Israel plans to capture all of Gaza

So there it is.

This was the plan all along.

The officials said Israel was in touch with several countries about President Donald Trump's plan to take over Gaza and relocate its population, under what Israel has termed “voluntary emigration" yet which has sparked condemnations from Israel's allies in Europe and the Arab world.

One of the officials said the plan would be implemented gradually. Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were discussing military plans.

Aid workers say the plan to centralize aid, rather than delivering it to Palestinians where they are, will forcibly displace people.

The fighting has displaced more than 90% of Gaza’s population, often multiple times, and turned Gaza into an uninhabitable moonscape.

The UN accuses Israel of wanting to control aid as a ‘pressure tactic’

The U.N. said the plan would leave large parts of the population, including the most vulnerable, without supplies. It said the plan “appears designed to reinforce control over life-sustaining items as a pressure tactic – as part of a military strategy.”

The memo says that the U.S. government has voiced clear support for Israel's plan, but it’s unclear who would provide funding for the private military companies or the aid.

If only Hamas just released all the hostages. but I guess Israel won't let them.

This was predictable from the moment 1,200 children, women and men were slaughtered barbarically by Hamas on Oct 7. That was no mere incident. It’s war.

I wonder what Hamas leaders now think of starting that war on October 7. Did it give them the results they wanted?

You’re a naive little thing aren’t you r5?

Hamas are currently torturing and murdering Palestinian civilians protesting against them.

But Palestine needs to be freed from Israel.

maybe, r6?

I will never have sympathy for Israel or the Jewish people, ever again.

They have lost the goodwill of many, many people around the world.

Israel needs its "lebensraum," too.

R9, this is on the Israelis. Many in the Jewish diaspora can no longer support a country based on ultra-nationalism, racism, grievance and revenge. And I don't think that Israel can stop. They are already seizing land in Lebanon and Syria and expanding further into the West Bank.

Apocalypse now

[quote] I will never have sympathy for Israel or the Jewish people, ever again.

Thank you for being honest about how your feelings are toward both Israel and the Jews. As you know, there are many people who blatantly lie, saying they are only anti-Israel and not anti-Jew.

It’s probably all for the best that my visible reply count in this thread leaps from R8 to R12.

R9 stop conflating Jews with Israel. Every Jew I'm friends with is horrified by Israel right now, they aren't Zionists. What you wrote is deeply anti-semitic and not helpful.

Shocking how the world keeps allowing this genocide to unfold and enter a higher gear with so little political pushback.

R16 - are you referring to the genocide of the Uyghurs in China, what's happening in Sudan, or the genocide in Ukraine?

Because what is happening in Gaza right now is not genocide it's war.

R17 what’s happening in Gaza is a genocide. The resurgence of genocide denialism is a depressing development.

Nah R18, it's war.

When Hamas releases the hostages and stops trying to attack Israel the war will end.

It will probably be a lot safer

[quote] It will probably be a lot safer

There's sure an up side to violently herding other people and shipping them into tight spaces!

R19 read this, and if it doesn’t give you pause or make you reconsider, then you are a broken person.

It's absolutely genocide and you've been indoctrinated, R19. The whole world hates Russia, the US and Israel right now. All three are the same: genocidal authoritarian regimes.

R22, you take Amnesty International seriously? Seriously?

[quote]It's absolutely genocide and you've been indoctrinated, [R19]. The whole world hates Russia, the US and Israel right now. All three are the same: genocidal authoritarian regimes.

Where do you stand on Iran, who are providing Russia with the drones to attack Ukraine, and providing Lebanon, Gaza and Yemen the weapons to attack Israel?

Nice whaboutism, R25.

Most people take Amnesty International seriously. How far out of the mainstream are you to post something so moronic? This is like "conservatives" calling the SCLC a hate group - you just give yourself away as another far right ideologue.

I asked where you stood on Iran R24/R26.

Are you a white supremacist? Do you hold Jews and Europeans to a higher level of accountability than Arabs/Muslims?

[quote]When Hamas releases the hostages and stops trying to attack Israel the war will end.

Will it? The goal posts seem to keep moving, so much that I'm beginning to think the goal posts were built on wheels.

[quote]Most people take Amnesty International seriously. How far out of the mainstream are you to post something so moronic? This is like "conservatives" calling the SCLC a hate group - you just give yourself away as another far right ideologue.

No one should take Amnesty seriously after their pro Russia stance following the invasion of Ukraine.

They're a disgraced ideological organisation who can't be trusted.

I fully support it because now the muslims will know how it is to be thrown off a roof.

Any of our genocide deniers can also have a read through this.

R26: “ Nice whaboutism, [R25].”

This whole thread is whataboutism. OP is asking “what about Gaza”.

R33 wow you’re dumb lol.

r34 ok boomer

For years we heard trans people were being "genocided" and "holocausted".

Now the Irish government is trying to redefine what genocide means so "genocide" means what is happening in Gaza.

