I am completely unable to wrap my head around the whole nonbinary thing

It's the conflation of sex with gender.

Sex is biological. Gender is a social construct, to some degree based in biology. One can choose or reject a gender role at any time. One can't really choose or reject sex, unless in the very small minority of hermaphrodites -- whose parents usually choose for them.

R1 = Academy Award Winner JLC, Hollywood baby, mother to a trans child, award winning actor

I am completely unable to wrap my head around the whole Calculus thing. Doesn't mean it isn't true or doesn't exist.

Gender is a social construct, and on a spectrum. Sexuality is on a spectrum. Sometimes they align in ways people accept, and sometimes they don't. No one protests about gender affirming care like going to the beauty parlor, getting a new dress, or taking viagra. Everyone accepts a spectrum of females who wear flannel shirts and jeans to women who wear dressed, make up and high heels - it's just when someone experiences gender from another spot on the spectrum that people get uncomfortable. I don't know why this is. Basically - people need to live their lives and others need to just keep walking or stop looking if they don't like it. If you can't understand how someone else can experience these things differently than you do, that's fine - but it's no one's job to make people miserable and abuse them and try to take their rights away. Live and let live. We're not here very long - and really, how on Earth does it have any impact on you or anyone else? As long as no one is being abused or forced in to anything, I can't imagine why anyone else would give it a second thought. If you don't want to wear a dress, don't - if you don't want to marry a man, don't - if you don't want an abortion, don't get one.....it's as simple as that.

OP interesting and important questions.

If you jack off and you are thinking about sue you may not be gay and if you jack off and are thinking about Paul you may not be straight.

Although I have no idea what a non binary person might be thinking because let’s face it who gives a fuck what other people are thinking about when they jack off.

Although if you are an alleged gay man and you like to watch straight porn you are really Bi deep down inside, it’s science. If this does not wrap your head I can go on

I hope this has been helpful

[quote]Sexuality is on a spectrum.

Do you mean 'sex' or 'sexuality'?

You don't need to understand it, OP. Just be nice to everyone.

OP are you the poster very concerned with the lumping issues.? If so that would explain a lot.

I don’t understand why people can’t live how they want, love who they love, dress how they please, and just refrain from placing so much importance on whether they are”male” or “female” or “both” or “neither.” Who really cares? Maybe doctors need to know, but no one else does.

I guess language forces us into categories, but does it have to? Why do we need different pronouns for people?

R9 a school teacher could wear a dress and present as a woman one day and a man in a suit the next? Would you hire someone for an important sales position for a company and have no idea how they will present to clients, male, female, take a guess?

We live in the real world. People call different things by different names. That is just the way it is. Otherwise we could just call everyone “ the people” or anything other than people “ the objects”

Your question in part though is why Harris lost the election. That’s not close tonthe country you live in or ever will. You live in a much different America.

OP, are you twelve years old?

It's just spam.

Is it really that complicated to think that people don't want to buy into the whole charade of male/female gender roles and having to fit into those?

Do they require your specific head-wrapping before they’re allowed to live their lives?

[quote] Gender is a social construct, and on a spectrum.

But so is race, and we don't claim you can be non-raced.

Their name is Pat!

It’s about fashion / appearance, OP.

One of my ride-or-die best friends of over 25 years and ex-roommate--we'll call her Gemma--she's one of the most sexually confusing people I know, and she fascinates me for this reason. She's the person in my life outside of partners that I've discuss sexuality with the most because she's just so open and curious about it, and because I'm pretty boring when it comes to my sexuality--I'm a relatively vanilla gay top that has never questioned/struggled with my gender or sexuality, pretty much since the age of 10.

Gemma mostly has sex with men, but is also deeply attracted to butch women (and has fallen in obsessive love with a few over the years, even though she grows bored of the sex almost immediately). She likes very masculine men who also have secret cross-dressing fetishes and are bi-curious. They can't be overtly "gender queer" or whatever when she first meets them though, otherwise she has no attraction. They also can't be overtly submissive or in any way "femme". Basically, she likes very closeted masc, straight, alpha types that she can dig gender and sexual curiosity/conflict out of. She likes to fuck these men with strap-ons but would never be interested in using one with women. She exclusively watches gay male porn. She also has been attracted to the odd trans man. She has zero attraction to bisexual women. Gemma herself is extremely femme and has never struggled with her gender identity in any way--but her entire sexuality is made up of different attractions to people with very specific gender/sexuality conflicts. I can't think of any neat title for her because her sexual proclivities are so niche and specific, yet so oddly diverse. If she were Gen Z, she would probably call herself "queer", but she is not and she would never. She calls herself straight, because no other label fits better or worse than that and she finds anyone who identifies as "queer" to be tiresome. She's basically a rash of sexual contradictions. We've had many frustrating debates over the years because it's hard for me to understand just what the fuck she is or what she wants (because that's just the kind of person I am) but she has no internal struggle as such.

I bring this up because if someone like my friend can have this messy of a sexuality, where no label seems to fit exactly right, it makes it easier for me to understand how the same can apply to someone's gender identity. And I think this has always been true throughout history--we just never had the sheer amount of labels available to us now to sort ourselves into. My friend Gemma could be queer, bisexual, heteroflexible, pansexual, "pretty much straight" as she says...but the label doesn't change who she is as a person, since every 10 years or so a new label pops up that she could easily switch to and would just as accurately explain her proclivities as well or as poorly as the last one trending.

All this to say, "non-binary" seems to me to be the LEAST exhausting label because it encompasses everything and nothing that one could identify with in sexuality and gender. Some people need a label that accurately describes their "messiness", some don't. Some people who are probably far-less complicated than they think prefer the label of non-binary, and others who are a thicket of contradictions like my friend are just fine with the label of "straight". The labels, at the end of the day, do very little to accurately describe the vast majority of gender and sexual experiences and combinations. But the human species loves to label and always will.

[quote]Is it really that complicated to think that people don't want to buy into the whole charade of male/female gender roles and having to fit into those?

R13 What has made it that complicated?

Oh look, another anti-trans thread.

OP sounds like the straight people who always start a conversation about gay people with who does what to whom.

Fly your freak flag but please don't confuse biological sex with gender, gender with lifestyle, lifestyle with deserving equal rights, or your fetishes with foundational human truths applicable to everyone.

And a clown is a clown no matter who s/he//they are fucking.

This is just academic/political bullshit that's been circulating since the 1960's. The concept of gender being a social construct can be pinpointed to Michel Foucault's writings at the start of the decade. He also claimed crime and madness were social constructs but only gender has gained traction... Why? Who benefits?

It's a trend. This too shall pass.

R3 Calculus is math which has an actual answer.

Gender ideology does not have direct or straight answers and can change anytime.

R13 A lot of people don’t and haven’t for hundreds of years, they have just never labeled it as an identity they want to be recognized by the government.

The other extreme is to claim that all humans fall into 2 distinct gender categories without overlap and that all members of either category must either conform to a whole gender-determined slew of habits, social behaviors, presentations, interests, preferences and physical characteristics, or else be at best, marginalized or at worst labeled freaks or deviants

Our culture is still obsessed with treating “men” and “women” as distinct monolithic social groups,

even though there has never been more overlap between the roles performed by each in keeping the world running

even though we live in a time when the general biological differences separating men from women have less impact on the social functions we perform than ever before in human history.

The non binary movement recognizes how outdated and ill suited traditional gender roles are for organizing a society as technologically advanced as ours.

If biological sex is so irrelevant to the functions we perform in society why should we have it dictate so many other superficial parts of our identity?

If we want to do needlework on Monday, and play flag football on Tuesday and wear lingerie on Wednesday and build a bookcase on Thursday and fuck a woman on Friday and a man on Saturday and call ourselves Gina or Harold or Denise or frank, why can’t we just do that?

In the past there might have been reasons for this division but every day they become less and less and this “non binary movement” is simply the expression of the new conditions we live in

You don't understand it because it is pure NONSENSE.

Except R26 if people are divided into binary and non-binary that's still two categories so still binary. Does the "movement" know what an oxymoron is?

