The Gilded Age Season 3 Viewing Thread: Part 3

Well, someone's got to break the ice, and it might as well be me. I mean, I'm used to being a hostess, it's part of my husband's work. And it's always difficult when a group of new friends meet together for the first time, to get acquainted. So I'm perfectly prepared to start the ball rolling. I mean, I-I have absolutely no idea what we're doing here. Or what I'm doing here, or what this place is about, but I am determined to enjoy myself. And I'm very intrigued, and, oh my, this soup's delicious, isn't it?

When is Foghorn Leghorn making her return?

Right now, I’m at the Sargent & Paris show in the Met—seeing the real deal reminds you how weak the tv show is.

OP

Thank you for the continuation.

I keep seeing in the previews on YT that Bertha BEGS MARION for some shit?

Is the Season end cliffhanger going to be about Daddy'd Railroad Shares?

R3 how long will it run? I was thinking of traveling to NYC in a few months to see it and see a couple of shows too.

Closes on Sunday. I believe the next stop is Paris.

I'm just bored by Larry and Marian at this point. It seemed inevitable at first, but now it just seems mindless and the worst kind of frauish reasoning. They're young. They're pleasant. They're attractive. They get along fine, and the wedding would be beautiful. But really, so fucking what? There doesn't seem to be anything in particular that would make them want to spend their lives together, forever. And it's going to become completely stupid if Bertha, who doesn't particularly want this marriage, is left to beg Marian to forgive her son (for nothing, really). I mean, I get this show is primarily for fraus, even more than us, but still, aren't the fraus bored by this whole thing?

It would be more interesting if Marian realizes, yeah, this whole thing has been just kind of wrong, but still winds up in business with Larry's father cause of those shares. I think she was supposed to be a more independent woman and a more independent character, somewhat to the aunts' horror, and this could get her back to that.

R8 I am remembering the comments made by the showrunners when Matthew died in DA. They said that they felt they'd exhausted the storyline and there was no more drama to infuse it with. So they killed him. (Also because Dan Stevens wanted out. He didn't feel challenged enough.) The whole "happily ever after" doesn't make for a good story line. So now they injected some drama in Marian and Larry's story. I have to wonder how they resolve it because either one or both of them have to be written out at some point. Think about it. Let's say for purposes of this discussion, Marian and Larry go through this agonizing period towards reconciliation. Then there's a wedding...then what? It's already a struggle to keep things interesting. I suspect, Marian will leave. One way or another.

[quote] They get along fine, and the wedding would be beautiful. But really, so fucking what? There doesn't seem to be anything in particular that would make them want to spend their lives together, forever

It’s because they are cardboard characters. Just generic “nice young people.” No personalities. Just plot vehicles.

Larry is about to butt heads with his father ans Marian is about to become rich again.

All kinds of options there.

Who knows, maybe Marion exits pursued by a bear?

Regarding Marian, they could take a page from “The Forsythe Saga” and have her get involved with someone like an artist or architect, someone society considers distinctly “unsuitable.” Then he jilts her for a married woman, Marian discovers that her worthless railroad shares are anything but, and becomes (like June Forsythe after she’s jilted) a wealthy eccentric bohemian, who backs daring young artists and founds a home for pregnant single women.

You can see threads of some of these ideas in various subplots already, the problem is that when a series is written season to season, when it could end at any time, it’s hard to plot out an interesting long term story for each character, the way you can in a novel. So instead they run from one invented crisis to another.

I rather like the idea of Marian becoming Bertha's daughter in law and butting heads with her.

For a look at the real Gilded Age: in NYC for two more days, or in Paris this fall.

I highly recommend it.

Another week, another record beat.

[quote]Season 3 is now outpacing Season 2 by 25% in viewers, while every episode of the third season has delivered audience growth. The Season 3 finale is scheduled to air Aug. 10.

If we're voting for Marian or Larry to be ousted, I vote for Marian.

Preferably by a flying leg o' mutton sleeve!

They've had a wedding, so they won't need one for awhile. If they're going to follow soap opera conventions, there should be arrival of mysterious (and possibly evil) relative---perhaps even an evil twin, someone should develop amnesia, and a murder trial (John Adams' death would be handy).

I still can't believe Merritt Wever was only in it for one episode. Bring her back!

Love it r18. In fact, how about if there's a secret sister, the one Ada and Agnes never discuss, and she's been living in the attic all this time.

And then one day ... she comes downstairs! (or maybe, she's been sneaking out, like the murderous bitch she is, killing random homos in the street with her weird little carriage.)

[quote]Who knows, maybe Marion exits pursued by a bear?

Thanks for the laugh.

You can be sure I'll be back in S4 to stir some shit!

Maybe Marian should get a job as a prostitute at the Haymarket.

Marian is not leaving, R9. The show is basically told from her point of view.

r24, I think that was the notion in S1 but is no longer true. Marian's role seems quite diminished to me this season....though maybe with the last episode that will change.

Gotta say, even though I'm not a big Cynthia Nixon fan, her two big scenes last week, telling off the phony medium and informing AC Jack it's time to move on, were better acted AND WRITTEN than anything they've ever done before on the series. The Jack scene in particular was just so real and tender and intelligent and made us understand something more of the upstairs/downstairs relationship that the series had never before nailed. I wonder who wrote it.

So is Marian Edith or Lady Mary?????

Marian = Mary

Gladys = Edith

r25 I agree, those two scenes were pure magic and honestly not something I expect to see when I tune into this show.

I know people mostly didn't enjoy the charlatan arc and were glad it ended abruptly, but Cynthia acted the shit out of all those scenes.

I wholeheartedly agree R25. Marian was the original star and the bridge between the old money and new money. Now she’s just an annoying background character that no one cares about.

Bertha and Agnes are the true stars.

Marian could be what Edith really should've been, and it would actually right a wrong. They made the stupid decision to marry Edith off in the same dull way that fraus think is the happiest ending possible. It was stupid and useless, and having Marian have a stupid, useless marriage would have the same effect.

If on the other hand they decide, no, Marian is actually going to go in a different direction, that could actually be a lot better, for the character but also for the show.

Interestingly, two of the major characters in TGA Season 3 (Cynthia Nixon and Audra Macdonald) are giving terrific performances, while in the very same year, they are bombing in other projects (Cynthia = And Just Like That, Audra = Gypsy). It may be the writing, or more likely, the direction, but it's easy to see that without these two strong elements, a performance can go off the rails.

Agnes has even less to do than Marian so I think some of you old bitties are just engaging in your usual elderly diva worship.

Marian doesn’t have to be the star of the show for the show to be told from her point of view. She is literally the narrator of the show. The show is not told from Bertha’s point of view. Nor is it told from Agnes’ point of view.

Marian is the only character with a a window into all of the worlds explored her. She is the common thread. She isn’t leaving.

IMO Agnes has devolved to being not much more than comic relief.

Right now, Agnes is little more than the Countess Dowager for this show.

Except without all the juicy lines I ad-libbed.

*biddy

Agnes has never had a plot line about her and has become a completely unnecessary character. Fellowes is afraid to make her the conservative bigot that kind of woman would have been in historical reality. Just my opinion but having a character like Agnes interact as she does with Peggy, as an equal, sweet as it may be, just goes too far from NY society life in the 1880s. I do wonder if the series had been conceived and produced by an American, it would have taken this route.

In British historical TV now there's the mixing of people of all colors but those series don't pretend to be about class and race structure. Unless, of course, it's Bridgerton which is taken as a fantasy.

R37 never met JP Morgan’s personal librarian and chief acquisition agent.

Morgan's librarian Belle da Costa Greene was a Black woman who famously passed as white. And Morgan didn't hire her until 1905, 21 years after The Gilded Age is set. I suspect she also didn't hang out at JP Morgan's home as Peggy does at Agnes' brownstone.

Personally I think there are too many wimmin in GA. Marian, Agnes, Ada, Bertha, Gladys, Gladys sister-iin-law, Lady Sarah, Lina Astor, Mrs. Fane, Mrs. Fish, Mrs. Winterton, the downstairs people,, at the Van Rijns and the downstairs people at the Russells. And then there's Peggy, her mother, and Felicia Rashad's character. Then they kill off gratuitously, the one Gay man who cared about Oscar, now the only Gay man among the first tier of actors. Larry Russell, George Russell, and the interchangeable cast of men who are not regulars, Peggy's father and her doctor love, and her former employer are not critical to the storylines. They have to write out a woman...or two...or three. SOMEONE HAS TO DIE!!!!

R40, maybe Julian can do a Moldavian Massacre

I read "The Glitter and the Gold," Consuelo Vanderbilt Balsan's memoir. The Kindle version is on Amazon for $15.99.) Her writing is better than expected from a key player of that era. I definitely recommend it as a sidepiece to "The Gilded Age," as it's obvious the screenwriter used it as a primary reference tool. There are real life women with the names "Bertha," "Gladys" and "Russell" (though not of those portrayed in the show) and Consuelo doesn't spare her aggressive and dictatorial mother Alva, while lionizing her beloved father W.K Vanderbilt Pulled from her journals, Consuelo's sophisticated and unpretentious style is a real page-turner as she details the period during which she lived in glowing and concise terms, though there is little reflection on her marriages - the first one to the Duke of Marlborough and the second and last to the handsome and (less) wealthy textile heir Jacques Balsan. She was the most beautiful of the "Dollar Heiresses" and the book tracks her life from the Industrial Age to the the beginning of the Second World War.

I read "The Glitter and the Gold," Consuelo Vanderbilt Balsan's memoir. The Kindle version is on Amazon for $15.99.) Her writing is better than expected from a key player of that era. I definitely recommend it as a sidepiece to "The Gilded Age," as it's obvious the screenwriter used it as a primary reference tool. There are real life women with the names "Bertha," "Gladys" and "Russell" (though not of those portrayed in the show) and Consuelo doesn't spare her aggressive and dictatorial mother Alva, while lionizing her beloved father W.K Vanderbilt Pulled from her journals, Consuelo's sophisticated and unpretentious style is a real page-turner as she details the period during which she lived in glowing and concise terms, though there is little reflection on her marriages - the first one to the Duke of Marlborough and the second and last to the handsome and (less) wealthy textile heir Jacques Balsan. She was the most beautiful of the "Dollar Heiresses" and the book tracks her life from the Industrial Age to the the beginning of the Second World War.

The Industrial Age started many moons before she was ever conceived of.

But R44 I was only off by about a hundred years!

[quote]Fellowes is afraid to make her the conservative bigot that kind of woman would have been in historical reality.

As opposed to the Episcopal Abolitionist, she was? Only the South had Slave Owning Jesus churches. Southern Baptists, Southern Methodists, Southern Presbyterian and those Church of Christ poor churches for Snake Handlers and Pentecostals.

Rich Anglicans were the beginnings of churches that believed that freed slaves had souls.

There was no fear in making Agnes a rich, abolitionist.

What was interesting is that she is not a SEGREGATIONIST.

Yeah I don’t understand this insistence that ALL northern white women in that time period were all conservative bigots on race.

I say de facto, you say de jure.

R46: She doesn't want any non-rich people of any color on her block other than servants. She's not a prohibitionist which would suggest she wasn't obsessed about immigrants or Catholics the way that many in her class were.

[quote] Some people just have specialized knowledge that you or I don’t [R593]. Maybe the poster works in costume design for a living. Or is an antique dealer who specializes in clothes. Personally I find it fascinating.

Duh, elderlez. What's funny is dropping such knowledge into a DL thread with no context or explanation. It's not a bad thing, it's fascinating, but funny with no context.

Everyone on DL is some ¥ expert ¥

It’s in the homo genome LOL

I am taking to my bed until Sunday's episode.

[quote] She's not a prohibitionist which would suggest she wasn't obsessed about immigrants or Catholics the way that many in her class were.

Or bitch won't give up her gin, more like! Oh well, I tried to save this house from perdition.

Is this the week Leslie “hucka the bejeepers” Uggams shows up??

R54, yes, it is, and I’m sure she will deliver a patter song from The Pirates of Penzance with the same clarity and precision like she did with “June Is Busting Out All Over.”

R55, well June's on Ozempic now and so far she lost 30 pounds. So Leslie can fuck off.

While I think there's a lot to criticize about this show, the Oscar character has turned into a more nuanced, interesting guy than expected. On the face of it, he just seems like your average spoiled, clueless douche, but his downfall and the ways he has (or hasn't) coped makes it one of the more interesting storylines.

Maybe John Adams will leave all his money to Oscar.

I think there's been a missed opportunity on this series not featuring any characters who are servants to the wealthy Black characters. Now, there's some potential for some rare complex story-telling.

Not that the series needs still more characters, but I just wish that had been an aspect from the beginning instead of now introducing more wealthy Blacks like those played by Phylicia Rashad and Leslie Uggams.

"complex storytelling"?!?!?!?

In a Julian Fellowes show??!?!?!?

Oh, my sides....

Tonight's episode is the start of the end for Nathan Lane's character. Ward McAllister was pretty much entirely ostracized from society after publishing "Society as I Have Found It" in real life (which the trailer for tonight has shown will come out in tonight's episode), although in actuality it did not come out until 1890, which was after Mrs. Astor moved uptown and built her famous ballroom which would only hold 400 comfortably (McAllister and Mrs. Astor together drew up the list of the 400 who would be invited to big events there, which everyone longed to be on).

R61: WE can only hope. He's annoying character with all that stereotypical Southern bullshit.

Well, SOME of us/WE love our Foghorn Gayhorn!!!!!

One of the few real delights of this clunky show!

10 minutes in. Where is the commentary?

Anybody live streaming?

Quarter over, anu updates?

Oscar's breakdown and the reactions of his family was so fucking sad and tragic. And Gladys actually seems happy with the Duke!

I think Agnes suspects something about Oscar and John. And the Streepling definitely knows. Aida is too oblivious.

Why would Foghorn Leghorn write a book about these people and expect nothing to change.

It was all there on Baranski's face. I think Aida gets it, too.

I’d like a butler named Hefty

r60, I sad: ".....some potential for some rare complex story-telling...."

I think we agree.

We get to know the white people's servants. Why don't we get to know the Black people's servants? Which might even break through this series' cliches and predictability.

I told you Agnes was wise enough to realize what was really going on with Oscar. She just chose to ignore it like Hyacinth did with Sheridan.

Jack is back!!!!

Cynthia Nixon reunited with Lisa Gay Hamilton who played her upstairs neighbor on SATC.

Whoa!

I'm assuming George lives since Bertha has her ball.

[quote] Why would Foghorn Leghorn write a book about these people and expect nothing to change.

That's exactly what happened in real life. Ward McAllister really did write a book called "Society as I Have Found It" and was excommunicated from high society as a result.

Good episode. Poor Peggy. She doesn’t stand a chance against the snobby and gossipy Phylicia Rashad.

And poor Mr. Russell. I assume Clay is behind it?

I’m glad they efficiently dispatched the Clock Twink buying a house and Marian finding out Larry was innocent in one scene.

I wish I could say the same about the leaking maid storyline which was way too many scenes and completely ho hum. Even Bertha was bored by it.

Not sure how they pull the ball off but I never underestimate Big Bertha.

I don't think there was one moment tonight that rang true. It's all such badly written afternoon soap opera.

Actually, r80, the assassination attempt against George Russell was much like that against the industrialist Henry Clay Frick in his office in downtown Pittsburgh in 1892 by the anarchist Alexander Berkman.

