I don't think the other members of the What's My Line panel liked Dorothy Kilgallen, Part 7

Previous thread.

Audrey Meadows as the mystery guest in 1955, shortly before the debut of the "Classic 39" episodes of "The Honeymooners."

Arlene wears her heart necklace over a pearl necklace. Too much bling?

She forgot to remove one item of jewelry after checking herself in the mirror, R3.

Charles Coburn

It's interesting that while Arlene and Dororthy can enjoy the audience laughter Steve Allen does not.

R6 When the audience laughed at one of Steve’s questions because they knew something he didn’t, he usually gave the audience a perplexed look. It wasn’t due to a lack of humor, based on his hysterical laughter when he found that something was funny on his talk shows (The Tonight Show and later a syndicated talk show). On WML, I think he was trying to understand what in the world the audience was laughing at.

The Weather Lady has haunted eyes as if she is a serial killer victim but good hair.

Fred Astaire as the mystery guest in 1955. When a panelist asks whether he's a singer, he says he is not. Obviously he's primarily remembered as a dancer, but to say that he's not a singer is pretty odd, considering all the times he sang in movies and introduced classic songs. Miss Dorothy registers an objection after his identity is guessed.

I've read that Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, and other composers loved to have Fred sing their songs. Although he's not held in high regard for his voice, they felt his simple singing style highlighted their work better than the renditions by the great singers of the era.

Fred was still a handsome man.

Fred #2

Arlene must have told her hairdresser Make me into Marilyn.

Fed and George Burns had the best toupees in Hollywood.

As we're wrapping things up in this thread, please post your 5 all-time favorite Mystery Guest appearances. Mine would include:

Roz Russell

Ava Gardner

Elizabeth Taylor

Irene Dunne (first appearance)

Robert Wagner (both appearances)

[quote] Feel free to share any final thoughts.

[quote] As we're wrapping things up in this thread

Now wait a minute, OP and R15, I’m not done asking my questions.

Was that a no?

When Fred exited in the clip at R12 we had a rare glimpse of the camera to the right of the panel! And a stagehand.

In regards to fave Mystery Guests, my two are also Rosalind Russell, and Judy.

Roz is hilarious in response to Dorothy's question, Are you under 48.

A quick appearance by Arlene Frantic...

Judy

Michael Redgrave.

The Lifeguard got wolf whistles. Have not heard those in a while in clips.

"What's My Line?" audiences, in the earlier days, were pretty generous with their wolf whistles. I think even Eleanor Roosevelt might have gotten a few.

Johnny Carson was just so damn cute! Even before he had those ears fixed.

Fun reference to Vanessa Redgrave at the end of r22. Her dad was mighty cute, too.

Mrs. Frankel doesn't go with the product darling.

Natasha Lytess. aka Tala Forman.

I love how she dresses DOWN for the show.

You can easily see how Natasha would drive MM's directors crazy.

Any wolf whistles for Natasha??

Marilyn lookalike Toni West.

Natasha is Miss Frump of 1954 but you can imagine Marilyn saying how beautiful she is.

In that clip, Natasha is beautiful and gracious.

Where's Boris Badenov?

Damn! Robert Preston at R31 is really handsome with a mustache.

For those who like to keep track of such things, the show aired on March 17, 1957.

Natasha Lytess was on the same episode as Alfred Hitchcock.

Lee Meriwether.

Here's one with a mystery guest I've never heard of. She seems like a bit of a character and has her dog with her the entire time. I suspect that the show realized that she wasn't all that famous, because "Famous Ice Skating Star" is superimposed on the screen as she signs in.

R25- Johnny Carson was quite good looking in the 1960's- slim and good looking which is just my type. I was never into muscular guys and most especially not into bears. I can like slim and hairy but not fat of any kind.

Wiki

R35 - here's the whole show.

Norman Vicent Peale reminds me that a stripper used to use the stage name "Norma Vincent Peel."

Re r38, that was the first MG segment in which they allowed the panelists only one question at a time, which I think was a huge improvement in the game because it didn't allow Dorothy the opportunity to hog the segment. I'm surprised it took them until 1955 to figure out how it would improve the pacing of the game.

Those references to Godfrey and "fire" I assume were about Arthur Godfrey's notorious firing of Julius LaRosa from his daily TV show? Or did Godfrey fire a lot of people?

Interesting how the final contestant was a beautifully statuesque woman (who resembled Ava Gardner) but got NO wolf whistles or catcalls when she signed in. Had Johnny Olsen fallen asleep??

And the naval submarine guy was very handsome! I could see why Dorothy thought he might be some kind of a performer.

I didn't know who that scott woman was either. I'll always hate her for bringing her dog though.

FU, R44

[quote]Those references to Godfrey and "fire" I assume were about Arthur Godfrey's notorious firing of Julius LaRosa from his daily TV show? Or did Godfrey fire a lot of people?

I'm quite sure that must have been a reference to Godfrey's firing of Julius La Rosa, R43, which was a huge scandal at the time. Godfrey not only fired him, he fired him while the show was on the air, and he announced the firing to his audience. I'm sure Godfrey fired a lot of people along the way. Despite his folksy demeanor, he was known to be a major asshole and very difficult to work for. But his firing of LaRosa was unusually cruel. I wonder sometimes whether "A Face in the Crowd" was at least partially inspired by Godfrey.

Julius LaRosa

and again

The lovely Barbara Ann Scott...

Who said this is to be the last of the What's My Line threads?? The show is as endlessly fascinating as Miss Arlene Francis herself.

Of all the Mystery Guests I've seen, my favorites are Rosalind Russell, Debbie Reynolds (any and all of her appearances), Elizabeth Taylor, and Burns and Allen.

[quote]Who said this is to be the last of the What's My Line threads?? The show is as endlessly fascinating as Miss Arlene Francis herself.

I'm the OP of this thread and some of the other threads in this series. I didn't mean to sound dictatorial. I thought that maybe interest was finally waning and that maybe a Part 7 wasn't needed. And, initially, Part 7 wasn't getting much of a response. But then things picked up, as they tend to do when it comes to America's favorite game show. But I'm perfectly happy to see these threads continue. In the future, I won't be apologetic about new WML threads.

In R48 the host mixes up the intro for Dorothy and Arlene. Outrageous!

Poor Stubby sweating on camera.

So those 2 clips are La Rosa before and after the firing. I don't think his career ever really recovered. Or was he never really that popular? I'm not really up on him.

I didn't see her dog wearing skates.

La Rosa was a household name just for being a part of Arthur Godfrey's stable of regulars. He was a nice young man who had a nice Lana Turner-like showbiz storyline (his Navy buddies got him in front of Godfrey, an ex-Navy man himself, for an audition and Godfrey hired him as soon as he was discharged). He had several records that had moderate success on the charts.

After his notorious on-air firing, he was pretty hot for a few years. He signed a contract with Ed Sullivan for regular appearances on his show, had several records in the top ten, and even got his own show for a while. Meanwhile, Godfrey's reputation took a huge hit. So La Rosa came out on top of the situation.

He was more vers than top.

But why did Godfrey fire La Rosa?

Godfrey felt betrayed that Julius hired a personal agent and manager.

Godfrey felt threatened because Julius had become more popular than him.

The horror, the horror.

Godfrey also fired Archie Bleyer.

Laverne & Shirley were big La Rosa fans. He appeared in one episode.

The Orange Julius was the Official Drink of the 1964 New York World’s Fair.

I just thought I'd mention that.

[quote] Godfrey felt betrayed that Julius hired a personal agent and manager.

R59 Wait, performers had agents and managers long before the Godfrey show existed. Did Godfrey slice off 20% of what he would have paid his talent by not allowing them to have agents and managers, with the excuse that it would have gone to an agent and manager anyway? In addition, agents negotiate higher pay for their clients. It’s easy to see why Godfrey was considered to be an asshole employer.

Archie Bleyer became Arthur Godfrey's musical director in 1946, remaining in this role until 1953. Many close to Godfrey considered Bleyer's creativity and understanding of music to be pivotal to the success of Godfrey's radio and TV programs

Arthur Godfrey #1

Going on the audience reaction Godfrey was much beloved, though it looks like he's wearing a rug.

Godfrey was, in fact, much beloved in his day, R68. The truth about him didn't come out until much later, but his firing of LaRosa did his reputation no favors.

It occurred to me that the perp walk of the early episodes had the guests exit behind John Daly and the removal of the walk allowed for guests to say goodnight to the panel at the end of their match.

[quote] La Rosa was a household name just for being a part of Arthur Godfrey's stable of regulars. He was a nice young man who had a nice Lana Turner-like showbiz storyline (his Navy buddies got him in front of Godfrey, an ex-Navy man himself, for an audition and Godfrey hired him as soon as he was discharged).

R56 How is that storyline like Lana Turner's?

Arthur Godfrey #2.

Sorry but Kitty Carlisle and Phyllis Newman are no Dorothy and Arlene.

Arthur Godfrey was the 1990s Regis Philbin of the 1950s.

[quote]How is that storyline like Lana Turner's?

Maybe Julius was wearing a tight sweater.

[quote]Sorry but Kitty Carlisle and Phyllis Newman are no Dorothy and Arlene.

Leave Kitty alone. She was indispensable for many years to another Goodson and Todman classic.

Can't believe no one has commented on the SUPER-CUTE rose grower from Nottingham, England at the end of r72! Before his occupation was revealed I thought for sure he must be with some boy band.

