Why isn’t gender dysphoria treated psychologically?

I have always wondered about this, too.

Of course, the counterargument will be that "not that long ago, and still practiced in some countries, homosexuality was considered a mental illness".

But yes, I also think that gender dysphoria, much like body dysmorphia, is something that needs to get treated "between the ears", so to speak, and not by (irreversibly) altering one's body. Why? Because changing genders is simply impossible, so the entire thing seems futile, anyway.

R1 That always seems to be the argument, trying to compare transgenderism to homosexuality. I always counter that argument by saying “I don’t need hormones and surgery to be myself, I was born this way.” It’s extremely difficult for a transgender person to claim that they were born that way when they literally need hormones and surgery to become trans. In any case, this is not intended to be a trans bashing thread. I’m genuinely curious why the condition is not treated in a more practical way.

Yeah but people with schizophrenia are also put on medication for the rest of their life too. Gender dysphoria is an external / sight issue also. It’s not voices in your head, it’s your genitalia or beard or breasts. It’s much easier to fix the outside than the inside.

The issue that I have today is that it used to be a much more in depth process medically.

Today you can just go to your doctor and say you’re trans and they’ll put you on hormone treatment.

Lobbying, bullying and greed.

OP, do you mean pharmacologically? Of course gender dysphoria is a topic of psychotherapy -- that's a prerequisite for gender reassignment surgery. Maybe the question is why psychotherapy doesn't seem to be reliably EFFECTIVE in reversing gender dysphoria?

I think extensive counseling is routine now, especially before surgical alterations. I think it's somewhat comical that people think that talking with a shrink for an hour a week is going to "cure" people of gender dysphoria. There are HUGE negative societal ramifications for someone going through a transition. Why would anyone presume that people undertake that step lightly, like changing clothes? I don't understand why people feel this way about their bodies and their inner psyches, but that doesn't mean that I think their feelings cannot possibly be valid (for them). There was a time, from about 2010- 2018 when some people pushed the notion that effeminacy in boys and butchness in girls might be an indication of gender dysphoria and transing became a bit of a fad. But given the extreme pushback that society has given to that notion, I don't think young people "on the fence" are going to opt for it. However, since hormones and surgery have been available, which is now 80 YEARS, there has been a small but consistent group of people wanting to change their outward appearance to match what their inner psyches told them they ought to be.

That's a thoughtful answer but I don't think OP was asking in good faith, r6. He'll be back in 8 hours with another "why are the trans so crazy" post.

OP's intents don't matter, R7 - it's refreshing to see a sane debate taking place.

Repeating anti-trans talking points under the guise of "just asking questions" is not something in short supply, r8. Have you read the New York Times or The Atlantic in the last five years? There are plenty of people who are pretending that there are no safeguards or hoops to jump through on the way to being trans. To hear people like OP tell it, you'd think anyone can make an appointment with their GP and get a pussy installed.

You can't get access to any trans-related healthcare without a psychological evaluation to make sure you are trans. It's a very long process. You'd know that if you weren't carefully protecting your opinion from any facts that might force you to rethink it.

I've been seeing you on here for a while and I'm genuinely disappointed to learn that you're intellectually lazy.

Has anyone ever heard of a trans person deciding they're not trans after talking therapy, or by taking tablets? I never have.

I know some dislike comparisons to homosexuality, but there are similarities in the reaction against the two - eg "it's not natural", or "there's much higher incidence of depression and anxiety in gay/trans people, so the issue must be with them, not how society treats them", etc.

I think we could do with maybe a little bit more understanding, because the question rarely seems in good faith.

The longer Trump Vance etc etc etc are in power the less over time you will see of this gender dysphoria.

You will also see over time fewer parents thinking their kid or kids are trans and will accept that instead of having a truly unique special child they have a regular boring kind of regular gay kid. Some parents may be upset but in time they will adjust.

If Harris Walz had won we would see more not less of this gender dysphoria in the future.

I still think it's silly how so many think homophobic parents would be happier with a trans kid than a gay kid.

With a gay kid they can reject them and never mention it to their friends, but it's much harder to hide a trans kid.

[quote]I think it's somewhat comical that people think that talking with a shrink for an hour a week is going to "cure" people of gender dysphoria. There are HUGE negative societal ramifications for someone going through a transition. Why would anyone presume that people undertake that step lightly, like changing clothes?

