London-bound Air India plane crashes in Ahmedabad

My husband JUST got back from India (we're in London) this morning a few hours before this happened. Horrible. I feel for all the families of those on board.

The footage is horrifying.

RIP to all those aboard.

Omg, your husband was THIS close to certain death, r1. Don't let it go to his head, though – people like that sometimes become megalomaniacal, thinking they were spared for some larger purpose.

Anyway, this is awful. Now we wait for the crew manifest. William Dalrymple better not have been fucking on it, he flies back and forth all the time.

I hope no celebrities were affected.

53 Brits DEAD.

^^^Real Brits?

Another plane crash for Trump -mazel tov

Boeing rush order hurried along by musk rat.

Crashed into a hostel, per BBC just now.

Seven Portuguese and one Canadian, in addition to the Brits.

It says the injured are being taken to the hospital. I assume those are the people that were in or close to the hostel at the time.

Clip of the plane going down.

[quote]Another plane crash for Trump

Can we blame this on Trump? Obviously he's fucked up air travel in the US but India-to-England flights should be safe from him.

Oh thanks R12 I was so worried a out Trumps reputation

Fuck me? I'm just trying to clarify what he's capable of. I could be wrong, it's not even 7am yet.

You'll notice I did say he's fucked up air travel, but you think I'm trying to help his reputation?

Some of you need to relax. Have a Coke and a smile.

[quote] This Air India crash is the first time a Boeing 787 aircraft has come down like this.

[quote] The model was launched 14 years ago and just six few weeks ago the planemaker lauded the fact the model, also known as the Dreamliner, has reached the milestone of carrying 1bn passengers.

[quote] To mark that occasion the company said the global 787 fleet of more than 1,175 airplanes has flown nearly 5 million flights covering more than 30 million flight hours.

They really are the most cursed company imaginable. 14 years of no issue, they celebrate how safe it is and suddenly mass tragedy ensues.

Congrats Air Bus

Bring back fast ships

Crashed into a medical school hostel.

Terrible.

I never would have been on an Air India flight.

That fire screen behind Mary Schiavo is strange and distracting.

Buck would never have been on that flight.

Planes crash-thats how they're made safer. Those brave “Brits’” gave their lives so we can safely fly to next year’s family reunion.

Fuck you and your quotation marks R22

Another Boeing, eh? Qatar, if you're listening, I hope you know what you have to do, so do it!

“ “

Personally, I'd rather die in Islamabad than in Gatwick. It sounds much more exotic.

But they didn't die in either, did they, R26?

It's Ahmedabad, not Islamabad. Totally different country. The distance between the two is like the distance between London and Rome, or NYC and Chicago.

Confirmed no survivors, per AFP.

This is going to be felt all over the UK. We have long established Gujurati communities in many of our major cities. The footage is horrific.

DL has many Trump supporters. It’s wonderful.

That video seems to show that the flaps and slats were not extended for take off. Holy shit.

Yeah. Right about now they’re feeling pretty good over at Airbus.

I remember I was excited the first time I was able to fly a Dreamliner. I’m not saying this was the cause at all - but I was surprised how poorly it handled turbulence. It’s made of a lighter material and it’s much smaller than the 777 on the inside.

[quote] Bring back fast ships

Fast ship? You've never heard of the Millennium Falcon? It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs!

r7 Why J. Bruce Ismay is that you?

Planes climb up when they take off. This plane doesn’t look like it was climbing at all. It looked like it was going in for a landing.

There has been a report of at least one survivor.

40 year old guy injured says explosion 30 sec. in?

Rishi Sunak sends condolences. He's. still cute at 45 yrs.

[quote] Planes climb up when they take off. This plane doesn’t look like it was climbing at all. It looked like it was going in for a landing.

It was crashing.

How does one survive this, that's crazy.

That sure was a funny looking crash. Based on what they were showing on the news, it did look like it was coming in for a landing.

But maybe the angles and speed and altitude were all completely off. No idea. It looked like a hell of an explosion, though when it hit the ground.

[quote] video seems to show that the flaps and slats were not extended for take off

I've seen similar comments in other forums as well. If they were not as they should be, are there alarms/bells warning the pilots? Unless that system is malfunctioning.

That why I hate takeoffs.

[quote]According to media reports, the sole survivor of the crash was 40-year-old Vishwash Kumar Ramesh, a British-Indian, who lives in London and was in Ahmedabad visiting family. He said he had lived in London for the past 20 years and had travelled to India with his brother who was also on the plane. “Thirty seconds after take off, there was a loud noise and then the plane crashed.

Doesn't sound like a pilot error to me, but we'll see.

Weeeeeee’ll seeeeeeeee!

🎶 Ahmedabad, Do Doo, De Doo Doo.

Ahmedabad, Doo Doo De Doo

Ahmedabad, Do Doo De Doo Doo

Dee Do Do, De Doo Do 🎶

The worst part? Knowing it is happening ….

r38 It was presumably taking off when it crashed it only made it 625 feet before coming back down.

They were all going to die anyway

An aviation forum I follow is saying that the plane took almost the entire 11000 foot runway to get airborne and was traveling at too slow a speed, causing it to stall immediately after takeoff. There was either a major engine failure, possibly the flaps weren't extended, the plane was overloaded and too heavy, or there was pilot error. Regardless, they should have aborted and not attempted to lift off. "Bad fuel" was also mentioned as a possibility.

Prune.org usually has the best discussions.

Pprune.org

Thank you, come again!

Ahmedabad, Islamabad. Whatev.

Poor guys, R53. I hope their little Mitzi will be well cared for.

I got a news alert on my phone a few minutes ago reporting they did find one survivor.

R20, she's still alive? Hasn't she been a vegetable for the last 20 years?

This is so much like that 1979 Fight 191 at O'Hare. The fact that even one person survived this is a true MIRACLE.

Someone on reddit posted a short aftermath video and its just burnt bodies- horrific.

I keep seeing videos of a guy they say was the sole survivor - in seat 11A.