At r72, Bennett introduced Kitty Carlisle as a girl and then Phyllis Newman referred to herself as a girl. This was 1965. Things were about to change! Well, maybe not for Bennett.

Arthur Godfrey got tumultuous applause on his entrance. Surprised me as I would have thought by 1965, he was long passe.

[quote]Arthur Godfrey got tumultuous applause on his entrance. Surprised me as I would have thought by 1965, he was long passe.

In 1966, Godfrey played Doris Day's father in "The Glass Bottom Boat."

But that was a year after that 1965 WML appearance, r79. So maybe he was beginning a comeback?

I think "The Glass Bottom Boat" was pretty much the extent of his comeback. He came to prominence on a radio station in Washington, D.C., in the 1930s.

R8 He was in a few other films and did commercials, endorsements.

He was spokesman for Chrysler for a few years in the 1970s and did many commercials for them.

Godfrey made one more film, the ever-popular-on-Datalounge Where Angels Go, Trouble Follows in 1968.

I fucking hate Phyllis Newman. She stunk up every show she was on.

The seemingly genuine popularity of Arthur Godfrey & Joan Crawford among the hosts & celebrity panelists puzzles me. I would’ve thought they, if not the general public, had a better sense of who they really were.

They're still better than the dumb ass who brought her dog on.

Mrs. Richard Carlson was there?

R85, I think they were just being politic. Godfrey and Crawford were beloved by most people, and there was nothing to be gained by rocking that boat. I'm sure they were very different in private.

Dorothy and Joan were great friends.

^^^ They would be.

I can just imagine Dorothy being obsequious to Joan.

Joan was a "friend of Dorothy."

Dorothy also seemed the type to cover her upholstery in clear plastic.

R77 - yes he was cute. But Phyllis' hair was a mess in that show.

Someone reported that Godrey's return to the show when Dorothy was not on was no accident. He detested her; the two of them had been knocking pieces off of each other publicly for years. One of TV history books reports that publicly Godfrey called Dorothy a liar or words to that effect.

[quote]Arthur Godfrey got tumultuous applause on his entrance. Surprised me as I would have thought by 1965, he was long passe.

Godfrey was long past his heyday in 1965, like some of the other stars who appeared, but he had been a very big deal in his time. The audience would have been applauding for him out of fond remembrance of his past career more than for his current activities (although he was still active, as others have pointed out).

R88, didn't JCD have some connection with or gratitude to Godfrey from his early radio days in DC? As for the panel, I can't imagine Arlene and Bennett being anything but warm and polite to Joan Crawford or Arthur Godfrey. Unless they had been personally hurt by one of the two stars, why wouldn't they be?

In R72 Daly credits Godfrey for being his mentor in radio.

[quote]I fucking hate Phyllis Newman. She stunk up every show she was on.

"And Phyllis Newman will have to do as Stella."

Arthur Godfrey as panelist.

He and Dorothy must have gotten past their mutual hatred going from this episode.

Is this fucking thread ever going to end?

Only when the last boomer passes the scene, R101.

When people here talk about how the audience reacts, surely they must realize not every audience reacts in the same way. One group of people may have been more subdued or raucous than another. It might not even have to do with who the star was.

[quote]Godfrey was long past his heyday in 1965, like some of the other stars who appeared, but he had been a very big deal in his time. The audience would have been applauding for him out of fond remembrance of his past career

Oh c'mon. By 1965 his TV show had been off the air only 5 years. He was still appearing on TV. Still doing commercials into the 1970s: Chrysler, Colgate, Viitar, Lipton. Still had a popular network radio show.

He was on WML? in 1963, 1964, 1966.

Also did "I've Got a Secret".

Did Password.

He did the Ed Sullivan show a number of times in the 1960s.

He hosted "The Hollywood Palace" (and sang with the Mamas and Papas!)

Etc. and Etc. In the 1960s he was still all over TV.

For the Glass Bottom Boat his name was above the title along with Doris Day and Rod Taylor. Day was the biggest box office female star at the time.

Some of you are acting like the guy was washed up by the 1960s. Stop rewriting history.

I was a kidback then and had to put up with seeing the guy everywhere and having to change the channel as fast as I could.

Nobody cared if Arthur Godfrey was in The Glass Bottom Boat or not. The success of it was not riding on his participation.

He had a radio show on CBS that didn't go off the air until 1972. It had a studio audience. I heard it once or twice.

(Morning show.)

[quote]Nobody cared if Arthur Godfrey was in The Glass Bottom Boat or not. The success of it was not riding on his participation.

I'm sure his casting was carefully considered.

Doris Day should have carefully considered, before agreeing to do this turkey.

Actually it was a box-office success.

Did Rick reel that Boat movie?

R109 That didn't make it good. Vincent Canby, NY Times:

[quote] FRANK TASHLIN, one of the few Hollywood directors to pursue the slapstick muse, may some day make a really funny film, full of outrageous sight gags, mistaken identities and lunatic chases. In the meantime, you can chalk up as another frantic failure The Glass Bottom Boat, the new Doris Day vehicle that chugged into the Music Hall yesterday, and promptly sank.

I admit I have some fondness for this movie because it's one of the first ones I ever remember seeing (at the drive-in) but it's stupid.

[quote]Actually it was a box-office success.

Only because it had Paul Lynde in drag.

Doris Day's film career never recovered from The Glass Bottom Boat.

Speaking of DD, she made two rare TV appearances on WML as MG in the mid-1950s, then swore off TV until she starred in her own sit-com more than a decade later.

I think her subsequent films were hits.

[quote]Is this fucking thread ever going to end?

I certainly hope not. Perhaps you shouldn't click on it if it bothers you so much.

[quote]Doris Day's film career never recovered from The Glass Bottom Boat.

What are you talking about?

No matter what the critics thought of it, the film was a box office success.

Her previous film and her next one, Caprice, lost money.

"Where Were You When the Lights Went Out?: was a hit.

Her last film "With Six You Get Eggroll"": "the film went on to gross $10,095,200 at the box office according to Variety and the box office website The Numbers, making it one of the top ten moneymaking films of Day's 39-film career"

Frankly, r116, that's a shock to my misguided ancient old brain as I would have sworn that all 4 of these DD films were flops.

The only Doris Day film from her post-Pillow Talk period that still holds up for me is Please Don't Eat the Daisies. The sexual innuendo in all the rest has really dated badly (if it was ever fun).

We've seen then-Congressman John Lindsay before as a panelist (from 1964). Here he is again as a panelist, this time in 1965.

I love the episodes when the celebrity's voice is just too well known to fool anyone. No matter what the celebrity did. One like John Wayne, Bette Davis, and especially Lucy. I love watching the panel do a wink and nod and pretend they don't know who it is to keep the segment on longer.

Speaking of which I would have thought that even with that falsetto fey voice he put on, Robert Mitchum would have been recognized at r119, but.....no. What a helluva guy he was!

The Thrill of It All is a pretty good latter Day film.

[quote]I love the episodes when the celebrity's voice is just too well known to fool anyone. No matter what the celebrity did.

That was certainly the case when Eleanor Roosevelt was the mystery guest. John Daly answered the questions for her. I guess that, given her stature, they couldn't have just handed her a bulb horn and told her squeeze it once for yes and twice for no.

The nail polish maker in R119 is handsome.

Robert Mitchum certainly did make records. He wrote and sang the title song to his 1958 movie Thunder Road which made the charts. He also wrote Whippoorwill a lilting and lovely song that Keely Smith sang in the same film. He also recorded a full album of Calypso music.

Earlier Mitchum.

The diaper service manager segment is very funny. As is Bennett saying Mitchum's fans having blood-curdling screams.

I really loved the way Elizabeth Taylor disguised her voice in this 1954 episode.

No one was a funnier MG than Elizabeth Taylor. It's shocking that MGM never starred her in any comedies.

Roz and Debbie Reynolds were funnier. Not to say that Elizabeth wasn't funny as hell.

I had never noticed that, R129! I never cared much for her as a dramatic actress -but really enjoyed her when she was doing comedy (The Flintstones and parts of A Little Night Music).

I wonder how she would have done in a revival of Auntie Mame? Or in the Angela Lansbury role in Death On The Nile?

Gotta say I was way ahead of the panel on the diaper guy (I purposely hid my eyes when it was first revealed). Really couldn't believe it took them that long to zero in on the product. But it sure was funny.

R129 A Date With Judy, Julia Misbehaves, Father of the Bride, The Big Hangover, Father's Little Dividend. Love is better Than Ever.

The whole show.

Elizabeth is also funny mimicking Michael Caine's cockney accent in X Y and Zee.

She was 22 in that R128 and R134 episode.

r133, I don't think Liz had a single funny line in any one of those comedies.

So, yes, you're right she did appear in some MGM comedies, but she was always the straight man and never showed the flair she exhibited on WML. Never allowed to be goofy.

I don't think what a person does on a game show reflects their ability to act in a certain genre. If she had a lot of comic ability she would have been in more comedies (post-MGM, as well).

That's rather naive, R138. Hollywood (and all of show business, really) tends to typecast people, and seldom gives them opportunities to go beyond that typecasting. Ingrid Bergman was adept at comedy -but she was always getting cast as overly-serious characters. How many years was Carol Burnett in the business before she was allowed to tackle a non-comedic, dramatic role? It's endemic in our system. Look at how homogenized our musical acts are these days. The system doesn't look for new, different, or unexpected. They pigeon-hole people as rapidly as possible and then keep them there.

That's one of the reasons I love WML, the opportunity to see those big Hollywood movie stars goofing around like kids, disguising their voices and being silly and real. A much more real glimpse of them than the public ever got to see in the 1950s and 60s.