Gentle explorative therapy prior to transition (before it was branded "conversion therapy") is not intended to 'cure' gender dysphoria. In some cases, however, the young person seeking gender affirmation might discover, under the safe guidance of a mental health professional, that there are other factors underlying their discomfort with their body (for example, being bullied, a disgust of femininity/masculinity, confusion around sexual orientation, or a problematic relationship with one or both parents). Also, some young people might have unrealistic expectations of the person they will be post-transition: a shy, introverted, mousy girl might believe she will become the popular, idealized "boi" she has been fantasizing about. In certain (rare) cases, dysphoria is exacerbated by transition because the trans person is not satisfied with the results. Self-acceptance can be a powerful message, and the fact that detransitioners/desisters exist, even in small numbers, is justification for such therapy, at least for children/adolescents and young adults. Then, if the person is truly dysphoric and is certain they want to go ahead with hormones and surgery, they should of course have the freedom to do so.

R12 you are suggesting that it’s maga parents more often sending their child to gender change doctors not progressive parents?

I’d be shocked if that were correct. Stunned. No , I think this , my child is not a fag he is a girl in transition , is much more a liberal thing.

Some left-wing, anticapitalist activists view "transgenderism" (to use the right wing's term) as just another one of the excesses of a hypercapitalist society, in which *everything* can be commercialized and commodified, even the human body. If only you pay enough money, you can re-shape your own body and reinvent yourself as a new person.

Never heard that one before, Bunky.

Have fun playing with your toys

OP is a total troll. He puts out preposterous statements. Masked by "I'm genuinely curious" and "just asking questions", classic troll technique. No matter what side or middle you stand on trans, trolls are not helpful.

Gender dysphoria is considered a mental health *condition* but not a mental health *disorder*. This way, it is medicalized without being pathologized, and those undergoing treatment and the various procedures required are eligible for insurance coverage.

R17 so why are you on this thread bumping it up for all to see? That sort of thing always confuses me. And is a trans troll someone who is overly pro or those that are overly anti? And should we ignore all of them?

And an unrelated question, why are these trans threads so very popular on the DL?

I want to thank you as I am sure others do for your kind and important warning

Anyone asking this question knows nothing. To even be eligible for surgical interventions you must have been diagnosed. To be diagnosed, you must undergo psychological treatment and assessment, and it is not a short or easy process.

The idea that you can just walk in off the street and demand surgery is ridiculous. Stop smoking GOP propaganda.

What about drugs R20. Could any doctor decide on their own to begin medical intervention..

R21 what drugs do you think treat gender dysphoria?

And no, in fact, to even be considered for surgery you need to have been seen and approved by a team of doctors including a surgeon, endocrinologist and psychiatrist.

One of my issues with the concept of "trans" is that, in my experience, only a small percentage of trans people convincingly look and sound like the gender to which they transition, whereas if you see photos or video of them before they transition, they almost always look like normal men or women with no gender disparity issues.

So my question is, how does it make these people feel more comfortable -- rather than less -- to make themselves look like very unconvincing men or women, rather than staying with their original bodies? How can a man who transitions feel comfortable as a "woman" when it's very obvious that they're not a natural woman? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of the surgery, hormone treatments, etc.?

I would love to hear people's honest thoughts on this subject.

This is not a good faith argument. If you want to read trans people’s narratives of how transition improved their lives and mental health there are tons of them out there. “Looking like a natural man/woman” — in your opinion — is not a trans person’s goal, it is living their truth. These are not “concepts”, these are real people. If you can’t understand any of this, try minding your business and thinking about something else, since what trans people do does not actually affect you.

Yet another ignorant "trans" thread. Gender dysphoria isn't a disease. There are "third genders" in countries all over the world. There are people who are demonstrably intersex. Binary sex isn't the only way in which people are wired. The "disorder" is imposing pseudoscience on the breadth of human biology and experience.

R22 my bad drugs was a sloppy word to use. I am asking about gender treatment that is not of a surgical nature. Non surgical medial treatment to help with a transition. Who needs to approve the start of that?

It’s a serious not a snarky question,

[quote]I think extensive counseling is routine now, especially before surgical alterations.

Incorrect. Anyone following "gender care" in the UK knows that medical treatment can be given after 1 session. Read up on Michael Webberly, who is now struck off as a doctor who ran Gender GP with his wife Helen Webberly. And that's the heavily regulated UK. The profit driven commercialised healthcare system in the US sees gender healthcare as a huge cash cow - patients are going to be on treatment for the rest of their lives. Ding ding ding jackpot.

[quote]I think it's somewhat comical that people think that talking with a shrink for an hour a week is going to "cure" people of gender dysphoria. There are HUGE negative societal ramifications for someone going through a transition.

The political arguments to "ban conversion therapy" would mean making it illegal to counsel a patient with anything other than fully affirmative care. See the link below where a trans patient set up a meeting with a doctor and then reported him to the General Medical Council.