Oh no, R53, they're so cute.

[quote]This is so much like that 1979 Fight 191 at O'Hare. The fact that even one person survived this is a true MIRACLE.

Flight 191’s engine literally came off the plane. It was attributed to poor maintenance practices at American Airlines.

It’s only similar to this crash in that it happened immediately after takeoff.

Oops.

Wi Tu Slo

He sat in sear 11A. First seat in economy on a Dreamliner, at the leading edge of the wing, just before the fuels tanks. Forward momentum yanked him out, away from the fire and thus he survived. Everybody in the rear was fried upon impact.

That's where I always try to sit. At the beginning of the wing, Also much better in turbulence.

^ seat 11A

11A was supposedly right next to an exit door.

[quote] He sat in sear

Sear is what happened to the other passengers.

[quote] the plane was overloaded and too heavy

Was Chrissy Metz and her snack purse on board?

[quote]The couple ran The Wellness Foundry in south London and Ramsgate, Kent, which offers psychic readings, tarot, Reiki and yoga. It has collaborated with brands including Dior, Google, and Netflix.

Fiongal Greenlaw-Meek, "Fashion Designer turned Spiritual Advisor", was offering psychic readings and Edina Monsoon was totally his most obnoxious advisee...

"Fiongal, what should I wear tomorrow on the ski runs for my first day at Val d'Isere? I'm thinking camouflage ski suit. But at the same time I want people to see me."

"Fiongal, Fiongal, where are you? Why don't you take my call? My car was towed away to the car clamp club again and I don't know what to do... Should I call an Uber or a taxi? I get mixed vibes either way. Please call me back, darling! I'm at my wit's end and It's started to rain"

Then hanging up distressed and mouthing words that sound like shakra prayers: "Ting ting ding ling dind ting ling".

[quote]That's where I always try to sit.

Economy?? I’d rather die.

R74 Embarrassing.

Yes R42 we all know it crashed. My point being that from the very start there was some mechanical something preventing it from climbing.planes are usually much higher at that point - and it just glided to the ground and exploded. It seemed to be doomed from the very beginning.

I stand corrected, R71.

At least you stand, r78.

Takeoff should have been aborted. They were not moving fast enough to lift off. Pilot error.

Not sure there's any "best" seat when a plane falls from the sky. It's all about luck.

[quote] The Wellness Foundry

Huh the websites still up. Guess that answers the is he really psychic question.

Perhaps it was a double bird strike? There is apparently a large problem with birds around that airport. The lone survivor heard a huge bang 30 seconds after take-off (which probably rules out incorrect wing configuration as an issue). One expert thought that the way the plane descended indicated neither engine was working.

Alex Padilla being manhandled has upstaged 787 crash.

[quote]Perhaps it was a double bird strike?

The chances of birds striking both engines are slim. And it doesn’t explain why the plane took the entire runway to rotate and lift off. There were major problems on the takeoff roll that weren’t recognized by the pilots who should have aborted.

Air India is a relatively known airline and obviously flies every day without incident.

However, I always feel a bit of apprehension booking on certain airlines that aren't top tier in foreign countries. Makes me nervous - even though it probably shouldn't.

Doesn't mean this could have all been a 1 in a million accident, but I can't shake my bias that some airlines in other countries don't have the same safety and check protocols as the larger airlines.

[quote]Perhaps it was a double bird strike?

That happened to the USAirways flight at LaGuardia. Captain Sully was able to successfully land it in the river with no fatalities.

I'm going to amend my post at R83. It seems like incorrect wing configuration, either for the take-off or straight afterwards (mistakenly retracting the flaps instead of the wheels, as would be normal), may be a likely cause for the crash. The engines appear to be intact (no flame outs) and no flocks of birds are visible in the footage I've seen.

r80 why don't we let the NTSB and other investigative bodies do their due diligence. Unless, of course, you must be a aviation HOBBYIST who thinks they know everything.

Comments like yours really burn my ass. You have 0 qualifications (of this I'm sure), but to just say "pilot error." Get over yourself.

I was on a flight out of England 20+ years ago and a bird got sucked into an engine on takeoff. The engine went out but luckily we weren't far out and they made an emergency landing. It was terrifying. After we landed, I made a bee line to the closest bar. 🍸

Jesus Christ just learning/realizing that it hit a building as well-

A medical building…

[quote] After we landed, I made a bee line to the closest bar. 🍸

My beeline would have been to the nearest toilet.

Good god R92- I will look more into this later- I have seen the photos of friends prior to boarding, and Indian family with 3 little kids all on the plane prior to take off- This life and world is just a straight up -BITCH-.

Was surprised to hear Air India owns 36 Dreamliners. Many airlines own more but 36 is a lot and since 2014 no problems???

[quote]mistakenly retracting the flaps instead of the wheels, as would be normal), may be a likely cause for the crash

I’ve seen that possibility mentioned several times…that the pilots mistakenly retracted the flaps instead of retracting the landing gear, which should have been done immediately after takeoff. The landing gear is clearly still down in the crash videos.

The lone survivor said a loud bang went off 30 sec into take off?

Boeing recently celebrated 1 billion passengers flying Dreamliner. Just one of those things.

R2.

I think the ‘’bang’’ whatever it was severed hydraulics -No lifting landing gear-no engines-no flaps.

If only Air India had access to some of the aviation experts on this thread the crash could have been avoided.

The plane wouldn't have crashed if I had been aboard

Family sent selfie shortly before fatal crash

R19 = Buck

These videos and pictures recorded minutes before people die are creepy. Another reason not to be on social media.

The survivor walked from the crash. WTF!!

Not feeling this episode of Lost

Wow, I would think a lone survivor amongst hundreds is a rarity isn't it? And it seems with minor injuries only. Nothing short of a miracle.

Oh he’s a very Lucky man. I just ordered a pint of his blood.

