Did Princess Margaret really age horribly due to years of drink, drugs and too much sun?

I think she was the loveliest Royal bride. Cute, dorky husband, too.

I don't think she looks *that* bad, but yes maybe a little older than her years. She's 61 now.

That said, it doesn't look like she's wearing much (if any) make up in that photo. I suspect if she was, it'd take some of the years off.

Her sons though....

Who?

Bad genes. That famy is unfortunate looking.

She's morphing into cousin Anne territory...

She has a very distinct style and is usually one of the best dressed at any royal wedding. She doesn’t appear to wear makeup, I mean I’m sure she does, it’s just very subtle.

Sorry...family. Laying in bed typing on a phone.

I would say the sons are pretty cute, R5, when compared with other royal offspring. They at least don’t have that horsey inbred look.

The Windsors all resemble horses R9. Which particular sons are you discussing?

Doubting Thomas at r10. Lazy, too.

Rose Nyland’s sons, R10

Yes, R11. I'm lazing in bed right now. This thread is about Margaret, a Windsor. Inbred and horsey looking.

[quote]Did Princess Margaret really age horribly due to years of drink, drugs and too much sun?

Absolutely not ! It was her daily regime of yoga, five mile jog, protein shakes, and a vegetarian diet. That's what did it to her !

That is simply a poor photo of Sarah Chatto. As mentioned she has a definite style that she sticks to, it suits her slim figure and she is always one of the best dressed amongst the royal ladies. She also wears very little makeup.

I suppose Margaret had cosmetic work done, but even in her later years and dotage, she didn't look nearly as worn as Lady Sarah.

At 60. (in April 1990)

At age 60, R16, but with the hairstyle of a 90 year old.

It is mainly the lack of eye makeup (brow and lash) that makes the difference in these pics

They don't seem to use the right products for skin care. No moisturizers!!! But yes, I also see a bit of the Princess Royal in her face. Do remember, even though many of us remember her father as a hottie, in his later years Anthony Armstrong Jones didn't age well either. T'was the drink that done it. He and Margaret drank like pigs. Sarah Chatto might have been ill, dealing with health issue and medications can do that to you.

The Queen was very fond of Lady Sarah.

Does this branch really deserve its own thread? Why can’t this be buried in the existing BRFB thread.

*!BRF BULLSHIT

Margaret drank and smoked for decades and it aged her terribly.

Yes, Veruca darling at r21.

R3 made me look closer to Arthur and Samuel Chatto, especially the older one, Arthur, and I must say that I agree with the "woof!".

Ha - R24 I just went to grab the link you posted.

The hotness!

All teeth

R20 She was indeed. But then she was close to Margaret so it made sense she was very fond of her niece.

Margaret could apparently be very trying at times. I know there were lots of stories about her, but I never knew what to believe. However, I read one of her lady in waiting's books (Anne Glenconner) and she backed a lot of those stories up. Not in a nasty way though; she was clearly friendly with Margaret.

I recall one story she told where they were in New York and she decided last minute she didn't want to go to a Broadway show that she was expected at. Anne encouraged her by saying how the cast and theatre staff were all expecting her and eventually managed to coax her into going. But imagine being so selfish that you could think it was OK to drop out of something like that unless you were ill (she wasn't).

Sarah seems the complete opposite - a friendly and hardworking lady who shuns the spotlight. Good on her.

[quote]Margaret drank and smoked for decades and it aged her terribly."

Better that than living like a nun. She was a victim of the gene pool, and her drinking and smoking took their toll, but she had fun. Good for her.

"What good is sitting alone in your room? Come, hear the music play....Life is a cabaret, old chum..."

I would have killed to have been invited to one of Margaret’s infamous dinner parties where she trashed everyone.

Richard Eyre kept a diary when running the National Theatre in London. Margaret made her entrance at a much-anticipated opening, it might have been "Sunday In The Park With George." Eyre greeted her with a warm appreciative welcome, hoping she would have a wonderful evening. To which she said, "I hate Sondheim."

Margaret didn't care for Jews

Has anyone read Ma’am Darling?

Lady Glenconner still goes out of her way to bring up how cruel it was.

I tried to link it, but it won’t let me.

Princess Margaret: Queen of Mustique

R32 I want to read it.

This review has me curious - who is John Bindon, and how big was his apparently substantial penis?

