It's Tuesday so tell me about Valerie Harper

I was at an industry dinner party and Valerie was at my table with about eight other people.

She was charming, delightful, and kind.

When dessert came, I said, "I love this pie!" and she burst out laughing.

The dessert wasn't pie and other people at the table weren't sure why I said it. But Valerie's laugh is something I'll never forget.

She was in L’il Abner, on stage and in the movie, more than 10 years prior to MTM. She was in Wild Cat, on B’way, which starred Lucille Ball. The girl (VH, that is) paid her dues.

R2- Lucy was offered the role of MYM’s cranky neighbor on the MTM show but Fary talked her out of it.

Why was she cast as Mary's unattractive, fat friend? In reality she was more attractive than Mary and not fat at the start of the show just average.

Was I that fat at the end of the show?

I didn’t mind the loss of Joe. He was becoming a jerk. But I did mind the loss of the original apartment set.

I am enjoying the mid 70s fashion and decor on Rhoda. Lots of frumpiness.

Joe was hot! His ex wife was played by Joan Van Ark.

I think the general consensus among fans and TV critics is that the producers and writers just didn't know what to do with this show. She was spun-off back to her home in Manhattan to be a single woman navigating life in NYC in the 70s, like Mary was navigating life as a single woman in Minneapolis. The writers should have left it as this.

Instead, she met someone, fell in love and got married within two months. That whole storyline was funny, and it brought in the ratings that every other new show envied that season. But the the show really went nowhere - it was never supposed to be about a married couple, and the writers later admitted they didn't know how to write for 'a married sitcom couple'. They were hired to write for a single woman in her 30s in NYC.

So by the third season, they made her single again, but there were more major shifts that season (Joe was gone, her 'Mom and Pop' were gone that season, new apartment, etc.). It proved too many changes for the audience. I happened to like the last three seasons more than the first two, but many viewers wanted to still see her married.

I knew a guy that was the stage manager for her show "Looped", before she got ill, and he adored her. Couldn't say enough positive things about her and working with/for her.

R8- I agree. I always thought poor man's James Caan was hotter than rich man's David Groh.

The whole idea for spinning off "Rhoda" was to have her get married quickly. The producers knew it would be the highest rated sitcom episode up to that time (and it was). But then the problem was they didn't know what to do with the show after that.

The one really great idea they had was to give Rhoda a sibling who was even more like she was on "The MTM Show" than she herself was, and Julie Kavner was hilarious as Brenda. The producers of "Frasier" repeated the same idea with the Niles character when that show was spun off of "Cheers," and it also worked brilliantly the second time.

She was a strong dancer. Arriving in NYC she immediately got into Radio City's corps de ballet.

Rhoda gets an unfair rap as a spin-off that didn’t quite work. Yes, it had its flaws — Joe was miscast from the start, Rhoda’s circle of friends never really gelled, and by the end, she didn’t have much of a storyline — but there was still a lot to enjoy.

Julie Kavner was a great discovery as Brenda, and her chemistry with Valerie Harper and Nancy Walker was fabulous. The dynamic between the three Morgenstern women was easily the show's strongest asset.

I recently rewatched the episode where Brenda takes a class to overcome shyness. The instructor tells her to act like the boldest person she knows — and without missing a beat, she hilariously adopts all of her mother's mannerisms.

I also loved the on-location shots of Rhoda and Brenda all over NYC in the opening sequences of the later seasons. You never see that kind of slice-of-life credit sequence anymore. It made the show feel grounded in a real place and time.

I would imagine they married Rhoda to Joe as there would have been too much similarity between the show with MTM's if she stayed a single career woman in the big city. As it was, Rhoda as a character had to 'straighten up' a bit, as she was now the show's lead and not a supporting character as she was on MTM.

I know people who worked with her on Rhoda and Valerie and no one has anything even remotely negative to say. She would run into crew members years after they worked together and could still remember names and relationships.

As for Rhoda, it was a disaster. She weirdly took on the MTM role and Julie Kavner became Rhoda. And Joe was just not Rhoda's type, aside from the fact that he was colossally unfunny. Yet they were intent on casting hunks and Valerie had zero chemistry with Groh.

[quote]And Joe was just not Rhoda's type, aside from the fact that he was colossally unfunny. Yet they were intent on casting hunks and Valerie had zero chemistry with Groh.

This.

Julie and Valerie remained close after Rhoda wrapped. It's been rumored that Julie helped pay for Valerie's treatments when she was sick.

Val was apparently Rosie O'Donnell's first guest on the first Rosie show after 9/11.

[quote]It's been rumored that Julie helped pay for Valerie's treatments when she was sick.

Sisters stick together.

I didn't know Harper was born in Saskatchewan and iwasn't even Jewish! Nancy Walker wasn't Jewish either. Kinda blew my mind.

R20 I guess The Simpsons money came in handy.

One of the other dumb things they did with Rhoda was they changed the great theme song after a few seasons.

Rhoda opening credits, season one:

Opening credits, season two:

Opening credits, season three:

Opening credits, season four:

Opening credits, season five:

Season one's opening feels like an anthem

I remember reading the reason Leachman was spun-off into her own sitcom was because they had spun-off Harper, and Leachman believed she deserved the same. Harper was now the 'star' of her own sitcom, and Leachman, an Oscar-winning actress, was still a supporting character to MTM.

The writers didn't feel her character was strong enough as a lead in a sitcom ( "Phyllis' played better as a second banana), but she threatened to leave the series and the network if a show was not created for her in the following season. They didn't want her leaving the network, so they took a chance on spinning her off (she was now happy - she was a sitcom star, getting a star's salary). They tried to make her into a 'leading character' but she didn't catch on with audiences after two seasons and two cast changes. The producers were right - 'Phyllis' was not a leading lady to have stories written around week after week.

When her show was canceled in March, 1977, the network had the idea of sending her to 'Rhoda', and help that series rebound after a disastrous third season. A script was prepared for the third or fourth episode in that fourth season, in which Leachman would be a guest star. The premise was Phyllis is visiting Manhattan, but gets stuck at the airport over the weekend and asks to stay in Rhoda's apartment (I believe the script was titled, "Knock, Knock! It's Your Old Friend Phyllis!"). If ratings were a hit, the writers were going to make her a series regular by 'November sweeps' a few months later - somehow, Phyllis was to relocate to Manhattan and rent an apartment in Rhoda and Brenda's building.

The plan fell through - it was rumored that Leachman supposedly wanted to keep her 'leading actress salary' even though she was going to be a costar on the show, and CBS wouldn't agree (can't blame them). The 'Knock, Knock!' episode was scrapped, as well. (I believe when the plan fell through, Leachman said it was because she was 'done' with the character and wanted to move on.)

She was no Mary.

I liked Brenda and Nick better.

Honestly she should have ended up with the lounge singer. Underneath he was a nice guy and he seemed nuts about her.

Didn't Valerie win the Emmy for leading actress in a comedy series? I wonder if that makes her one of the few (or perhaps only) performer to ever win the Emmy for supporting and then lead for the same character?

How was Anne Meara? She was brought on as a friend to Rhoda but she didn’t last long.

Joe was a real ass in the episode when Mary visits.

[quote]I didn't know Harper was born in Saskatchewan and iwasn't even Jewish! Nancy Walker wasn't Jewish either. Kinda blew my mind.

Her mother was from Saskatchewan. Her father was a traveling salesman, who met her mother while in Canada, married her, and brought her back to the US.

Harper was born in New York, but due to her father's job, the family moved constantly around the country (Massachusetts, New Jersey, Michigan, California, Oregon, etc.)

R4 This again?

I'm always surprised Rhoda is still playing in reruns.

The fact is, they shouldn't have created spinoff shows for the Rhoda and Phyllis characters. But I suppose at least Rhoda made Kavner's career happen.

I will cut any bitch who says Phyllis was a better show than Lou Grant. As noted above, Phyllis as a character couldn't carry the lead. Lou Grant may not have been a comedy as some would have expected, but it was well made. And Nancy Marchand was delightful as Mrs. Pynchon. She got four fucking Emmys out of it, and it was a wonderful contrast to her later turn as Livia Soprano.

I thought Nancy Marchand gave Sada Thompson fierce competition in the Miss Creep competition.

Miss Creep? What does that mean?

R34 here. I just asked Siri that question and it gave me one answer — Ed Asner.