Didn't read the whole thread but have been following this all day. The 787 is almost indestructible and I've been on that plane many times. Something got in the way of them gaining enough thrust to take off, birds, tech issues. A passenger was tweeting just before take off that many of the systems, video, lights, etc. were not working. This was not a bomb or terrorists. I love that plane, it's huge and you don't even feel the take off or landing.

I'm afraid the passengers didn't even know what happened to them as the plane just took off. They would not even been aware. So awful.

The passengers had 5 - 10 seconds of sheer terror. And absolutely awful way to go.

Yes- basically the moment where they realized that something was "off"- the plane clearly gained very little speed/altitude and then slowly dropped-- there were likely 10 seconds of confusion and panic.

Almost 300 people gone.

Life is a giant mystery.

They didn't even have a chance to process what was about to happen. On the 787 it's really hard to feel the take off or even if there is some anomaly. For those who haven't been on one, it's gigantic. The seats have shoulder straps. I really torn up about the passengers.

[quote] Wi Tu Slo

Yup - Ho Lee Fuk

Usually on the 787 I'm more concerned about when we get to 10,000 feet and drinks and meals can be served. I really want to know what happened here. This plane flies itself.

You couldn't pay me to go to India. Maybe death in a plane crash is better than having to be there

Yes R115 the jokes about funny foreign names are a DL classic for a particular type of stupid poster who doesn’t, for instance, realise that India, China and South Korea are separate countries, and couldn’t identify any of these on a map. But they’re all Asian, right?

Then there’s the whole 290+ death toll. Too funny!

Why are some Americans so proud of their ignorance?

R117 India is the world’s largest democracy, so there’s that, as opposed to your country - hardly a shining beacon of democracy right now, is it?

Besides, you don’t have a passport, so I doubt that you’ll need to decide not to visit any other country any time soon.

Enjoy life in your square state.

R119. India is a shithole and I'm not from Arkansas. Both things can be true.

When were you last in India, R120?

That is so sad.

Also what the fuck is up with Boeing? Can we get high engineering regulations, standards, EVERYTHING! TOO MANY GODDAMN PLANES ARE CRASHING OUT OF THE SKY!

REGULATE MUTHAFUCKA!

Imagine a fucking pigeon could bring a whole plane down. There needs to be anti-birdstrike tech. One muthafucking pigeon.

R38 “Planes climb up when they take off”.

Such insight.

[quote] If only Air India had access to some of the aviation experts on this thread the crash could have been avoided.

Air India middle manager

That lone survivor ought to be saying Hail Vishnus until Madonna has a hit movie.

No, R127 - you are mistaken. I’m not sure where you got your “sounds like a Muslim area of India” nonsense from so I’m assuming that you’re American and are naturally just ill-informed, but Ahmedabad is largely Hindu.

Hinduism and Islam are two different religions. This may come as a surprise to you.

Is it any wonder that the rest of the world laughs at you Americans for your stupidity?

I would pay great money to see white American cunts like R117 in India!!

The plane was 12 years old. At that point, any manufacturing or design errors are likely not a cause. I suspect that, if there was something wrong with the plane, it was because of poor maintenance. From flight logs, it looks like it was in and out of service for possible maintenance issues. NTSB will be part of the investigation team because a Boeing was involved and a preliminary report may be out in a month or so. Some people hear the RAT (Ram Air Turbine) sound, which would indicate both engines failed. It is possible that there was fuel contamination. But, there is nothing right now to indicate pilot error. If both engines failed for some reason, then the only thing a pilot could do is maintain best glide, which is exactly what it looks like they were doing. You can see in the video where the lift stops and the glide starts. Early conjecture that they took off from an intersection or that the flaps/slats were not positioned has been discounted. So, I will wait for the preliminary report and send up a good karmic thought for the pilots. If it sucks to be a pax on a doomed flight, it has to be exponentially worse to be trying to fly the plane.

Rememtwhen someone said is was all the h1b visas making Boeing terrible? They haven't hired very many so that's not the case

Rememtwhen someone said is was all the h1b visas making Boeing terrible? They haven't hired very many so that's not the case

One black box has been found.

R132, I've never heard anyone claim that, perhaps it's just one whacko that you came across online. But the plane that crashed was made 14 years ago so the visa data you cite is irrelevant.

A more serious criticism is that of outsourcing supply chains in an effort to cut costs.

To illustrate r134.

[quote]Boeing’s foray into extensive outsourcing introduced a level of complexity that would test the resilience and adaptability of its supply chain. With over 50 suppliers from around the globe contributing to the 787 Dreamliner, coordination and quality control became Herculean tasks.

I’m going to try to fly mainly or Airbus planes. Safety is more important than nationalism.

Good idea R136! You might want to avoid airlines from the USA as well - their track record lately has been a tad spotty.

[quote]I’m going to try to fly mainly or Airbus planes. Safety is more important than nationalism.

Good call.

Any links to Airbus flights that have resulted in fatalities or serious injuries in recent years, r138?

r130 thank you for your intelligent and coherent post. There are many factors at play, and until the NTSB and local investigative agencies start their inquiries, everything else is conjecture, mostly by armchair aviation "experts".

I feel so bad for that gay couple..... I'm glad they had a great time on their trip.

I feel awful for them, r141. Those last horrible moments.

Saw a video a couple hours ago, A passenger on a previous flight of that plane filmed a clip showing the lights were out, no air con, and the in flight movie system wasn’t working for him (looked like it worked for the person sitting in front of him). Sorry, no link I was randomly clicking on YouTube.

R138, coincidentally, I was reading an article about the Airbus A220 earlier today. It's actually a plane developed by Bombardier, not Airbus. It's the only Airbus commercial aircraft program managed outside of Europe. They're assembled in Quebec and Alabama. Being another North American plane, maybe it should be avoided too.

Interview with the lone survivor:

[quote]the in flight movie system wasn’t working

Oh, the humanity!

R115 here I did not mean any disrespect to anyone that may have been killed on that flight or their relations. I fell very deeply for everyone., they did not deserve any of this. They just bought a ticket on a plane and expected to arrive safely. All i meant was I'm an aviation nerd and understand how planes work. No disrespect ever intended.