[quote] Why would anyone presume that people undertake that step lightly, like changing clothes? I don't understand why people feel this way about their bodies and their inner psyches, but that doesn't mean that I think their feelings cannot possibly be valid (for them).

Have you ever heard of goths? Why would people take the step lightly to dress all in black, dye their hair black and get piercings? To fit in, to feel part of a movement, to make people look at them.

[quote]There was a time, from about 2010- 2018 when some people pushed the notion that effeminacy in boys and butchness in girls might be an indication of gender dysphoria and transing became a bit of a fad. But given the extreme pushback that society has given to that notion, I don't think young people "on the fence" are going to opt for it.

Look at the way someone like Hunter Shafer is treated because his fake tits and drag make up allows him to pass a stereotypical woman, whereas the old style butch dykes like the weird kid from The Last Of Us pretends she isn't a woman. When that version of femaleness (see also Dylan Mulvaney) is being pushed online, is it surprising so many girls are opting out of being female? And the number of straight men who want to be lesbians is pure AGP.

[quote]However, since hormones and surgery have been available, which is now 80 YEARS, there has been a small but consistent group of people wanting to change their outward appearance to match what their inner psyches told them they ought to be.

I have a huge amount of sympathy for the old school transsexual who just wanted to get on in life unnoticed and unchallenged, but now there's a huge number of angry men demanding women treat them as women who enjoy making women feel uncomfortable. They do not have gender dysphoria, they have a kink.

R3, it is your physical brain & central nervous system that allows you, or all humans, to be able to engage sight, or to see, as you explained. Your brain also perceives your physical reality or external reality. This is why persons afflicted with body dysmorphia look in the mirror & perceive an obese person who needs to lose more weight, when the facts bear that said person is 5’6, & weigh 115 lbs, hence an eating disorder develops in the form of anorexia or bulimia.

I’ve befriended a good number of trans MtF through out my life, & have personally gone through the transition journey with one woman in particular, & here’s what I’ve learned according to how it has been explained to me:

A person afflicted with gender dysphoria DOES see their actual biological sex when they look in the mirror, and to them? It registers as an internal feeling of absolute agony & despair. It’s been described to me as an internal and external feeling experienced in their total physical/physiological/psychological/mental being, and it feels like drowning, while attempting to gasp for air. They want it ALL gone. The penis, the facial hair, the Adam’s apple, the broad shoulders, basically anything that doesn’t match up to how they want to FEEL, rather than just seeing.

As soon as the hormone therapy begins, it’s a HUGE sense of relief, & one particular woman (now completely MtF), described it as if they are having a full body orgasm. The hormones make them FEEL euphoric, while also finally feeling at peace, once they complete the full, surgical transition.

It’s REALLY important to understand that persons who experience this, cannot help it. It’s not some sort of trend for them, or something that just came over them. They feel this way their entire lives, until the hormone therapy begins as the first step.

Is it all in their head? Partially, yes. But it’s an aching and extreme discomfort in their physical bodies, as well, which suggests that it’s also a complete central nervous system engagement.

I do not believe or classify gender dysphoria as mental illness. I’ve met trans women who hold high paying jobs, who are highly intelligent, and self composed, who exhibit no erratic behaviors.

I wish we, as a society, had the ability to engage trans persons in the goal of understanding their need to transition, while also developing compassion towards them in the sense that those of us who are not trans, truly cannot completely comprehend what it’s like to live in our own skin, while experiencing gender dysphoria.

Personally? I exhibited highly bigoted tendencies when I was first confronted with this exact proposition many years ago. Hence, I studied, became informed, listened to their experiences, feelings, & thoughts, & eventually came to the conclusion that I WAS THE ASSHOLE, for assuming that a particular woman I met, was attempting to redefine what it means to be a biological woman.

Trans women KNOW they are NOT women. They just want to feel at peace & happy. Whether transitioning achieves this is certainly questionable, however, isn’t this what we all want for ourselves? Do we ever achieve that? Some days absolutely yes, & sometimes- fuck no!

Trans are NOT our enemy.

Another transphobic thread on DL, another day. Do you all have anything better to do? Is this just chatbots repeating the same tired hate over and over?

[quote] but now there's a huge number of angry men demanding women treat them as women who enjoy making women feel uncomfortable

How many is this huge number?

R28 you are saying as far as sports , the trans know they are not women , but they want to compete against and beat women anyway. This is exactly how almost every American sees it. Men wanting to beat up on women.

And you made the point well—- they are not women .

this issue bit Harris Walz in the ass last November.

