Have you ever been close to a person with borderline personality disorder?

[quote] Ultimately, how does one deal with this kind of -- for lack of a better term -- crazy?

You don’t. You run and don’t look fucking back.

There is zero need to have any engagement with these damaged and extremely dangerous individuals. Cluster Bs should be ignored at all costs. There is nothing worth engaging with these sick vampires.

Don’t learn the hard way.

Why?

Become boring and uninteresting to them and fade out of their life. Never ever confront or challenge them in any way.

Just about every member of the Dump administration, as well as most of the Republican Office holders.

Nancy Mace is possibly the most disorderly of all.

If you're close to them, r4, can't you, uh, do something about it?

A former boss, universally loathed, terrifying mood swings, referred to staff members by their titles or positions while collectively we were her "reports," and she would pick on one person relentlessly for awhile then move on to the next person. It was agonizing knowing that it was going to be your turn sooner or later. So many people quit to work elsewhere, often for less money, or maybe a lateral move -- anything to get out of there.

And get this -- it was a public library!

OP, you really didn't describe any behaviors that would prove the person is borderline. That could be any kind of crazy.

OP what does this 60 yo woman do specifically to make you think she's got BPD?

As you say, OP, this is a perennial DL topic and I first posted this story about 15 years ago, so apologies to Marilu Henner and anyone else with her super memory.

I met my BPD friend at work, and in many ways she was one of the best friends I've ever had. She was that type of friend that knew when to give a shoulder to cry on and when to kick me in the ass when needed. She was also one of the funniest people I've ever known. I have so many memories of her making me laugh so hard I'd literally fall out of my chair. We had a lot of fun, and we shared more than a few tears. But it didn't take me long to notice how "off", like OP's friend, her behavior could be. If she was having a conflict with someone in her life, or at work, she could rant hysterically about it for days and weeks on end. But when she was getting along with everyone, and things were going smoothly for her, she lost all affect and energy, as if someone pulled her batteries out. Her opinions about people could flip-flop so drastically it made my head spin. She had one relative that she used to complain about so vehemently you'd think they were Satan incarnate, and after years of this vitriol one day she told me that same person was her favorite member of the family and she cherished their close relationship.

Inevitably, it became my turn in the barrel, and she cut me off dead after some slight I committed that I honestly can't remember. I received a long letter detailing my character flaws and all the ways I'd hurt her. I thought that was the end of the friendship, but when I was going through a really hard time about a year later, she swooped in and stood by my side just like nothing had ever happened. While I was happy to have her back, especially in my hour of need, I tried to gently address our estrangement once or twice, but she acted like she didn't know what I was talking about. We were peas and carrots for several years after that, until she stirred up some trouble between a co-worker and me and I called her out on it (not angrily, just irritated) and boom! I received another letter and another 18 months of silence. Eventually, she started popping by my desk to say hi and gossip about work nonsense, but I kept it casual for another year or so. She kept scratching at my door, though, and I finally relented but insisted we address her habit of ending our friendship randomly. She halfheartedly participated, but really couldn't articulate why she did it. We put it behind us but I was very clear that if she ever did it again, it would be for the last time.

She left for another job, but we remained close for several more years. Inevitably, I got on her wrong side once more. We had plans for lunch and shopping one Saturday, and after a hard week at work I slept past our agreed meeting time. I apologized and offered to meet her later that day, but she was too furious to consider it. A couple of days later I called her and she tearfully told me how selfish I was and how could I let her down when I knew all she'd been through. I reminded her of my statement that the next estrangement would be the last, and she hung up. That was the last time we spoke.

About six or seven years later, I heard from a co-worker that my friend had died. It was a shock, but not surprising, if that makes any sense. Though only in her mid forties, she was extremely obese and always suffering from one illness or another. I had mourned her long ago, but I still couldn't help but feel sad about all the years she wasted being unhappy.

You didn't ask for advice, OP, but I'm going to give some anyway. End this friendship as soon as you can, as gently as you can. Though my friend was good to me and we had lots of fun, the amount of time and emotional energy I wasted on her outweighs the good times exponentially. Good luck.

There are many other behaviors I have observed in the year I have known her, r7, that seem borderline. I won't get into all of them, but they include things like threatening suicide or making other threats when she feels rejection of any kind is imminent. She also has a history of psych admits.

For r8 too.

As others have said, run the hell away and never look back. You would shocked to learn just how quickly and easily they can and will fuck up your life, just for fun.

Would be. ^

Thanks for sharing that r9.

Was she ever formally diagnosed? Did she have childhood trauma?

I do think I knew someone who had it (went out with them). Quite a psycho when you got to know him. Most people thought he was great. They never saw the real person. He was surprisingly evil when you were involved. Though not consistently. And if you become emotionally attached while you're still in a 'honeymoon phase,' it will be soul-crushing later.