And what is happening in Gaza is dreadful - war crimes have undoubtedly been committed by the IDF as they have been by Ukrainian forces. But again, Hamas could release the hostages any time and surrender and the fighting would stop. Hamas are instead murdering Palestinian civilians who are protesting against them.

"I will never have sympathy for Israel or the Jewish people, ever again."

I love how people reveal their true colors with comments like this. Hint: You're supposed to disguise your hatred by saying "Zionists", not "the Jewish people". That's the way the smarter anti-Semites do it.

R36 Israel has thousands upon thousands of Palestinians held hostage, and has had for decades, why is it you only care about the Israeli ones 🤔

[quote]thousands of Palestinians held hostage

Yeah they are "hostages" or "political prisoners" in the same way the January 6th people who stormed the Capitol were "hostages" when they were sentenced for their crime.

R39 pffft the way you freaks will twist the truth for your Israeli overlords is truly bizarre to watch. 25000 kids murdered, outlined plans to move 2million people from their homes and never allow them to return and it’s always “no bc the hostages” give me a fucking break.

R40, you don't seem to give the Palestinians any agency. Do you think they are primitive basic sub human species unable to take any responsibility for their actions?

To be honest a lot of people who consider themselves liberal and "decent" look down on Muslims and "aaaaah" at them as if they can't help themselves and don't know any better.

And of course the Jews SHOULD know better. I mean didn't they learn anything from the Holocaust?

In order to argue whether or not this is genocide, we’d first need to define clearly what a genocide is (and what it isn’t).

That alone may be irreconcilable between the two camps of arguing parties here.

R41 of course I do. None of you people seem to give any agency to the Israelis, it’s always “oh the kids are being murdered by Hamas” even though it’s Israeli rockets killing them. Or it’s “human shields” with absolutely zero evidence. Or “unfortunately these things happen in war” when Israeli soldiers shoot children in the chest. The subject matter of this thread is Israel’s outright declaration thay they are going to seize control of the Gaza Strip and forcibly move 2m people from their homes and all you can do is talk about hostages. Bibi had ample opportunity to recover all of the hostages, but he doesn’t want them, bc his plan the whole time has been to wipe the Palestinians in Gaza from the face of the earth and destroy their society. Deal with that.

[quote]Bibi had ample opportunity to recover all of the hostages, but he doesn’t want them,

So why don't THE PALESTINIANS call Bibi's bluff and just release them all?

If Israel have an evil plan, why are THE PALESTINIANS doing everything that is required of them to allow this planned genocide?

I've been reading about billionaires who are behind the gutting of Gaza to build trump's dream of luxury development on the Strip.

Here's one who is being sued for aiding Hamas to spur the upheaval there to enable their redevelopment the area. Masri is also known to be a secret consultant to trump.

It's all about the billionaires enriching themselves at the expense of those without power.

So again R45 - why don't Hamas release the hostages and lay down their arms so these greedy developers have no claim to Gaza?

Maybe because of the payoff from billionaires?

Why do you assume that if Hamas did that, the greedy developers wouldn't simply do exactly what they want to do with the blessing of the Israeli government, r46? Right now, this all still looks like a massive retaliation, which really means a massive revenge, that may never actually be satisfied. That may be justified because of October 7, but there is absolutely no reason to assume that Israel is ready to end all this crap if Hamas would just lay down arms and release hostages. Israel has said what it wants: the total destruction of Hamas and, now apparently, re-occupation of Gaza where the Gazans will be a permanent subject population which will be governed entirely by Israel, mainly by the IDF probably for years. In other words, only the government of Israel will have real agency going forward, no matter who did or did not have it for the past year or 20 years or 100 years or whatever.

R48 - if Hamas released the hostages and laid down their weapons then the UN could move in to Gaza.

Israel would have no justification for being there.

They did pull out of Gaza back in the 00s if you recall.

Genocide is exterminating a race of people for being of that race. This (and Ukraine) is a war. War is ugly. But Israel does all it can to avoid civilian casualties. It issues them warnings. It tries not to target them. But it’s hard to do when they let Hamas set up its infrastructure of death in, around, and below civilian facilities.

Hamas, alone, has the ability to end this tomorrow. Everyone else can fuck off.

R48, I'm not assuming anything. There is no simple explanation for what's happening in Israel, but we're clearly seeing the trump and his cadre of billionaires are intent on grabbing world resources for themselves at the expense of the planet and all who reside here.

This has always been Israel’s aim, of course.

It just now says it’s doing it to get rid of Hamas.

Once it does get rid of Hamas, will Israel suddenly withdraw? Doubtful

[Quote] But Israel does all it can to avoid civilian casualties. It issues them warnings

Yes, it herds Palestinians into camps, bombs everywhere around the camps, and then says it will bomb the camps.

[Quote] why don't Hamas release the hostages and lay down their arms so these greedy developers have no claim to Gaza?

