What do you think is the greatest country in the world?

Norway still kills whales. Pass.

Easy answer. Russia.

R1 Whales are delicious. I had a whale steak.

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There's no Shangri-la. I couldn't live in Norway because it's cold, boring, and expensive. Canada seems great on paper, but again...cold and expensive.

France is the best for me personally, but obviously some will hate it because of certain immigrants and perceived danger. But it feels a hell of a lot safer than the US these days.

The Duchy of Grand Fenwick.

Oslo is also less interesting and beautiful than Stockholm, Helsinki or Copenhagen. Since when is Norway known for having great food?

I don’t know why everyone is always ragging on Norway. The culture is boring, the food is lousy, blah blah blah. I guarantee this coming from Americans who think the only two countries in Europe are France and Italy. And if you drive across Lofoten you will encounter many beautiful towns.

No one is ragging on shit, r8. OP is claiming that Norway is the BEST country in the world and is getting some well-deserved pushback. Of course it's a pretty country.

R9 people rag on Norway all the time. I constantly hear “the culture and the food are boring.” And of course everyone goes on to say that Italy is the greatest place ever. I mean honestly, Italian guys look very plain to me. Everyone goes on and on about how hot Italian men are, and some are, but most look very average.

Freedonia.

I haven't been to enough of them to judge. And probably, neither have you.

You can only judge a country if you've actually visited it??? Who said??

USA will be once Trump is out of office or dead.

r10 Didn't know we had people from Norway posting here. Calm down. Norway has a high standard of living but very few people are excited about their culture.

This food IS boring, r10. What the hell are you talking about. Norway is a nicer place than Mississippi but let's not pretend it's a culinary mecca.

Norway is next to Sweden where ABBA and Pippi Longstocking is from.

Most surveys seem to indicate Denmark and Canada are consistently high on this list.

Taking this opportunity to beg everyone to watch Norsemen on Netflix. One of the funniest shows I’ve ever seen.

Italy.

... Don't crush my hopes and dreams, DL.

Just kidding. I know you never would.

The problem with france is the french people. Not trying to be funny, but many fit the stereotypes.

^^^Damn, you ain't kiddin'! I was supposed to spend a week on the French Riviera (1993), and they were so rude to us (me and my-ex-the-cop) that we turned the rental car around and went back to Germany.

The USA no matter how much Trump tries to fuck it up.

England

Australia. I’m from Sydney, but have lived for extended periods in the US and Europe (UK / NL). Australia is beautiful, the lifestyle is great, the economy is strong (and median population is one of the wealthiest in the world), politically stable (federal election today, so we’ll see how that rolls along) and the people have a great attitude to life. Of course, it’s not perfect, it from what I’ve seen of the world, Australians have a solid balance to living.

R25 You know every Australian I’ve ever met has always been a blast to hang out with and doesn’t see race.

Scotland.

r25 mass transit isn't perfect and culturally not that interesting in australia.

I love France, but I would only recommend it as a place to live to people who speak strong conversational French (at minimum) and who are eager to “do things the French way” but have low-to-moderate expectations of deeply integrating.

r29 I have an acquaintance living in France. The french are very very hostile to those who don't speak at a high level of french. Even if you speak well they will be angry if you have an accent. The hostility was shocking. Most americans don't care if you speak with an accent-- as long as you are understood and make an effort to speak english. The french have a weird chip on the shoulder about their language. You should be a B2 level or higher to live there to avoid harassment. For context, she lives in the southern portion of France.

R29 I know; those cunts were difficult. They even be knowing how to speak English and won’t if they smell you are American.

Everyone I know who's lived in Australia (including a few Australians) says that the people are extremely friendly on the surface, but completely unwilling to make friends at any depth. Kind of like the worst stereotypes of LA, but even my LA Australian friends say that no-one is more superficial than an Australian.

R21 seriously, the French are pretty awful. I lived in Nice and when I skipped the border into Italy it was such a breath of lovely Italian air

[quote]USA will be once Trump is out of office or dead.

Not as long as the millions of morons who voted for him are still here.

[quote]Norway is next to Sweden where ABBA and Pippi Longstocking is from.

What am I -- chopped meatballs?

I lived many years in Italy. For me, no other country in Europe can compare to it.

People stating counties should also state where they live or have lived. Cities vs. suburbs vs, rural. Living in New York City is vastly different than even living in Long Island, especially if the latter doesn’t work in the city. Living in Chicago is different than living in San Diego.

