Women are feeling exhausted with "Mankeeping" in their relationships

Many men, on the other hand, felt that they were being unfairly accused of over-burdening their female counterparts — or that normal relationship behavior was being vilified (comments sections offer evidence). For academics like Ferrara and her research assistant, Dylan Vergara, it’s a big deal for their study to become part of the cultural conversation.

But alongside the hype come myths and misunderstandings. We examined the comments from men (and women) and spoke to Vergara, a 21-year-old (male) Stanford student getting his bachelor’s in political science and his master’s in sociology, simultaneously, about the meaning of mankeeping.

Mankeeping, as Vergara and his mentor defined it, is an outgrowth of a much older term in sociology: kinkeeping. That term was coined in 1985 by Carolyn Rosenthal, whose research showed that women were far more likely to do the largely “invisible” labor of household chores, child care and simply keeping the family together and in touch with one another.

It’s a familiar phenomenon that hasn’t gone away and, some research suggests, only intensified with COVID and remote work.

Mankeeping is the work of the same nature that women do, but in support specifically of their husbands or male partners, rather than the whole family. Specifically, it’s about the way that men “[rely] on women as their predominant source of emotional support, creating undue labor on the part of women,” Vergara tells Yahoo.

He and Ferrara have interviewed nearly 100 men from around the world, “and we see that men far and wide, when naming their top five sources of social and emotional support, label their wives, girlfriends or partners as their number one,” he says. And perhaps more importantly, “a lot of times men don’t even have a top five,” he adds.

So instead of having that one friend you call about your romantic woes, that other you text whenever your boss is being difficult and a sibling you vent about your parents to, for many straight men, those people are all the same person: their female partner. “There often comes an inflection point when I’m interviewing a man when they realize, ‘Oh, wait, this is a lot’” that they're asking their female partners to do, says Vergara.

It’s a sentiment Vergara reports that he hears repeated frequently. “We are not saying you shouldn’t go to your partner for emotional support. Of course you should,” he says. Instead, the problem of mankeeping arises when men only talk vulnerably with their female partners. “Because men just tend not to have as many people they can go to for support, it’s creating a burden on the women in their lives, specifically,” says Vergara.

“Obviously, communication is key to a healthy relationship. But it’s also important to ensure that you’re not creating some extra labor on the part of the woman.”

And it’s not just the mankeeping paper that indicates it’s good to have multiple people you can talk to — or that men tend to go to their partner for support first. The Survey Center on American Life found that 85% of married men go to their spouse for personal support before talking to any friends or relatives, compared to 72% of married women.

And while emotional connection and sharing are part of good relationships, research suggests that at a certain point emotional labor can exhaust people and put them at greater risk of mental and physical health problems. Conversely, people with more close friends are less at risk for depression, multiple diseases and death, from any cause.

In other words, there’s evidence to suggest that more friends would be good for men, and distributing the emotional support would be good for their female counterparts.

It’s easy to blame the individual men for leaning too heavily on their female partners, but the researchers think the root cause of mankeeping lies beyond their control. “We too often view isolation as something that’s an individual’s fault,” says Vergara. “But it’s more of a structural issue.”

Mankeeping, he and Ferrara argue, is a result of the much-talked-about male loneliness epidemic. Vergara points out that there used to be many men-only social spaces: barbershops, men’s clubs, pubs, fraternities. “Although we don’t endorse patriarchal structures that exclude women, the degradation of those places has had a key detrimental effect on men’s ability to seek out friendships with other men,” he says.

What was once a bustling social infrastructure for men’s friendships has all but disappeared. “That’s led to this female curation of male social and emotional well-being,” says Vergara.

The point then is that men’s loneliness isn’t simply an isolated failing of each guy, nor even of the male species as a whole. Ferrara and Vergara’s research — which started by tracing male friendship and social habits throughout history — suggests that it “affects women and the entire infrastructure of men and women together,” says Vergara.

And, other scholars have argued, while women certainly can (and arguably should) care about men’s loneliness problem, that doesn’t mean they are responsible for fixing it.

Oh, brother. Mankeeping? 🤡👍😱

I take issue with Vergara's assertion that male-only spaces were conducive to the sort of lasting, emotionally-fulfilling friendships that modern men seem to lack. By most measures, the male spaces of the past (fraternal lodges, bowling alleys, titty bars, etc.) were places where men gathered, but not necessarily where men bonded in a healthy or fulfilling way. Those same generations of men have been shown to have extremely limited comfort with expressing deeper emotions or sharing with others. Your grandpa may have loved his lodge, but he probably didn't pour his soul out to his buddies there. Older generations, especially men, didn't do that with anybody.

Her secondary assertion, that women have had to fill this gap as a labor of love, is also flawed. It doesn't explain the "loneliness epidemic" among single men or gay men, or among men whose female spouses do not labor to manage a man's emotional state.