I think Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction was borderline. It's not always that crazy or dramatic, but it has those aspects. Some control it better than that.

But to be honest, it's not their fault, though some people here seem to write like it is. Best thing is to create distance and maintain it, though.

They are emotional vampires, OP. They are exhausting. Drama almost everyday and the worst part was waiting for something to happen. You couldn't enjoy the quiet, good times because you knew it wouldn't last. He was so charming and good looking that no one believed anything could be wrong with him, they blamed me when he hit me because I drove him to it . They thought I was crazy and to be honest I just about was because of him. When I finally escaped him I couldn't believe how badly he had damaged me because it was so insidious the way he slowly escalated the emotional gaslighting. Down was up, up was down. The drama , omg the drama.

The borderline I know either loves you or hates you, no in between. They can be very needy, have ever changing identities.

And the most borderline sign, from my experience, is a crazy temper that seems to come out of nowhere.

Sadly, it stems from their fear of abandonment and inability to regulate their emotions.

I actually have a lot of sympathy for those with borderline, because they truly cannot help it (without lots of therapy), but if you truly suspect someone in your life has borderline then the best thing to do is grey rock them!

Learn all you can about the grey rock method.

I worked with a Jekyl/Hyde type. I never knew who he would be from day to day. We weren't close though, I kept my distance.

R16- Yes, it is extremely difficult to deal with because you feel such sympathy for them. The person I posted about committed suicide by dousing his home with jet fuel and setting it on fire, with him in it. Horrifying and heartbreaking. For years I have carried such guilt over leaving him, but he hurt me.

If someone put a gun to my head every day and made me hang out with a BPD or Malignant narcissist, I would choose the one who can sometimes be amusing and charming. They are both impossible types.

My friend did go to therapy for a time, OP, but if she was ever diagnosed as BPD she never shared it with me. I'm positive she had a nightmare of a childhood. She never shared any stories of abuse, but she had zero memories of her life before age eight, which is telling.

The worthless fucking whore who lived upstairs from me had it. RUN. if you even SUSPECT bpd, RUN and never look back.

I am about 75 percent confident that my new neighbors across the fence, the daughter has bpd. I avoid her but I am pretty certain.

I agree with those who have pointed out the sympathy they feel for the borderlines in their lives. This is something I struggle with. Ultimately, she is not malicious, and although it is a chestnut, she seems to have been hurt far more in life than she has hurt others. She tends to cling desperately to abusive men, for example. She has no boundaries.

In a general sense, I feel sorry for borderlines because of several of the posts on this thread. Imagine already suffering from profound self-loathing and reading some of these posts ... it would not help. A lot of stuff about BPD, at least pop psych stuff, is awash with barely concealed vitriol.

I'm not an expert, but I almost prefer c-PSTD as a diagnosis precisely because it is less stigmatizing.

But I also recognize she is extraordinarily emotionally taxing. She is always -- always -- experiencing some sort of crisis. And her skin is beyond thin. She takes everything personally, even -- or especially -- things that have nothing to do with her.

Your sympathy would disappear if you lived with one.

My first unrequited love had most of the borderline traits (it can be a learned behaviour) but it was her mother who was a textbook example. Her little brother was borderline too; he later committed suicide. Her father and sister seemed normal.

I've read that of all the personality disorders BPD is the one that's most treatable if the person affected chooses to work with a therapist.

I find that fags hags (or whatever the newest term for them is) generally tend to present with the same problematic behaviors you describe, OP. Why they attach to gay men is probably explained by the frail self-image that some gay men have which fits into these women's need for their kind of drama. They idealize you one moment and they tear you down the next, which matches the experience many gay men have had of nurture and abandonment by loved ones.

R26 Plenty of gay men have BPD as well. PLENTY. It's befallen upon people raised by mothers who were selfish, narcissistic cunts.

She is definitely a fag hag, r26. I assumed it was because she can't maintain female friendships (this is clear) due to jealously, rivalry, or something similar.

"They idealize you one moment and they tear you down the next. '

Yes, this is exactly what they do. Also the things they praise you for or say they admire about you are the very things they come to resent you for. Contradictory and very confusing.

They say the BPD always seeks out the Narcissist and viceversa. They're a match made in hell.

My unrequited also had narcissistic tendencies, cluster B traits and a boatload of childhood trauma that included sexual abuse. I put up with her for the better part of a year before I realized I couldn't keep her in my life and be sane at the same time. Tammy had a good heart, was caring and funny yet exhausting all at once. She's since had a daughter and it seems like her child is the best thing that happened to her. I'm happy for her but it's best to go no contact with these folks.