[quote]“Looking like a natural man/woman” — in your opinion — is not a trans person’s goal, it is living their truth.

But how can a man becoming someone who very obviously transitioned from man to woman, rather than looking like a natural woman, make them feel like they're living their truth? If I ever "transitioned" from man to woman but was perceptive enough to realize that everyone I encountered could immediately tell I'm trans because I don't really look like a natural woman, I'm pretty positive that would make me feel at least as uncomfortable in my skin, if not more so, than I felt in the body of a male.

[quote]If you can’t understand any of this, try minding your business and thinking about something else, since what trans people do does not actually affect you.

You're right that it doesn't affect me personally, but I am selfless enough to be concerned about very young people who become convinced that they're living in the body of the wrong sex, and begin taking puberty blockers, etc. either of their own volition or at their parents' urging or insistence. As for older people -- past puberty -- who decide they are trans, yes, I agree that's their business rather than mine, whether or not I understand or agree with the concept of trans.

I guess they discovered telling people it’s all in their head didn’t work. In the same way that telling gays they have genitalia that are only meant to touch the opposite sex’s genitalia doesn’t work.

R32 rewrite your post but substitute sane sex attraction and gay for your trans references. Read that and see how it affects you and decide how the reasoning you’re using is ok in one situation but maybe not the other

The old way of doing it, like Buck Angel did it was to have extensive therapy, then live as a man/woman with no medical intervention. The medical/surgical intervention was the last step and it was spread out.

What TRA’s all calling “conversion therapy” now is therapists talking to dysphoric kids about why they think they are a different gender and getting them comfortable in their own body as at least 80-90% of gender dysphoric kids desist the issue.

Who told you they don’t want to pass? In FTM is ALL about trying to pass and there’s more than a few MTF that think the same way. Euphoria? Are you talking about the “euphoria boners” they get from taking hormones and wearing women’s clothes? Those are autogynophiles.

[quote]Rewrite your post but substitute sane sex attraction and gay for your trans references. Read that and see how it affects you and decide how the reasoning you’re using is ok in one situation but maybe not the other

The tremendous, overwhelming difference is that gay men and women do not feel they have to mutilate their bodies to conform to society's constructs of what constitutes a man or a woman. I simply can't understand what, for example, a man means when he says he's really a woman. If he feels that way because he's sexually attracted to other men, he might just be gay. If he feels that way because he likes to wear women's clothing, he might just be man who likes to wear women's clothing, and should not feel it necessary to mutilate his body in order to wear women's clothing. If he feels that way because he has personality characteristics that are more stereotypical of women than men, then I would say undergoing surgery, hormone therapy, etc. simply to reinforce stereotypes like that is hugely regressive and damaging to these people and to society at large.

Understand?

Irrelevant to the question/suggestion r36.

[quote]but now there's a huge number of angry men demanding women treat them as women who enjoy making women feel uncomfortable

[quote]How many is this huge number?

The "trans women" who turn up outside women's conferences to scream abuse at women are plenty - see also the number of trans activists who are married to women who insist the term "biological male" is hate speech.

The coverage of "trans issues" in the UK over the last few weeks has predominantly centred on "trans women" who are effectively heterosexual men, not feminine gay boys who think they're trapped in the wrong body.

How many?

[quote]Trans women KNOW they are NOT women. They just want to feel at peace & happy.

Tell that to the likes of Erin Reed, Zooey Zephyr, India "I am a biological woman" Willoughby, Katy Montgomerie, Alejandra Caraballo, Arden Hart, Janet Mock, Roxanne Tickle, Mia Mulder, Jessie Earl, Natalie Wynn, the ACLU's Gillian Branstetter, Abigail "Philosophy Tube" Thorn, Lily Alexandre, Sarah Jane Baker, Jessica Yaniv, Veronica Ivy, Keffals (Clara Sorrenti), Sophie Labelle, Emily Bridges, Lia Thomas, and so on. They all insist that they are literally women.

[quote]Irrelevant to the question/suggestion [R36].

Not at all irrelevant, R37. And if you can't explain why you think it's irrelevant, of course I'm going to reject that opinion.

I don't remember ever hearing people hotly debating the trans issue until people started transitioning their kids. I think most people didn't care. I understand that there are people who are more comfortable living/presenting as the opposite sex and those people have my sympathies. I naturally am protective of anyone on the fringes of society who aren't harming anyone—it's just built into my personality. I do question transitioning children, however, and think it's a bad idea. A lot of the "trans" kids end up being homosexuals after they've fully gone through puberty and processed their sexual feelings and identities.

