University of Penn to ban trans athletes from women’s sports

The guy on the left is kind of cute.

I can’t get mad about this one. If “Lia” is a woman then my dog’s a cat.

Good.

Best news i've heard all day..

Ever notice "trans activists" are silent whenever a trans story breaks? Such leadership.

I am in favor of this decision for elite sports but I don't know what the solution is for kids sport

I teach Chinese students. I mentioned trans something or other (I forget) and the boy said “is that like transitioning your gender” and I said yes. He replied “that’s yucky and I don’t want to talk about it anymore.” His response felt like the kind of response a child would give if he had been taught not to be touched by an adult pervert. It was kind of funny that Chinese children are still being taught that this is not an acceptable subject of conversation. It made me feel like I had said something very wrong.

I support trans acceptance but I don’t disagree with this. Acceptance doesn’t mean letting them destroy the dreams and hard work of girls who’ve been training for years in a sport, only to have to compete against a guy.

And this issue is important why?I don't think sports has a place in schools period. Schools are for art. Transgenders in sculpture competing with Straights and Gays for galley space, how dare they.

It's so weird, at Penn this literally is about one person. Read Milky Loads NYT article for why all gay men are now yoked with this crap.

[quote]I am in favor of this decision for elite sports but I don't know what the solution is for kids sport

There’s no such thing as a trans child.

Why were you talking about gender anything to children?

You did say something wrong, that is entirely inappropriate.

Yes r10, this whole trans wave is being used as a stick to beat us with — by us I mean democrats and LGBTQ+.

And the whole thing started with overeducated straight women keen to show how much more accepting-than-thou they are.

By the way, by trans wave, I don’t just mean people living as the opposite sex. I don’t give a fuck about that — Mazeltov, do whatever the fuck you want and god bless.

What I mean is the crazed “advocates” who think the entire world should revolve around trans people and everyone should be subordinated to them.

"What I mean is the crazed “advocates” who think the entire world should revolve around trans people and everyone should be subordinated to them."

That's everything in a nutshell. Perfectly said.

This is what I live for.

[quote] LGB.

FIFY.

Liar Thomas getting his comeuppance! Beautiful.

Common sense, finally. Form and play in your own all-trans competitions and leagues.

R18 - I think they should still compete - even in the same heats - but the records and prizes should be separated.

Nobody is saying they can't compete or have to form their own leagues. But where possible - for example individual events like this - then they would have a women's winner and a trans-women's winner.

Team sports - well, that's obviously more complicated.

It was kind of maddening hearing the report yesterday that the one thing democrats were able to block in the Big Beautiful Bill was Medicaid NOT paying for gender affirming care for children. I was like - of all things to fight for, that’s most important?

Medicare won't pay for dentures or dental care ----mostly affecting Seniors---but the THEMz want it to cover their "gender affirming" nose jobs and boob jobs and a lifetime of hormones?

Insurance companies half to obeying the orders. Obama made this happen. This dude looks like kid who shot up a classroom of little kids. .

“Yes, federal law prohibits discrimination in healthcare based on gender identity, meaning most insurance plans must cover medically necessary transgender care. However, specific coverage details vary by plan and may require documentation of medical necessity. Key“

DL's numerous anti-trans trolls are beating off to pics of their new hero, Donald Trump.

Are your dicks little button mushrooms, just like his?

Has anyone ever heard of a Trans Man competing in male sports?

All these "trans athletes banned from women’s sports" headlines are incorrect. Trans are not being banned from women's sports - biological females who identify as trans can still participate in women's sports, providing they aren't taking any performance-enhancing drugs (the same rules as for all athletes). Moreover, biological males who identify as transwomen are not being banned from women's sports because they identify as trans but because they are biological males.

R23 is incredibly stupid.

Several UK sporting bodies have declared the men's competitions open to all, so trans can compete without compromising their identity. They don't, of course.

The UK recently passed a law where a trans woman is legally a man and a trans man is legally a woman.