R26 That is just about the stupidest things I’ve ever read. Much of the world has broken gender roles. There are female presidents all over the world and men who cook and sew. It is quite logical in the modern world for men and women to break gender stereotypes. What is not logical is for people to pretend to be something that doesn’t exist, like a male/female/both male and female/neither male or female mashup that switches identities depending on the day of the week and what mood they are in. If one says “I am a girl when baking and I am a boy when changing a tire,” that is idiotic and regressive as you can possibly get

I don't like it when a person demands to be called 'they' and freak out that I didn't know that already.

I get a person -- or people -- wanting a different term. But 'they' changes grammar.

Demi Lovato is a 'they'. You invite they and their family to dinner; only the family cancels.

"They're still coming."

How much food do you make.

OP: I agree with you.

R30 Demi Lovato is no longer a they. She got tired of that shit after about a year and went back to being a woman again. Interestingly, no surgery was required to go back-and-forth.

I am completely unable to wrap my head around how this is difficult in 2025. I think I first read about it in 2009. It wasn't hard to grasp.

R29 it’s like you still don’t understand the difference between biological sex and gender.

Biological sex is your chromosomes.

Gender is all the codes of behavior and rules and expectations thrust upon a baby when they are revealed to be either a boy or a girl

To be gender non binary is to fully reject those codes or behavior or expectations as having any say in determining what you do or do not do, ward or do not wear, say or do not say.

Male/female is determined by biology man/woman is determined by culture.

No where is this more apparent than in the language of the gender essentialist who will say at one moment that there are only 2 sexes, then at the next moment chide a man for not acting “man enough” - this is a paradox. If all men are men, then any behavior a man exhibits should be “man enough”

You claim these rules are broken because the world has seen woman presidents- but this country hasn’t, and it’s one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard to suggest that gender based discrimination doesn’t happen just because there has been a woman president.

[quote] if people are divided into binary and non-binary that's still two categories so still binary. Does the "movement" know what an oxymoron is?

Lmao R28 you thought you ate with that.

R34 I don’t understand your argument. Are you saying that if you face discrimination because of your sex, that you should just “identify” your way out of it? That’s not realistic. are you seriously suggesting that if you are female, you can avoid discrimination by simply calling yourself something other than a woman? My God, is this really how millennials in Gen Z think?

And this thread is an example of why Trump became president. That buffoon ran his mouth about immigration and inflation.... things average Americans understand.

Like this thread, Democrats rambled on and on about trans and non-binary issues that 90% of Americans don't understand and view as ridiculous.

The Republicans may be awful but the Drmocrats look like fools for stumbling around unnecessarily involved gendered issues.

[quote] This is just academic/political bullshit that's been circulating since the 1960's. The concept of gender being a social construct can be pinpointed to Michel Foucault's writings at the start of the decade.

No, that's not right. It was Judith Butler who was most famous for developing and popularizing the idea (perhaps first put forth in the 40s in Simone de Beauvoir's The Second Sex) that gender is a construction; but Butler did not do so until several years after Foucault was dead.

Foucault actually has very little to say about gender. You're getting Butler's book confused with Foucault's four-volume History of Sexuality, but that did not come out in the 1960s... that came out in the 1970s.

R5/R8: 'non-binary' is about gender *presentation*, not about sexual attraction/behavior/orientation/preference.

To quote a DLer: "There are thousands of ways to be a woman and thousands of ways to be a man. 'Non-binary' is the idea that there are limited ways of being a man and limited ways of being a woman and that if you don't align with them you have to pretend to be neither."

*R5/R18

No r40 non binary is the idea that there are thousands of possible ways to be a person and

for some people

the best way to access those thousands of possibilities, and escape the limitations that traditional gender roles impose upon those thousands of possibilities, is to step past them, allowing neither polarity to dominate or limit them in embodying their true nature.

R39 Hence, why I said:

[Quote]I bring this up because if someone like my friend can have this messy of a sexuality, where no label seems to fit exactly right, it makes it easier for me to understand how the same can apply to someone's gender identity.

Look at me.

Look. At. Me.

LOOK AT ME!

R42 So what you’re saying is that if I’m a normal non-mentally ill male who identifies as a man like most other non-mentally ill men, then I’m limited to only doing stereotypically male thinks like working on cars and watching football? And if I want to something outside those traditional roles like baking a pie or sucking a cock I have to change my label and call myself something else besides a man?

Forgive me for asking this, but isn’t this kind of bullshit exactly what gay and lesbians activists (and feminists) fought against decades ago?

A (not overly precious or obnoxious about it) non-binary person I met at a party once explained their disconnection to gender in the best way I've ever heard it, and made me maybe understand what it actually meant for the first time. They said something like...

"I always think of my gender as a paper wristband that decides where I'm allowed to go and how people treat me. It does inform my identity to some extent because it informs my experiences, and I guess I share a lot of those experiences with other people who have that wristband. But it's not me and it's not for me. It doesn't hurt and I usually forget it's there if I'm not reminded of it. But I do wish I didn't have to wear it."

As a gay man, the ways I do not subscribe to traditional gender roles and traditional masculinity are legion, and because of that, there have certainly been social consequences over the course of my life in varying degrees of severity. But in every instance that I have rejected those prescribed gender constructs I never DIDN'T feel like a man. If I was in full drag while deepthroating a cock with a souffle in the oven, I would still FEEL exactly as much a man as I'd feel in a smelly football jersey at a superbowl party while belching up beer. I never don't feel like a man and never don't love feeling like a man no matter what I'm wearing, how I'm acting, or what I'm doing. And that's why, yes, there are a thousand different ways to be a man and a thousand different ways to be a woman, but if you don't inherently FEEL like a man or a woman, it doesn't matter what you're wearing/how you're acting/what you're doing--nothing is going to give you that feeling. In the same way that no matter how long or how hard I attempted to perform heterosexuality, I would never actually feel it.

[quote]I am completely unable to wrap my head around the whole nonbinary thing

Do you need to? Just get on with your own life.

R47 Exactly. It's like monogamous and poly-type people forever trying to discredit the legitimacy of the other group in order to reaffirm the certitude of their own wiring. Neither group is ever going to truly "get" the other--but why in the fuck do they feel they need to in order to just live their own truth?

Yes, biological sex is not a feeling, but gender absolutely is, and it has every right to be. You're never going to be able to "logic" someone into feeling something the exact way you do and there's absolutely no reason you should have to.

i’m genuinely curious to know. What exactly does “gender“ feel like? Because I’m a man, but I don’t walk around all day consciously thinking about whether or not I feel like a man.

[quote]i’m genuinely curious to know. What exactly does “gender“ feel like? Because I’m a man, but I don’t walk around all day consciously thinking about whether or not I feel like a man.

I’m afraid you’re not self indulgent or narcissistic enough to be able to understand.

R49 I don't think gender is ever something anyone thinks about consciously every waking moment. I just know that if I was asked whether I "felt" like a man, I wouldn't even have to consider it before answering yes, decidedly. And I know that when someone else sees me or hears me or in any other way perceives me to be a man, it doesn't feel like they're not accurately sharing my own internal perception of my gender.

I'll never know what heterosexuality feels like in the same way that many heterosexuals will know what homosexuality feels like--but that doesn't mean I deny it exists just because I don't personally experience it.

^*in the same way that many heterosexuals will never know

R24 calculus does not have an answer I could ever find. That is bullshit.

[quote]binary is the idea that there are thousands of possible ways to be a person and for some people the best way to access those thousands of possibilities, and escape the limitations that traditional gender roles impose upon those thousands of possibilities, is to step past them, allowing neither polarity to dominate or limit them in embodying their true nature.

These are all self-imposed limitations. Besides, whatever complex identity you assign yourself to suit your individual personality, you cannot control other people's perception of you. They will see you as male or female no matter what.

That someone is so triggered by this makes me wonder if people like OP are a bit non-binary themselves.

[quote]No one protests about gender affirming care like going to the beauty parlor, getting a new dress, or taking viagra. Everyone accepts a spectrum of females who wear flannel shirts and jeans to women who wear dressed, make up and high heels - it's just when someone experiences gender from another spot on the spectrum that people get uncomfortable.

A man who can't get an erection without viagra is still male. A woman who doesn't wax her bikini line is still female. A man who waxes his chest is still male.

