Video of Italian man from Rome agreeing with Charlie Clark and asking what they should do in Europe is going viral

His name is Lorenzo and he made a follow up video after that one went viral because of all the death threats he received.

ok

Who is Charlie Clark and why does someone keep posting about him?

He looks like a Jersey Shore reject.

That first video screams AI.

Well he’s not from Jersey.

R5 only it’s real.

Something about this seems off, seems fake. The guy has a Hollywood Italian accent. It really does seem AI.

Only it’s real. And that’s what many Italians from Rome sound like speaking English.

The retard strikes again with an uneducated comment.

This shit is so fucking boring.

He made a lovely post in honor of Charlie Clark a couple of days ago. Here is his Instagram

How was it a "debate," when it was really just two dumb bitches telling each other "exaaaactlyyyy"?

Him shirtless.

Can we forgive him for being an Italian MAGA lover?

So he's a Buckeyes swim fan?

He probably doesn’t know all that r13 as he’s from Rome. He doesn’t live here. He travels here but wants to become a legal citizen.

Dumb. There are billions of people in the world but the poisonous voices are always the ones singled out by those seeking to manipulate others. Put him on ignore and move on with your lives. The future of society evolves forward, not backwards. These drips are always eventually left behind.

[quote] Can we forgive him for being an Italian MAGA lover?

No, Trump Cult membership is a mortal sin, and not to be forgiven except after extreme repentance and penance and a determination to never again engage in that sinful behavior.. Sorry, next.

None of you would kick him out of bed for eating pasta and dripping sauce/gravy all over the new white sheets. Hot man.

[quote]Can we forgive him for being an Italian MAGA lover?

What are Lorenzo's specific views? I'm not going to judge him without knowing the specifics, not vague generalities.

This doesn't seem right. Italian men are usually very open minded, tolerant and progressive.

American political terms don't necessarily mean the same things in Europe.

R19 has never been to Italy.

Idk where that lie stems from but it’s a LIE

He’s using it in American terms while in America. Please use your brain. I understand you’re uneducated and don’t have any college knowledge but it’s very simple.

R20 your lack of education is shining bright.

That’s not something to be proud of. You should feel ashamed.

[quote]This doesn't seem right. Italian men are usually very open minded, tolerant and progressive.

Italian’s are very much against mass immigration, the whole “woke” (for want of a better word) mindset. Etc.

In other words, they tend to be sensible and pragmatic.

^ excuse the typo.

The “problem” both he and Kirk are referring to everyone who isn’t a straight white male

[Quote] Italian’s are very much against mass immigration, the whole “woke” (for want of a better word) mindset. Etc.

Yes, they hate gay people

Idk why someone on DL loves claiming Italians are so progressive. They’re actually not in most of the country. They’re very traditional in views most times.

Many Italians want Italians in their country, meaning no one else. Many of them don’t even want people from the likes of Scandinavia there

Italian government has been working against gay people hardcore.

The Italian Tourism Board was sure quick to jump on here, telling us not to believe our lying eyes and ears about a video of Italian man from Rome agreeing with Charlie Clark that Europe is facing the same issue as America and wants to “Make Italy Great Again”.

First off, I hate when people say Europe is facing this or that. Not all of Europe is. Europe is a continent. Name the specific countries and/or cities. There are countries in Europe that have strict immigration laws and have been sticking to them. Not all European countries are allowing everyone in.

R30 not to mention the Italian man even praises JD Vance and says if he was American he would vote for him.

[quote]Many Italians want Italians in their country, meaning no one else. Many of them don’t even want people from the likes of Scandinavia there

European countries are not melting pots. Until very recently they have been ethnically homogenous with cultures going back thousands of years. They are not like the US.

Does OP ever acknowledge in this thread let alone excuse his complete dumbassitude for "Charlie Clark" this "Charlie Clark" that.

PS Lorenzo è super sexy, guarda quei capezzoli!

Mamma Mia! If I ever get a passport, I might have to travel to Italy. Sounds like my kind of place!

Bello Lorenzo !

Your resident American expat here in Italy. I lived in Rome for two years. The guy sounds authentically Italian speaking English. I found it interesting that Charlie so easily guessed Rome, as if he were a plant in the audience. It is the capital, so it's not much of a reach. But it just reminded me of fake psychic who plants people in the audience to ask questions but slips up revealing they know everything already.