HBO would be wise not to kill off George, people are still pissed they did that to Joel.

And yet R80 you watch it every week.

R83 has never heard of the term, "hate watch".

TGA manages to be a show that you can love to hate.

Though, there are times it's just a show you hate and you're tempted to stop. Fortunately, Uncle Julian manages to write a decent episode once or twice a year that manages to pull us back in.

While there are those who felt the same way about Downstairs Abbey, I managed to watch the first season but then stopped because it was just boring and stupid.

Also boring...people who make the same lazy/boring comment on EVERY thread who think they're being oh so clever.

No. They're not. Just boring and redundant.

I saw a trailer for a new HBO series coming in September, Task with Mark Ruffalo. I think he's a good actor, I'll give it a whirl.

Nixon was especially good tonite. The old maid scene was very touching. Although I'm surprised she didn't push the writers for a scene where Agnes tells Oscar she's gay, too!

I'm paralyzed. They absolutely cannot kill George!

Is Russell more of a Gould or a Frick. Make up your mind, Julian.

It was very convenient for John Adams to have sister in whom he confided every last thing. That moved things along efficiently.

Methinks Marian’s crying out “I’ll do anything for you!” In the trailer was to Larry and it concerns what she thought were worthless railroad stocks.

I've noticed in episode 6, when Baranski was filmed in bed with her long-haired wig, she's looking more and more like Carly Simon as she gets older -especially in this series.

Who got shot right before George? I looked away at something and didn't catch it. Was it the butler?

R93. I think it was his secretary or some other office underling.

Seventy years after Ward MCAlister, Truman Capote does the same thing to his "swans"? Didn't that silly little queen read history?

OK, this is weird and kind of funny. I'm watching the show on HBO Max, and it's in spanish. I tried changing the dubbing to english but it stays in spanish. I had to change the language to "English with Audio Description." Is this happening to anyone else?

I'm with R91.

R96 Yes!!!! It happened to us, too!!!

We couldn't get rid of the damn audio description even though we clicked it to off!!!

Yeah, what if Marian’s “worthless” railroad bonds blow up into the biggest power move of the season? Picture this. Those bonds turn out to cover prime land George Russell desperately needs. She holds the cards, not George.

Now add Larry into the mix. He’s grown up fast—he’s sharp, fair, and he’s not afraid to ask “What’s in it for me?” I’m betting he sees Marian’s upside and quietly guides her toward leasing the land instead of selling it cheap. That means steady income, real influence, and zero need for Bertha’s approval.

Imagine Marian becoming the new social magnet. People flock to her because she’s genuine. She didn’t claw her way up. She just stayed true to herself. Meanwhile Bertha loses her grip. Agnes has to swallow her pride. And the whole “old moneys. new money” game gets flipped on its head.

R96, R98 - It's some kind of streaming mishap that's specific to GA, not any of the other programming on Max. Change the language to Latin American Spanish. It'll start playing in English again.

Larry made $300k off the Alarm Clock Jack deal...he has his own money already.

Everybody wants those railroad bonds to be a plot point but...is Uncle Julian really clever enough to bring that back as an actual plot point?

If he does, it's because he visits here or has minions who do.

Incorrect, R100.

I don’t live in GA, & it happened to me as well.

I attempted to switch it to Spanish, in the settings, & it still did not work.

R102 "GA" refers to "Gilded Age" not George.

Or, so I assume.

GEORGIA!!!!

Yes, my recap was in English, but then the show was dubbed in Spanish. I also figured out that I could switch it to Spanish. I live in Valdosta, Georgia.

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one with the Spanish glitch! I was going crazy.

Just a couple more thoughts about the previous episode, before I switch gears to the latest one.

I loved the parallel of Sarah and Rashad, two women from two totally different backgrounds across the ocean, using pretty much the same talking point against women's suffrage. Also, Bertha leaning in slightly at dinner to try and hear the fallout from Gladys telling off Sarah was everything.

And this closing shot of Gladys finally in her own (blossoming) garments again, standing as a diving line between her husband and Sarah. Seconds before that, Sarah was actually looking away, which was even more poignant.

*dividing line

Did you see Agnes' moment of clarity towards the end of Oscar's breakdown when she clocks what's going on? Great acting by Baranski.

That whole scene was amazing, I'm surprised there was just one additional scene with Marian in his room later on and then they dropped it. Guess there wasn't enough time, what with all the other insanity going on.

The point is, the whole family now knows Oscars double life.

Prediction, Agnes pushes him to marry and provide a van R heir.

Prediction: Agnes runs for President ! Move over Hillary and Kamala !

The Spanish thing was happening in NY too. Maddening, or as my tv would say, enloquecedor.

Not just GA. I'm in Houston and had to watch it with audio description. I heard later that if you switched to Spanish Latin America you got English.

I can’t believe Uncle Julian did the tired ‘bury your gays’ trope.

So many things running through Agnes' head at once upon realising her only son was [italic]that,[/italic] i.e. any parent's worst nightmare. No doubt she immediately started thinking where she went wrong in his upbringing and what she might have done in the past to deserve such cruel fate. Maybe the priest could help, probably also ran through her mind. No grandchildren, that much is certain by now.

All in all, what a disaster for poor old Agnes.

Phylicia Rashad is fun to watch here. The cuntier she gets, the more her eyes light up.

That lady who gave her the Peggy goss was cunty as well, living for every moment of that revelation. Had the Mona Lisa smile at the very end as well, after Rashad had already stormed off. Loved her little rhodochrosite neck broach.

*brooch!

^That was no lady. That was Uggams!

I’m in AJLT, and we had no Spanish issues.

Leslie posted about it on Facebook last night!

When Armstrong was reading Ward's book, she said there was something in it about Oscar that she didn't understand. That could have been either the gay part or him getting scammed.

Loved seeing Lane act opposite Coon, but why wasn't it a bigger deal when Bertha came over to the Van Rhijns? Wasn't that a whole plot for two seasons? Guess we're past that now.

Livingston Manor and the date 1750 were mentioned twice, both times quite awkwardly. Groundwork for the next season?

Very unnatural not to ask for the details on what she “didn’t understand” about Oscar.

Marion’s father was not a railroad man. He was known for marrying beneath his class and squandering his inheritance. While it’s possible that the “worthless” railroad stock might turn out to have some value, it is very unlikely to be of decisive importance to Russell.

R122. Looks like Mrs Astor has accepted Bertha so everyone else will follow.

The question of Bertha’s place in society has been long settled. Now she is hosting Mrs Astor’s ball, has founded the Metropolitan Opera and is the mother of a Duchess.

When Larry was moping around about Marian I thought he should immediately go over to Alarm Clock Jack's new house and fuck him.

They would both feel better.

I have a feeling they're going to leave us with a whopper of a cliffhanger.

The weirdest scene last night was when Bertha invited Ward McAllister to her house simply to tell him she was going to host the final ball of the Newport season and allow divorced women to attend, but she was not going to let him attend. Why would she have told him about letting divorced women in, then? The writers were just having her deliver plot exposition for no reason.

I wonder if it was just to deliver the “cruelest” insult; to be more socially unacceptable than a divorced woman had to have an especial sting.

I assume Agnes was primed for her realization about Oscar by the coded insinuations in the McCallister book that she had just read. Has anyone read the real book? Are there gay references in it? I don’t think Agnes cares about the fact that Oscar is gay. I think she’s worried about scandal and realizing that other people are going to put two and two together because of the book.

Oscar will need to turn the property over to his mother who will donate it to Ms. Foster of the historical society and then she’ll be a patron again.

What would someone like Agnes call us back then? Perverts, inverts, deviants, sodomites? "Homosexual" only appeared in German print for the first time 14 years earlier, so I doubt it made it to America yet.

I fear for Oscar if Agnes ever gets angry with him and lets one of those out, it's going to be so hurtful. I kinda wanna see it, though.

Lord Douglas, of course!

Ohh, foreshadowing! As they taught us in 9th grade…🫣

[quote] I assume Agnes was primed for her realization about Oscar by the coded insinuations in the McCallister book that she had just read. Has anyone read the real book? Are there gay references in it?

There's actually very little gossip about particular people in the real Ward McAllister book, despite what the show said. Most of it is innocuous and ridiculously fussy: all about the proper way to chill wine and what his favorite quadrilles played at balls are. he was much mocked in the book reviews for his persnicketiness about such trivial things.

What he actually got in trouble for was explaining in what chapter what the coasts of everything in high society were--you weren't ever supposed to talk publicly about the prices of things if you were from that caste.

Money, money!

The Weimar Germans were more upfront.

[quote] What would someone like Agnes call us back then? Perverts, inverts, deviants, sodomites? "Homosexual" only appeared in German print for the first time 14 years earlier, so I doubt it made it to America yet.

It really didn't have a term as an identity category in popular discourse until the Oscar Wilde trials several years later. You would be more likely called an Unspeakable or a sodomite. In medical discourse you'd be more likely called a Uranian--but even there they would talk more about the act itself ("Uranian love") rather than as an identity category.

[quote] The weirdest scene last night was when Bertha invited Ward McAllister to her house simply to tell him she was going to host the final ball of the Newport season and allow divorced women to attend, but she was not going to let him attend.

It was to let Nathan Lane know that his time is up.

He had to get back to Cathedral City….

Confirmed bachelor proceed and followed by an extra second pause and said ditto voce

EW: The moment is the first time we've seen Oscar even hint at his sexuality in his mother's presence, acknowledging the charade they both participate in to keep up appearances. As he escapes to his rooms upstairs, the camera lingers on Agnes' face, a thoughtful and pensive look that suggests she knows exactly what he means.

"She finally has to admit something that she never wanted to even consider because it's so taboo," Baranski tells Entertainment Weekly. "It would be so horrifying to her. And yet, when he plays out that scene and goes up the stairs a broken man, it's heartbreaking for me to realize that he can't speak to me about it."

"She's so far from her own child in terms of understanding and empathizing," Baranski continues. "It is just the horror of it — he has lived with this probably his whole life, and I can never speak to him about it."

"There were just many emotions, but a profound sense of sadness that it cannot be spoken of," she reflects. "And we don't speak of it when he leaves. We don't even lift our eyes. I remember putting a letter back in an envelope. Marian goes back to sewing."

Drama!

IRL, families saw their sons & brothers go about their business. Just because it didn’t have a noun doesn’t mean it wasn’t fappening.

The Ward McAllister book is freely available, if you can stand it. And honestly I think it will be interesting to some, if you really, really want to know about fashions and decor and foods and wines of the late 19th century high society. And some people do, not being snarky, it's an interest.

I was bouncing around, and I'm bored and weirdly fascinated by how obsessive he is about shit. But that of course is why he became the person he was, and the role he had. I agree there's no real scandal, like none, at least that I've found. The anecdotes are mostly people being pompous (though Ward of course doesn't get that), or kind of assholes, or sometimes a little clever, but nothing anybody could really be scandalized about.

I agree with r134 the scandal was admitting how much money people were spending on frivolous bullshit, and it was all very easy to satirize. As a group, they really do come across as fools in this book, but inadvertently. I do hope everyone involved with making The Gilded Age read it, because it really does have a ton of little details and things they should know, and also does have a whole attitude that an influential segment of that society would have about how to do things.

[quote]It was to let Nathan Lane know that his time is up.

She knew he already knew quite well. Earlier in the episode Bertha had been to the meeting at Ada's and Agnes's house where they all decided they were going to permanently freeze him out.

I fear for Oscar if Agnes ever gets angry with him and lets one of those out, it's going to be so hurtful. I kinda wanna see it, though.

Agnes wouldn't do that. She's not a monster.

Christine Baranski was great last night silently reacting to Oscar's meltdown. She now has admitted to herself that he was in love with John Adams, and that unlike Marian she greatly disapproves of it, but she also showed you she immediately realized she was not going to risk pushing things any further.

In Maurice, the Cambridge tutor advises his students reading Plato to “omit a reference to the unspeakable vice of the Greeks”

Blake Ritson was very good in this episode

I thought that the scene of Oscar’s breakdown was one of the strongest of the series so far, well written and excellently acted, especially by the three women, who managed in their separate ways to get across the idea that they knew exactly what his outburst meant and then immediately recalibrated to smooth it over, explain it away and put it out of mind. Of course Agnes can’t do that, this is yet another blow to her view of the world. Oscar is lucky he doesn’t have the sort of mother and aunt who would immediately consult a doctor and lawyer to have him declared imcompetent and locked away somewhere.

I’m keen to see what sort of life Clock Twink will make for himself. Thought their choice of a new home for him was right on — Victorian luxe indoors to our eyes, but a fairly narrow rowhouse on a street of upper middle class homes. I bet he could rent that building for a few thousand a year, and hire a butler and maid/cook for little money too. But what kind of society will he try to enter? Lots of potential for next season.

As handsome as the good doctor is, Peggy never had a chance against his dragon of a mother, and he doesn’t strike me as enough of a renegade to ‘forgive’ her and marry her come what may. She’s better off though she may not think so. The question is whether the editor will separate and/ or divorce his wife for her. Is she enough of a renegade to marry him when her mother and father would object to that as strongly as the doctor’s mother has objected to Peggy?

I like Marian and Larry as a couple, they’re attractive and grounded and intelligent. Assuming they marry next season will they spearhead a new younger, racier generation of NY bluebloods in society? It’s an idea with possibilities.

Mr. Fortune was a creep trying to go with her to Philadelphia when she didn’t want him to. Peggy deserves better.

[quote] The question is whether the editor will separate and/ or divorce his wife for her.

I doubt it. T. Thomas Fortune was an actual historical figure, and never divorced his wife after they married in 1878.

R130 Why would Oscar have to turn over the Livingston Manor house to Agnes?

Peggy with a crusading editor would be more interesting than Peggy with some tiresome Society Doctor and tiresome Society family that she's "supposed" to be with.

Similarly, Marian and Larry are a crashing bore together. Both of them should find somebody more interesting rather than just mindlessly falling into some dullwitted marriage that has been plotted out for them.

[quote] [R130] Why would Oscar have to turn over the Livingston Manor house to Agnes?

My guess is he'll do that to square accounts with his mother, since he lost her entire fortune when he was scammed.

I know Oscar feels guilty, of course, but really Agnes is not exactly suffering. She's rich people "poor," living in the same big mansion she's always lived in waited on by the same servants. I hope Oscar doesn't feel the need to give her some other house that she probably doesn't even want.

I have no idea exactly where inside her Nixon reached to deliver that spinster talk scene with Marian, but she needs to keep reaching there. Unreal, one of the best actors on this show somehow.

The spy thing was so predictable and a waste of time.

R155 Uh, Cynthia Nixon is a terrific actress. Always has been. She's been endlessly snarked on, here at DL, mainly for her wife and her politics and some of her public utterances but as an actress, she really is the real deal.

TGA and Uncle Julian, fucked up by trying to include too many servants and I'm especially looking at the Russell servants.

They aren't needed as major characters. The only servants they should have developed as any kind of character should have been the van Rijn household which is really the center story for the show.

For the Russells, I would have had George's valet and Bertha's ladies maid developed as being useful minor support and the butler but there was ZERO need to ever really have much to do with cooks and housekeepers. They should have been very minor day players we might see a couple times a season, and briefly.

One funny thing last night when the Scooby Doo Servants were confronting Frenchie the Maid was one of them gasping, "you did this for a mere $40?!?!?"