I probably mentioned it in one the previous WML threads, but Robert Wagner is another star who showed comic abilities in his 2 MG appearances than he ever showed on screen, even in comedies.

And it's a reason I find Roz and Debbie just slightly less amusing MGs - I expect them to be as funny as they were.

R129 never saw Father of the Brude!

Or of the Bride!

Elizabeth became an adult when Dore Schary took over MGM after they outed Louis B Mayer. Schary was not interested in nurturing the studios stars so she may have gotten better roles if Mayer was still around.

Sal Maglie, Ann Miller.

Oh yeah, Elizabeth Taylor was just hilarious in that raucous comedy Father of the Bride! I can't believe it didn't lead to more comic roles.

7 threads about Dorothy Kilgallen?

I love this place.

I love Ann Miller.

Ann Miller is so adorable in that clip! The panel had no idea. I wonder what TV show she had guested on in the past 48 hours?

"Dore Schary took over MGM after they outed Louis B Mayer. "

Louis B. Mayer was gay????

Baseball really was the most important sport in the 1950s and early 60s. WML loved those baseball players. Rizzuto, Maglie, Berra, Garagiola...

There were so fewer distractions back before the internet was invented. Less options but it was a lot healthier.

[quote]7 threads about Dorothy Kilgallen? I love this place.

Well, about Dorothy, yes, but really about the original run of "What's My Line" on Sunday nights from 1950 to1967, which was essentially a microcosm of daily life, culture, celebrity, politics and attitudes of the 1950s and early '60s. As such, it's endlessly fascinating. Plus, Arlene Francis!

R149 - ok. Fired. Is that better?

Phil Silvers.

Phil Silvers was one of the nicest men in showbusiness. And funniest.

That bill collector got whistles even before she was on camera.

R139 Maybe you're right, but having acted I've noticed that because someone is funny offstage, it doesn't mean they can act in comedy. Conversely, some people who are great at comedy are not particularly funny offstage.

Bette Davis was very funny on some talk shows, but for the most part, she wasn't good trying to do comedies that other actresses (Rosalind Russell) could do in their sleep (June Bride, for example). Why not? I don't know. She didn't have the innate ability, lightness, timing to do light comedy well. (She was funny in All About Eve, though--in an essentially sarcastic role.)

R145 Maybe Taylor wasn't funny in Father of the Bride but it certainly was a funny movie.

Also R157 some people who are known comics are just terrible on WML. I'm not sure even Phil Silvers is funny taking bites from an apple as his answers.

Julie Harris, Maximilian Schell, Mary Martin, Howard Keel, Barbara Harris, Joan Blondell, Alfred Drake, Gloria Grahame, Shirley Jones, George Sanders, Ann Baxter, Geraldine Page, Glenn Ford, Eleanor Powell, just a few stars who I wish appeared on WML but I don't think ever did.

Unless it was on the syndicated show?

Oh, how I would have loved to see Barbara Harris! I can just imagine the voice she might have used and the off-the-wall answers she might have given. The woman was just so damned talented!

I've sometimes wondered if some celebs refused the MG gig because they were afraid of appearing foolish or afraid that the panelists wouldn't guess their identity.

[quote] Shirley Jones ... I wish appeared on WML but I don't think ever did.

In 1962 ...

and 1968.

I don't think that Sergeant Marine at r163 fooled anybody.

Anita Gillette and Shirley Jones are both so wonderfully dressed and coiffed at r164! 1968 fashion perfection in glorious color. That makeup! Arlene looks pretty, too.

And would Anita's green nail polish tell us that she was then starring in Cabaret on Broadway?

Have to say though, the syndicated version was just deadly dull.

Agreed about how dreary the syndicated WML was. As was the syndicated IGaS of the early ‘70s. In contrast, the contemporary syndicated TTTT was quite good.

R160 - Geraldine Page

r157 - Rosalind's comic gifts were as great as Bette's dramatic ones. Roz *owns* Hildy, Ruth and Mame.

I have to laugh when Abe Burrows says he is not used to such hostility. And he worked in the theatre!

All that constant horrid cigarette smoke from Abe Burrows......disgusting! I know it was a different time but still, it seems so rude and self-absorbed. Dorothy and Arlene's hair must have stunk by 11 pm. Abe didn't have any, so he needn't worry.

I wonder if Arlene was recovering from her notorious auto accident in the segment at r168? She looked to be wearing a sling under her cape.

I thought so too as that happened in May.

In the Geraldine Page segment Arlene says her concussion is catching up with her.

"All that constant horrid cigarette smoke from Abe Burrows......disgusting! I know it was a different time but still, it seems so rude and self-absorbed."

Back then, smoking was the norm, and non-smokers had no say in anything. Doctors did cigarette commercials. And, yes, everything stank. We've come a long way, baby!

Joan Blondell was on the show October 29 1950 but it appears the episode is lost.

Joan's sister Gloria!

I wonder if Arlene’s concussion led to her Alzheimer’s.

Shirley Jones wasn't guessed by the panel during either of her appearances. How embarrassing for her.

She and her career survived, somehow.

George Sanders was on twice.

#2.

[quote] George Sanders was on twice.

And he married two Gabor sisters, Zsa Zsa & Magda.

And he had two testicles.

I remember Gloria Blondell as Honeybee Gillis, sexy neighbor on THE LIFE OF RILEY starring former WML MG William Bendix as Chester Riley. Gloria was my first Blondell, didn't even know Joan existed until later in life.

Thank you to the posters who are so generously linking segments of the MGs who I'd thought never appeared on WML.

I'm sure there's nothing online of Mary Martin ever appearing on WML but I do wonder if she did and it's one of the lost episodes. Or maybe, she preferred her Sundays off.

The show is not on Mary Martin's IMDb page with her as a guest.

George Sanders sings.

I first knew of Joan Blondell from the TV show Here Come The Brides.

[quote]And he married two Gabor sisters, Zsa Zsa & Magda.

No wonder he offed himself.

R182 EDS Wiki

[quote]She and her career survived, somehow.

I don't recall suggesting that Shirley Jones's career suffered because of her dud appearances as a mystery guest.

I let Elizabeth Taylor come on my show for booze money. The bitch wasn’t funny!

The syndicated panel, even Arlene, came off like idiot hicks trying to guess Shirley Jones. They didn't seem up on anything current on Broadway or otherwise. And I believe Anita Gilette and Orson Bean were currently appearing on Broadway.

For the R182 show Arlene must have told her hairstylist - give me the Joan Blondell.

R192 You said "How embarrassing for her." I'm saying I doubt she was embarrassed. You're presuming.

R194, yes, but missing Shirley Jones in 1962 is quite a failure because at the time she was starring in the movie version of The Music Man, which had just opened two months earlier and was a big success. No one asked the usual “is one of your pictures currently playing on Broadway”, or they might have gotten it,

Why do you suppose Shirley Jones stumped them both times? In 1962, besides The Music Man, she'd even just won an Oscar for Elmer Gantry.

Shirley was not really a "big" star at the time. She had been on Broadway and was a favorite of Rodgers & Hammerstein, who got her into the lead of two major movies based on their shows (Oklahoma, Carousel), but other than that her movie career prior to 1962 consisted of April Love (co-starring Pat Boone), Never Steal Anything Small (a semi-musical with James Cagney). an English movie called Bobbikins (about an infant who talks like an adult). Elmer Gantry (the Oscar role), a cameo in the all-star Pepe, and Two Rode Together (a John Ford western that wasn't very successful). She also did TV anthologies. Her movie career didn't take off from winning an Oscar, or after The Music Man, either. Before long she was back in TV, mainly.

Shirley Jones was just too bland. Pretty, but bland. And her soprano was rather mediocre.

But she wasn't fat.

I remember seeing her in A Ticklish Affair (1963) on TCM, an MGM movie about a widow in San Diego whose kids "inadvertently send an SOS while playing with their uncle Cy's Navy Signal Lamp, the Navy sends their top man to investigate and he falls for their mother." It sounds like a Doris Day-James Garner movie plot, but had Shirley and Gig Young, instead. Shirley played kind of a pseudo-Doris Day part in The Courtship Of Eddie's Father the same year, as well.

She was cast in Pocketful of Miracles by Frank Capra but was replaced by Hope Lange at Glenn Ford's insistence (Ford was the co-producer and Hope was his girlfriend).

It was really The Partridge Family that made her famous for a younger generation. Otherwise she probably would have been relatively forgotten by that generation, like, say, movie sopranos Jane Powell or Ann Blyth.

Ann Blyth will NEVER be forgotten as long as "Mildred Pierce" is around!

Shirley was also in the original Dirty Rotten Scoundrels with Marlon Brando and David Niven. Or was the movie called something else in that version?

Bedtime Story.

R203 You're right. Forgive me, Veda!

Ah, yes, that's right. Thanks, r205.

I like Shirley immensely but when you see Elmer Gantry now it's a shock Jean Simmons (who was great) didn't get a Best Actress nomination, and Shirley's supporting turn as the hooker is good, for her (because she always played a different type), but not really great. Kind of theatrical, where normally she was realistic.

Failing to get Shirley says more about the panel that night, than about her. She teed up the answers and they didn’t connect obvious dots. Arlene musing it might be Roz shows *they* were having a bad night. Too much pre-gaming….