Anyway. The Italian population is dying. Not enough young people are having babies. I know about five 30 something couples all in committed relationships for years, even have bought homes together, but not a single kid between them. If Meloni was obsessed with Italy for Italians, they should be creating more reasons for young Italians to stay and not go abroad looking for work. Having a kid shouldn't be so expensive and young people should have more opportunities.

Italy doesn't hate gay people. They don't care what you are as long as you get married and have kids - pretty much. There are so many men comfortable with other men and so many men that like the attention of other men. Roman culture is in their blood, so ultimately sex between men isn't looked at as some failure in your masculinity like it is in America. I am not saying it happens all the time. But there isn't this hyper-masculinity that chokes of the humanity in men. I have zero problems being gay here, never have. And it is pretty much assumed that the church is gay. That's where gay men go, into the church. And Italians surprisingly ARE NOT churchy. Swearing allegiance to God, Jesus and religion is much more American. It's odd to them. They are probably equal parts more superstitious than religious. But I have never known a single Italian who goes to church. Not one.

I do know that if that dude witness the murder, he was shocked as hell. Scared to death. That kind of shit does not happen here. He'll have an amazing story to take back to Rome about the crazy Americans and their guns. The violence in America for a first world country is unparalleled. And people here are not numb to it like we are. It is very unsettling for them.

How is it that these people spreading messages of hate like Charkie Kirk and Italiam Charlie Kirk, are claiming to be God gering- wearing cross necklaces etc Which God do they beleieve in??

R38 great fake story, posting from the states lmao

Charlie doesn’t say he’s from Rome, he asks Lorenzo “you’re from Italy?” And Lorenzo replies yes from Rome.

He is very clearly from Italy dear. Someone on twitter said he’s the most Italian looking Italian in the best ways and that’s true. He looks Italian and he sounds Italian so he’s probably Italian.

Lorenzo says “I am studying abroad from Italy for this semester”

Charlie asks “You’re from Italy?”

Lorenzo says “Yes from Rome”.

There is no conspiracy here. The dialogue is all there in the video. All one has to do is actually listen.

[quote] European countries are not melting pots. Until very recently they have been ethnically homogenous with cultures going back thousands of years.

Huh? Those thousands of years saw incessant movement of populations from one region to another. Even once the basic modern borders were established in the early Middle Ages, wars and famines and other events pushed groups around. Within countries there were always huge divisions of language, religion, etc. This myth of "homogenous" European countries was made up in the 19th century.

Oh look, another Charlie Clark thread.

And Europeans despise each other. If not for the threat of immigrant hordes, they'd be dropping bombs on each other. The present kumbaya, and moreover, the rightist calls for a "White" identity are completely anomalous and unlikely to be sustainable. Get rid of the immigrants and watch the next war start.

Issue is Europeans don’t view each other as one because they aren’t one. Americans love umbrella terms like white to make everyone under “white” sound like one people but that’s not real. In Europe, all over there too, they view people from certain parts of Europe as very different than them.

[quote]R38 great fake story, posting from the states lmao

Moron, that’s our resident ex-pat in Italy, who currently lives in Firenze. (?) (Bologna?)

What he says is valid.

R47 when do the lies stop?

r43 European countries are still not melting pots like the US is.

Thanks for coming to my defense R47. I was coming here to do the same. My bad on the Audio. I thought the Italian guy was just repeating what Charlie said. Anyway the rest of what I have to say is my true personal experience. I

And yes I am in Florence, Firenze.

No way to time stamp this but this was outside my window tonight. Noisy teenagers on a Friday night. And it’s 1:59 am here now.

Sure…. Lmao. Ridiculous

Sure, R49, most European countries don't have the openness to immigration that America—except for our long strain of nativism and xenophobia, which currently dominates the ruling party—does. But that European attitude isn't based on actual homogeneity. Like it or not, European countries *have* always been melting pots—maybe even more so than the US, given that the differences have melted down so well that people like you don't know about them.

r52 it's not the same, various tribes within the same region is not like a true melting pot culture.

UK, France, Switzerland seem extremely melting pot to me.

[quote]Can we forgive him for being an Italian MAGA lover?

Yes, if he comes to confession, and performs....penance.

What are "various tribes within the same region," R53? We're talking about European countries that over thousands of years have absorbed populations from different directions. Who are "the French"? "The Germans"? "The Italians"? "The Spanish"? They're all mixtures coming from different directions during antiquity and the Middle Ages and even since then.

r56 they weren't all that different from each other. The current situation in Euorpe is much, much different.