How did Rhoda have five seasons, when the first show was September 9, 1974 and the last one was December 9, 1978?

Because it was canceled in the middle of its fifth season.

[quote]Joe was a real ass in the episode when Mary visits.

Can you blame him?

He had planned a three-day getaway for him and Rhoda in Cape Cod.

They both worked a lot, so that was the first time in a long while when they had the same days off.

Not to mention, they almost didn't get to go, because that was his son's weekend with him, so he had to make a deal with his ex-wife to take him.

Then Mary unexpectedly shows up when they're about to walk out the door.

On top of that, Rhoda tells him that she'd rather spend the weekend with Mary, because she hardly gets to see her anymore.

R44 the TV season is usually September-May, like the schoolyear.

RHODA typically had 24 episodes that aired September-March, except for Season 4 when they aired October-April.

Season 5 began airing in September 1978 but then was canceled midway through after 13 episodes had aired.

The ratings must have dropped pretty drastically if a fifth season was ordered, then cancelled midway through.

R48, in its fifth season, it was in the same time slot as CHiPs. No one can compete with hot 1970s cop meat.

Amazing it lasted as long as it did.

At the time, there was a rumor going around (which CBS got wind of) that the other two networks were offering Harper her own sitcom, and she was interested. They knew she was a 'star' for the 70s. Her contract with MTM was coming up, and that's probably how this got started. CSB didn't want to lose Harper, so they offered her 'Rhoda' - something they were considering since the second season, but the rumors that she was talking with ABC and NBC sped up the project.

However, Harper said she laughed off the rumors, as she heard from her manager at the time that the networks did want to 'talk to her' before she re-signed with MTM, but she had no interest in leaving the show. No offers were really made, except offers to have lunch with her and try to woo her to their network somehow. She didn't bother - she loved her work on TMTMS and had no intention of leaving - not even for her own show.

But even with Harper clearing the air, by that time (Season 3 of MTM) CBS had convinced themselves it was time for Harper to have her spin-off. She said she was terrified to leave, and spoke to MTM who said this was a great opportunity for her as an actress, and if the show failed - she would always be welcomed back to TMTMS. She still wasn't convinced she should leave - so she had dinner with veteran actress Nancy Walker who would co-star as her mother on the spin-off (Walker was a busy actress back then, with 'McMillan and Wife' and her successful 'Bounty' commercials, so she really didn't need 'Rhoda', too). Harper said after she confided in Walker on how much money CBS offered her, Walker reached over the table, held her by the hand and talked her into it. She told Harper it was 'an incredible offer' for someone who's been on television for only three years, that if she said 'no' she would be telling all three networks that she didn't have confidence in herself to be a lead actress in a sitcom and therefore will never star in her own show. "Listen to me, and take the offer", said Walker (who Harper regarded as 'a mother figure' to her in Hollywood). So Harper said yes...the rest is history.

BTW, when Season 4 was wrapping, Harper let CBS know that she would be finished with Season 5. She was playing the character for a decade, and she wanted out (she wanted to move on to feature films, and get away from television). So CBS knew that Season 5 would be the last, and started focusing on 'Brenda', hoping to spin her off into her own show for 1979-80, which is why 'Brenda's wedding' was happening so fast (it was planned for February 1979 sweeps). Harper may have been done with 'Rhoda', but CBS hoped audiences were not done with Julie Kavner's "Brenda". (There was talk of moving Brenda, Benny and Ida to CT to start the series, so I guess Ida and Martin would be divorced by the end of 'Rhoda').

But in Season Five, CBS moved 'Rhoda' from Sunday nights to Saturday nights, against 'CHiPs', and the ratings dropped to their lowest levels. They filmed 13 episodes (the last being 'Brenda Runs Away') but CBS only aired 9, before canceling the show - and plans for Brenda's spin-off - in December, 1978. At the time, the show was on 'Holiday break' (from Thanksgiving - New Year's) when Harper got the call from CBS saying not to come back in January (everyone still got paid for the full season). She said she was ecstatic - the best Christmas gift she ever got as she was so tired of playing 'Rhoda'.

But wait - there's more ! 2.5 years after it was canceled, they tried a 'Carlton Your Doorman' spin-off in the form of an animated series during prime time. They aired the pilot in the Spring of 1981, and it didn't go further.

They had so many more interesting choices for Rhoda's boyfriends later on, Rene Aubejonois, Ron Silver, although thankfully not Richard Masur, who CBS kept foisting on us. Even Steve Franken on MTM showed sparks with Valerie. If we could have seen her actually dating, the brass could have been better about who they paired her with. The Rhoda/Joe relationship was doomed primarily because she somewhat shames him into marriage because she didn't want to live together. Coupled with Joe's son who hated Rhoda and you knew it couldn't last. Ironically, Harpers real life husband, Richard Schaal also never had any onscreen chemistry with Harper.

R48 the ratings plummeted when they got rid of Joe in Season 3.

SEASON 1: #6

SEASON 2: #7

SEASON 3: #33

SEASON 4: #21

SEASON 5: #95

[quote] Nancy Walker wasn't Jewish either.

And even more surprising: she had a husband.

Ann Meara was probably the worst casting choice they could've made. She came across as so unlikeable, angry, and so full of hate for the opposite sex. I think that's why the ratings dropped in season 3. Thankfully, they wrote her off when the show came back in January 1976 for the second half - and never explained her absence, and never mentioned 'Sally' again. She went from 'Rhoda's new best friend' in September to 'no one at all' in January.

The last few times I watched Rhoda I found it very mean, especially to Ida.

Her Television Academy interviews are a delight. She talks about how Rhoda was the last character to be cast, she went in on a Friday having worked out all her physical business (her work in Second City helped), and by the time she got home Richard Schaal told her she'd gotten the job. She started that Monday as the least known member of the cast and within a few episodes she was indelible.

As posters above have said, no one has a bad word about her.

[quote]On top of that, Rhoda tells him that she'd rather spend the weekend with Mary, because she hardly gets to see her anymore.

R46 She actually tells him, "I see you all the time and I never get to see Mary."

[quote]How was Anne Meara? She was brought on as a friend to Rhoda but she didn’t last long.

Excuse me!!! How can you have possibly not mentioned OUR GODDESS?

Nancy Walker changed a lot from her younger days at MGM. She no longer had the big jaw and her face was prettier when she was older. Did she go under the knife? (She didn't seem quite as butch, later, either.)

(With June Allyson and Gloria De Haven in Best Foot Forward, 1943.)

Vance and David White were offered to be regular co-stars on the series after that episode. White wanted to take the offer (he had been missing from TV since 'Bewitched ended in 1972) but Vance said no (she had already been diagnosed with cancer at that point). Like other characters on the show, those two 'new neighbors' were never mentioned ever again.

It's nice someone finally gave Vivian Vance a part (albeit too late) other than Lucy.

[quote] [R4] This again?

R38 Thank you for confirming that R4’s question had been discussed in a previous Rhoda/Valerie Harper thread. I thought so, too, and I’m always delighted when I recognize repetition on DL, because it means I don’t have dementia.

Even MAD Magazine played it as "Rodent" being more attractive.

Maybe Rhoda was more attractive to gay men (?), but the straight guys I knew were way more into Mary Tyler Moore.

[quote]Why was she cast as Mary's unattractive, fat friend? In reality she was more attractive than Mary and not fat at the start of the show just average.

Rhoda is supposed to be an ex-fattie.

She mentions that she turned to food for comfort growing up and thus had a bad puberty, but she still was self-conscious about her looks despite the weight loss.

R65, I think that's very true.

[quote]I didn't know Harper was born in Saskatchewan and wasn't even Jewish!

I believed the hype back when she was on Valerie, about how she was difficult, and hard to work with, But I guess the network spread some of that around. I think she sued them and won,

(period)

[quote]Maybe Rhoda was more attractive to gay men (?), but the straight guys I knew were way more into Mary Tyler Moore.

I posted this back in 2019 in another "Rhoda" thread:

WILL: So, ask him.

GRACE: No, no. No. That's not the way it's supposed to happen. I want him to ask me.

WILL: Grace, in the real world, women ask men all the time. Rhoda asked Joe.

GRACE: No, she didn't.

WILL: Yes, she did. She kept waiting for him to pop the question, and when he finally did, it was, "Do you wanna live together?" So she looked him right in the eye and said, [IMITATING RHODA] "Ok, Joe. I wanna be married."