Her mom died of cancer several years back (her FB account isn't private) and I hope for her mother's sake she found peace and contentment that eluded her in life.

Yes, and I consider our interactions as public service and cheap entertainment.

R30 I have found that narcissist parents create BPD children. And BPD parents create codependent children, who either break the cycle or start it all over again by procreating with another narcissist. Either way, it seems to move in generational trauma cycles of three.

Yes, I dated one. He was fine for the first 6 months and then all hell broke loose. Multiple fights and visits to inpatient facilities and jail. He actually got kicked out of psychiatric facilities due to violence and sent to jail. I tried to get him help but he ended up purposefully overdosing.

Had I known I would have never gotten involved.

He was sexually abused by his older brother and the family swept it under the rug.

I once had a coworker who I’m pretty sure was histrionic. She was an extremely tall, plus sized gal with a beautiful face who could have easily been a plus sized model if she wanted.

She wore sky high heels that made her even taller, heavy makeup, flashy often revealing clothes with big hats, jewelry, and sunglasses. Honestly, if you saw her walking down the street, you’d probably think she was a drag queen.

She had a very loud personality to match her loud appearance. She had to be the center of attention 24/7 and if she wasn’t, she would lash out and literally throw temper tantrums.

I have also known a lot of people who I suspect have BPD (some of them are my relatives) although they were never officially diagnosed.

BPD doesn’t manifest the same in everyone but there are some common qualities. For whatever reason, BPD people are always drawn to me.

[quote] For whatever reason, BPD people are always drawn to me.

Are you narcissistic?

R36 They could also be codependent--cluster B's are equally attracted to them. Codependents are kind of inverted narcissists.

R36 / R37 No, I think the reason they’re drawn to me is because apparently I’m “calm” and “safe” (their words) I think they see me as a parental figure in a weird way and when I can’t “parent” them the way they want, they lash out at me.

That makes sense, r38

Best of luck, OP, it is never easy. It can be entertaining, but also painful. Make sure you maintain your boundaries and protect any family.

[Quote] OP what does this 60 yo woman do specifically to make you think she's got BPD?

She lives in El Paso. THERE. Borderline enough for you?

Lol r41

[Quote] I've read that of all the personality disorders BPD is the one that's most treatable if the person affected chooses to work with a therapist.

It's the LEAST treatable and potentially most complex of all cluster B personality disorders. These people lead miserable lives. And they're mostly women.

I had a longtime friend with BPD and she refused to be medicated for it. I had to cut her loose.

It doesn't usually respond to meds, r44

Is it possible we could do a Liberia and send all the BPD people to their own country where they can just torture each other and be miserable cunts?

Oh, they’re not so bad!

R9 sounds like disorganized attachment (which implies childhood trauma). Which tends to go along with BPD

I’m a Datalounger, I diagnose everybody in my sight with one psych disorder or other.

Myself excluded, of course. One of us has to be level-headed enough to point out everybody’s flaws.

Why no, I’ve never herd of “projection”, why do you ask?

I lived with one for 17 years...my ex husband. It took me awhile to get used to the lack of drama and chaos once we divorced.. Admittedly I'm no catch with my issues with depression and nerves but I'm stable Mable compared to him. It's been 15+ years since me split up and now my life is frinking wonderful.

r49 I am OP of this thread and have posted previously that I suspect I have schizotypal personality disorder

[quote] Are you narcissistic?

Men in general tend to be proportionally more narcissistic than women and I'm sure gay men are right up there if not more. But consider this, Narcissism is among other things a defense structure, a kind of over compensation for deep feelings of inadequacy. Doesn't it make sense that gay men, having endured so much invalidation, would develop a structure that allows them to feel better than the rest?

R16 - that describes my 27 year old niece to a T. In her mind, you’re either for her or against her - no nuance. Anything bad that happens to her is catastrophic, and everyone else is to blame. I’m currently an enemy, which is fine by me. The dynamic between her and her co-dependent mother, my sister, is generally exhausting.

R49 is clearly on the spectrum.

My best friend from high school (female) was diagnosed bipolar 1 but I always suspected she might have BPD. I'm not sure if both can be present at once, but from my cursory study of the two, it seemed she had more symptoms of BPD than bipolar. She would go on and off her meds and zigzag through life from one extreme to the other. She was very jealous and had a propensity to want to be involved with anyone else in my life, almost like she was "collecting" my other friends and acquaintances for herself as a means of control. We got into a lot of fights in our twenties and I was often accused of being a "bad friend" despite having been there for her at her most extreme lows—I even rushed her to the hospital once when she had an incomplete miscarriage (she was fucking men she'd meet left and right, all of whom were using her, always unprotected sex and no birth control) and the doctor told me had I not found her in the state she was in, she would've likely died from sepsis in her apartment.