R54 UK and France or more diverse because they had colonies all over the world - India, Asia, Africa, the Americas, Caribbean and those people can movie freely within those tei countries. Switzerland seems to be a melting pot of Europe.

They are definitely not R43. They are extremely homogenous. I am black and live here in Florence. I know a handful of other black Americans but they are all women. I don’t think I’ve ever come across another black American male living here. There are African immigrants. Indians, definitely Asians. Actually Cinese is the word they use for corner stores. I have to get a shirt tailored and the woman told me go to the Cinese - the tailor shop, without batting an eye. Diversity here though is pretty much someone from Naples living in Tuscany. There is no birthright citizenship in Italy. So once a foreigner, always a foreigner unless you become a citizen - which takes ten years.

Btw, Italian men can be so pretty or masculine hot. The guy in the video doesn’t come close to the level of attractive you can see on the daily. And he’s definitely “amercanized” with a built body like that. Italians, if they are muscular, have bodies so right you wonder where their guts are. They aren’t for the most part hulking and muscle bound.

I took this out my same window r51 this June during the Calcio Storico - Rossi vs. Bianchi in piazza Santa Croce. My apartment door is right at the entrance gate for the Rossi.

The link, sorry.

R59 again, stop.

The sceptic has to just be trolling at this point.

R57, the "current situation in Europe" is not all that different from the mixture of Romans, Germanic speakers, Jews, Berbers, Arabs, and who knows who else that passes for "Spanish." And if you think that the Germans, Romans, and Celts that (with various other components) combined into English, French, and Italian really weren't all that different from each other, you should read up on what the people of the time had to say. This guy in OP's link who doesn't like migrants coming to Italy is himself a genetic product of peoples coming in from north, south, east, and west—he just doesn't like it happening now.

[quote]And he’s definitely “amercanized” with a built body like that. Italians

True. A jacked up body is actually sort of seen as gross. Italian men tend to be light above the waist but with good legs and ass. It's a soccer culture.

Oh and for the sceptic: I'm in the US now but have lived in Italy for nearly all of my adult life.

[quote]Italy doesn't hate gay people. They don't care what you are as long as you get married and have kids

True about the gay part. But in my Tuscan town I know sooo many unmarried straight men. If they're not married they're divorced. You'll also see groups of men out to dinner together. And there's no problem for two straight guys to go out to dinner together. You see it everywhere.

I lived as an out gay man in Italy and never had a problem socially or at work. People really don't care.

R64 lies lies lies. Get a job.

[quote]This guy in OP's link who doesn't like migrants coming to Italy is himself a genetic product of peoples coming in from north, south, east, and west—he just doesn't like it happening now.

His is a sentiment shared all over Europe.

R65 yeah, ok.

There are people all over Europe who get off on eating poop, r66.

The fact that it's a common sentiment doesn't mean that it's right or that the average person blames all their problems on immigrants. Anti-immigrant politicking is a collosal grift and most people aren't stupid enough to fall for it.

R67 how sad is your life you have to make up shit like that? Look at your posting history

R68 You're wrong. And your first sentence is ridiculous and has nothing to do with anything.

Why do you think Europe had veered so far to the right?

People do not want mass immigration from 3rd world countries.

Very cute but until he demurely shows taint he’s no balding slut Pietro Boselii

[quote]The Italian Tourism Board was sure quick to jump on here, telling us not to believe our lying eyes and ears about a video of Italian man from Rome agreeing with Charlie Clark that Europe is facing the same issue as America and wants to “Make Italy Great Again”.

Uh...tourism is booming in Italy. The Italian Tourism Board has no need to explain anything to anybody. BTW: Italians voted for right wing Giorgia Meloni and are happy with her and The Brothers of Italy.

Italians also want tourists to go away

That also sounds very progressive and tolerant.

R74 Explain to us why Italians should want to see their towns and cities overrun with mass tourism.

[quote] This doesn't seem right. Italian men are usually very open minded, tolerant and progressive.

Tossing bananas at black players on the football pitch is surely an enlightened humanitarian act.

Not to mention the majority of Italians (especially the men) voted in a SUPER conservative whose campaign ran on anti gay rhetoric

I love how Americans have created this fake reputation for Italians

Walk through Rome or Naples or Milan, especially in the evening and you will understand the sentiment. The Italians have been fucked over multiple times and mass immigration with professional gangs stealing your shit in broad daylight and molesting you and scamming you like in every European big city is not helping.