GRACE: Wow. You will use any excuse to do a Rhoda impression.

WILL: Grace, you love him. You wanna marry him. So ask him.

GRACE: You're right. I should. I will! I'm gonna ask him. I mean, it makes total sense. I was the one who was gonna end up paying for the ring anyway. Oh, my God! This is so exciting!

WILL: I know! [AS RHODA] I gotta call my sister Brenda and tell her the news.

R64 MAD Magazine was ruthless. I think it was the Mary Tailor Made Show and my personal favorite, Lou Grouch.

I have never heard a bad word about Valerie from my industry friends. The whole “Valerie” fiasco boiled down to a combination of factors and she was unfairly blamed for a lot of it.

As far as I know MAD magazine writers were mostly straight. They preferred Rhoda. My dad and brothers preferred Rhoda. Mary came across as the uptight WASP who reeked of hairspray, probably unwilling to give blowjobs.

R72, like the Suzanne Somers fiasco with Three's Company, her husband Tony was probably greatly responsible for the problems.

And the Cindy Williams fiasco with Laverne & Shirley

Harper had perfect comic timing. Her line delivery never fails. In watching her on MTM and Rhoda, I'm always amazed at how really, really talented she was.

Agree with R4 that it's ironic she was cast as the dumpy frumpy friend on MTM. She was much prettier than MTM. The beauty contest episode on MTM finally gave Rhoda her just recognition as a lovely woman.

By the end of the series, both Valerie and Julie became glammed up. Valerie had lost a lot of weight and got her hair permed while they started outfitting Brenda in more upscale wardrobe and coiffed Julie’s hair more stylish.

They were no longer the city bohemian girls next door.

I thought his name was Richard, aka DICK r74.

I admit to being disappointed when I found out they were a couple.

Back in the 1970's there was some kind of feminist (women's lib?) variety special on CBS that was "the TV first show produced by women" with skits and songs. Valerie was the star (to me at least) and I believe Brenda Vaccaro was involved.

R77 They actually started with Julie Kavner early on. Between the first episode of Rhoda (it’s not clear to me if that was a pilot or if CBS OK’ed the show without one) and the next few episodes, Julie’s eyebrows were trimmed considerably, and it seemed that she lost some weight. I agree that there was continued glamorizing throughout the run of the series.

I liked Rhoda best on The Mary Tyler Moore Show, I never really watched Rhoda

I saw Harper on Broadway in Looped playing Tallulah Bankhead she was tremendous, and the play was hysterically funny

r78 Richard was husband #1, Tony #2

Richard Schaal had big fuckin Chicago dick energy. Valerie probably needed her dance training to keep up with him in bed.

Lucky Val.

Tony who?

Here's the Valerie Wikipedia article which has all sorts of info one might be curious about.

Richard Schaal seemed to be one of those actors in lots of shows.....someone somewhere tried many times to make him happen but it never quite ignited.

He was the James Wolk of his day, I suppose.

R54, I forgot what book it was, but I remembered reading someone cattily observe that Walker was the ultimate fag hag during her early years. If she saw a gay guy, she'd try to bed him.

Since we're talking about Stern, I wanted to post this video of Valerie and Stuttering John which starts about 6:30. She is so sweet and empathetic that Stuttering John doesn't seem to know how to react. They start talking about stuttering and she commends him for bringing this to the public and facing it head on. John asks for a hug afterwards and seems genuinely charmed.

BTW, Stern and Valerie had some type of pact where they shared a secret word that only they would know, ala Houdini and if someone guessed it, it would have been because she told them in her afterlife.

R85, I remember him as Barbara Feldon's artist boyfriend in the TV movie LET'S SWITCH. Barbara Eden was the other female lead with smelly Pat Harrington as her husband.

[quote] They tried to make her into a 'leading character' but she didn't catch on with audiences after two seasons and two cast changes.

Actually, the first season of "Phyllis" in 1975-6 highly successful, and the show was #6 in the Nielsen ratings for all television shows that year. They make reference to its success in Orson Welles's voiceover in "network," and there an installment of the original "Tales of the City" where Brian goes into a bar in san Francisco and everyone is gathered there to watch an episode of "Phyllis."

The first episode was a huge success in particular, because it was unimaginable to most people that Phyllis could sruvive on her own without Lars's money after he died, and the network had already spilled this would be the premise.

The show did run into bad luck. First the fine comic actress Barbara Colby, who played Phyllis's boss, was randomly murdered by a drive-by shooter in Los Angeles , and had to be replaced by Liz Torres, who wasn't nearly as funny. Then when things weren't working, they changed Phyllis's job for the second season and added many people for the supporting cast. Audiences started to respond really well to Phyllis's interactions the second season with Mother Dexter, played by the hilarious Judith Lowry, but then midway through the second season lowry died. So then they decided to give up because they couldn;t figure out any way to save the ratings.

It had first-rate writing on the show quite often though, and many people on Datalounge will speak very fondly of the famous episode "Phyllis and the Little People" with Billy Barty as the father of Bess's new boyfriend. It has one of the funniest ever scenes from 70s sitcoms when Phyllis's dopey workmate Leo asks her why she's depressed, and she replies, "Bess wants to marry a boy whose parents are midgets," and Leo responds, "Has she found one yet?" (The dialogue continues further from there and gets crazier and crazier.)

Phyllis was more of a farce and the character was like Lucy in that everything she did backfired. It also had the very great luck of having the Charles brothers doing the writing for many episodes.

We've discussed so many others, I thought it'd be nice to acknowledge Harold Gould, who played Rhoda's dad. A good actor and very handsome man:

Harold Gould was one of the oldest hottest daddy types on TV in the 1970s. He did a memorable scene as a mob boss by a swimming pool, on Hawaii 5-0, in a speedo. He kept himself in great shape. And he was a talented TV actor. Did everything.

Maybe he was younger than he played? Too lazy too look it up.

For me, the very best part of PHYLLIS was that opening theme, The panorama of unflattering facial expressions is a little piece of genius. I need to see it again.

Nancy Walker was in her 40s playing Ida Morgenstern. She looked 70. And died years later at the age of 69. She was like Thelma Ritter's twin - born at 50.

I always found MTM too prissy. Rhoda was more fun.

I found Walker's odd looking forehead and heavily triagular, pronounced widow's peak to be somewhat of a visual distraction at times.

When I smoked weed, probably.

I love the "Ida the Elf" episode.

[quote] For me, the very best part of PHYLLIS was that opening theme, The panorama of unflattering facial expressions is a little piece of genius. I need to see it again.

R92 Particularly because those shots of Phyllis were interposed with a line of dapper chorus boys singing a cross between “Mame” and “Hello Dolly.” The first time I saw that opening in 1975, I thought it was the gayest TV show opening I’d ever seen.

For some odd reason, back on the mid 70's, Allen Carr hired Nancy to direct the DL Camp Classic Can't Stop the Music. I saw some interview with Valerie Perrine, (not that long ago), and she discussed how Walker was so useless as a director, Perrine had her banned from directing any scenes she was in. She said all Walker did most afternoons was stay in her dressing room and watch tv soap operas.

Glad someone else loves it and sees it r96

R89 A major reason why the first season of 'Phyllis' was so successful was because it aired right after the second season of 'Rhoda' on Monday nights, and right before 'All In The Family' (which moved to Mondays at 9 pm from their Saturday at 8 pm slot) and 'Maude' (which moved to Mondays at 9:30 from its Tuesdays at 9:30 spot). CBS created quite the 'comedy block ' for those two hours , aimed at women viewers while ABC oared the traditional 'men's programming' (football in the fall, baseball in the spring). CBS ended the night at 10 pm with 'Medical Center' starring hunky Chad Everett. "Rhoda", "Phylllis", "AITF" and "Maude" all made it into the Top 10 for the season - it was a successful move from CBS.

The following season, 'Rhoda' tumbled in the ratings and brought down 'Phyllis' with it, so the network moved those two to Sunday nights at 8 pm / 8:30 pm. Once they moved to Sundays, the ratings for 'Rhoda' improved, but 'Phyllis' never did, continuing it's drop in the ratings. In March, 1977 CBS renewed 'Rhoda' for a fourth season, but canceled 'Phyllis' which aired its last series episode days before Leachman was on 'The Mary Tyler Moore Show' for that series last episode.