Countries* not counties.

The posters claiming it the USA are deluded. It's very definitely NOT the USA. Especially over the past few decades. Maybe, many years ago the claim could have been legitimately made but that was a long, long time ago.

R39 Even a long time ago. Segregation and hangings. So no.

R39 It will be the USA once the democrats retake power and round up and gas all the Trump supporters and we can finally move forward.

I love Italy, too, but everything always feels like such a big needless ordeal. It starts just feeling like a silly place - and the conservative family stuff is too much. When everyone is that close and seemingly dependent on their mothers, it just makes you feel like you’re surrounded by a bunch of no-hoper teenagers all the time.

Everyone seems happy in Denmark but it too cold most of the year

Exactly R40. I was trying to be charitable and not mention any of that stuff.

[bold]NO[/bold] it won't be R41. I don't know if you've noticed but what was left of the USA is being systematically and deliberately smashed up and destroyed to remove all traces of liberalism in government, media, universities, businesses by an authoritarian dictatorship and authoritarian regime which is supported by at least half of the US population and what's going to be left will be similar to Russia, Hungary, Turkey etc. where a specific group of people (in this case white Christian nationalists using Trump as the figurehead) control the country, values, rules and laws to dictate and control what's acceptable and what isn't to all other Americans. Those people are then going to work like hell and use any means necessary to ensure they hold onto that power so they are always in control. And as we all know from history - authoritarian regimes do not willingly cede power.

And as for future elections, as Joseph Stalin famously said: “Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything.” Especially if Starlink becomes involved in future elections.

The US is best a propaganda about how it’s the best on the world. The internet has shown everyone that the rest of the world is often doing much better

Is there someplace relative warm that’s good? Spain?

Latveria

America is number one and always will be. The sheer size, diversity, and beauty is unmatched.

To all those people saying America is terrible because of slavery and segregation, it’s worth noting that every country has done horrible shit at some point in history. Even Germany today has become a strong democracy and has rebuilt good relationships with its neighbors. It will be rough but we will get through this and move forward.

It’s also worth noting that part of the reason we are in this mess is because both parties failed people in middle America and sent the jobs overseas plus squeezed the wealth out of them.

I still say Norway is the best country though.

[quote]I love Italy, too, but everything always feels like such a big needless ordeal.

What specifically "feels like such a big needless ordeal" ?

Of the countries I have been in and spent some time in (i.e.more than a week) Japan strikes me as the greatest, closely followed by Switzerland, and Singapore (horrid climate though) but Australia as R25 says also has a lot going for it.

I have no personal experience of Norway or Denmark so cannot really rate them although I've heard that Denmark is very nice. Norway does also have the advantage of immense oil wealth

I'd have to agree with those saying the USA is not the greatest, although it is somewhat great in some parts of it

Switzerland. Tina Turner retired there for a reason and that bitch had options.

R49 Yeah but country was doing the wild vicious shit America was doing post Industrial Revolution, BESIDE Germany. That shit went on to almost the 70s. All targeted to one specific group which was a sizeable part of the population.

But what^^ country

Someone please chime in about the good and bad of Portugal

Finland checks a lot of boxes, but weather isn't one of them. If you can stand long, cold, dark winters it's a great place to live.

Slovenia, Czech Republic

[quote] Someone please chime in about the good and bad of Portugal

The infrastructure is quite far behind most of western Europe. Old, slow trains, a lot of damp old buildings that aren't renovated. The cuisine is a bit limited...hope you like bacalhau. Lisbon suffers from overtourism and, I would argue, Porto does as well. Locals are resentful of expats driving up housing prices.

The good - very nice beaches, lush islands, a lot of beautiful architecture, excellent pastries, good wine, pleasant climate for the most part (northern Portugal can be extremely wet and gloomy in winter).

R52 You damn right I did!

Denmark. 🇩🇰 American born 2nd gen Dane

Have been to all the Scandi countries, loved Denmark and surprisingly Finland over Sweden or Norway. Norway is really expensive.

2nd: Switzerland - loved, more than France.

Like Norway, or Copenhagen, or Swiss or Australian cities, Vienna often tops lists of best places...to live, to visit, to retire, for quality of life, for expats, for public services, for beauty...