R76: what year did that incident happen, how many men were responsible and what were the consequences? Furthermore: what country is filled with your ideal of tolerant and progressive men?

Italy also made it where violence against gays can’t be considered a hate crime

R80 "Hate crime" is a contemporary American concept that the left tried to import to Italy and other European countries. In Italy crime is crime, no matter who it is directed against.

R81 My advice to you is to stay away from Italy. The country and it's culture is not for you. Don't go there. Stay in the USA.

Maybe Rome or Naples or Milan should be asking Trump to send in the National Guard?

The MIGA crowd here would welcome it with open arms.

R83 it isn’t for you either. You’re in the USA. Enough.

R84 The military already patrols Italian streets and has for decades.

Milan's homicide rate is 0.5 deaths per 100,000

Philadelphia (a city of comparable size) the homicide rate is 21.5 per 100,000 people

Gays shouldn't be paying 100,000 just to have a crying brat

[quote]I love how Americans have created this fake reputation for Italians

"Freedom House rates people’s access to political rights and civil liberties in 208 countries and territories through its annual Freedom in the World report. "

"Freedom in the World Score" 2025:

Italy ranks 89/100

USA ranks 84/100

.........

Reporters Without Borders (Reporters sans frontières)

Press Freedom in the world 2025:

Italy ranks 49th.

The USA ranks 57th.

R88 that has to do with A LOT MORE than gay rights, which is what is being discussed . Jesus you have no fucking media literacy or common sense.

Too fucking busy lying about living in Italy when you should be signing up for college courses or a job.

[quote]This doesn't seem right. Italian men are usually very open minded, tolerant and progressive.

[quote]Tossing bananas at black players on the football pitch is surely an enlightened humanitarian act.

There is a delusional subset of Americans who want to believe that Europe is a utopia and thus people there must be "very open minded, tolerant and progressive."

^ DL's bag lady strikes again.

R91 is meant for R89

When was Italy bad? I mean no place is perfect. I have a feeling his vision would make the place more chaotic than it is there, but I’m an ignorant American who knows nothing.

R79 Racial Bias in Fans and Officials: Evidence from the Italian Serie A

R19 What are you talking about? Italy is the most conservative country in the western Europe

Italy? Great? Again?

Oh my sides.

Che corpo sexy, il suo sedere dev’essere una delizia. No doubt some Mormon chick has had her tongue in those cheeks. Give him a green card, pronto and prego

R81, that particular ruling does not specifically target gay men. There are anti-surrogacy laws for everyone in a lot of European countries, not just Italy. They see it as akin to human trafficking - renting a woman's womb for your baby. I think the thing that makes Italy's laws stronger is that they forbid you from doing it abroad as well as in Italy which makes it virtually impossible for gay men, because you can't explain how you have a baby, where a straight couple could just say they got pregnant.

Living here, I was surprise to learn that they do have stronger hate speech laws than in America. You can get fined or risk other severe penalties for publicly calling someone a "f*g" or its equivalent here. It's a criminal offense if it includes threats of acts of violence.

[quote]If hate speech against sexual orientation also insults a person's honor or reputation, it can be prosecuted as defamation under Article 595 of the Italian Criminal Code, potentially leading to imprisonment or a fine.

[quote]If the hate speech includes a threat, it falls under the crime of threatening (Article 612 of the Criminal Code) and is punishable by a fine or imprisonment.

^ but it is different than US hate speech laws that specifiy certain groups. In Italy crime is crime no matter who it is directed to. Italy has strong laws against slander and defamation. …and it applies to everyone in the same measure.

R99, Italy's specific defamation law covers protected characteristics such as race, ethnicity, religion, or nationality. Sexuality isn't included but it can be viewed as insulting someone's honor or reputation and therefore covered under Articl 595 as mentioned above.

I guess the main point is you can still call someone a F*G in the streets in the US and get away with it. In Italy, if a cop is around, you can get fined for saying such a thing.

You can also get fined in Italy if you call someone a fat slob. Once again: there are NO hate laws in Italy designed for specific groups of people. Slander laws apply to everyone equally.

What if you actually ARE a fat slob and someone in Italy calls you that? Asking for a friend.

