

God, I miss that show.

Liz Hubbard was amazing.

One of my favorite Hubbard lines: When Craig returns, he goes to breakfast at the Snyder farm. Lucinda barges in and says to him, "You didn't write, you didn't call. Mohammed didn't come to the mountain, so the mountain, she's come to you."

(around 40:20 below)

That was a strike episode too.....even more likely that Liz adlibbed that line!

I can believe it, r419

R418 so that’s what you do all day long…NOTHING

What's r421's damage?

R422 I think you know the answer to that question

I just found out Vinegar Pants sits on his ass all day long when he could be working.

R406: "Gah, Tonio was a terribly dull character."

Really? I think he was the most exciting villain the show ever had (heresy, because YOU-KNOW-WHO). So perfectly comfortable in his sleaziness. As for ethnic authenticity, 1. I just don't care, and 2. it is pretty funny, because Peter Boynton is about as WASPy as a human being can get. But I thought he was marvelous with Hubbard, with Finn Carter, with Jennifer Ashe, with Scott Bryce... and Tonio's Lakeview Towers fistfight with Josh / Rod was the greatest fistfight ever on the show-- maybe the greatest ever in Daytime.

R409: "Scott was flirtatious with everyone and very smooth."

Wow, hard to believe!

Did you hear about the great pretender? It was this fat old homo who sat all day long living in this fantasy world of make believe listening to Helen Reddy’s greatest hits and refusing to shower. He spoke of fictional characters obsessively to escape from the harsh realities of living along in filthy conditions.

Did Scott Bryce flirt with the vinegary Helen Wagner? Or was she not having any of it and give him “the look”.

So sad

Steve Andropolous should have come back as a villain years later to terrorize Lucinda, Sierra and Lily. Lucinda and James caused his financial downfall so I could see him kidnapping Sierra, Lily or one of their kids out of revenge when he got out of prison.

I also thought that they should have given Dan Stewart a son, conceived when he went to England for a year with Betsy and Emily to keep Emily from Susan.

Go douche

I see A LOT of blocked posts.

That’s nice, go douche

A dull character was Jesse, Beth's cousin. I know GL wanted to duplicate the Beth prototype, but they forgot to give her a personality and a compelling story.

Speaking of Beth's almost cousin, why did India hate Beth so much? Beth never did anything to her, and tried her hardest to get away from Phillip, whom India was obsessed with. India seemed to hate everyone except Phillip.

Beth was accused of being a house whore who was too fat to get out of bed. Ring a bell???

My cousin was on ATWT briefly in 1989 and told this behind the scenes story:

They were filming one of Oakdale’s big galas (possibly the terribly named “The AIDS Ball) so the cast was gathered.

Elleen Fulton had gotten her hair done and hated it and complained about her “fucking perm”.

Helen Wagner told her not to be so vulgar.

“Well, Helen I wouldn’t be except I have this terrible fucking perm!”

I worked at ATWT. Eileen used to plug up the shitter.

Fulton was tiny. I doubt she had any shit in her.

R425 I'm glad you enjoyed him. I'm sure others did too, he was on for over 5 years. No disrespect, just always felt like he was so dull. I know he was a villain because the dialogue told me, but I never found him convincing in that role. Something about the actor came off as too controlled, too reserved to me.

India had no reason to hate Beth, amirite AuntLiz?

India hated Beth because she could never be her.

India , deep down, wanted Alex’s love. She resented Alex for her awful childhood, and resented Lujack, Beth and Phillip for having Alex’s love.

Such a great scene at R442.

GREAT scene.

[quote]India had no reason to hate Beth, amirite AuntLiz?

I would say that Beth never did anything to India to make India hate her. However, Beth had something that India wanted and India hated her for that.

India wanted the love and respect and admiration that Beth enjoyed. Phillip and Alexandra certainly gave Beth that love, respect and admiration readily and freely.

India wanted love, admiration and respect for herself, yet Phillip and Alex wouldn't give that to her. The more India tried to get that from Phillip and Alex, the more they withheld it.

Thus India hated Beth for possessing something she desperately wanted and was unable to get.

The line "Saint Beth of Raines" really captured it well.

India had a point in that Phillip had outgrown Beth and didn't know it.

In fact, had Lujack lived he and Beth would have and should have ended up together.

I think Beth out grew him.