Israel and Hamas agreed that the fighting would stop once Hamas released the hostages on a specific schedule. Hamas did what was agreed to but then Israel just ignored it and started up the bombing again

[Quote] This was predictable from the moment 1,200 children, women and men were slaughtered barbarically by Hamas on Oct 7. That was no mere incident. It’s war.

This started way before Oct 7

It should also be noted that if Israel truly wanted to commit genocide, that is kill every Gazan, this would have all been over a LONG time ago.

The use of the word genocide to describe this would be laughable, were it not so decidedly unfunny.

I'll post this again:

The Israelis won't stop until all the Palestinians are dead.

And we are not only letting them, we are helping them.

I don't find this particularly laughable.

[quote][R40], you don't seem to give the Palestinians any agency. Do you think they are primitive basic sub human species unable to take any responsibility for their actions?

This troll loves to deflect by putting words in the mouths of anyone who criticizes Israel. Just ignore this person, they don't engage in good faith. Also, the projection can be seen from low orbit.

Congratulations, Uncommitted Movement

R57 is a known troll, the same one who tried to claim Texas was a moderate paradise on earth last week.

[quote]Shut the fuck up, Jew

The pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel people always, always, reveal their antisemitism. They can't help themselves and can only hold it in for so long.

[quote] But Israel does all it can to avoid civilian casualties.

This is the most dishonest thing I've maybe ever read.

Indeed. It specifically targets journalists and academics, for one.

Yes, like the journalists and academics who took part in October 7th.

[quote]you don't seem to give the Palestinians any agency. Do you think they are primitive basic sub human species unable to take any responsibility for their actions?

This is what happens when Palestinians exercise their "agency" ...

R66 I think you’ve misunderstood that the pro Palestinian commenters (me included) are not Hamas supporters. You think the IDF are a good force?

They sure know how to make mass murder, mass destruction and genocide fun!

"Israeli soldiers filmed themselves blowing up a building in Gaza as part of a “gender reveal” celebration."

Hamas started it, slaughtered people and took hostages. Their entire doctrine is about destroying Israel and not stopping until they succeed. Why should Israel give them any mercy? At this point, Israel would be insane to do anything but destroy Hamas after being attacked. It would just be a matter of time until the next attempt if they didn't. Unfortunately Hamas also hides amongst the civilian population and/or has tainted their society to the extent that it's hard to differentiate who is hostile and who isn't. But people in Gaza have voted repeatedly for Hamas, and elections have consequences.

R66 doesn't seen to understand, pro Palestinian IS pro Hamas. Palestinians voted for them and support them and their children grow up to be fighters. The doctrine of the two are quite inseparable now. They are for the killing of all Jews. So given the choice of two warring factions, yes, I pick IDF. I'd pick IDF all day long.

Also, how were the leaders of Hezbollah so much easier to take out? Because they go out in the open and DON’T use civilians as shields.

Lots of genocide supporting Zionists in this thread. It's wild. Murderous cult logic.

Anyone who is killing in the name of a god in 2025 is absolutely insane. Period.

[quote]The Israelis won't stop until all the Palestinians are dead.

The Arabs won't stop until all the Jews are dead.

FIFY

Supposedly it was supposed to be a coordinated pogrom, hamas in the south and hezbollah in the north. For reason I am not sure of, hamas didn't stick to the plan and launched their pogrom on October 7th, followed by palestinian civilians who furthered the initial massacre.

Israel's brilliantly cunning beeper bombings did an wonderful job of taking out many in hezbollah.

I don't give a fuck about gazans at this point. Also, if you think all of this is about the eradication of Israel, you are very mistaken. Israel is facing the tip of the spear at this point but the objective of the war, in all its forms, is a global caliphate.

R67 Damn right I think the IDF are a good force. If there is an abuse by a soldier, which FYI there will ALWAYS be in wartime, they will take care of it and punish those that deserve it. Hamas on the other hand TEACHES its soldiers to behave that way and celebrates them for it. Repugnant evil creatures.

So yeah, as R70 says, I'd pick IDF all day long.

R76 the IDF rape prisoners, shoot children in the chest purposefully, throw Palestinians off buildings, attach Palestinians to the front of vehicles and drive them around, murder journalist, shot 15 aid workers in cold blood and buried them in shallow graves, destroyed aid trucks and murdered the aid workers, block food entry to a country experiencing famine etc etc etc. they are perverse, and the fact that you freaks will sign off on this behaviour is truly one of the most bizarre social or cultural things I’ve ever experienced. And let me guess, you’d describe yourself as a “liberal” 😂

[quote]Hamas started it, slaughtered people and took hostages.

This didn't start on Oct 7. I guess all the Palestinians killed by IDF don't matter. You know, because they're Palestinians

Who knew all you had to do was deny there was a genocide happening?

Everything the Israelis claim about the Palestinians is what Israelis do.

Israelis say the Palestinian demand for right of return is impossible. Yet, This is exactly what Jews demanded in the creation if Israeli.