But Vienna for me is interesting only as a place to visit. I could live there, and no doubt be reasonably happy there, but I've no desire to do. There's a very long list of places I would rather live than Vienna. Ultimately it all comes down to how you feel about the place; it can score amazingly yet have no pull personally. Paris is a fantastic city and I visit it often, but visiting is enough. On paper it's great, in reality it is has endless things and qualities to recommend it. But it has no serious pull beyond that, for me. Denmark is curious because and it place where it seems much better to live than to visit.

Lists and rankings either mesh with your perspective or they don't. I find them quite interesting, but I'm part for how they reveal the different ways we individually decide what is important, both in theory and actuality.

If I visit a city and find myself taking every opportunity to look at the sale listings posted in windows of real estate agencies, that's a marker of interest. If I go online and scope out the whole housing situation it's excited an interest.. Beyond picturing myself in some of the houses and apartments, if there's some pull to certain streets and micro neighborhoods or parts of the city, only then does a place start to spark in my mind.

Greatest countries for me: Portugal, Spain, Italy. Good countries for me: France, Greece, Sweden

Places of more mixed opinion where I could be happy: UK, Ireland.

[quote]Japan strikes me as the greatest

I suppose, if you don't mind guys rubbing their dicks up against you in train cars so crowded you can't get away.

Then again, that probably wouldn't bother you too much.

R52: Tina Turner, along with her pal David Bowie, Shania Twain, and numerous others, retired to Switzerland for tax reasons. You know it, I know it. Once you spend some time there, you long to get across the nearest border, to a less sterile, more 'alive' place.

[quote]Everyone goes on and on about how hot Italian men are, and some are, but most look very average.

You'll find that to be the case wherever you might travel. It's called 'average' for a reason.

How can the US be anywhere near great with the huge amount of poverty (half the people can’t even come up with $500 for an emergency), and a healthcare system that depends on how wealthy you are to work. The infrastructure is shit—there isn’t even one high speed train when they are all over China and Europe already. Plus, you now have a fascist as a leader who is robbing you blind, making you all poorer

R65 Because bitch I could go into Walmart right now and buy a gun to blow my cheating wife’s head off and then blame my WeGovy drugs.

Australia's looking pretty good tonight. In today's Federal Election the Conservatives won less than half the seats Labor did, and the conservative leader lost his own seat by a wide margin.

R56 Finland also has the happiest people year after year. It has an amazing educational system with 100% literacy. When teachers are asked what happens if a child fails to learn they stare at you uncomprehendingly. "No one fails. If a child is having trouble we work harder". This includes immigrants who don't speak the language.

My favorite story about the Finnish character was from a visiting writer and his Finnish friend. The two of them were traveling on a remote rural road when the car broke down. The Finnish friend wasn't able to find the problem so they shivered and waited. A car approaches and pulls over. The two Finns nod at each other. The guy who pulled over spends a few minutes under the hood. Closes the hood, nods, drives away. Not a single word was exchanged. The writer says what luck that someone you know comes along! The Finn says, "I've never seen him before in my life".

But it's way too cold and expensive for me.

r41 I am American and like living in this country, but no. The US has too many issues-- high homicide, expensive higher education, police brutality, a weak social safety net etc.

r51 Japan is great because of its low homicide, good infrastructure and mass transit. But culturally they are closed off to immigrants, very unapologetically racist, and very sexist for a developed country.

For those saying the US, what exactly are you thinking? A lot of the country has been left to crumble. Most of ourr major cities all have blight to a degree you don’t see in European or Asian cities. We have a lot of wealth, but it’s mostly in the hands of a very few. We have poor education, health care, and transportation.

I ask this genuinely. The conversation gets super muddy, especially with the weird dichotomy Americans follow to either believe we are the best or the absolute worst.

The US is great for making money. For invention. Having an idea and creating a business. And that's no small thing.

Those are our mythical strengths, r36. But you won’t find a metric that puts the US at the top of all three of those, and probably not any single one alone. So, how does that make the US best?

Twenty years ago I would have said it was a battle between France and South Africa because they stood for something. Today I'd say Namibia and South Korea.

[quote]Those are our mythical strengths

They are not mythical.

Sillicon Valley alone: The perfection of the internet. Social media: Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, the iPhone, the personal computer, Adobe Photoshop, And etc. And etc. and etc. Things that have profoundly changed the way the world lives and works.

Those things could have only happened in the US.