I think people who still have persistent feelings of gender dysphoria into adulthood should do what they feel is right for themselves, whether it be surgical intervention or simply HRT and presenting as/assuming the opposite sex. So much of the discourse around this is purely semantic, with token phrases like "trans women ARE women"—it's just stupid. The fact is they are not women—they're TRANS women. It's a different category. I don't know why so many people are insistent on such a statement being regarded as fact when it's simply not. People are so hung up on this and cannot seem to move past it.

[quote]Tell that to the likes of Erin Reed, Zooey Zephyr, India "I am a biological woman" Willoughby, Katy Montgomerie, Alejandra Caraballo, Arden Hart, Janet Mock, Roxanne Tickle, Mia Mulder, Jessie Earl, Natalie Wynn, the ACLU's Gillian Branstetter, Abigail "Philosophy Tube" Thorn, Lily Alexandre, Sarah Jane Baker, Jessica Yaniv, Veronica Ivy, Keffals (Clara Sorrenti), Sophie Labelle, Emily Bridges, Lia Thomas, and so on. They all insist that they are literally women.

Don't forget Dr Beth (Theodore) Upton who demanded to use the female changing rooms in the hospital he worked in and complained when nurse Sandie Peggie confronted him when he walked in on her getting undressed. This complaint resulted in Peggie being suspended from work after a 30 year career of nursing. Dr Upton also fabricated an incident where Peggie left a patient unattended because she refused to work with Upton.

And then there's Mridul Wadhwa, the male head of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre who told abused women who didn't want to be around men to "reframe their trauma" and bullied rape counsellor Roz Adams out of her job because Adams stuck up for rape victims who wanted to know if their non binary rape counsellor was female.

And then there's the fragrant Helen Belcher OBE, a Liberal Democrat parliamentary candidate who thinks that using the word male to describe trans women is hate speech.

And what of the lovely Robin Moira White, the very posh barrister who insists that he is "somatically female", and says he didn't want to have voice therapy to sound more female as he is a lawyer and wouldn't be able to do his job with a "mini mouse voice".

All of these male people insist that they are female women, no less female than the mothers who gave birth to them.

Unfortunately there's such an umbrella with trans that it cheapens the true issue.

In my mind, there are a few categories that fall under trans.

1) Those who genuinely have a dysphoria and who really want/need to be the other gender. We've all seen some of these in our lives - guys who are much more feminine than women, women who make a trucker look like a pageant queen. For me, this is the group I associated with trans 20-30+ years ago with the T was added with LGBT.

2) Young people finding their way and their identity and think they're not doing their gender well or don't know how to go about it and think they may be the other gender. This is the 'try a new identity' types. Also under this for me, are those who just genuinely hate themselves and want to erase their former self and be someone completely new. This is the 'trans is the new tattoo' types.

3) Men with a kink for feminine clothes and makeup - I can't think of the word, but you all know what it is. Andro...something or another.

4) Creepy men who want to throw on a wig and put on some lipstick to gain access to women's spaces - whether it's prisons, changing rooms, bathrooms, etc.

Groups 2, 3, and 4 make it really hard for group 1, who are the true trans in my view. They make policy and public opinion so difficult because there is inherent harm in groups 2, 3 and 4 for biological women and also for themselves.

I don't think it's ever going to get solved unless there are more clear distinctions and definitions around this. You may not agree with my categories above, but I think we can all agree that there is such a wide range and some of the problem/issues we're seeing are valid issues with groups 2, 3 and 4 - that do not apply to group 1.

The 'true' trans are maligned and get dragged into the negative stories about teens, fetish men, and criminals which harms the movement.

Gays had the NAMBLA to deal with - we finally got rid of that shit (way too late, if you ask me) in the 90s. That group was child pedophilia - had nothing to do with gay rights at all. And we all knew it but we didn't do anything about it for a LONG time for fear of alienating or not being inclusive.

My point is - you have to draw a line somewhere. Particularly when it comes to people 'feeling' like X. You have to protect your movement from harmful groups that drag it down and create negative public perceptions (rightfully so).

I'll probably get voted down to oblivion and given a time out. So be it.

[quote]Those who genuinely have a dysphoria and who really want/need to be the other gender. We've all seen some of these in our lives - guys who are much more feminine than women, women who make a trucker look like a pageant queen.

But why do some of the people you describe happily live their lives as effeminate men (usually gay) and butch women (usually lesbian), while others feel they need to transition? What exactly is the difference? And again, many of us would say that those who feel they need to transition for this reason are just reinforcing gender stereotypes.