A human being should show some concern - albeit limited - when a fellow human being is chronically lonely or lost. But such concern shouldn't become burdensome, or be seen as a "labor."

WTF did you think this would be of any interest to us, OP? We’re not chicks, we’re not straight. Next.

perhaps posted so we could have fun ridiculing this.

You might want to expand your very narrow and limited horizons R5, beyond that very one-dimensional scope.

Some people are actually interested in the world beyond what's right in front of their nose.

And we also like to keep up with the zeitgeist.

But if you want to keep existing with your head up your ass, by all means DO.

I’ve noticed younger women getting on their soapboxes to complain about things like this, “situationships,” etc.

But they’re just as bad as young men, in their own way.

I was skimming a girl-focused insta and in one post the women were joking about how they never ever find anything men talk to them about interesting. It was a subject of considerable hilarity, how they tune all men out. This was a joke in the Barbie movie that women squealed with delight over.

But on that same insta were multiple posts bemoaning how men only want “situationships.” The irony in these two positions is fucking OVERWHELMING, but seemed to be lost on them completely.

There was another post there about how a woman wouldn’t date a man if he had photo dumps or selfies on his IG. He preferably shouldn’t have one at all. Well yeah, that is the typical strong silent masculine type women actually love, and prefer over touchy feely girly men. But that goes hand in hand with the emotional remoteness they are bitching about in OP’s link.

They seem to want to eat their cake and have it too.

They seem to want to eat their cake and have it too.

Exactly.

Women don't know what the fuck they want.

If men don't talk, then women complain. "You never open up. You never talk about things with me." Waaaaah.

If men DO talk, then women complain about "man keeping."

Which is it, then? Idiots.

American women are the worst.

Mankeeping is a great word.

And it is true: Most straight guys barely have any friends and rely almost exclusively on their partner to keep them company, be their therapist, their mother, their lover.. All in one.

All this “men are from Mars, women are from Venus” reductiveness is tiresome and lazy.

There is some “on average, overall” truth in it .. but show me 10 heterosexual marriages and I’ll show you 10 different sets of relationship dynamics.

The mere title of this thread exhausted me. I'll show myself out now. If I tried, I couldn't think of a subject I would find less interesting.

It's just my experience but my dad womankept my mom for decades, rather than the reverse. And I am sure womankeeping is just as common as mankeeping.

All these labels is what is exhausting. STFU Gen Z know-nothing sociologist.

Funny how you never see academic papers about how men have to listen to women go on and on about their work, family, or other emotions and men just have to receive it and support it. But when men have problems or want to voice what is going on with them emotionally - it's Mankeeping.

This is why I'm glad I'm gay - this woman/man difference bullshit is exhausting. Each side trying to understand the other and never fully will.

You can have it. We gays have our own problems for sure - but fuck it if I don't feel like being gay allowed me to dodge a bullet and am able to have a happier life because of it.

The heterosexual world is weird and abusive on both sides - it really is.

Someone's in need of a topic for their academic career.

"And while emotional connection and sharing are part of good relationships, research suggests that at a certain point emotional labor can exhaust people and put them at greater risk of mental and physical health problems." Huh - 85% of their men lean toward their wife for emotional support and 72% of women.

BUT - we know men don't open up as much as women, but men have to listen to women go on about co-workers, family, work, friends and get dragged into the middle of it.

Why do 85% of men go to women when they DO need it? Cuz if the wife found out they were talking to someone else about their problems or marriage, they would lose it.

Meanwhile, women blab every personal detail about their marriage and their husband to their friends - and men know this - and that's just fine?

I swear - women bitch about everything they don't have 100% control over at all times, it seems.

[quote] this woman/man difference bullshit is exhausting

This woman/man DOUBLE STANDARD bullshit is exhausting.

Fixed it for you.

Straight people really hate each other don’t they?

R19 - yep. They really make it look bad. All the cheating, divorces, child abuse, prostitution, strip clubs, having babies they can't afford - the list goes on and on.

They're really sick and twisted - AND they love the drama.

Miserable people most of them.

Yes, partnered women have always been so encouraging of their men to go out for boys nights and hang out with their buddies.

Truer words have never been spoken

The word is stupid but the dynamic is very old and common.

I don't know if we, as gay people, are qualified to comment on this topic. From the outside, which is all it can ever be to me, I have often observed that women who are in a relationship with a man will not allow him to have female friends that he meets with solo - she must be present. Otherwise, his friendship with those other women will be regarded as emotional betrayal, and possibly as precursors to sexual betrayal. So, if women feel overwhelmed by having to satisfy all these friend and lover and therapist roles for the men in their lives, I do feel this is partly self-inflicted. Straight men are pretty comfortable with having their wives or girlfriends have male friends, as long as those male friends are gay - or much older or younger. They will not be copacetic with a wife who has a best friend who is an attractive man of her same age (in general).