We went through a lot together and I still love her, but we talk only occasionally and we live in different states. I had to put up boundaries with her at a certain point in our late twenties, and once I finally did, she sort of backed away. I think there was also a dynamic in the first several years of our friendship where she resented me because she was in love with me; she was actually the first person I came out to, and I think it devastated her on some level.

R55, R34 here. My ex was also first diagnosed as bipolar and then wound up with the borderline personality disorder label. He lied so much I think he convinced his psychiatrists he was only bipolar and not much more complex and harmful to himself and others. He also made all of his symptoms much worse by overindulging in alcohol and marijuana, which actually created a psychosis by itself.

Yes, OP.

I had a friend that sounds a lot like R9’s. I related a lot to what R9 said. My friend was hilarious, interesting, and fun to be around, until 1 slight, sometimes even completely imagined slights, would send her off a ranting, raving deep end. I eventually decided that the last tirade was the last tirade.

My best advice is just to not get into it, OP.

R55 One can absolutely be both bipolar and BPD. Bipolar is something you're born with, BPD is created in childhood.

I see so many reddit comments these days where people are listing off a litany of diagnoses ("I'm Bipolar AuHD BPD with autoimmune issues"), and I think to myself, my god, why don't you just put yourself out of your misery already?

R6, is her name “Kim” by chance?

R46 Long Island?

R9, maybe R57, was her name Becque?

R55 My public service is always time and a half as she's both, bipolar 1 and BPD. She's done IOP, PHP, CBT/DBT, none of that works for her, neither do the antispychotics.

^R I meant R32, not 38 @ R62. Its too early for all these numbers and letters to be clear.

Back away slowly, smile, and do not antagonize them. Change your contact info to be extra sure.

Just because someone has a known issue doesn't mean you have to take crap from them.

"They idealize you one moment and they tear you down the next."

Mom?

r64 = Dan Gallagher

My mother was that way. It took therapy to deal with that. I felt great relief when she was gone.

They are wild in bed. They, unfortunately, make great lovers.

Jesus R9, I'm trying to do the math in my head, but just how long did you have this friendship/unfriendship until the final break?

R26, I've noticed that too in my (very fortunate) few dealings with people with BPD. I was attacked so viciously by someone who used me to get a job, and then once secured, iced me out of her life, eventually turning many in my workplace against me. 40 years later I am still astounded how it went down and how clueless I was to it.

I have a very long time "friend" with BPD who told me he is terrible in bed and uninterested in sex. He likes love bombing and loves his partner. For R69. What is lacking is stability.

How common is it for borderlines to end up friends or partners with each other?

I wouldn’t advise it.

I just know the worst type for me to deal with is the passive-aggressive. If BPD is another name for abandonment issues from childhood, who doesn’t have it?

I think the theory is that people have differing capacities to deal with trauma, r75

I’ve met a few in clinical environments. Some were being interviewed in groups, with professionals-in-training asking the questions.

They’d enjoy attention and all the questions being asked. When it wasn’t their turn to talk, they’d almost explode with how much they wanted to interject, add, comment, agree, disagree. And they usually would.

They’d share life stories with childlike / childish excitement and embellishment. It was impossible to tell how much was exaggerated, but the stories were grim nonetheless. Mostly family stuff.

They may have stayed the emotional and behavioral age of when their world last felt safe enough or made enough sense - many in their tweens or teens.

This is oddly specific, but two women I've known at different times in my life -- one diagnosed BPD, the other I strongly suspected had it -- told almost identical stories from childhood involving their fathers having affairs and dragging their daughters into it.

R78 What, like...for a threesome?

No, involved them emotionally r79. Confided in them about the affair, swore them to secrecy, etc.

I've seen borderlines described as failed narcissists, meaning, I guess, they lack the ruthless manipulation skills to keep people putting up with their shit.

That makes sense, r81

Dr. Blaise Aguirre researches self-loathing, which is a core component of BPD. I find his work very interesting and compassionate.

About ten years, R70. Met her in 1989. First break was summer 1990. First reconciliation was fall 1991. Second break was spring 1993. Second reconciliation was autumn 1996. Final break was January 2001.

R81 narcissists tend to have a dismissing (avoidance) attachment style. Borderlines tend to have complexly disorganized attachment styles. The underlying attachment and emotional regulation strategies are different, but there is an overlap as disorganized attachment styles often incorporate dismissing strategies.

*avoidant (not avoidance)

Try dating one!

R59, not Kim but same first initial. That's the extend of what I'm comfortable posting.