It does seem to me that a major sticking point is the position by quite a few trans activists (pointed out above) that there is no difference between a trans man or woman and a biological man or woman -- hence the controversy over JK Rowling and the recent UK Supreme Court ruling or the (largely invented) issue of trans athletes. It's definitely worth taking a dispassionate look at when biological gender is or isn't a relevant issue. For example, in bathrooms/changing rooms, a person's genitalia are logically to the relevant marker. In sports (specially women's sports) biological gender is obviously relevant. Ditto official identification documents (passports, licenses) because the point is to be able to make sure you are you if it really comes to that.

Might it be useful to create a broader range official categories that offer a degree of accommodation to trans individuals while not requiring us to deny facts when they matter? That wouldn't satisfy the hardcore activists, but it would go a long way toward addressing trans denial and allow more nuance in regulation and jurisprudence. It would also help to normalize/destigmatize trans identities (over time).

I've been thinking it might be practical to create a more flexible "official" gender system along the lines of:

M F I (intersex with indeterminate genitalia) IM (intersex with male genitalia) IF (intersex with female genitalia) TM (female genitalia presenting male) TF (male genitalia presenting female) TSM (surgically created male) TSF (surgically created female)

I have to wonder if it's at least partially due to the medical community not wanting to deal with the huge push back they'd get from the trans community who seem to be hell bent on never accepting any sort of psychological cause. Plus the surgeons would lose out on all that money they make from doing genital transitions.

Who is claiming that psychological assessment is necessary to access cross sex hormones? That’s just not true. People are accessing hormone therapy easily and without assessment. A FTM friend not only got a prescription for T but a letter from a psychologist for top surgery while she was still in treatment for psychotic depression. He’s doing great now, taking steroids and was camped outside his ex’s house last night coming down from party drugs and non-stop ringing her doorbell.

OP, what is the precise treatment you propose to resolve the issue?

In the past, many people sought therapeutic solutions to schizophrenia for example. What gives you the confidence that a therapeutic solution to this issue is not similarly stupid, particularly if you have no idea how the therapy would work?

I still believe it is a pathological fixation, and nothing hormone or gene related.

Thank you for your belief.

In time figuring out why this happens and being able to treat the mother in utero to avoid this sort of thing. Not designer babies as such but babies without certain “defects” that the parents do not want to deal with.

In time maybe not in my time.

[quote]For example, in bathrooms/changing rooms, a person's genitalia are logically to the relevant marker.

I have never understood the brouhaha over unisex bathrooms, or over trans people using the bathroom of the gender with which they identify, for the simple reason that using bathrooms for sexual thrills is wrong even under the old system, and is of course illegal, no matter how much it used to happen and still happens in male-only bathrooms.

But also....many unisex bathrooms have no urinals and consist of only stalls, which obviously allow for privacy. And even in bathrooms that have both stalls AND urinals, of course women are going to use the stalls. So if anything, it seems to me that the only people who should have any concern over peeping toms or whatever in bathrooms should be those who have penises and use urinals -- i.e., cis males -- and in that regard, they should be no more or less concerned than in the past.

Can anyone tell me if they think there's anything flawed in my argument? Because it makes perfect sense to me.

Bring back sissies and tomboys.

Why don't gays just do conversion therapy?

[quote] 1) Those who genuinely have a dysphoria and who really want/need to be the other gender. We've all seen some of these in our lives - guys who are much more feminine than women, women who make a trucker look like a pageant queen. For me, this is the group I associated with trans 20-30+ years ago with the T was added with LGBT.

R44 has put into words what I have always thought - these are the genuine trans people (the group 1 above), and I have met a number like this, they are almost always really nice people too. They are the ones I would actively like to have fuller protection and rights, and I think they are also the quiet majority of trans people, just trying to live their lives as people of the opposite gender

[quote] 2) Young people finding their way and their identity and think they're not doing their gender well or don't know how to go about it and think they may be the other gender. This is the 'try a new identity' types. Also under this for me, are those who just genuinely hate themselves and want to erase their former self and be someone completely new. This is the 'trans is the new tattoo' types.

I really dont have an issue with those in this group either, although I think a greater amount of therapy and other help should be made available to them before they jump straight into hormones and surgery etc - I suspect this is what OP is talking about.

[quote] 3) Men with a kink for feminine clothes and makeup - I can't think of the word, but you all know what it is. Andro...something or another.

R44 you're thinking of autogynephiles. I'm fine with them indulging their kink in private or with other consenting adults, but draw the line at doing it in public and involving those who want no part of it

[quote] 4) Creepy men who want to throw on a wig and put on some lipstick to gain access to women's spaces - whether it's prisons, changing rooms, bathrooms, etc.