Maybe India should have I DUNNO sought Beth's help in securing love, respect, and admiration from Phillip and Alexandra instead of constantly going after Beth who couldn't give one fuck when India would attempt to put her down. Beth was immune to India's snark or venom unlike Revs who took the bait.

One of my favorite Tonio moments -- really a Lucinda moment -- was his being miffed that Lucinda easily forgave Barbara Ryan over her and Tonio's affair but HE was still in the dog house.

PISSED that Tonio would dare question her, Lucinda snapped at him: "I like! She's pretty. I like her!"

The "she's pretty" wasn't in any lesbionic way; it was just the truth.

R443, the ONLY time Alex ever apologized to India.

India began to finally get some of the love, respect and admiration she so desperately craved when she adopted Dorie.

Both Phillip and Alex both gave it to her in small doses, while Dorie gave it to India in huge doses.

The fight between Rod and Tonio mentioned above was vicious. I remember Rod spitting on prone Tonio at the end and the medical reports saying that he had damaged Tonio’s genitals with all the kicking. It was ugly. SOD even said it was one of the most realistic and nasty fights at the time.

GL botched Mary Kay's return in 1998 or 1999.

She had a great visit in 2002 (?) where she met Ben (Matt Bomer), the son of her late friend Maeve.

India played a big role in the Phillip's Ex Wives club where they all got together and voted Alan out and Alexandra (Joan Collins) in.

When Olivia met India at the Beacon, India introduced herself: "I'm India. Von Halkein."

Many times, she'd put that period in between India and Von.

Soap Digest gave Mary Kay a nice write up at the end of 1990 -- that's when Harley and Blake were front and center causing all kinds of havoc but the editors there knew that she was the best.

India was so wasted. She was briefly brought back in the Rauch years to possibly pair with Ross, but she deserved so much more.

I never understood why they didn't bring back Dorie. She would have been a good balance to crazy/intense Dinah.

I sort of understand she might not be a main, full front burner character but like Cecile on AW, they should have planned for her to return every year or two to be involved in hijinks.

I always thought they should have had India counsel Beth during Beth’s crazy years. Then they become friends. That’s just me.

India was such a dyke! She wanted to eat out Beth very desperately. Never could taker her seriously with men. Dyke all the way.

Toni-Leslie James dressed poor Eileen in these horrible clothes Eileen just wanted to explode! And she did - in the shitter!

You guys never talk about John Bolger. What did you think of his version of Phillip?

John would have been just fine in another role.

But even he referred to Phillip during a Locher Room as "The Real Phillip."

Mary Kay did most of her work with Bolger.

But he wasn't Phillip; the newly created flashback with Phillip and Beth at the prom was unreal.

He referred to Grant as the 'Real Phillip'

I liked John a lot. I mean, really, a LOT. He was gorgeous. (See him in Parting Glances!)

I was glad that Grant came back, and Grant's Philip was the definitive one, the one caught between his decent Marler side and his need to antagonize yet get acceptance from Alan.

John's Philip would have made more sense if they'd taken a different story route and made Philip accept his blue blood upbringing more.

The stories were terrible during John's run, which did him no favors. Philip wasn't really a novelist type. But he and Mary Kay had chemistry to burn. Mary Kay and Grant did, too, but a very different kind.

Couldn't remember when exactly Grant came back. Looks like it was early 1987 on screen (this is from mid Dec 1986).

This article also has a blurb about the beginnings of the Frannie / Sabrina story on ATWT.

It was Christmas Eve 1986

That was quick!

And that ep is on YouTube.

R463 here, yes, I was quick but R465, thanks so much for posting the episode. I thought his first full appearance (after a phone call) was him walking into the Spaulding mansion in a tux on Christmas Eve.

I'd never seen this show where he interacted with Nick and Rick and Chelsea and later found Dorie and Dinah at the bus depot.

Soaps can't afford bus depot sets anymore filled with extras no less in today's world.

John Conboy put Grant in speedos when he was on Capitol. John used to sit at his desk and rub one out while watching Grant during the internal feed while they were taping.

One of my favorite India lines came in 1990 when Phillip faked his death and was on the run when he encountered India in Greece (or someplace European).

Phillip informed India that Beth was alive.

India responded, "I did not give her permission to come back from the dead." Or something like that.

Such an India remark.

Unless I missed it the 12/24/86 episode also did not have the "The role of Philip Spaulding is now being played by The Pendulous One" voiceover.