But, within the gay community, as a single gay man, I have also observed that gay men in relationships tend to socialize with other gay couples, not with single gay men. I don't think it's a conscious decision. I think it's a subconscious awareness that a single man represents a sexual threat to the gay relationship.

Basically more and more of today’s straight women want their men to be men only during those 5 minutes when they want to allow their men inside their vaginas.

[quote]I don't know if we, as gay people, are qualified to comment on this topic.

Yes, we are. We have fathers, brothers, and sons. Women are exhausting.

The premise of this whole thing is that straight men are constantly talking about their emotions and feelings and burdening their wives with it.

When the fuck did that start happening?

Meanwhile, men have to hear about every damn thing, every conflict, every 'and she said X!', along with women's feelings and emotions - I want to feel X, I want us to do X, etc, etc.

No wonder there's been this sudden boom of men needing 'man caves' on TV. If women are boiled down to just being mothers to their kids AND husbands, then men are boiled down to just a paycheck and security.

But you don't hear men bitching and moaning nonstop. Men aren't sitting around complaining about their girlfriends and wives and their problems to their male friends all the time. Men are YASSSlighting other men to leave their girlfriends and wives.

It seems like so many women just want to complain and be miserable - and certainly won't let their boyfriend or husband be happy if they're not.

Happy wife, happy life - imagine if someone said the same about men. Never.

More pointless shit to divide people/voters and keep them from focusing on what really matters.

This is the kind of research that needs less funding.

At one time, you'd have to read Cosmo to learn about these kinds of heartbreaking problems. Now this sort of blather is everywhere in the culture.

Women complained for decades that their male partners never "opened up" to them with their feelings. But now it looks like when they do, they complain that it's "exhausting".

clearly more men need to sleep with other men

R31 - and the men have only opened up after months or years of pleading from the woman. Trust me.

Reality is - 90% of women don't want to hear men complain, show weakness, or have that much input into the home.

There are tons of posts on Reddit of men who opened up, and their female partners got the 'ick' or used their vulnerability against them later on.

Women get to cry, scream, get their emotions out to their husband/boyfriend and to their friends and family, keeping nothing back.

Straight men aren't perfect - I know that - but good God, they are constantly being criticized for every thing they do or don't do that isn't to their wives' satisfaction.

Yes r31, the show Girls actually was very funny about this. Women asserted what a modern man should be, but when guys actually were “modern men,” the women were totally unattached to them.

There’s what women say and state they want, and then there’s what their hearts tell them is attractive/sexy. Those two trains of thought are not communicating with each other.

^^^ unattracted

A lot of straight, attractive men in their 20s and 30s are basically living what used to be called a “gay lifestyle” — city living, fit, handsome, making money, enjoying freedom. There’s less social or family pressure to marry now, so why tie yourself down early?

From what I see, the guys rushing into marriage or deep relationships today tend to skew more insecure or clingy. That dynamic plays into why they may lean on their partner for so much emotional labor.

Another factor I notice constantly: some women push their partners to cut ties with friends and family, which leaves the guy isolated and overly dependent. That imbalance shifts all of the emotional weight back onto the relationship.

Women often want men to be open and emotional one day, stoic and unshakable the next. That inconsistency adds to the friction.

People always talk about incels, but nobody talks about excels. I work as a fitness/male photographer, and I see it constantly — the trainers, gym rats, crypto guys. For them, commitment and marriage feel like a nightmare. There aren’t tons of these men, but they make up the most desired group.

I think a lot of women today are being left to settle with “good dad” material.

Resident bi guy here… many of the women on the straight dating apps are the prototypical, wound up ball of self-inflicted misery. No self respecting man will tolerate a great deal of them and they have no self awareness to ever look within and reflect. This is the demographic of women who have had their minds cooked by social media algorithms. They will only be able to sink their claws into weak pushover men - never the kinds of men they actually desire.

And they will march on with a martyrdom complex about it because they have no internal will for self-reflection. For as much as the incel crowd got publicized in the last 15 years, it’s high time the “femcel” cohort gets their own time in the sun - the perennially miserable, resentful, even hateful woman who is certain “all men are trash” all the while paying for multiple dating app subscriptions for years at a time.

I remember pointing this out months ago and some useless cunt on here who later stormed off in a huff was claiming that by so much as pointing this out that it was some incel inspired position. “Uh, no bitch you’re about 10 years behind the times on this one.” But as I said, the women who’ve had their minds cooked by social media are hellbent and determined to blame men for everything wrong with themselves. “Uh, bitch, no one can stand being in the same room with your stank ass and nasty attitude. Take off the rose colored glasses, THEN look in the mirror for once!”

R 37 Impressive speech I couldn't have said it better. Cheers!