Stop trying to make the UK sound so much more accepting of Trans

That's not what actually happened, r28, even though there wouldn't be anything wrong with what you describe. The UK Supreme Court ruled that the word "woman" in the Equality Act applies only to biological women. There had been a problem with trans groups and their handmaidens giving false "advice" and inaccurately telling companies, universities, etc. that the word "woman" in the Equality Act applied also to males who claim to identify as women, which is quite patently a lie.

The problem with trans-identified people's campaigning - along with lying and misrepresentation, as evidenced in r28 - is that they are extremist and maximalist. Apparently for the law to distinguish between the male sex and the female sex is "not being accepting of trans". There are many instances in which the law and regulations in general need to be based on biological sex and not "identity". - sport being just one pertinent example. Trans people can dress or identify however they want, but that doesn't mean that they should force the rest of to suspend our belief in physical reality.

Trans-haters are the pettiest bitches on Earth. My god.

No one "hates" trans, r30, we just don't believe that humans can change sex or that a biological male is a woman. Presumably by "petty" you mean adhering to facts and reality.

[quote]It made me feel like I had said something very wrong.

You did. R7, you should not have brought this up to any children. That's unprofessional. You are begging for trouble. And no, it didn't just come up. You brought it up. These kids told you they don't like it. You crossed the line.

It's sad that you can't see how WRONG you were. Any teacher that brings up trans/gender topics to children is screwed up and is BEGGING for trouble.

I think R7 might have said “transcontinental” or something like that. But, still. At this point I would expect an educator to avoid that prefix. And it does seem a little unlikely that a kid would immediately latch on to it (unless the parents have been providing explicit instructions to). The hypothetical scenario illustrates why some parents don’t want teachers touching on this stuff at all. It’s just not appropriate at a young age.

The idea of having trans athletes compete in their own categories or at their own competitions is great in theory, but not that easily workable in practice. Separate trans teams and competitions would cost money and in most cases school would not be able to field a whole team even if they were willing to bear the expense.

Transwomen competing but not winning or scoring points would create issues with line ups as you aren’t going to want a trans woman in a limited number of slots if she can’t possibly score points. In lower level competitions I guess you could just add heats, that’s not a huge inconvenience. But there are still logistics like how many for on the bus, how many hotel rooms does the budget cover, etc. At a national level swimming competition the 8th seeded swimmer in the final heat might have a shot at 3rd place. But not if they are knocked down to 9th. And you still have the potential for a biological man sharing a locker room and hotels rooms with some very young and (in some cases) inexperienced women.

I think there was a trans man cyclist competing in masters events and doing OK and a swimmer at Harvard. It’s not a concern because they aren’t taking spots away from men who have trained hard for years and made sacrifices with the expectation of a relatively level playing field. I guess they might take a spot away from an enthusiastic newcomer or a guy who is trying to to come back from an accident or illness, but the impact is just so much smaller that it doesn’t register.

I’m not against the idea of accommodating transwomen. Just pointing out that it isn’t so easy-peasy.

Good. Next thread, please.

How long before Lia detransitions...3, 2, 1?

It is finally time to pull the sword out of the fallen Democratic Party?

I don't believe for a single minute that Lia isn't a true transsexual and not some failed male athlete gaming a loophole .

Snark aside, this is the sort of nonsense that brings unwelcome attention and more pain to people who are actually trans.

Again, Dylan M., Bruce J. and this drag queen Aquaman do not represent any transsexuals I've ever met.

[quote]No one "hates" trans

Sure

Lia can be a "true transsexual" or a "false transsexual" or a "confused transsexual" or whatever the fuck she is. Doesn't matter. She had no place in competitive womens college athetics where her formerly MALE FUCKING BODY gave her unfair advantage. The end.

The organization that runs women's swimming has a whole list of guidelines you have to follow if you're a trans person wanting to compete. Lia did that. She didn't win fucking everything. In fact, she lost a lot. And still hasn't beaten the times of the very best women swimmers.