The whole non binary identify ENFORCES stereotypes about gender - the British actresses who claim to be non binary - Mae Martin, Emma Corrin, Emma D'arcy, that weird girl from The Last Of Us - don't conform to the Barbie stereotype so want to claim that they're not really women or not really female. Women have had short hair and worn suits for centuries but these young (mostly very posh) women are determined to be treated as special. And it promotes the idea that there is a clearly defined way to be a woman. Dylan Mulvaney is a tired old drag act but people treat him like a woman because he plays up to all of the tired and harmful stereotypes.

[quote]Mae Martin, Emma Corrin, Emma D'arcy, that weird girl from The Last Of Us

They all make an extremely comfortable living playing exclusively women. At least the Sting spawn tried (and failed) to pass as male in "Ripley."

"unable to wrap my head around the whole nonbinary thing"

I also think that about a lot of things, but then I also think... why do I even have to wrap my head around it? I don't have to understand everything. I don't know why certain friends find certain celebrities attractive - when, to me, they might look hideous.

It's a not insignificant social phenomenon of our time. With certain online bios of individuals written entirely in the third-person plural, we're regularly reminded of its existence. Why *wouldn't* an inquisitive person want to try to make sense of it?

Non binary really doesn't make much sense. We are all half male and half female. We used to call them Mommy & Daddy.

Or why would any sane person care enough to make sense if it.

[quote] That someone is so triggered by this makes me wonder if people like OP are a bit non-binary themselves.

If gender is truly a construct, as your ideology posits, that makes no logical sense.

You're suggesting that posters who resist your line of reasoning that gender is solely a construct are somehow [italic]essentially[/italic] non-binary, and are in denial about it.

OP- Wrap your head around THIS-

Anyone who identifies as non binary are in ANOTHER DIMENSION 😵

R62 - I agree - everyone keeps parroting "gender is a construct" over and over - with no proof or backup. It's a like people keep repeating like 'trans women ARE women' - yes, they are a type of women, but they aren't bio women whatsoever.

It's the same brainless repeating of some phrase they like and saying it as if it's undeniably true. It isn't.

If gender were not a construct then all the habits quirks and conventions we’ve built up around biological sex differences would be cross culturally consistent, around the world, throughout time.

And yet…

Reactions to a 5 year old boy who likes playing with his sister's dolls

1950s: "There's something wrong with Edward, maybe take him to football classes to toughen him up"

1990s "Would Edward like a Barbie for Christmas?"

2020s "Oh, is Edward trans? Are you going to change his name to something more feminine?"

R65 - so provide examples how vastly different they are. Let's start with men - how are men's roles and expectations so vastly different around the world?

For starters I would compare the way American hockey fans and European soccer fans celebrate a victory. From there we could take a walk through an art museum and compare paintings of powerful men throughout time, they way they dress, present and have been stylized through art to conform to certain cultural values.

We could look at the role of men in some of the matriarchal societies that have existed

And then we could examine the world view of distinctly recognized separate gender classifications as the Hijra in South Asia, the Métis in Nepal, the muxe in Mexico, two spirited people in Native American cultures and the Fa'afafine in somoa.

See, the concept behind “non binary” and the idea of multiple gender classifications isn’t anything new to the world. It was t something your pink haired barista made up in their head while they made your Americano.

There are multiple cultures that have established traditions of separate gender classifications for people who, in some cases, are considered to carry both genders, and ,in others, to flow fluidly between genders sometimes one, then sometimes the others

Ask anyone who works in anthropology and they will back up what I’m saying. So much that we assume about our nature is actually a cultural construct, including our ideas what our genitals dictate about our nature

R68 - what are you talking about? The degree of celebration and the way people dress is cultural for various reasons. It's not based on gender.

How artists portray powerful men?

You say these statements without giving any details or proof. HOW exactly is the difference in celebrating a victory a gender construct? You just say it without any evidence or detail.

How are powerful men portrayed and styled a gender construct? You like to state things as fact - when it's just making a statement and then walking away. Just like 'gender is a construct' - you just say it and can't provide examples or details.

It ALL falls apart under scrutiny, R69. For example, how is it that Judith Butler is both non-binary *and* lesbian? I suppose their way around that is by saying she is a "non-man attracted to other non-men."

The problem was never when the argument was that gender was a construct. The problem started when people insisted that sex was a construct.

SEX IS A CONSTRUCT HAVEN'T YOU HEARD OF CLOWN FISH??????

R1 Gender is not a social construct. Nonbinary people are just attention whores and can't accept that they are just boring gays and lesbians.

R69 why didn’t you address the examples I did give?

I’m not writing an academic paper I’m posting on a message board in the midst of other important real life things I need to get done.

. If you need footnoted in-depth reporting on the things I touched upon I encourage you to seek out some of the readily available writing on the subject that can be located with a quick google search.

I still don’t even understand your argument. Do You think all people with dicks think behave and function the same way in all societies? That they are hard wired to lead, dominate and conquer? That they are hunters? That all women are looking for the right man to dominate them? Trust fund 6’5” blue eyes etc?

Because there are a lot of people arguing these things right now . And when they encounter people who aren’t aligned with this they demonize and pathologist those people.

Gender studies approach this question with the understanding that the conventions we impose on people based on their gender are very often informed by culture rather than biology. The rules for being a man or a woman vary by culture, by time period and also by class

European men kiss and hug when their team wins. American guys would never. Timothy Chalamet can show up to a film premiere in high heels and pearls and have his heterosexuality unquestioned. An hvac technician in Detroit could never do that.

To accept non binary status is to shine a spotlight on all the hypocrisy of our unspoken gender norms and suggest that there are much more important ways for us to consider and classify our selves our potentials and our roles in the world

I’m done addressing your questions until you address one of mine can you explain to me why it is so important that the person serving you coffee be classified as either a man or a woman, when their function has nothing to do with their biological bits.

For instance Timothy Chalamet

R34 Race is a younger social construct. Does all of this apply to race? Are black kids adopted by white people white?

*disregard last Timothy Chalamet reference lol (as I’m sure you do with most of his mentions) shame on me for not proofreading

A black child would absorb a lot of cultural programming from their adopted family and also absorb an understanding of their self via the way they were treated by peers, teachers, shop owners, co workers and authority figures such as traffic cops.

They would not experience the world the way a white sibling would.

Race is a construct in the sense that a pale skinned person with 7 European and 1 African great grandparents will be considered "black" in the same way that someone with 8 African great grandparents would be considered "black".

R73 THIS!

r74 - me address the examples you gave? You just made a couple of statements and didn't follow-up how any of that is a gender construct.

See this is the bullshit we're all talking about - turning the tables around when you can't defend your statements.

European men do not kiss and hug more at celebrations - what the fuck are you talking about? Talk about going into stereotypes. And American men DO hug and put their arms around each other during a victory. But what the fuck does that have to do with gender constructs? Both will jump up, yell and scream at a goal, high-five, hug the person next to them. It's called being excited, you fool.

Women do the exact same thing!

You haven't addressed a single question. Now what the fuck are you talking about now about the person serving coffee? Who is classifying coffee servers by gender? Now you're just making nonsensical shit up.

R80 how do you spin the fact that there are many cultures around the world, quite a few of which I have listed, that have more than 2 genders?

[quote][R80] how do you spin the fact that there are many cultures around the world, quite a few of which I have listed, that have more than 2 genders?

Do Italian priests get classed as a third gender? They wear dresses and don't have sex with women, so they're not like normal men.

I feel a lot of this discussion is based on historical views of gender roles and pre-1960s.

Same with race - R78 - It's not 1915 with the one drop rule. People identify as bi-racial or 'part X' today.

For the most part, gays and lesbians have always ignored what was expected in gender roles or societal cues.

What's crazy to me is that today there are the least amount of expectations of what each gender is - women can play and are encouraged to play sports, get medical and law degrees, head up departments and companies, can choose not to have children. Men are allowed to explore their interests in knitting, cooking, encouraged to spend more time co-parenting, can wear more colors of clothing, etc.

In the midst of all of this opening up of gender expectations - here comes the non-binary class, wanting special treatment and acknowledgement for doing a few things that weren't considered that gender's activity FIFTY TO SEVENTY YEARS AGO.