Growing up in the seventies and eighties, my dad always had a night out during the week with the guys, and my mom had a night out with the girls and they very often went out together with their friends on Saturday nights. I think it did them a world of good. My brother and his wife hardly seem to have any friends at all, and spend almost all their time running their kids around to one activity or another. I don’t know what the hell they are going to do when the kids are off to college

I think the biggest issue is that a lot of straight men don't understand balance or nuance. They either belong to the group of emotionless robots or they belong to the open emotional wounds. Some will even vacillate between both personalities, especially if they get rejected by women. Those are generally the ones women complain about.

[quote]Women are feeling exhausted with "Mankeeping" in their relationships

I initially read this as "Women are feeling exhausted with 'Manscaping' in their relationships," and I was ready to sympathize.

I find it strange that a gay forum is discussing straight relationships so actively

And so drearily.

Well, it just makes me wonder how vapid and shallow most people are. I only recently learned that half the population doesn’t even have an inner monologue — and suddenly things like this make more sense.

So many people, men and women, have nothing going on inside their heads. Their entire identity is built around generic labels like Mom, Dad, Husband, Wife — and nothing beyond that. No wonder they’re miserable.

If you ask me what I am, I’ll tell you I’m a photographer and creative director. That passion ties my whole personality together — my love for art, music, film, business. And for me, the goalpost keeps moving. I climb one hill and there’s always another.

A lot of people don’t have that. Worse, a lot don’t even want that. Which makes me wonder: what exactly do they want?

I’ve always thought calling someone sheep was outdated and didn’t make any sense but there are people who are truly sheep. So many people were just told what to do without thinking, never question it, and they’re miserable because of it.

I see it mostly with straight people but there’s definitely a lot of gays, especially affluent ones, who have this mentality post-gay marriage. Maybe it’s always been there but I see it a lot now.

Good morning women, who’s bothering you now?

R44 Not having an inner monologue just means that person doesn’t constantly experience thought as an inner audio narration. It doesn’t mean they have a less rich inner experience, if anything they think faster in the same way that reading out loud is an extremely slow way to read.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of advantages to being a gay male beyond the wonders of cock and ass.

I'm so glad my relationships with women are optional. I've dump several the past 4 years. I just got tired of their bullshit.

r44 r46 Just going by what I've observed in those I've had a chance to watch/interact with over long periods of time: Many, even most, men are so overwhelmed by the perceived demands of the here and now that they have long since set aside or lost their faculties for reflection about "where have I been" and "where am I going." They have an inner monolog, but it's about the immediate at-hand situation. These are the ones who become sheep because, without the perspective of "where have I been" and "where am I going," they can't form long-range plans and so dither about and easily become prey to being led by others who at least afford direction (though not necessarily direction in the ditherer's interest--in fact, hardly ever). Women (or men) eternally whipsawing them between "open up to me" and "oh god you expect me to 'mankeep' you all the time" only adds to the impotent feeling of being overwhelmed.

Women! Can't live with 'em . . .

Will these bitches EVER be happy?

R42 - Why do you find it strange? We live in a heterosexual world - we're bombarded with it all the time. 95% of our family, friends and co-workers are straight.

Gays and Lesbians have front row seats to this shit show and have some perspective about what they've seen their entire fucking lives. Don't act like we know nothing about it - we do.

R49 - and I'll add that divorce is initiated close to 70% of the time by women. Women win in divorce with custody, child support, division of assets. So on top of all that, men's whole family lives and finances can be ruined if she wants to leave. I'll take half your stuff please because I let you put your dick in my vagina.

Brava! . More D for us.

A lot of women work, take care of the house, the kids, the scheduling, the emotional labor, the invisible tasks. The husband brings home a paycheck but doesnt contribute domestically. He wants to sleep in and play video games. They cheat too and can be abusive. This is why the women file for divorce more frequently.

I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. I'm empathetic enough.

DAMMIT ! Why won't anyone FUCK me?

Oh, boo hoo.

R54, good for them

And I can suck the husbands’ cocks

R54 - that's a side that can be true in some cases, but not all. There's also the side where you have to ask - why are they checked out? Are they being listened to? Are they allowed to do things their way or is everything have to be done the way the wife wants it.

Sometimes women make an environment where men feel like guests/strangers in their own home that they pay for.

Or how about this - why are women having children with men the KNOW are unreliable? They want kids, have them with questionable men, then wonder why he doesn't become the man that their pet project life board goals for him to materialize.

I've seen men treated more as 2nd class persons in their homes than actual partners my whole life.

R58 A lot of men expect to be taken care of and then the wife grows resentful. When my grandmother died after they had been married 50 years my grandfather remarried within 6 months because he refused to take care of himself or the house.

R37 GET THE FUCK outta our WAY! We got a REAL HE- MAN waiting for US who can fulfill our WOMANLY NEEDS!