"River to the Sea" means Palestinians want to kill all Jews. It was also the motto of the Israeli Likud Party--so killing all Palestinians is a-ok.

Palestinians support terrorism. Pre-Israeli terrorist groups like Hagana and Irgun also killed lots of people but they're called freedom fighters because they won.

We can agree, surely, that Netanyahu is a great decision maker and is not doing this for corrupt, self-serving reasons. Right?

That's why the corrupt, disgraced Bibi was shoehorned back into power.

From the river to the sea,

Israel entirely

[quote]This has always been Israel’s aim, of course.

No, Israel left Gaza completely in 2005. It forcibly removed Israeli citizens at huge cost, financial and political.

[quote]the IDF rape prisoners,

And the IDF punishes soldiers who rape prisoners. How many Palestinians has Hamas punished for raping Israelis?

[quote] And the IDF punishes soldiers who rape prisoners.

No R85, they were investigated, but not punished. And Israelis were so incensed by the investigation that they rioted and stormed public buildings in support of the rapists. There is something deeply wrong with their society.

Idk if there’s any data on Hamas punishing its members or not. Do you have any?

R84, Israel pulled out the settlers from Gaza (who had no right to be there in the first place) because it was too expensive to protect them. They wanted to focus their efforts on the West Bank. The PA on the West Bank had disarmed and agreed to cooperate with Israel. It got them worse than nothing: the settlers and the soldiers just kept coming and taking more land. Settlers committed many crimes, including murder, and were never even arrested.

[quote]Israel pulled out the settlers from Gaza (who had no right to be there in the first place) because it was too expensive to protect them)

Even if that were true, it still negates the premise that Israel has always wanted to control Gaza. Israel already has had control of Gaza and voluntarily relinquished that control.

R86, in your specific case the IDF might not have punished the perpetrators. But the IDF has indeed punished soldiers for committing rape and other sexual abuses. Can you say the same for Hamas?

[quote] But the IDF has indeed punished soldiers for committing rape and other sexual abuses.

You show me some figures and examples on this R89.

[quote]But the IDF has indeed punished soldiers for committing rape and other sexual abuses.

R89 won't be able to do that because it never happened R90. It also never happened for the 15 paramedics and rescue workers the IDF [bold]deliberately[/bold] killed and then buried to cover it up either.

U cant take another countrys land and it be seen as ok. How can anyone convince themselves thats ok? Its basicly parenting rule number one, dont take whats not yours. We all know this. So, id love to hear the other side of this debate.

[quote]R67 I think you’ve misunderstood that the pro Palestinian commenters (me included) are not Hamas supporters.

But you're "pro" the same religion Hamas and all the other terrorist groups are killing in the name of. Most of the Western world does not support Islamic terrorism or its adherents.

R93 I’m not pro any religion. I’m not a religious person. I’m not big on any form of religious discrimination though, whether it be anti semitism or anti Muslim hate. It’s funny….all of you all harping on about anti semitism, will in the next sentence say something horrible, ignorant and generalized about Muslims and not realize the total hypocrisy lol.

R17 It’s crazy how selective people are with their outrage. Sudan doesn’t bother people one bit.

[quote]U cant take another countrys land and it be seen as ok.

Beyond the "oh, dear," what country? Palestine? It never existed. It was a region that consisted of city-states. Jordan was part of the British Mandate for Palestine and was recognized as a state. The remainder, called Palestine, was partitioned to create Israel and a Palestinian state. The Palestinians never recognized the partition or the right of Israel to exist. Had they, they'd have five times the area they are now bickering about. The Palestinians have been fucking around for 78 years. They will continue to find out.

Israel has as much right to exist as any of the other countries in the area. Period.

[quote]It’s crazy how selective people are with their outrage. Sudan doesn’t bother people one bit.

How do you know? In any case, the fact is that Sudan doesn't receive $26.38 billion in taxpayer-funded aid from the U.S.

I'm going to build hotels there. It's gonna be tremendous!

Muslims have been massacring Jews since mohammade himself. Jews have had enough and rightfully so. Peaceful coexistence is not possible with islam. The Israelis know this, the Hindus and Buddhist knows this and the West better fucking figure it out quick. It is probably too late for Europe. Christians and the left are in complete denial of history and the current situation.

It's so weird the Palestinian support on this board when Palestinians literally hate them and don't want their support. Palestinians will NEVER EVER stop fighting Jews, never - or stop trying to kill them. The same mentality behind people who support Palestine is the same mentality behind people who champion pit bull rescues - it doesn't matter how many children they devour, they still have a place in those people's bleeding hearts.

The West has a collective moral responsibility to prevent the Palestinians from their explicitly state goal of committing genocide against Israeli Jews and to help Israel defend itself against Palestinian terrorism. That does require a large amount of aid to Israel.