Uh, $40 was a LOT of money in 1884. And, since she'd been leaking her tittle tattle for months, the Frenchie Maid must have quite a lot of money put away. No one of that class would poo poo $40.

R157, and been so since childhood.

R156. Absolutely. What purpose did it serve? And it was so quickly solved.... They have enough plots going on, they do not need to keep adding bs stories.

It was the French maid?!

Boy, was I schooled!

I thought the gasp was how well it paid. I thought the mere part was rehearsed, but they were expecting a lower amount and the $40 had to be wrangled in.

R154, it’s not about the money per se. it’s about the standing. If Agnes can’t be a patron representing an historic family, she’s no one of importance in her society. But Oscar giving her the cottage to donate doesn’t just pay her back and restore his standing, it removes the suspicions about why HE has the cottage. I’m sure John Adams expected to be older when he died and then, as now, old people are ignored. But he died young so it’ll be the topic of a lot of gossip.

Was the gunman hired by Clay? An anarchist like in the Frick case? Or hired by Bertha, glad that her financial problems have been solved and preferring certain widowhood to possible divorce?

Gladys: The first LI Lolita

Bang, bang!

According to a US inflation calculator, $40 in 1884 equates to around $1300 today. Buying power and real income was probably stronger then too, so that money could go far.

R162, I think that back then two people from the same social class could get away with being “very close friends.”

Within the universe of the show it was scandalous enough that John Adams didn’t list Oscar in his will and instead left it to his sister to give to Oscar.

When they call John's cottage a cottage, is it a cottage like all the houses in Newport are cottages, grand fucking Mansions?

[quote] When they call John's cottage a cottage, is it a cottage like all the houses in Newport are cottages, grand fucking Mansions?

Probably not, at least not on that scale. The biggest and most stately Newport mansions (The Breakers, Rough Point, Ochre Point, Seaview Terrace) were on a ridiculously large scale because the actual new money families of the Gilded Age (the Vanderbilts, the Goelets, the Bradleys) were trying to outdo one another. They wouldn't have gone to somewhere like Livingston Manor which by then was not as fashionable.

Moreover, we've been told the show's John Adams is from the old Boston Brahmin family which also gave us the US presidents John Adams and John Quincy Adams. They were not new money, and so would not have wanted to live on that kind of ostentatious scale.

It's probably much, much larger than what you or I would ever call a cottage, but the fictional Bertha Russell or the real Alva Vanderbilt would likely think it was small.

Thank you r168. Illustrative.

Oh, I think the woman who played John's sister and the sceene she was in was another great moment in acting.

How much more could she have conveyed to Oscar that everyone in the family knew about John, and she was particularly fond of her brother, to the point that she was his in-family confidant and knew everything.

Agnes needs to have a talk with Nancy Adams Bell (Kate Baldwin).

She made me cry. She deserves an Emmy for guest artist.

r170, I agree Kate Baldwin was exvellent.

I keep hoping they'll bring in another excellent stage actress, Marin Ireland, for one of these parts. She played a one-shot small but crucial role in Feud: Capote vs. the Swans as the publisher Katherine Graham, Capote's guest of honor for his famous Black and White Ball, and she was the best thing in the whole miniseries, even though she appeared for only about two minutes.

Dene Benton posted a sweet comment on social about how they start every season thinking it will be the last and how thrilled everyone is that the current season is such a success and they've been renewed. I'm glad HBO gave it a chance and now it's paid off. Emmys for everybody!

And a special canine Emmy for Pumpkin.

r172 I recall creating the very first thread about this show on DL back in 2015 when Fellowes first announced his plans because it's my favourite period of American history, but there wasn't much interest in it. Even later in 2020 when it started production, the overall sentiment was that it would flop. This comment under an older Deadline article basically sums it up:

[quote]Good luck getting anyone under 90 to watch that.

And it's true it was briefly touch-and-go there after the first season and those early DL threads were brutally critical as well, but I'm so glad it has found its audience and is now thriving. The haters have moved on to something else, as they usually do.

Sorry, feeling a bit nostalgic after all the good news about the ratings, and the official subreddit I also helped set up gaining 10k members in like a week. There really is something to the rumour that the gay community's embrace of it made a difference back when its renewal looked bleak. Carry on!

Favorite!

It wasn’t exactly a high point in US History—1877-1910 left much to be desired.

Finale (Episode 8) Trailer.

It’s heartening that Clock Twink has a nice home. Excellent work by whoever built that set. He didn’t even look around much, he just trusted Marian.

And it looks like Clock Twink's got enough china, crockery and tchotchkes in that house to lure in a nice wife.

Some good things in this episode but also some really bad, namely the French maid as spy nothingburger.

But also all the lame drama of Marian breaking off her engagement to Larry based on utter hearsay when she's a smart liberal girl who empathizes with homosexuals. And she's been shown to be intimately close with AC Jack - who waited so long (how many months was Larry's trek to Arizona and back?) to inform her that nothing happened at the house of ill repute.

I doubt it was a "built" set; it's probably an actual historic house.

I know much of the van Rijn house is a built set and the Russell grand entrance hall.

Yes, wonderful seeing Kate Baldwin in that brilliant cameo as John Adams' sister. She had such a period look about her and was so affecting in her scene. I hope they find a way to bring her back.

I expect we'll see more and even bigger Broadway stars next season. How much do you wanna bet they bring in Bernadette Peters to play Lily Langtry?

Who played the woman trying to strongarm Agnes at the reception? She looked like a character actress from a century ago.

Lily Langtry wasn't 80 in the 1880s....

Marceline Hugot. Wonderful character actress

I was hoping Jack would have moved into a nice boarding house with Bernadette and the LuPone as the battling sisters who ran it.

Nathan Lane was funny in his Q & A with Vulture about the latest episode. He starts out by saying ‘Just my luck, I get written out when the show’s become a hit!’ And when he’s asked what it’s like to be hated (as his character) by some of the leading theatrical actresses of our day, he quips, ‘So what else is new?’

[quote] It’s heartening that Clock Twink has a nice home. Excellent work by whoever built that set. He didn’t even look around much, he just trusted Marian.

That house looked tired and dusty.

R187 I'm sure Jack will remove all that old bric a brac and paint all the walls grey, add pinspot lighting and some nice laminate flooring and smarten up the whole place for you!

R188, some track lighting would do. 💅🏼

Are you a Mark, Rick, or Steve, r189?

I loved the scene when Oscar angrily exploded at his family, a very rare moment of genuinely uncontrolled emotion in Julian Fellowes' world.

Chances are Jack’s house belonged to someone old. A house full of dead old guy’s stuff that nobody wants.

Ew.

Wait, does Nathan read DL? He mentioned Ahler as Clock Twink in his Vulture interview! Is that from some place else? Anyway, hi Nathan!

How many of you here have had their curiosity ignited, or their passion for history, of all sorts, reignited as a result of this show?

That’s the wonderful thing about series or film’s depicting period pieces, in they may spark an acquaintance or reacquainting with learning.

I had only superficially been knowledgeable about the tycoons of the 1800s in America, however, due to this series, I’ve delved deep into historical facts, in order to know more about how our country came to be.

Clock Twink’s new house is an interior from a house in Troy/Albany. R180 is right. They used a lot of Troy last night. The only exterior “set” is the street between the two main houses that was built on the old Empire Boardwalk set.

[quote]I expect we'll see more and even bigger Broadway stars next season. How much do you wanna bet they bring in Bernadette Peters to play Lily Langtry?

[quote]Lily Langtry wasn't 80 in the 1880s....

Never fear! I can step in for Bernadette.

No, R195. The TGA exterior 61st Street set is out in Old Bethpage on Long Island. The Boardwalk Empire set was built in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. I know this because I’ve worked on both.

Me, r194! I’ve been reading about old mansions and families and heiresses. I tried reading the McCallister book, but I couldn’t do it.

I read Matthew Josephson’s The Robber Barons when I was in high school. The industrialist heroes of the Gilded Age are very interesting.

Oh sorry, R197, an actor on the show told me it was the same location! Sorry!

Kathy Geiss!

“Clock Twink” migrated to DL from Louisa Jacobson’s Instagram. He was originally known here as Alarm Clock Jack.

[quote] The industrialist heroes of the Gilded Age are very interesting.

"Heroes"?

There's a reason why they were called robber barons...

The phrase Gilded Age is biting sarcasm, not hero worship

R194 YES! I go down Wikipedia rabbit holes during and after each episode. It's very fascinating.

I feel like there's something else going on with Agnes and this Livingston Manor/Heritage Society business -- beyond the "gifted" property that Agnes doesn't want too many questions about. Are Agnes & Ada descended from a bastard Livingston or something?

That was odd that Agnes wanted to get away from that discussion R206

Agree with you r206. That "heritage" lady seems very suspicious to me, and seems like some kind of 19th century gossip columnist or something, with some dirt she's ready to spring on everyone. Oscar would be the obvious target, but I do wonder if there is some other weird thing going on in the background.

I almost married a very prominent Livingston, one of the Boston Livingstons.

Those Dutch kept an eye on each other

Alarm Clock Jack's House:

A modest townhouse on Christopher Street would have been so much more suitable, Jack. Near the piers.

R199. We read it in AP American History in 1974. I ordered a copy when TGA began airing. I remember loving the book.

(And I got a 5 on theAP exam!)

[quote] (And I got a 5 on theAP exam!)

That reminds me that I got 790 points out of 800 on the College Board American History Achievement Test. There were only three questions on the exam I was unsure of. My high school didn’t offer AP for American History. Still, I was able to get a course credit in American History from my university by passing a special exam the History department gave me. I was interested in all of the time periods, but especially the years between the Civil War and WWI. Now I’ve forgotten the majority of what I used to know.

Yes, R194! Aside from a general interest about the time period (I majored in US History decades ago), the show renewed my curiosity about MY ancestors during that period -- what they were up to & how they lived -- and got me back into my genealogy/ancestry research after a long hiatus.

My father's ancestors were all Irish immigrants, arriving 1850-1860. Some settled in Brooklyn, the others went up the Hudson to Tarrytown & Poughkeepsie. One of my Brooklyn great-great grandmothers had a brother who had been a teacher in Ireland, but worked in the Brooklyn railroad yards after coming to the US. Thus, that minor story arc in S2 about the Brooklyn colored-school opening enrollment to white students & hiring white teachers -- particularly Irish teachers who couldn't get hired at white-schools -- resonated with me on a personal level. Not super-profoundly (Mary!)...but those are the kind of connections in your mind that bring history alive.

Similarly, I discovered that one my great-great grandfathers -- Cornelius, who settled in Tarrytown -- had been a florist in Ireland. He worked as a florist in Manhattan, briefly, upon entering the U.S. and then became John Jacob Astor III's head-groundskeeper/gardener at Astor's "Waldorf" estate in West Ulster, for 15 years. It afforded him the ability to purchase his own farm outside of Tarrytown, and his sons went on to start one of the more successful grocery store chains in the Hudson River Valley (stores in Albany, Poughkeepsie, Ossining & Peekskill).

Another thing I found in a newspaper article...Cornelius' eldest son, William (older brother of my great-grandfather, who had started the grocery store biz) was viciously attacked by Lloyd Aspinwall's dogs while walking along the railroad tracks that bordered Aspinwall's estate. William had to jump into the Hudson River to escape them. He was awarded $250 for lost income due to his injuries. A good deal of money in those days but still, I laughed thinking about how much larger that settlement would have been today....especially given who Lloyd Aspinwall was.

Call Morgan & Morgan.

R325 my dads’s high school job was mowing the lawn in Harvard Yard.

R215*

I was poking around the Internets looking for which Adams John might have been. It could have been George C. Adams, the son of John Quincy Adams II. He has limited data on Wiki, he died in 1900 at 37 from tuberculosis. He was a yachtsman, football coach at Harvard and later went into real estate. No spouse or children are mentioned. Gayface?

He looks like Gladys's husband.

r194, you might be interested in reading , "The Alienist" and "Angel of Darkness", which was written by a historian, Caleb Carr Shows both upper and lower classes with a mystery. They did an excellent tv series based upon it as well.

I looked up what $300,000 would be back then, and it was over $9 million today. The house that Clock Twink bought would have been between $2000-$10,000;

HIS NAME IS NOT FUCKING CLOCK TWINK.

The whole McAllister plot twist is very Truman Capote-ish, is it not?

[quote]HIS NAME IS NOT FUCKING CLOCK TWINK.

Ben Ahlers literally calls himself the clock twink, so that's settled.

[quote]“I’ve said this before, I’ll say it again: Evan Ross Katz changed my life,” says Ben Ahlers of the online creator, who anointed Ahlers’ “Gilded Age” character Jack as the “clock twink.” The moniker resurfaced earlier this week via Ahlers’ costar Louisa Jacobson in a post promoting the latest episode.

[quote]“It is definitely a different experience now. I’ve never been a meme. I’ll happily wear the crown of the clock twink,” Ahlers adds. “I do hesitate to say that I am 6’3”, so I don’t think that’s by definition a twink — but I’ll happily roll with it if people are willing to give me a pass. I love how obsessed and excited people get about coming up with the new fun thing. We’ve got Morgan Spector as ‘railroad daddy’ and [me as] ‘clock twink,’ so that’s great company for me.”

R223. No. Absolutely not.

Truman’s career twist was very McAllister-ish. FIFY

Clock Twink

Railroad Daddy

Trust-fund Bottom

What could we call Larry?

[quote] What could we call Larry?

Guilded New Money Twink

Copper Twink

—duh

Nepo Nancy

Guilded New Money Twink

Oh, Dear!

ElderLez @ r229, I am changing Oscar to that.

Clock Twink

Railroad Daddy

Copper Twinkl

Nepo Nancy

Typo

Copper Twink ^^^

Twink is taken.

Copper Otter?

As far as we know, Oscar is not a stockbroker due to his family connections to Wall St. He does not deserve “Nepo” Larry may, but he has already established his value with Jack and the copper find.

I think Nepo should be reserved for untalented people given opportunities they would not otherwise get and do not deserve. Brooklyn Beckham is my prototype.

Applying the term to everyone whose family has money says more about the person using the word than it does about their targets.

R235 My objection is "nancy", which is an older homophobic pejorative.

I thought his scene with the mom, aunt, cousin.... where he just let his "truth" and sadness out, was one of the best of the whole series. The acting by all four was affecting.

Doctor Snack

prospector (prospecting) papa

R236, the scenes with Oscar were so good because they involved emotions that couldn’t be fully spelled out. The actors had to convey unspoken meaning. Usually Fellowes thinks that he has to explain everything to the audience.

This is a subject Fellowes arguably knows nothing about. Homosexual relationships.

Well, keep talking because after Sunday we will have a year and a half to keep interested before Season 4 debuts.

[quote]Ben Ahlers literally calls himself the clock twink, so that's settled.

I don't give a shit what Ben Ahlers calls his character. He probably calls him Clock Twink because he has not heard Alarm Clock Jack, which is clearly superior in every way. If he heard it, he would use. But he hasn't, so he doesn't.

It's ALARM CLOCK JACK.

Fuck off, R242, you’re being tiresome.

R240, I... wouldn't be so sure about that.

(Haven't heard any gossip, it's just the vibe I get.)

[quote] Alarm Clock Jack's House:

Gretchen, stop trying to make "Alarm Clock Jack" happen!

It's not going to happen!