I agree, R209. Shirley was not the most larger-than-life personality, nor was she notorious for being a diva or having a scandalous personal life. However, not only was she starring in a hit movie based on a long-running Broadway musical that was playing in first-run theaters at the time, she had been on Broadway, had starred in a previous hit movie based on a Broadway musical, and had won an Academy Award the year before. She was a big star and quite popular with the public; certainly she was at least as big a star as Mitzi Gaynor (whom Arlene hilariously guessed).

It's the failure to ask that key "are you in a current movie" question that led to the panel's failure. They were all over the map, naming people who had been in 2-3 year-old movies instead of focusing on what what playing right then, in August 1962. If they had done that, I think they would have gotten to Shirley Jones' name pretty quickly. Also, was Shirley living in LA at that point? The panel seemed to have a bit of a blind spot about LA-based celebs.

Incidentally, both Shirley and MItzi are still alive at the ages of 90 and 92, respectively.

[quote]but other than that her movie career prior to 1962 consisted of April Love (co-starring Pat Boone)

Those two are still around.

I wish they'd get together for Late December Love!

FWIW Shirley had not yet appeared on Broadway when she was the Mystery Guest in 1962.

However, I believe she was then currently married to Jack Cassidy who was very much a Broadway theatre fixture, leading me to think that the Cassidys must have lived in NYC for much of the year and hobnobbed with Broadway types like Arlene and Martin.

[quote]Incidentally, both Shirley and MItzi are still alive at the ages of 90 and 92, respectively.

As is Ann Blyth, at age 96.

A HYSTERICAL, CRYING LAUGHING Panel!

Claudette Colbert looked terrific in that episode, R214. And I think everyone loved the pandemonium Groucho caused when he visited the show, except maybe Dorothy who took the game so seriously.

R215 Groucho knew Arlene had a much better sense of humor than Dorothy. So did the ventriloquist Paul Winchell, when he had his “dummy” Jerry Mahoney go after Arlene on several shows when they were on the panel. Imagine what Dorothy’s reaction would have been if a hand puppet had been all over her. No, don’t even imagine it; it’s too ewwww!

I don't think Groucho was a good fit for the show. He really wasn't interested in playing the game unlike when was on You Bet Your Life. The only funny moment for me was when Dorothy got fuddled by Groucho about the lady wrestler and sex.

[quote]Shirley played kind of a pseudo-Doris Day part in The Courtship Of Eddie's Father

Were you in a movie where you stuck a thermometer up Ronny Howard’s rectum?

Are you Shirley Jones?

[quote]Were you in a movie where you stuck a thermometer up Ronny Howard’s rectum?

Does it have to have been in a movie?

Funny moments.

The nudist camp contestants have some of the funniest lines ever.

Do nudist camps still exist? I mean, they must, right? Yet one never hears about them anymore.

4 Aussie nudist campgrounds where you can bare all

FWIW Shirley had not yet appeared on Broadway when she was the Mystery Guest in 1962.

R212 IBDB says she was in South Pacific.

South Pacific (Apr 07, 1949 - Jan 16, 1954) Performer: Shirley Jones Ensign Sue Yaeger - Replacement

Playbill says she was also in Me & Juliet, but IBDB doesn't. Wikipedia says she was in the Chicago company of M & J.

Chicago is not the legitimate theatre, r224.

And you do realize those South Pacific dates are the dates of the entire run of the production, not Shirley's time as a replacement?

R225 Of course I realize that, Miss Francis. Do you think I'm an idiot? The point is she was in South Pacific on Broadway sometimes during its run. Probably late in its run, since she was born in 1934.

[quote] Her first audition was for an open bi-weekly casting call held by John Fearnley, casting director for Rodgers and Hammerstein and their various musicals. At the time, Jones had never heard of Rodgers and Hammerstein. Fearnley was so impressed, he ran across the street to fetch Richard Rodgers, who was rehearsing with an orchestra for an upcoming musical. Rodgers then called Oscar Hammerstein at home. The two saw great potential in Jones. She became the first and only singer to be put under personal contract with the songwriters. They first cast her in a minor role in South Pacific. For her second Broadway show, Me and Juliet, she started as a chorus girl, and then an understudy for the lead role, earning rave reviews in Chicago.

*Sometime

Nevertheless, Shirley Jones's Broadway credits in 1962 would hardly have been known or remembered by the panel.

R228 Nobody said they would.

I wrote, in R199:

[quote] Shirley was not really a "big" star at the time. She had been on Broadway and was a favorite of Rodgers & Hammerstein, who got her into the lead of two major movies based on their shows (Oklahoma, Carousel), but other than that her movie career prior to 1962 consisted of April Love (co-starring Pat Boone)...

Then 212 said:

[quote] FWIW Shirley had not yet appeared on Broadway when she was the Mystery Guest in 1962.

So I was merely correcting R212 who had tried to correct me.

Yea, dem bums don’t know Oscar from nuttin’

But, r229, my response was all in the context of why the panel might not have guessed her identity in 1962. As I said: For Whatever It's Worth. I was not correcting you and I'm sorry if you took offense.

R231 I didn't take any offense. I said she had appeared on Broadway. You said she had not yet appeared on Broadway when she was the mystery guest in 1962, which is incorrect.

OK, you win! Go to bed happy (for a change), r232.

R233 Haha, you act like I was arguing with you, but you were the one who took exception to what I wrote in the first place. I didn't/don't want any argument.

Since we are on Shirley Jones does anyone know why she was not in the run for the film of South Pacific? She is younger than Mitzi.

[quote]She is younger than Mitzi.

But is she younger than springtime?

Was the film of Carousel a disappointment after the film of Oklahoma? I don't know but perhaps R&H felt like they needed some new blood after 2 with Shirley. I don't think they would have wanted to be yoked to her again and again and again no matter how much they liked her.

Tony Thomas and Aubrey Solomon's book on Fox says Carousel was a box office flop.

But not younger than springtime

[quote]Tony Thomas and Aubrey Solomon's book on Fox says Carousel was a box office flop.

Probably because they gave away the ending in the first five minutes of the movie.

Carousel is a good musical but it didn’t fit into the “Technicolor” world of 1950s musicals. The movie comes across as hokey.

r239 Really?

More funny moments.

Watching all of the DNC stuff now and remembering hearing, at least in the 1950s episodes, when members of the panel and the occasional MG would talk about being at those conventions, though, of course, some were at the RNCs.

I guess it's safe to assume that Arlene and Bennett were Democrats. But was Dorothy known to be a Republican? Or maybe not....and what about JCD?

JCD was a conservative Republican. But I'm sure he'd be on Team Harris this year.

R243 From what I’ve read, Dorothy was a Republican, but she adored JFK after she and her younger son met with him. I gather that was one of the reasons she so doggedly pursued the issue of who was behind the killing of JFK and how Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald.

[quote]Dorothy was a Republican, but she adored JFK after she and her younger son met with him.

Dorothy thought she stood a chance. JFK had already slept with half of Washington DC. He was ready for a brainy New York girl.

Was the stance on issues back then (1950s/early 60s) not so radically different that many voters tended to vote more for the candidate they liked than sticking strictly with one party over another?

R247, a commitment to negotiate and compromise about fundamental matters was built into the system at the time, partly from post-WWII effects that included the Sino/Soviet issue and established political norms extending to the 19th century. Democrats could work with Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, and even Reagan on critical domestic and international matters. The GOP worked with Kennedy and Johnson, although the Tea Party, Gingrich and everything since has been aimed to the present Donald fascist collapse of Lincoln's titular party. Just remember, though, the demonization of the Clintons and Obamas and the filth sprayed out in every election. Aim Lower has been the GOP's campaign. Make it worse and we'll keep their votes and we'll keep raking in the the dough.

It's now a future-looking USA or an obstructed, drained, controlled and violent remnant. Joking about a civil war doesn't change what has been happening.

Congress then was still dominated by members of the old Solid South, segregationist Democrats. So the great divide, at least for civil rights-related issues, was then not between the parties, but by geography.

Zzzz

The CRA and VRA were passed by a coalition of northern Democrats and liberal Republicans, finally breaking the filibusters led by southern Democrats (supported by conservative Republicans).

I wonder if Arlene Frances knew that.

The Solid South was so engrained in Arlene's heyday that I doubt she then ever entertained the thought of a political environment that would ever change.

I never thought politics would make its way into this thread and it's fine but can we get back to talking about showbiz please?

Against my better judgment - here's Danny Kaye.

R255 That was great. I laughed out loud a few times.

The parachute jumper is hot.

Danny Kaye #2 as panelist

I don't think there's been a hotter Elmer ever than that parachute jumper. I wonder if the Rices were aware of playwright Elmer Rice when they named their son Elmer?

That poodle clipper at r258 is pretty darn hot, too! Daddy!

I wonder why he was so nervous.

I have to laugh when they asked him if he preferred being on the show to doing his job, and he said being on the show.

The balloon guy was cute too.

Danny K $3

Why did John make such a point of saying what a great person Danny is, such a wonderful human being, whenever he was on? I know he did a huge amount for UNICEF, etc. but even though I'm a big Danny Kaye fan I know there are many stories about his moodiness and huge ego. John praised most stars, but he just seems in these clips to sincerely gush so much over how lovable and wonderful a person Danny is.

[quote]Why did John make such a point of saying what a great person Danny is

He knew about the affair between Danny and Laurence Olivier and wanted in on the action.

Danny K #4

R265 Okay, so nobody has a real answer.

I think Daly did so as a form of apology for Kaye not playing the game. They should never have agreed to his condition that he would only appear if he could lie as the guest. There are moments where you can see how mean Kaye really is.