I say this as a proud frau, 90% of the women complaining about "mankeeping" would absolutely lose their collective shit if men confided in others and not them when it came to their issues.

Gen Z are “exhausted” having to breathe in and breathe out. If you’ve ever had the misery of working with them you know what I mean.

I think another truth is that a lot of grown men and women dont like each other. I dont think we were meant to co-exist. I think deep down a lot of people would be happier living like our primitive ancestors, the men out together hunting and gathering and the women together communally tending to the hearth

R37 Banned in 5...4..3..2..

R27 seriously. Men may depend solely on their romantic partners more for emotional support, but I guarantee you that women are still the ones to burden men more with it. Just because women do it more equally between friends, family, therapists, partners, etc, hardly means they actually do it less. Most women must unload 10 tons of emotional issues on maybe 5 different people...most men have maybe a ton to distribute between 2.

Doesnt mean there might not be a point to men trying to not depend solely on their romantic partner for suppirt, but if you frame it under it being a "nuisance" to women, then you're showing your true colors. And you're being dishonest, for the reasons stated above

He posted 11 hours ago R64 and nothing so far. Get a life.

Another thing that everyone knows happens but is rarely discussed is how women intentionally or unintentionally isolate men and bring them into 'their' world. Once they're coupled up - we should hang out with more couples! And 99% of the time, it is THEIR friends and their friends' husbands and boyfriends.

Also, women can be ruthlessly inflexible when it comes to the home and the relationship. Men get sick of the arguments and just give in and shut down. That's where 'happy wife, happy life' come in to play so often.

You see it on TV shows ALL THE TIME - women have no problems saying out loud when looking at homes, "well, I usually get what I want" or "I will have this big closet and he can have the small closet or a drawer over there". On national television - and everyone just laughs. If you fight it, it will be an ongoing battle and being iced out or other daily inconveniences until men give in.

They also will say - oh we can stretch the budget to get what I want. Infrequently, you will see the man say that - but it's usually the wife. No concept or care about the financial strain it may cause.

As much as we can say some men don't step up, we can also say that some women are extremely entitled and do not want a 50/50 relationship at all. They want a male accessory to support THEIR lifestyle.

Imagine if a man said "I usually get what I want" - accusations of abuse and terrible things would be said about him.

Until there are some reflections on both sides, I don't see this ever improving.

R67 here - one note - I will say I have noticed some healthier dynamics among the younger generation. I don't know if I'm looking at these as beacons of hope or if they are more rare than I think.

But there are some straight men and straight women who haven't fallen into this crap and seem to have great relationships - better than anything we've seen historically. Truly modern supportive relationships. They do exist.

The pearl clutching in this thread is hilarious. This is a complaint of a small subset of the straight population and here come the gays to defend a group of men who wouldn't spit on you if you were on fire.

I am tired of performing his EMOTIONAL LABOR!

Haha I’m looking at the photo in OP’s link and the first thought is the woman being “over it” that her man surprised her with a croissant from her favorite bakery but forgot she does not eat chocolate croissants before 3:30. He doesn’t LISTEN!

And here comes R69 - with nothing to add but to put down men they don't know. A small population - yet somehow this is worthy of academic research as well as coining a new term for it.

What a stupid comment. Nothing to add, nothing witty - just trying to slam everyone on this thread to make you feel superior.

Where the hell have you been R72? Everything these days is worthy of academic research, academia is full of navel gazing weirdos.

There's now a financial incentive for the vast majority of women starting 70% of divorces. If they had to walk away from the marriage like Tina Turner, that percentage would be much lower.

Any time anything pits straight men against straight women or vice versa, DL and it's outcasts jump to defend straight men as though straight guys will finally accept gays into their cool kid clique. Rinse and repeat.

My father, born in 1930, never dumped his emotional issues on my mother. He also didn’t have friends outside of hers, never got a phone call from a friend. His friends were TV and a bottle of scotch. Oh, the good old days!

R75 is R69 - doubling down on the insults of everyone on DL and calling them outcasts.

What the hell is your problem? All of us know straight men and women and we can see there are two sides to the story.

Take your shit posting somewhere else - go kick a child or a puppy or something else to get you off.

^ visiting straight man

R69 nice. Using alleged homophobia (because apparently every straight man is) to guilt gay men because you're pissy some consider women just as toxic. Oh nosies, they didn't kiss the feminist ally ring, they need to be put in their place!

Fuck off.

They are exhausted!

R77 and R79 are your feelings hurt? I see straight men and women too. I hear them more than you do. Keep sticking up for men who think you are at best, a group of women with dick and balls, and at worst, a bunch of child molesters.

[quote] I hear them more than you do.

How could you possibly know that?

R81 I'm R79 and am a woman so don't try that shit. Most straight men I know do not fall into that category, so I just calked you on your bullshit. Cope.