[quote] One funny thing last night when the Scooby Doo Servants were confronting Frenchie the Maid was one of them gasping, "you did this for a mere $40?!?!?"

[quote] Uh, $40 was a LOT of money in 1884. And, since she'd been leaking her tittle tattle for months, the Frenchie Maid must have quite a lot of money put away. No one of that class would poo poo $40.

But it's Julian Fellowes! Of course the servants are positively horrorstruck that one of their fellow peasants would dare betray their mistress!

I adore ALARM CLOCK JACK but I'm confused why he needs that huge of a house.

But, that's Uncle Julian being grand as usual. His plots and characters are never logical.

Because, society. He's not a man of means if he lives in a garrett.

R248 Why would Alarm Clock Jack care about that? He just wants to work on new inventions. But Uncle Julian is determined to make him "part of Society" when in reality, such a character would have zero interest in that.

Agree r249. And I think I lost a comment somehow, but roughly, I think given that Jack is going to have a few servants, and also some space to invent and maybe even an office to meet potential clients, I'm guessing the space he has won't seem all that extravagant. But I agree, I hope Julian doesn't plan on having him trying to become some big shot in "society" and think that's some kind of triumph.

R248: Respectable apartments were just beginning to be constructed. The Dakota was under construction.

R248 I beg your pardon

r250, I believe that Tesla found it all amusing, as he gave back the electricity royalties on the Westinghouse dynamos.

It'll be hokey, but I think I'm going to enjoy when Alarm Clock Jack has to hire servants. He's never been on that side of the transaction before, and it'll be fun to see him think, what did they ask me? What do I want? What am I supposed to want?

Hoping both Marian and Larry help out.

Would Marian or Larry have been involved in hiring servants themselves?

Maybe Bannister could help him.

Actually, that's a good point ElderLez. I mean, did Marian's disgraced father have servants? I'm guessing at least a couple. If so, I suspect she might have helped out in choosing them. As for Larry, yeah, not sure he'd be involved. I just kind of want him there for moral support. I suppose his mother would be more useful, but I can't imagine her caring.

Weirdly, old Ward McAllister would probably be the best one. He probably knows just what the perfect cook and the perfect maid should be, but, um, he's distracted and also, might want favors.

The Clock Twink is going to be lonely.

R254, Jack, having been a servant, is in an ideal position when in comes to hiring them. He knows how a house runs and what people really have to do. He’d also be more likely to spot anyone who’s lying.

That is true r258. I do wonder how he'll be as a boss, or really master. I mean, he really is a nice guy, clearly, but he also knows when somebody is slacking and really could be doing more, cause he did it, and I think was pretty conscientious. But also knows what a pain it all can be, and maybe let somebody have a break here and there.

I am actually looking forward to that new dynamic for him.

I would think there'd be something suitable for AC Jack in all of Manhattan between a mansion and a garret.

A small townhouse with rooms for his shop/studio and to house a couple of servants. Probably an older married couple would do, as housekeeper/cook and butler/valet, with a charwoman and extra man coming in daily or as needed for the heavy lifting.

Jack would probably join a young men's club where he could happily dine nightly. I don't really get why they haven't given him a love interest. The maid at the Van Rijn's is adorable and would make a perfect Mrs. AC Jack.

This notion that he'd want to join high society is pure British/Fellowes nonsense.

Probably because if he doesn't play a role in high society, he won't have a role in the narrative. Jesus, some of you are dense.

No, r261. It is perfectly possible for a series like this to deal with somebody who isn't in high society and never will be. That should be the easiest thing if Julian weren't such a lazy bitch. There are all sorts of ways for the upper and lower classes and middle classes to interact without everybody trying to desperately claw their way into the upper class.

In fact, he'd be a nice counter to the dingbat idea that everybody has to be either top or bottom and nothing in between.

What amazes me is that servants in this time period had lives of drudgery. It was a very hard life and yet there's not one servant in either house who ever seems to break a sweat and they all have so much free time, it's hilarious.

And they all have such pretty uniforms and glamorous wigs.

No, R262, the point is that Jack has to continue interacting with the existing characters. The show will never develop a whole subset of supporting characters just for him. There's certainly room to explore different levels and sources of wealth within this setting, but if Jack is content to live a middling, uncomplicated life, he has no place in the narrative.

It never shows the servants being beaten.

I think you're right r263. I don't much see that here or remember from Downton Abbey the misery and the drudgery and the sheer manual labor of it all. I kind of remember some of that in Upstairs Downstairs, at least sometimes a sense of going through all those damn rooms, dusting, and starting fires, and washing clothes, and beating rugs, and making beds and all that, which may not seem all that tough once in awhile, but all day, every day must have added up to just a ton of work and not a lot of time to get it all done.

Don't forget Gosford Park---that was probably much more accurate in its presentation of work and Julian was part of it. Clearly, he's better at soap opera and has no understanding of the understairs world. Gosford may have benefited from having Eileen Atkins (who co-wrote Upstairs, Downstairs and came from people who had been in service). Atkins was considered for a variety of roles in Gosford, but ultimately cast rather late in the process.

R268 Gosford Park is good because of Altman and his technique of using the script as a framework for what he creates with the actors. The majority of those words that came out of the actor's mouths weren't from Fellowes who is, at best, a lucky hack.

Upstairs Downstairs had one of the servants commit suicide and another kidnap a baby. There was some acknowledgement of the effect a life of service where one had to 'know their place' had on mental health.

When Jack says he will stay on as a servant because this is the only family he ever had it seemed like an inauthentic fantasy on the author's part. The USA at that time was all about people striking out on their own to build a life.

I assumed he was an orfling and probably still quite young.

And Jack has the equivalent of $9,000,000 to strike out and build a new life! Ridiculous to think he'd want to remain at the Van Rijn's as a footman all his life. He can afford to buy the brownstone next door if wants it.

r265, and yet....Fellowes introduces us to new characters with their silly little subplots in every episodes. Just this week we had Kate Baldwin as John Adams' tender-hearted sister, Leslie Uggams as a gossipy rich bitch and Marceline Hugot as that heavyset elder woman who seemed to be threatening Mrs. Astor with innuendo.

I think they can afford to showcase Jack among his non-Van Rijn peers every now and then. Frankly, Ben Ahlers is one of their few young breakout stars and clearly a fan fave - give him some extra time.

I like that Clock Twink is already working on other designs. For his next invention, he will have more than enough money to start production of it himself and start a company that will make him even richer. The first electric mixer came out in 1885…

He has to be in the kitchen environs to test and be inspired. I don't think I've ever seem any of the owners of the houses be in the kitchens.

r273, he may be a prototype for Waring or Westinghouse...

Alarm Clock Jack will become....

Vibrator Jack!!!!

Agnes will have her first orgasm in decades!

Ticktock Twink!

The interest in the Clock Twink this season will lead to him having a bigger role next season.

My family has refused to have a female orgasm since my great, great aunt had that unfortunate incident with Benedict Arnold, r276, and I do not intend to break that record!

R276 it’s too late!

I was hoping for a shot of Adams lying in state, but they couldn't get rid of Elder fast enough apparently.

Oh, man, I wanted to see Oscar's "Black Woman at a Funeral" moment

You missed him describing him being in the back row of the service.

[quote]The interest in the Clock Twink this season will lead to him having a bigger role next season.

Hope so. He's such an endearing character.

[quote]I was poking around the Internets looking for which Adams John might have been. It could have been George C. Adams, the son of John Quincy Adams II. He has limited data on Wiki, he died in 1900 at 37 from tuberculosis. He was a yachtsman, football coach at Harvard and later went into real estate. No spouse or children are mentioned. Gayface.

If it was him., he was GORGEOUS. And packing! Click to enlarge.

Another photo of Georgie...

I'm about twenty minutes into last Sunday's episode.

Loved the Oscar breakdown.

Also, the series has made me finally understand why Cynthia Nixon is a working actress. She's phenomenal when she's not playing Miranda.

They Haymarket was the Studio 54 of the 1890s. Like 54 people from all walks of life, were admitted. Women were available for a price and, if you were a man who wanted another man, you would simply go to the back door, which is not only fitting but hilarious.

Nice find r285! Vintage cutie!

r285 Those "rocks" look weird, like an ancient monolith that's fallen to the side. Surely that's not a natural formation?

Ah yes. The famous Fallen Ancient Monoliths of Beverly Farms, MA. I knew them well. Obscure, but worth a day trip. I believe the area is now a Dunkin parking lot, sadly.

Things that would vastly improve TGA:

1) Getting rid of Uncle Julian and hiring an actually talented writer/show runner.

2) Winnowing down that cast, or at least the main cast who get plotlines (looking at you, Russell servants).

3) HBO giving them 10 or 12 episodes a season to properly tell stories.

I'm finally catching up with season 3 (on episode 7) but am not caught up on the season 3 thread, so forgive any redundancy, but the acting in this show is NOT GOOD, with few exceptions.

If you want to drive yourself mad with annoyance, start noticing every time someone gestures vaguely with wide, open hands, either to the side or in front. It happens all the time, by men and women, black and white, in all emotional contexts. ESPECIALLY Marian and CHURCH, who reminds me of the lone boy actor to join the high school drama club who therefore is given every major male role regardless of his talent. He acts like a teenager playing an old man.

Also notice how Cynthia Nixon smiles all the time while talking, with pleading eyes (and often the wide, open hands). It's absolutely stupid. And her voice has become grating.

I like the performances of Aurora Fane, Mrs. Astor, Mr. Russell, Oscar (this season only), AC Jack, Mrs. Bauer, the Van Rhijns' chef, and even Gladys, who's grown on me this season despite her 30-year-old frown lines. A few others are good, too. Larry Russell is fine. The Van Rhijn's housekeeper looks kind of simian.

This season is better than last, I have to say. It's held my interest more, beyond just the clothes and houses this time. And, Ah-say, Ah-say, thank God Ward is gone

I meant to type "Van Rhijns' housekeeper."

Julianne Nicholson would have been a far better Bertha than Carrie Coon. There, I typed it.

I do love Carrie Coon.. I really do. I just don’t believe her as Bertha.

Yeah, it's been said many times over the threads but Carrie Coon, much as I love her, is just dreadful as Bertha. The voice, the physical stature, are just not there. She's even missing a sexuality which I think might have made the character more interesting. I don't think she's right for historically set dramas.

As for Cynthia Nixon's constant simpering smiling as Ada, I couldn't agree more with the above poster. And Christine Baranski's withering line readings are dime store Maggie Smith impersonations (and those teenaged modern bangs on her forehead!).

In general, most of the actors are trying too hard to put on an aristocratic air that just doesn't feel real....or American, even 1880s American. It's the actors who speak more simply like Morgan Spector and Kelli O'Hara that work better for me.

Clock Twink is perfect.

For Oscar, what about Sad Gay?

One thing I'd have to say about the series is - if you can believe the plethora of videos and photos the cast all post on set, it looks like like they're all having the time of their lives. I'm sincerely happy for all those theater actors who are making some extra good money and getting some TV exposure.

Carrie Coon galumphing down the stairs says it all....

Welp. Tomorrow tells t he tale. So what do you predict will happen if George Russell dies? I mean for the future next season? And what do you predict if George Russell lives for next season? I think he will hang on by a thread and he will live., but next year attention shifts slightly to the next generation. Oscar, Larry, Marian, Peggy and her Doctor. Of course if Peggy and the Doctor break up tomorrow they can get Rashad and all the rest of his family off the payroll. Gladys will certainly come home for a few months. Thus saving location money and fewer appearances by her Dewk and his sister.

It’s true, R298, my Insta page is full of laughing actors in costume, behind the scenes and on the set. There was a funny video today of cast members in costume dancing on one of the sets. Taissa Farmiga was managing some good moves despite the strictures of her costume.

The Gilded Age Season 3 Funniest Behind The Scenes and Bloopers

I think George will live. This story is The Gilded Age and without the Robber Barons and their money, there would be no mansions or "gilding." Everyone is affected. LIVE, GEORGE! Here's what I think is going to happen. George will live but he will have a long recovery. While he recovers he will reflect on his life and his family. His marriage, his kids, etc. And he will decide that Bertha has to go. He will want a divorce. Bertha OTOH, will realize how much she loves George and will beg and plead and apologize...all for naught. Larry and Marian will patch things up and marry. While George is recovering, Bertha hosts the Newport Ball, and someone flirts with her. She is pleasantly surprised at the attention. So the shocker t his season finale, is George telling Bertha he wants a divorce. I'll wager a dollar...my standard bet.

I have to say, I'm more and more Team Bertha. Yes, she's ambitious, as is George and increasingly Larry. And as she points out, social power and business power can actually go hand in hand, and instead of whining about it all, maybe they could all work together to benefit themselves.

As for her big "unforgivable sin" of marrying her daughter to a Duke, well, shit. It's not like he threw her in a dungeon or has started to beat her or tell her to shut up about anything. Nope, he's actually siding with her against his sister, letting her expand her role in running the estate, treating her with respect and lately getting more affectionate. Oh, the horror of it all! What a ruined life by her cold-hearted mother!

And in fact, starting to wonder if she's the one who's going to start wondering if maybe another rich, very ambitious man might be more in synch with her, while George recovers (yeah, I don't think he's dead either) and her son makes a tedious marriage to the neighbor girl and they start having extremely boring arguments cause prisspot can't stop agonizing about stupid shit.

[quote] Gladys will certainly come home for a few months. Thus saving location money and fewer appearances by her Dewk and his sister.

The scenes set at Sidmouth Castle are filmed in the USA.

We all saw the gun pointed directly at George's heart and yet he somehow survives the bullet?

Of course George will live. We see the ball happens. Even Bertha wouldn’t host a ball just after her husband was murdered.

George and Bertha are the stars so unless Morgan Spector is trying to leave the show he'll stick around.

R308, Dan Stevens was the star of Downton Abbey. Matthew and Lady Mary were central to the early seasons.

Great point r309!

Also, let’s not forget that Lady Sybil was a very popular character and was killed off.

The name "Carrie Coon" just seems wrong to me. I'm waiting for Ryan Murphy to come out with a series called "The Gelded Age" about a choir of castrati.

R307, I can picture her justifying it with "it's what George would have wanted".

Is DL even ready for today's finale? One last Coon for the road!

They really should do a Christmas special as well. I don't even care if it's sloppily put together.

After tonight, it'll be eighteen months till the next season (judging by previous years). This show started in January 2022 (so long ago we were still wearing masks) and tonight's episode will only be the twenty-fifth.

And yet it feels like it's been trudging on forever.

That's why I purposefully put in the caveat "unless Morgan Spector is trying to leave the show," r309 and r310. Both Dan Stevens (Matthew Crawley) and Jessica Brown Findlay (Lady Sybil) wanted to leave "Downton Abbey," which is why they were written out of the show.

Fellowes's model for George's assassination attempt was the shooting in 1892 of the robber baron Henry Clay Frick in his Pittsburgh office, and he was up and walking (and at work!) just a few days after being shot. So I think it is pretty likely George will survive his shooting.

I miss the old assembly-line production approach to series television. Knots Landing would pump out 30 episodes a season and the majority of them were more compelling, better acted and written than this self-important shit.

[quote]I do love Carrie Coon.. I really do. I just don’t believe her as Bertha.

This has been my problem all along.

Last week's episode was another increase in viewership.

Not sure they will want to change anything with those numbers, even though DL has issues.