I think what I love so much about India is that she feels like she could be a DLer. Watch the clip of Alan unmasking when Chris Bernau returned in 1986. She is eating that shit up!

I remember being disappointed they hired such a feeble looking old guy to play Baron Von Halkein. It should have been someone like Udo Kier who would leer at Philip’s snake in the pants with total focus. And yeah, played by him the Baron would turn out to be a big ol’ queen who Alex married for the title and Baron married to get his scheming old bitch of a mother (Zsa Zsa Gabor) off his back.

I never got the Grant thing until someone posted a clip of him from another soap, maybe GH. Basically, Grant's character was fucking his girlfriend's mom, while the girlfriend was waiting in the car. For some reason I thought that was the hottest fucking thing.

[quote]someone posted a clip of him from another soap, maybe GH. Basically, Grant's character was fucking his girlfriend's mom, while the girlfriend was waiting in the car.

That was AMC in 1995. He had married Kelly Ripa's character of Hayley but was fucking Hayley's mother, Arlene, on the side. That including fucking Arlene while Hayley was waiting in the car to go on their honeymoon.

R467, didn't we all?

There was something about Phillip, though. Soaps have tons of hunks, but he was someone you just wanted to hang out with.

I loved when Warren tied up India with the string of Xmas lights. And then plugged them in.

I think India was popular as a character as we could all see some of ourselves in her.

I don't remember this whole part of the Kyle/Reva story. Roxie was a HO?

[quote]Roxie was a HO?

The term was Sampson Girl.

R477, she was a “party girl.” I think she must have drawn the line at anal.

well played r478

Philip Spaulding invented surprise anal.

As I recall, Mindy and Saint Beth of Rains were also Sampson Girls.

*Raines

That scabby little Jessie bitch was a Sampson girl, too.

I wonder if H.B. Lewis ever dreamed of a Lillian Raines-Calla Matthews sandwich?

H.B. was trying to get some Baroness booty for a while.

MINDY is a SPECIAL GIRL.

[quote] But he didn't want to clear out the cobwebs

Clearly he didn't belive in giving to the poor

What was I, chopped liver?

Ahem ...

Bea was Henry's beard.

Wow! Too bad I didn't know about this prostitution ring Kyle was running with all the young girls in town. I could had a scoop. Maybe even won a Pulitzer.

[quote]H.B. was trying to get some Baroness booty for a while.

So was Hawk Shayne.

Why didn’t they just recast Mike Bauer with an actor willing to be Bev’s romantic partner, instead of trying to make poor Bev suck face with one of the geriatric men on the show.

In that 1973 episode of TGL, Don Stewart looked really good. Bulging arms in that polo shirt and his dark tan, he was quite the leading man. It must have been tough for him when they SORASed his daughter and tried to pair him with age-appropriate actresses.

The last time that Bert Bauer got her pussy diddled was by Martin Bruhner in 1983. Then he died.

R468

India said: "the blond virgin rises again!"

She was the best

[quote]The last time that Bert Bauer got her pussy diddled was by Martin Bruhner in 1983. Then he died.

Did she peg him with her artificial leg?

R488 I love you!

Imagine Maureen Bauer screaming "You betrayed my oyster....for such a LOW BID"

R498 That was before Bert’s leg was chopped off.

😮 😮

Remember Hank Eliot? I was 16 and loved the story, as short as it was. His best scenes were with Shannon O’Hara, she was totally the type to be his “hag”.

I still laugh when, after the story wrapped up, there was a mention of it in Soap Opera Digest that Marland was in touch with the actor and hope to have him back. Never happened.

I was annoyed about go four years later with the Ryan Phillipe storyline on “One Life to Live” and everybody acting like it was so brave to do the story.

I loved the Hank Eliot story. I wish someone would do a thing with the guy that played him.

I know Iva was a big part of his story but it seems to me other female characters were also close friends with him and thank you r502 for reminding me Shannon was one of them, wasn't Barbara too? Lucinda? I wish there were more clips of those scenes. YT seems to only have the scenes with Iva and they are wonderful scenes for sure, just wish the others were out there too

Yes, R503, Barbara was his boss but also a friend. When Paul called him a fag and reacted badly, Barbara said, “Paul, you are my son and I love you but right now I don’t like you very much!” I was like, “Oh, shit”.