[quote] I think Daly did so as a form of apology for Kaye not playing the game.

Yes, I see your point, but he also seems to sincerely mean it.

To be honest--to me, anyway--he seems to be acting more devilish or prankish than actually mean. I think it was a good idea, it broke things up, and was a little different from the same old thing. It was actually pretty funny.

The funniest part for me is when Bennett asks Dorothy and Tony Randall why they are banging on the desk.

Do you think Yves Saint Laurent is wearing a wig?

Buddy Hackett actually made me laugh for once when he said why should I wear a mask when I wouldn't recognize Yves Saint Laurent.

By the mid 60s sophisticated men who had thick hair styled it to look like a wig, r271. Women, too.

Johnny Carson - so cute at r263! And Othol the Onion Grower was kind of hot in his way, too.

I only had time to watch the YSL segment. Really, that show is just so darn charming.

I love the way Arlene bailed out John with her explanation of how to pronounce the name of the perfume "Y" ...."or if you like the perfume you could pronounce it "Why Not"!"

That perfume BTW, that Yves was introducing in NY back in 1965, is still in production.

One of the panelists (was it Johnny?), in trying to determine what Yves' "product" was, asked if it was sprayed on and his answer was no. I guess the perfume wasn't being sold quite yet.

Danny K #5

One commentator noted there is tension between Arlene and Sue Oakland.

Maybe from the start when Martin describes Sue as one of the most remarkable combinations of IQ and beauty ever to appear on the show. And Arlene is looking offstage when Sue enters!

The chimp trainer looks like Cheryl Ladd.

I love Arlene but she was the Adorable Witty Girl on the panel, and I imagine after Dorothy's death, she was wary of the cutesy Phyllis Newman and maybe even Sue Oakland (who was quite beautiful but not particularly adorable or witty).

Arlene was probably far more comfortable when the bitchy KIlgallenesque Suzy (Aileen Mehle) guest paneled.

The panel all seemed to know and adore CT Dem Senator Ribicoff, even Republican John Charles Daly.

Wiki

Abe was Hottttttt!

Pre-Senate, Abe Ribicoff was in JFK's cabinet, but in history is probably best remembered for using his speech at the "68 DNC to challenge an outraged Mayor Daley by decrying "Gestapo tactics in the streets of Chicago."

When contestants steal the show.

Love the contestant at r286 who couldn't afford a haircut!

Here's the episode with the lady from 2.10.

Herman seems like a jolly man.

The Mayoress of Ottawa was a hoot!

Here's the one with the haircut guy.

Here's the one with Shatner coming onto the female contestant.

Unusual to have Dorothy and Kitty C on the same panel and no Arlene.

[quote]Unusual to have Dorothy and Kitty C on the same panel and no Arlene.

In the first show after Dorothy's death, Kitty Carlisle sat in for her.

It was easily done, Kit.

I know it doesn't need to be said, but young William Shatner was soooo handsome.

Do you see how he rests his left arm behind Kitty's chair? He seems to have trouble with boundaries.

I think we may have come full circle now as IIRC that Man on the Flying Trapeze was discussed maybe as early as the first WML thread. Didn't someone even post a link to Lee Staph's life story back then?

Here's the one where Arlene laughs about the exercise instructor in ladies reducing salon.

[quote]Here's the one where Arlene laughs about the exercise instructor in ladies reducing salon.

Was this before one of Arlene's exercise weights killed a man unlucky enough to be walking past her apartment building when it rolled off her windowsill?

That was in 1960.

The alimony clerk has a pronounced Wisconsin accent.

Dorothy looks perhaps her most attractive in this one.

Bergen Evans.

Perle Mesta mentions the upcoming TV biopic.

SKYSCRAPER

[quote]Then we would all be spared the personality-splitting question: to comment, or not to comment, when they still might be "fixing?" Variety, and other papers, review shows the minute they rear their heads out of town, in any town, so it seems to me the divertissements are fair game when they come into my town and start playing previews to which people pay $50 a ticket for the privilege of sitting in the balcony.

[quote]I am referring, specifically, to "Skyscraper," which I saw -- saw the first act of, to be completely accurate -- at the Lunt-Fontanne Theatre last night, in homage to a worthy charity, the George Junior Republic, of which I am a patron. The street outside the theatre was jammed with Rolls-Royces and Cadillacs, the playhouse was crammed with attractive and celebrated and polite people, but even the politest could not work up much enthusiasm for this new musical comedy. It contains Julie Harris, quite inexplicably, since she is not a musical comedy performer, Charles Nelson Reilly, who does everything but set fire to his trousers to get laughs where none are written in the libretto, one marvelous construction company ballet in the first act which should open the show, but doesn't, no music to sing of, and a lot of costumes that imitate last year's Courreges.

R306 Dorothy could be genteel and apologetic and then RIP YOUR EYES OUT. That’s why she’s a DL favorite and this thread has just over 3,900 posts!

I read that whole quote waiting to see if someone from What's My Line was mentioned in it. Thanks for letting me know how it related to WML, R307.

The tall Texas peanut farmer at R303 is handsome and plays the game with confidence. He's sexy.

Dorothy does look nice - they all do, although I like Arlene better as a blonde.

The political campaign button maker seemed to be very touchy-feely with JCD. He couldn't seem to keep his hands off of him!

Those CBS newscasters were all so handsome when they were younger. Not like the hunks we see today, but more distinguished.

Speaking of tall, I wonder if Wilt Chamberlain had his way with Arlene & Dorothy after the show.

[quote] The tall Texas peanut farmer at [R303] is handsome and plays the game with confidence. He's sexy.

That's John Connally's brother.

A Globetrotter?!

Arlene and her racialism!

Re Skyscraper

Dorothy Kilgallen attended a preview performance—a benefit for charity—on October 21, 1965. Despite a theater critics' tradition of refraining from reviewing preview performances of Broadway shows, Kilgallen expressed her opinion of Skyscraper in her column as it appeared in the New York Journal-American. The quote given in R306 is from her.

Perhaps the best part of the Skyscraper story is Dorothy died 2 weeks after filing that mean-spirited review of an early preview. Karma? The show finally opened 5 days after she died.

I wonder if it was unusual in 1965 for Broadway shows to preview for as long as 22 days. When I first read about the incident at r306, I assumed that the show probably only had a few previews (after extensive multi-city tryouts) so her reviewing one of them didn't seem quite so bad.

Nevertheless, it doesn't appear Julie Harris appeared as a MG to plug the show, even with Dorothy permanently removed.

Is it odd that Dorothy only saw the first act of Skyscraper? Is that all the preview was or did she walk out?

Skyscraper gave us this pretty song. Sinatra recorded it too.

She walked, r316.

I think the song "Everybody Has the Right to Be Wrong" also came from Skyscraper and got a lot of covers back then.

A non-profit and on television? Boy do you have a crazy sponsor.

Bobby Darin - "Everybody Has the Right to Be Wrong"

I loved how Dot could zoom in on most any musical guest in about three questions. "are you playing below 57th Avenue?"

Not unlike Arlene with guests of the Legitimate Theatre. She always knew who was currently on the boards!

Where you on a TV spectacular this afternoon?

TV Spectaculars were never broadcast in the afternoon.

I never miss a Julie Harris musical.

Unless they were recorded.

The political campaign button maker seemed to be very touchy-feely with JCD. He couldn't seem to keep his hands off of him!

He's Italian.

Related

How bizarre does t seem to us today that back then Arlene would have blurted out her home address to millions of TV viewers?

[quote]Unless they were recorded.

Whether they were recorded or not, they were not broadcast in the afternoon.

TV Spectaculars were shown during primetime.

So that's a no?

Weren't there occasionally TV spectaculars on Sunday afternoons in the 1950s? Like musical events with Leonard Bernstein, etc.

R333 Bernstein did a show called Omnibus on Sunday afternoons. It was a series, not a Spectacular.

Wilt The Stilt has devil ears.

Oh boy that department store detective in R311 would cause a riot today with her story about the colored woman thief.

I'm pretty sure Amahl and the Night Visitors was presented on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon a few times, live. I just looked it up on Wikipedia and it said it had been presented in prime time, but was then done on afternoons the next few times.

Arlene and the man with the beard.

[quote]I'm pretty sure Amahl and the Night Visitors was presented on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon a few times, live.

"Amahl and the Night Visitors" was a small-scale opera written for television. It wasn't a "spectacular." Not every musical program was a spectacular.

Define spectacular.

Teri Hatcher's breasts.

You people are slipping. R322 makes an absurd reference to something called 57th Avenue and no one corrects her. There is no such avenue, unless you’re traveling through Flushing, Queens.

fuck you R342. I knew my mistake as soon as I hit it. I thought it was going unnoticed.

You thought wrong. And it’s not a mistake, it’s wrong even if you tried Street.

No call for a conference was made.

The tree surgeon was a sexy guy. I love Arlene. She can take it as well as she can dish it.

[quote]How bizarre does it seem to us today that back then Arlene would have blurted out her home address to millions of TV viewers?

Playing with fire.

A Spectacular showcased stars. It's generally associated with things like Peter Pan, Cinderella, Frank Sinatra Timex Show, The Edsel Show, The Ford anniversary with Mary Martin & Ethel Merman, Annie Get Your Gun, An Evening with Fred Astaire. A lot of them had single sponsors. That sort of thing.

Amahl and the Night Visitors was an opera with unknowns to the general public. I don't know if it can really be classified as a Spectacular or if that word was used in its promotion. Perhaps.

As these one-off star vehicles became more common, the word Spectacular was replaced with the word Special.