R83 is correct. To build on that, the younger generations have been living in a bubble of magical thinking. “If a man says he’s a woman, everyone must indulge his fantasy, and anyone who does not is a bigot.” And then from there, it’s not a huge stretch to say “I’m tired of being discriminated against and looked down on for being a woman, so if I simply identify my way out of womanhood and tell everyone that I’m not a woman, they will believe me and treat me better.” This kind of thinking makes perfect sense if you look at it from their perspective, where everyone is whatever they say they are, even when the evidence disproves it, and and everyone is pressured into going along with what you declare lest they be canceled.

“ What's crazy to me is that today there are the least amount of expectations of what each gender is - women can play and are encouraged to play sports, get medical and law degrees, head up departments and companies, can choose not to have children. Men are allowed to explore their interests in knitting, cooking, encouraged to spend more time co-parenting, can wear more colors of clothing, etc.”

Sorry to say This description of present day attitudes does not mirror the actual beliefs of many many people and communities. MAGA is specifically about a reversion to this kind of social structure. We have the brosphere and tradwives, Andrew Tate and incels and “masculinity is under attack” all of which paradoxically position the gender binary as both genetically inherent and a job that must be performed.

Those who refuse or are incapable to performing to whatever gender role their genitals imply are labeled deviant or mentally ill. Even here on Datalounge.

It’s fucked up

Hormone use is particularly interesting to me. If you have a skinny effeminate boy and they takes testosterone to become “more” male. That’s not considered wierd, but if they take estrogens to become “less” male they are a freak

Trans activists compare JK Rowling and other TERFs to Matt Walsh and Andrew Tate because they all understand that biological reality is real.

Men are stronger on average than women, which for Walsh/Tate means that women can be controlled physically but for JKR means they need extra protections in law.

A lot of progressive men will be vocal about abortion rights and sex work because they benefit from it. When JK Rowling set up a rape crisis centre in Scotland run by women for women I don't recall any of her male celebrity detractors offering to fund other rape crisis centres, or address why male violence is so prevalent.

[quote]Hormone use is particularly interesting to me. If you have a skinny effeminate boy and they takes testosterone to become “more” male. That’s not considered wierd, but if they take estrogens to become “less” male they are a freak

Who says that?

Most people not fully immersed in gender ideology would just encourage people to be themselves and be comfortable with their bodies. Think Cristina Aguilera's Beautiful and TLC's Unpretty.

Even now a 20 year old woman wanting to get bigger breasts would be reassured there was nothing wrong with her and that she was beautiful as she is and she doesn't need to conform to a particular beauty standard. Whereas a 20 year old woman getting a double mastectomy as "top surgery" would be considered brave and empowering and "life saving".

R81 - spin? You've listed a handful of cultures that basically aren't discriminating against gays/lesbians and acknowledging that there's a small percentage of people that are different. But you don't talk about the male and female roles in those cultures, which are not surprisingly very similar to most cultures. Not sure what eureka or Ah-ha moment you're having here.

Studies have been done with small children and toys - very young girls and boys go after typical gender toys - Dolls for girls and Trucks/cars for boys. And no I don't believe that infants are so awash with social cues and expectations that would force them to choose these toys.

We know that the male and female brain ARE different in how things are processed and perceived. None of this means certain activities or interests should be off limits to either gender - and really, for the most part, they aren't today.

A woman who likes football is not non-binary. A man who likes to bake pies is not non-binary.

People have always presented and lived in different ways as the two genders. The problem I have with non-binary is that they want to act like it's new - like somehow we've evolved in one generation into a different class of beings.

No - they're just calling something that was and still is common something different to feel special and unique. That's all this is.

And let me add - a lot of the gender divisions historically were due to requiring division of labor. It was all manual labor - it took a lot of male manual labor to do physical jobs - and it took a lot of manual labor for women to keep up a home.

We don't appreciate how much time it took for laundry, cooking, cleaning even 50-60 years ago.

The development of machines and labor-saving devices removed a lot of obstacles for gender parity.

It’s the term “nonbinary” that throws me for some reason.

I’m the same with bi-monthly. Is it twice a month or every other month? I always need to look it up.

Thanks to those who offered additional explanations, which helps. I’ll picture the paper wristbands next time.

Hanky’s were such a great idea. Straight forward easy to understand no confusion no need to hear some cunt drone on about their inner them. And a hanky deals with the only fucking thing that should be important..

unless of course you work for census.

R89

Please correct me if you’re wrong but I hear you arguing that the non-binary category is unnecessary and flies in the face of biology and is a relatively new development. I gave examples of various cultures around the world that have equivilant “non -binary categories, to show that it’s not an unheard of thing and to demonstrate that cultures can function this way. This isn’t “non discrimination” this is a culture that has a place for non gender conforming people. A word for them, a place for them in their spiritual concept of the universe.

You refer to studies that show young children preferring gender specific toys, but it’s also a well known phenomena that some boys like to play with dolls. Isn’t this biology too? Most people are right handed but we no longer force left handed people to act against their nature when writing. Why? Because it isn’t that important!

You keep bitchign and moaning about the young generation doing these things to feel special and unique, as if every person born into our country emerges into a warmly accepting environment where boys can play with dolls and girls can be mechanics but that is absolutely not the case!

There are so so so many regions of this world where gayness, or any suggestion of non gender normative impulses are met with socially punitive measures, bullying and the threat of violence. Kids are still kicked out of their homes for being gay or wearing the clothes for the other sex.

These identities and boundaries and vocabularies that younger generations and communities are establishing for themselves might not relate to you in a world of relative comfort as the post menopausal middle class urban gay men most of us her are, but they are vitally important to others.

Again. Why does it bother you so much how people you are never going to see naked are finding strength in defining their own relationship to gender, especially when there are so many other awful truly toxic and violent people and communities you could be focusing on instead?

There is a (female) trans man who works in my local supermarket - early 20s "he" is so obviously female, very short and really quite feminine with twinkly eyes and wears polo shirts that show off the T induced hairy chest and a bandana which may be due to hair loss? Anyway, "his" Grindr profile says he is a top.

R94 If he is living a full and fulfilling life, his way, why should you care? Even if he isn’t, why should you care. How are his choices impacting your quality of life in any way.

Actually it sounds like he’s doing you a favor because you’re clearly the kind of person who needs to punch down to feel better about themselves

R95, a female attracted to males is on hook up app for gay men (males attracted to males) and is advertising themselves as a top (a male who likes to put his penis into another man's poopchute).

You think observing the absurdity of that is punching down?

The thing you fail to understand, r96, is that there’s a legitimate dating pool out there of gay guys who are into that.

Im not sure that you realize this but A lot of younger gay guys are open to having sex with trans guys. There are plenty of f2m porn actors and Onlyfans boys and most of the Onlyfans guys know have shot at least one scene with a trans man because there’s a big market for it.

Again it’s not what your looking for but you have to realize that your tastes preferences and idea of normal are yours. Mind your business get yours and let the kid at Trader Joe’s get theirs too. Theres more than enough dick and pussy and whatever else to go around.

R97 - And I think YOU fail to understand that misrepresenting critical pieces about yourself on a dating app is fraud and pisses people off.

If the profile says clearly FTM trans - then fine. But I doubt that it does. And there is no way on God's green earth can a FTM be a top without a prosthetic - which again is not being honest.

You want to bend over backwards for all non-binary and trans people but if they're not being honest, bad will will result of it.

When you are on a gay man's app - you expect two things - gay and a man. Stop acting like this is an unreasonable expectation or discriminatory.

R93 - "There are so so so many regions of this world where gayness, or any suggestion of non gender normative impulses are met with socially punitive measures, bullying and the threat of violence. Kids are still kicked out of their homes for being gay or wearing the clothes for the other sex."

Yes - and US menopausal gay men and lesbians opened up that world and made it possible for younger generations through blood, sweat and tears. Not that you would ever acknowledge that.

The problem is 1) they ARE gender conforming for the most part - until they want to play the non-binary game and say they aren't. And the things they say are non-binary are just things we've seen women and men do regularly for hundreds or thousands of years - just not typical for that gender.

2) It matters because there is no definition for it and because they want to force people to call them preferred pronouns of plural and keep people dancing on eggshells if you get it fucking wrong.

3) It matters because this specialness is not actually unique or new at all - and it makes liberals and the left look batshit crazy for kowtowing to the few Zennials who demand this. It really is putting the onus on the rest of society to do something special for them - which is to call them different pronouns than everyone else. And then claim discrimination or abuse if you don't get it right.