I'm surprised that New Zealand hasn't been mentioned . They tend to do well high on quality of life indicators.

[quote] The sheer size, diversity, and beauty is unmatched.

Russia is larger.

Indonesia is more diverse.

Italy is more beautiful.

The insane gun fetish that exists here permanently precludes it from greatness.

The Netherlands.

Belgium and Switzerland have shown that mutually hostile groups can live together for long periods.

US has 400,000 churches, all of them consecrated to fraud and the grift, so no not the usa or brazil, which is no. 2 in the same category and in both cases corruption is too general, not just in the leaders but in the people.

Fake religion and bad morals define those two countries.

R75, your “And etc. And etc. and etc” are pretty ancient. Hence, “mythical.” And of no one else can match the magic of Twitter, how do you explain TikTok?

Ireland

[quote]your “And etc. And etc. and etc” are pretty ancient. Hence, “mythical.”

You are making no sense.

[quote]And of no one else can match the magic of Twitter, how do you explain TikTok?

No one said that other countries have not made their contribution, none of them can compare to the creativity and possibility that exists in the US. . And you truly do not understand the significance of Twitter. Used by world governments, politicians, leaders, rulers. And as far as social media is concerned TikTok pales in comparison to the reach of Facebook, YouTube, Instagram and WhatsApp,

BTW: have you ever lived outside of the US? I have. For most of my adult life. I'll take living in Italy over the US anyway, but please let's not fool ourselves, the US is great for making money. For invention. Having an idea and creating a business. No other country can compare.

To make money and then get the fuck out: America

For living: Pretty much any northwestern European country.

R63 Bowie lived right up until his death in his penthouse on Houston Street in NYC, and had done so since the early 00s.

The US is great for making money - and for many Americans making money is the most important thing in life, and devoting most of your time to workin is considered normal. The successful also mostly buy into a showy materialism - a suburban Dallas McMansion or an AD worthy townhouse in The Village - the aesthetics and politics may differ, but the underlying values are similar.

If your idea of “quality of life” skews more urban and what used to be called Bohemian then the US can be a pretty unattractive place, and only getting more so as our big cities become bland playgrounds for the super wealthy. Europe looks much more attractive to people like me, and also seems very affordable, but I know that’s because I earn an anverage American middle class salary and never had to support a family. Europeans in general earn less money, have less stuff, but also work much less and do so in often more beautiful environs.

After my mom dies I will seriously look into retiring in Europe - I have 3 friends moving this year - to Italy, France and Spain - but all of them are better off than I am, so I’m unsure if I’ll be able to swing it financially.

[quote]The US is great for making money - and for many Americans making money is the most important thing in life, and devoting most of your time to workin is considered normal. The successful also mostly buy into a showy materialism...

Agreed, if the US has an allure (outside some specific professions) it's being able to make what seem large sums of money and to have flexibility in jumping around jobs. Not insubstantial attractions for some, but it depends on where someone comes from.

I question though that Americans have anything to show for their bigger salaries. Longer working hours. Fewer vacation days and other leave. The expectation to put job above all, to not even take all one's 10 vacation days consecutively. To pay extortionately for health care and then have surprise extra costs every time one uses it. To have a bigger house in square feet and a bigger lawn, but to have high utility bills and maintenance costs, for houses that are built to look big rather than to be strong. To have fewer friends and weaker friendships - but a huge circle of well intentioned acquaintances (fake friends) who blather about "we really have to get together! Soon!" And if course never do and never had any real intention of doing. To live in a place where you have kids to fill the void of not seeing friends and family or having anything if a social life outside of shopping and eating. The US is certainly up there with countries that promise that consumerism is the salve for all problems, but I don't see people happier for. Not in the US, and certainly not if I compare them to most Europeans.

The blunt comparison of salaries suggests everyone in the US is living the high life. The comparison of how Europeans live goes in a different direction, at least for me.

That’s really the gist of a true comparison - which way of living is “better.” As an American who never fit in to the mainstream, a small affordable rental apartment in an interesting, walkable city was all I ever aspired to - and NYC fit the bill growing up there in the 70s / 80s — by the time I was on my own here in the 90s it was still doable but changing fast. Now I don’t know if it’s worth sticking it out for the next 20 or so years I have, or if I’ll be able to continue to afford it anyway - I’m guessing not.