These are the ones that cause just about all the problems for the trans movement, and especially for those in group one above. All the individuals that R43 has listed come into this category by the look of it

[quote] Groups 2, 3, and 4 make it really hard for group 1, who are the true trans in my view. They make policy and public opinion so difficult because there is inherent harm in groups 2, 3 and 4 for biological women and also for themselves.

Quite so, although I think its groups 3 and more particularly 4 that do the most harm both to biological women and to the trans movement itself

I like R46's proposal, a nuanced attempt like this to find a middle ground and addresses the needs of group 1 and also 2 above while also addressing the issues groups 3 and 4 cause, it recognises how complex this issue actually is and that there is not and never will be a one size fits all answer

R56 is the nuanced attempt to find a middle ground that includes these four different groups going to include and be explained to American voters during an election or this just something within the DL trans world?

It does make a difference

Transing is often conversion therapy, r55, to stop people from being gay. The transmedical practiotioners are very into that. You're also overlooking the fact taking medication or getting surgery is a form of conversion therapy, converting the body from its natural state into something else.

R58; I had no idea that parents might be going to a doctor with expressed comments that their young Steve might be gay and the doctor then asks—-have you thought of cutting his dick off and calling him Sally?

Interesting :-)

Yes, conservative parents who don't want their sons to be gay are (checks notes) "transing" them instead.

On what fucking planet is that believable?

Isn’t though r59?

And I loved that transing to stop gayness is not only being suggested by health providers this transing to stop gay is done “often”

And we call maga stupid,

OP, do you need psychological treatment because your straight? It whatever you are?

^^didn't hit the way you planned

"R62, parents are sending their sons to school in the morning and they come back as girls. A lot of people are saying it's happening more and more."

This is the level of discourse on DL now. Next they'll be posting about litter boxes in classrooms for students who identify as cats. They have no clue and make no distinction that the audience they're trolling here isn't the same MAGA indoctrinated crowd they usually hang with.

[quote] And even in bathrooms that have both stalls AND urinals, of course women are going to use the stalls.

Why aren’t there horizontal urinals that a row of women could squat over to do their liquid business? More women could be serviced in less time with that set up. There could still be little partitions so women don’t see each other’s cooch.

One shrink explained that you can't help those people if they are hell bent on other gender. There needs to be [italic]some[/italic] cooperation.

I stopped debating once I realized Trans people did not transition to please me.

Yes, I make everything about myself.

^ Projection Central

I knew two lesbians who asked to be called by their “male” names for a while. Both realized that they were better off being female and stopped after a couple of months. Everyone is different…

OP, do you need psychological treatment because your straight? Or whatrver you are?

R71 Well I’m a gay man but you don’t see me hacking off body parts do you? Or desiring to look like Rachel Levine/Twisted Sister.

It's a tricky and multifaceted issue in some ways, and it probably doesn't need to be. I think some want it to be, and have deliberately tried to make it so.

I believe, in some ways, we almost need to go back to the "old days" of how this all was thought of. It's become very muddied in recent years by people glomming onto the "queer" label and those who are obsessed with gender self identification, in my opinion.

A gay man who dresses up as a woman for entertainment and performance in gay bars and clubs is a Drag Queen. They don't want to be a woman full time. They are not "trans."

A transvestite is a man (could be either gay or straight) who dresses in women's clothing either as a fetish or for some other kind of gratification/emotional well-being. But they live their lives outside of the cross-dressing stints as men. They are not "trans."

A transexual is someone who feels they were born in the wrong body, and even with extensive counseling will never feel comfortable in that body unless they can actually live as the opposite sex full-time, requiring surgical and drug intervention to achieve the goal of presenting a reasonably "passing" version of that sex they feel they should be. Of course, they will never beat the biological realities they were born with, but it's enough to fit into the existence they want and may be more believable and accepted by society than simply throwing on a dress and makeup, etc.

I think a lot of (especially young) people are confused by all of the gender extremism of the past few years. You see people using the blanket term "trans" to essentially encompass all of the above things. Plus, now someone can say they are "trans" because they exhibit a few traits of the the opposite sex, like men wearing makeup or a girl being a butch tomboy. In actuality, they might just be a flamboyant gay man, or a butch lesbian, and nothing more than that. But I can see where people are led to prefer "trans" as a label for these things, because it's newer and shinier, and always talked about. Maybe it's easier to commit to in one's heart and mind than finally just admitting to oneself that you're gay or lesbian, outright. It's like a less acute category to oneself in. It's almost like the radical Trans movement wants to throw a wider net and rally more people to their cause, even if it's just through loosening the definition and perception of what "trans" actually is and making it super broad. It used to mean a transexual, and not simply someone playing around with pronouns to feel unique or special about themselves.