Nancy Walker was best friends with Montgomery Clift.

She was born in 1922 (the same year as Judy Garland, who died in 1969 at 47. She was one month older than Judy.) So when she was on Rhoda, she couldn't have been in her 40s. Rhoda ran from 1974 to 1978, so Walker was 52-56 on the show.

Replying to R93^

For those of you who've never seen it before, here are both the famous intro and outro for "Phyllis." One thing that really helps make it funny is how fiercely Cloris Leachman commits to the character in the shots of her wandering around San Francisco.

The Emmys were on ABC and broadcast from the then new Shubert Theater in Century City. One of my friend's brothers was an usher there. He saw Valerie Harper in her seat and completely broke protocol by running up to her before the show began and saying '"Miss Harper, I'm a huge fan of yours and I hope you win the Emmy". Harper pinched him on the cheek and said "You little honey". He could have been fired but he said it would have been worth it for a memory he'd keep forever.

Remember when Norman Fell played a doctor who wanted to date married Ida Morgenstern? Oy vey!

R104- Norman Fell's character on Three's Company could never or rarely get it up for his Caftan wearing wife. He seems queer to me now and probably had the hots for Jack Trapper inspite of his homophobic remarks towards him.

[quote]Particularly because those shots of Phyllis were interposed with a line of dapper chorus boys singing a cross between “Mame” and “Hello Dolly.”

It's in that weird tint because the original showed them in blackface.

Nancy '55

I loved Rhoda on MTM and I loved her own show at first, but as much as I didn't want to I ended up siding with Joe in a lot of their arguments because Rhoda's insecurities got OLD. But on the other hand she was often kind of smug and know-it-all with Brenda because she'd lost weight (not that she'd had much to lose) and gotten a man. It was kind of a weird dichotomy.

And she lost SO much more weight during the run of the show, in the later seasons she was almost skeletal. Brenda also lost a lot of weight.

This show's whole viewpoint seemed to be about losing weight being something you had to do to be happy, but even when you did you weren't necessarily going to be happy.

I also could not stand Ida. Nasty little troll.

It's next Tuesday, OP, so it's a good time to tell you that Val thought you were a cunt.

"Worse than Leachman," she'd say.

Rhoda is such an odd choice of name for a character, or living person. I have never known one IRL, although I did come across a Reba. It means "from Rhodes". Was there any explanation as to why the character was called Rhoda?

There is another infamous Rhoda making it even stranger. The Bad Seed Rhoda.

There's Rhoda Dendron.

I rewatched the first two episodes last night because of this thread.

It was clear the writers didn't really have a handle on Rhoda until Valerie handed it to them with her performance. Episode 2 (not coincidentally, written by a woman) played to Valerie's characterization.

I love Nancy but it saddened me to hear that she was a bitch to Estelle Getty on the Bounty Commercials

RHODA held the rare distinction of being the only show to have the same theme song for five seasons played a different way each season.

Not a lot of her dancing out there.

[quote]RHODA held the rare distinction of being the only show to have the same theme song for five seasons played a different way each season.

I beg your fucking pardon?

ALICE theme didn't change every season.

[quote]RHODA held the rare distinction of being the only show to have the same theme song for five seasons played a different way each season.

What about THE COSBY SHOW's 8 seasons?

The theme song was played in a different musical style each season, with an accompanying dance.

One year it was jazz, one year it was calypso, one year it was hip hop, and so on.

[quote] ALICE theme didn't change every season.

Boppity bop!

Bless your heart, r118. I guess you weren’t around for the great Datalounge breakdown of every variation Linda Lavin did for the theme song and end credits every season

R34. Allison Janney as C.J. Craig.

R121 Neither was I!

Kelsey Grammer's 'Frasier Crane' was nominated twice (1988, 1990) as "Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series" for CHEERS, and won four times (1994, 1995, 1998, 2004) as "Lead Actor in a Comedy Series" for FRASIER.

Interestingly, in 1992, he was also nominated as "Lead Actor in a Comedy Series" for guest-starring as 'Frasier' on an episode of WINGS, which many people don't know existed in the same universe as CHEERS although it was not a direct spinoff.

That was a weird year when the Emmys inexplicably got rid of the "Guest Actor/Actress" categories, so people who guested on shows were nominated in the "Lead/Supporting" categories.

Also in 1992, the following actors were nominated in the regular categories for their guest-starring roles:

- Tyne Daly as "Lead Actress in a Comedy Series" for WINGS

- Harvey Fierstein as "Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series" for CHEERS

- Jay Thomas as "Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series" for MURPHY BROWN

- Frances Sternhagen as "Supporting Actress in a Comedy Series" for CHEERS

- Christopher Lloyd as "Lead Actor in a Drama Series" for ROAD TO AVONLEA (he actually won)

- Harrison Page as "Lead Actor in a Drama Series" for QUANTUM LEAP

- Kirk Douglas as "Lead Actor in a Drama Series" for TALES FROM THE CRYPT

- Shirley Knight as "Lead Actress in a Drama Series" for LAW & ORDER

- Kate Nelligan as "Lead Actress in a Drama Series" for ROAD TO AVONLEA

- Jimmy Smitas as "Supporting Actor in a Drama Series" for L.A. LAW (he had departed as a series regular in 1991)

- Richard Kiley as "Supporting Actor in a Drama Series" for THE RAY BRADBURY THEATER

- Valerie Mahaffrey as "Supporting Actress in a Drama Series" for NORTHERN EXPOSURE

- Barbara Barrie as "Supporting Actress in a Drama Series" for LAW & ORDER

[quote] I rewatched the first two episodes last night because of this thread. It was clear the writers didn't really have a handle on Rhoda until Valerie handed it to them with her performance. Episode 2 (not coincidentally, written by a woman) played to Valerie's characterization.

R113 If you’re referring to the MTM Show, it’s worth noting that the second-aired episode was not the originally-intended second episode.

Rhoda’s meanness did not play well with the audience that previewed the first version of the first episode. The writers then added Bess referring to Rhoda as “Aunt Rhoda” to try to make Rhoda more likable.

Then, they switched a later episode for airing as episode 2 in which Rhoda had been written as more likable. That’s not to say that Valerie wasn’t brilliant playing Rhoda, but the writers did help her make Rhoda more likable so that her friendship with Mary would make more sense to viewers.

How was the reunion movie, “Mary & Rhoda”? I’ve actually never seen it — the night it originally aired, I had just moved to New York from Texas and had a small TV that could only pick up one station clearly (and static on all the rest).

[quote]How was the reunion movie, “Mary & Rhoda”?

Like the Frasier revival, it's best not discussed in polite company and certainly isn't part of the canon.

I remember that I watched it, r126. It was...nice.

When MTM guest stars in Rhoda S2, at least 3 characters comment that she has put on weight. I didn't understand that. Mary was wearing fitted white pants and looked curvier than usual but was in no way overweight. Was there some crossover plot point front the MTM show?

Three characters tell her she's put on weight, r129??? How rude.

I thunk you're lying about your location, r117. You are clearly in Hell!

I served her at a private semi-star studded fundraiser at a big theater producer's River House apartment and she literally was Rhoda Morgenstern. She was charming and funny and very down to earth with everybody. I heard her re-introduce herself to a less famous actor who didn't recall working with her years earlier and she was very sweet about it.

I loved Valerie.

100s of channels and not one has rerun any MTM shows for decades.

I love that early episode where she brings her date to Mary’s party. Mr. and Mrs. Armand Lynton.

R133, it is odd, isn't it? One of the most popular and Emmy-awarded shows in TV history but yet it's basically disappeared. I think MeTV still includes the Christmas episodes in its annual "Very Merry MeTV" (or whatever they call it) lineup every year during the holidays but that's about it.

[quote]How was the reunion movie, “Mary & Rhoda”?

I actually watched it sometime in the last couple years - probably inspired by a thread here on Datalounge. It's...not great. I thought Harper was the best thing about it. She did a good job recapturing the character of Rhoda despite the mediocre writing and plot. MTM doesn't quite get there but aside from Harper she doesn't have a good supporting cast to play off of. It's mostly disappointing they couldn't come up with a better story to reunite such beloved characters. Why they didn't involve any of the original writers is a mystery but maybe they understood that the characters were best left in the past.