[quote] thought she was so lovely at her wedding.

You were blind. She was always unattractive

R32: "M'am Darling" was meant to be a bit cheeky. Her Lady in Waiting was more sympathetic, but they both paint her as someone who couldn't reconcile being royal and rather common. Consequently, she could be haughty when it was inappropriate and "common" in the worst way.

It’s the brows and the contrast between the dyed hair and the almost invisible brows.

But she does look more wrinkled than I would expect for a 61 year-old.

Inbreeding, OP. You can see it with the teeth and long noses, OP.

Sarah and Anne were attractive when younger, but the recessive genes came out as they aged.

Princess Elizabeth and Margaret were attractive in an English sort of way.

Lady Sarah Chatto is an accomplished artist and is very down to earth.

M’am Darling was very funny. But it painted a picture of a very unhappy woman, full of grudges. She was portrayed much more sympathetically in The Crown.

One of my favourite tidbits from the book is how, when watching television with the Queen Mother, she would abruptly change channels without asking.

Disagree r35. No she’s not going to win a beauty pageant but she looks like a pleasant person.

Royal blood doesn't guarantee movie star looks. Don't know why some of you think it would.

I guess her mother and her sister felt guilty about ruining her life so they let her get away with all kinds of shit. In all honesty,, Elizabeth II could have done something to support her sister and been more compassionate instead of being such a stickler for the rules and traditions, and protocols.

The British are just not a comely race

When you consider her behavior as a form of rebellion it's a shame it involved so much self harm. She was a miserable person.

R43 - well the Royal family is mainly German, so...

They're not mainly German anymore.

[QUOTE]Elizabeth II could have done something to support her sister and been more compassionate instead of being such a stickler for the rules and traditions, and protocols.

I'm not sure what you mean, r42. Margaret had very few restrictions on her behavior and was left to her own devices when she wasn't begrudgingly performing Royal duties. She was a heavy partner and a wannabe jet setter type.

And as far as being a stickler for protocol, Margaret was the worst. She lorded her status over people to the point of overbearing and she could be incredibly cruel about it. The review of Ma'am Darling contains examples. Margaret also treated her mother poorly, considering her a commoner while noting she was of royal blood.

Ugh. ^ Partier not partner.

R46, agreed. People like R45 forget the Queen Mother was full Scots, and Diana is from the Spencer family, which is about as English as you can get.

R47 - I wouldn't say very few restrictions - she wasn't allowed to marry the man she wanted.

I have to think Margie had an impact on Harry - either through conversation or through Harry watching her life and noping out of that 'spare' bullshit.

I feel for all of the secondary royal children. Outside of completing the family, it feels awfully restrictive and pre-planned. And they will never lead the country.

R49 - I didn't know Diana gave birth to Princess Margaret, which is who this thread is about.

[QUOTE]I wouldn't say very few restrictions - she wasn't allowed to marry the man she wanted.

She was, eventually, given the go ahead to marry, but she would have to give up her place in the succession. Not sure if she'd have to relinquish the Princess title. The main opponents to the marriage were Tommy Lascalles, the Queen's private secretary who also filled the role for her father, and the Archbishop of Canterbury. Churchill was all for it. Elizabeth only asked her sister to wait a year until she had settled into the role and returned from a six month long Commonwealth tour.

R51 - well it was lose her place in succession, lose her royal privileges and her royal income (and potentially her royal status).

So yeah - there was a choice, but kind of a Hobson's choice.

It's also been said the relationship had fizzled by then. It was her first relationship.

[quote]Margaret drank and smoked for decades and it aged her terribly.

It was the sun.

R50. tell that to R45. He started it.

[quote] I have to think Margie had an impact on Harry - either through conversation or through Harry watching her life and noping out of that 'spare' bullshit.

Any sympathy, insight, or understanding of their positions as similar was lost upon the dimwitted prince. He threw her under the bus in his "memoir," when he said a look from her would wither a potted plant. It's a good line, but obviously ghostwritten for him.

She was always pretty ugly

She looked like a Jewish manicurist.

R56 - I don't think it was lost on him at all - she lived as an example of what he didn't want to repeat. I'm sure Diana was well aware of that too.

But really this all comes down to the British people and the awful British press. No other royal family is stalked, photographed, gossiped about and torn apart in papers on a daily basis like the British royal family, their spouses and their children.