R6, I have worked in public libraries for over 25 years, and I can attest that your boss is far from the only one in the field! I currently work with one—I don’t report to her, thank God, but she makes life hell for her staff and anyone else she can. I avoid her at all costs. Admin have been able to get rid of a few of these types over the years, but for some reason they are scared to get rid of her.

You handle those bitches R6 but letting them know right out of the gate that you are not the one. Ive encountered a few psycho bosses over the years and I did not hesitate to go right over their heads if they tried it. I have never understood people who kvetch about shitty bosses or coworkers . I dont nor have I ever allowed anybody to speak to me any old way they want. Has it cost me a job ? Surely,but thats hardly the point. People treat you how you allow them to treat you. I dont give a fuck if you are the CEO ,you will not talk down to me or disrespect me. I will walk in a nano second and sue your asses blind.

R88 Kathy! You met Kathy!

This is why I have always stayed away from fag hags. I can see them coming a mile away. They're all borderline who believe they own "their gays" (yes, I'm talking to you, Kathy Griffin) until there's a break-up and then it all falls apart but nor for long because they can't handle staying in what they perceive as rejection.

A great gay psychologist I once met told me not to form my closest group of friends out of straight women and his wisdom has served me well.

This is the first time I'm hearing of the fag hag/BPD link. Very interesting.

[quote]yes, I'm talking to you, Kathy Griffin

Lol

Do they improve with age, as is often claimed?

I work with one (I'll call her "Liz"), and we're both now tenured professors in the same department.

Liz and I were close for a while when we both started out at the job, but she kept coming to my office to rant and rave to me about how much she hated all of other colleagues and how she kept planning to embarrass them by sending emails to our students' parents calling our colleagues out on their inadequacy as responsible faculty members. (It stupidly never occurred to me that Liz would never be able to find our students' parents' emails.) I went to a therapist years ago for an unrelated problem, and during therapy Liz's name would come up, and I'd tell my therapist about her behavior that stressed me out so much. After listening to me describe the problem, he described Liz as "a splitter," and told me that people like her tend to seek out people like me who he termed empathetic and mild-mannered.

I started distancing myself from Liz, and she seemed to realize I was not interested in being close friends with her anymore. But when I became the department chair she went off the rials during a department meeting once and started furiously referring to the rest of the faculty members in our department as "feeble" for disagreeing with her on an issue before us. When I called her out on this, she went even more nuts, and started sending me angry emails. I asked the dean to step in to mediate the problem, but Liz refused to let him step in (she told me, "The time for our working this out in any way IS NOW OVER!" in an email), and accused the dean and me both of colluding against her.

Two years ago, Liz started verbally attacking a female member of our department's senior faculty for disagreeing with her about another issue before us, and late at night sent an email to the entire department (including the junior faculty members and the visiting faculty!) accusing this other woman of being "a toxic mess" and attacked her for her class background. The attacked colleague was terrified and humiliated and refused to come to campus for days. Another senior colleague asked me if she and I could formally file a complaint against Liz with HR for sending out this email, and I agreed since it seemed to go well beyond professional boundaries . When faced with the formal complaint, Liz admitted to the bad behavior... but she demanded I personally no longer be allowed to speak to her again or be near her on campus because I had filed a formal complaint about her, especially (she claimed) since I had treated her so badly over the "feeble" incident a few years previous. I had to meet with this new dean, who agreed this was a classic case of retaliation, especially since Liz had refused to allow the previous dean to mediate.

I now avoid Liz now at all costs, so in a way she got her wish, even though the Dean agreed this would have to be voluntary on my part and that enforcing it would indeed be the whacked-out woman. it turns out multiple other faculty have also filed formal complaints against Liz for similar behaviors, and though this may affect her salary (I have no idea whether this is the case or not, though), the college cannot fire her because she's tenured. She seems to have settled down since our last incident, and I am hoping she retires soon. She's almost entirely avoided by the rest of the faculty because of her unstable and aggressive behavior.

Does Liz's first name start with J, r96?

r97: No.

R92 You know, borderlines are primarily attracted to narcissists. So if "all fag hags are BPD", what does that say about "all fags"?

Not all fags swan around fag hags r99

Not all faghags have BPD, and neither do all people with BPD flock to narcissists, r99.

That's erroneous reasoning.

R101 My point in responding to R92, who claims exactly that.

R95 - the answer is yes ... but I didn't know the actual stats so I looked it up:

McLean Study of Adult Development (MSAD):

This is one of the longest-running studies on BPD, tracking 290 inpatients with BPD (mean age 27 at baseline, so primarily in their 20s to early 30s) and a comparison group, with assessments every 2 years starting in 1992.

• By 16 years of follow-up (participants in their 40s–50s), 99% achieved at least a 2-year remission, and 78% achieved an 8-year remission.