R133 I had read somewhere that the whole MTM Productions catalog - 'The Mary Tyler Moore Show', 'Rhoda', 'Phyllis', 'Taxi' - had been pulled from distribution back in the mid-late 2010s, for some 'ownership' legal reasons. I can't recall why, but all the shows were shelved. I wonder if this has anything to do with her passing in January 2017 ? Maybe she had ownership of all of MTM and it hasn't been settled yet ?

Taxi reruns every night on the Catchy Comedy network. Apparently The Mary Tyler Moore Show airs on Saturday nights along with the classic 70s lineup of All In The Family, MASH, The Bob Newhart Show, and Carol Burnett.

One of those rerun channels shows or used to show Rhoda but since Phyllis only went 2 seasons it doesn't get repeated much. I don't think it even made it to DVD like Mary Tyler Moore Show and Rhoda did.

[quote]I saw Harper on Broadway in Looped playing Tallulah Bankhead she was tremendous, and the play was hysterically funny

Valerie Harper was a fucking riot as Tallulah Bankhead, she should've won the Tony.

[quote]She said all Walker did most afternoons was stay in her dressing room and watch tv soap operas.

This makes her an honorary Datalounger.

Until about a year ago, Catchy Comedy ran the MTM Show weekdays.

MTM was the best. Rhoda and The Jeffersons were perhaps the best and most successful spinoffs from original shows.

Lou Grant was nothing like MTM. It was a serious show, so apart from the character I question whether it was a true spinoff.

r110 Julie Newmar played Rhoda, the Robot in the short-lived sitcom, "My Living Doll."

r107 failed to mention that the other person in that video is none other than Bob Fosse.

What exactly happened with the "Valerie" sitcom? It was quite a mess.

Rhoda is a Sally. Mary is a Phyllis. And Phyllis is -- ?

[quote]Lou Grant was nothing like MTM. It was a serious show, so apart from the character I question whether it was a true spinoff.

“Lou Grant” is also a show that seemed to completely drop out of existence. Was it ever in syndication? I don’t think I’ve ever seen or heard of it since its original network run ended decades ago.

Such a small world, Valerie was in the chorus of "Wildcat" and then his awarded her first Emmy by Lucy.

R139 that was the year Viola Davis won for FENCES.

The other nominees were Linda Lavin in COLLECTED STORIES, Laura Linney in TIME STANDS STILL, and Jan Maxwell in THE ROYAL FAMILY.

R145 long story short. Valerie was mildly upset that a show with her name in the title began to focus more on Jason Bateman's character than her own. Miller-Boyet was famous for retooling shows - see the later example of Family Matters which quickly became the Urkel show in all but a title change - to cling to whatever pulls in viewers. Mix in that Valerie and her hubby held out for more money and missed the opening episode of their season but eventually settled and returned to work - only to be dismissed like a episode or two later. Harpers character was killed off screen in a car crash but Bateman later swore they killed her in a house fire. Now they actually did do a house fire episode that season but Val was already dead. The fire always bugged me because the next week the house looked exactly as it did before the fire and it was never mentioned again.

Thank you, r150. They really must've hated Valerie to never mention her again on the show.

It was basically the age-old story of a supporting actor becoming the breakout star of the show and having the show change to focus on that actor and eclipsing the actor who was originally supposed to be the star. Henry Winkler on Happy Days, Michael J. Fox on Family Ties and Jackee on 227 being a few of many examples.

Harper was in Seasons 1 & 2 of VALERIE, which after her departure was retitled VALERIE'S FAMILY: THE HOGANS for Season 3, before settling for THE HOGAN FAMILY for Seasons 4-6.

"Valerie" was supposed to be about the trials and tribulations of a modern soccer mom juggling three kids (teenage son and twin boys) and a job (she worked for an auction house) while her husband was regularly absent (he was an airline pilot).

But as R150 noted, Jason Bateman became the breakout star and heartthrob, so the powers that be wanted to focus the storylines on him to draw younger viewers, which did not go over well with Harper.

And there were "twin brothers" who looked nothing alike, one was white and one was clearly Latino.

Jason Bateman was great casting. He really did look like he could've been the biological son of Valerie Harper and Josh Taylor. The other two boys looked like Valerie and Josh purchased them from a Gypsy wagon and took them home.

Josh Taylor was simultaneously on VALERIE/HOGAN FAMILY while also on the soap DAYS OF OUR LIVES.

Afterward, he went on to play Dylan's father on BEVERLY HILLS, 90210 and also did a season or two of THE YOUNG AND THE RESTLESS.

[quote]It was basically the age-old story of a supporting actor becoming the breakout star of the show and having the show change to focus on that actor and eclipsing the actor who was originally supposed to be the star.

It's a different case with Jason because he already had his own NBC show that was mildly successful and which he got a lot of press from. as well as appearing on Silver Spoons. He was well known when Valerie started, so she shouldn't have been too surprised that the showrunners wanted to pull focus on him.

One thing I remember about the first two seasons of Valerie was how the husband never seemed to be there. They always had him off on some trip. Once Sandy Duncan got on board, you saw the actor much more frequently.

I remember the actors playing the parents on Family Ties were not happy that Michael J Fox became the star but I don't think the show would have lasted as long as it did without him, because the family would have been boring otherwise. Everyone played off Fox and that's where the laughs came from.

I never watched The Hogan Family or its previous incarnations but I do remember the fuss about Valerie being fired. It seems unfair to give someone a show with their name in the title and then change the focus to one of the kids. Bateman should probably have been given his own show, but then I don't know how good Valerie or the scripts were so maybe they needed him, the same way that Family Ties needed Fox.

It just seems weird that she was fired from her titled show to make way for a teenager.

It's all about the money and the ratings. I don't even remember Suzanne Summer and Patrick Duffy being on Step by Step. It was all about the kids as far as the kid audience was concerned.

*Somers

If your library is affiliated with the Hoopla app, you can (digitally) borrow "I, Rhoda" on audiobook and listen to Harper tell her own story.

My two favorite Television Academy interviews are Valerie and Suzanne Pleshette — Valerie because she's so warm and makes you wish you could know her, and Suzanne because she's just a classic broad and tells great stories. You get the idea she adores her gay friends but at the end of the day she just wants a stiff drink and a stiff dick.

Taxi was not an MTM show although many of the creators were MTM talent.

Rue McClanahan's Television Academy interview is also worth watching.

[quote] but at the end of the day she just wants a stiff drink and a stiff dick

Don't we all?

[quote]R46 On top of that, Rhoda tells him that she'd rather spend the weekend with Mary, because she hardly gets to see her anymore.

Rhoda = castrating harpy

[quote]that was the year Viola Davis won for FENCES.

Yeah. When "Fences" was first on Broadway the wife was played by Mary Alice who won the Tony for Best Supporting. Then movie star Viola is nominated and wins Best Actress Tony. When the movie comes out she wins for Best Supporting Oscar. The Tony should have been Valerie as Best Actress and Viola Supporting. I told Valerie she was robbed and she was very sweet and humbled and praised Viola to the hilt.

[quote]R49 It was in the same time slot as CHiPs. No one can compete with hot 1970s cop meat.

Mama’s mussy is foaming, squirting, and spinning like a dropped bottle of seltzer!

R162 Suzanne Pleshette ended up marrying Tom Poston, who played 'George' on NEWHART.

They died within months of each other -- him in April 2007 and she in January 2008.

[quote]R86 I remembered reading someone cattily observe that Walker was the ultimate fag hag during her early years. If she saw a gay guy, she'd try to bed him.

She became very close friends with Montgomery Clift in the second half of his life, as his addictions increased.

^^ Oh, I’m sorry. R100 already mentioned this : (

R166, if Rhoda was a castrating harpy, she got it from Ida. I was not surprised when Martin left her.

RHODA’S WEDDING.

A friend of mine once observed, "The character of Rhoda Morgenstern is how women from New York City wish they appeared to the world. The character of Ida Morgenstern is how women from New York city actually appear to the world."

Her wedding was a hoot. A two part or hour long and had a huge viewer ship for that time.

Valerie certainly had a shitty time with her cancer. Although she lived many years after initial diagnosis instead of the original 3 months doctors gave. I hope for most of that time she had a decent quality of life.

Interesting detail from her Wikipedia page: she was on Howard Stern and they agreed off mic to a code word she would use to communicate to him proof of life after death. After she died, a psychic Howard had on his show correctly stated the code word.