[quote] I think deep down a lot of people would be happier living like our primitive ancestors, the men out together hunting and gathering and the women together communally tending to the hearth

Everyone knows women would be happiest if they could just stay home birthing babies and doing needlepoint.

Sure Jan R83.

Hey everyone R81 wants everyone on this board - yes you, the outcasts and the ones sucking up to straight men who wouldn't piss on you - to listen up.

He hears conversations among straight men and straight women more than ALL OF YOU. He knows better than all of you - they come to him as the straight whisperer and he knows his shit!

So bow down to the authority of R69, R75, R81 - you don't know the amount of straight people HE does.

Insane.

These TikTok-shopped ideas and labels for everyday human experiences is making Gen z into basket cases. I blame our failed education system. Many young people have spent so little time immersed in deep intellectual curiosity that it’s allowed very basic, oversimplified, easily shared ideas to spoon feed their way right down their throats.

[Quote] Any time anything pits straight men against straight women or vice versa, DL and it's outcasts jump to defend straight men as though straight guys will finally accept gays into their cool kid clique.

Yes because all gay men care about is straight men wanting to have sex with them. They have no other social interests or observations at all.

Has it ever occurred to you that gay people are probably the most objective observers of straight relationship dynamics? We don’t have a dog in the race.

Although we do know that there are many, many dogs in that race.

[quote] Has it ever occurred to you that gay people are probably the most objective observers of straight relationship dynamics? We don’t have a dog in the race.

What a load of shit. Huge numbers of gay men view women as sexual competition.

There's too many chicks in the shithole

“Women are exhausting.” There. That’s better.

Where do they find the time r91 ? They should be on their fainting couches after a long exhausting day of "mankeeping"

Wow just when I thought this psycho asshole couldn't get any worse - now he's posting that gay men see women as sexual competition.

JFC.

Stop projecting all of your own insecurities and life experiences on to everyone else. Just because you were in love with jocks who never gave you the time of day and saw cheerleaders as your competition, it doesn't make it true for the rest of us.

Man - you need therapy, bad. No wonder you go around putting everyone else down.

Everything I said is true R94. But the displeasure you feel at being insulted is funny considering this is DL.

How dare anyone insult ME? MEEEE??? I am allowed to insult women but no one is allowed to insult me back. HOW DARE THEY!!!!

[quote]Since the term "mankeeping” was introduced in a 2024 research paper by Stanford University sociologist Angelica Ferrara, it has landed squarely in the 2025 zeitgeist.

I should like to dispute the zeitgeistness of "manscaping", courtesy of nGram.

"Mankeeping," in that very same form and spelling, was at peak zeitgeistness not in 2025 but in 1859 and 1860, the years of California and Colorado Gold Rushes. It then reached a secondary peak in 1894 on the heels on the World Columbian Exposition, followed by various other peaks, the three largest of which were in 1941, 1969, and in 2012 -- the last 13 fucking years before this so called 2025 zeitgeist.

The graph drops off in 2021, but it's not going to be aything close to the gold rush years of 1859 and 1860.

If a tree fall in a forest ant there is nobody to hear it is it still a mans fault.

[Quote] What a load of shit. Huge numbers of gay men view women as sexual competition.

Please do not freight us all with your deep psychotic weirdness. It’s not as if straight men “become gay” if they can’t get a girlfriend.

Do you even realize how much of a help that is to homophobes if gayness is purely situational?

I think the word they were looking for is "mothering", not "mankeeping." I don't know why we have to make up words when we already have one that fits the definition... outside of it offending grown men when their wives tell them to stop acting like a child and grow up.

The resident INCEL is in our midst - R79. R83, you’re not fooling anyone.

I don't why you keep pretending that gay men don't fantasize and actively try to turn straight men gay R99. It's been written about multiple times over multiple years on DL alone, and various other internet forums. It's also been referenced in articles. Many gay men have a dog in the race of heterosexuality and women are the direct competition.

R54 A lot of women want that control though, despite being resentful of it.

That’s where the “Karen” comes from. When you meet a woman in public who bosses you around as if she’s talking to her pussy husband or children, it’s because she’s the authority of her household. She might complain about the labor, but she also won’t let go of the reins—control and resentment go hand in hand.

You’re going to tell me you’ve never met a woman complain about how her husband does everything wrong domestically? “He vacuumed the house but he did it wrong!” “He never gets anything right, I’d rather have him do nothing!”

R58 Because a lot of women have no understanding of what makes men a “man”. Their ideas of masculinity are more juvenile than men’s ideas of masculinity. Their mentality of what a man is what a teenage boy thinks a man is. That’s why they end up marrying or dating “children”.

R67 Some women are usually conditioned to believe they are smarter and better than men. That can begin in a household and in school with teachers where “boys are bad” starts.