The tree surgeon was a good looking guy with a nice sense of humor.

It's funny to watch Dorothy in that segment. She's prickly with John and she interrogates the tree surgeon like she's working for the CIA. She takes the game so seriously. Arlene and Bennett want to have fun.

He's usually an annoying priss pot but I like Tony Randal as a panelist. Seems he knew everybody and that they all liked him.

R344 There's no 57th Street?

R348 It had a single sponsor, Hallmark, I beleive.

Or believe.

R351 didn’t say that, did I! No, I did not.

Spectaculars had razzamatazz.

Small conference.

R354 I don't know why anyone made a big deal of this in the first place. So trivial and picky.

Then why are you bringing it up again🤷🏻‍♂️

Would we share an elevator?

Some people have to have the last word...

^ see R359 did it right in mocking Killgallen’s questioning ways. 👍🏼

Did you address book fall out of an whirly bird type craft whilst flying of Greece?

They all liked her. But, she was a woman with issues. There were times when, yes, they were exhaused by her during her 15 year run. And in those moments, didn't particularly like her, even if they still loved their long time friend.

There was an incident with Mike Wallace. He was supposed to be the mystery guest, but when John Daly got wind of it he refused to go on with Wallace. They were forced to find a last minute replacement. This was 1958 and Mike Wallace was seen as tabloid journalism- not someone who Daly would associate with.

Well, the entire story made the New York Journal American. John Daly knew Dolly Mae had leaked it. He didn't speak to her off air for many months, and was cold to her on air.

But, Daly eventually got over it. On the episode after she dies, he looks absolutely striken.

Her death completely took the wind out of the sails of WML

NBC Specataculars 1955

Well, it was already near the end of its 16th season, R364.

According to Wikipedia, the NBC "spectaculars" were a flop idea.

Back in the day, TV specials were called spectaculars.

Speaking of flop ideas, don't forget Betty Hutton in the waning days of her career starring in the first NBC color spectacular, the original musical "Satins & Spurs!"

I don't think she was in the waning days of her career yet.

Only on WML would they have mother/son sword swallowers and NOT have them give a demonstration before they left the stage.

It wasn’t an episode of Truth or Consequrnces!

You know what I meant…

[quote]—Sorry, no link from me

It would kill you, r369?

Originally in color

Betty Hutton starred in TV's first color "spectacular", 'Satins and Spurs (1954) (TV)', which debuted on September 12, 1954. It was a 90-minute musical comedy produced by Max Liebman. She played a rodeo queen who falls for a magazine writer, played by Kevin McCarthy. Reactions by critics and viewers were so negative that she announced her retirement from show business (one of the many times.)

A 1954 RCA Color TV cost $1,000....that's about $11,700 in today's money.

[quote] Only on WML would they have mother/son sword swallowers and NOT have them give a demonstration before they left the stage.

That would have to wait for the syndicated show. John Daly forbade exhibitions under his watch.

Sometimes inflation calculators don't seem to make sense. I saw a 1975 ad for RCA clock radios for 19.95. Inflation calc. says it would be @ $115 today. For a clock radio? I don't believe we paid the equivalent of that much money.

Come to think of it, I think the price of the radio was $29.95.

R379 Well, look at it this way, for comparison: an entry level Ford or Chevy cost around $1,700 in 1954.

So $1000 for a TV really was A LOT of money.

And the average cost of a new house was $10.250

[quote]And the average cost of a new house was $10.250

You could just win one on The Price Is Right...

if you're willing to move to Florida

So if the avg home price home price in LA is $1,000,000, then my next tv will cost $100,000. And you people keep bitching about us boomers — you could be paying a hundred grand to watch Friendz reruns…

Hey it wasn't that long ago when a big flat-screen TV would cost you a few thousand, and now they're a few hundred.

But in 1970, when my folks bought our first color TV, a console...

"In the early 1970s a good, 21-inch console color television might cost you $500. In today's money that would be around $3300."

I can't believe they spent that much!

And of course there was only one income in the household. But then the cost of other things was definitely cheaper. A loaf of bread in 1970 could be around 25 cents. That's only around two bucks and some change today.

More stealing contestants.

[quote]NBC Specataculars 1955

That must have been from later in the year. Mary Martin's "Peter Pan" aired on NBC, live and in color, for the first time in March 1955 and would definitely have been considered a spectacular.

Hal Block kisses the contestant.

[quote] And of course there was only one income in the household.

Which helps to explains the ubiquitous presence then of rental car commercials. With women not in the workplace, families typically owned just one car. Thus, the greater need for renting a car.

I didn't buy my first color TV until 1990 when I was 41.

Back then it just didn't seem that necessary. And it was what I had grown up with, what I was used to. Yes, I had old man attitudes even back then.

Well, this thread has certainly gotten a Labor Day Weekend bump!

Are you bitches going for Thread #8?

Herb Shriner

Herb Shriner, father of soap star Kin.

The face lifter lady was a real character.

R390 just no. Those ads has two markets: business travelers and vacationing families. WTF?.

R396, business travel and vacationing families have been a constant over time, so that would not explain why these ads are no longer a fixture in the culture. The disappearance of the two parent, one-car, family, does help to inform their absence.

R390. I'm sorry but I think you're wrong. This is R386 replying, not 396.

I don't think it was families with one car who used the car rental agencies. I don't know anyone in the 'burbs where I grew up who ever rented a car for that reason. Quite a lot of the time, either the dad took the train to the city and the mom drove him to the train and kept the car, or maybe she drove him to work, or (in our case) the dad got a ride with someone else, and Mom had the use of the car. In other cases, people occasionally had two cars. But nobody rented a car for household use.

I worked briefly for Hertz when I was younger and had to review paperwork and it was overwhelmingly travelers who used rental cars. Other than that it was people whose cars were totaled and being repaired.

[quote] I worked briefly for Hertz when I was younger and had to review paperwork and it was overwhelmingly travelers who used rental cars. Other than that it was people whose cars were totaled and being repaired.

Again, save for the historically recent advent of vehicles for hire, how, then, do you explain the long absence of rental car commercials? People continue to total their cars. When did you work for Hertz?

The advertisements targeted vacationers.

And businessmen:

R390 OJ was not there to get housewives into Hertz rentals. Your comments are bizzare. Mom was going to rent by the day to run errands? 🤔

R401 love that ad—it’s LAX!

R390, the person who replied to you, R402, is right. How would these housewives even get to a rental car agency? This was before Enterprise picked you up. The agencies were usually at the airport. Or out on some highway.

I didn't realize there are no longer car rental ads. I think there actually are some. Here's one with Tom Brady:

An enterprise TV ad:

So recent the announcer has vocal fry.

They still run ads by the gazillion—they havee this new thing that works better than tv: the interwebs.

(Maybe not TV. Possibly an online or YouTube ad. The thing is, if you rented a car, I have a feeling these things would then pop up all over your devices.)

R406 Exactly

Yeah, R402, I'm not talking about as "recent" as the late '70s, when OJ was hawking for Hertz. I'm talking about a pre-feminism era, e.g., the '60s & earlier, when stay-at-home Moms were the norm. And R404, I should have been more clear. One key marketing appeal back in the day was for weekend activity. Dad was not at work, Mom could take control of the wheels, & Dad wanted to pursue his own outside interests.

R409 I was around back then.

Housewives did not rent cars.

R409 you type funny. If you’re going to reset your argument to that time period, you might want to know how credit cards and rental outfits worked back then. Just sayin’

R409 If it was the weekend she had a car available —you really need to get your one-car story straight.

It was the weekend when Mom (finally) had access to the family's one car; you don't think Dad was going to tied to the home, do you?!

R413 You don't understand the era.

People worked around having only one car, without resorting to renting one.

And there were more two car families than you might think. A used car, or one of the new compacts, for mom.

In the 1950s There was a big push by the car companies to get families to buy a second car.

1956 FORD COMMERCIAL - Two Ford family

The two Ford family....1953

How much was a carton of cigarettes?

Bennett and the Congresswoman

Fran Allison

No Kukla? No Ollie?

Iris Blitch

R414 People worked around having one car--exactly. They still were doing this in the '60s-'70s when I was growing up. Also in the '50s people had one TV, one phone.

OG bitch: Blitch was a vocal advocate both for women's rights and racial segregation. …that’s how they rolled in Georgia! 😵‍💫

I liked those cutie singing garbage men. find them for me.

Here

At four thousand posts, I think we are just scratching the surface on this critical issue. Where do we go from here?

We'll go to Part 8, R426, and see where it takes us.

150+ posts left to make in this thread before that happens.

Arlene was ready to eat up those garbage boys. Arlene always enjoyed the good looking men.

The episode at R418 features a "strongman" as a contestant but what about body builders? They always seemed to turn up somewhere on 1950s television. No Mr.Universe?

Margaret Truman was a dog.

I’m gonna come back & give you a fat lip, R431.

R431 And kick you in the nuts.

Those cute singing garbagemen have to some of the best contestants ever. So funny. And so hot!

Margaret dancing with LBJ at his inaugural ball

[quote]if you're willing to move to Florida

Dealbreaker!

The singing garbage boys segment is HILARIOUS. You can't watch that without laughing along. Great television.

Didn't someone many threads ago do a search on Art Asquith and come up with his entire history post-garbage collecting?

Top John Daly moments.

R418, “you may do anything you like, Mr Cerf.”

I know just how she feels!

This show has Bennett's second wife Phyllis as a MG.