Did she indicate the end date of Stern’s show?

Let us never forget "Good Times" (1974-79), and the fact that even though the show was developed as a spin-off for Esther Rolle and John Amos, Jimmy Walker was the break-out star as 'JJ', much to the anger of Rolle and Amos. And when Amos complained, he was fired from the show and killed off after Season 3. And when Rolle continued complaining, she was written out at the end of Season 4 (but the writers didn't want to 'kill off' both parents, so they sent her out of state). Rolle returned in Season 6, but no one really cared and the show was canceled due to bad ratings.

Maybe Harper should have remembered what happened to them before she complained about Bateman.

I thought Amos also wanted more cashish due to the success of the show.

Recently learned Rose Marie was supposed to be the female star of Dick van Dyke show but Mary became the focus and Rose was PISSED.

Remember Gary? The obviously gay friend / neighbor?

R179 He did, but I believe Harper did, too.

When there is a surprise 'breakout star' in a series who suddenly carries the show on their shoulders, the network is in fear of losing them (Winkler, Walker, Bateman). They will compensate them with 'valuable gifts and perks' or a higher salary - to the chagrin of the original 'stars'. So the original stars (Amos, Rolle, Harper) start to demand 'changes' - script changes, storyline changes, focus changes, etc. - or more money, to recognize them as 'the star'. The network will either oblige, or write them out of their own series.

I read somewhere that Valerie called Sandy Duncan after the firing and they talked for a while, parting with no hard feelings.

I get the feeling the remaining cast of Family Matters still think Jaleel White is an asshole.

Suzanne Pleshette, who had been a movie star, a Broadway star, and had guest-starred in many TV drama series, gained a lot of new fans being on The Bob Newhart Show.

But it was the Bob Newhart Show, not the Suzanne Pleshette Show. (I think she did get her own show at one point, but it wasn't a hit.) She got several Emmy nominations. But somehow it was Valerie Harper, who was unknown before the MTM Show, ended up with two sitcoms where she was the star.

She left Rhoda because she was getting offers to do movies.

When Chapter Two came out there was a lot of buzz over Valerie’s new look. Blonde hair and a near anorexic frame. A few critics pointed out how thin she had gotten. If you watch the movie, she does look almost emaciated. She had gone on to be grapefruit diet and lost a lot of weight.

Valerie was on the shortlist for a Supporting Actress Oscar nomination but didn’t get one. She was nominated for the Golden Globe.

Her movie career didn’t pan out though.

R185- Tell me about it.

Shelley at least got some leads. Valerie actually waited too long if her goal was to star in movies. I remember seeing Chapter Two, don't remember that much about it but I don't recall thinking Valerie deserved an Oscar.

She played a Latina in Freebie and the Bean and was really horrible. Hispanic accent and all.

Back in 1974 she was advertised as "look who's playing Consuela!" in newspaper ads for the mobie Freebie and the Bean. awful movie

Freebie...

“Rhoda” was a mess after Joe left. Costars were cast and then written out. The parents were sent away. The set changed from bright and airy to dark. Her job changed.

Well, divorce does that.

All those wicker baskets in that second apartment...

[quote]r146 = Mary is a Phyllis

She sure as hell wasn't a Carlotta.

[quote]It had first-rate writing on the show quite often though

I agree, R89. In fact, Phyllis had better, more consistent writing than Rhoda.

And no wonder: The show's primary writers were Stan Daniels and Ed Weinberger (who went on to create Taxi) and the Charles brothers (future creators of Cheers).

Rhoda's writers were comparatively second-rate.

Isn't it Ed. Weinberger?

Here's the portion of Valerie's TV Academy interview where she discusses the sitcom and what happened but she's a bit scattered about the story. If you don't know anything about the situation going in her comments aren't likely to clear anything up. She doesn't say anything about Bateman or what brought on her initial walkout from the show

[quote]Back in 1974 she was advertised as "look who's playing Consuela!" in newspaper ads for the mobie Freebie and the Bean. awful movie

The character's name is Consuelo, which means "consolation" in English.

It's derived from Nuestra Señora del Consuelo ("Our Lady of Consolation") a Roman Catholic title of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

DESIGNING WOMEN and FAMILY GUY got it wrong when they named their maid characters Consuela, which means nothing in Spanish and is not a name in Latin America.

English-speakers get confused, because they believe Consuelo is masculine, so Consuela must be the feminine alternative, like the names Francisco and Francisca (in English Francis and Frances, respectively).

Nope. Consuelo is a name for girls and Consuela is not a name at all, except on DW and FG.

How was Valerie in "The Tale of the Allergist's Wife"?

I only saw it with the original broad.

ROZ Chast! Dammit!

It was one of the best and funniest show-posters.

She deyad.

Anything else before I take your order?

Whatever happened to the film adaptation of "The Tale of the Allergist's Wife"? There were rumors that Streisand was attached to this after she finished 'Fockers' in 2003-04, but she had said in an interview it still 'needed work'. Not sure if she was to star / direct or just star.

Then nothing happened.

[quote]R199 English-speakers get confused, because they believe Consuelo is masculine… Nope. Consuelo is a name for girls

DYKE girls!

Back in the mid-late 90s, Harper and her husband contacted the theater in my city about using the theater in the summer (their off-season) to workshop / rehearse a new play they were working on about Pears S Buck based on her book 'All Under Heaven'. My friend was part of the management team, so he was present at all the meetings they had with the couple in the beginning of the year, though he had no say in negotiations.

If the plan went through, then Harper was going to premiere this play 'off-off-Broadway' to open their upcoming season (Sept - May). The show would run five weeks. She then wanted to move it 'off-Broadway' and eventually Broadway, as she had a lot of faith in this being a hit (it was a one-woman show). The theater was just as excited - premiering Harper's play to kick off the season ? Talk about a boost to their subscriptions! - and wanted to make this happen for Harper.

My friend said everything went smoothly over that weekend, and Harper and her husband Tony couldn't be any nicer, until they hit a major hurdle. Harper and her husband wanted to take over all the office space while they were there to move their production company into, but the theater couldn't let that happen. For them it was business as usual, and they had much work to do that summer for the upcoming season. It was a very busy office on the third floor, with about fifty people. They offered Harper a whole floor of office space right across the street from the theater which they also rented (and wasn't using at the time), but she refused. She wanted to have everything under one roof, and suggested they relocate all their offices across the street for the next five months. (My friend said there was a side to her they weren't expecting as things progressed and she wasn't getting her way. Her husband Tony just sat quietly to the side and didn't say anything - and he was exec producer.) They reached an impasse, and the deal fell through. My friend did say a few weeks later they received a beautiful floral arrangement from Harper and a thank you note for all the time they spent with her trying to make this work. She hoped maybe they could work together in the future, as she loved the building. (My friend's theater was an old vaudeville theater built in the 1910s, which seated just under 400, which was ideal for Harper.)

They heard she approached the owner of another old vaudeville theater about a mile away, which had closed a few years earlier as a movie theater, and was now used for 'special events' (such as this). But the theater sat close to 700, which was way too big for what Harper wanted.

In the end, I think she did find a small theater elsewhere, not sure if she made it to off-Broadway and then Broadway.

[quote]r205 = not sure if she made it to off-Broadway and then Broadway.

R206 Oh wow ! Good for her. I guess it stopped there and didn't get to B'way, then ? Glad she made it that far.

For the record, I do remember my friend said the production sounded top-notch with how they wanted to present it onstage. She wasn't treating this as an ego-driven hobby, but a serious one-woman show. I know deep down the theater really wanted to have the 'world premiere' there - it was quite a catch to increase subscriptions.

* In Heaven, Harper impersonates 14 male and female characters, opening with an octogenarian Buck appealing to the authorities for a visa to China to visit her mother's grave. Buck was a noted humanitarian, working on behalf of the Chinese, African-Americans and others.

Characters in Buck's life represented onstage include a Chinese governess, a Chinese empress and First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt.

Tough break Sophia one minute you’re entertaining the masses the next you’re covering a corn pad on a foot. Now you know how Valerie Harper feels.

I guess it's me but I never thought Valerie Harper was a great actress. She was a good comedienne she had good comedy timing. She was charming and likeable. I can't really understand her desire to do some of the dramatic things she did. I don't think she was extraordinary. I don't blame her for not just staying in her lane, but maybe sometimes she overestimated herself.