Kirk Anderson went all the way and called him the full word and Iva blew up.

Like Kirk wouldn't have pulled out his sizemeat for a quick blowie from Hank behind the Snyder barn.

I remember being so shocked when Kirk just casually called Hank a "faggot"-- right in the middle of the busy hospital cafeteria! Iva shot daggers through him with her eyes.

Douggie Marland was a gay.

Brian Starcher as Hank was hot but he didn’t have much of an acting career.

There is a big bottle of white vinegar in op’s pic. Why don’t you all douche your assholes with it?

That was vulgar, r509.

You must be that tramp Barbara Ryan.

^^Ok I guess.

If anyone needed to douche, it was Spread ‘Em wide CZP.

[quote]I was annoyed about go four years later with the Ryan Phillipe storyline on “One Life to Live” and everybody acting like it was so brave to do the story.

If they'd been brave, then Joey Buchanan would have been The Gay of LLanview. That's what Michael Malone proposed, but ABC insisted The Gay of Llanview not be related to anyone we already knew in Llanview. Ergo, Billy Douglas.

My favorite (/s) scene was when Billy came out to his parents at the Llanview Country Club. As if that homophobic asshole father would stand for such a revelation in public in front of everyone who mattered in Llanview. I wanted to kick the shit out of whoever made that call.

I didn't care for the homosexuals atall!

Re: Hank E — Andy was accepting but Paul had issues? I remember Marland had a penchant for building friendships between teens and older chatacters.

I also remember Hank leaving Oakdale to care for his lover Charles who was suffering from HIV. We see Hank taking the hand of a bedridden Charles, who is seen only as a shape in a bed.

I believe this is around the time YR had Cricket and her HIV+ mother sing Send in the Clowns while AW had Dawn Rollo and AMC had Cindy.

AW was first with an HIV story, I think.

It's kind of chicken and egg with Dawn and Cindy's stories.

Dawn arrived on Friday, Sept. 4, 1987. That same day, according to the AW Home Page, Jamie diagnosed an AIDS patient. Anyway, most of Dawn's time was spent on the romance with Scott LaSalle, reconnecting with her brother Chad, and becoming beloved by Bay City folks. It wasn't until Monday, Dec. 21, that they revealed Dawn's diagnosis. She hung around for three more months before leaving with Scott to die in Venice.

I see that Cindy also arrived in September 1987, but it seems like AMC was more blatant with setting the foundation for her story. Does anyone know exactly when Cindy was diagnosed with AIDS? Was it that same week in December 1987? Anyway, she was able to hang around until February 1989. And then they tried to do Marley & Vicky 2.0, with Ellen Parker playing Cindy's evil twin Karen.

If I remember correctly, a few years later, when ATWT did the Margo/HIV rape story, there was a scene set in a hospital with a gay man kissing his dying partner-wasn’t that one of the first times two men kissed on TV?

Andy and Paul were slower to accept Hank but they eventually did. IIRC Paul did after Hank somehow helped save him from James.

And then there’s MAUDE!

Fine piece of ass Agim Kaba (Aaron on ATWT) is 45 today.

I made a doo doo in my diaper today.

Another World has the first AIDS story

LOVING had the first mention of AIDS via nurse Noreen Donovan.

R516, you buried the lede! I had no idea Ellen Parker had been on AMC.

R515, we saw Hank’s lover Charles for all of a split second. He was sitting in a chair and Hank same up behind him and put his hand on his shoulder.

I do think Andy was more accepting. IIRC, Hank told Andy and he was a little surprised but much nicer.

Didn’t Paul find out from somebody else about Hank? He did flip out.

R523, R516 obviously fucked up. Ellen WHEELER went on AMC as Cindy’s evil twin.

I think Barbara told Paul about Hank, or maybe Andy casually mentioned it, thinking Paul already knew. Either way, Barbara was very disappointed in Paul's reaction, and she gave him a stern talking-to. Hal tried to calm him down, as well.

Yikes, I can't believe I messed up my Ellens. Well, thankfully I didn't say Ellen Dolan.

I remember Hank hemming and hawing over telling Barbara; and she said, 'Are you trying to tell me you're gay?"

She was savvy and accepting and clever. Babs had been in the fashion world. She knew when someone was gay.

And yet all these years (decades?) later, B&B has given us on trans character. Two recurring lesbians (Karen and Dani).