R100, the amount of ignorance, indoctrination, and lack of critical thinking is endemic on this thread in most of the supposed educated class. I think many people simply cannot deal with the horrific truth, what is happening globally and the implications of it all. There is a watch list of 45,000 people of interest in the UK, 95% muslims. Qatar and the muslim brotherhood are funding universities and campus organizations across the US. Somehow, the muslim population in the west has exploded astronomically, in the US since 2005. Everyone sees it but refuse to connect the dots.

The war is on but only the Israelis are fighting it. They have no other choice to. The West is under the lethal delusion that it has choices and we can live in peace and goodness with islam. Not possible and every shred of history for the past 1,500 shouts this at us.

I always see muslims outside malls where I live trying to convert people along with the lunatic Christians. I don’t understand how either religion would be appealing

^^^especially when in islam the penalty for leaving islam is death.

R102 I don't know how familiar you are with America, its history and its ways. I wouldn't be too concerned. They aren't going to let any brown man do too much of anything half as scary as what you think might happen. Being a black American myself, I am fully confident in the full powers of America's deep-seated racism to keep a Muslim extremism at bay. And in this case, I am thankful for that. Most good ole boys are just itchin' for a reason. You give 'em a good one and it's off to the races.

R105, I agree with you, but I have a slightly different take. The U.S. is in a different world. We're obsessed with different immigrants and different domestic terrorists. We have a different set of religious clashes here. The entire Western hemisphere has a tiny percentage of the world's Muslims. It's not an issue that's at the top of our list.

"The Western Hemisphere" already have a problem when political parties are factoring in how to appeal to "the Muslim vote".

Does anyone else care? I don’t. These niggas already had 500 chances to stop attacking Israel and they didn’t. Have any of you considered that maybe these niggas don’t DESERVE a country since they don’t know how to act sane?

Miss, with all due respect, I have my own problems. I have no time to accommodate everyone else's,

R109 Especially, ahem, people who repeatedly cause their own problems.

Good let Israel take over Gaza we don't need another Muslim shithole terrorist country in the ME...all you delicate gay pro Palestinian losers need to get over your suicidal empathy for people who want you dead.

Oh, great.

[quote] US, Israel discuss possible US-led administration for Gaza, sources say

[quote]it's off to the races.

I see what you did there, R105.

Well played.

U.S. peacekeepers/redevelopers may be the only solution to successfully resolve the Gaza problem. I hope we outsource it though, because I don’t want Americans to be hurt by the Palestinian terrorists.

R112, considering the great job we did in Iraq, we should hand over Gaza to Iran right now and get it over with.

[quote]It's so weird the Palestinian support on this board when Palestinians literally hate them and don't want their support.

It's about the fact that we hate Israel.

And if hating Israel makes me an anti-semite then so be it.

For your sake r116, I hope you are not here on a Visa. I'd be afraid to type such things on my phone these days and I am a full-blooded American.

[quote]Peaceful coexistence is not possible with islam. The Israelis know this, the Hindus and Buddhist knows this and the West better fucking figure it out quick. It is probably too late for Europe. Christians and the left are in complete denial of history and the current situation.

This. 100%.

R116, we've known all along it has always been about Jew hatred.

R114 encapsulates the whole insane American mindset

"It's so weird the Palestinian support on this board when Palestinians literally hate them"

WE WILL CHOKE THEIR BATHHOUSES WITH OUR DEAD!

BECAUSE OF TRUMP

R122 Remove Trump now! I'm not going to stop saying it.

I can't even deal anymore with delusional gays who support Islam and its followers who want us all dead....insanity.

They're so ignorant of history r124

It's not going to happen, R123, so do yourself a favor and just move on before you burst an ovary.

Long after Trump is dead and buried, mvslims will still be coming after us, and Jews, and Hindus, etc., as they have for 1,400 years.

^^^^and, especially, women.

Over half a million Muslim civilians have been killed in US-led wars since 9/11, where 2977 were killed. Twenty thousand Gazan civilians have been killed in response to October 7, where 1195 were killed.

Draw your own conclusions and judgments, but we should not forget the actual facts.

R124, I’ve spent most of my life in NYC. Over the years I’ve met and worked with many Muslims, most of them immigrants from all over the Middle East. Cab drivers, pharmacists, surgeons—they’ve all had their chances to kill me. Yet none of them tried. It’s almost as if they’re not, in fact, compelled by Islam to be evil.

[quote]US, Israel discuss possible [bold]US-led[/bold] administration for Gaza, sources say

If this happens then it will lead to another 9/11 style attack on US soil. Anyone with a brain knows this is guaranteed.

R129 That applies to radical fundamentalists. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians and Muslims are not, especially in NY. Unfortunately Hamas is a radical extremist group,, and they refuse to accept Israel as a state and only want their destruction. But Israel is not innocent either. If it weren't for the hard handed tactics of Netenyahu, there may have been some agreement reached over the last 20 years, but each side is dug in hard.