Non-binary does not give people power and strength - they aren't non-binary. They ARE one gender who does a few things in a not so typical manner - but they want it acknowledged with separate vocabulary and language.

You're in your bubble where all of this is accepted without question - but the majority of liberals are sick and tired of this.

Why don't YOU stand up for something meaningful instead of throwing all your weight around fingersnapping and YASSS queening to slightly different people with self-esteem issues who aren't actually creative, unique or special in any way.

Protest for healthcare for all, for voting rights, for student loan debt, for ANYTHING that affects working and middle class people to make their lives better.

But no - instead you think you're so much more evolved and more aware because you YASS QUEEN some fat Pat-looking character with blue hair and a lip piercing.

' but it's no one's job to make people miserable and abuse them and try to take their rights away. Live and let live.'

But what about when bio women's lives are made miserable? But then gay men don't give a damn about women. Because we don't have bio female relatives or friends that we care about.

Life for you is very simple. Lucky you.

And it's hilarious people think these questions are spam and not important to gays and lesbians. Continue being very stupid.

[quote]A lot of younger gay guys are open to having sex with trans guys.

This is not happening.

R101 Here’s what I think is probably happening. A lot of younger gay guys are probably *saying* that they’re open to having sex with trans guys for the purpose of virtue signaling. I doubt it’s really true. Gay men are men who like men.

[quote] Why does it bother you so much how people you are never going to see naked are finding strength in defining their own relationship to gender

It’s not bothering anyone. It’s obvious that it’s all about appearance. Whatever floats your boat.

Young gay men are saying IN PUBLIC that they'd have have sex with a trans man with a vagina. Young gay men are saying IN PRIVATE hell no.

[quote]I am completely unable to wrap my head around how this is difficult in 2025. I think I first read about it in 2009. It wasn't hard to grasp.

It's next to impossible to grasp.

R102 you say a lot of younger gay men do it but it’s not the sex these young gay men like it’s something to do with virtue signaling and you have deemed them not really true gay men,

By 2082 will there be any relky true gay men left? And will you still be around to be the Judge?

With genz the trans out number gay men genz already,

r100, I have 3 sisters, 5 female cousins, numerous close female friends and work in a profession which is heavily dominated by women. Guess what I HAVE NEVER HEARD FROM ANY ONE OF THESE NUMEROUS WOMEN? That their lives are being made miserable by trans people. I don't know how you have convinced yourself that this is an issue of primary importance to women. SOME women, mostly those involved in certain sports, have some concerns about trans opponents, if they are bigger and stronger. SOME women (a small number) have concerns about bathrooms, because they have heard on right-wing media sources that men with beards and penises are wearing skirts and invading women's bathrooms and locker rooms. That's it.

R107

I’d say Americans not some woman in some sports and only if the man is bigger, most Americans based in surveys are absolutely against MtF trans plying on girls or woman’s teams. The nation feels this way,

There are co ed sports set up to be co ed sports, enjoy away.

Anyone pushing the trans in sports issue for the dems to support has to be RNC or Trump staff.

R101 if you cared to donate slightest amount of research before making these claims you’d see that these guys are absolutely happening. Check their socials. Note the follower count.

the thing is, these people don’t need you to get your head around them or understand them. They already have full lives and full dance cards. The younger generation of gays sees them as full members of the community and the days when they would not be welcome in a gay men’s bar are as retrograde as condoms in porn.

What resistance they have within the community is coming from its stuffiest most boring corners (cough cough) and they probably don’t care much about your acceptance or tolerance at all ,regardless of whether you’re offering it

Datalounge is not the gate and you guys are not the gatekeepers. The trans dolls and boys are already at the party having more fun than most of you and plenty of people are happily to sit next to them and treat them as equals.

Wrap your head around it or don’t, at least take some comfort that these people most likely will never be interested in bothering with you.

non binary means I don't fit stereotypes even though no one does. No man is 100% masculine and no woman is 100% feminine and even sexist people understand that.

R107

Gallup 69% of Americans are against MtF trans on girls or women’s teams

NBC survey 75% of Americans against.

Which means that pretty much the same % of Americans against trans in girls sports also are the same % of Americans that support gay marriage.

What a country.

Only in USA would all the big special questions be decided based on how sports would be impacted

Hardly it was just one of many losing positions the Dems got behind or run over by. There were a shit load of reasons the gop had a shutout 3-0 win while winning all 7 battleground states.

What an asskicking the Dems got

R112

R109 Most of the trans dolls are selling sex in back alleys and will be dead soon.

r107 Well most women probably don't run into trans women/men pretending to be women since they make up less than 1% of the population. But the vast majority of women don't want a biological male regardless of "identity" and sexual orientation in their shower, locker room, female prison--- it is a non partisan position and it doesn't reflect on or is related to any animosity of gays and lesbians.

[quote]I have 3 sisters, 5 female cousins, numerous close female friends and work in a profession which is heavily dominated by women. Guess what I HAVE NEVER HEARD FROM ANY ONE OF THESE NUMEROUS WOMEN? That their lives are being made miserable by trans people.

Well good for them.

There's a very high profile case in Scotland where a middle class doctor who is married to a woman "transitioned" to being a lesbian and demanded the right to use the women's changing room at the hospital he worked in. Several women objected but were told he had a right to use the women's changing room. One female nurse, a sexual assault survivor, complained and confronted him when he walked in on her undressing. The nurse was suspended from her job.

All these things that don't happen (male rapists in women's prisons, "trans women" attacking women in women's toilets, men pretending to be women to abduct children, a male appointed head of a rape centre and telling raped women they're bigots if they're unhappy to be around him or any other males) have all happened in Scotland where JK Rowling lives.

[quote][R101] if you cared to donate slightest amount of research before making these claims you’d see that these guys are absolutely happening. Check their socials. Note the follower count

are you referring to PROSTITUTES having sex with female trans men? Are you referring to PROSTITUTES fucking trans men in their vaginas so they can make money from it?

R107 - have you ASKED them? Just because they don't bring it up around another man (particularly gay man) doesn't mean they don't have issues with it.

A lot of bio women have been cowed into not saying anything for fear of being called a bigot or unreasonable.

Personally, EVERY woman I know has expressed concern - after hemming and hawing about it at first to test the waters and to see if it was safe to talk about it.

And why is that? Because a huge majority of people want trans people to live their lives and don't want them to feel discrimination - but at the same time, sensible dialogue about major obvious concerns are dismissed or not allowed lest you be branded a bigot or transphobe.

But this thread isn't about trans - it's about non-binary. Jonathan Van Ness says he's non-binary - but we all know what he is. A gay man who likes the attention of wearing a dress or putting on makeup.

Cara DeLevigne and Janelle Monae call themselves non-binary - alright, so they sometimes sleep with women. We call that bisexual or lesbian. Visually there is nothing non-binary about either of them.

Being an effiminate man or a masculine woman does not make you 'neither gender'. You are just an effeminate man or a more masculine woman. Nothing wrong with that.

I have to wonder how many women's rights activists and lesbians from the 60s and 70s would like to be called non-binary for doing 'non-traditional women things' like going to college, working full-time, not wearing a bra, not wearing makeup and heels, opting out of having kids. Does that not make them women still?

R118 Most bio women in the US have never seen a trans . And if some men started asking them about the trans or what they thought the trans hemming and hawing might be a natural reaction,

. People , average normal people, are concerned about the men in woman’s sports and kids if asked. But most are never thinking about the trans in any way unless asked,

R119 - I'm not sure what your argument is. I've never met a single person in the Trump administration, but I know I don't like what they're doing and how it impacts me.

And yes - most people are just living their lives, working and trying to get by. It's always been that way. But that doesn't mean that people are unaware of trans politics or that people are accepting of it.

I suspect the Big Gay Bear is all over this thread.

R120 most Americans, inc women, never think about trans in my way unless it’s a sports or kids issue. Just like they don’t spend their time thinking about gay marriage.

Most unlike the DL just don’t care about the issue in any way and don’t spend their time talking about it like we at the DL do.