A radical change may be more interesting and rewarding. I’m a loner, and I already own enough books to last the rest of my days - so maybe shipping them and myself to a small apartment in a pretty, walkable city like Turin would be a better way to ride into the sunset.

You could do worse than Turin, R89. I've visited several times now for a week or so and always enjoyed it. And it seems a city that you could appreciate socially or solitarily as you please. Definitely a great choice for walk ability and finding interesting routes. It's neither mainstream nor conformist, and seems to extend a lot of latitude to people. And it's beautiful and civilized and reasonably affordable and connected by trains to everywhere.

R25 - I'm not Australian, but I think Oz is a strong candidate.

Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth always rank incredibly high on the best cities in the world to live. I always wondered why the fuck they rank so high - and then I visited. I get it.

However, as an American, for me personally, it's really isolated - you have to fly everywhere. Having only 2 (arguably 3) major cities, there's not a ton of choice. My perspective is very skewed because there is so much diversity and so many large cities in the US.

And I know the affordability crisis hit Australia - as it has in all English speaking countries - US, Canada, NZ, England, etc.

But for day to day living - Australia is pretty hard to beat. Quality of life there is just so much better for so many things. I was very envious.

Switzerland's Zurich and Geneva also rank high - but they're boring AS FUCK, stuck-up, and rigid. No thanks.

Scotland

R76 - NZ is even more remote than Australia. It tends to be expensive, there's a lot less choice for anything you want to buy.

It rains A LOT - and the 'cities' are small and disappointing. There's a lot of natural beauty but most people don't live out in the beauty spots.

Auckland gets TWICE as much rain as rainy London - and rains half the days of the year. Wellington is so fucking windy - annoyingly so. It's the windiest major city in the entire world - and that's not fun.

It's a very limited country for living due to weather, low amount of people, and lack of options in terms of food, clothing, entertainment, etc.

Loved my time there, but nah.

[quote]That’s really the gist of a true comparison - which way of living is “better.” As an American who never fit in to the mainstream, a small affordable rental apartment in an interesting, walkable city was all I ever aspired to

We have the same values.

And that's why I loved living in my small city in Tuscany.

But others really do want to accumulate money. And nothing wrong with that. I know sooo many Europeans that have moved to the US to do that. On the rural road in the US that I am living on, there is a young Polish couple, there is an Italian couple, a Mexican family... with big beautiful houses and yards and all perfectly happy with their move to the US. There are so many people like them.

R94 - did you live in California? I'm struggling to think what rural roads in the US would have Mexicans, Polish and Italians - in rural areas.

Any US city could have that - on my condo floor alone, we had Japanese, Brazilian, Lithuanian, French, Polish, and Argentian-born neighbors.

A country which has a need for active shooter drills in elementary schools cannot be considered great.

Thanks for the reply, R90. I’m a lifelong, and admittedly biased, New Yorker who never wanted to live anywhere else, and was unhappy the few years I lived in LA. Spent a few days in Turn - first in an outer, more suburban area which was fine, but not ever my cup of tea.

Then we crossed the river for a day in the central city - after walking around for a few hours I started thinking - damn, I could actually live here. I almost never feel that when I’m away from home. Looking at the prices of apartments online made it even more attractive.

We sat for over an hour at a cafe in the big Plaza Vittorio Vento for the price of one Aperol spritz - as much as I love NYC you simply can’t just relax somewhere beautiful for such a small outlay of cash very easily here.

[quote]did you live in California? I'm struggling to think what rural roads in the US would have Mexicans, Polish and Italians - in rural areas.

What??

What year are you writing from? 1958? Come to the wilds of Southern New Jersey for starters.

R93 I live in Auckland New Zealand, and your post is absolutely 100% accurate. And in addition we also have a bit of a crime problem - not as bad as parts of the USA but worse than many of the other countries mentioned here. We have somewhat less gun crime as guns are less pervasive but plenty of theft and assault, and meth is rampant here

r76 New Zealand is culturally bland and too geographically isolated to even be in the top 50 countries. It is a developed country, but that alone doesn't mean anything.

Some little paradise island in the Pacific, away from all the shit.

R88 Damn you got their number

Actually my favorite place are Mediterranean islands. I'd love to have a yacht sailing around, port to port country to country.

There's so many different countries and each have their own character and vibe. To compare them? Why? For the sake of living? No, visit them all. Rotate around, seasonally.

