are you thinking of getting double citizenship after this election?

I looked into it but don't think I would qualify based on my interpretation of the requirements.

I’m Native American, how lousy is that?!

OP what would be the point?

As if any 70 year old DLer is going to suddenly leave their home state for the first time because of an election result.

OP thinks she can order citizenships on HSN.

Canadian here.

I'll marry one of you as long as you're rich and not bad looking.

Compartmentalization. Mental defense mechanism.

The ancestors came here too far back for dual citizenship.

But I am considering moving abroad if that imbecile becomes POTUS again.

Yes! American. I’m here illegally.

Europe doesn't want us burdening their infrastructure.

We have one Irish grandparent. My brother went for it and now lives in France.

It won’t help. NATO is gone, Putin and Xi can run rampant.

Europe is going to be flooded with Ukrainians if Trump wins. Ukraine has a population of 37 million, I would guess at least half the population will flee if not more.

I can’t believe it. I am gutted.

R3 So true. I have a friend in his late 70s. He told me his biggest fear is dying while Trump is in office, because he doesn't want to die and think the country he's loved all of his life is without hope.

Having a second citizenship has given me a bit of calm and has made everything less stressful now. It is if I know that I have other options in case I need to leave this country.

I have passive income, and I have many hundreds of years of Scottish ancestors up to my GREAT grandparents, who came here in the late 1800s. I am hoping that with my lack of need to take a Scot's job, bringing my independent money and my heritage to the table, I can qualify for a Financially Independent Person visa and move to Scotland when I retire in a couple of years.

Fuck no!

Been thinking about it for a while. My father was born here before his father renounced his citizenship, therefore I have the legal right to become a citizen in Italy even though I am 2nd gen American. My cousin did it but it's difficult because I don't know the language and lots of paperwork that needs to be done over there. I need a bilingual lawyer which can't really afford right now.

Italy is funny that way, once an Italian always an Italian. Can you imagine if someone from America moved to France, had a child and that child had a child and it would still have the right to become a U.S. citizen without being born here or even setting foot in the country?

They're trying real hard to make it only second generation and sooner for citizenship by descent in Italy. For most other places, it's a native grandparent or no dice.

What if your family has been in this country several centuries?

Not anyone who has looked at immigration laws.

Ha! My family was here pre-Revolutionary War, so I have nowhere else to go.

I had one grandmother who was born abroad, somewhere in what eventually became Czechoslavkia, so the country didn't actually exist at that time. And then in1992, it was split in two.

Prague looks nice, though..lol

R16,

Today’s Scotland might not match your expectations. We proudly welcome new Scots from all over the world, no matter what their heritage. Scottishness is not about ethnicity, but outlook. The Financially Independent Person initiative is an EU programme. We didn’t vote for Brexit, England did.

There are nine countries in Europe that offer citizenship by descent based on great-grandparents, and others that require a grandparent or patent for the same.

But there are lots of options other than citizenship by descent to gain citizenship or establish permanent residency. In Argentina, for example, one option requires an investment of $5,000 USD or 1,500,000 Argentine pesos (currently about $1500 USD). Every country has its own requirements.

At the link is an immigration advisory firm's list of 15 countries where obtaining a residency permit is relatively easy. It needn't require suitcases full of money or recent ancestors or work permits. And of course it's usually easy if an applicant can demonstrate financial self-sufficiency.

The number of US citizens who live outside the U.S. is only 1% of the population, and that figure includes people on work assignment outside the US for 1 year or more, people studying abroad, etc

Interesting, R24. Does that mean I might be welcomed there, if I feel a kinship (I really do, I always feel more at home there than in the States) and I have my own income and won't be taking a Scot's job from them? My father's side of the family have hundreds of years of history in Aberdeen. My great-grandfather came here from Aberdeen, and my great-grandmother came to the US from London. I feel so at home all over the UK. I just resonate with the cultures so much.

I have a sense that my dollars would go farther in Scotland. I live in a very expensive part of the US, the only places more expensive than the Boston area would be NYC or LA. I feel that I could live twice as well as a retiree in Scotland. But that's just a hunch, not a studied position.

"Today’s Scotland might not match your expectations" -- can you elaborate? Last time I was there was 2018. Has it changed a lot in the past few years?