Of course idiocy like suggesting sex change operations for federal prisoners that may also get a reaction at least at election time.,

The paradox of the trans rights argument is that trans people are a tiny, tiny number of people and yet to accommodate their needs everyone needs to put their pronouns on email signature and we all have to pretend that male and female don't mean male and female any more and that men have never had a sporting advantage over women.

With gay rights the word "marriage" was redefined from being a legal/religious partnership between a man and a woman to being a legal religious partnership between a man and a woman, two men or two women. That was the impact on most people's lives.

r107 The reason women don't talk about the trans issue to you is because you are a man and gay so they might fear backlash. A lot of gay men inexplicably support the trans movement regardless of it being ironically homophobic. People who don't support the trans movement are told they are homophobic, so I could see straight women holding back in talking about their fear and discomfort with trans women in their bathrooms/prisons, etc.

R123 - I think the main thing the gay rights movement did was allowed people to see that we're just like everyone else, but with a different attraction orientation, AND highlighting all the discrimination we face on a daily basis.

We just asked people to understand this and stop being dicks - allow us to see our loved ones in hospital, get married, don't fire us because we're gay, etc. We didn't tell people to do or say anything differently or negate their religion or change language - just to stop stepping on our necks. It didn't cost them a damn thing.

It's not the same with trans politics - as you've stated very well.

R124 - exactly. People presume if you're under the LGBT umbrella, then you're aligned with everything trans as well. And obviously by all of these threads and supporters - there is a component of that which is true.

I'm pretty sure R107 has never asked the women in his life about this - he just presumes that since they don't talk about it to him that they don't care. They do.

You had me up until you started speculating r125.

R124 utter bullshit, what woman do you know that find trannies in their locker rooms normally ? I know a lot of straight women many go to the gym 5-6 days a week. And they use public rest rooms. None of them are seeing chicks with dicks,

Now men should not be playing on women’s sports uninvited and kids need to be protected but gay men going on and on about how concerned they are for the straight women who are so afraid of trannies they can’t speak up :-)

Total and complete bullshit.

Many gay men though are concerned about the trans issue because they think it reflects badly on them.

R126 - well R107 could come back and state if he had actually spoken or asked them about it. Instead he lists all the women in his life as anecdotal proof that women don't care.

If he had, he would have written it.

R127 - it does reflect badly on the community when logic and reason is thrown out the window and gays and lesbians get thrown in with their demands. It's the reason why support for LGBT issues has actually gone down for the last few years, reversing acceptance rates for the very first time.

And just because women don't find trans in their locker rooms on a daily basis doesn't mean it's not an issue for them. You don't have to be confronted with or even experience something in order to be against it. Don't be stupid.

The majority of women haven't been raped - but they're against it. I haven't been a victim of unclean water, but I want clean water. I've never been disenfranchised of my vote, but I believe in voter suppression and every one's right to vote.

[quote] If he had, he would have written it.

You have me at a disadvantage as I don't know him as well as you do.

Has there been a documented rise of sexual assaults in the increasing number of public establishments that have replaced single gender bathrooms with gender nuetral bathroom stalls?

[post redacted because independent.co.uk thinks that links to their ridiculous rag are a bad thing. Somebody might want to tell them how the internet works. Or not. We don't really care. They do suck though. Our advice is that you should not click on the link and whatever you do, don't read their truly terrible articles.]

From the article above

The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

The data, obtained through a Freedom of Information request by the Sunday Times, suggests that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

R132 - R130 does NOT want to SEE THAT!

R130 believes because there are a handful of small communities with a 3rd gender in their culture that it proves non-binary exists, not because their society does not accept or integrate gay or lesbians.

Cannibalism is also found in many cultures/societies throughout history. I guess that means we should all be cannibals as well because they accepted it.

r130 Even if there isn't, women and men have a right to privacy from the opposite sex. Even if men behave in unisex spaces, women have a right to not want to men in their intimate spaces-- and vice versa.

R130 you are really comparing trans people to cannibals? Are you insane? You really actually need to spend time in the company of an actual trans person.

Joe Biden invited the trannies to the White House, where one went topless , and before that Joes uncle was eaten by cannibals..

I live in a legal state but even I can see the connection,

It does get confusing. I think it's rooted in stereotypes. People wanting to get away from that. Personally I think they're too extra for me to deal with. I don't need another reason to accidentally offend someone.

Sometimes it used to seem like having the upper hand in correcting people was what it was really about. Fatiguing.

R135 - I'm using a cultural norm example. Just happens to be cannibals.

Some cultures remove female clitorises. Some cultures extend their necks through bands.

Just saying because you can pinpoint a few cultures that have designated a 3rd gender, it doesn't mean that it's normal. Or that the reason the 3rd gender was created in the first place isn't due to other factors, like homophobia.

R130 won't believe anything until there are widespread harm among women - a few rapes, ahh - such a small percentage, who cares about women's feelings about safety? A few women get robbed of gold medals and awards because of a man - who cares? It's just a few.

The problem is that just a few means it could happen. Full stop. R130 has no idea the violence and fear women have to deal with - rightfully so. Even if they don't personally experience it, they know of other women who have and they know women are murdered just casually for sport or for other reasons. Men usually get murdered because of illegal activities, gangs, and fights gone wrong.

But R130 doesn't care a lick about anything a bio woman has to say on the matter.

And here is Attitude magazine, originally a magazine for gay men, explaining why gay men are the enemy of trans women.

[quote]Gay men are a red flag. It’s devastating. But let’s not get it twisted — there are wonderful gay men who do understand our struggles. They recognise the shared challenges of marginalisation, the importance of solidarity. But there are others who cling to traditional, rigid views of gender and sexuality.

More plastic on display than a Lego shop.

When you picture a trans mtf, what do you picture?

Kardashian or Church lady?

R138 is a Saint who has dedicated his gay life to protecting straight women. This could be a mini series.

Bea Arthur

R111 Out of over 500,000 student-athletes attending NCAA schools, fewer than 10 are transgender. FEWER THAN 10.

Jesus--I don't know if you cows understand how much you sound like Nancy Mace when you talk about this shit.

We used to have this crazy thing called “individuals behaving individually.” In fact, we still do. And then we have these tragically underdeveloped adults who expect to be coddled and indulged by everyone they meet. When someone declares that they are “non-binary,” annoying as it is, it is a really useful shorthand for “steer clear as much as possible, at least until I decide to grow up.”

R132 9 times out of 10 when there's a thread about a woman credibly alleging rape against a straight man, the near-entirety of DL decides instantaneously that she is a lying cunt. Yet somehow when it comes fraus "not feeling safe" around trans women, the DL suddenly turns into RAINN.

Just do your best, OP, that's all you can do. There's a lot of new concepts to explore. This is 2025 and we are learning so much, we just have plow through those still remaining who eschew education.

Be patient. You can do it!

I think the best thing you can do to improve your well-being, OP is just didn't think what someone else does with their body, unless it will impact you, of course.

That it. No need to waste your time with what others identify as. Take care of you!

When people started calling themselves nonbinary and trans their movement started to jump the shark. Aren’t most people “nonbinary” in some way as almost no one completely fits into the masculine/feminine stereotype/category.

Whether it’s 10 or 10000 men shouldn’t be in women’s sports.

R148 Huh? So you mean the trans movement only had credibility before anyone actually started identifying as trans? That's like saying the gay movement jumped the shark when gay men started coming out of the closet.

R146 Ah yes, 'new concepts of 2025.' Forgive me if I don't leap for joy every time the human race reinvents the wheel, sometimes square. Let us recall that Nazism, communism, and fascism were once hailed as bold new visions too, grand, modern, enlightened. Until, of course, they turned into parades of boots, book burnings, and mass graves. So no, not everything new is worthy of applause. Some things are just old evils in new packaging with better PR.

I'm not saying that trans was mainstream but the concept of someone being born in the wrong body and trying to live their life as authentically as possible was featured regularly in movies and tv shows.

Yes some of it was a joke "She's a man LOL" but Terence Stamp in Priscilla and Hillary Swank in Boys Don't Cry were acknowledged for their excellence.

Transamerica, Albert Nobbs, Dallas Buyer's Club, The Danish Girl, films that were nominated for or won Oscars.

People got it, but then there was the backlash. Eddie Redmayne apologised for playing someone who was a man and then became a woman, but it was okay for him to play an able bodied man who became a disabled man?