Yet, people on DL have been watching and bitching since the first episode.

The new people who just started watching and "just love it!" can fuck the fuck off.

[quote]That's why I purposefully put in the caveat "unless Morgan Spector is trying to leave the show," [R309] and [R310]. Both Dan Stevens (Matthew Crawley) and Jessica Brown Findlay (Lady Sybil) wanted to leave "Downton Abbey," which is why they were written out of the show.

Several reports from early August 2025 indicate that Morgan Spector's contract for "The Gilded Age" has not ybeen renewed for another season, yet.

So, it is possible we're going the way of the Crawleys.

It would be stupid of him to leave the show, if it's his choice. It's not like he has much going on his career other than TGA. He's hunky but well into his 40s and not much of an actor.

If it's Uncle Julian dumping him, that's also dumb. The show has too few male characters as it is. Dumping Railroad Daddy would be foolish of them.

And, R306, that was a big ass gun. More like a rifle.

I really hope they begin tonight's episode by giving us a recap of the shooting scene from a proper angle and let us see that bullet miss George's heart if we're to believe he survives. Honestly, what nonsense! Even Falcon Crest respected their audience more than this.

I'm interested to see how they handle Aurora Fane's divorce. I wonder why he wants one. Back then, didn't the wealthy simply live separately? The mistress must want to be part of society.

Since her husband was almost ruined without George, I wonder who George will side with.

Bertha has shown a great deal of loyalty to people who've helped her. It'll be interesting to see how Bertha treats the mistress.

I thought it was firmly established by "historical etiquette experts" here that a divorced man would be no more welcome in high society than a divorced woman, much less with his mistress.

Oh sure, details about every other facet of the Russell's life has leaked to the press but he can be shot in secret . . .

Shit is intense tonight but very well acted. George was very believable when he went into shock and started shaking.

Looks like Oscar found a beard.

WHERE'S the recaps?!?!?

I'll post the first spoiler:

It's not in Spanish this week!

I found a recap.

Meh.

Having Dr Kirkland save George's life was a great idea. Didn't see that coming.

I have a feeling Carrie Coon had a bit of trouble delivering the line “You’re very welcome here, Aurora.” That’s a shitload of Rs.

This series is certainly beautiful to look at but I don't feel emotionally attached in any way.

Another rare sighting of Pumpkin in this episode. Pumpkin always seems so chill in Oscars lap.

[quote] I miss the old assembly-line production approach to series television. Knots Landing would pump out 30 episodes a season and the majority of them were more compelling, better acted and written than this self-important shit.

Yes, nothing could ever compare to the excellence of Knots Landing. Quality television at its finest.

I was really hoping and kinda expecting the last shot would be of AC Jack and the pretty young maid in his bed together.

Again, Uncle Julian doesn't do "sex".

The writing in this last episode was even worse than it's been all season. Every problem, every issue, every emergency......everything.....is introduced in one scene only to be conveniently resolved 2 or 3 scenes later.

I was wondering if Bertha's Newport ball would turn into the Moldavian massacre.

If only.....

Not enough Cythia Nixon and Christine Baranski!

Clock Twink looked like a Tim Burton puppet tonight, like Ichabod Crane or Pumpkin Head from a Halloween story.

I’m intrigued by Oscar hooking up with Mrs Russell’s ex-maid. But that cynical relationship only works if the balance of power is equal and there is mutually assured destruction if their respective secrets are revealed. As yet she has nothing on him. He knows about her past, will he confess to her that he’s ‘that way’ if she hasn’t already guessed as much?

I enjoyed the Cinderella ball as the season wrap-up to Peggy’s story. Thought the pale colors and pastels of the ladies gowns in this sequence were a lot prettier (and more period accurate) than the garish, acid-y colors of the women’s gowns at Mrs Russell’s ball. Were they making a point about rhe vulgarity of ‘pravenus’ and new people at Mrs Russell’s?

I thought George suddenly turning cold toward his wife at the end contradicted their last couple of earlier scenes. But then I realized they’re doing a Scarlett/Rhett thing where he thinks she’s a cold bitch and leaves her at which time she realizes she’s madly in love with him and would die without him. What will she do to win him back?

Not sure what to think about Larry’s new hardness toward Marian. He has a point, so why didn’t she promise she wouldn’t distrust him in future? Why are they starting from square one? Will Larry take a few too many pages from his father’s book on business etiquette and will this be a bone of contention with Marian, who’d like to get a mensch for a husband?

I’m already predicting Gladys’ baby will end up dying in infancy. And Gladys has to be committed to a sanitarium.

Clock Twink resembles Pete Campbell from early Mad Men seasons.

This show is such junk.

I enjoyed the finale. The scene of Peggy seeing her beau in slow motion was beautiful. Also the editing between the two balls was flawless and magical.

Agree that the Larry - Marian resolution was a bit odd. They had a minor misunderstanding, it was no where as serious as Peggy's situation, but Peggy's beau got over the shock quickly. Larry may not be good enough for Marian, but he is a Russell so no surprise.

The Donna Murphy of it all was great for theatrics. I loved her entrance at the ball.

Sad Gay and Slut Maid seem perfect for each other. Greasy grifters.

It was nice they threw Agnes a bone with a VP job, whatever that is.

Happy for Gladys, but poor Bertha left alone at the end was pure bosom heaving dramatics. The men bonding against her seems sexist and mean. Oh, well, I'm sure she'll recover. See you in 2026.

I've never understood why Mrs. Winterton, the former ladies maid, wasn't immediately exposed as a fraud by Bertha (or even her servants) the minute she tried to enter society. Am I forgetting something? Did Mrs. W have something over Bertha that gave her power?

And what kind of an idiot and awful father is George Russell that he doesn't see that Gladys is rapturously happy in the marriage Bertha "forced" on her?

r350: 2026? HA!

More like 2027... [italic]if then!![/italic]

I thought it was because they both agreed to be quiet about Slut Maid hitting on her husband.

R347If Gladys is the fictional version of the Duchess of Marlborough, then she will have two sons, and she and her husband will be affectionate friends who go their separate ways. Consuelo will become a suffragette and so will Alva, her mother. So watch out. Bertha is going to divorce George, remarry and raise hell. it would be nice if GA would depart from the real history and allow George and Bertha to patch things up and stay together. Wobert, the Earl of Grantham, and his Cora did. I do think George and Bertha are very much suited to one another. George's ego is bruised because she outmaneuvered him with Hector, and he hated losing face with his daughter on her wedding day. Now that Gladys seems happy, it makes Bertha seem like she's the smarter one and he needs to get over himself. OTOH, I get it. Bertha is never going to change. If he wants a strong smart partner in his marriage, than he also has to take the consequences. Of course he could hook up with Aurora. Now wouldn't that be something.

I will state once again, HBO you hired top notch costume designers for this series. Give them a raise.

R352, I think Bertha sized Hector up early on and realized Gladys could handle him. She just needed to help Gladys realize that.

R351, Bertha doesn't want anyone to find out about it. Especially now that the widow is filthy rich.

Bertha is a terrible name. My grandmother's sister was named that and I told her she was lucky being given the name Lillian which is no great shakes.

I thought the season finale was fine until the last scene. The writing in that last scene felt tacked on with a hasty "we've been renewed!" vibe. Very poor writing at the end, it negated the entire episode.

Seeing Mama Rose put Mrs. Huxtable in her place was delicious.

Lordy, I’m going to miss this show! Yes, I rolled my eyes many times tonight, but it sure was a lot of fun to watch.

Does anyone else think the rich Black ladies all have prettier dresses than the moneyed white women? That dress Marian had on was ugly as shit.

I wanted Madame Rose to slap the shit out of Mrs. Huxtable.

George Russell seems to have become a Laudanum addict. The camera lingered a little too long on that label on the medicine bottle.

The young actor who plays the clock twink is gay.

[quote] Seeing Mama Rose put Mrs. Huxtable in her place was delicious.

***waits a few moments***

I have absolutely nothing to say on that matter.

***stares out the window***

Look at those people, walking around all by themselves in the park... LOSERS!

Have you noticed it's NEVER any other season other than a vague springy/summer in the Julian Fellowes Multiverse?

Uncle Julian doesn't do sex and he doesn't do winter.

Some sort of twist needs to be added to the next season.

Agree r360. It was quite jarring how George just reverted to his old attitude despite 1) his almost dying, 2) Bertha’s now supporting Larry’s marriage and 3) Gladys’s being happy. What exactly is he mad at Bertha for?

I think Alarm Clock Jack is dreamy.

R368 Winter (with snow) was featured this season.

Yeah. For a nano second.

It was a really stupid scene, too.

It was stated in the episode that saving George was “miraculous”, but miracles have been ridiculously happening in this show since the beginning. Everything comes up roses. It’s like in this show Julian has decided he’s never going to have a Lady Edith situation again, where fans lamented how often she was hurt.

Rashad brought so much to this season. She's really a wonderful actress as opposed to Audra who you can see ACTING every time.

R372, Lady Mary & Matthew got engaged in snowfall.

Loved it R338.

More pumpkin next season. Maybe they can get a puppy to get pumpkin company and hilarity ensues.

My wife asked me to ask you how much you think the Russels gave Dr. Kirkland.

Also we’ve been watching Ripley and the shot they show whenever Tom is taking the train immediately brings me to the intro of GA. Anyone else struck by the resemblance?

Railroad daddy: “You forced Gladys to marry! I cannot abide that disregard of the daughter I adore.” Leaves. Daughter enters. “I’m with babe! Let’s tell railroad grand daddy!” Cue distant horse step. Mama Machiavelli runs to the window to see that George has already left and failed to say goodbye to the daughter HE took to the church & walked down the aisle. Fade to tears. Cut to black & credits.

If the plot continues to mirror real life, Bertha and Larry will divorce and she will go on to build more architectural monuments while spearheading the suffragette movement. And Gladys will birth an heir and a spare before leaving the Duke for her true love.

Too much to hope for, but I would like to have learned that Larry was spending all this time not at the club but at Clock Twink’s new house.

I was shocked the episode didn't end with a closeup of Bertha, eyes heavenward, saying: "I'll think about that tomorrow."

I think he gave the equivalent of $100,000.

R346, Oscar tells her that their relationship will be one of appearances and that they will lead separate private lives. I think that's clear enough.

Peggy's story proves that there's a reason hackneyed stories hang around. It's all a fairytale but the actors made you want to believe it.

What kind of bullet fired at point blank range nestles just under the skin and goes no further?

A Fellowes slug.

Actually I think George gave Dr. Kirkland about $100,000 and that's the equivalent of about $3 million in today's money. I loved the aside , " I've handled a lot of gunshot wounds."

My analysis of the problem George has with Bertha is this. His ego was damaged because she outmaneuvered him. There he was telling Gladys he would handle things and he would let her marry for love, etc. and in his own mind he failed her. Walking her down the aisle weeping in front of all NYC society, was a sort of humiliation for him. The shot of him being upset while Bertha was sitting there weeping tears of joy said it all. And don't forget, he asked her, "Are you telling me everything?" and she said yes. A lie, especially when the Duke shows up with his lawyer. Then he has to pledge that ridiculous amount of money as Gladys's dowery at the very moment his entire fortune and his business is in deep trouble fighting for survival.

At the end when he said he admired Bertha's ruthlessness, he probably did, but he felt she had directed it at him. His ego was crushed by her. Bertha doesn't like to lose. She is very competitive, and she went too far. Actually I noticed a distance in George as he was recovering. I thought he played that very well. He didn't have the energy to argue, but I got the sense something was off with them. that Laudanum bottle was scary. It is a signal for one of next season's plotlines.

R384. The clothes back then were so well made; maybe it was the fabric and layers that cushioned the shot a bit (I know nothing about guns…or clothes.)

Clearly

A bullet is not going to be stopped at close range by a layer of wool twill, a silk brocade waistcoat and a starched cotton shirt front. Clearly, George wasn't wearing his long johns underneath.

The bullet was small and didn't splinter. Didn't the doctor say it just missed the left ventricle? I think, from the way George was standing he may have moved unconsciously so he was more sideways and that helped him.

I totally bought Bertha's change of heart regarding Marian. She liked her but thought she was weak. When she saw Marian jump in and help save George she saw her strength and changed her opinion.

[quote] If the plot continues to mirror real life, Bertha and Larry will divorce

Real life must have been very surprising, since Bertha is Larry's mother.

R390, I did too. I think at first Bertha just assumed that as a member of the Van Rijn household Marian was just like the rest of the Old Guard. When she said, "I saw you through Larry's eyes!" That was a huge compliment. I think Bertha was also beginning to appreciate Marian as she befriended Gladys. Also, I think t here is a practical side of Bertha and a strategic side to her definitely. She'd have made a hell of a politician or a general!

The bullet was visible through the clothes and did not penetrate very far. I suppose the most rational explanation is that it was stopped by a rib, but that seems extremely unlikely. And if it had been stopped, it would be deformed, not pristine. Ribs do not stop bullets fired at close range. No, the real explanation is lazy, lazy, lazy writing to create a few moments of unearned suspense.

Amanda Peet was the original choice for Bertha. I love Peet but I don't think she would have been as effective as Carrie Coon. And I was not a fan at first. But she's grown tremendously in the role and I can imagine anyone else playing it. She was also great in White Lotus.

Ugh, cannot imagine Peet in this. She’s so bland and one-note. They dodged a bullet.

That ball, well the white one, would have been so much more interesting if it really was half-empty, and definitely without the presence of Mrs. Astor. It would have shown that there really was still an old guard and not just a group of paper tigers. Bertha keeps triumphing (at least in society, if not at home) but what the hell is she triumphing over. Everyone seems to surrender immediately and Bertha gets to decide everything for society with a snap of her fingers.

That kinda should be Mrs. Astor's role, but of course they've long forgotten what the hell they're doing with her.

[quote] When she said, "I saw you through Larry's eyes!" That was a huge compliment.

And quite an erotic one!

Yes, Mrs. Astor’s last-minute capitulation was just more lazy writing.

r396, you're completely right. But Fellowes and the HBIO procuers are trying to market the hell out of this show by adding Hallmark movie elements, so they bring in all kinds of bizarre anachronisms to up the viewing pleasure of hausfraus watching this show in Boise. Dr. Kirkland's proposing to Peggy in front of Blakc society at the Newport ball (on the ballroom floor, no less!) is a classic example--in reality, that would never have happened because (unlike today) it would have been considered humiliatingly public for Peggy and Kirkland both, but the show's producers wanted a romantic fairy-tale moment for them.

In Mrs. Astor's case, the problem is that the audience is expecting to see Bertha as a (problematic) hero, so every storyline is invested in Bertha winning and winning in her social games--she almost never suffers a setback. So Mrs. Astor is crafted as this perennial loser on the show.

[quote]she almost never suffers a setback

Which is, of course, why the season's ending scenes were so... poignant. Bertha "wins" and then loses the love of her husband. Hanging out the window watching her husband's coach hurry away from her.

Also: the weird thing about the real Mrs. Astor was that she enjoyed the social position she did because she was such an anomaly. She was born into one of the great Old Knickerbocker aristocratic families, the Schermerhorns, and married a spectacularly wealthy key son of the Astor clan, so she had much more money than most of the women in the old Knickerbocker families did, and she had Ward McAllister as her manipulator pushing her forward. Most of the members of the other old families (the Van Rensselaers, the Stuyvesants, the Livingstons) were still huge civic leaders but were less "party-mad" than Caroline Astor, and she had the odd luck to be both obsessed with socializing and especially wealthy (she had married into the wealthiest of the old fmailies at the time, the Astors) and was born into an unimpeachably connected family.