It's Britain's own doing that they're such a mess. The British Press make up all of this - but the people love to read it - so both work together. No other royal family has to deal with all that crap.

It's very odd, Sarah Chatto and David Linley seem like really cool, creative, lovely, low-key people, despite having been spawned by parents who were (by many accounts) godawful assholes. How often does that happen?

I just want to know if any of the men in the family inherited Philip's sizemeat.

R60 I suspect neither parent spent that much time with their children. The Royal Family generally had governesses and nannies who would school and raise their children respectively.

Usually they'd just be presented to their parents for an hour or two in the evening. Then, when older, they'd go to boarding school.

They do say Margaret and Armstrong-Jones spent more time with their children than the average Royal, but that's still a lot less time than most parents do. Besides, Margaret was pretty vile to those she saw as beneath her (ie pretty much everyone) but she couldn't really think that of her own children - given she'd have been indirectly insulting herself!

I came across an interview with Margaret on YouTube recently (linked below) where she's asked about her memories of the war and VE Day, etc. She comes across surprisingly well, though there are a few expressions where you can tell she's thinking "don't get too personal, old chap" but she doesn't say anything, she just gives shorter answers to those questions.

"Margaret was pretty vile to those she saw as beneath her...:

Yet she shtooped a gardener for 15 years.

[quote]Margaret didn't care for Jews

I don't think that's entirely true. She enjoyed the company of gay stage and costume designer Oliver Messel, finding him charming and witty. Messel was half-Jewish (on his father's side) and Anthony Armstrong Jones's maternal uncle.

R63 Well, it's true Roddy Llewellyn was a gardener, but he's also a Baronet. So he was hardly of the 'lower orders' compared to, say, Kate - sorry Catherine - Middleton.

(Sorry Kate, love you. But Margaret wouldn't have approved.)

Lady Sarah is a lovely woman who keeps a distance from royal business, while she remains close to family members. My soulmate painted next to her at the Royal Academy school back in the early 90s.

[quote]It is mainly the lack of eye makeup (brow and lash) that makes the difference in these pics

Gayest absurdity in ages on DL, cosmetics counter clerk R18 blaming the lack of eye makeup for that fucking turkey wattle and more cross-hatched facial lines than in a 17thCentury engraving.

"Just spend £600 on some starter product and you'll be on the fast track to youth and beauty!'

[quote]...it's jarring to see her this way.

Which way?

Being trolled with an unflattering gotcha photo as he facial expression changed?

What is wrong with you?

I recently re-watched the entire first season of The Crown and while I enjoyed it even more, all those extraordinary performances that convince you you're watching the real people (I'm American!), the episodes focusing on Princess Margaret's romances were a bit of a bore.

I agree R69. As we talk about what an unpredictable rude self indulgent woman she was in real life, I have to wonder at the scenes we saw in The Crown of all the partying they did in her apartments. In spite of her nasty disposition it seems she did belong to "a set" and she had friends. Or am I missing something?

R41 no one expects the products of centuries of inbreeding to look like movie stars.

r71, then why is there all this criticism here of Margaret and her daughter's looks?

Because regardless what explains their origins, they're ugly.

I wouldn’t say Lady Sarah is unattractive. She reminds me of artistic reconstructions of Early European Hunter-Gatherers, with strong and striking features. Interestingly, the same traits that appear somewhat coarse and rugged on her translate to a very attractive, masculine look in Arthur.

Sarah is apparently liked by everybody. When she used to visit the Queen at Buckingham Palace she would arrive by foot or on her bicycle. She is present at every big royal event, weddings, coronations, funerals, Sandringham at Christmas, Balmoral in the summer.

She had a joint 21st birthday party with Prince Edward and another royal at Buckingham Palace, her guests were all fellow students from her university.

I read that she accepted from a young age that her mother wasn’t maternal, it is well known that Margaret used to dump her and her brother off at Buckingham Palace with the Queen whilst she went off galavanting in London with her husband. Apparently the only rebellious thing Sarah ever did was to move in with her boyfriend before they married, which outraged her mother.

Sarah and her family, along with Zara and her family (and there respective brothers) are prime examples of the fabulous life Meghan and Harry could have had if only they hadn’t been such a pair of jealous, nasty, vindictive lazy grifting cunts. They enjoy all of the good things that come their way by being part of the family, without any of the day to day stuff.