Italy doesn’t protect the gays and the person desperate to argue that is unironically the resident slow person of DL with numerous accounts and no job or higher education

He released a new video message today saying Charlie’s voice will remain and be shared non stop by him

R101 YES they do. There is a SPECIFIC law that covers hate speech. It's not just a general defamation law. It's the Mancino Law.

The primary law, Article 604 bis of the Criminal Code (known as the "Mancino Law"), targets propaganda and incitement to violence and discrimination based on race, ethnic origin, nationality, and religion.

Mancino Law (Article 604 bis): This law criminalizes propaganda and incitement to commit crimes against groups defined by race, ethnic origin, nationality, and religion.

Protected Groups: The law explicitly protects against discrimination and incitement based on: Race / Ethnic origin / Nationality / Religion

Penalties: Violators can face imprisonment and fines.

Sexual Orientation is not specifically covered under this particular law BUT article 595 of the Italian Criminal code allows for prosecution for speech that defames one character including hate speech based on sexual orientation.

It's pretty clear.

R105 Then why was a SPECIFIC hate crime law proposed and shot down? (see post R80)?

BTW: the Legge Mancino has been in effect since 1993.

R106 a specific law that covers JUST sexual orientation was shot down I already said twice there wasn’t one, but that it can be addressed through different measures. The bill you were talking about was shot down because Right-wing and Catholic groups heavily opposed the bill, viewing it as a threat to freedom of expression and traditional values.

R103 I never said Italy protected gays. I just pointed out that you can be fined here for using a separators slur against a gay person in public where as in the U.S. someone can shout “f*g” at you with no repercussions. At least there’s that. AND that Italy is less religious than America and that MOST doN’t care if you’re gay.

^ derogatory slur

Of course he’s hot. I know, they’re a dime a dozen there but still.

[quote]AND that Italy is less religious than America

Honey, the Vatican has a noose wrapped around Italy. When do you think you’re getting gay marriage? You’re delusional. It’s a backwards place that now has a self-avowed fascist running it.

And the US has the First Amendment so we can speak freely and honestly. You don’t have free speech. We don’t need a nanny government coming to our rescue. Hate speech laws are censorship and can be used by government to shut up dissent. This is why Nazis are getting back into power. People are fed up. The hate goes underground and boils over.

[quote]There are anti-surrogacy laws for everyone in a lot of European countries, not just Italy. They see it as akin to human trafficking - renting a woman's womb for your baby.

Which is pure misogyny. They’re telling women what they can and can’t do with their own bodies. They treat them like infants. Italy is one of the most misogynistic countries in all of Europe.

Europe is responsible for two world wars. Nuff said.

R111 what the hell are you even talking about? Of course Italy has free speech. Free Speech and Freedom of the Press is explicitly written into the constitution. Free Speech does not cover - hate speech and defamation. And MOST interesting, freedom of speech in Italy does not cover praising or promoting Fascism, it’s illegal.

Have you ever been here? People here view the Church as another branch of the government. I don’t know a single Italian who goes to mass. Government officials are not wearing giant crosses promoting their love of Jesus Christ. They definitely aren’t falling pray to bible selling Presidents. Religion is very rarely mixed with politics. As I said Italy in practice is much less religious than America. Italy has a female, unwed single mother who got knocked up by her boyfriend as president. Yes she’s far right - but that alone speak volumes as to how religious Italy actually is.

^ this means displaying or parading Nazi flags when used to promote racial hatred, violence or discrimination in Italy is illegal. So are any attempts to divide fascist parties. That’s why there was a major uproarhere recently when it appeared that this was happening

[quote] European countries *have* always been melting pots

Really? When was the last time the UK had a black Prime Minister? Or Italy have an Asian Prime Minister, or France have a Mexican President?

[quote]Not to mention the majority of Italians (especially the men) voted in a SUPER conservative whose campaign ran on anti gay rhetoric I love how Americans have created this fake reputation for Italians.

The same could be said about America voting in a dictator who also ran on anti-LGBTQ rhetoric. I love how Americans created this fake reputation of a melting pot where everyone has equal rights and respect.

Religion in Italy has been collapsing for the last 40 years. Foreigners are surprised by the stereotype has not been true for decades and close to 80% of Italians no longer even go to church.

R118, YouTube is not real life. Stop posting your shitty YouTube links.