No R149 how can someone identify as nonbinary and trans. They are in direct conflict with each other and it’s attention whoring at its worst. The fact that these people are taken seriously is indicative of their movement jumping the shark.

It's funny how fighting against the bigots turned into fighting against everyone because they might be like THEM.

R152 I don't think people are identifying as non-binary or trans at the same time. It seems to be either one or the other. Or non-binary ID is the gateway to trans ID.

I mean, the existence of bisexuality doesn't contradict the existence of homosexuality or heterosexuality.

R143 - It doesn't matter if it's one. Lia Thomas robbed women of NCAA titles in swimming. There may be only 10 now but what about the future? Besides that. you seem to have a threshold of tolerance for women in terms of being robbed from their rightful awards, or that rape/sexual assault isn't bad to the victims because it's in such small numbers.

Do you hear yourself?

And R138 - no, but I listen to women's concerns and POVs as opposed to completely ignoring them or thinking they're crazy and collectively wrong.

I support the OP's question. I too am confused, and wish to understand more about it.

I dislike how everyone is projecting anti-trans sentiment onto the OP. This is a truly complicated topic, as anyone can see from the many posts. There are many spectra to track, and personal experiences are infinite and subjective to the person.

I'm nice to everyone, but I too am just curious about how others live, and if there are truly shared understandings between all NBs.

R27, the same nonsense as Pronouns. How can anyone be believe this bull shit? I call a person by their name, don't say "Hello Her." Their man/woman confusion as nothing to do with us. Don't play into this con job by people whose lives are an emotional mess. You'll just encourage them.

I will never be able to understand the concept of "trans" because I literally cannot comprehend what people mean when they say things like "I know I am a woman trapped in the body of man," or vice-versa, and I can't imagine anything anyone might say that could explain it to me in a way that makes sense. That said, of course I don't think people who identify as trans should be discriminated against. But THAT said, I would react very badly if, for example, a trans person ever had the nerve to say to a man who identifies as gay or a woman who identifies as lesbian, "Maybe you're just trapped in the body of the wrong sex." And the thought of giving puberty blockers to pre-pubescent children because they or their parents think they might be "trans" makes my blood boil.

As for "nonbinary," I can't say if I understand that concept because it seems to me many people mean very different things when they use that word, even more so than "trans" people.

[Quote]the existence of bisexuality doesn't contradict the existence of homosexuality or heterosexuality.

Or maybe more apt--the existence of asexuality doesn't invalidate homosexuality or heterosexuality or any other kind of sexuality. For the same reason, why should non-binary (which I tend to sometimes think "agenderist" might be a better word for) invalidate binary genderism? They're just two different ways of experiencing gender. They CAN both be right.

The comparison upthread about the seemingly endless cold war between poly and mono type people is a solid one for this reason. It's extremely human to feel like it is imperative that we define what is the "natural" or "right" sort of programming--which means in order for ours to be right, theirs has to be wrong. You can't have two different kinds of right. This is what has informed the religious heteronormative agenda for ages when they say the only natural love is between a man and a woman and anything outside of that is necessarily paraphilia. It's also what informs us here on the DL when we say that heterosexuality is sick. It's also what informs non-binary types when they say that gender is a construct and anyone claiming otherwise is brainwashed. It's also what informs poly types when they say that monogamy is a social construct and anyone claiming otherwise is brainwashed. And on and on.

We are ALL guilty of in-grouping and out-grouping because we are a deeply tribal species that is unfortunately also cursed with existential dread and apollonian compulsions. We want order, we want labels, we want clear right and wrong, clear delineation between "natural" and "unnatural". We want to understand what inside of us is intrinsic and what is societally influenced. These internal conflicts are never not going to exist. But "progress" is questioning these very natural impulses and striving to release them (or at least give them less power) even when they are beyond our immediate understanding, because embracing human diversity is the only way we can continue to co-exist in an increasingly (and often uncomfortably) diverse society.

The thing is a man can say he's trans and be put on hormones, still keep his dick, and swim in a pool and beat women.

That's unfair.

R160 Lots of men with dicks beat women. They’re called Muslims.

R160 Oh, for fuck's sake--this thread is about the concept of "non-binary"--not about trans women in pools. Can we please not force EVERY thread about gender to devolve into this topic? It's so fucking boring. I've never once seen a 32-part "women in swimming" thread on the DL. Let's stop pretending that this is something we really give a shit about.

And in any case, the thread isn't about trans women at all--it's about people who identify as non-binary.

I totally get it either. I just try to be nice and not mistreat anybody. My nephew talks about that. He's a gay man and I always knew he was gay. He caught some shit from his own mom who has been my best friend since we were 9 years old. She is totally involved in church and tries to understand him, but pisses me off. He's went through a lot. I just feel like fuck it, as long as he's happy. But, I think he doesn't totally understand the non-binary thing. Just being happy is most important.

Coming up for a decade of this madness. "I'm widening the bandwidth of how to be a woman"

A man with a beard, a penis and a girlfriend becomes a lesbian with a beard, a penis and a girlfriend, because he wears make up and a dress.

Non-binary is regressive - it puts the two genders in a box and says any actions or expressions that don't align exactly with X gender means you're somehow not of that gender.

The changing of traditional men's and women's roles the past 50 years and allowing more parity and equity sought to change all of that.

But no - now there has to be a name for it - and to use pronouns that don't align with your bio gender because - well, sometimes I don't act (in their minds) a specific gender.

It's completely made-up, purposefully confusing and performative. And because liberals don't want to make people feel bad, it's been thrust on us as something new we have to acknowledge so people feel 'safe'.

Instead, it makes the left look completely batshit crazy and susceptible to any fad or anything people say is true. It's damaging to Dem politics and liberals in general.

Every gay man or lesbian has inherently done something their sex/gender is 'not supposed to do' just by being in our relationships or having sex.

Does that make all gays and lesbians non-binary? Does that action of having sex mean gay men are not actual men and lesbians are not actual women - but some 3rd thing?

THAT is what this all distills down to. It's all a lie and an internet fever dream for some hormonal, maladjusted teens grappling with their identities - and it took off and became a 'thing'.

A 58 year old British actress recently "came out" as non binary.

"My father would say things like, 'Oh you haven't dressed up today,' or 'you haven't washed your hair,' or 'your hair looks limp, you can't go out like that.' I'd say: 'why not?' "He'd make comments along the way – I walk like a boy. Lots of people tell me I walk like a boy and I do. I just don't know quite where it all comes from, it's just who I am and I'm happy in that now."

How does a boy walk, exactly? Jesus fucking Christ.

None of these podcast hosts actually put that question back to them. "Do you not think it's possible for a woman to have those mannerisms or those hobbies? Do you not think it's regressing back to the idea of fixed gender roles?"

[quote]It's also what informs us here on the DL when we say that heterosexuality is sick

I doubt anyone here has ever said that, and if they did, they're obviously either joking or mentally ill.

That said, R159, I think what you posted is very smart and perceptive, so thank you.

R165, R166, and R167 are a trio of responses that explain very clearly and succinctly why I will never understand or agree with the concept of "trans." I guess "non-binary" is more complicated, and as I wrote before, I can't really say if I disagree with that concept, or how strongly, because apparently it means very different things to different people.

R169 - "it means very different things to different people" - and therein lies the issue. It's made-up and ever-changing with no clear definition. Tell me what else in our lexicon is so vague and inscrutable that we put up with?

R168 - I disagree with your take on R159. It's that kind of relativism psycho-babble about everything that allows for every single individual opinion to be validated. Some things are just not true. And people 'identifying' as something other than what they are is also a real problem that we've just allowed due this absurd use of relativism and whataboutism type of thinking. It's not cerebral, it's using good people's sympathy against them and trying to avoid offending anyone.

Non-binary is an internet fabrication among teens and twenty-somethings who don't know who they are yet. You are your gender no matter your behavior. You are not some 3rd being living between two genders because you're a woman who likes to play football or a man who likes interior design or flowers. It's absurd.

[quote]I am completely unable to wrap my head around the whole nonbinary thing

Really. With all that hollow space to work with?

r143 Those 10 or so spots were still stolen from women. Things that belong to women should only go to women. Same in reverse. If something is meant for men it shouldn't go to mentally ill women. Do you want trans men in gay bathhouses??