When you think about it Sarah could easily have been a bit fucked up. Her grandparents were the King and Queen, her aunt was the Queen for 70 years, her mother a princess, her cousin is the King. She was the last royal baby to be born inside a royal palace. And yet she’s still only 60 and lives a private and anonymous life with her husband and two sons. There has never been a single whisper of and drama about her.

The Chatto brothers couldn't be more different. The older brother is the artistic and seemingly sensitive one (and pocket-sized). Scroll down for picture with his girlfriend and parents

[QUOTE]Samuel David Benedict Chatto (born 28 July 1996), 30th in the line of succession as of January 2025. He studied at Eton, and went on to study history of art at the University of Edinburgh, and works as a sculptor, based in West Sussex.[19] He also completed yoga teacher training in India.[20]

She looks inbred.

R75 Very true. Sarah seems very grounded when you consider her grandmother was the Queen. I suppose in such a position you can go one of two ways and thankfully she went the 'better' of the two.

I also recall Princess Margaret wanting her children to have more privacy and encouraging them to pursue their own careers, given they weren't technically members of the Royal Family (if you take the very strict definition of the Royal Family as being those who have royal duties). So I suppose from an early age they realised they'd have to get their own jobs which probably helped them stay more grounded.

suppose from an early age they realised they'd have to get their own jobs…like 99.9 percent of the reader of us? What a bold choice on their part.

Never has more idiotic bullshit been written on the DL than about the Windsors. The soap threads are worthy of PhD theses by comparison.

*rest of us

R76 Both Chatto brothers are undeniably on the short side. Sam comes in at 5'6". Arthur, the pocket-sized powerhouse, tops out at 5'7"

R79 I wasn't trying to make getting their own jobs sound like a hardship, I was just explaining why Sarah Chatto seems more grounded than many might expect. After all, some children in the same position could have been snobby, precocious, pretentious, etc.

Again, giving praise for what the rest of us do every day. It’s badly written satire at this pint.

R72, because it's DL.

The Royal family are not Kardashians. They don't live under the plastic surgeon's knife or spend their days looking in the mirror.

Vicious queens tearing apart this total stranger over her looks and her family background.

Who is Sarah Chatto as a PERSON? As a mother? As a charity patron?

Why can't you dusty old cunts judge her on her deeds and her life, rather than her appearance at the age of 60? To hell with her for aging, I guess.

[quote]They don't live under the plastic surgeon's knife or spend their days looking in the mirror.

That's really Brits in general, not just the Royal Family. Brits aren't obsessed with cosmetic surgery the way Americans are.

And it shows

Anne and Oliver Messel were my grandfather's cousins and they all ran around together in the 20s. My grandfather had nothing good to say about Anne. Her portrayal in The Crown fits right in with his stories. He rather liked Oliver.

Anne who, r89?

Snowden's mother. Simultaneously bitchy and porcine in the same look. She's a wonder.

[quote]Snowden's mother.

As I recall, an ice-maiden. Never visited Snowden when as a youth he was hospitalised with polio.

Would you want walk into a room full of iron lungs and deadly contagion.

She’s sounds like any other Brit twit mother of her generation. You bear a child, and then you can’t bear them any longer.

Why does DL never mention Snowden's other children, the ones he had before and after his kids with Margaret, i.e. Polly Fry, Lady Frances von Hofmannsthal and Jasper Cable-Alexander?

Has much been written about them? I know he had a pregnant lover when he married Margaret.

Lady Frances von Hofmannsthal and Jasper Cable-Alexander

You can’t make this shit up! Why does anyone take these people seriously?

R95 Entire books have been written about Snowdon. He was a bisexual artiste.

Blips I recall about Snowdon. The bisexual designer David Hicks boasted to bisexual Snowdon that he would be marrying the daughter of bisexual Earl Mountbatten. Snowdon said, "Oh, I don't call that a good match." Very soon afterwards, it was announced that Anthony Armstrong-Jones (as he then was) would be marrying The Queen's sister. Game set and match!

Snowdon (as he then became), was keen to have fellow bisexual Old Etonian Jeremy Thorpe as the Best Man at his coup of a wedding. Enquiries by powers that be were made, and it was reported back to Snowdon that his choice would best be reconsidered. Decades later, Liberal party leader Jeremy Thorpe was at The Old Bailey, facing charges of attempted murder against his former lover Norman Scott.