R422, it depended on where you were. In most suburbs, it was impractical to do the household's shopping or pick up dry cleaning on foot or do any of the other errands a housewife might want to do in the daytime. That made having a second car a tremendous convenience. In the 1960s DC suburb where I grew up, most families with children had two cars so the wife/mother could take care of household business and take the kids here and there without waiting for the father to come home. There were exceptions, but fewer and fewer as time went by. As long as the wife could drive, she usually had a car. Who do you think was driving all those station wagons?

From R442 Theodore Kratzke, (one of the department store Santas, was my mother's high school shop teacher!

[quote] In the 1960s DC suburb where I grew up, most families with children had two cars so the wife/mother could take care of household business and take the kids here and there without waiting for the father to come home.

That was not the experience of most families in the '60s, with 60% of family households owning just one car (with a little less than 20% owning two cars and 20% owning no cars).

R433 That wasn't my experience in the '60s. As I already explained, the mom would usually have the car because she would drop off the dad at the commuter train or they figured out some other way. My friend's mom used to borrow the car of the old lady who lived next door and didn't go out that much. Also, not all women drove, back then. My mom's sister never learned to drive, neither did the woman who lived next door to us with her husband.

(And even some men never drove--two of my uncles never learned to drive. They lived near streetcar lines.)

Also, and this may surprise some younger DLers here, most middle-class people didn't have credits cards in the 1950s, 60s and even 70s. Thus, there was no way to rent a car.

Originally published in Nov. 1952 in the Saturday Evening Post --

R448 no—that’s not it. Salient fact is that women could not get a credit in their own name.

My parents subscribed to The Saturday Evening Post & I still have some issues from the '60s. They also subscribed to Look (& I have some of its '60s issues, too), but not, surprisingly, the more popular Life.

Yes, that's true, r450, but I can remember my parents' attitude (and I assume many others) that credit cards and mounting credit debt were a societal evil and just simply unnecessary.

[quote] Salient fact is that women could not get a credit in their own name.

Make America Great Again.

I’d reach the opposite conclusion:

1. The credit card process and general use increased exponentially without a drop off, from the 50s forward.

2. The very fact that federal law was changed to allow for women get credit on their own points to it quickly having become an essential part of American life.

I don't recall anyone using credit cards at all very much until the '70s. What were there? Gasoline credit cards, Diner's Club? I don't remember too many others. IN the '50s ash and checks were used, mostly--there must have been other ways to rent cars.

You didn't know my parents, r454.

And to this day I really only use one credit card for everything and always try and pay my bill in its entirety.

But that change in federal law, R454, didn't happen until 1974 with the passage of The Equal Credit Opportunity Act.

To bring this discussion somewhat back to the purpose of this thread, does this mean Mrs. Richard Kollmar was never issued a credit card in her own name?

R456 And you shouldn’t assume your parents’ attitude was shared by many others—clearly based on the history of finance it wasn’t. Nor is your current attitude the common one as to credit card use.

R457. Yes—we know the federal law came later …that’s the very point raised already.

And now we return you, hopefully, to our show.

Can someone post a link to the show with a Hertz counter rep? Or maybe a Diners Club credit approval clerk?

Wealthy women may not have had credit cards in their own name, but Dorothy and her ilk would have had accounts at all sorts of businesses from their hair salons to their butchers and bakers to Bergdorf's and Bonwit's. Cash never crossed their palms.

[quote] Can someone post a link to the show with a Hertz counter rep? Or maybe a Diners Club credit approval clerk?

Until that possibility is unearthed, maybe this will suffice.

Five kids in my family. My dad had a Porsche and my mom had a Ford station wagon. LOL

From the Jack Lemmon movie "Good Neighbor Sam"

(Should've mentioned that the scene also features WMLer Robert Q. Lewis)

r461 wealthy women had their own driver, at least their own car. duh

Store accounts were the go to before credit cards for women. They'd send a bill once a month.

In the latter half of the 1970s while going to school, I worked at a French restaurant in midtown Manhattan.

People paying by credit card was a very rare thing.

Yea—all those businessmen at lunch and wealthy couples at dinner in Motown were the least likely to ever pull out a credit card. Thank you for the laugh, and for your service!

*Midtown

Top Arlene moments.

Top Dorothy moments.

sdfdsfsdfsad

spectacular

Sad last days for Bogie.

And sadly, Bogie never made it over to WML. I wonder, had he lived longer, might he have done a mystery guest appearance? I believe Betty Bacall did 2.

Have you been known to drink a coffee of international variety whist feed your feline a feat that is very fancy?

I think Arlene was drunk off her ass during the bell episode.

[quote]Yea—all those businessmen at lunch and wealthy couples at dinner in Motown were the least likely to ever pull out a credit card. Thank you for the laugh, and for your service!

Were you around then and dealing with the paying public?

The episode for R478

I think that Arlene had possibly had one over the eight and the reactions of fellow panelists and John Daly suggest amusement at the unusual situation. Nevertheless, as always, she is the complete professional and a joy. She could also, of course, have been totally exhausted and relying on her "show must go on" ethics to get her through the half hour. Her work schedules must have been totally draining.

R468 yes—you were serving me.

R479 yes.^^

The episode at R480: It seems Dorothy was on to the fact that Arlene was a little drunk. Note how she keeps looking at Arlene and giggling. She's really enjoying herself.

R482 Oh yes, I remember you!

And I forgot to leave a tip on my Diners Club receipt. Even-Steven R485

I have the feeling we should be grateful that dress the boxing kangaroo referee wears is not seen in color.

Met Allen Funt in early 80s at a tiny tavern in Tacoma. Had no idea where he was. He asked Where is The Sheraton hotel? So I drove him down there and he gave me $100 dollar bill.

[quote]It seems Dorothy was on to the fact that Arlene was a little drunk.

Perhaps Arlene had been entertaining before that night's show and had enjoyed a bit too much of the Vat 69.

The episode with the maternity clothes salesman and Dorothy is 8 months pregnant.

You never hear as much squealing hilarity from the panel and the audience when maternity/pregnancy comes into play.

Seems so immature and silly now. To me, at least.

I guess they must have cut the panel's introductory walk when Dorothy was pregnant. I have no memory of ever seeing her visibly so during WML.

Was there a panel introductory walk in the original series? I thought that was only in the syndicated version.

Not the guest/contestant walk, the panel walking in as they're introduced, r492.

they all had such beautiful penmanship.

They had some training, R494.

Dorothy's daughter was born March 19, 1954. Dorothy is still on the show March 7.

Betsy Palmer was pregnant during I've Got a Secret.

When John Daly starts WML in 1950, he's 36 years old. Filled with energy, chipper, happy, all with a strong mid-Atlantic accent.

When the show ends in 1967, Daly is 53, and markedly different. He seems run down and weary. As if life had knocked the stuffing out of him. In those years he got divorced (with young children) got remarried to the daughter of a Supreme Court Justice, had two members of the WML? panel die, dealt with the JFK assasaination, and all the upheaval of the '60s.

Just interesting to note the impact of such great cultural change on the greatest generation. It's very apparent with Daly.

March 14, 1954. 5 days before birth.

John makes a reference to Dorothy being pregnant in the episode.

[quote]Not the guest/contestant walk, the panel walking in as they're introduced, R492.

What I meant was, the panel is already seated at the start of the show, as in the "5 days before birth" clip at R499. The panel members have a walk-in entrance in the 1970s syndicated version.

R499, they may not have been doing it then, but at some point during the run they would designate at the outset whether the show was "live from New York." There was no reference to that on the episode you linked, so it's possible that the show was taped for later broadcast.

March 21, 1954. No Dorothy so she must be recovering from the birth.

Bennett mentions the birth.

As does Steve.

Was very sweet idea to have Dorothy's other 2 children as Mystery Guests. The daughter looks just like her.

[quote] When John Daly starts WML in 1950, he's 36 years old. Filled with energy, chipper, happy, all with a strong mid-Atlantic accent.

He grew up in Boston and went to a private school in NH. When did a New England accent become "mid-Atlantic"?

There's no such thing as a "New England accent." Eastern Massachusetts is very different from Maine, or southern Connecticut for example.

R506 Daly adopted that accent that many actors and people who spoke for a living at the time had. I've always heard that refered to as "Mid-Atlantic." By the end of the run of the show, he no longer had it.

R506 I'm so glad you're here to correct people when we say wrong things.

I love that Dorothy's middle name was Mae. I can just picture her family calling her Dotty Mae at home. Popping her balloon and making her cringe.

We're just going to turn all the cahhdds

Do you know how we play the game?

I thought her family called her Dollie Mae. Or is that just a DL thing?

Are you familiar with the way we keep score?

There certainly may be some training required, but not in our normal frame of reference. I don't want to mislead you I'm going to give you a no.

I have to laugh at Dorothy's message at the end of the R503 show. She says Margaret looks wonderful and beautiful but doesn't comment on her game ability.

Also Fredric March scores a laugh from his exiting curtsy, as if parodying Dorothy's daughter.

Is it Miss or Mrs.?

Can you just imagine JCD asking a man upon his introduction: "Are you married or not?"

I've seen game show episodes from the '60s & '70s where, asked if they had any children, the flummoxed female contestant responds with some variation of, 'No, I'm not even married.'

Dorothy back on the show March 28, 1954.

Both Steve Allen and John Daly say it's nice to have her back.

Meh.

For a loveless marriage, Dorothy had a lot of kids.

She was drunk a lot. It was probably just a big of surprise to her as it was to you.