R147, don't sweat it.

And do you know what awful little website you're posting at exactly? This is par for the course.

Thank you R148

I watched the gay couple on Instagram in their last video at the airport. They were very funny and very much -alive-... Its becoming more and more apparent to me how much of "us" really is our eternal spirit. (Like what I saw of them in their video) I think the body and ego are very cunning. They were very charming and funny. I hope that they are truly somewhere wonderful that makes this place look like the hellscape it actually is. RIP fellas-

R147- Gallows humor is a real thing and the more fucked up the better. Life is viciously cruel, and you really can laugh at it.

R134 oh our own president, for one! Blamed diversity, dei, women, basically anyone not a white male for the problems in aviation.

Yes, R136 - it’s always “foreign” anything that is otherwise to be avoided. You do realise, don’t you, that in every country on the planet other than the USA, that you are foreign, don’t you?

Of course you don’t.

It's pretty noticeable that almost all, if not all, the fatal aircraft accidents of recent years have involved Boeings and the problems within Boeing as a company are also widely acknowledged.

At least Boeings aren’t built in China like some Airbus now are.

I don't know if anyone posted this video of Captain Steve. He believes when one pilot told the other to retract the landing gear, he actually retracted the flaps. The combination of the loss of lift from the retracted flaps and the huge drag of the landing gear doomed the plane. He's ephematic that this is just one possibility out of several, but he explains why other theories (loss of power, contaminated fuel, bird strike) do not appear to have been the case.

Most of the Boeing crashes were due to pilot error, which will ultimately turn out to be the case here too.

Captain Steve points out that the Boeing 787 has a stellar safety record.

I’ve heard that Airbus planes have more built-in “nanny” systems that can override a pilot mistake.

I like Captain Steve but I think he jumped the gun here. The RAT was definitely out, which indicates a sudden power loss due to dual engine shutdown. Software glitch (horrible) or (in)intentional shutdown (ditto), we will soon know.

From Boeing's perspective, the pilot's inability to monitor and manage an unmanageable amount of information being spewed at the pilot, to understand that the information being spewed means "execute the 21 items from Checklist 817.02.1931(b)", and to complete that in 5 seconds = "pilot error" which = "MCAS".

RAT? R159

Ripped

And

Torn

[quote] Ripped And Torn

I loved him on The Larry Sanders Show!

R159, nevermind. Ram Air Turbine deployed automatically if there is a power loss.

A catastrophic double engine failure. Yikes!

^^^Highly unlikely. Also, it took up practically every last inch of the runway to get airborne. This is not normal. Something was going on from the get-go. The engines seemed to be functioning because they kicked up a lot of dust as it lifted off.

Pilot suicide/mass murder is always a possibility.

I kinda lean toward that too^^^

It took off complete normally , R166. Like all other flights with that code before. Please consult pprune.org, go to the “Accidents and Close Calls” thread.

What the fuck is “pprune”?? I’m not clicking on that shit.

I knew somehow somewhere someone would find a way to blame this crash on Trump.

R159, Captain Steve just posted a new video and agrees with you. He's changed his mind. He, too, believes it was a dual engine failure, citing the deployment of the RAT as primary evidence, along with other evidence.

Capt. Steve is slipping. This engineer (whose channel I discovered during the Surfside condo collapse) immediately noted deployment of the RAT in a video posted two days ago.

R117-you are hilarious-still laughing.

Of course the only survivor was a 40-year-old older millennial men.

We're the cockroach generation.

Sorry guys, " pprune.org: is the "Professionals Pilot's Rumors Network", in my opinion the best message board on aviation and a fascinating look behind its curtains.

I always go there when a bad accident happens. In a weird way, it calms me down and makes me less nervous about flying (which I do a lot).

There's s lot of pointless bitchery too but they try to keep it professional. They have mods. You have to sign up and show some credentials to post but everybody can read.

Some of the participants get as cranky and bitchy as Dataloungers when unprofessional, misleading, and idiotic content is posted.

Pretty sure there are Dataloungers on Pprune and vice versa....

R173, Jeff Ostroff is definitely a Datalounger. We are always a step ahead.

Loss of power on takeoff, how often does that happen? The RAT deploys automatically to run the electronics.

Almost never, which is why this is so scary. As Captain Steve said, this is as heavy as the aircraft is ever going to be.

R117 is Robin Quivers

"However, by the earlier 15th century, the local Muslim governor Zafar Khan Muzaffar established his independence from the Delhi Sultanate and crowned himself Sultan of Gujarat as Muzaffar Shah I, thereby founding the Muzaffarid dynasty. In 1411, the area came under the control of his grandson, Sultan Ahmed Shah, who selected the forested area along the banks of the Sabarmati river for his new capital. He laid the foundation of a new walled city near Karnavati and named it Ahmedabad after himself. According to other versions, he named the city after four Muslim saints in the area who all had the name Ahmed"

They should have called tech support.

[quote]They should have called tech support.

They did but the wait time to speak to a representative was estimated to be 40 minutes.

'Nothing is working': Air India passenger posts viral video of doomed plane

Lone survivor of Air India crash reveals final moments inside plane

Wow-On Dreamliners dreams really can come true…

The only way to fly.

Up up and away.

Terrible crash but I appreciate the opportunity to hear from our old friend Mary Schiavo. She’s so knowledgeable and she recently remarried (3rd time) and everyone who knows her says she is a very sweet person. Mazel Mary!

Love your name r189.

R189- She also got an amazing face lift a few years back and looked incredible (I have not seen interviews with her in a few years)

I have loved her ever since she spoke about the Alaska Airlines crash from 2000.

She was visibly moved, with tears in her eyes when she said what those passengers experienced was unfathomable.

She was genuinely kind, incredibly knowledgeable and I have always respected her since.