I've heard that in Italy a citizenship request can often be pushed through for approval, even if it doesn't meet all the requirements, for the right "fee."

Might as well look into options. The US will soon be a banana republic toilet.

99.9% of Americans would never qualify nor could they afford it. The Western would has shut its doors. You have to have millions and skills to even be considered.

R27, Italy has its own Fascist leader. Let’s not even go there. Their criminal justice system is more screwed up than the US’s and they hate gays and are basically run by the Vatican. You think you have problems now, I have family there who are leaving. They can’t stand it. Two are moving to Germany.

How many Americans speak more than one language? They can barely manage English.

[quote] Italy is funny that way, once an Italian always an Italian.

You’re such a weirdo.

I'm thinking about getting double penetrated

The whole idea is so fuck absurd. Unless one has strong ties to another country, what's the point?

mid 1930s Germany. Pessimist went to America, optimist went to Auschwitz

R31 I am an American who was an art history academician, so I'm semi-fluent in French and German. Have also been seriously learning Scottish Gaelic. And I study Esperanto and Greek just for fun. I've traveled extensively throughout Europe for decades, and I lived in London for a year in the late 90s.

Not every American is a drooling ignoramus.

We'll simply take control, as you disappear...

[quote]Unless one has strong ties to another country, what's the point?

Well, I do have distant relatives there so there is that. Plus a beautiful country. I wont be involved in their politics so no worries about that anymore.

I had an Irish grandmother and a German grandfather. I could get dual citizenship if I wanted to. A cousin of mine did, and it wasn't all that difficult.

[quote]Europe is going to be flooded with Ukrainians if Trump wins. Ukraine has a population of 37 million, I would guess at least half the population will flee if not more.

Ukranians are white, blond and hot so Americans wouldn't mind at all if they came to the US.

[quote]The number of US citizens who live outside the U.S. is only 1% of the population, and that figure includes people on work assignment outside the US for 1 year or more, people studying abroad, etc

Americans have it so good, even Canada is kind of shitty to us.

R41 that is no longer the case

R30 who gives a fuck. The point is EU residency/passport.

[quote]Italy has its own Fascist leader. Let’s not even go there. Their criminal justice system is more screwed up than the US’s and they hate gays and are basically run by the Vatican. You think you have problems now, I have family there who are leaving. They can’t stand it. Two are moving to Germany.

So many expats are moving to Italy that the country is making entry even harder. And tourism is through the roof.

For those of you who are self-employed and can live with so-so summers and lots of rain throughout the year: look into the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty. You can apply for a residence permit in the Netherlands by investing a minimum of $4,500 in the country. No minimum age:

*Sorry, that should be no *maximum* age, of course.

R39 What would that do for you? It might make travel in the EU easier, but what does that have to do with the election?

You're not going to move to either of those countries, no matter what happens.

These threads are just fantasy.

I’m looking into German citizenship.

Mine were over here killing the natives in the early 1600's, so I am at a loss.

[quote]Americans have it so good, even Canada is kind of shitty to us.

The "Americans are living the dream"/"everything is better in the USA" troll resurfaces , urging Americans to just take a pill and enjoy it, it's heavenly perfection, really, nothing could be bigger, better, or more delightful. And maybe "See the USA in your Chevrolet"?

[quote]99.9% of Americans would never qualify nor could they afford it. The Western would has shut its doors. You have to have millions and skills to even be considered.

That's simply not true. Especially not if you have work that doesn't require you to be a specific location or are retired with even a modest income stream or resources that wouldn't buy you the tiniest backwater condo in some Tornado Alley in the US.

[quote]The whole idea is so fuck absurd. Unless one has strong ties to another country, what's the point?

Many Americans don't think twice about relocating for a job that may not be a dream career, or simply changing house. The average American moves 11 times in his life, the average European moves just 4 times. Most Americans live within 18 miles of their mother (down from 25 miles a decade earlier). But it's not about mass migrations, it's about individual situations and choices. Most Americans don't go to universities outside the US, but many could and some do. It's not that it's impossible, it's just a matter of desire and self-direction paired with the ability to do it.

[quote]You're not going to move to either of those countries [Germany, Ireland], no matter what happens....These threads are just fantasy.

Why not? You think no American has ever moved to Ireland or to Germany?