Please note Janet Leigh's Remington Rand typewriter in this scene from "Psycho" (1959). That's Alfred Hitchcock's daughter Patricia in the scene with her.

Too bad Stopette deodorant didn't also get product placement in the movie.

An odd episode. No panel regulars were there that night. It wasn't nearly as good. Though I have no idea who she was I really like Laraine Day. I'll have to googie her. As usual I hate Mickey Rooney in whatever he does.

Poor Gene. Life took it's tool on her looks way too early. Something must have been bothering Dotty Mae. She had a broom stick up her ass for this episode.

[quote] For a loveless marriage, Dorothy had a lot of kids.

She was a good, mid-century, Catholic.

[quote]Though I have no idea who she was I really like Laraine Day. I'll have to googie her.

Laraine Day was an actress with a long list of movie credits. Her leading men included Cary Grant. Her marriage to Leo Durocher led her to being known as the First Lady of Baseball. Durocher was the second of her three husbands.

Laraine Day was one of those Hitchcock heroines who was NOT an icy blonde...1940's Foreign Correspondent opposite Joel McCrea. And she was often the leading lady in MGM's popular Dr. Kildare series.

And yes, she was the only highlight of that LA version of WML.

[quote]He seems run down and weary. As if life had knocked the stuffing out of him. In those years he got divorced (with young children) got remarried to the daughter of a Supreme Court Justice, had two members of the WML? panel die, dealt with the JFK assasaination, and all the upheaval of the '60s

Everything but the bloodhounds snappin' at his rear end.

I know Laraine Day best as the kleptomaniac in the film noir classic The Locket. She is the lead and stars with Robert Mitchum in an early role, Brian Aherne, Gene Raymond, and Lilian Fontaine (Joan and Olivia's mom). In the film she goes through many husbands and hairstyles.

I'd bet that Esther Williams, Mickey Rooney and Laraine Day never suspected that their fellow panelist Jack Lemmon would become one of the biggest movie stars of the 60s and the 70s in just another few years. Jack probably didn't even see it coming.

Why the move to LA? How many episodes were done out there?

Vaughn Monroe.

Here's the show for R526

I think Gene still looks beautiful. And I don't see any problem with Dorothy on the show.

R492 and R501, the CBS show starting using a walk-in introduction for the panelists around ’56 or ’57. Only in the earlier years do the episodes start off with the panelists seated. It was a big improvement and quite interesting because you can following the changing fashions of the era and also get a better sense of Arlene’s and Dorothy’s sense of style.

R512, yes, it's Dollie Mae, not Dottie Mae, and it's not a DL thing. I heard someone on the show – maybe Bennett or a MG she knew well – call her Dollie Mae affectionately at one point. I think friends as well as family used the nickname. She may not have minded it at all.

R517, JCD had to ask “is it Miss or Mrs.” because the panelists addressed the contestants formally. Men were always “Mr.”, and even little boys were “Master”. “Ms.” did not exist yet, so they had to know whether to say “Miss Contestant” or “Mrs. Contestant”.

R533, they only broadcast from Los Angeles that once, on January 12, 1958. I think in the previous episode JCD had said he would be in LA the following week, so they would be doing the show from there. I thought it was a fun change but certainly wouldn’t want to see it often. The Hollywood people take the game less seriously, although all the panelists on that episode had appeared on WML in New York. I know Laraine Day had been a guest panelist. And Mickey Rooney, Esther Williams and Jack Lemmon had all been MGs and maybe guest panelists, too. Jack was definitely a panelist at some point, but it might have been after this special episode.

Nevertheless, there was always a lascivious sigh when a pretty guest informed JCD that it was Miss So and So.

the panel sing Happy Birthday to Dorothy.

Are you affiliated with any branch of the ahhhmed services?

Esther Williams got a lot of prime cock in her day.

Do you think the R541 intro was right to left and not the usual left to right to allow them to sing to Dorothy?

Laraine Day #1 September 9, 1951 as MG appears to be lost.

[quote]“Ms.” did not exist yet, so they had to know whether to say “Miss Contestant” or “Mrs. Contestant”.

Tell that to the idiot closed-captioning people who use it instead of "miss" on every single TV show and movie, irrespective of the era in which it was produced.

There's a fun Sept. 1963 show with Gordon & Sheila McRae with lots to talk about if someone would be so kind to link it. I tried but couldn't succeed.

Here

R507 Despite the many New England accents, they share common traits. There's probably no such thing as a Southern accent, either, but the various Southern accents share certain traits which make the accent unmistakably Southern.

(For instance, Boston, Maine, and New Hampshire all drop r's.)

Mystehy guest enteh and sign in please

...You pronounce the r in mystery and the r before a vowel...

Laraine Day #2 as panelist.

Laraine Day #3 as panelist.

Governor Foss.

Rodgers and Hammerstein as the mystery guests in February 1956.

When that false teeth saleswoman did the perp walk in R541 she ignored Arlene.

Looks like Part 8 will soon be with us! :)

John Charles Daly says in R543 that they have a new sign-in board. Here is the previous episode with the old board.

oops the above reference should be R541.

[quote]Rodgers and Hammerstein as the mystery guests in February 1956.

Did anyone ask them if they were in the legitimate theater?

Did they play longhair music.

Did they recently have dinner with Bennett?

When you're down and out

Lift up your head and shout

It's going to be Laraine Day

I applaud JCD's apparent but understandable impatience with Fred Allen at r556.

For R525

For R548

The same show's Wine Steward is one of the few ladies I can understand getting wolf whistles.

For R547

Part 8 is ready for when it's needed.

Mark Clark for R556

[quote] Now wait a minute, I’m not done asking my questions. — Dorothy @ R16

See, John, I told you so.

From R560 I was curious about the baby alligators mentioned in the previous show.

Everyone on the panel was crushing on the dimpled Parisian newsie at r569.

New York Herald Tribune?

When I was in junior high school in suburban NJ the 1960s, we were all required to buy a subscription to either the NY Times or the Herald Tribune, in order to keep up with our class in current events. IIRC the papers were delivered directly to the school, and we must have gotten some kind of student discount.

Most everyone, me included, opted for the Trib because, unlike the Times, there were comics.

Hated that class btw. I couldn't have cared less why Madame Nhu was visiting America (though I was kinda fascinated by her Suzy Wong dresses).

Of course, my dad brought home the NY Post nightly.

And now let's meet our award winning What's My Line panel.

I hated the episodes with Graucho Marx. He never knew when to just shut it off for a few minutes. Even Jerry Lewis knew how when he was a panelist.

I agree about Groucho, but I found every comedian that sat in the guest panelist spot to be annoying and distracting. And unfunny. That would also include Victor Borge, Buddy Hackett, Paul Winchell and his dummy Jerry...and even Jerry Lewis and a few others I'm happily forgetting. And let's not even talk about non-guests Hal Block (yecccchhh) and Fred Allen (zzzz). Steve Allen was great, however.

Young Johnny Carson was my fave and he could be funny in that spot, but he never overwhelmed the game. And he was cute!

I never got why Goodson/Todman felt a comedian needed to be in the mix.

I loved Groucho on the show.

Oh, I loved Buddy as panelist.

Laraine Day #4 as panelist

Wiki

Small conference: Just a reminder, as this thread winds down, that Part 8 is waiting in the wings.

Incomparable, r584.

Laraine Day #5 is the Los Angeles show.

The Elephant Trainer puts Fred in his place.

[quote] I never got why Goodson/Todman felt a comedian needed to be in the mix.

R580 To get laughs, which most of them did at that time. I’m an ancientgay, and I liked most of the comedians that appeared on the panel. The common thread for most of them was that they were quick-witted and could ad-lib jokes about what was just said. Steve Allen, Joey Bishop, Buddy Hackett, Johnny Carson, Groucho, and yes, even Hal Bloch, who was a comedy writer. His humor was too burlesque for the show, so he had to go. But I laughed at some of Hal’s lascivious jokes especially because they were so out of place that they were additionally funny to me. Kind of like why I laugh hysterically when watching Family Guy.

Arlene was also excellent at making snappy jokes quickly but not as frequently as the professional comedians could do. They were “sure laughs” for Goodson and Todman.

By the time of the syndicated show, comedy styles were changing. Soupy Sales was almost unbearable for me to watch sometimes. He wasn’t in the same league as most of the comedians who appeared on the original show. He did “shtick” and physical comedy on his own show, and those just didn’t work when he was on the panel.

Good night, Miss Dorothy. Good night, Mr. Allen. Good night, Miss Arlene. Good night, Mr. Cerf.

See you all on the next thread for more "What's My Line?"

I thought the bowling alley pin setter was going to be a cartoon voicer since she comes from Hollywood and has a cartoon voice.

How long did it take Goodson/Todman to find a bread box maker/seller to appear as a contestant?

I was at a party once, where we played What's My Line? using our first jobs out of high school or college. I was shocked at just how terrible most people were at playing the game. It goes to show just how capable the original panel was -narrowing things down with for-profit vs. not, product vs service, etc. I guess most people just don't think that way...

That cannot be answered with a yes or no.

R593 They were a bit more experienced at it than the people at the party, though.

The female wrestler is very concerned with her spit curl.

How fortuitous that the camera is on the panel when the audience screams at Arlene guessing the motorcycle cop. It's funny how all the panel look at the audience in unison and Arlene laughs.

LOVE the idea of WML as a party game! Can't believe my friends and I never tried that over so many years.

And weren't Deals in a service/product; For/Not for profit often JCD gimmes?

Fred Allen moments.

See you all in the new thread. :)