(And those two pilots deserve to be remembered- Two composed and ACE pilots who flew that motherfucker upside down-)

Expect 11A to be booked all the time now- somebody connected another crash survivor (also Air India) from 1998 who sat in 11A.

Yeah Schiavo’s great and I’m willing to overlook the 1999 incident at Columbus airport-nobody’s perfect.

Unbelievable New Video Shows Sole Survivor Calmly Walk Away From Flaming Air India Wreckage

I saw the news tonight that the emergency power was on. What does that mean, DL aviation experts?

It means the engines were out. It could be they failed, it could be a bird strike, it could be bad maintenance practices, or it could be pilot error.

The next round of "Mayday: Air Disasters" will clear it all up.

R195 If both engines lose power a small turbine fan drops out of the underbelly into the air stream and provides essential power in an emergency, although in this case it probably wasn’t much use as the pilots only had a few hundred feet to recover.

Ram Air Turbine - “RAT”.

In a “both engines out” scenario, you need an experienced pilot like Sully who can glide it to a smooth landing. The landing gear was still down in this case, ffs.

Dual engine power loss is exceedingly rare. I don't remember it ever being a cause for a crash except for the Hudson River crash.

R200 the AI pilot was experienced. Oh, I see - you meant “American”.

The Boeing whistle-blower who committed suicide (or did he?) was particularly concerned about the dreadful quality of these particular planes. Workers constantly left random parts inside engines because they had to meet production deadlines. A worker who confronted a Boeing official about this was told to relax, the planes were never going to be used in the U.S.

[quote]Dual engine power loss is exceedingly rare. I don't remember it ever being a cause for a crash except for the Hudson River crash.

It was sort of the cause of this crash. “Fuel starvation due to ice crystals” to both Rolls Royce engines was the official cause.

R204, I doubt ice crystals was an issue for a take off in India. Just sayin.

It looks like the fuel switches were shut off which doomed the plane. From the WSJ

The investigation into last month’s Air India crash is focusing on the actions of the jet’s pilots and doesn’t so far point to a problem with the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, according to people familiar with U.S. officials’ early assessments.

Preliminary findings indicate that switches controlling fuel flow to the jet’s two engines were turned off, leading to an apparent loss of thrust shortly after takeoff, the people said. Pilots use the switches to start the jet’s engines, shut them down, or reset them in certain emergencies.

The switches would normally be on during flight, and it is unclear how or why they were turned off, these people said. The people also said it was unclear whether the move was accidental or intentional, or whether there was an attempt to turn them back on.

If the switches were off, that could explain why the jet’s emergency-power generator—known as a ram air turbine, or RAT—appears to have activated in the moments before the aircraft plummeted into a nearby hostel for medical students. In all, 260 people died, including all but one of the people onboard the plane.

The Air Current, which is an industry publication that is widely respected, is the source for the new information. What isn't being said in the story (because it is conjecture) is that one of the pilots had to have switched off the two engines. That is why the Indian air investigation has been so close-mouthed. Everyone hopes that isn't the case, but it sure looks like it. The switches to shut off the engines require what I would describe as very deliberate and intentional actions. The fact that both engines failed in that phase of flight without a bird strike or fuel contamination (both ruled out), caused immediate suspicion that this is what happened.

Well, R89, care to comment now??

Let me be a doofus.

Could a pilot inadvertently press that switch to shut down an engine? Is it possible?

Or most certainly calculated?

R209, and this case, they would have to have made that mistake twice. So the obvious assumption is that this was a pilot suicide/mass murder. The investigators must be looking into the personal lives of the pilots.

Why. do it at take-off and not later in the flight when destruction would be assured?

R211 Less time for intervention? Do it mid flight and there would be time to wrestle and fix the situation - the plane doesn’t just fall to the ground when the engine goes out. It can glide for a bit. But this close to the ground, the reaction time would have been much less.

R212

Ah. Interesting. Thank you.

Pilot incompetence/distracted cockpit-seriously.

r208. Yes. Now that an official investigation has been conducted and preliminary results are out, it seems that it may have been pilot error.

I wasn't discounting it being pilot error, just annoyed by folks who jump in preemptively and make assumptions. Your initial theory was right, I was wrong.

Hope you can sleep better at nights knowing that you outwitted me. Also, I'm flattered that you took my original comment to heart and memorized the Reply #! Must be nice to have nothing else with which to fill your head.

The way that the shutoff/run is configured, there is no way to accidentally move the switch. You must pull the switch out and down or up. The way that the Indian investigative authorities started this investigation made most pilots worried that this might be the cause, but nobody ever says anything out loud because of the huge implications, until the final report comes out. What makes this unusual is that we are accustomed to initial NTSB reports from most accidents, which largely answer the question of what happened. India did not release any statement, electing to remain quiet for some time. But, there were hints. They came out a couple of weeks later and said no mechanical issues, bird strike or fuel contamination. There is no other reason than pilot error or sabotage.

One of the pilots asks the other why he shut off fuel and he denies it. If the pilot flying has a heads up display (HUD), then it is likely that he did not see any movement by the pilot monitoring, which means that the switch could have been moved and the pilot flying would have no idea. That poor son of a bitch would still be trying to fly the plane.

R216- Everyone at Reddit says the same thing- that this HAD to be deliberate.

But the switches were returned to RUN position 10 seconds later. So either the pilot who asked, "Why did you shut off the fuel?" took action to correct the problem, or the other pilot chickened out on his suicide/mass murder attempt but either way it was too late to recover altitude. There has to be more to their conversation than what is being shared.

Is everyone at Reddit an expert who's studied all the evidence, r217?

Not dismissing the idea that it was deliberate, it's just funny that you think Reddit is a credible source.

R219- what I meant to say was the people here seem to be more fair- like this could be some kind of pilot error-- Whereas everyone at Reddit is basically saying "Pilot sabotage".. It's just interesting to me. And I do not think that DL OR Reddit is a credible source, however the poster above DOES seem well versed on piloting(it may even be you?)- And it is clearly to early to jump to conclusions.

It's a tragedy. And utterly horrifying.