Yes R29, R34, R41, R47, for many people the idea *is* just fantasy at present or perhaps always. They have work or family or other obligations in the US that are their priorities. Or they lack the resources/requirements needed to move to countries they might like.

That doesn't make it a fantasy of impossibility for everyone, including many people who don't have suitcases of USD/$ to throw around. Relatively few people will ever give serious consideration to the idea, fewer will act upon it -- and probably fewer still should act upon it because it won't suit them.

It's only 1% of the US population who live outside the US long-term or permanently. Of course not every American can do it, nor do other countries have special velvet-roped VIP clubs to welcome Americans (or anyone else) with open arms and luxurious gifts. Emigration is a balance of possibility/opportunity, desire to make it work, and the resources and commitment to do it.

From my experience the happiest immigrants who enjoy their lives in their new countries have in common a strong desire to be where they have settled. They moved with the desire to be a specific new place and to become part of it. That's true of immigrants who moved from the luxury of choice as well as those who moved from a sense of brutal necessity. It works for people who are willing to adapt; it often doesn't work well for people who are not, or for people like that American couple who were disillusioned by their move to France in a whim in a CNN article in s recent thread.

Of course moving to another country isn't for everybody. It's not even possible for many, yet for many others it is a possibility and can be a rewarding one. It depends on the person.

Nice, R50. When I say I am looking into relocating to Scotland, I'm not fucking around. It's not a fantasy. It's totally obtainable and within reach. In two years. The only reason I would have second thoughts is because I have family here in MA and it would make it more challenging to get together. But let's get real, Christmas in Scotland, vs Christmas in Waltham? Yeah I think they would find a way to me.

Maybe it is unobtainable to Miss Sadsack at R47, who is too closed-minded (or ignorant) to know what the pathways are to living abroad. Or she's too embittered that she still lives with Mother, and has to give Mother her diabetes meds too many times per day to be able to even get to the gym, let alone take a trip to "Abroad."

I’d be fine in several European countries language wise.

Even before the election results, I’ve considered travelling while working, but I have not considered moving outside of the United States permanently.

My health insurance is directly tied to my state. No way in hell am I relinquishing that, nor would something like that be financially possible for me.

Europe has its own issues as well, btw. Unless one is VERY well off, those issues and bureaucracy will take its toll on the average American.

[quote]The "Americans are living the dream"/"everything is better in the USA" troll resurfaces , urging Americans to just take a pill and enjoy it, it's heavenly perfection, really, nothing could be bigger, better, or more delightful. And maybe "See the USA in your Chevrolet"?

For all of the US's faults, it's a much better place to live than many other countries. Americans are used to a certain way of life and even Western European countries can be challenging.

I actually looked into getting dual Italian/American citizenship after the 2016 election. Both of my maternal grandparents were born in Italy and emigrated to the U.S. in the early 1900s. I also still have distant relatives living in Tuscany.

IIRC, I was ineligible because my grandparents had become U.S. citizens before my mother was born (or something like that). But for a while there, I thought it might be a possibility.

Sadly I’m one generation off from having been able to get Finnish citizenship. It pisses me off greatly.

In Europe all seems to breathe freedom and peace and to make one forget the world and its sad turmoils.

The thing is, the conditions there aren't much better. AND you'd be closer to Russia/Ukraine and a potential war front.

Germany's existing government just collapsed yesterday and will call for early elections. Many of the same issues, particularly immigration, are raging there, as well. The AfD - Germany's equivalent to MAGA - has gone from 2-3 percent of government a decade ago to 20-30 percent across the country and growing.

France, Austria and the Netherlands have been doing a dance with fascism and Nazism for years.

Italy's Meloni is far right.

A place like Germany may have a more stable separation between church and state and more protected same sex marriage laws, but set that aside and the gameboard is essentially the same.

We're in for a huge period of chaos, potentially an apocalyptic one.

Inflation, healthcare, housing, immigration from third world shitbags - Europe has the same problems the US has.

But at least the food is much better!

I already have it. Italian by descent. But I also have an elderly mother here to think about, and too many pets. (The logistics of moving one pet into the EU is daunting and ridiculous, let alone four.) We'll wait and see how things go. The majority of my pets are senior citizens, so in a year or two I will have more flexibility there.