R172 Well, Nancy, since you asked--I can think of about 100,000 more pressing issues right now in America and the world at large. I do not go to bathhouses. I am not a woman. I am not a female athlete. I don't give a shit about sports--particulalry college sports. And if I did, I imagine it would have to take more than 10 out of 500,000 to be considered a "problem" to me.

R170, I don't think R159 wrote anything like that, and I'm very surprised that you so completely misunderstood what they wrote.

r173 Why does something have to be the most urgent issue for it to be an issue?? And there have already been women who have been raped in female prisons by trans women inmates. Why would women dismiss that because we have other more "important" issues??

I don't understand "nonbinary." I don't understand "they/them.

It's just foreign to me, and I'm gay. "

I get irritated when liberals say things like “it’s none of your business, you don’t have to understand it, just stay out of it and let people live their lives.” Well, it does matter because this kind of silliness does have an effect on election outcomes.

R175 You are of course welcome to embrace any pet moral panic of your choosing. But for me, personally, my dance card is pretty well full at present, what with our country rapidly descending into a fascistic dictatorship with no clear end in sight while simultaneously hurdling toward an economic depression, the likes of which very few living Americans have ever experienced.

But sure--Lia Thomas. That there's the threat I should REALLY be investing my energy in.

r178 I think women getting raped in prisons is a very urgent issue. The idea women's or any persons civil rights are no big deal because of what Trump/republicans are doing in general is ridiculous.

[quote][R146] Ah yes, 'new concepts of 2025.' Forgive me if I don't leap for joy every time the human race reinvents the wheel, sometimes square. Let us recall that Nazism, communism, and fascism were once hailed as bold new visions too, grand, modern, enlightened. Until, of course, they turned into parades of boots, book burnings, and mass graves. So no, not everything new is worthy of applause. Some things are just old evils in new packaging with better PR.

No one said anything new is worthy of applause. You're the one on a tangent. Lol. You may have just heard of the word trans recently but it's as old as humans. Lol trillions of babies since the dawn of time and now you think they just popped up. Hilarious.

No wonder you are confused and angry.

R179 How many times do you have to be reminded that this is not a thread about trans women in sports and female prisons? It is a thread about people identifying as non-binary. Feel free to set up your soapbox at any of the other 10 tranny-panic threads posted a week here.

R180 I don’t think people were taking their 5 year olds to get pumped full of puberty blockers in 10,000 BC.

r125 and r128. This is r107. I work for a living so I haven't been here to respond. I have indeed spoken to at least 4 women among the ones I listed specifically about trans issues. And they have responded as I said above. They are not scared, they are not up in arms, they don't feel demeaned or diminished. They recognized that trans people are a tiny proportion of the population and that public opinion has been manipulated by politicians and political parties looking for scapegoats. Small minority groups are always convenient scapegoats. Interestingly, my sister has befriended a trans person whom she knew quite well in high school before his transition. As with most gay people, the women I know are curious about trans people, and can't understand what has prompted them to make this drastic change, but they are NOT scared of them. The person my sister has befriended has been contemplating this for a long time. He apparently started cross-dressing in high school. He does have a child. But his marriage ended decades ago and I think he transitioned more formally about 10 years ago. At the moment he is utterly terrified by the persecution of trans people. He recognizes that he is in physical danger every time he sets foot out of his house, and when he goes out, he opts for a very androgynous look - sort of like a thinner androgynous Pat from SNL. Hateful language has consequences and some of the language in these threads is very threatening indeed.

R178 It is a major issue because it’s imposing ideology on a government and legal level which is ironic because the same people who want non-binary inclusion everywhere don’t believe Christianity should be everywhere.

If this was the 80s or 90s, imagine cross dressers saying retail stories that don’t carry size 14 women’s shoots is discriminatory and they hold protests for schools to include them in sex education classes.

People can do and be whatever they want. But to demand I subscribe to your ideology or imposing ideology into my everyday life, it’s an issue.

r181 I have been responding to a series of post responding to why the trans issue is a problem regardless of it not being the most important issue. What are you talking about??

[quote]But to demand I subscribe to your ideology or imposing ideology into my everyday life, it’s an issue.

Imposing for me but not for thee? Is that what were doing here?

I request some of the anti trans voices share anecdotes about their experiences relating to trans people in day to day life, if they have any, and no, if the trans person is behind a counter ringing them up for soemthing it doesn’t count.

Absolutely no anti trans voice here in any way. Why would I possibly care how people live or dress, unless I m hiring, live your life as you want. It’s mostly an election issue in the US.

Only the truly ignorant today would suggest that the trans issue did not hurt Harris Waltz. Because if anyone says it did not hurt in any way during this very close election you live in a bubble and have not been paying attention or you are just to stupid even for DL

Of course it hurt. And the election was close. And Trump is president. Do the math yourself.

[quote]I request some of the anti trans voices share anecdotes about their experiences relating to trans people in day to day life,

I'll share one. The very fist trans person I knew personally "transitioned" from male to female -- and then back. Have a look at this article about her/him/them, and just try to keep up with the pronouns.

I'm sure some people will read this story as one of self-loathing and mental/emotional illness, and I'm with them.

God is apparently both man and woman

R189 is that article was supposed to convince me that the subject was some kind of horrible fucked up person it didn’t. He’s definitely been through hell and back but he’s over 20 years sober and happy. He also came up in a very wild volatile social scene of nyc art and nightlife in the 80s. Many people we herald as geniuses had big troubles in this scene, and didn’t survive.

This is what happens when parents overindulge their kids. When I was a child, if I had told my mother that “I feel like a girl today and I wanna wear a dress to school” she would’ve told me no and told me that I can’t do that. The scary thing is that high schools these days, which are supposed to prepare kids for the world, are also overindulging these kids and letting boys show up to school and prom and dresses, and so on. This is not how the real world works and these little shits are going to be in for a rude awakening. If you’re a man working in a professional job, you can’t show up to work in a dress and high heels and say “this is how I choose to express myself, especially if you’re working with clients.

[quote] I think women getting raped in prisons is a very urgent issue.

So start a thread about the abuse women in prisons face from prison guards and staff R179, which is umpteen times more than any woman in a prison has faced from a trans inmate. Surely if it was so urgent, you’d have started a thread in the past about it, perhaps you could point it out to us.

I won’t hold my breath.

I was molested by a woman when a child, I was abused by a men in my teens,

Twats such as R175 are "just" asking that all their "issues" be counted as "issues."

More men are raped in prison by men than women by trans-identifying prisoners. Does that make it a bigger "issue" to you?

Didn't think so.

[quote]More men are raped in prison by men than women by trans-identifying prisoners. Does that make it a bigger "issue" to you?

That's because sexual violence is overwhelming committed by males.

Maybe men can take responsibility for male violence rather than put males in women's prisons. Remember that "trans women" are more likely to be sex offenders than male prisoners in general. Why do you think that is?

R195 I think it’s because they’re more likely to have suffered abuse themselves in their earlier lives, because society others them and puts them in positions where they are more likely to be abused. What's your implication?

Men lead all violence except for women on women violence. Men are almost always the problem no matter what the problem is. But especially in matters related to sex. Things likes Wars , bar fights, STDs, citizen snipers, rapes,

The problem is usually male related

R176, Some people don't understand that "They/Them" is plural. A single person who claims to be are two, needs psychiatric help. We must have pity on Emotional Cripples who wallow and thrive on this behavior.

It's a generational thing--you or I wouldn't understand. We're old hogs of DataLounge.

Well then r197 how can you blame a man for wanting out?

R198 there is an established common use of singular they / them in English prior to it being used by non-binary ppl. If I’m talking to my friend and they say “my friend is coming over later” I can reply “oh what time are they getting here?” This is reserved for a gender non specific singular third party. Are you seriously not aware of this?

Unzip your fly and look between your legs.

There's your binary!

OP, the whole thing is nonsense.

[quote]Rule number 1: ALWAYS GET THE MONEY FIRST!

R189, your fren mek good advise.

[quote]He’s definitely been through hell and back but he’s over 20 years sober and happy.

Some people would say it was hell of his -- or her, or their -- own making. And P.S., what does sobriety have to do with it?

R164 daddy chill