Meanwhile, R129, the supposed peace muslim majority say nothing about all the atrocities being committed by muslims against their neighbors globally, do nothing about imams who preach the destruction of the West and the muslim's obligation to wage jihad to achieve a global caliphate. Don't say the latter is not happening, there are thousands of videos available on the internet of this happening in the US and Europe.

I've lived almost all of my life in NYC. A friend and three acquaintances were massacred by muslims in my city. 24 years later there are crowds marching with ISIS flags, Jews are being attacked outside synagogues, and this islamic jihad shit is being shouted in Times Square.

They find it acceptable if a Muslim kills a Muslim.

Chaos outside Hillel House at Brooklyn College today. This is all about Jew hatred.

The actual fact r128 is - If you fuck around, you find out. Why Muslim extremist haven’t yet taken this fact to the bank is beyond me.

R129, I am not sure how close you were to these Muslim acquaintances. They might not have tried to kill you, but did you ever press them as to what they thought of you as a gay man? I have with some of the Muslim people I crossed paths with in NYC over 26 years. If you did press them you’d find out you’re already dead from your sin in their mind. Or if they are not the one to bring justice for your sin, someone will. So…

Israel is a lying thieving land-grabbing piece of scum.

Gaza and the West Bank do not belong to Israel. GTFO.

They will soon, hopefully r137. God willing.

R138 Which god are you speaking of?

The only kind Muslim’s I’ve met are African women muslims

R136, I would never “press” someone to discuss religion or sexuality. It’s rude. Besides, most people are very judgmental but you can’t live your life worrying about that.

Look if you press most evangelical Christians or most conservative Catholics or Jews, they will sooner or later have to say that they disapprove of the fact that you are gay. They might even admit they think you are living a sinful lifestyle and have separated yourself from God and are probably going to Hell (not sure what the Jews would say about your afterlife). But that doesn't mean they truly want to kill you or think you're dead already or any of that shit.

I suspect for many Muslims it's the same thing. They don't like it, but they recognize that some people are just going to be gay so fuck it, deal with it.

The primary difference for most Westerners, like me, is we see Christianity more from the inside. We are familiar with it. We know its complications and complexities. We don't really, most of us, when it comes to Islam, so we assume it's more of a monolithic religion than it really is, undoubtedly.

R142, no Christian or Jew or anyone in the West would condone homosexuality being a made a criminal offense. Of the 57 muslim-majority countries in 55 or so, homosexual activity is a crime, in 10 of those it is a capital offense. This speaks volumes about what the muslim world thinks about homosexuality. The "they are just like us but a little different" is fucking dangerous nonsense!

European cities, once safe for gays and lesbians (and Jews and women) are no longer. They are all being harassed and attacked by muslims on a regular basis. I don't give a fuck what they say, they will lie to you and smile, the koran allows this, there brutal actions are constant and pervasive.

No genocide here, folks…

Nothing here. Look over there! Right there, not here!

[Quote] This speaks volumes about what the muslim world thinks about homosexuality.

Right wings Jews and Christians detest gays too. In fact, Netayahu’s right wing cabinet proposed anti-gay measures. It was Netanyahu who blocked them.

[Quote] They might not have tried to kill you, but did you ever press them as to what they thought of you as a gay man?

I know Muslims at work and in my neighborhood. They ALL accept me and my partner as gays. You know who doesn’t? Fucking evangelical Christians

That is exactly what EVERY Christian and Jew in the West condoned until very, very recently r143, and I have no doubt there are fundamentalist Christians in the U.S., including Republican office holders, who would love to ban it again if they can get that passed.

I am not saying nothing has changed, or the West and the Middle East are all pretty much the same in our attitudes, but let's not kid ourselves. There is nothing innate in Christianity or Judaism that wouldn't be all for killing gay people if it can get that kind of power again. They showed that for 1000 years.

The only thing holding the Judeo-Christian religions from killing gay is liberal democracy.

As that recedes, the killings will continue

R142, it is useful to look at the history of Christianity and realize that for most people religion isn't a deep thing. It's what you are born into; you are a believer because you are a part of your community. I doubt that most people have ever had the spare time and energy to be fanatics. Besides, if you poke any "religious" conflict you discover it's about land or power. Religion is just a cover story.

I mostly agree r149. I do think it's possible for people to be hate-filled and violent for purely religious reasons (like in the Thirty Years War), but when you look at Israel and Gaza, it's clearly a combo of religion, and land and tribalism and colonialism and ethnic bullshit and a lot of other things. And sadly, once the cycle of violence starts, partly it just keeps feeding on itself.

Why are Dataloungers presenting this false choice? Either you support Israel without question, or you are begging to be thrown off a building.

And the (unsubstantiated) charge that Muslims in European cities have suddenly put once-safe women and gays and Jews at risk is meant to instill fear. Europeans perfected oppression of all three groups well before any Muslim refugees arrived.

You can support Israel and Jews and still be appalled by the actions in Gaza, particularly the subset of this thread It doesn’t mean you are for sharia law. However, you will probably get a forced time out on Datalounge.