I just don't understand why something as low-stakes as women's college swimming gets people so upset.

Unless....maybe people DO hate trans!

Penn, U Penn or the University of Pennsylvania. Not University of Penn.

They really need to think about that name if they want people to know they are a private Ivy League school.

I have an idea.

R40, the bs rules that were devised to allow males into women's sports are being abandoned. The rules for swimming have been restricted to allow only women in women's swimming competitions and Thomas no longer qualifies.

Again, people don't "hate" trans. No one would have given a shit if Thomas said he identified as a transwoman but understood that being biologically male gave him a physical advantage and so he would only participate in the men's competitions. Have you noticed that there are no complaints about transmen competing in women's sports? Surely if your theory about "hating trans" were true, there would be calls to ban transmen from men's sports as well as women's sports. But, transmen choose not to compete against biological men (because biology makes a difference) and are welcome in women's sports.

[quote] Have you noticed that there are no complaints about transmen competing in women's sports?

Trans men would want to compete in men’s sports. Chances are they do with little fuss,

[quote] I just don't understand why something as low-stakes as women's college swimming gets people so upset

It’s not low stakes to the people who dedicate their lives to it. People who compete in D1 athletics are competitive both against other competitors and against all who have come before and will come after.. That’s why we keep track of record fast swims.

The entire reason we separate men from women in sports is that men have a biological advantage that would make direct competition unfair.

This is one area where the anti-trans crowd has an argument that goes beyond prejudice.

R40 It's always a red flag to me when someone tells me what I should and shouldn't be interested in.

R23 You seem to be obsessed with genitalia.

[quote]Penn, U Penn or the University of Pennsylvania. Not University of Penn.

You’re an idiot.

The University of Pennsylvania (Penn) was founded in 1740 by Benjamin Franklin—the famous diplomat, author, inventor, and scientist. Penn is one of eight private universities known as the Ivy League

The problem isn't with trans people.

The problem is with cheating men like "Lia" who want to take things away from women.

[quote]It's always a red flag to me when someone tells me what I should and shouldn't be interested in

I'm not sure anyone telling you what to be interested in. It's more that the obsessive interest seems like obvious bad-faith horse shit.

Gee. I wonder how they’ll rule. The suspense is unbearable

R6 the solution is that girls want no dicks in their shower and no boys on a girls team.

R40's "I just don't understand why something as low-stakes as women's college swimming gets people so upset."

So basically any sports achievement by a woman is low-stakes and shouldn't matter. Do you have ANY idea how many decades of practice, 6 days a week, many times twice a day, while balancing your university work load - it takes to get to the NCAA final let alone to win? The majority of NCAA women's swimming champions go on to the National and Olympic teams. It's rarefied air - no matter what the sport.

What women's sport would be high enough stakes for you? My guess is none.

This isn't the only case of this across sport - this is just the NCAA swimming one.

Every time I see someone claiming someone is anti-trans, I immediately think that person is anti-woman and it generally fits.

It's like they don't even read the responses on this thread - they just attack, claim we all hate trans and never address a single issue. They're like Trump voters - they're so deep into their 'cause' they can't see any issues or problems and just dismiss everything away because they can never admit they are wrong.

I just squirted.

[quote]Form and play in your own all-trans competitions and leagues.

...men's leagues.

Banning trans women from female sports is fine. The stripping of the titles is dubious. Thomas competed under the rules that were then in place, even if they were terribly misguided. That was on Penn, not the athlete.

Fairness is the fundamental principle.

Why do Americans always have to take things to the next degree?

R57 - Lance Armstrong was stripped of his Tour de France wins. It's called righting a wrong and is the cornerstone of fairness. We have more knowledge now.

And it wasn't on Penn, it was on NCAA.

How is it taking things to the next degree? This is happening all over the Western world. It's not unique to the US.