^^Sorry that was me R217

Captain Steve had by far the best analysis, including of potential pilot suicide. Make sure you watch the last part. Love the guy.

R222, I've been watching Captain Steve for awhile. He's always very interesting and honest about what he knows for certain, when he is speculating and when he just doesn't know.

I'm glad the posters gloating on another possible Boeing failure have been proven wrong. By any measure Boeing has been and incredible company, employing tens of thousands, producing tens of thousands of incredibly safe and efficient planes, and putting America in a aviation position that no one can or will ever come close to. Some of you loser really can't abide successful, productive people.

R222- Thank you. That was quite an impactful video.. It does not look great in terms of the outcome/cause of this..

What a shame.

The 787 is a very safe plane. This one was either crashed accidentally or intentionally due to actions of the pilots.

I am simultaneously horrified at the thought that this was a suicide/mass murder, and relieved this doesn’t represent a defect in the 787 design.

What a terrible tragedy. I do hope it was pilot error vs something deliberate.

Captain Steeeve has released a second video today and it seems pretty definite that the engines were deliberately cut off and then whichever one was flying flipped the switches back up again but it was too late. The final report will be released after a full investigation which will include the findings of a psychologist.

It must have been the co-pilot, probably wanting to get reincarnated instead of getting married.

Reincarnated as a cock roach.

If this was an intentional action, that has to make suicide/mass murder the #1 cause of aviation deaths in the last decade. The Germanwings flight killed 150, Malaysian 103 (which most experts think suicide was the cause, though we’ll probably never know for sure) killed 227, and now this with 260 dead. 634 victims and 3 mass murderers.

Boeing only managed to kill 338 with their Max debacle.

I'm not religious, but it seems like very bad karma to kill a plane full of people just because you hate your life.

Why is it that every time these suicide pilots always happen in a different country other that the US? It's happened more than 2 or 3 times in the last decade. It proves my point it's a lot more risky to fly outside the US because their pilots are not as well trained and screened out for mental issues as the U.S.

Also, most American pilots come from a military air force background with thousands of hours of training flying more powerful jets for combat. In many other countries, commercial airline pilots just have to go to flight school and log enough hours flying smaller aircraft.

Egypt Air

German Wings

Malaysian (must likely)

It’s cultural.

R232, these events are still extremely rare, they're just as dramatic as hell. Once you hear about them you never forget them.

R233, one of the notable things about those flights is how quickly things happened. The Egypt Air and Germanwings flights crashed early into their flights; the Malaysian Air flight seemed to drop radio contact and go off course as soon as it could. That’s consistent with what happened here (and what R212 said): a pilot who is going to do this knows they have to act quickly before anyone can interfere.

This seemed more and more likely the reason because the airline were loathe to even mention it.

R232 as you've probably never left the USA your risk is minimal.

The pilot who did it deliberately asked the other pilot why he cut fuel for the CVR.

That would just add to the cruelty.

R222's video is illuminating and clearly points to a deliberate act. Those TWO (as opposed to ONE) fuel control switches need to be moved with intent to be moved at all. And in take off, even if they're turned back on, there is simply not enough time to course correct.

Horrifying.

I don't think the same pilot who shut off the fuel switches is the same one who restored the switches back to the run position.

Captain Steve pointed out that the report released the other day included an Aviation Psychologist on the review board. I never knew there was such a thing. Obviously, they've already determined it was not mechanical failure or pilot error.

R243, do a search for "Aviation Psychologist" and you'll discover that it's an established role in the aviation industry, dating from the 1920s. Unless you believe they trained someone just to be on this review board. It's also not really about mental health but pilot behaviour in relation to human error. I suspect all aviation crash review boards include aviation psychologists.

R222 Oh, my God, can he just GET TO THE POINT?

"And I'll talk more about that in just a minute..."

Two minutes later.

"And I'll take more about that in just a minute..."

You have the attention span of a sparrow, R245.

Can someone create an AI summary of the video at R222? I’m too old to wait for the cum shot.

R246 I have no problem with thorough explanations. I have a big problem with people who just won't cut to the chase.

R222 God, he gives a 5-minute preamble to the topic of intentionality when he could have just said, "One conclusion we need to consider is that this was an intentional act."

It's sad, really, the complete lack of attention spans these days.

I suppose I should ave noticed something was wrong when, just before the crash, the pilot came on the PA system and shouted “TRANS WOMEN ARE NOT WOMEN!”

Not saying Captain Steve is among them, but “20 minutes” seems to be the goal of so many of these internet influencer blowhards and their “content”. Maybe they get more monetization at that point? As soon as I click on something and see 20 minutes I just move on. So fucking many “20 minute” videos these days.

Captain Steve may be very knowledgeable, but he definitely likes to hear the sound of his own voice. He could have told this whole story - details and facts included - in about half the time.

Nobody who posts on Datalounge is allowed to complain about people complaining about the length of videos.

Our entire reason for being here is to CUNT other posters in 10 words or less.

R247, one of the pilots did it.

THE END

The key point of the video is how the fuel switches work. You can see the basics explained in one of the photos in this article. It's impossible to imagine one, let alone both of them, being switched off accidentally.

Yup. It is a multi-step process to turn off or on to eliminate the possibility of a (fat) ass bump accidental shut off.

At least Captain Steve came out with it. PPRUNE was still futzing around it yesterday.

Once the non-suicidal pilot realized the fuel switches were off…he should have slammed on the brakes and aborted the takeoff roll. Attempting to lift off was guaranteed disaster.

R259? Wouldn't that have been way to late? How early did he realize what the other pilot had done?

R259, if I'm not mistaken, they were already airborne when he cutoff the fuel supplies. It was definitely done after V1. The suicidal pilot knew what he was doing.

PPrune is awful when it’s about suspected pilot suicide or mental health issues, R258. Talk about closing ranks. I was surprised that Captain Steve so forthcoming, but it does reflect his background in counseling.

I wonder if it was the younger, cute one who was the mass murderer.