And that carries over to men who think “she’s smarter than me, I let her do everything and keep my mouth shut so she doesn’t bitch and complain when I fuck up”. And meanwhile these women are just as stupid as the man.

And that plays into R63’s point too. Lesbians and gays can be more successful romantically and financially cause they know how to play gender roles to their strengths and weaknesses to balance each other out.

Then what “makes a man,” R104? What do men always have these proclamations like I want to be a MAN, I feel like a MAN etc etc.

I am friends with a lesbian couple. The feminine one has the job and makes the money and the masculine one is unemployed (working on her passions) but takes care of the house from building fences and maintenance and then they will garden together.

There is a study I once read that even lesbians who share a household with the male make less money than a single or 2-lesbian household.

Gays and lesbians can cherry pick enough roles and duties to balance each other out. Sometimes it’s as uneven as straight couples but that’s usually doom and gloom like straight couples.

It's ridiculous to lump all women or most women into one set of behaviors. Not all women react the same, act the same or want the same things from a partner. Just like with men. People are different. What you see on TV or social media or in the news as a stereotype is not the reality for everyone. Not everyone follows or cares what others do. Not everyone over analyzes things or talks so much.

R107 which member of the lesbian couple sits and games all day while ordering takeout and begging the other one to have sex?

Why should we care?

[quote] [R58] Because a lot of women have no understanding of what makes men a “man”. Their ideas of masculinity are more juvenile than men’s ideas of masculinity

R104 so, according to you, both men and women don't know what makes a man. Interesting.

Oh-oh, here she comes

Watch out, boy, she'll chew you up

Oh-oh, here she comes

She's a man-keeper!

R106 My point was that a lot of these women who complain about men get into relationships with men who are immature, emotionally and financially unavailable and unstable, etc.

The fun guys, the bad boys, the tough guys — all famously desirable and completely unreliable.

They marry these guys or get knocked up by them and then expect them to grow up.

R111 Absolutely. That’s why MAGA is so strong right now—these guys are obsessed with “bringing back manhood,” but half of them would have to be dragged kicking and screaming if a draft ever came around.

Most of them not half! Lol

I used to hear people say that women mistakenly expected to change their men for the better. Usually it was said by other women after a failed relationship.

R86 Doesn’t dawn on him we might be talking about what we see in our brothers or friends or co-workers or everyone surrounding our small population.

Bullshit R113. Women take what they can get. They are harassed and harangued into settling because without straights commingling and reproducing humans would cease to exist. Who do you think is getting blamed for the fertility issues worldwide? It isn't the fun immature guys. It ultimately falls on women and society isn't exactly rich with responsible reasonable men who make good husbands and fathers.

This is what gays don't get and never will. Gay men don't understand that straight men will live their lives in a holding pattern for years, waiting for their dream girl (a hot virgin) to come along and clean up after them and "make them a better man". They don't get that quality men are a minority, and some quality men won't ever settle.

Plenty of women opt out of the whole thing entirely rather than get stuck with a dud and they get criticized for that too. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't and plenty of gay men are tapping their toes on the sidelines, ready to pile on the hate because they salivate for straight cock and are under no expectations.

It's such obvious bad faith to act like straight men are innocent victims.

r108 It is well understood that human discussion is not composed of, nor intended to be composed of, absolutes, but rather is entered into with an unspoken "on the whole" or "by and large" presentation of the situation or idea. When one says something as innocent as, "What a beautiful day it was yesterday," certainly someone could respond with the likes of, "Oh, but from 3:17 AM to 3:21 AM there was an unpleasant wave of humidity which was anything but beautiful, and how could you forget that strong gust of wind at 5:28 PM which blew off several peoples' hats, something which was not beautiful at all? How can you possibly say that yesterday was beautiful, you clod?"; however, this is not the way humans communicate. Yes, you can find all sorts of exceptions to what is presented in people's musings and abstractions on human existence; but due to the fact that neither life nor opportunity is infinite, we save time by communicating in general rules and predominating observations, and leave exceptions and particularities to be examined when there is a particular and express reason to do so.

I can buy that a lot of women DO have to do this - and while some don't mind, it is exhausting to others. But, would the women who don't like it be open to their men getting emotional support elsewhere? If not, then buck up and deal with the mankeeping.

Fine, I’ll make my own sandwich.

R118 This is bullshit because the only difference between gay men and straight men outside of orientation are the conditioning to men or women.

Gay men are not another species from straight men.

We’re NOT a different species. Statistically gay men and lesbian women outperform straight couples in relationship satisfaction and parenting outcomes.

Genders clash.

Funny R122. "Genders clash" was not the vague argument you were making before. You were very clearly bigoted against women and pretending that men who place unfair responsibilities onto their female partners weren't to blame, it was those evil harpies who force them to do it and those poor straight men, how do they cope.