American have the potential to make lots of money but also pay out for all that money for mediocre healthcare, childcare, college, etc.

America thrives on everyone being afraid.

Buy a gun! Buy security cameras! Locks on your door and windows!

R104 - healthcare, childcare, home and car insurance, college and eldercare. Any whoopsie or major medical problem, and bankruptcy - you lose everything. It's the reason for 70% of American bankruptcies.

You're always living on the precipice - unless you've been able to secure several million.

People in California are relentlessly a bout making money, but it really doesn't hold in the rest of America.

R107 You don't get out much.

R107 - uh - absolutely no. People are in California for the weather, the geography, ocean, the people, the lifestyle. They're definitely not relentlessly about money - it's laughable you would even say that.

Everyone wants to make a good living, but to put it on par with DC or NYC is just a complete lie.

There is no such thing. It is a fiction, advanced typically to delude and control.

Not true R109

DC and New York are not ultimately commercial places

The libertarian pc which is wall street is not about making money: it's about standardizing and promoting corruption

I am originally from the east coast and live in the Bay Area now. I can tell you for sure that California is way more relaxed than the east coast, and while professional jobs here do tend to pay more than the east coast people are not generally “obsessed with making money.” People do seem happier though.

[quote]The US is great for making money. For invention. Having an idea and creating a business. And that's no small thing.

It [bold]WAS[/bold] R72. It was. But those days are over.

France.

Have those of you saying the USA just awoken from a coma that started on 6th November?

It's a prevalent theme in any discussion on DL along the lines of "where you you live in the world?", or "where might you move if Trump is elected in Nov 2024?" or even "where might you travel this year?"

There are always a few posters who flare up with star-spangled nonsense about the greatest place on earth, or explain their disinterest it leaving American shores from having been stationed in Germany for 6 months in the 1970d, or that they haven't event seen all of the 50 US states, why should they leave the country? It surprises me, particularly at present, but it's a strong strain of thinking among Americans: a distrust and lack of curiosity of travel.

It's drummed into Americans and sticks with a not insignificant number.

I understand if someone is old or can't travel easily or has inescapable obligations at home, but it's the dismissiveness of the very idea of leaving the US that startles me every time.

It used to amuse me that the US State Department used to issue the gravest sounding warnings against travel to the countries of its friendliest and most developed allies, painting a picture of 3rd world war zones and dark undercurrents of "factions." Now it's the foreign offices of those other countries that warn their citizens about travel to the US.

[quote]It used to amuse me that the US State Department used to issue the gravest sounding warnings against travel to the countries of its friendliest and most developed allies, painting a picture of 3rd world war zones and dark undercurrents of "factions."

Do you think the US is the only country that issues travel warnings ?

The UK travel warnings for Mexico:

No, R119, I'm aware that many nations issue travel advisories for their citizens. My point was not that the US does so, but rather that they issue long lasting alerts for (once) close allies where the threat to American tourists or visitors is infinitesimal. It's the often alarmist language of the advisories that catches my attention.

Read the alert for Germany, for example, which advises exercising increased caution because of terrorism. To read the news reports of terrorism and demonstrations in Germany in recent months, there is little to support this. The US State Department paints such a grave picture of the most peaceful and safe and orderly places that it's almost as though they want Americans to stay home -- and not leran anything of the world.

I'm sure you will have a different impression, but mine is that time and again Americans are discouraged from knowing anything of the world around them, finding it easier to proclaim anything beyond the US a Third World Shithole that is jealous of the American way of life.

R120 Do you get out much?

The current UK travel warning for Germany (www.gov.uk):

"Terrorists are very likely to try to carry out attacks in Germany."

"Attacks could be indiscriminate, including in public places visited by foreign nationals such as:

restaurants, markets, shopping centres, places of worship and religious sites, including synagogues, sporting and cultural events, crowded places and public gatherings."

"German authorities regularly report that they have disrupted planned attacks and made arrests."

Government of Canada:

"Germany travel advice: Exercise a high degree of caution in Germany due to the threat of terrorism." (Last updated: April 22, 2025)

Where would the American brains depart to? An American brain drain?

Anywhere it's nice to live with the most money I guess. Well there's still of if enclaves in America for exactly that. Wish it was more equal for everyone all over the world.

Worldwide basic income. No war, no crime, no cheating, stealing, no killing, no need to do any of that. A peaceful, loving planet, no ugliness, no meanness, no fear, no hate, just everyone chill and cool.