B&B takes place in the alternate Bell universe where the LA fashion industry is full of womanizing straight men and two families.

B&B has always sucked. Worst acting .

r529 r530 Los Angeles moved to the Midwest?

I've never been to the midwest but for some obscure reason South Dakota sounds appealing for a visit. Probably because it seems like a totally different world than New England.

R530, ain’t that the truth. I hate to speak ill of the dead but Darlene Conley as Sally Spectra was downright grotesque. Ugly face and body and an absolutely horrible actress. But of course there were idiots in the soap press who thought she was hilarious.Linda Dano would have been a great Sally Spectra under very different circumstances.

After all the crappy relationships she had with men, Iva Snyder should have become a late in life lesbian.

I'd be more surprised if Barbara didn't have functioning gaydar. She was in the fashion industry.

Of course, B&B runs a show with no gays in the fashion industry so.....

R533: "I hate to speak ill of the dead but Darlene Conley as Sally Spectra was downright grotesque. Ugly face and body and an absolutely horrible actress."

Wow, I strongly disagree. Sally Spectra was created by someone who clearly loved and understood film noir; the homage to the genre seems obvious to me. And Darlene Conley was perfect in the role: funny, flamboyant, endlessly optimistic. I love watching Sally take on the world!

R536, so did the whole world.

Spread ‘em, Colleen! Spread them legs, CZP!!!

MARY!

My Dutch friends in The Netherlands, where B&B not only airs current episides it has B&B:The Early Years daily, thought Sally Spectra was a drag queen. A very unfunny drag queen. One of them said “When she starts rolling her eyes I switch channels-“

Too bad Grant and his pendulous dong weren’t in B&B.

Fuck Sally Spectra. For a female soap character that presents like a drag queen, I prefer Felicia Gallant or Lucinda Walsh.

Pussycat!

Hmm, who should be the topic of the next thread?

R543, my vote is Rita Stapleton Bauer.

R544 Noted! I don't think we've done a Rita thread.

Mostly because Bert threatened to kick us with her good leg.

I don't think Joanne Gardner Barron Tate Vincente Tourneur has been appropriately honored on Datalounge or what about Walter Curtin or Liz Matthews.

Did people really dislike Mary Stuart behind the scenes?

Walter Curtin should open a line of designer scarves with boutiques in all the posh, exclusive places.

R547 Let's put it this way - Mary's levels of cuntitude would make Linda Lavin look like a kindergarten teacher.

We have had a thread about Mary/Search/Henderson in the last few years. Mary's resting bitch face was the main photo and we got quite a few complaints about the trauma some suffered from that.

Did Shannon O’Hara really shove Barbara’s head in a toilet or did I dream that I read that somewhere?

Also, does anybody remember the cat fight between Lucinda, Lisa, and Jill Larson’s reporter character at Brian and Beatrice’s wedding?

Mary didn't get along with:

-Agnes Nixon

-Most of the actresses playing Patti

- Ann Marcus

-The McCleary Family

If I didn't have to make dinner, this list could go on and on

These PG threads seem to focus on ATWT, then GL - sometimes AW will get some love, but they always fall back to ATWT and GL. None of the other PG soaps get a lot of attention on here. No one would ever suggest a thread about Reena Decker or India Delaney.

I'd love a thread about Reena Bellman Cook Dekker and her portrayor Carla Borelli. But I sincerely doubt there would be much participation in that thread.

[quote]These PG threads seem to focus on ATWT, then GL - sometimes AW will get some love, but they always fall back to ATWT and GL.

I didn't watch a soap on a regular basis until the summer of 1988, starting with AW, and then ATWT and GL. So I have no knowledge of, no familiarity with Reena Bellman Cook Dekker, Joanne Gardner Barron Tate Vincente Tourneur, Rita Stapleton Bauer. But it's fun reading you all going on about them.

[quote] I'd love a thread about Reena Bellman Cook Dekker and her portrayor Carla Borelli.

I loved her "FIGURINES" commercials.

Wasn’t Mary Stuart a bitch to her kids too?

GL and ATWT were just bigger, and many would argue better, than the other P&G soaps. They were the last two standing, and had bigger stars/ storylines. IMO. AW was a nonentity in a way by the 80s.

Well, piss on you, r557.

I wonder what stories Marie Cheatham could tell.