R54: Citizenship by descent requirements for not a few other countries are similar in setting key dates or restrictions that turn on taking citizenship in the U.S. before a child's or grandchild's birth.

To acquire legal residency in Italy opens up various options: to persons with an annual income stream of €31,000 or more, for non-lucrative visa holders (with a nearly identical requirement of income stream); investment; buying real estate or a personal residence; etc. None without some red tape and tricky support documentation and filing procedures - yet relatively simple compared to the requirements in the U.S. for residency requirements of non-citizens.

Italy has more routes of admission than many countries.

There's a thread on a couple that moved to France and had many issues.

I knew about the FACTA financial issues, but didn't know there was also such a struggle to see a doctor there. I'm experiencing that here, as well.

European hospitals are pretty grim. It’d be wise to have a look before emigrating.

R26, how do you feel about sheep?

[quote]Inflation, healthcare, housing, immigration from third world shitbags - Europe has the same problems the US has. But at least the food is much better!

The food, the culture, the vibe. I was in Berlin back in May. I sat at a park where there was outdoor tables for drinking beer and eating from a kiosk. There must have been a hundred tables. And as I looked around, everyone was engaged with whomever they were sitting with. NO ONE was looking at their cell phones. This is not hyberbole. It was so stark and so striking, I was so moved that I actually got choked up. It was beautiful.

Went to Poznan Poland on that trip and same thing. Huge beautiful square from the Renaissance period, cafes everywhere, people talking, children playing, buskers busking. And no phones. They own them, obviously. But it must be considered uncouth to pull them out when socializing. The standards are skewed towards face-to-face socializing rather than whatever bullshit we are devolving into here.

Anyway, it really moved me, and that was the moment I really started to think seriously about moving abroad when I retire in two years. Trump or no Trump, there are higher qualities of life in Europe. Sitting in a four hundred year old square listening to a busker, eating a delicious huge lunch with a lager for the equivalent of about $12, and no cell phones anywhere...yeah, it was pretty great.

Depends on where you are, but European private hospitals are FAR from grim, and the cost of private insurance is a comparative bargain for Americans. Cleveland Clinic has one in London, for example. And even if you aren't the doctors are generally excellent and aren't ego-driven.

I had a medical emergency in bumfuck France several years ago and it was incredible, the degree of care I received. I was ambulanced to a nearby hospital and everyone was really wonderful.

Ambulence is not a verb.

a not e**

R51 I live in the UK and have done for 40 years. I've been to Scotland many times. Your fantasies about moving there are nearly as laughable as the idea that you "feel at home there". Each time you mention that to a Scot they are laughing at you the second you walk away. American tourists are never taken seriously.

r51 is some weirdo that was previously put on ignore.

How am I a weirdo, R70? I'm truly flummoxed. WTH? And R69 Why are you such a buzzkill? I'm just a human trying to live my life. I don't mind being your laughing stock but I supposed I don't really understand how I've hurt you that you need to lash out and belittle me.

Can we have Trump deport r67 back to Assholevia?

What’s the deal with Canada? Will they take LGBTQ people for asylum? I hope so.

The fact that so many of you are asking for guidance and advice here (R73 being a particularly silly example) rather than showing some initiative and searching for the relevant information - all available online - speaks volumes.

[quote]are you thinking of getting double penetrated after this election?

FIFY

Yep, I don’t see it in the mirror, but in photos — Lordy!

That semi goiter has to go!

R74, why must you be so cruel?

r77, easy to be hard, easy to be cold.

Hell no! I love Europe but I don't like their taxman.

I can't get dual citizenship -- both sides of my family go back to the late 1600s in PA.

But I [bold]am[/bold] going to leave the country. My plan is to go to Panama; Europe is too expensive for my 2k/mo. "passive income" and I have too little savings for any kind of "investment visa."

I have already begun to gather the necessary paperwork and I'm going to call tomorrow to make an appointment with the consulate in Tampa so I can ask some questions. I know the bureaucracy will be brutal, and the requirements expensive, but that's why I saved some money -- time to bust it out! And I'm actually looking forward to leaving. It will be my last great adventure -- and I've had a few!

Wish me luck.

[quote]What’s the deal with Canada? Will they take LGBTQ people for asylum? I hope so.

Nope. They’re clamping down on immigration and they’re going hard Right. Cabana is QAnon headquarters. Trudeau is leaving.