She was a *good* actress, r210. No one has ever claimed she was "great". She had something better. She was beloved.

R211 Was she that beloved?

That aside, I meant she wanted to do these things like the one-woman show about Pearl S. Buck, playing Eleanor Roosevelt and the Empress of China and a lot of other characters, male and female. She must have had a lot of belief in her acting talent if she thought she could pull that off and take it to Broadway. Instead of, say, playing the mother in a Neil Simon play, or something.

(Not even saying she couldn't do it, technically, but you have to be brilliant in that kind of thing to really pull the audience and the acclaim to make it a big hit. And I doubt she had that kind of genius.)

[quote]r212 = Was she that beloved?

I've noticed people only have glowing things to say about her. The Rhoda character was absolutely beloved. Doing one-person shows has as much to do with the figure being represented as it does on the performance. I wasn't interested in Pearl Buck so I didn't see it. I also didn't see Mary Louise Wilson in Full Gallop or Tovah in her Golda show. I *did* see Zoe as Lillian Hellman. She had a bit more luck with Looped, but Tallulah's a bit more interesting on stage than Pearl Buck.

She got a good (if not glowing) review in the Times:

[quote]With Valerie Harper, it's the voice. Even if she's not doing her Rhoda Morgenstern nice-Jewish-girl-from-New-York accent, the tone and the knowing, contemporary rhythm of her voice send signals: this is a savvy, neurotic late-20th-century woman and she's probably about to say something funny -- ideally to Mary, Lou, Brenda or Joe. (For readers without television sets, those are characters from 'The Mary Tyler Moore Show' and 'Rhoda,' the two 1970's sitcoms in which Ms. Harper starred.)

[quote]That's why playing Pearl S. Buck with an old-lady voice, in addition to the baggy clothes and the gray hair in a bun, was actually a good idea. In 'All Under Heaven,' an intelligent and often witty one-woman show that opened at the Century Theater last night, Ms. Harper does well. The production is no tour de force, but she proves herself a competent stage actress and not a bad mimic. In addition to Buck, she plays, among others, a Chinese woman who named her son Little Meatball, Buck's unhappy West Virginia mother and Will Rogers reading a newspaper review of 'The Good Earth' ('So you go get this and read it'). She even does a very quick Nixon impersonation.

I think she gives a fine dramatic performance in Don't Go to Sleep.

I saw All Under Heaven and Harper was great in it, but she played two or three Chinese characters, with Chinese accents. That would never happen today.

Ching chong ding dong!

R200, I only saw Linda Lavin in The Tale of the Allergist’s Wife, though I would have loved to see Valerie Harper’s interpretation. In his memoir, Charles Busch praises both actresses, but hints that Lavin was stronger in the role. Valerie knew she wasn’t getting the laughs Linda had with the same lines, and was determined to improve. She asked Busch to attend several performances in a row, rehearse privately with her, and give her notes. Though he felt uneasy about stepping into director Lynne Meadow’s territory, he agreed—and was gratified to see a marked improvement in Valerie’s performance.

When 9/11 struck, she became a visible champion for keeping the theatre lights on. As the biggest name in the cast, she even offered to forgo her salary to help the show survive.

What a trouper!

[quote] Valerie knew she wasn’t getting the laughs Linda had with the same lines, and was determined to improve.

How weird to think you're a comedown following [italic]Linda Lavin.[/italic]

Linda Lavin was a comic GENIUS!

[quote]Tuesday so tell me about Valerie Harper

What the fuck do I know about Valerie Harper?

Other than she's dead and so am I.

Rhoda decides to move to New York...

I haven't watched the Mary Tyler Moore Show since it originally aired. I think this thread has inspired me to re-watch it after 50 years.

[quote]r221 = Other than she's dead and so am I.

Please contact Miss Weld and let her know!

The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated.

Hey Tuesday Wednesday, what are you doing Saturday?

I'm going to be singing Monday, Monday.

One minute you're about to entertain the masses, the next you're back on a foot covering a corn pad. Now you know how Valerie Harper feels.

Not getting these Golden Girls references.

For anyone above who's never seen this episode that introduced Lavin to CBS.

R229 Lavin also had sweat stains under her arms.

Valerie Harper did a funny interview with Howard Stern after she announced she waa terminally ill. She was a good sport when Howard told her how sexy she was. He told her he jacked off to the Rhoda wedding episode.LOL

He's pure class.

R227 Valerie Harper narrated Estelle Getty's INTIMATE PORTRAIT biography.

I've always thought they could've played mother and daughter.

On RHODA, Val's mom was played by Nancy Walker, who later played Sophia's sister Angela on GOLDEN GIRLS.

But Harper and Getty looked and sounded more similar, IMO.

I can see how Rhoda doesn’t click with audiences in the initial episode of MTM. She’s written as brash and obnoxious and doesn’t become likable until the very last minute.

I remember in an interview, Lavin said after that 'Bridal Shower' episode (one of the funniest in the whole five seasons), CBS started talking to her about joining the show as a regular supporting cast member, as the wealthy friend who partners with Rhoda in business. Harper objected, thought Lavin would get all the funny dialogue and 'become the break-out star' based on the laughs she got in that episode. So they dropped Lavin and went with Bararbar Sharma, who played 'Myrna Morgenstein'. I think they gradually phased her out by the second season - she wasn't really all that funny.

Mary Tyler Moore was surrounded with people who got most of the funny dialogue. I wonder if she objected? A lot of funny characters make a good sitcom. I guess Valerie didn't want to be the "straight man" to a lot of funny people, like Mary was (though she, too, was funny).

Mary knew how important a strong cast was to a sitcom coming from the DVD show.

I. e., she wasn't threatened by another cast member being funnier than she was...as Valerie seems to have been.

The Lavin story was posted on another message board a while back.

I think Harper objected also because felt that it would become like Mary Tyler Moore show with Brenda being the Rhoda and Lavin being the Phyllis to a more Mary Richard’s like Rhoda.

There were a lot of good guest actors on that show. Ruth Gordon, Vivian Vance, Judd Hirsch, Richard Masur.

Lavin went on to Barney Miller, I think, and some other guest spots before she got ALICE.

Where she promptly had Polly Holliday steal her sunshine.

That Lavin hussy tried to steal my husband!

The very idea.......

One of the weirdest episodes of “Rhoda” for me is when they go to the cousin’s house where the family is gathered to stop him from committing suicide because Brenda rejected him. That was a way-out concept and the rejected suitor was just too weird to like.

R235 that's exactly what happened on ALICE (1976-1985) except this time it was Linda Lavin who became jealous that Polly Holliday was the breakout star and got the laughs, so she was written out after Season 4 and got her own spinoff FLO (1980-1981) that was cancelled after 1 1/2 seasons.

Were Rhoda and Phyllis written out of the MTM Show because they were too popular and Mary didn't like it?

Linda didn't even bother to hide her annoyance with Polly that last year. You would constantly see her rolling eyes after one of Flo's jokes.

She pulled the same shit with Diane Ladd as well.

[quote] You would constantly see her rolling eyes after one of Flo's jokes.

No one was looking at her after one of my jokes

Lavin also made a guest shot on Phyllis. How this woman got so many gigs on TV so quickly I never understood. She was Lars' ex girlfriend on Phyllis and presented as the epitome of successful womanhood.

Valerie and Linda would have both been better than Bonnie Franklin on ODAAT but then all those endlessly entertaining threads would never have happened.

She was a respected, acclaimed theater actress and that was the thing to be, to get jobs on series TV, especially 3-camera sitcoms in the 70s.

The Bonnie Franklin threads are always funny. Dataloungers have never hated a television character like they hate Ann Romano.

After Harper had passed away, Linda made a remark in a TV interview that audiences always got the two women confused, as they resembled each other very closely in their looks. It's possible this also played into why she wasn't cast as a Rhoda 'costar' - Barbara Sharma couldn't have been any more opposite in the looks department.

Aside from Lavin, Vance & White as possible costars, there was the rumor back then that Ruth Gordon - who had a funny role as Carlton's mother in one episode - would make more appearances throughout the season. Gordon, supposedly, wanted too much money to make those additional appearances.

R250, we don't hate Ann Romano, we hate Franklin. It's strange but Lavin as Ann Romano seems a very distinct possibility. I can't imagine Franklin in anything.