• At 27 years (participants in their 50s), 92% no longer met BPD criteria.

• A 2025 update from the study reported 100% eventual remission across participants, with 77% maintaining a 12-year remission (assessments up to ~24 years).

So, pretty dramatic changes across time

Dang R103. I would assume it's because BPD sounds circumstantial. But it's interesting that a couple of posters above claimed it's the least treatable.

* Oh - one other thing that was interesting, is that there was no difference found in the rates of remission between men and women with BPD (in this and other BPD studies). I had suspected that the women might heal their BPD to a greater extent through more relationships, therapy, etc but apparently not

Can I get a DL Diagnosis for my very close friend of 40 years? (Apologies for the long reply....)

-Very empathetic

-Very hilarious and loud

-First one to listen to you when the shit hits the fan, and offers excellent empathetic advice

-Not above breaking many 'rules' that seem inconvenient to him

-Excellent memory, and can reference many things said to him, or coming from decades of observation of the world.

-Dislikes being alone, unless he has a project he's obsessed with.

-Obsesses on a project to the failure of everything else

-Can't handle sweat on his body, must shower any time there is sweat present

-Perpetually late to meetings because of the time lost on the obsession of the moment. He has started to admit this to people as he's gotten older, and sets better expectations ahead of time.

-Has lost many friends for his reputation of being high maintenance. But to be fair, the 20 or so friends he has now are the most mature crop of people he's had in his life. Good riddance to most of the older folks.

-High opinion of his talents - but to be fair, his talents are pretty awesome

-Smokes weed 2-3x a day, every day, for the past 35 years

-Has taken LSD on many many occasions in the past 35 years - at least 500 times

-Feels deeply betrayed by others when they offer any criticism of his behavior at all. This has loosened up in the past 10 years a bit, though. He has a sense of humor sometimes about hearing feedback on his behavior, now in his 50's

-But, he has extreme fits of happiness and glee when a creative project comes out well. And, when he feels marginalized by anyone in society, like someone making fun of him, he gets very very sad and sometimes very angry and defensive, sometimes out in public. He's been kicked out of a few bars, for instance, for being outspoken against those whom he feels are being homophobic towards him.

-Very fastidious about being clean, perfect hair, and well moisturized - many cosmetics. To be fair, he is extremely handsome.

-Given that many people have responded to his warm, empathetic, handsome, star quality, most people have actually betrayed him by not being good friends to him at all - they just wanted to get in his pants, and failed, and then talked shit about him to other people. He has standards for this kind of behavior coming at him and over the years, he's let many people go. He's also forgiven some people who later grow up and ask for friendship again. I think he forgives too easily.

-That said, he's always been a park cruiser, finding guys to suck him off at night. He has more control over the situation than in the above ones.

-All jobs he has procured in his adult life have ended dramatically, with a firing or dismissal, or walking off the job, with him being "completely in the right" and "unfairly judged by others". He stopped working at 35, and twenty years later, he makes money off of odd jobs, lives in the house he inherited from his grandfather, and his husband makes good enough money to fill in the blanks, mostly. The summer air conditioning required in Georgia ends up being one of their worst bills, but it's required, due to the no sweating requirement he has for himself.

-Instead of steady work, he instead spends his day on many projects at home, and makes their home fantastically decorated and clean as a whistle, a point of pride for him, and a great place to hang out.

***

I would tend to not categorize him, and just think of him as a good friend and great person, an overachiever in some respects who has some basic flaws (maybe some of which he won't admit to himself). He's afraid of being alone, with maybe some touches of OCD. But the extreme emotions I experience from him seem to make me wonder if there is anything else going on. If I were to think of him as having NPD, I can't believe that, given his extreme empathy towards others, and the hours he will spend listening to others' problems, and giving great advice. He helped care for my mother when she was ill - that kind of thing.

Diagnose my friend Datalounge!

I knew one at work. We were friends but she’d get pissed over stupid stuff and give me the silent treatment until I made huge overtures to apologize. Finally one day she got mad because she said hello to me while I was literally running to make it to work on time and didn’t hear/see her. I’d had enough and just wrote her off instead of playing the same game. In response she made every effort to poison everyone at work against me so I finally requested to change teams. Much like NPD, the only answer is distance.

R106 While I suspect your "friend" might actually be you (no shame) I will oblige you with my internet armchair diagnosis: Undiagnosed Adult ADHD with Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria.

@106: Loud, late, issues with weed, very sensitive to perceived rejection, lots of different jobs, gifted-but-doesn't-live-up-to-"potential, keen sense of justice/injustice, weird body hypersensitivity (in his case:can't stand the feeling of sweat), hyperfocus on certain projects... I agree that it sounds like undiagnosed/untreated ADHD. Or, maybe just a guy with no diagnosable issues: just a specific personality.