(Continued)... I know a few transexuals and they don't really seem to get the modern "trans" thing, either. Maybe it's because they are older and weren't subjected to all of the confusing messages about this that exist today, back when they were figuring their own situations out.

I personally find the push for educating children about this unnecessary and even disturbing. There are videos out there by educators saying they talk to young kids (seriously, in grade school) about how "when the doctor sees you when you are born, they make a guess about what gender you are," and insisting that children be "encouraged to explore their gender" in the ages 5-10 bucket. I don't think so. Kids don't need to "explore" their gender. They wouldn't give this a second thought at all if it weren't suggested to them. Later on, probably in the teenage years and beyond, someone experiencing gender "dysphoria" starts figuring it out through life experience. Kids are impressionable, and some latch onto "tribes" in adolescence that they will eventually leave behind. However, nowadays a kid saying they are "trans" because they are feeling different and want to belong to something means they may well be led down a medical transition path by a doctor, therapist and their batshit, social media crazed mommy. Looking back, I felt very different as a kid and teen and I know it is because I was gay. Would I think the same as a teen today? Or would I gravitate toward the "trans" label, instead? That's what gets the most attention online, where kids live a lot of their lives now. In some ways it may appear as a "safe space."

Quite a few drag queens that have competed on RuPaul's Drag Race have come out as "trans" in recent years. Some have had full medical transition and some seem to just apply the label to themselves as an "identity." In the latter case, they are still just drag queens and probably very flamboyant and effeminate gay men. But you see how this label has potentially caused confusion for some people.

I have said it before in a post on here, but there used to be the old anecdote for gay men about how you "tried on mom's high heels" as a kid. But most of the gay men who might have done that grew up to me men who were sexually attracted to other men--just your standard gay man. Nowadays, any kid caught wearing mom's high heels probably is at risk of being medically transitioned, depending on their parents and doctors. That's not okay.

Long story short, extensive counseling is needed before medically transitioning anyone, and they need to be an adult (18 or over). None of this calling up a doctor and getting hormones because you have self identified as something, with no questions asked. And as for this "trans" blanket that seems to be thrown over more and more ground, I think the more traditional gay/lesbian/bi definitions stay, and attempts to redefine them by the new "queer" and "trans" brigade are for the birds and must be resisted.

When I acknowledge that you have infinite value and have infinite possibilities, I have to let go and hope you have success balancing that quadratic equation.

R74 according to surveys Gen Z has fewer gay men than they have Trans or BIs. And these Queer and others and +++ numbers are also growing and becoming more and more popular. Gy men numbers over time fairly stable

Good luck on your resisting

So, R56, you're okay with puberty blockers and hormone treatments for kids, but you're not okay with adult drag queens wearing women's clothing and makeup in public? Are you serious?????

R77 I'm not okay with puberty blockers and hormone treatments for kids, which is why I said "a greater amount of therapy and other help should be made available to them before they jump straight into hormones and surgery etc" as per OP's suggestion, and this would apply even more so to minors

Adult drag queens are fine in public when they are participating in drag events, entertainment, parades etc etc. That's completely different from autogynephiles indulging their kink with unconsenting members of the public

So to clarify, R78, you are perfectly okay with puberty blockers, hormone treatments, and even surgery for kids as long as they they have "a greater amount of therapy" first?

And can you please explain more clearly your understanding of the difference between drag queens, transvestites, and "autogynephiles," and also, can you give an example of two of how an autogynephile would indulge their kink with unconsenting members of the public?

The kid should stay in therapy until such time as they are no longer a minor - effectively deferring the puberty blockers, hormone treatments, and even surgery until they are no longer a "kid". If at that point they are still determined to transition they can knock themselves out

Drag queens do drag for entertainment. Transvestites generally do their thing in private, if they doing it in public they are likely autogynephiles

See R43 for examples of how autogynephiles would indulge their kink with unconsenting members of the public

Thanks for clarifying my first question, R80, but I still don't get what you see as the difference between transvestites and autogynephiles. It seems to me more like you're focusing on inappropriate sexual behavior in public, which of course can be committed by anyone, from a cis male to a trans female.

You're very fucking rude and demanding R79/R81. Who do you think you are?

R80 doesn't owe you anything. Fuck off.

Internet Cat Fight

R46 you are patently ridiculous with your gender menu. 3 is fine. Men, Women, Other

R82 seems filled with deep-seated anger, likely caused by self-loathing.