Back then I mistook Lavin for Marcia Rod for a while

I can imagine Franklin in 'I Love to Tap!'

She was no Jessica Harper.

The big problem with Franklin as Ann Romano is that she seems in no way maternal, Lavin does. There's a warmth to Lavin onscreen (whether real or manufactured) that Franklin didn't have. I think Franklin would have been better as Alice, which after the first season, focused much less on her relationship with her son and more on her work place interactions. While ODAAT also focused on Ann's career, it was still primarily a domestic sitcom as evidenced by the fact that the main cast were all in Ann's domestic sphere and no her work place, except for Shelley Fabares character much later.

[quote]The big problem with Franklin as Ann Romano is that she seems in no way maternal,

She was a shrill, ill-tempered shrew.

Datalounge's hatred of Bonnie Franklin never gets old!

I am on Rhoda S3 now and Ron Silver has just entered as the hip ladies man in a patchwork denim outfit, long caesar cut and tinted shades. I mean, what is better than this?

Silver was a great - and much needed - character on the show. He gets better as time went on. It was a shame when he left in Season 5.

Thanks for sharing the Linda Lavin Rhoda clip.

It’s amazing that she wasn’t even nominated for that considering how actors of lesser talent get nominations for smiling these days!

Silver was an interesting character in real life as well. Had been liberal, then, after 9/11, completely flipped and became a right-winger. Was always a very talented actor, however.

[quote]The big problem with Franklin as Ann Romano is that she seems in no way maternal,

Because Bonnie wasn't. Bonnie once said that she had no interest in mothering Mac or Valerie. From inside accounts of those who worked on the show, she could be very distant. She didn't have a lot of sympathy for Mac Phillip's problems either. Michael Lembeck has talked about the frustration he had seeing Phillips in trouble and no one on the show really caring. Valerie did admit that she never really grasped the severity of Phillips issues until years later. But Bonnie always seemed adamant in justifying Mac having to get fired twice from the show.

Linda, despite her issues, does seem like a warm person. When Phillip passed, she said he taught her how to be a mother as she took care of him on the set. Nancy was close with her as well.

R198 that interview was like an SNL sketch. She appeared to have like 3 strokes throughout the 5 minute interview. I have never giggled so hard

R263 What you say about Franklin and her TV daughters is very different from what they said after she passed. Both actresses said she was really like a mother to them on the set. She gave them a lot of guidance, and was there for them when they needed her. Bertinnelli said she took her death particularly hard at the time.

They grew closer in later years, but this special from 2000 was made when things were still icy and Phillips and Bertinelli were not speaking. Starts at 1 hour in. Bonnie explicitly states she was more of an older advisor and not a parental figure. And you can sense the tension in many of their answers.

Valerie and Bonnie were always very close. They shopped and traveled together all the time. Mac eventually developed a close relationship with both, but it took a lot of years to get there.

I was looking for Dinah clips to post on the thread devoted to her, but thought this one belonged here.

R267 Not as bad as I feared it was going to be.

[quote]Bonnie explicitly states she was more of an older advisor and not a parental figure

Glenn Scarpelli expressed this as well. He said she confronted him after a read-through after he'd been on the show a short time and told him to speak up during read-through and rehearsals, that his opinions were just as valid as anyone else's and the writers needed feedback from someone his age since they were writing for a kid/young teen.

What Glenn didn't say....Bonnie SLAPPED him and said "hey, you.....contribute!"

How did this become another thread about Bonnie Franklin?

And Linda Lavin.

It's still Tuesday. I haven't watched a Rhoda episode since Sat am coffee. Hoping to get back to it this weekend. What are the chances Rhoda will be wearing a head scarf?

If Tuesday Weld married Frederic March's son and namesake, she'd be Tuesday March, the Second.

[quote] How did this become another thread about Bonnie Franklin?

The stench of Bonnie and her fried egg titties eventually overtakes every thread.

Bonnie's fried egg titties were free range.

Looped flopped, big time.

R10, Looped was great. Loved every moment. Not sure it was a money maker but surely it was a great night of theater.

It ran for all of 33 performances…after years of being re-worked.

Didn't Valerie get sick with cancer, and that's why the show closed?

No

Every episode was me watching Sandy Duncan to figure out which one was the glass eye.

Sandy Duncan does not have a glass eye.

She does here.

Yes she does r283. Remember the episode when Sandy's glass eye fell out in the kitchen and then Jason and the two ugly brothers played "keep away" with it?

A recent Reddit thread on Valerie and the whole fiasco with her sitcom.

R286 Oh, wow. Someone on that thread does NOT care for Valerie. At. ALL.

[quote] The stories about Valerie being difficult to work with go beyond The Hogan Family debacle -- there are numerous recorded instances. Not to mention the nasty campaigning that went on when she was running for President of SAG and she lost in a landslide to Melissa Gilbert but complained and somehow got a new election ordered and she lost that as well. She was an obnoxious burden who spent most of her career getting fired from things and losing elections and whining about it.

I forgot all about the SAG thing. That was a big drama.

I blame Patty Duke Astin

Wasn’t it Valerie vs Shitbra Gilbert? Which side will DL take?

Val got the shitbra!

She seems "high maintenance."

Does she have an orange plastic prescription bottle with a child-proof cap in this scene? That wasn't what pills came in, in Tallulah's time.

This scene...

Maybe I'm wrong, though. I just remember glass pill bottles from the '60s.

Melissa managed to come off as a major bitch in her own book, so I doubt Valerie was completely to blame.

She also drew a lot of ire as SAG president

Shitbra versus Rhoda, now there's a gay Sophie's Choice if there ever was one...

the hippie beaded curtains and the 1-800-Psychic turban

that apartment was just one big mattress

I always remember the episode where Rhoda didn't feel like going to work, it was raining, and she skipped maybe one or two more days, and her mother finally had to tell her she wasn't sick and to get back to work. I haven't seen it since it aired, so I'm probably getting it wrong. It made an impression on me, for some reason.

Life is such a sweet insanity!

I remember when Joan Rivers died in 2014, Harper called in to one of the TV shows and gave a lovely tribute to her. She had said that she and Rivers were close friends for years, meeting for the first time at a luncheon Lucille Ball had hosted in the early 70s for 'funny women' in show biz. Harper said Rivers always asked her to come on the Carson show when she was hosting, and Harper tried to accommodate her because Rivers really made her laugh in their interviews.

R300 I remember that as well. I believe that was one of the early episodes in season one of 'Rhoda'. IIRC, Rhoda was staying with her parents, and she was depressed because no one wanted to hire her as a window-dresser. She was giving up, pretended she was sick so she wouldn't have to go out again and 'face rejection'. Ida told her to get out of bed and not give up - face the day and face the challenges, even if it was rejection. She couldn't get into a depression. It left an impression on me, as well - good learning lesson for everyone (at the time it aired, America was going through a major economic depression and unemployment was high).

Valerie Harper seemed like an unlikely choice to get into a bitter feud for SAG president but then again remember the last election with Matt Modine and Frances Fisher bitching about Fran?

These elections get brutal!

Melissa's recounting of the SAG presidency race was hilarious. She describes Valerie as being overly enamored of Kent McCord, who was a piece of cardboard, and Sally Kirkland generally being insane at the meetings.

R305 - Kent McCord was GAY cardboard.

He had STRONG gay stare in the eyes.

^^Looks a bit like Kurt Russell in the eyes. I don't see gay eyes here.

[quote] It seems unfair to give someone a show with their name in the title and then change the focus to one of the kids.

R158 That’s showbiz, kid.

[quote]Jason and the two ugly brothers

I'm the same age as Jeremy Licht and always had a huge crush on him. He was hardly ugly though the mullet he sported in later seasons was unfortunate

[quote]They make reference to its success in Orson Welles's voiceover in "network,"

What are you talking about, R89? Welles in Network? Kidding?

Orson Welles is the narrator of Network.

If you're talking about the 1976 movie, R311, Lee Richardson was the narrator. I'm more than happy that that old ham Welles wasn't 1000 feet of Sidney Lumet's film.

I can't beleive the popularity of MTM threads. If I was just a couple of years older I would know what the heck you were all talking about.

Can’t, I’m in Belgium on Tuesdays.

When I was a kid I thought Valerie Harper and Karen Valentine looked like sisters.

R315 I can kinda see that