But she grew into full maturity along right when the new money families--the Vanderbilts, the Goelets, the Oelrichses--were trying to get into society, and so she decided to become a gatekeeper. It worked for her whole life, although she did have to suffer some setbacks like the loss of the old Academy of Music (depicted last season) and having to go to Alva Vanderbilt's daughter's debutante ball so her favorite daughter, Carrie, could be invited (as depicted in the first season).

But she still reigned unquestioned until the mid 1890s, and by then she was too old to give balls anymore, and died soon after. At that time a trio of women, "The Triumvirate." ruled NYC society, and two of them were from the new money families (Alva Vanderbilt and Tessie Oelrichs)--only one (Mamie Fish) was old money (she was born a Stuyvesant).

I need Dr. Kirkland to propose to me, so I can blow him in the ballroom bathroom.

Then he can be deep inside me!!

R396 and R399 the whole premise, I think, is to show that you cannot swim against the tides, and the "new people" are eclipsing the old. Even Agnes and Ada were there and it seems like they rarely go anywhere. IMO the fact that they soften up Mrs. Astor was the lazy writing part. Her conversation with her daughter was pure bullshit. Uncle Julian's bullshit. Because the reality is that if Mrs. Astor had not attended that ball, she would have been over. She would have harmed herself and her ability to influence High Society. Maybe Oscar was blowing smoke up Bertha's ass with his flattery, but in a way he was predicting the future and the realities that the Berthas were going to surpass the Mrs. Astors.

[quote] I think, is to show that you cannot swim against the tides, and the "new people" are eclipsing the old. Even Agnes and Ada were there and it seems like they rarely go anywhere.

Which basically kills the entire premise of the series, and sends it straight to tiresome fraudom, where the only conflicts are internal family conflicts, and whether twue wuv will win the day and lead to the big beautiful wedding and the boring meaningless marriage.

They made it too easy and in that way made it all too stupid for Bertha to have any real triumphs. They should have stuck to the original plan, an Old Guard that is not willing to admit its own demise just yet, and can still at times assert itself. It's funny to think, but this is all set BEFORE the famous Four Hundred, when Mrs. Astor and Ward McAllister decided who was and was not really in society. I don't mind playing with the timeline, but they've effectively blown up the timeline and made it all meaningless.

[quote]It’s like in this show, Julian has decided he’s never going to have a Lady Edith situation again

May I introduce you to Peggy…

The difference with Peggy, forced marriage, dead baby, annulled marriage, her own business, BANANA!, and untold truths to her suitor is that

Bertie Hexam did not have a cunt for a mother. Who knows, Elisabeth Kirkland may come around, but it will be too late.

Peggy isn't going to get any lighter, you know.

[quote]Real life must have been very surprising, since Bertha is Larry's mother.

omg. George, I meant George....

[quote] Peggy isn't going to get any lighter, you know.

Well, maybe if she tried a little harder.

R404 I think the financial side, the business parts are interesting too. I'm learning a lot about the Vanderbilts and Frick and Gould and Morgan and the social dynamics are woven in to the history of the financial legends.

^^^LOVE the Frick Museum and the MORGAN^^^

I do too r409. I know some posters are turned off by that, and hate all the "railroad" scenes but I'm always a little curious where all the money for all these balls and gowns and houses actually comes from.

You don’t touch the Morgan letters!

The “economic history” displayed in this series is laughable; the writers have no clue.

[quote] Because the reality is that if Mrs. Astor had not attended that ball, she would have been over. She would have harmed herself and her ability to influence High Society.

That's not true. They would have bought her excuse she was ill even if they knew what her real reason for refusing was.

I don't understand the casting of Carrie Coons as Bertha Russell. I understand she's supposed to be ruthless and she is. But her one-note performance minus any redeeming features makes her "cold bitch" performance boring to watch.

R415 She was devastated and crying when her husband said he'd had enough and was going back to the club. She hung out the window looking at his fleeing carriage like a young school girl.

She was desperate when her husband was shot.

I don't get the "one note" criticisms of her.

[quote] Which is, of course, why the season's ending scenes were so... poignant.

It might have been poignant if it made any sense, but It didn’t. The children are happy, so George has no reason to remain angry at Bertha.

She was watching her Prince Charming speeding away at the end, just as it was all finally coming together for her. She got that social standing she had always craved, but possibly lost the love of her life in the process.

I loved that final shot and I was distraught along with her.

As to the complaint about Julian Fellowes not doing enough staging of the conflict between the old money and the new money: it would have been almost impossible to do without a narrator. One of the things about the old money in NYC is that they wanted to model mid-Victorian values, so they didn't go out much except to the opera: Asa Agnes and Ada demonstrate, they mostlyu stayed at home and read or did needlepoint. And when they disapproved of the new money they showed their objections by refusal to meet with them--it would be hard to demonstrate for television how they operated. Even Scorsese had to use Joanne Woodward in The Age of Innocence as a narrator to explain how the old money punishes people when they want to do so--they would never be so vulgar as to state out loud what they were doing.

R368, it will be hrd to avoid winter in Season 4 because my crew friend told me it shoots starting right after New Year’s. And shooting will end in May.

R415, Carrie Coon is not, and has never been, a one note performer.

Carrie Coon has grown on me as Bertha Russell, particularly this season. I thought she was awful in Season One, but so much that first year was. It even looked bad. GA has found its stride, particularly this year. Also, seeing Coon on WHITE LOTUS brought me around to finding her much more interesting all around. Looking forward to GA's 4th season. Let's get Russell father, George and son, Larry down to the Russian Baths on the Lower East Side for a spritz outside "the club!"

they would never be so vulgar as to state out loud what they were doing.…

Er, that is exactly what the narrator does in Innocence.

They've really done Mrs. Astor dirty in this show...she really was THE queen bee yet she really isn't portrayed as such. And, they ignore all her real history. She seems to live in this solitary bubble where we're only allowed to see one daughter of hers at a time despite the fact she had 4 daughters and a son (the one destined to die on the Titanic) and several grand children. Oh, and a rivalry with her nephew and his wife.

Does Donna Murphy have just one look? Raised eyebrows😳

When Martha pushes everyone aside and jumps up on the table to help the Doctor, I had a flashback of Shelley Winters diving into the water to save Scott in THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE. Not great writing, but these out-of-my-way-BITCH-I can do this!!! moments really bring out the gay cheering squad.

Martha?!?!?

I meant Marian not Martha...

R426

Myrtle!

While I believe that Ben Ahlers, who plays Clock Twink Jack is straight, more and more I think that Harry Richardson, the Australian actor who plays Larry is gay. Watch the YouTube Behind the Scenes video at R302 and Harry seems to be crushing on Ben.

R423, I believe that’s R419’s point. The narrator has to say it because the characters won’t.

[quote]Watch the YouTube Behind the Scenes video at R302 and Harry seems to be crushing on Ben.

...and he also seems to be crushing on the Duke. Wish I could be a fly on his dressing room wall.

I would like to see Mrs. Astor get at least one significant victory over Bertha.

And then it would be completely undone and reversed in the very next scene.....as will the final scene of this season in the first episode of the next season.

So, the plots for Season 4 are:

1) Who shot George? Was it really the work of his former assistant whose name I can never remember? Or, was it someone dumb like Maggie Simpson?

2) Will George and Bertha reconcile? Or, will they be pursued by new loves? Will George get the homosex he deserves?

3) The Duke and Duchess have a baby...I'm betting Bertha is there.

4) The continuing not that interesting romance between Larry and Marian

5) Peggy and the Doctor's Wedding....or, will evil Mrs Cosby foil things?

6) The potentially interesting pairing of Oscar and Enid...which will enrage Agnes.

7) Alarm Clock Jack. What will he invent next? And, I'm assuming the wooing of Bridget...or, will something get in the way of their love? Like homosex?

8) They're going to have to find a new Ada plot...they've mostly exhausted her mourning and Agnes has seemingly allowed her to be head of house.

9) Pumpkin has a litter!!!

435 - Seems about right. And what of Aurora? She was wronged, I’d like to see her get some action in Season 4. If Peggy and Marian are betrothed—and Gladys is happily married with a baby—then there are zero prospects for decent storylines with the young generation (except for Oscar. And Pumpkin.)

R435, good job. EXCEPT: I believe people will DIE!!!!! Let's think about that aspect. Now, Ada and Agnes are not historical figures. So I am betting one of them dies. Gets cancer and dies. Or perhaps Oscar. Or maybe there's a murder. Like let's say Oscar marries Mrs. Winterton. She discovers the Gay. They argue, she "bumps her head " and dies, and they charge Oscar with her murder. Or maybe it is someone from Peggy's gang, like her father, or her mother in law. Someone has to die!!!!!

In high society in NY in the 1880s were divorcees really accepted? I would have thought wasn't until the 1920s at the earliest.

It’s a soap, so after all these weddings, someone will have a baby, there will be a murder trial and, if they’re really old fashioned, there will be amnesia and some sort of evil twin or mysterious shirt tail relative.

John Adams' evil twin brother, reclaiming the family property??

[quote]I’m already predicting Gladys’ baby will end up dying in infancy. And Gladys has to be committed to a sanitarium.

I was actually thinking the Duke dies, but no matter because Gladys has the heir & that brings her back to the NYC fold as the Lady Widow (or whatever her title is).

That bitch ain't going anywhere with the heir r441.

The Russell men are behaving like morons. While poor Gladys was desperately trying to avoid marrying the Hot Duke, neither her father nor her brother did anything effective to rescue her, but now they have turned against Bertha despite Gladys’ obvious happiness.

I am very much Team Bertha now. Mainly because I wish my own dear mother could have manipulated events in order marry me off to a Hot Duke.

Well the real people they're based on, Consuelo Vanderbilt later the Duchess of Marlborough, gave her husband two live sons. Heir and Spare. They lived separate lives, eventually divorcing, and she was a very productive activist. Alva Vanderbilt, her mother also becomes an activist for women's rights. She and Mr. Vanderbilt divorce and she remarries some other rich guy. She had a face like a donkeys ass and was built like a brick house, but she somehow remarried. I'm not looking in that direction for scandal or death. I think the idea of John Adams having a relative who challenges Oscar R440. You need to contact Julian! As for next year's storyline, I think the Dewk and Gladys will be all lovey dovy until Gladys becomes more assertive and less dependent and gets involved in women's suffrage. They will argue and grow apart. Oscar and Winterton isn't gonna work out, so that's a storyline, and there will be more drama for Peggy and her doctor, coming from his family. Now Agnes and Ada can not long survive on quips and one liners and who sits at the head of the table. I agree AC Jack and his little maidservant girlfriend are going to get together. .

R444 here. I need to clarify. I know the George/Bertha storyline will be loaded with tears acrimony and scandal. Julian will milk it for all it's worth.

I cannot wait for Mrs. Winterton & Oscar to marry. Baranski as her MIL? Delicious!

R445: Will they be a sort of acrimonious Bates/Anna, where you want to see one of them hung.

I think it’s interesting that they are taking Agnes off in a new direction. Until now, her power has been economic, and the loss of her money was such a huge event that she in some ways refused to accept her new status as a dependent member of the household.

Now that she has been offered a role with the Historical Society, she has learned that her own name still carries weight: she still has social/cultural cachet, and the knowledge of that was enough for her to feel secure enough to cede her (somewhat diminished) position as head of the household to Ada.

Next season, it wouldn’t surprise me if she plays a more active role in society, and even politics.

Next season pumpkin plotline:

Larry gets Marian a cavalier puppy as a wedding present to commemorate the cause of their first meeting. (I will call the puppy Pepita for purposes of this sketch)

Since they’ll be going on a grand tour of Europe for their honeymoon, it is decided that little Pepita will stay with Aunt Agnes and Aunt Ada.

Hilarity ensues as Pepita and Pumpkin fight over laps and Pumpkin discovers that he can actually bark. Armstrong almost quits over having to constantly brush Pumpkin’s ears since Pepita is chewing them. Letters from the historical society mysteriously start going missing from Agnes’ desk, but Pumpkin solves the mystery by leading Agnes to Pepita’s secret chewed paper stash.

^Maybe in a shout out to one of the best Sopranos episodes of all time, George can pass out on Pepito in laudanum haze and smother him, earning him the rebuke of everyone and a long stay at the sanitarium

Those behind-the-scenes videos trigger me!

On movie and tv productions, actors are not even allowed water or coffee in their cups while in costume.

And these people are eating pizza! In 'those' costumes!

Wardrobe mistresses everywhere must be throwing hissy fits!

Indeed r451, no one is wearing a bib or apron.

I see photos all the time of actors eating in costume.

I think that's mostly a theater thing.

[quote] Who shot George? Was it really the work of his former assistant whose name I can never remember? Or, was it someone dumb like Maggie Simpson?

It was Pumpkin.

Dorothy showed remarkable restraint in not punching Phylicia in the face. I know Dr Kirkland's public proposal was corny and unrealistic, but it was so satisfying to see his mother get her comeuppance.

Agree that the writers really need to find something for Agnes and Ada to do next time.

I like that George's shooting didn't fix everything between him and Bertha, or between Larry and Marian.

I'd rank this season above the first but slightly below the second.

And still no butts.....this is HBO, people!

At what point will viewers turn against HBO for the too long wait between seasons of their shows?

It wasn’t that long ago when you only had to wait a few months between 20+ episode per season of a show. Now granted, I think seasons are better with episodes numbering between 10 and 16 but the wait between cable show seasons, especially HBO shows, has become ridiculous.

Especially with a series like this when there are only 6 episodes a season. Ridiculous with so many characters and (inept) plotlines.

It doesn't have to cost more. I say write more episodes and just let the ladies repeat a few dresses.....no one will notice.

There are already repeating costumes.

Bertha has worn that cream dress with the big drooping flower outlines multiple times.

Mrs. Winterton should play Jizz Lane in the miniseries.

[R457] Try waiting for new seasons of Bridgerton on Netflix. That'll ruffle your feathers.

r455 r457

It is bad writing because of the HBO series approval. Episodes 6,7&8 were already filmed before HBO greenlit S4.

It's as if Julian gave up the ghost and gave HBO the finger by writing the pre season4, approval series 3 with the skill of fan fiction. Bad bad writing.

[quote] And still no butts.....this is HBO, people!

I DEMAND that next season we get to see Christine Baranski's and Cynthia Nixon's butts!

[quote] Especially with a series like this when there are only 6 episodes a season.

There were actually 8 episodes this season.

Phylicia Rashad is perfect as an imperious, haughty b*tch.

Claire too was an imperious, haughty bitch.

Phylicia as Mrs. Kirkland was channeling the legendary Phoebe Tyler Wallingford from All My Children. IYKYK.

The ball would have been improved by the addition of dancing baby goats. Or maybe pomeranians.

[quote]Does Donna Murphy have just one look? Raised eyebrows

With one look

I can break your heart

With one look

I play every part

I can make your sad heart sing

With one look you'll know

All you need to know.

What this show needed at the Newport Ball was a grand entrance by the widow Mrs. Horace Vandrgelder. Everyone could break out singing 'Hello, Dolly!' And I know just the 83 year old actress who could play her...