"Anyway, tell me your stories, DL. Ultimately, how does one deal with this kind of -- for lack of a better term -- crazy?"

Read up on, and practice, "gray rock."

I don't want to grey rock her, r110. I want to be a good friend to her, whatever that looks like.

A thing I dislike about definition of personality disorders is the implication that histrionic loss of self-control should be tolerated. If you have enough self-control to get by in life, exercise some more to stop creating drama.

I find it difficult to muster up tons of sympathy for cognizant and intelligent adults who ‘just can’t help themselves’.

Some therapy should have more of a tough love approach. Point out socially harmful behavior first, process why it’s there, and start training to stop, all at a brisk pace.

[quote]This is the first time I'm hearing of the fag hag/BPD link. Very interesting.

I think there is something to that. This woman I worked for part time as an assistant seems to fit a lot of these traits. She was separated from her husband after 34 years, an emotional mess, she caused the whole thing by cheating on him in their house and got busted when one of the kids came home too soon. She was sexually abused I think by her father when she was young, but she hated her mother. She was estranged from her 2 adult children when I came into the picture. She LOVED gay men, not a fag hag per say but she had no female friends. She was very fit and pretty (I know not typical) and felt woman were jealous of her. One minute were you an angle or her Mensch then next a total narcissist ass as she was concerned. At times she could be very funny, engaging, talked to anyone who would listen, never looked down on people, she could light up a room. At other times almost Cruella Deville level of intimidation.

We became friends very fast, I liked her, very stylish, almost Devil Wears Prada level and had the money to do so. Yet she seemed down to earth, very kind to animals, and as I said loved gay men, she would actually say that. At one point when I took her to get her hair done at a fancy salon that charges $400 a pop, she told them I was her gay husband. She often talked about wanting a Lavender marriage because it would be a lot less hassle than a real one, except she really wanted to have sex with straight men. In other ways she was like a little girl. I commented to a friend one day I felt like I was raising a 16 year old girl in a 60 year old women's body. Very intelligent but emotionally a child. Strangers would tell me how much they liked her, yet she had no friends. I felt sorry for her.

The drama was HIGH with her. She was always mad at a neighbor, always fighting with someone like a doctor, or people in her building. I was one of the only friends she had but never on her bad side. She had suicidal ideation, clinical depression and addicted to Benzos. She attempted suicide 3 times before I met her, once after I met her, and she finally did it for good about 1 month ago. 8 years of my friendship with her just wiped out. No warning, no note.

I am sad now, I am still processing, I hope she is at peace, I think I will stop typing now.

r113 my friend despised her (now deceased) mother and is estranged from her only brother. But I have also seen her hate people because they ignore her or cut her off, only for her to immediately get close again if they open the door. That makes me wonder how much of her vilification of her mother is justified. She also -- paradoxically -- doesn't have any sense of when she is being taken advantage of. (Paradoxical because she is perpetually "wronged.") It's hard to explain.

Meant to sign r114 "OP"

The way to recognize such people is by their assumption of malicious intent in others. Also, seeing things in a very immature and emotionally simple way drives such ppl to see people as either idealized or completely bad. The extreme vindictiveness in ppl with bpd is dangerous. They can’t be reasoned with or maintain non emotional information-only communication. I’ve known only one, she was an acquaintance and my massage therapist. I stopped interacting with her when she kept getting in new fights with ppl. She tried to make me a personal friend, it was very unprofessional. So when she asked me to come to her house I completely ghosted her. Quite interesting how those folks try to dominate others as others have mentioned, but it’s so unappealing. The moment the malicious gossip starts I’m gone

[quote] A thing I dislike about definition of personality disorders is the implication that histrionic loss of self-control should be tolerated.

From everyday feminism's carton "How to be support a friend with BPD":

I was a nurse on locked inpatient psych units for 10 years, and the hardest ones to deal with were those with BPD. For whatever reason, they have no grounded personality of their own, so, to lend themselves a sense of personal power, they have to constantly create havoc among people around them. The more they make others feel insecure, then the more secure they feel.

Like Bipolar, though, the highs they get from their behavior tend to deter them from being willing to change. So any recovery is unlikely, especially since they’re unwilling to take medication once they’re no longer supervised. Wherever they go, they’ll always stir up contention.

If you can, avoid them.

R103 Id imagine its similar to 'eating disorder recovery' , or other behavioral issues steeped in compulsion, is the loss of energy in a person, they essentially exhaust themselves into a state of remission. Added the other social withdrawal that happens as we age, would provide far less fuel sources for the fires they need to keep stoked to have enough chaos to 'hid' in.