"Mary didn't get along with:

-Agnes Nixon

-Most of the actresses playing Patti

- Ann Marcus

-The McCleary Family"

You forgot

- Any female actress on the show not named Melba Rae

- Her hairdresser

- Other people for existing

- The Air

AW’a heyday was the 1970s when Pete Lemay was HW.

Show had a four- year resurgence in 1988-92 when Lemay returned and set the show right and left a three-year Bible to follow.

Anybody have good Mary Stuart stories to tell?

How about a thread dedicated to Charlotte “Raven” Alexander Jamison Swift Whitney (Brown) Devereaux Whitney?

I think which soaps are your favorite are somewhat regional:

I've always heard that CBS soaps played big in the South, rural areas, and with black viewers.

ABC soaps were more popular in large cities and urban areas

NBC soaps were preferred out west and the Northeast

R561 But not ratings wise- it was considerably lower than the others. It was never on anyone’s radar after the 70s.

AW was on my radar, r565. And that was enough for me. And I watched during that really good phase, 1988-92.

AW and ATWT were tied for #1 in 1978, then both were surpassed by a surging ABC.

CBS and P&G both seemed to put effort into refreshing ATWT and improving it’s ratings; but NBC and P&G both seemed to give up on Another World after the 90 minute experiment failed.

[quote] Did Shannon O’Hara really shove Barbara’s head in a toilet or did I dream that I read that somewhere?

She did!

I just saw that episode recently on YouTube but can't find it. I think it was sometime in 1986.

I lived in the Rust Belt and GL was a very popular show in our area. GH and ATWT had long periods in the 70s and 80s of either not playing in our market at all or playing only in the early morning.

R567 The ratings the person posted above for ‘78 showed GL beating AW almost every week from August until December, hitting #1 a few weeks then tying ATWT at #1 for a week. There were a few weeks GL had huge, dramatic shifts dropping very low, then recovering to 4th or 5th.

R557,

You deserve a kick in the cunt for that…

R571 Perhaps (or a snap to the nuts with Ida’s dishrag), but it’s true. There was a huge drop in ratings between the top 7 soaps and the bottom 4 by the 80s. Really, it was Y&R blowing everyone out of the water by mid 80s, then 2-7 fairly close most weeks. As many have said, I think AW suffered from being against GH AND GL plus perhaps, for whatever reason, P&G didn’t seem to care much after the 90 minutes fiasco.

[quote]I think AW suffered from being against GH AND GL plus perhaps, for whatever reason, P&G didn’t seem to care much after the 90 minutes fiasco.

But AW wasn't up again GL or GH in the 1980s.

AW aired at 3 p.m. (EST) from its launch in 1964 until Aug 1980, when it contracted back to 60 minutes (with the launch of Texas). At that point, AW moved to 2 p.m. (EST) for the rest of its run.

Agreed, P&G lost interest in AW after the 90-minute fiasco.

I’ve seen clips of AW from the heyday of Steve and Alice and then a clip of Rachel confronting Alice and demanding the house. (Why would anybody have listened to Rachel? What right did are have anyway?). But it was really good TV.

Then a few years later we have Blaine being terrorized over some rag doll so… it fell quickly. Was it LeMay leaving or did behind the scenes people leave it for “Texas”?

Harding LeMay was fired in April 1979, shortly after the show expanded to 90 minutes.

That was a big blow to the show, something it never really recovered from.

But Lemay was also suffering from burnout; the storylines during his final year were no where near the quality of the storylines of the mid 1970s. His burnout was inevitable. Lemay was not only doing long term storylines but he was writing scripts for 2-4 episodes each week and had been doing so for quite some time.

AW mostly suffered from the 90 minutes fiasco. Some episodes were fucking amazing. It was easy to see this as a food idea. The debut, especially, was very strong. But it was mor of an ending than a beginning. John Randolph gone. It was a poignantending to his character . But...

90 minutes of a soap is a lot

He was completely burned out; undoing Iris' paternity was a huge misstep for one. But there was no way that Lemay's style would have survived. Soaps were changing rapidly in the late 70s and 80s. Those long 8-minute scenes with a beginning, middle, and end were going the way of the dinosaur. Character-driven stories without much plot couldn't hold up against saving the world from James Bond-type villains. The audience was changing, and the way soaps had to tell stories changed. Lemay's style wasn't going to work without traditional soap opera plots to pump it up.