Hello Dolly! takes place in the 1890s, the decide after The Gilded Age takes place.

When this show takes place there is no Mrs. Horace Vandergelder.

Well then she was still the widow Dolly Levi in the 1880s - and she should've been invited to the ball ! And Mr. Horace Vandergelder was still single in the 1880s, as well as very rich, so Bertha should've invited him to the ball - and he and Dolly could've met a decade before they did.

JF needs to add Joan Collins to the cast next season, as George's mother 'Enchantra'. Let her go tits to tits with Carrie Coon !

[quote] Er, that is exactly what the narrator does in Innocence.

That's exactly my point. Scorsese HAD to use a narrator because only she can say what must remain unspoken among the characters in "The Age of Innocence."

But this show does without a narrator, so you couldn't have that kind of subtle cruel behavior on this show.

[quote] Does Donna Murphy have just one look? Raised eyebrows

Before the parade passes by

I've gotta get some life back into my life

I'm ready to move out in front

I've had enough of just passing by life

I don’t want Clock Twink to get together with the maid. He has money now, he should find a nice upper class young lady to marry. He’s actually accomplished something and earned his way into society - the maid has not and she seems opportunistic. She can’t help him assimilate into his new class.

[quote]Those behind-the-scenes videos trigger me!

I saw a clip of Agnes Moorehead condemning BTS images. She said it ruined the magic.

Agreed r476. She was very uppity when Peggy moved into the house. An immigrant who can't read or write but was offended about sharing servant's quarters with a Black person.

She’s nice, but when he asked her out in season 1 she made it clear that she didn’t have feelings for him. That’s why he went across the street to court Adelheide, who is a similar type, but not as good natured or pretty.

He should marry a girl from a merchant class family who can help him with his business.

I think Jack should turn his attention to creating vibrators. He would be a hit with all the women, young and old. Not to mention all the guys, too.

Jack moving on from Bridget could be a great plot line in S4.

But what happens if Uncle Julian opens up S4 with the Title Card: 1885?

It will be a year from now, at least, before S4E1 debuts.

Do you really think he is going to start the day after Gladys announces her pregnancy?

How about, we are introduced to the one-year-old Marquess of Sidmouth in 1885? Totally absenting any pregnancy bullshit?

What were maternity clothes like back then? It’s not like you could wear corsets and bustles while pregnant. Or did women just stay at home once they started showing?

[quote] Well then she was still the widow Dolly Levi in the 1880s - and she should've been invited to the ball

A Jewess? From Yonkers? In Newport?

I don’t think so.

Wealthy women probably stayed home. “In confinement.”

R482, they actually did wear maternity corsets.

Would Dr Kirkland, the very light skinned son of the light skinned Phylicia Rashad (who is known for giving birth to very light skinned Lisa Bonet) and the practically white Brian Stokes Mitchell, really go for the black as night daughter of slave, Peggy?

I didn’t realize inter racial marriage was legal in the 1880s

R486, Southern states were the ones with anti-miscegenation laws.

There was plenty of de facto segregation elsewhere in the USA.

Maternity cosets supported and raised the bosoms with severe boning but could be unlaced in differing degrees around the tummy as the pregnancy progressed.

The draping of the fabric in the skirts of those Victorian dresses of various silhouettes through the decades were full and complex enough to hide some of the bulge but in the final months a well-bred and wealthy woman would indeed just sit at home in confinement.

I would love to see the series jump a year or two in S4 just to begin fresh with some new plots and characters.

And that’s not an interracial marriage.

Peggy's darker skin tone was clearly one of the things most upsetting the good doctor's mama (before she even heard about the pregnancy) but Julian Fellowes didn't have the courage to go there.

Even though they were light skinned, they were still considered Black.

I think he went there in the casting.

It’s abundantly clear that skin color is part of Mrs. Kirkland’s own prejudices.

[quote] A Jewess?

Dolly was not a Jewess, despite the fact she's associated as a character with Barbra Streisand.

She's Irish. Her maiden name was Gallagher.

[quote] How about, we are introduced to the one-year-old Marquess of Sidmouth in 1885?

Maybe it will be a spina bifida baby! That would create drama.

Her married name would be enough to keep her out, much less her “profession.”

He went there with comment about getting the grandchildren out of the sun.

Actually, Thornton Wilder set The Matchmaker, Hello, Dolly!'s source material in the 1880s and mentions it on the first page of the script in his stage instructions.

I don't think a year or decade is mentioned in the libretto of Hello, Dolly though Freddy Wittop's costumes for the original Broadway production did indeed suggest the 1890s or even the early 1900s.

[quote] Peggy's darker skin tone was clearly one of the things most upsetting the good doctor's mama (before she even heard about the pregnancy) but Julian Fellowes didn't have the courage to go there.

I like that the indoor scenes at night are dimly lit, but Peggy starts to disappear when I’m viewing the show on my iPad. I imagine that’s a problem for the lighting people when there is a wide range of skin brightness in the actors in a scene.

A problem for mediocre DPs, yes.

R494, not to state the obvious, but skin color was also matter of concern going all the way to maybe present day? Well not so much now, but it certain was something for many. I was very struck by how stratified Black society was based on color. This was true in schools, in churches and in neighborhoods. Hair and skin color...and even features. I a glad Uncle Julian put it out there, but it wasn't peculiar to that time.

R489, agreed and uncle Julian had used this method before.

I would not be surprised if S4E1 opens with a title card...1885 and the Marquis of Sidmouth is a year old, and Gladys and Hector are happy as clams. It might open with Sarah's wedding to some old widower aristo who already has children. Enf of S4, Gladys is pregnant AGAIN.

I'm surprised the skin tone at the ball wasn't more uniform and more "light".

It's also weird for us as viewers to have to wait a year and a half or a new season only to find out that for the characters it's only a day or two after the previous season's finale. All very meta, but nonetheless. Let's just get on with it and move to the 1890s and see where everyone is...

Wouldn’t there just be fewer light skinned black people in the north given that they would have had fewer generations of plantation rape?

(Yes I am aware slavery existed in the north, but it was outlawed significantly earlier and there were Irish indentured servants for the sons to rape also)

R504, we may be seeing the Kirklands going through the same thing that happened to the world of Mrs. Astor. You can establish a purported social elite but eventually you have to let in the people who have educated themselves and made their own money, like Peggy’s family.

Please jump to Gladys' kid being a teenager about to have her debut in society or whatever. I'm tried of being forced to pretend that Taissa Farmiga looks like a teen herself

R507 gets it. Thank you.

Our dear writer loves parallelism. At least he listened to whatever unnamed American ghostwriter he hired for that particular plot line. It stands out as good writing in a lazy sea of weak post-Civil War and Reconstruction history on this show.

I knew something was off about Bertha's garden display and Gemini cleared it up for me – they'd be using clear incandescent light bulbs because the frosted ones weren't invented until the 1920s. Those bulbs looked way too modern for 1883.

Fred: A funny thing happened as we were leaving the wardrobe.

Ethel: Oh, now, I don't think it was very funny.

Fred: The wardrobe woman accused Ethel of trying to sneak out with one of her bustles.

A little more from The Glitter and the Gold where Consuelo ("Gladys") describes her parents:

"Why my parents ever married remains a mystery to me. They were both delightful, charming and intelligent people, but wholly unsuited to each other. My father, although deep in his business interests, found life a happy adventure. His gentle nature hated strife. I still feel pain at the thought of the unkind messages I was made the bearer of when, in the months that preceded their parting, my mother no longer spoke to him. The purport of those messages I no longer remember -- they were, I believe, concerned with the divorce she desired and with her wishes and decrees regarding custody of the children and arrangements for the future. My father had a generous and unselfish nature; his pleasure was to see people happy and he enjoyed the company of his children and friends, but my mother -- for reasons I can but ascribe to a towering ambition -- opposed these carefree views with all the force of her strong personality. Her combative nature rejoiced in conquests. She loved a fight. A born dictator, she dominated events about her as thoroughly as she eventually dominated her husband and her children. If she admitted another point of view she never conceded it; we were pawns in her game to be moved as her wishes decreed. I remember once objecting to her taste in the clothes she selected for me. With a harshness hardly warranted by so innocent observation, she informed me that I had no taste and that my opinions were not worth listening to. She brooked no contradiction, and when once I replied, "I thought I was doing right," she stated, "I don't ask you to think, I do the thinking, you do as you are told," which reduced me to imbecility. Her dynamic energy and her quick mind, together with her varied interests, made her a delightful companion. But the bane of her life and of those who shared it was a violent temper that, like a tempest, at times engulfed us all. "

They made great looking kids together though. Consuelo's little brother Willie was kinda hot. (pic)

Kinda hot?? He is prime Victorian sirloin, r512.

R500 I've complained about this before on here...but, TGA isn't the only show guilty of shitty lighting for actors of color. It happens in films, too.

It might be sorta/kinda understandable if you have a very light skinned person and a dark skinned person in the same shot; that's really hard to light and film, but if it's ONE dark skinned actor in a shot to themselves and they still can barely be seen, then it's either a terrible cinematographer or one who is being overly rushed to get the shot.

Or someone watching on a shitty screen. Lots of people complained about the night battle on Game of Thrones, but it was fine on a good TV . I don’t think DPs aim for shows to look their best on IPads or bad TVs. If they did, they would not look good on the better screens.

More Consuelo :

"We did not live for long in the little nondescript house in which I was born. Choosing Richard Morris Hunt as her architect, my mother built a large ornate white stone house in the French Renaissance style at the northwest corner of Fifth Avenue and Fifty-second Street. It was demolished after my father's death to make room for office buildings. This house stood back from the avenue and was approached by wide steps leading to an iron-grilled entrance. Inside, one saw on the right a great stairway running up three flights. How gay were the gala evenings when the house was ablaze with lights and Willie and I, crouching on hands and knees behind the balustrade of the musicians' gallery, looked down on a festive scene below 00 the long dinner table covered with a damask cloth, a gold service and red roses, the lovely crystal and china, the grown-ups in their fine clothes. The dining room was enormous and had at one end twin Renaissance mantelpieces and on one side a huge stained glass window, depicting the Field of the Cloth of Gold on which the Kings of England and France were surrounded with their knights, all not more magnificently arrayed than the ladies a-glitter with jewels sat seated on high backed tapestry chair behind which stood footmen in knee-breeches. Next to the big dining room was a small breakfast room adorned with Flemish tapestries and Rembrandt's portrait of the Turkish Chief. Then came a white drawing room hung with a fine set of Boucher tapestries; here were the beautiful lacquer secretaire and commode, with bronzes chiseled by Gouthiere, made for Marie Antoinette. Next door our living room, a paneled Renaissance salon, looked out on Fifth Avenue. My father's dreary room saddened me -- it seemed a dull place for so gay and dashing a cavalier who should, I thought, have the best of everything life could give. He was so invariably kind, so gentle and sweet to me, with a fund of humorous tales and jokes that as a child were my joy. But, alas, he played only a small part in our lives; it seemed to us he was always shunted or sidetracked from our occupations. It was invariably out mother who dominated our upbringing, our education, our recreation and our thoughts. When I was old enough, I was moved from the nursery next to my mother to a room above hers, to which she had access by a spiral staircase in one of the towers that adorned the house. After the holidays there were matinees at the Metropolitan Opera House to look forward to, when in my best dress I sat in my father's box near the stage. My earliest operative recollection is of hearing the great Adelina Patti (Patti LuPone's great-great aunt) sing Martha. Her birdlike trills evoked scenes of wild enthusiasm, and mountains of bouquets were heaped around her diminutive form. Willie and I also went to a weekly dancing class conducted by Mr. Dodsworth, an elderly and elegant instructor who had taught succeeding generations of New Yorkers how to dance and how to behave when in company. Willie disliked being dressed in his best sailor suit and having to dance with elderly girls who steered him around, but I liked wearing my prettiest dress, and the competition of boys who wished to dance with me gave me a sense of superiority I did not often enjoy at home."

(pic) Consuelo Duchess of Marlborough with her father in Paris

Maybe Lisa Bonet can join the cast and play Peggy's older sister, who has been living in Boston to be part of the wedding. Of course, Mother Kirkland will favor the light-skinned daughter.

r514 the problem with this show is that they start with it under lit to give it a hazy "retro" quality to it, also with the weird bokeh focus for (already dark) interior mid to close up shots. If they try to light the dark skinned actors correctly with caucasasian actors in the same shot, the caucasian actors will be blown out (they'll just be a flat white plane with 5 holes in it for eyes, nostrils, & mouth). I don't know if they try to use a bounce card for the darker skinned actors, but if they are, it's not working.

[quote]Kinda hot?? He is prime Victorian sirloin

#Truth. At least if not hotter than Harry Richardson who plays him in the show.

R516 why isn’t she dressed in Neon Green?

Phylicia Rashad can be the Mother Jefferson to Peggy.

Mother Kirkland has a point about Peggy’s not telling her son about her past.

R522, Peggy tried to. After she told him about her boss and that affair, she said "there's more..." and suggested she had another story to tell, but he said he didn't need to hear anymore. Ofr maybe I'm remembering it wrong?

If a man looks like he is going to get serious, it’s important for the woman to notify the man at once if she is used.

I find that very helpful at r512. She seems awful, much more than Bertha, but actually more explicable. In the series, Bertha is a bitch, but really, they soften her and in a weird way that makes things a little less explicable. Right now I think everyone is wildly overreacting to the "awful" wedding of the Duke and Gladys. But really it ain't that bad, looking at it in the series. In life, with that background, it becomes much more everybody was eager to tell Alva Vanderbilt to go fuck herself.

But that's the problem with series like this. Everyone goes into a panic at the thought of real cuntitude.

Ha! R524

[quote] If a man looks like he is going to get serious, it’s important for the woman to notify the man at once if she is used.

Shit, TELL me about it!

It sees as if Consuelo gave her father a complete pass. The thing is and this remained true for decades, running the household and taking care of the children's upbringing and education fell to the mother. Now once a son became a certain age Dad took over making sure he got a good education and was on track for a successful profession.

R515 I've watched TV shows on many different screens and the same thing happens. Also: cinema screens.

Why make excuses for bad cinematography?

"Oh, it's not THEIR fault, or the production company...it's YOUR fault for not having a the right TV!"

Fuck you.

I didn't know the Streeplet on TGA was a lesbian; I thought she was the one married to Mark Ronson

I see someone is touchy about the quality of their television. It’s not a matter of “fault.” It’s sometimes difficult to make some images work on all screens. If they optimize for one type of display, they compromise how it looks on others. It makes sense that they optimize for the best screens since that’s what they are using.

[quote]She seems awful, much more than Bertha, but actually more explicable. In the series, Bertha is a bitch, but really, they soften her and in a weird way that makes things a little less explicable.

Later in life, the two of them became much closer. Alva really changed. She spent less time building mansions and started writing big checks for the Suffragette Movement. Her second husband Oliver Belmont died in 1908 and she moved to France in the 1920s to spend more time with Consuelo. Alva bought and restored the Chateau d'Augerville (pic). Consuelo married for love the second time to a handsome Frenchman. Both Consuelo's younger son Ivor and her second husband died in 1956 with Consuelo making it to 1964 and dying at 87 in Southampton Long Island.

A link showing the amazing homes Consuelo lived in over the years, including her final home in Southampton.

Jesus...the shit people say on here.