Good luck, senior lesbian! Do you speak Spanish?

Un poquito, R82. I have always wanted to be fluent and I had four years in high school, but that was in the early 70s! Still, Spanish-speaking people here in FL always tell me I have a lovely accent, and I do know enough to make myself understood if I need to. But I'm far from fluent.

In 2020, I voted early and went to Cancun for three weeks (rented a condo close to Ted Cruz's hotel!). I had a plan then, too -- if Trump won, I was going to stay there, take a CELTA course in Playa del Carmen, and teach English.

While in Cancun, I spoke Spanish to every single Mexican, and they were soooo nice to me! They knew I was trying and they would help me, so we did manage to communicate. I was talking to a young hotel masseuse on his break, and I said to him (in Spanish), "Everyone here is being so nice to me and helping me with my bad Spanish -- don't any Americans ever try to speak to you in Spanish?" He looked at me sadly, shook his head and said, "You're the first one." I get tears in my eyes just typing that. We are ugly Americans!

I spent six years riding motorcycle with the US branch of a worldwide Latin American motorcycle group, so I am familiar with Latino culture. My first gf was Puerto Rican, my last was Brazillian (gorgeous, brilliant, and crazy), and my bff is Puerto Rican. So I'm hoping this is a good choice. We'll see!

Anyone else eyeing Australia?

How can you move to Scotland in two years?

As for people laughing at American tourists--they are laughed at everywhere. I don't expect people to not laugh.

[quote]I'm hoping this is a good choice. We'll see!

I hope it is too. I know you had an "If Trump wins" escape fund, but I didn't think you'd have to use it.

[quote]Depends on where you are, but European private hospitals are FAR from grim, and the cost of private insurance is a comparative bargain for Americans.

That's been my experience. The public health system where I live is very different in its manner of administration -- certainly not inferior, just organized differently. Hospitals are a combination of small, specialty facilities and large campus complexes with preventative care, treatment, testing, routine visits, pharmacy, rehabilitation, and traditional hospital operations separate but well connected. No staff member ever suggests something you've already done or asks about your previous care because your medical records are detailed and available in full detail. The care itself is exceptionally good, and exceptionally kind and patient. Facilities range from very new to renovated older buildings (CAT scans in the city are centralized in a 500 year old monastery hospital, as an unusual example). Doctors and all staff are busy, but approachable and give you their full attention without you having to press for answers; they do not rush you out.

Everyone has general healthcare organized by neighborhood health centers: a generalist physician who can renew any prescriptions, provide general care or refer you to a specialist facility. Routine vaccinations usually occur here.

The only costs are pharmacy costs. Expensive life saving drugs are free, less critical support and temporary treatment drugs available for next to nothing - a few Euros a month. . The system of private pharmacies is extensive, practically one within a block of wherever you are. With a health card, any pharmacy in the country can fill a new prescription, refill an old, or suggest a treatment particular to your symptoms of, say congestion and fever. They are knowledgeable and usually your local pharmacist will know you know well and can always look at your Rx history at a glance. Test costs? Hospital stay bills? Doctor visits? No cost. The idea of charging for an ambulance is shocking.

Private insurance provides access to private health systems and doctors. The advantage is that if some problem arises suddenly you can usually receive treatment that same day. Foreigners living here on visas are usually required to have private insurance for 100% coverage, the cost of which can be up to €1000-2000 a year for a top provider. You may have to shop around for expensive pre-existing conditions; as a last resort the national health will provide insurance or direct care at low cost.

Okay, let's get this straight:

Taxes in Europe aren't the bogeyman you think they are. Yes, VAT (sales tax) can be a pain, but guess what? No state taxes! No property taxes on your house or car (except for those pesky wealth taxes in France). Plus, your taxes actually pay for things like healthcare, a state pension, and decent public services. Consider it an investment, not a burden.

And about those "high" tax rates? They're tiered. You often pay nothing on the first chunk of your income, then it's a gradual climb. Those scary percentages? They only hit the truly wealthy. It's not rocket science.

Frankly, Americans who whine about European taxes are either clueless or too lazy to find out the facts. If you're that obsessed with hoarding every penny, fine, stay put. We don't want you. Europeans tend to value community and things like, you know, not going bankrupt from a broken leg.