R578 Then how the hell did glacial Y&R stay #1 for decades?

I think many soaps found a good balance. I was just born when the Ice Princess story aired. I just saw a clip of it last week and it was embarrassing. No wonder Genie was coked out. And she looked coked out holding that machine gun. 🤣

[quote]No wonder Genie was coked out. And she looked coked out holding that machine gun.

I think everyone was coked out in those scenes. GH was coke central in those days.

[quote]Then how the hell did glacial Y&R stay #1 for decades?

Y&R didn't go the save the world route, but they did a black guy pretending to be white to infiltrate the mob, a mobster threatening victims with piranhas, burying Lauren Fenmore alive, cults and baby stealing, and holding an ex's lover hostage in a dungeon. Bell never changed his pacing, but he knew how to throw in an attention-grabbing story to get people talking, and then the audience just ate up Katherine versus Jill and Victor and Nikki in the 80s..

Y&R also had no time slot competition. And the lunch crowd.

Genoa City from the beginning was packed with very attractive young actors having sex and/or barely wearing clothes. That made up for the slow pace.

One of the first things Doug Marland did when he took over Guiding Light was create a teen/early 20s set, then put them in bathing suits at Laurel Falls.

the Guiding Plight scene with Rita and Bert is CLASSIC

"dear, how far back into the story are you going to go?"

"A slut like you? Hang it up, honey."

In that scene, I love when Rita mentions Barbara and Bert rolls her eyes.

OK, folks, new thread.

I did try to rotate the topic a bit. Rita is a good possibility for a future topic, for sure.

I really need to watch the Plight clip from beginning to end, it's a little cringy but mostly hilarious. The Bert/Rita bit is the best part, I think.

[quote] One of the first things Doug Marland did when he took over Guiding Light was create a teen/early 20s set, then put them in bathing suits at Laurel Falls.

Thank the heavens. John Wesley Shipp's overstuffed Speedo gave me LIFE!

Grant really should have been in a Speedo more often.

He was always in a hot tub on Capitol. I guess they had to keep The Pendulousness submerged under water, or else it might have poked one of the cameramen in the eye.

How did anybody think “Texas” was a good idea? The one good thing it did was get Pam Long into the writing biz and she was able to grab a lot of the actors and put them on GL.

Well, it was an attempt to capitalize on the whole Dallas vibe. Daytime really thought that was the way to go for a long stretch, in addition to Texas, OLTL and GL both introduced Southern families.

I think unfortunately Texas was the victim in its first year or so of too many cooks in the kitchen. The creators originally wanted to set it more in the South, but the network wanted a Dallas copy and then somehow Paul Rauch got involved and made it an AW spinoff with Beverlee McKinsey as its star. So it had about 4 different pieces trying to meld together (and that didn't go so well).

Pam Long was really able to whip the show together and make it work but unfortunately it was already doomed by that point.

R590, or the viewers.

How clean could have Grant’s dong been? It touched the toilet water when he shit.

My understanding is that sending Iris to Texas was not originally part of the plan. TPTB only decided to add Iris a few months before its debut.

Beverlee had broken her collar bone while hanging curtains and was home recuperating in the first few months of 1980. Carole Shelley subbed as Iris while she was out including in the episodes where everyone learns Janice poisoned Mac and tried to kill him in the "Harry Must Die" plot. After that, they wrote Iris off by sending her to the Riviera or someplace.

During the time she was recuperating, Beverlee's contract expired and she wasn't interested in renewing. Was tired of the role and tired of the commute to Brooklyn. This was about the time TPTB decided that moving Iris to Texas might increase the show's chance of success. So, Paul Rauch offered her the sun and the moon to return, including a $1 million salary and star billing in the opening credits.

So "Beverlee returned and played Iris for another 18 months, then opted a clause in her contract to leave the new show.

I always felt that Washington DC would have been a better location for an Iris spin-off. There could have been some kind of Manchurian Candidate storyline involving Dennis. And Alex Wheeler (or whatever his name woukd be) was a powerful Senator who goes along with Iris’ plans to groom their son into a political career. God knows it would have been better than that CBS stinkfest Capitol which featured an ersatz Iris played by Carolyn Jones. Myrna Clegg? Really?

Fucking Beverlee was always overworked. What a cunt.

let's

close this..

thread out!