Also you don’t see the proselytizing of religion in Italy as you do in the US. And outside of the Pope you don’t have the presence of religious celebrities that we have in the US. No 700 club and that sort of stuff on TV.

[quote] Which is pure misogyny. They’re telling women what they can and can’t do with their own bodies. They treat them like infants. Italy is one of the most misogynistic countries in all of Europe.

R112 almost every single major European country prohibits surrogacy out concern for the possibility of exploitation and health risks to women. France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Sweden - the list goes on. It’s not just Italy.

And by the way, prostitution is legal in Italy.

[quote]Which is pure misogyny. They’re telling women what they can and can’t do with their own bodies. They treat them like infants. Italy is one of the most misogynistic countries in all of Europe.

This is how Italy treats expectant mothers:

Italian Maternity Leave: Duration: 5 months (18 weeks) of fully paid leave. 2 months (8 weeks) before the due date. 3 months (10 weeks) after the birth.

During the mandatory period, mothers receive 80% of their salary, paid by the National Institute for Social Security (INPS). Some collective bargaining agreements require employers to cover the remaining 20%, resulting in 100% pay.

In some cases, the leave period can be extended if the mother or child has health issues.

Maternity leave is protected by law, and employers cannot terminate a woman's employment due to pregnancy or maternity leave.

Fathers are entitled to 10 working days of mandatory, fully paid leave. The leave is paid at 100% of the father's salary by the INPS.

Now, tell us how those women are treated in the USA.

[quote] Also you don’t see the proselytizing of religion in Italy as you do in the US.

YES, THEY DO.

Jesus Christ, do you even have a passport!?

[quote]almost every single major European country prohibits surrogacy out concern for the possibility of exploitation

Yes, misogyny. They see women as too stupid to make their own decisions.

"Charlie Clark"

The right-wing trolls love him so much that they don't know his name

R123 You are wrong. They do not.

Please list the religious TV shows in Italy and religious personalities proselytizing Catholism and their reach. List them for me.

Where's the equivalent of a Billy Graham or Franklin Graham or Tony Evans or Pat Robertson or Jimmy and Tammy Faye or Joel Osteen or Jerry Falwell or Ted Haggard? Name them.

BTW: I lived and worked in Italy nearly 40 years. Virtually my entire adult life.

Now tell me about you.

[quote]YouTube is not real life. Stop posting your shitty YouTube links.

And you posting on the DL is real life? 😂😂🤣😂😂😂🤣🤡

I would like to know when and where R123 saw anyone proselytizing for Jesus Christ in Italy.

[quote]Yes, misogyny. They see women as too stupid to make their own decisions.

Meanwhile R124 Europe has elected about 25 women to the highest positions in the land - Prime Minister or President. Your claim doesn't hold up.

[quote] I don’t know a single Italian who goes to mass.

What is your sample size? Is mass attendance the measure of belief?

Yes, R129, mass attendance would be one of the major determining factors in the growth or decline of Catholicism in Italy considering that attending mass and receiving the eucharist is a major tenet of the faith.

My sample size would be all of the Italians I have talked to living here for four years - friends or friends of friends I have met. It's not like they talk about not going to church or the decline of the church. They don't talk about it at all. It is not a part of the conversation.

The fact that walking around Rome you see a ton of nuns and the Italian ones are at least 60+ and all the younger nuns are either South American, Indian, African or Asian - Sister Mary Indigenous. The priests are still mostly white, I am not sure of the percentage that are Italian, but definitely gay parading about in their cassocks with their cincutri dramatically blowing in the wind. The church is a place of power not worship for men, and young priests come across much like young men heading to their internships on Capital Hill.

Also that fact that Easter is like Italian's version of Thanksgiving in America. It is a big holiday to gather with family and have a big meal. Its not even the day that lazy Catholics here think about going to Church. There are churches on every corner here and on Sundays or weekdays during mass time, there is never a procession of people through the streets heading to service. And I have been in Churches while mass is going on and there are about twenty people in the pews.

And I will add to all of this that diehard Catholics have been disillusioned by the liberal message of the last and current pope. So they have fallen off a bit as well. St. Peter's Square is a tourist destination where you see groups of pilgrims from all over the world, and not necessarily Italy, and vendors with arms full of pre-packaged rosaries waiting for the Pope's blessing at the end of his weekly public address so that they can sell them later on the street as "blessed by the Pope" to tourist.

So, yeah, this is where I am getting my opinion from. I think R126 might agree with me.