Pretty sure it was the captain, the pilot monitoring, and he was the one who set a false lead by saying “did you switch off the fuel lines?”

The German Wings crash must have been torture for everyone on board....watching the pilot trying to get back into the cockpit, the descent and the Alps getting larger must have been hell.

R265- as bad as that was (Its a nightmare) I would choose instant obliteration at high speed like Germanwings over 10 seconds of fire that 150MPH likely offered-

I wouldn't rule out a problem with the plane. Air India isn't known for a spotless safety record.

[quote]Air India has faced additional scrutiny on other fronts after the crash.

[quote]The European Union Aviation Safety Agency said last week it plans to investigate its budget airline, Air India Express, after Reuters reported the carrier did not follow a directive to change engine parts of an Airbus A320 in a timely manner and falsified records to show compliance.

I just remembered something....it was definitely airborne when the fuel was cut off. The RAT was deployed immediately because of the lose of power. The RAT will not deploy if the wheels are on the ground. Captain Steve explained this.

At some point, the aviation authorities are going to have to deal with pilot mental health. The current system disincentivizes proactive measures to address pilot mental health.

Agreed. I don’t want neurodivergent or depressed pilots. Sorry .

That’s why I like pilots who are trained by the Navy/Air Force. They have been evaluated psychologically and are used to very high levels of stress. Ex military folks do commit suicide, possibly at a higher rate, but they would never drag civilians into it.

We need to stop referring to these incidents as “pilot suicides”.. These are not just suicides. These are mass murders by plane. Worse than most terror attacks. Perhaps, if we called it by his name, we would discourage suicidal pilots from carrying out such heinous acts.

Wow. He committed suicide.

[quote]Once the non-suicidal pilot realized the fuel switches were off…he should have slammed on the brakes and aborted the takeoff roll. Attempting to lift off was guaranteed disaster.

What are you talking about? As others have pointed out, OF COURSE the plane was already airborne when the fuel switches were turned off. What made you think otherwise?

Also, most American pilots used to come from a military air force background. FIFY

For those of you who worry about accepting pilots who have a depression history, do you feel better with a pilot who never admits having been depressed, but who drinks heavily every night before flying the next day? Because if you don't deal with stress and anxiety in a highly stressful and anxiety-provoking profession, you end up with drunks and addicts flying your planes. I cannot count the number of pilots I know who drink to handle stress because they can't go to a therapist. If you admit to going to a therapist, your medical cert can be yanked and you are forced into an expensive and logically stupid process.

Commercial pilots have to take a breathalyzer test before they fly, R276. And, no, a clinically depressed plot should not fly. There are many other ways to lead a productive life and earn your living when you suffer from depression.

The dog looked at me with unusual disdain when I scooped her poop this morning.

✈️ 💥 🪦

Maybe it was depression?

Strange way to kill yourself. Like walking into a packed Walmart with a bomb strapped to you. But when Captain Steve was talking about counseling in the cockpit, I thought it was supposed to be sterile cockpit procedure and no casual conversation. Is that only during takeoff and landing?

R280- Agreed- and to murder all of these passengers (minus one-by a sheer miracle)

Like I said above I would have rather crashed into a mountain at 350 MPH for a quick and painless death.

I unfortunately saw pictures of some bodies from this crash and most were intact but burned beyond recognition.

This plane was going to slow to assure instant death (although most likely died quickly)

Just fucked up.

Grateful. Without Air India DL wouldn’t have this marvelous thread. You give me so much.

and Air Disaster wouldn’t have that final crash for this season’s finale…

Beloved family members are flying this week so I’m hoping the Essex airport crash completes this year’s crash quota?

[quote]as you've probably never left the USA your risk is minimal.

You would be wrong about that. Not a world traveler but I have been to about 6 different countries outside the US. Laws are different, standards are different, culture is different. Sorry you cant face that fact. Its no different than say building construction in Mexico city where earthquakes devastate the city because regulations are not enforced or inspectors are bought off. Too much sand in the concrete saves money but not structurally sound. Hence even a moderate 6.0 can collapse a building.

R277 no commercial pilots do NOT take a breathalyzer before flying. Some will get randomed, but most will not. You missed my point. A very stressful job leads to depression if a pilot can't handle it. They can handle it a few different ways: in a healthy fashion with diet, exercise and meditation; like most do by drinking or using pills they don't report; or by lying about going to therapy to cope with the depression constant stress puts on them, along with disruption of sleep cycles. Everyone deals with depression, in some form, at some point. If a pilot for an air carrier reports depression or taking a medication (even acceptable) or going to a therapist, it's almost an automatic medical cert denial. That pilot goes off the line. Most pilots have some form of insurance to cover them if their medical gets yanked, but the return process for mental health is so long, expensive, Kafkaesque and antiquated that most people just surrender. It's hard to explain to anyone who isn't a pilot, but losing your privilege to fly is devastating. It's often not just a profession, but a passion, even a religion of sorts.

All of that having been said, the piloting community has been talking about mental health for a long time and the FAA has been trying to adapt to the changing times, new medications and new therapies for handling stress for pilots. Almost all of the recent air disasters with passengers have been caused by the intentional actions of the pilots. Something is going badly wrong and most pilots feel that the current processes incentivize lying and covering up mental health issues that could be addressed. Nobody wants to fly with someone who could kill them. As you can imagine, they are highly motivated to see that shit stop.

[quote] and putting America in a aviation position that no one can or will ever come close to.

Lolz

I think the trope of US pilots being former military aviators is passé. That was true in the 50s and 60s obviously but today? I also wonder about the effect of airline deregulation (in the late 60s?) which made flying much cheaper which led to an increase in the number of flights and then an increase in upstart airlines vs the legacy carriers which presumably treated their pilots better.

[quote]putting America in a aviation position that no one can or will ever come close to.

R223, it's a bit odd for someone who's never heard of Airbus to pontificate about Boeing's position vis a vis its competitors.