[quote] no Christian or Jew or anyone in the West would condone homosexuality being a made a criminal offense.

Yeah right. Except the Christian right is working to do exactly that here in America.

And then there's this.

[quote]And the (unsubstantiated) charge that Muslims in European cities have suddenly put once-safe women and gays and Jews at risk is meant to instill fear. Europeans perfected oppression of all three groups well before any Muslim refugees arrived.

You can fuck right off. Ethnic Europeans in 2025 are very liberal and gay people are no issue. Muslims are the real threat.

I swear, sometimes I think somebody is being paid actual money to come on here and completely derail any good-faith discussions on this topic.

R151, no one has that much time to be so nuanced about an issue that honestly doesn’t affect 99% of the people talking about it. We all have much bigger, personal problems facing us. It’s not all or nothing. But given the choice for Israel or for Palestine, I am for Israel. I am against Muslim fundamentalist. There isn’t 1/10 of the nuance in their hatred of Jews as you are begging others to have on an issue that doesn’t concern them.

R151 It’s hard to have a good faithed conversation with someone who uses a phrase like “You can support Israel and Jews and still be appalled by the actions in Gaza.”

Had you phrased it “…and be saddened for what’s happening to Gazans as they endure the consequences of what their ‘government’ inflicted on them by launching one of the most insidious actions history has ever seen”, then I might have been able to have a conversation.

I do feel sad for what’s happening to Gazans. I do. But I am most decidedly NOT appalled by the actions Israel is taking. They have no choice if they wish to survive as people. And it’s disgusting Hamas put them in a place where they have to do what they’re doing.

^^^^To R157-I agree with you, I feel bad for the children, but in that situation, they're going to be "baby terrorists anyway"^^^

Israel has to destroy Hamas.

r90, I don't have any figures, but here's an example:

R159 don’t worry, I found one with figures for you ;)

[quote] Israeli soldiers accused of harming Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip over the last five years have been indicted in less than 1% of the hundreds of complaints against them, an Israeli rights group reported. The watchdog argued that Israel's military systematically fails to conduct a credible prosecution of itself.

[quote] Between 2017 and 2021, the Israeli military received 1,260 cases of alleged offenses by Israeli soldiers against Palestinians, including 409 cases involving the killing of Palestinians, according to military data obtained by the group Yesh Din and released Wednesday after a freedom of information request.

[quote] The Israeli military opened 248 criminal investigations into instances of possible misconduct in response to those complaints — just 21.4% of the total, Yesh Din said. Only 11 investigations during that five-year period have yielded indictments. In those cases, Israel’s military prosecutors acted with leniency toward convicted soldiers, the group added, with those sentenced for killing Palestinians serving only short-term military community service.

If you listen to the accounts of numerous former IDF soldiers collected by the organization Breaking the Silence, you'll find that many of them struggled with their conscience during military operations. Its director, Nadav Weiman, has said that many soldiers refuse to carry out orders--they acknowledge that burning down people's homes and destroying entire neighborhoods has less to do with defeating Hamas than with endangering the lives of ordinary Palestinians. Weiman has described the sense of shock he felt when, in the Jenin refugee camp 20 years ago, he found himself face to face with a sleeping child. That's when he started wondering: "Can this really be characterized as self-defense"?

Now tell me how many, if any, Palestinians have been punished by Hamas for abusing Israelis.

R162 idk what your point is. Not a single person on this thread is endorsing Hamas, whereas a bunch of you weirdos are endorsing the IDF. Therefore the behaviour of the IDF is more relevant when talking to other commenters about it. You can trace your way back through the comments and see this.

Also obviously there’s not going to be as much information or statistics available about how Hamas operates.

And obviously the most salient item to compare is how many children or civilians either force has murdered. The IDF has killed 50+ times as many as Hamas. It’s very clear who the bad guys are here.

R161 I totally get that. Which is why I go back to the comment that I am disgusted that Hamas put Israel in a place that they had to do this to survive.

Israelis don’t want want to inflict suffering. But fucking Hamas built their empire of evil below civilian facilities everywhere. The bile that is Hamas has no parallel on the planet today.

R164 stop taking Israel’s responsibility away from it. Hen Israeli rockets kill Palestinian children it is Israel’s responsibility nobody else’s. Be honest with yourself.

[quote] Israelis don’t want want to inflict suffering.

It seems to be all they want to do actually. There’s a deep sadism in Israeli society towards Palestinians.

No one is endorsing the IDF weirdo at R163. People ARE saying they don’t blame them for what they are doing given the fucking relentless nut jobs they are up against. There IS a difference.

R165 Fuck. That. If Hamas decided to build shit below a children’s school, that is on Hamas. I hate that children died. But that is on Hamas, not Israel. And that is just another example of how satanic Hamas is.

Hamas build their underground infrastructure so that they will have Palestinian citizen casualties should Israel retaliate. They are willing to allow thousands of their own be sacrificed for their cause.