[quote]So basically any sports achievement by a woman is low-stakes and shouldn't matter.

Mary!!!!

I'm going to say this very slowly.

College sports don't matter. At all.

R59 - to you. For the rest of the US and competing athletes, it does. The 2nd and 3rd place finisher in Lia's final were both medaled Olympians.

I don't even understand why you need to comment - so none of this should matter because IYO college sports don't matter?

One of the stupidest comments I've read on DL - and that's saying something.

They knew it was fucking wrong to begin with, that's why they didn't protest. Fucking slimy assholes. Of course the people with the man on their team are all for it, they don't want to rectify it. They need to also call out the women who bullied other people for saying this shit isn't right. We all know it isn't right, some of you fuckers are disingenuous though. Oh and crazy troon (redundant) don't bother saying anything, I can't see you.

Oh R59 is R40 - and several other of the you're all trans-hater posts.

Of course, he's got nothing to respond with after our replies to him. Typical. He just dismisses it completely and says women's college sports don't matter.

He IS anti-woman.

R51

I'm not sure anyone is taking your armchair diagnosis seriously. You have no idea what anyone's level of interest is in anything but you're going to be morally superior anyway, and that won't fly in here.

Lia Thomas is not a woman. This is not "obvious bad faith horse shit". Every cell in her body has male chromosomes.

We've seen a lot of sparkly rainbows.

[quote] Lance Armstrong was stripped of his Tour de France wins.

Wasn't he doping? If so, that's a totally different and separate situation.

R64 - How? It's changing awards based on new information.

Just because this is the first known reversal for trans, doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do.

I find the Lia thing troubling. When Lia was William he was placing middle of the pack, he transitions into Lia and she's smoking all the other women. Something's not right. Lia is woman and deserves respect, but that doesn't mean she can swim with women who have always been women without assistance.

William was doping too R64.

OP- GOOD!

R19, why put in all this extra effort for one person's mental illness?

R66 - let's also add in the height advantage he received from his male puberty.

He was 6'3". I'm not saying women can't grow to that height, but it's extremely rare and you don't see it that often in any sport.

The longer wing and armspan does provide advantages - let alone the musculature, lung capacity, size of feet, size of hands, and less breast and hip/thigh fat/weight.

Let me provide some context - the 2nd and 3rd place finishers, Emma Weyant and Erica Sullivan, have silver medals from the Olympics. These are not some mediocre swimmers.

American college swimmers, particularly the individual winners, are always among the very best in the entire world. They are routinely ranked #1 or in the top 10 in the world for various events.

Some of the American swimming events are so deep with talent, the US Olympic Swimming Trials is the most competitive swim meet in the world - more competitive than the Olympics in most events.

So it's not some small 'whatever' women's college sport.

Thanks, R67. I wasn't aware of that. That changes the removal of the titles situation entirely, making the action justified. And now I think that Lia is scum for trying to take unfair advantage of female athletes.

Please pardon my ignorance.

[quote] I teach Chinese students. I mentioned trans something or other (I forget)

How old are these students?

R72 R67 There is no published claim or evidence that Lia Thomas was doping. Back in 2022, the editor-in-chief of Swimming World published his editorial stating that Thomas's biological advantages were "akin to doping".

Trans women can have physical advantages, I agree. Even if they are on HRT, they will still have increased lung and circulation capacity, as well as larger muscles. But since everyone qualifies and then are curated into like-ability groups in which to compete, what is the problem? And how many people are we talking here - in a study of 500,000 HS student sports teams the trans kids were in the single digits. We have to stop buying into their smoke screens. Keep two little squirrels fighting over one nut at the bottom of the tree from looking up to see the fat ones hogging the rest.

What's so bad about hating trans? The whole pronoun thing and their demand we participate in their delusion is annoying. Then there is the "affirming" care by performing double mastectomies on healthy young women, the trans craze taught in schools by the trans crazed, the whole thing is very fucked up and worthy of hating.