So many gays and bisexuals in one family line! Makes you wonder about the proclivities of the Chatto boys and also that of their hawt cousin Charles Armstrong-Jones

She looks bad in the OP photo because she was wearing very little makeup. Her eyebrows were almost invisible without enhancement. Sans fard she looked anemic.

Menopause is cruel, but Datalounge is crueller still

I bet this is what Wintour looks like under the hair and sunglasses.

To R98-Hugh Grant plays Jeremy Thorpe in the 1st season and Ben Whislaw plays the scorned ex-lover. Called A Very English Scandal.

I just looked Norman Scott up. He's so still alive!

[quote]I just looked Norman Scott up. He's so still alive!

Only because the gun of Thorpe's hired hitman jammed. Norman Scott's dog Rinka wasn't so lucky...

Norman Scott was/is quite a piece of work. He'd be a porn star/hustler/grifter nowadays and not live til the ripe old age of 84.

^^^He never got his national health card either^^^

In 1960 when I was a wee gayling in the 5th grade (yes, I'm 76!), my teacher was all in a flutter about Princess Margaret's marriage, talked about it in anticipation for weeks, and brought her little b&w TV set into our class on the day of the wedding so we could all watch the ceremonies in real time.

Of course, it was really so she could watch. I can still vividly remember her breathless narration of all that transpired on the TV screen that most of the class, me excepted, weren't interested in. Honestly, I was almost as entranced as Miss Leonardo was that afternoon, probably my first introduction to the Royal Family!

Sarah was at Wimbledon yesterday, front row of the royal enclosure. I wonder why she doesn’t wear makeup, or at least makeup that looks as if she is wearing something.

Jodie Foster is a tennis fan? Color me shocked...

Sarah needs more than a little makeup.

Sarah Chatto takes the no-nonsense look too far. It’s like she’s cosplaying it in the photo at R109. She’s at an event where she knows she will be photographed. There’s not looking like a Kardashian or Lauren Sanchez, but that doesn’t mean Amish. I understand wanting low maintenance, but she is dying her hair anyway, so why not add a few highlights, do an angled side part, and get some very subtle brow micro blading? None of that would create additional fuss in her day to day. And put a pair of small diamond or pearl studs in.

What more do you cunty queens want of this woman? She's not a "working royal," oxymoron that that is. She's not a staple of the tabloids or of the straight press. She's merely related to those people.

She has her own little life and family, and is widely regarded as a grounded and kind-hearted member of the extended celebrity family.

She's also over 60, and well past the age of impressing strangers with her makeup regimen.

R113: She's an aristocrat. If you're going to punch, then punch up. These people have plenty of undeserved privilege.

R114 Let's see YOUR ugly ass in the sunlight at Wimbledon. Then we'll talk.

I'm sure compared to your meatball-stained caftan and bottle-blonde combover, Sarah Chatto is a fucking supermodel.

She should try makeup.

R115: I suspect you're the one in the caftan. Wasting your time defending some useless aristrocrat whose aging badly.

LOL r115! Don't forget the hair plugs, orange spray tan and rings on every finger.

It's an upper-class, upper-bohemia, Oxbridge intellectual, eastern seaboard old-money look, not over-exposed amid the amplified narcissism of most photographed celebrity life. It says, 'Trying too hard is just so mistakenly vulgar!' A pleasant contrast.

R117 You're bitter that you weren't born into an interesting family, and it's clearly made you a drunken illiterate.

I'm not saying it's right - but I could understand why Margaret turned into such a bitchy alcoholic. Deemed far less important than her sister - just because of birth order. It would make you very insecure about yourself - particularly at a time when women didn't have professions, particularly not of her class.

She flexed (in a bad way) what little power she had. I understand it - although I'm not saying it makes it right.

R120 = Arthur, revealing his inner 💅 beneath that macho Royal Marine exterior

Except that she does look like she’s trying too hard, R119. She trying too hard to look like she’s not trying. The immaculate pressed white shirt is a great look, but it’s not effortless. No makeup is a non-issue. Gray hair hair would be a non-issue. But to dye your hair mousy brown and then leave it hanging limply behind your ears from a middle part seems like an attempt. The photo in the OP is unflattering, but her hair is styled, she is wearing at least a pale lipstick, and she has earrings on. Very low key, but not the studied, cosplaying low key in R109. It’s off-putting.