[quote]Hell no! I love Europe but I don't like their taxman.

The top U.S. rate is 25% at the federal level. Add sales tax on everything. Add state and local taxes. Add real estate taxes. The result often approaches the "big bite" of European taxes. Property tax in my country is practically nothing, a couple hundred Euros s yest.. There are no equivalents if state and local tax; sales tax is factored into the list price of goods and services. My water bill includes a city fee for street cleaning and related sanitation, maintenance and recycling programs, it's just under €100 annually.

European taxes don't seem such a terrible deal to me, And there's something to be said for the simplicity.

A lot of Americans talk a good game, but can't handle community solidarity or more collective societies. You literally need to put your money where your mouth is, and freak out when the experiential reality hits.

The US has a tax system with tax brackets, each with its own tax rate. These rates range from 10% to 37%.

R84 with all due respect - why do you think that Australia would want you? I see these threads and it does my head in - do you seriously think that just because you are American that countries will roll out the red carpet and say “come in!”?

We have hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world applying for residency in Australia every year - being an American is no big deal, except for you, and certainly is no delineator. Take a number and join the back of a very long line.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but some of you have no grip on reality - being American is nothing special.

I love it when my fellow Americans get what non-US life really is about, and how little being American means at an individual level when navigating their systems.

Can one of you Americans who has traveled and gets it please explain to those of your countrymen that moving to another country involves a little more than:

Australia looks nice with all the kangaroos and they speak American.

OMG I want to move there.

Buy a ticket LAX / SYD.

On arrival in Sydney: “Hi we’re American - where do I sign?”.

Australia's also not some liberal paradise.

Nobody said that it is R95.

What?

'

Australians are very redneck. The country is not some liberal paradise.

When were you last in Australia, R98?

Oh please. we watch reality shows and Kath and Kim. We know what's up .

Assuming that R100 is satire (it can be hard to tell on the DL, especially in the past couple of days) - you’re funny, R100!

If not, this redneck country has a centre left federal government, women’s right to choose what happens to her own body, marriage equality, equal rights for LGBTQ etc citizens and no Supreme Court, overseeing all, especially one stacked by your past and soon to be next President. All voted for by 25 million “rednecks”. Along with one female head of government and multiple female state governors including at one time a female Head of State, the majority of states with female Premiers, a female Governor General and all but one state having a female State Governor.

Come back to me in January if you can say the same. Or when you’ve actually left your square state and visited Australia, but I do understand how scary international travel is for some of you.

Some of you need to realise that you are now skating on thin ice when criticising other countries - you may not have voted for Trump but the majority of your fellow voters did. Sorry about that.

Those born in Puerto Rico, it turns out, have a special path to citizenship in Spain.

The big problem is even Ruorpe is turning rightward

^rightward

A second Trump administration is more like double penetration.

r101 I've been to Australia. On a personal level, you're rather obnoxious and uncouth. Much like American rednecks. Sydney is kind of pretty, though.

R5, you only have seven teeth but they're all bleached a brilliant white, right?

Due to a bureaucratic, paperwork error when I was an exchange student in Sweden in the 1980s, I got permanent residency before I left. My host family was bewildered but told me never to let it expire. Through hard financial times, I always found the money to go to a consulate to renew. After my second renewal in the mid 90s, the Swedish government sent me a permanent residency card with right to work. I’m considering moving there after I retire. I’ll have to look closer now to see if it’s feasible in the next couple years if thing really turn to shit.

[quote] Anyone else eyeing Australia?

The spiders there are too big.

R100 thinks that Kath & Kim is a documentary and his only other point of reference is reality TV. Let me guess - Real Housewives of somewhere?

R100 is not particularly intelligent but sadly representative of much of DL lately.

r109 that poster was being sarcastic, you stupid twat.

This Conde Nast Traveler article was timed for the US elections and outlines the details of getting a second passport either 1.) citizenship by descent, or 2.) Golden Visa or similar investment programs.

It lists only 7 of the easier countries.

It does not address other ways of living long term outside the US, such as non-lucrative visas (proving wealth or income or self-sufficiency above a certain level without taking a good in the host country), education visas, and other residency permits that may lead to the possibility of citizenship or permanent residence.

Canada allows for LGBT asylum seekers.

Wouldn't Canada just tell asylum seekers to move to a blue state?