Lia Thomas knows exactly what it is doing in ruining girls’ chances and upsetting them in the locker room. What a piece of shit.

^^^While LGB gets wrapped up in all the insanity when we have nothing common with people who want to be the other sex.

I don't care if trans people compete in college sports. There are rules that the college sports orgs have laid down about it and if those rules are followed, that's that.

I don't care if she's taller than most. I don't think college women's swimming is at all important that it is a matter that the President needs to intervene in.

None of the girls melting down over the UNFAIRNESS of it all are bad-faith bullshit artists.

And even if you got what you want out of all this - which it seems you are - you won't be satisfied. You will obsessively search for other niches in American society that trans people might be found in and hound them out of there.

The Chinese kid I taught is thirteen and I literally mentioned the word in passing. Excuse me, but I thought that the whole world is supposed to be trans positive now. Personally, I think transgender stuff is disgusting also, just like the kid. It was like barely slipping by a car and having the alarm go on, blasting,

[quote] I thought that the whole world is supposed to be trans positive now.

Have you read a newspaper in the last three years??

so by R75's line of thinking, if the numbers aren't high enough, then this isn't an issue for women. There are multiple cases in CT and this year in Maine of high school males 'transitioning' and winning state championships - even though it's dubious what they had actually done to transition.

Males in women's shelters don't rape women often enough for it to be an issue either.

So basically women have to accept the potential of having titles and sporting victories taken from them and to have the risk of unwanted male predatory behavior in their spaces or even rape because the 'few' need to feel like women.

Do you hear yourself? So gays aren't fired THAT often for just being gay, so it's not an issue. Gays aren't beaten up nearly as often as they used to, so hate crimes shouldn't exist. Not ALL gays are turned down for adoption, so being gay should be a reason for groups to prevent gays from adopting.

Seriously dude?

[quote] None of the girls melting down over the UNFAIRNESS of it all are bad-faith bullshit artists.None of the girls melting down over the UNFAIRNESS of it all are bad-faith bullshit artists.

Is this what you intended to write, R79? If so, it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of your post.

I think maybe the line of thinking is "This is such a vanishingly small number of cases we're talking about, that the huge national freakout over it is totally unwarranted. It's a moral panic akin to the Satanic worship panic of the 80s, except this one is being funded by evil billionaires!"

R84 is also the author of "Trans-haters are the pettiest bitches on Earth. My god." and "I just don't understand why something as low-stakes as women's college swimming gets people so upset."

You meant to write "I just don't understand why something as low-stakes as women's rights gets people so upset." FIFY

And the satanic panic was a made-up panic with no evidence. This issue has all the evidence you would ever want.

But that won't stop you from pivoting, calling people crazy and petty, calling women's concerns non-existent and stupid.

You hate women - just come out and say it.

Sweetie, you're getting hysterical.

R86 - typical insult response from the supporters. If anyone is hysterical and not clear thinking it's you.

You're a woman hater. I say that as easily as you call everyone trans-haters on every single thread.

Stop hating women!

Ever notice you never see Lia Thomas MOM or DAD talking about how "proud" they are of their son? There's a reason for that.

But, apparently, sexual abuse of athletes is A-ok with U of Penn. Got it.

R89 - what are you talking about? What U Penn sexual abuses? You're confusing Penn State (state school) with U of Penn (private Ivy league).

Do a Google search before you make yourself sound like a complete idiot.

Lia didn’t cheat, but she behaved in an unethical and unsportsmanlike manner when she took advantage of a loophole or unfair rule .

Lance Armstrong flat out cheated. Maybe others were , too, but he knew it was against the rules.

I think a distinction should be made between younger competitors who have barely hit puberty or are on puberty delaying regimes and may be getting a lot of encouragement at home and from special interest groups and someone like Lia Thomas. Thomas was a grown adult and knew damn well from years of competitive experience that men and women have dramatically different swimming potential. I’m not saying younger transwomen should be allowed to compete in female categories, just that they may honestly believe the nonsense out there that suggests there is no advantage. They shouldn’t be painted as cheaters. Things are going to get tough enough for a lot of them.