R123 Trying too hard FOR WHAT?

She doesn't make her living on her looks? Who gives a fuck how her makeup looks? What are you gonna do, fire her? Refuse to buy her next album?

If any part of the Crown was accurate, I think Margaret never really got over her father's death. And then add to that the Queen's denial of Townsend. She was bitter.

Bitter, party of one.

"If any part of The Crown was accurate..."

Let me stop you right there.

Personally, I think The Crown was the best PR piece ever granted to the Royal Family. Yeah maybe some stuff wasn't 100% accurate - but what is?

The timing of it with E2's last living years provided a reminder of how long and how dedicated she had been to her job. It also painted all the royal family as real people with faults and trying to do the best they can under situations they can't always control.

There's plenty of corroboration for most of the plot points. Hell, even within the Royal Family, I'm sure you're bound to get 10 different perspectives on any subject or event that happened.

The Crown was fine up until it became the "Diana" show. By that point, the casting was off and the story veered to much toward soap.

I thought the Diana casting was excellent. Especially the last Diana. Elizabeth Debicki was perfect.

It became very campy Lifetime movie by the last few series, when it was catching up to real time

Whatever - their lives WERE a Lifetime movie - they had all their dirt out in the press unlike in previous generations. So yeah - there weren't huge revelations because the rotten British press were all over them, hounding them - particularly Diana.

It's a solid series all the way through.

The really scandalous dirt happened during previous kingships. Edward VIII's abdication and the set Wallis hung out with partied and swapped partners, etc. and weekends at fancy estates, but no one seems to talk about the brother who was a drug addict or the one who "dabbled" in the homosex. There is so much dirt in previous generations it makes Charles Camilla, Diana, William, and Harry look quaint. The only current royal who truly lives up to the term, "scandalous behavior" is Andrew. He is a pig.

Truly, nothing the Mountbatten-Windsors have done compares to the Children of Her Serene Highness Grace of Monaco. Well, maybe Lord Mountbatten's wife having an affair with Nehru when he was Governor General of India.....

Nehru was Governor-General?! You learn the most interesting “facts” on DL.

I bet she’s a smoker.

Oh, no! Not THAT!

R135, I think the poster means the rumours from when Mountbatten was Governor-General.

The Queen Mother couldn’t stand a Mountbatten. a’s 1960 funeral and burial at sea were broadcast on the BBC. The Queen Mother went home after the funeral and watched the burial on TV, remarking, “Oh my, a did always like to make a splash.”

I think the poster needs Strunk & White.

Oh that’s right we can’t post Mrs. Mountbatten’s first name- it’s “E D W I N A.”

Mountbatten was Governor General. Don't be obtuse. He was charged with transitioning the British withdrawal and Indian independence.

Tell it to the poster who wrote Nehru…when HE was G-G.

Mountbatten diddled troubled Northern Irish boys. Even if the Windsors didn't know that, some of them probably knew him for the weasel he was.

Even makeup has its limits

To R 144-Is that way they blew him up?

r144 Lord Mountbatten had affairs with grown ass men too from time to time. He was Bi...sort of. a knew of his attraction to men, and she had her affairs too. They were quite modern in their way. I had not heard of him diddling very young Irish boys. But he may have diddled young Irish men . I think that it was a well known secret that he had his "idiosyncrasies."

Andrew Lownie's biography 'The Mountbattens' discusses Dickie's need for very young men, to an extent never before broached in print.

Minors, not "very young men". He also was an inept administrator in India. Basically, your icky, pervie uncle crossed with the one with bad political ideas.

What did he not administer? The partition was going to happen, and make a mess, no matter who was there.

I have a question....are there any orthodontists in the entire UK? If so, why don't these fugly royals get their smiles fixed? It's not like they can't afford it. Even Harry has a big ugly gap between his front teeth. Really? Invisalign anyone?

R143 has a limited grasp of English sentence structure patterns.

^ in your reply, the word pattern is superfluous.

Not really, r153, because there is more than one correct form of English sentence structure. The same sentence can be constructed in different ways and still be correct. So, it is about patterns rather than one strict structure.

Zzzzzzz