You are right , R277 pilots are not routinely monitored with a breathalyzer in the US. The are Air India pilots were. And I was not speaking of the depression that we are all suffering in life due to losses, disappointments, etc. I was speaking of severe clinical depression like Lubitz had. He should’ve been banned from flying by his doctor.

There is a big difference between a suicidal depressed person and a murderous depressed person

It was hard for us to tell the difference, r291.

R291 Nicht wirklich.

R290 agreed. If someone has clinical depression, they should be grounded. Amen.

There’d be no one left to fly Air DL.

R294 do you know how many people in the world suffer from depression? The airline industry would grind to a halt

Captain Steve made the point that those pilots who've come through the military, typical for almost all American commercial pilots (and probably European and Israeli), have been filtered so that only the mentally strongest make it to a commercial cockpit. Also, they have learned how to manage stress and stressful situations, which a commercial pilot's life definitely is. It is, of course, not 100%, but the entire process definitely ups the percentage.

I believe Captain Steve is a mental health counselor, besides being a pilot. He is going to have a podcast soon with someone who is an expert in the field.

[quote]There is a big difference between a suicidal depressed person and a murderous depressed person

They’re both suicidal as they’re also killing themselves.

Another Muslim.

R299 is a MAGAt.

You are wrong R299 it’s a Sikh/Hindu name.

About 10 years ago, I went out to dinner with some friends, 3 of his invites were older on the way to retirement pilots. They drank like fish, no exaggeration. They were talking about how the newer planes suck etc. When I told one of them I actually have a fear of flying their answer was " Don't worry, we've never left one up there yet".

Cute, I am sure not the first time they used that joke, but now I really have a phobia after watching how fast they sucked that alcohol down. They even talked about how they race each other to get to a city before the bars close.

Do Sikhs/Hindus believe in reincarnation?

Odd that aircraft manufacturers and airlines will put an airplane into the sky with questionable flaws, apparently willing to take a chance with other people’s lives , but will ground a pilot, maybe forever, if he admits to having some mood-related mental health issues which can 90% of the time be addressed successfully with safe medication and counseling.

Maybe it was ⬇️⬇️⬇️

I decide it was pilot error/incompetence and distracted cockpit as soon as it crashed.

^^^Thanks for telling us you were wrong.

I don’t get it. I can see that one wants to commit suicide and even drag a few people along that one hates. But I don’t get the pilot murder-suicides. Why kill 200+ people you have absolutely no relationship to? Is there research on this?

There’s one case I read about where a big commercial plane crash was traced to suicide. I think it happened at sea.

R309, I think that was Egypt air from JFK. I'm not sure when it was.

“Why kill …. people you have absolutely no relationship to?”

Have you no heart? It would be intolerable to hear the sound of mom and dad screaming as they race towards certain fiery death!

Correct R310, and in that incident the pilot sent the plane into a dive. When the copilot tried to stop him he switched off the engines, all but ensuring the aircraft couldn't recover to level flight.

I said it before and I will say it again because I know several people who did this. Suicide is selfish. Their pain or depression does not end, they just transfer it to other people in their life like a ripple in a pond. Of course not all suicides are like that, but lets be honest, many of them are. So taking down a plane with others is totally on par with that. They want the drama with their death. That's why a lot of them pick highly visible places to do it.

You want a small example, 2 years ago I was in NYC and went to see the Vessel an art sculptor in Hudson yards. Guess why it was closed to the public. At least 4 people on different occasions climbed up to the top to jump to their death. There are probably a million ways to kill yourself in NYC and yet they wanted the most dramatic specticle they could find. Apparently sleeping pills and razor blades are too mundane now.

[quote]R308 I don’t get the pilot murder-suicides. Why kill 200+ people you have absolutely no relationship to?

Here’s a pilot you’ll like!

[italic] 2012: A suspended SkyWest Airlines pilot, under investigation for the stabbing death of a woman in his home, stole a Canadair CRJ200ER regional jet at St. George Regional Airport in Utah. The aircraft struck the terminal building while leaving the gate and the pilot taxied into a parking lot at high speed. He then fatally shot himself inside the aircraft.

[quote]R313 I said it before and I will say it again because I know several people who did this. Suicide is selfish. Their pain or depression does not end, they just transfer it to other people in their life like a ripple in a pond.

And it’s not selfish to expect deeply depressed people to live long lives of pain just so YOU won’t feel bad?

That’s the HEIGHT of selfishness.

Yes there is a case for suicide as the ultimate self centered, me me me, narcissistic thing you can do. That’s kind of true of depressed people. They can’t care about much else at that point. And they are exhausting.

Psycho-vamps. They just suck all the life out of everyone around them for their own.

[quote]And it’s not selfish to expect deeply depressed people to live long lives of pain just so YOU won’t feel bad?

[quote]That’s the HEIGHT of selfishness.

No, we're not expecting them to "live long lives of pain", just to not drag the rest of us down into the self-hating abyss with them.

Kill yourself if you want, just leave me out if it.

R316 and 318 is correct. There is A LOT of narcissism and selfishness with many who commit suicide. You want to take yourself out, fine, leave a note, go off to the woods and do it. But you have no right to make the rest of us pay for it. You think it's no big deal to discover a dead body where someone blew their brains out in their apartment? Or to see them splattered all over the pavement in front of a tall building? Or risk their lives retrieving the body because they jumped off a ledge in a national park?

That's the actions of someone who wants other people to suffer because of their own problems. Or they are SO NARCISSISTIC that it never even occurs to them that other people have to clean up the mess. Your maid didn't sign up for that job people.

Whoopsie!

[quote]And it’s not selfish to expect deeply depressed people to live long lives of pain just so YOU won’t feel bad? That’s the HEIGHT of selfishness.

Nobody wrote that, you idiot. The point is that there are a great many ways to kill yourself without killing or endangering the lives of others. Are you really so stupid, and is your reading comprehension so incredibly low, that you somehow did not get this?

Wish I could say I believe any government agency anymore, but FWIW.