Why did the Israeli government allow Hamas to build its network of tunnels, an effective underground war machine?

R167 no sorry. Israeli bombs coming from Israeli rockets authorized by Israeli army = Israeli responsibility. When an Israeli sniper shoots a child in the chest, or bombs a school or hospital or refugee camp, they are solely responsible for the children killed. You sound like a nut job trying to excuse everything away, and nobody accepts that bullshit anymore fyi. If I reversed things and said Israel were responsible for all deaths on Oct 7th bc of land grabs in the West Bank you’d say I was taking responsibility away from Hamas (and rightly so).

I love this for them

Israel wants to take out Hamas military capability. Hamas knows that westerners freak out over civilian deaths. Hamas itself doesn't seem to care that its civilians are killed. I write that because Hamas has for years now used civilian facilities for military use. Hamas spent years planning the October 7 attacks. And part of that planning was putting its tunnels beneath civilian areas, including schools. Thus, in order for Israel to take out Hamas military capability, Palestinian civilians will be killed. Why do you think Hamas put its military sites in tunnels beneath civilian facilities? I think it's obvious Hamas wanted Israel to kill its civilians. But people who attack Israel seem unwilling to consider this. I think westerners assume that because they're upset about civilian deaths, Hamas personnel must also care about them, no matter how much the facts indicate otherwise.

[quote] Hamas itself doesn't seem to care that its civilians are killed.

Life is cheap in the Muslim world. A lot of Westerners don't understand this.

R173 you’re right but I wonder why Muslims keep bitching about all the Palestinians killed when Palestinians themselves are willing to kill themselves for Allah.

[quote]Not a single person on this thread is endorsing Hamas

The Palestinians elected Hamas. They are responsible.

They are somewhat responsible. But Hamas has not allowed any elections thereafter. The Palestinians in Gaza really have no way to depose Hamas.

[quote]The Palestinians elected Hamas. They are responsible.

True, but more importantly, there can no Hamas without the continuing support of the Palestinian people. It's the same as the fact that the Nazis could not stay in power, could not conduct the Final Solution, without the support of the German people. The German people were responsible for the Nazis and the Palestinian people are responsible for Hamas. In both cases, they justifiable suffered for that support. The civilized world has rejected the claim that there was nothing that the people could do about it.

[QUOTE] The Palestinians elected Hamas. They are responsible.

[QUOTE] True

No, it’s not true. Please stop with this bullshit. Those elections were in 2006! Not a single one has been held since. What kind of fucking representative government stays in power for damn near 20 years without a vote?

The new government after those elections never really formed and actually governed. Hamas and Fatah broke out into a civil war months afterward, the government was dissolved and Hamas and the Palestinian Authority forcefully split the Palestinian Territories between them. The land that Hamas “governs” was taken by blood, not as the result of any elections. There are SOME Palestinians who voted for Hamas to have representation in a parliamentary system 20 years ago. They did not vote to give Hamas supreme authority over any and everything. Many Palestinians there today hadn’t even been born when those elections took place.

Even a dictatorship depends on the support of the people, and when that support ends, the dictatorship ends (ex. Ceaușescu). As the German people supported the Nazis during Hitler's reign, so have the Palestinian people supported Hamas and have refused to rise up against them. They have justifiably suffered the consequences of that support. Hamas could not stay in power without the ongoing support of the Palestinian people.

The Israeli government can’t even take out Hamas and you expect ordinary Palestinian civilians to do it, R179? How exactly are they supposed to do that? Hamas is armed to the teeth with weapons and financing from Iran and Palestinians are struggling to get food, shelter and clean water. Meanwhile they’re supposed to take on Hamas in the meantime? With what?

[quote]The Israeli government can’t even take out Hamas and you expect ordinary Palestinian civilians to do it, [R179]?

Don't be daft. The Israelis could turn Gaza into a parking lot if they chose to. While you may not believe it, they are concerned with collateral damage and world opinion.

[quote]Hamas is armed to the teeth with weapons and financing from Iran and Palestinians are struggling to get food, shelter and clean water.

And what then, do you expect the Israelis to do? How do they defend their people and country?

R175 and the Israeli people support the IDF, who are carrying out violence and sadism many times greater than that of Hamas.

As they should r182? Thank goodness. Can you imagine the depths of the horror if the power dynamic was reversed? Hamas or no Hamas, Palestinians would still be arresting and beheading gays if they weren’t struggling for survival right now. I don’t know what kind of people you’re fighting for r182.

I still can't find an explanation for how it was possible that the Israeli government simply looked on while Hamas spent years (and close to an estimated billion dollars) constructing its 350/400-mile-long network of underground tunnels, effectively turning Gaza into a military fortress. "Not even" ChatGPT can provide an answer.

R184, what could they do? They couldn’t just go in unprovoked and stop them by military force (at least not with the extreme force it would take to stop them) without gaining the ire of the entire world. Remember these are the days before Israel knew people would hate them no matter what they did.