Meanwhile, anyone with a brain knows that straight men make poor partners and women are under immense pressure and outright harassment from the time they hit puberty until menopause to couple up and pop out kids. They're even trying to codify into law punishment for women who don't want to settle for a loser.

Nice try to backpedal though. Smell you!

Gay men and women make good partners because they know if they don't pull their weight their partners can walk away at any time.

Straight men know women don't have the option to walk away as easily and they exploit the hell out of it.

It's a good thing we provide this platform so that the likes of you can tell us how horrible we are.

It is a good thing to remind people their shit doesn't stink and their bigotry won't go unnoticed.

They’re bored with their men but yet run off all iof his friends saying, “You have me, why do you need friends?” Many married men I know have a form of Stockholm Syndrome.

Plus many women just want men around as a sounding board and/or someone to complain about or blame for their unhappiness.

After watching that show Couples Therapy I’m so glad im gay,. Frauen are exhausting.

She admits to having anger issues, and that she has spent years attacking him, and people are wondering why he's detached from her. My mum spent years verbally abusing me and screaming at me, and I was extremely detached from her. Strange how that works.

But it’s all his fault 🙄

Contrary to what most of you seem to think (and want), straight men love being married. They love women and all of their mishegoss. They re-marry soon after a divorce. Think about it, deal with it.

R66 Banita triggered.

R130 trying desperately to start drama after his first attempt flopped. So petty, so sad.

[quote] I don't know if we, as gay people, are qualified to comment on this topic.

Huh? Of course we can comment on this and anything we damn well please.

[quote]They seem to want to eat their cake and have it too.

American Women = I want a man to rescue me, take care of me, pay for rent, car and dinners, entertain me, surprise me with expensive gifts, treat me like a lady and take me on lavish European vacations.

Also

American Women = I want to be treated as an equal, with equal pay, equal job status, equal rights, equal power, and a man who make equal or more than I do. Also I want all of the above as well.

R133 Sign me up for all of that!

R123 Uh, no. That’s your interpretation to my posts which is way off.

R124 False because women initiate divorce. Straight men don’t have a safety net at all so nothing you have to say is valid based on divorce rates and who files for it.

R124 Lesbians and straight couples have higher divorce rates than gay couples. What’s the common denominator there?

Women and gay men are nothing alike.

R129 Statistically, more men today do not want to get married.

I’ve never really known men who come home after work, sit by the fire, and have their wife bring them slippers. That image feels outdated, almost like something out of a 1950s commercial.

When it comes to domestic work, men and women often divide responsibilities differently. Men may not typically be the ones doing the laundry, dishes, or organizing closets, but they often take on the physically demanding or technical chores. For example, you don’t usually see women up on the roof cleaning out gutters or down in the basement repairing a broken boiler.

I saw this dynamic firsthand. Years after my mom’s divorce, her house began to fall apart. Not because she was lazy, but because she didn’t know how to maintain the parts of the house my stepfather used to take care of. The porch stairs broke and stayed broken. Ceiling fans stopped working. The windows became so damaged they wouldn’t open anymore. Without upkeep, the place started looking eerie, like something out of Grey Gardens. Eventually, she had to hire people to do costly renovations, work that had once been done routinely by her husband.

That experience really stuck with me. When people say their husbands “don’t do anything at home,” they’re usually talking about laundry, vacuuming, or cooking, not the quiet, behind-the-scenes work that keeps the house from literally falling apart. Maintenance, repairs, and the “harder” domestic labor are often invisible until they’re neglected—and by then, the consequences are obvious.

R133, yeah, I know the second type very well. Mainly, in fact. But the media does seem to celebrate the first type a WHOLE fucking lot

Neither of my straight male siblings wanted kids. One has been married to a like-minded woman for about 40 years.

The other, much younger, bailed on his first marriage after 6 years of his wife begging to be a mother. Since then he's been longterm engaged, nice ring and all, three times. Breakups were all due to kids.

I'm the gay one. Got a lovely young woman pregnant in my early 20s and ended up married for 7 years. The pregnancy ended in a stillbirth but I was married to my best friend. Tried to make it work. But unlike my brothers I would have welcomed a child.

My father sired 8 children. One in Europe after WWII before my mother, another during a separation and "mid-life crisis".

Make of that what you will.

[quote] [R124] False because women initiate divorce. Straight men don’t have a safety net at all so nothing you have to say is valid based on divorce rates and who files for it.

What safety net do lesbians have R135?

[quote] I’ve never really known men who come home after work, sit by the fire, and have their wife bring them slippers. That image feels outdated, almost like something out of a 1950s commercial.

Yeah, because not all married men are over the age of 80. In 2025, they sit at their computers or TVs and game for hours while their partners bring them food.

Btw, still waiting for R104 to enlighten us all as to what makes a man a man.

Happy wife, happy life!

Even fraus find their hoohas repulsive. Why should we not?