R91 - they're not being painted as cheaters - they are being portrayed as their real sex, and in all cases, males will have an advantage over females which is why sports are sex-separated.

Someone threw out the Lia cheated response above - which wasn't accurate - but it wasn't a fair playing field. Don't make it out that trans athletes somehow are being portrayed dishonestly and not fairly.

Any verificatia of William/Lia sizemeat? 6'3" and skinny, well she must have a hefty shenis. And an Ivy grad. She's a great catch for a tranny chaser.

I won’t link to the New York Post, but apparently he is very well endowed

[quote]Do you hear yourself? So gays aren't fired THAT often for just being gay, so it's not an issue. Gays aren't beaten up nearly as often as they used to, so hate crimes shouldn't exist. Not ALL gays are turned down for adoption, so being gay should be a reason for groups to prevent gays from adopting.

I actually agree with all this. Job protections are unnatural and should be removed for everyone. If you suck at your job, you don't get to hide behind your "identity." Hate crimes laws are thought policing. And all violent crimes are hateful. Gays really shouldn't be adopting, or allowed to use surrogates. If you want a kid that bad, figure out a way to do it the old fashioned way.

And R95 doesn't even understand the comment he quotes. Or thinks being sacked fir being gay is fine as gay men can't do their job properly by virtue if being gay.

r96 It isn't me who didn't understand what he quoted.

How many copies of Dylan M's biography did the publisher have to pulp?

The public at large has no interest in the T.

It's really sad how badly a few flashy cases like this have set back the legitimate cause of LGBT rights. No one's talking about workplace protections, housing protections, or basic dignity, all because a handful of idiots just had to join competitive sports, damn the consequences for everyone else.

To paraphrase St. Gene of Hackman: "I know you want to be on a college swim team with all the other girls, but how many lives do you have to ruin to do it?"

So R95 - you're fine with gays being fired for being gay. Wow. Says a lot about you. And you don't think gays should have surrogates - what about straight people? What about adoption?

What a piece of work you are.

r39 He is a man, complete with male genitalia and a physical body changed by natural testosterone during puberty. William Thomas is such a poor athlete in the men's division he competed with women athletes and (temporarily thank god) won.

He is male, not female no matter how hard he tries to convince himself and everyone around him. He and ilk are pathetic -- including trans "men".

Off topic, but oh, dear…

This has nothing to do with right or wrong. This is the right wing pressuring a university to do its will.

It’s next will might be, fire all gay employees, and the university will bow to that.

We're talking about it, r75 because it is wrong!

You can't make your argument and then when it is toppled reply, "Well, why does it matter?"

It mattered enough for Lia Thomas to declare himself a woman and then compete in top tier swimming competitions, go ask him!

[quote]This has nothing to do with right or wrong. This is the right wing pressuring a university to do its will. It’s next will might be, fire all gay employees, and the university will bow to that.

We always get this troll trying to equate trans issues with gay issues.

We're not buying it, so just stop.

R104 everyone has to qualify to be in that category - there are cis women faster and stronger than her.... that's my point - is it really a problem - yes, you are correct, but is it really a big problem, no, it isn't.

R106 doesn't think women have met his standard yet of # of sports titles stolen, or rapes in women's shelters and spaces, or any point of being excluded on documents and replaced with 'they who get pregnant'.

Nope - you ladies will just have to sacrifice and suffer more before R106 will listen to anything you have to say. It's not enough yet - it has to get worse according to R106.

Does anyone actually thinks Trump and MAGA give a shit about girls and girl sports?

No, I don't R108. But why did the Left need to invest so much into a cause that most people find ridiculous.

Of course not, R108. But it would be kind of nice if the Democrats did, you know?