Yes, it's a wise decision to create art and entertainment that only looks good on a small percentage of tvs.

The reality is, it takes time and fucking EFFORT to light darker skinned people. They're doing it because of MONEY and/or incompetence.

I remember the first instances of Denee Benton being lit badly were in all those scenes in the newspaper office of her first suitor. But there I also faulted the dark walls which were a stupid production design choice. Until the recent Newport scenes many of the interiors featuring the Black actors have dark walls.

Am I the only person who wishes that poster would just start a separate thread about Princess Consuela Banana-Hammock? I don't care and the excerpts are too long.

Duly noted and I'll stop with the Consuelo inserts from her book as long as you stop trying to be funny with your lame "Kitchen Aid" and "Consuela Banana Hammock" jokes. You aren't quite as funny as you think. Cheers!

[quote] Jesus...the shit people say on here.

Sorry you find the idea that the problem is with your screen so ridiculous. Your explanation for why it seems to you that the many Black actors on one of the most expensive and carefully produced television shows ever produced are poorly lit makes so much more sense—they hired an incompetent DP, no one involved in the production has noticed (because racism) and none of the actors involved has said a word.

[quote] The reality is, it takes time and fucking EFFORT to light darker skinned people.

All the Scotts were affected by the dim lighting, but especially the dad. It was hard to make out his features.

Since I watched Insecure, most lighting for black people is a hate crime in comparison. Now I need to rewatch Insecure

Judging by what I’ve seen on TikTok, there a lot of black viewers who really love this show and the Peggy storyline. There’s calls for having a Peggy spinoff. That would be cool to have a second show in the same The Gilded Age universe and characters could appear on both shows.

Insecure is a comedy at its heart, so it can have brighter lighting. Are there any historical tv dramas with dark skinned people with good lighting?

No one actually learns about Reconstruction in school anymore, or what came shortly sftrr it ended.. Nor do people learn about de facto vs. de jure segregation (in the north and the south) or bias within minority communities. That’s why it’s the most informative and historically accurate part of the show.

You have to be carefully taught.

^^^I see what you did THERE^^^

They do not teach Reconstruction anymore, I learned it in Grade school in 7th& 8th grade at St.Bridgets.

At your age, the standard curriculum would have been that Reconstruction couldn’t work, or was a failure.

The scholarship having long since focused on the fact that it was never fully embraced or given a chance to succeed. It’s not a random coincidence that there’s a hundred year gap between adoption of the three Civil War amendments and the ‘64 CRA and ‘65 VRA. There’s a reason northern cities like your beloved Philly were as segregated as they were. We can go on and on.

The social dichotomy in Peggy’s world was not unique to Blacks. There’s an entire universe of scholarship about disparate treatment by early immigrant German Jews of later immigrant Eastern European Jews. Even your sainted Irish nuns distinguished between lace curtain Irish and shanty Irish.

[quote]Are there any historical tv dramas with dark skinned people with good lighting?

I re-watched The Knick recently and Soderbergh knows how to shoot black people. He made André Holland look gorgeous in that

Yeah, that's what I remember being taught r545 (though it's been, um, awhile since grade school). And I hope they do use Peg to teach people some of this. Obviously this series isn't going to turn into some hyper political show. I'm sure people don't want that. But at the same time, this stuff is there in the background, and it would give Peg and her MIL something to argue about besides the usual shit on decorating and how to raise the kiddies.

[quote] The social dichotomy in Peggy’s world was not unique to Blacks. There’s an entire universe of scholarship about disparate treatment by early immigrant German Jews of later immigrant Eastern European Jews. Even your sainted Irish nuns distinguished between lace curtain Irish and shanty Irish.

Of course every group has social divisions based on education, class and (in the case of later Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe) national origin, but I think the skin-color issue for Blacks is tragically unique.

I love this discussion about History and Reconstruction. If any of you have any serious interest I highly recommend Eric Foner's work. He was/is an historian and t aught at Columbia University. Check him out. I also have a book of the literal transcripts of the Reconstruction Amendment Debates. They were highly illuminating. Interesting to read the discussions about segregation in the 1850's too. Also check out Justice Taney's opinion on the Dred Scott decision and its impact on on secession. I am currently reading Demon of Unrest by Eric Larsen. Great stuff. R543 and R545 thanks!

It’s not just benign neglect that leads to ignorance about Reconstruction. Like the myth of the noble Lost Cause, it is willful suppression and revisionism in the name of Southern white self-delusion. The same impulse Trump and Hegseth are promoting today in bringing back confederate monuments and purging libraries and museums of “unpatriotic” truths. They are in service of the idea that White Supremacism is correct and has been unjustly suppressed. Reconstruction ended in betrayal, and that history has been buried on purpose.

In fact, in watching GA I find myself wondering if the presentation of this large, prosperous Black society isn’t another kind of distortion. As if to say “ See—it wasn’t so bad for the Blacks just after the war. Abandoning Reconstruction was alright.”

I have two better recommendations. Read Kenneth Stampp and Leon Litwack.

R550 a bit perhaps. But pull back some and it’s Julian, of all show runners, sharing an insight into our history that so few actual know about. A net plus, in light of all the gloss the show general presents.

Mark Twain has his faults, heaven knows, but he was prescient in observing that the gold leaf of those times hid so many stains on the -American experience.

* generally

True r550. As someone (maybe Gore Vidal?) once said, the South lost the Civil War but won the History of the Civil War.

R549 thanks—both are me.

Taking Leon Litwack’s course on post-Civil War America was the best thing I ever did in college. In his prime, his lectures were one of a kind.

Fellowes is a Tory, after all.

R554. Correct—up until the late 50s and early 60s when American historians turned a page and the scholarship lead in a new direction. The political reality took that long to evolve just the same…

…and here we are, devolving as we speak. Another storm comin’.

R550 I don't think this is the aim of the Gilded Age. There are African American Scholars involved with producing this show, (an African American woman directed Season 3's finale.) and he is making an honest (IMO) attempt to be as accurate as possible. I didn't expect the show to be as sensitive and aware as it is. Unfortunately our education system has been sanitizing and ignoring the history and the achievements of of African American people in the United States for a very long time. And it spills over into our culture. For Example. I didn't know that the 761st Tank division was an all Black outfit that fought under Patton in the Battle of the Bulge and were called the Black Panthers. If you've ever seen the movie, Patton, you'd never know it. I had no idea Black women were key players working for NASA until Hidden Figures. I think too often stories are told from the perspective of others who overlook or ignore the involvement of African Americans out of ignorance or malice. I didn't realize there were wealthy free people of color in New Orleans, before the Civil War, and enclaves of wealthy African Americans int he North. In a way, segregation allowed Peggy to enjoy an upper middle class life like other African Americans of her background, as long as they stayed in their lane.

Love the Knick; highly recommended to anyone who hasn’t seen it.

The skin color thing certainly exists in the Sicilian community.

And I believe it also exists amongst people from India and folks from the Philippines.

R538 Agree with all you say. I think, additionally, what's presented in TGA that has been often buried or ignored in our understanding of American culture and history is the "color" line in Black culture. The "wealthy North American enclaves of African American" where disproportionately lighter skinned Blacks. The line, "make sure the children don't spend too much time in the sun" by the lighter-skinned materfamilias was something rarely, if ever, presented in American entertainments. "High yeller" is something resonant with older Black people, but doesn't register with most white folks.

Please don’t bring up Italian skin color. You KNOW that never ends well here.

It’s good to know that they are doing their research and including Black Historians and it is important to portray Black success, but I still worry that the show may be painting too rosy a picture of race relations in the era with its exclusive focus on the rich and their happy servants. I get that that’s Fellowes’ milieu.

R562 Yep, I'd love to follow the stories of the Black servants in the Black homes.

R563 especially in the Kirkland household.

The historian Eric Foner is still alive. He retired from Columbia in 2018, and is a much celebrated scholar. If anyone is interested he posted some of his lectures regarding the lead up to the Civil War, and then Reconstruction online for free. I don't expect many of you will be interested, but there are a few of you who may be.

Speaking of the South: it's very telling that Ward McAllister was Southern. His attempt to create a fake aristocratic class in the U.S. in which people who worked for their money were looked down upon summarizes everything that was wrong with the antebellum South. Fellowes, inescapably, has sympathy for this world view.

Mc Allister is not Julian's invention. He was a real person and he was definitely a key player in the GA. You could hardly develop a series about the GA without including him. But R566 brings up an intriguing point. He was Southern. So it begs the question whether or not he was trying to recreate something in NYC that no longer existed in the South after the Civil War, that Planter class that prided itself on creating a "chivalric" society. This was especially true in South Carolina and Georgia. It was a cultural thing based on upholding an economy based on the labor of enslaved people. Reconstruction lasted about 12 years, I think. So, 1865 until1877. McCallister was born in the early 1800's, and was very much informed about the social norms of the South. His family was prominent in Savannah because they were judges and lawyers. He married a wealthy Southern girl whose family had moved to New Jersey. He travelled extensively in Europe. So Ward McAllister re invented himself...and apparently he re invented Lina Astor.

He did do all that r568, and in fact the show has fucked up by fucking up his timeline. He should still be the arbiter at this time, and in a few years he and Mrs. Astor should be compiling the list of the Four Hundred who belong in society, and therefore who shouldn't. They really should've had that scene somewhere, and the subsequent reaction when the list actually is published. It was a big event in that world, but now because they moved up his "scandalous" book, they've blown it. As of course they've been blowing it with Mrs. Astor throughout the series.

R569I'm used to historical fiction fucking up timelines. The GA isn't a documentary, so I don't think playing with the timeline affects the narrative for me. I enjoy it for what it is. And then I Google stuff the verify. LOL!

I don't mind some generic messing with the timelines, but I think this one was a fuckup r570. I think they missed an opportunity here.

R568 he was just one of a million examples of “letting bygones be bygones.” Read your history. The South was forgiven early and quickly. And, plenty of men in NY and NE profited off the Soutb before and after the war.

NJ was home to Princeton, the “most southern” Ivy and full of slaveholders’ sons. NJ elected the most reactionary segregationist as governor—the president of Princeton. Me, Woodrow Wilson

Back then you could still be a true progressive and a segregationalist at the very same time! What a world…

segregationist*

New Jersey had another distinction, cause of how they "abolished" slavery in the early 1800s. What they did, was declare that after 1804, children born into slavery would be free, but only when they were 21 for girls and 25 for boys. What that meant of course, was first, the current slaves were still slaves. And second, masters were free to sell the newly born "indentured servants" into slavery in southern states, before they reached the age of freedom. A lot of people did go on to free their slaves anyway, but still, there were 16 slaves in New Jersey at the time of the Emancipation Proclamation. The last slave in New Jersey died in 1875, not that long before this show starts. (In fairness, he was a special case. He basically refused to be freed, and his master did let him live on the estate and get taken care of until he died. But still, he had been a slave and still was when he died.)

"carefully produced"

Oh, my sides!

Here ya go!

r548, it's also in almost all of the Asian cultures, including Southeast Asia.

Is that really the same thing r579? In the U.S. black population, what it means is having more white ancestors than black ancestors. I get that there has always been this thing, that lighter skin is about being upper class cause you don't spend all your time outside in the fields or wherever. But in the U.S. it is a more exact thing: you are lighter, and therefore better, because you are whiter than those "darkies."

R572 I have "read my history!" I have to laugh at that comment. But then you have no idea of me or my life. The "let bygones be bygones" sentiment was definitely not something White southerners felt. Good god. The White Christian nationalist roots are in Pre Civil War South justifying the enslavement of people. That racism mutated, and penetrated every corner of society, and even those sympathetic to helping previously enslaved Black people during Reconstruction and beyond, had their limits. Segregation forced African Americans post civil war to build their own economy. Whether it was thru entrepreneurs, catering medicine, pharmacists, etc. builders craftsmen, etc. In an odd way, post Civil War segregation helped build the Black Middle Class and built Black wealth and social capital. Agnes was one who was sympathetic. And was proud of her personal contribution to helping Black people especially women, get an education and "better themselves." But how would Agnes or Ada have reacted to Oscar proposing to Peggy? Exactly. "Stay in your lane."

It is. But if we go by your view, it would only be the Vietnamese/French and the Indian/British. I think humans just inherently think lighter is better-skin, eye, hair.

R574, I was reading Demon of Unrest about Fort Sumter and Charleston and the whole secessionist movement, and it was interesting to read that when the commander of Fort Sumter was sympathetic to the South and supported Slavery, BUT he was also a dedicated and loyal Unionist and was completely against Secession and upheld his oath to defend the Fort from the Confederacy.

Actually, from what I've read, it is the mixed race American/Vietnamese who are looked down on. I don't know if it's different with the Vietnamese/French but I'd be a little surprised. Same with the Indian/British. They might in fact be high caste for all I know, but is there a hint that they're not "real" Indian?

Good Lord, this thread is heading toward a “Norwegian Catholic” argument before it’s put out of its misery.

It was a fun season. See y’all in a couple of years!

There are real world things in the background of this series. Sorry if that upsets you r585.

A friend married a Chinese woman from Mainland China. When their two beautiful kids were old enough, they went for a visit and while some family members were welcoming, they do not accept mixed race Chinese very readily. And the White husband was kept at a distance. Whatever. It's interesting to me that most of the time we focus on how White society will or will not accept POC and we seldom explore the fact that maybe they don't like or accept us white people.

It came as a shock, I'm sure r587, for that white husband. It's just a fact, and I say this as a white guy, we do expect a world that considers us just a little bit better, cause that has largely been our experience, at home in our largely white countries but also when we travel to poorer countries. We are still in an Imperialist world in many ways, and I'm sure it is at least a surprise when some group of people actually considers white people lesser for real. We get "resentment." We don't tend to encounter actual contempt for our whiteness.

R581 we’re on the same side. The “bygones” comment was about the prevailing Northern attitude and the related failure of Reconstruction.

Take’r easy. ☮️

If the Black historians employed by TGA are as knowledgeable as the costume design and vocal dialects, I wouldn't put much faith in them.

Enjoy TGA for the entertainment it is, but don't look for anything truly authentic there. Julian Fellowes is an ass and everyone has to answer to his whims, his version of the truth.

No problem, R589. All good!

Season 4 Plot Pitch: Agnes and Ada find priss-pot Armstrong drunk and stealing linen, and fire her from the Van Rhjin household. Unable to find other employment due to her age and sour disposition, she is only kindly offered "Lady Maid" by Clock Twink and his new Irish Bride. They hire her and treat her with respect as "family" and humility. She cannot handle the forgiveness and chooses to commit a "Javert".

Actually, R592, that's not a bad idea except for her not handling forgiveness. I can see her being proud, embarrassed and sour, but a hard worker and loyal. I don't think Agnes would let her go unless she get mean about Peggy again.

Couldn't they get Tyler Perry to light the scenes with the black cast ? He could do wonders.

Ha -- Armstrong being forced to be Clock Twink's servant is like that Seinfeld plot about the sitcom where a criminal is forced by a judge to become his victim's butler. I love it.

Tyler Perry should make a cameo on the show as Madea

Does anyone remember those scenes in S1 with Armstrong and her ailing mother and Bauer the Cook and her gambling addiction....that both went nowhere?

Meh, at least he's white.

I watched a clip of LaWanda Page from Sanford and Son earlier today and wished she was still around to pop up on TGA.

Aunt Esther as Ada's new spiritual advisor would be Emmy Gold!