^hide....

OP, this thread is useful:

I became acquainted with a borderline back in 2016 we'll call Gary because that's his real name. Fortunately it didn't last long, less than 2 months. I was introduced to Gary by a mutual friend, who I learned was trying to get rid of him. Gary & I hung out a few times, then he went on a trip to see his terminally ill sister for three weeks, and I offered to dog sit. He was back in less than two, talking about what an awful person his sister and BIL were. It was confusing because before his trip he was overcome with sadness over losing his favorite sister.

And from that point, he got very clingy and demanding. I quickly ended our new friendship and made it clear to him. He began following me around, stalking me at work, and occasionally appearing at my place at 3 am threatening to kill himself. He had a meltdown in the lobby of my work because he was not permitted inside or to contact me, and the police were called. That night he came to my home again threatening to kill both of us. I called the police. They took him to the psych hospital.

A week later I got a call from his shrink (Gary signed a release) and she told me her recommendation was no further contact, get a restraining order, that he was BPD and very delusional. And that he already had 4 others who had restraining orders filed. Gary stayed in the psych ward for 7 weeks, and was released to a group home. He was in his mid-50s and that was his first psych admission. He called and emailed several times after he got out of the hospital, but I never responded.

I imagine he wasn't hot either, R122.

Gary sounds like a piece of work.

R108, Thank you for the link. That does seem pretty close to what I'm trying to understand.

It is definitely not me. This is an anonymous forum so I've got nothing to hide. I honestly don't know who else to talk to about this person but other ElderGays on DL. We share most of the same friends so if I were to say any of this to them, it would likely get back to him, and they likely wouldn't be very objective and discrete. I don't want to upset him for the obvious reasons, like shown in your link.

R113, I'm so sorry to read this about your friend. It often seems like suicidal ideation should be limited to the young. Not someone in their 60s, who likely has been around the block enough to find fixed patterns to rely upon in life. I think benzos are evil, personally. I got into those many years ago and it all started when I just wanted a sleep aid because my partner snoring was keeping me up. It started with Ambien, and then they heard me talk about anxiety so they said I should also take Xanax. Before I knew it, I was sleeping great but was waking up with panic disorder. I would hear a car outside and i would react as if it was going to crash into my apartment. I became so scared and jumpy that I wanted to die. I wasn't sure how I could succeed in dying but I started thinking about how to kill myself with the least amount of bother to other people. Then one day I woke up, three months into this spiral and realized that none of this was me. I quit them and went through withdrawal, and got myself back.

Sorry to make this about myself, but I wonder if it may help others if I write this out. Suicidal ideation, in my case, was directly linked to a benzo addiction and nothing more.

Sorry folks, I'm R106, R125 and R126, not R103.

Oh dearing myself and probably now need my own diagnosis lol

R126 Alprazolam is known for causing rebound anxiety, ativan/lorazapam is better in that department, its a good med, not as long lasting as klonopin/clonazepam. But if you're looking for a real help with sleeping, remeron/mirtazapine a tetracyclic that is the best behavioral anchor Ive ever been on (and Ive been through MANY, MANY, MANY meds).

The only time I find xanax/alprazolam helpful is when I'm getting dental work done. Works quickly and by the time the work is done my loss of adrenaline leaves me pretty tired, non-anxious.

Never fully realized how "stirring up contention" provides some people with an incredible high.

Marilyn Monroe is thought to have had BPD.

Funny you say that R130, the woman I talked about up thread that just took her life kind of worshiped her. She had huge 5 x 5 foot framed photo of Marilyn in her bedroom. It was a very large bedroom so scale wise it fit but still that was like one of her idols.

I forgot to add that my friend, when stressed, can be very paranoid. She once mentioned that she feared a former colleague would put out a hit on her. I remember when she told me thinking that her degree of paranoia was pathological. (I mean, we can all have paranoid thoughts I suppose; what set her apart was that she sincerely believed it and had no qualms telling me. That's a fear that I would keep to myself, because I know how crazy it seems.) On another occasion, she told me once feared one of her ex's was going to put out a hit on her too.

I have been friends for a while with a paranoid schizophrenic. He sometimes goes off his meds, and even in the best of times, he has breakthrough symptoms. He can be maddening, but it's easy to tolerate, because I know he can't really help it and that living with schizophrenia is mental torture. I'm trying to get to the same place with my (suspected BPD) friend. No matter how you assign moral culpability, it's clear she suffers a lot.

*exes, before I'm "Oh, deared"

Your friend sounds like a high maintenance pain in the ass, OP. Why are you friends with her?

r134 she is very witty, world traveled, and good company. I suppose I also feel sorry for her. It's a combination of factors.