Let's evolve already.

R118/R120 just wants to make sweeping assumptions about Americans and look down on them for not traveling as often as people who live in other places with 5 different countries available within a few hours of car or train travel.

He's a condescending troll.

r124 On twitter I got into a fight with a italian over that. I told her most europeans --- like 90% only travel within europe and that I don't consider that to be real traveling. Both due to the lack of real effort in terms of distance, cost, but also cultural difference. And she went off on me about how diverse europe is. Europe is not a monolith but the average european is not gonna have much cultural shock especially within western europe.

I am only impressed when they visit africa, middle east, asia, etc. Areas where they are out of their comfort zone.

R125 - yes, Europeans are the worst. The amount of countries and different cultures in such a small area is unique in the world. They just happen to live in a place where visiting other countries is extremely easy and doesn't take much money or effort. But you don't have to be smug about it - and a lot of them are.

On average around 21% of Europeans have never left their country - whereas estimates are between 23-40% of Americans have never traveled internationally. That's not a massive difference really - considering how large the US is and how close Europeans countries are to one another.

R126 here - and let me also add - a lot of Northern Europeans travel to Southern Europeans countries for - sun and beach. Yes, they also get a different country and culture as well, but that's not the main reason why they travel there.

However, when Northern Americans want some respite from the cold and gray - we have plenty of options within our own country - Florida, Arizona, California, Hawaii, coastal Texas.

So let's stop kidding ourselves that Europeans travel to other countries for cultural enrichment - yes it happens, but we have to remember what percentage of European international travel is purely for weather and nobody seems to make a distinction between the two. They HAVE to travel to another country to escape the cold weather.

So much American defensiveness here.

R128 - you'll find when you're being criticized and attacked and feel the need to defend yourself, a person will sound defensive.

What a bullshit and condescending thing to say. You've got nothing else, so when people defend themselves from untruthful or misleading attacks, then you want to be a dick and say "Geesh - stop being so defensive!"

The go-to phrase for an asshole who is being offensive.

r127 Good point. Going to another country for a beach vacation is not really something Americans have to do or would think about. Save the Caribbean I would say.

A British person going to southern Spain for a beach holiday is not traveling to me. A lot of Europeans travel for soccer games, getting drunk over the weekend, for clubbing, etc. They are not learning anything cultural on these "holidays."

Pakistan

...said no one ever

[quote]So let's stop kidding ourselves that Europeans travel to other countries for cultural enrichment - yes it happens, but we have to remember what percentage of European international travel is purely for weather and nobody seems to make a distinction between the two. They HAVE to travel to another country to escape the cold weather.

Absolutely! I'm in Ireland, where this is simply referred to as a "sun holiday." The destination is often less important than guaranteed balmy temperatures: "I just want to go to the sun." What is the cheapest deal? What are the average temperatures in that place in mid-March? This is European mass tourism in 2025 (or at any time, really). It's always been a minority of Europeans who travel somewhere primarily for its culture. Some people will simply google: "Where can I find hot weather in January?" and book somewhere on that basis.

It's not limited to intra-European travel either, but also extends to the Middle East, North Africa, and sub-Saharan Africa: Egypt, Morocco, Turkey, Tunisia, Tanzania... It's all about luxury (or bargain) all-inclusive resorts. It's very European to brag about the weather at your vacation destination.

The Red Sea resort of Eilat marketed itself for years as an ideal winter escape for Europeans, hoping they wouldn't notice that it was located in high-risk Israel (kidding).

What does it matter? You can fly to the south of Europe in a couple hours for 20 Euro. I grew up in flyoverland USA and didn't see the ocean until I was out of high school. In fact we never had real family vacations (save for 2 extended road trips in 18 years) because of the expense and lack of paid vacation time. Europeans would riot if they didn't get at least a month off every year.

A Pew Center study from 12/2023 on the comparative rates of foreign travel among citizens of various countries.

Unsurprisingly, Sweden tops the list with 57% surveyed having travelled to 10 or more countries, and 100% surveyed having travelled outside Sweden..

In the U.S., 11% surveyed had travelled to 10 or more countries, and 76% had travelled outside the US.

A 2018 report by Forbes traces the remarkable rise over 30 years in the number of Americans holding passports:

[quote]Over the past 30 years, the share of U.S. citizens holding a passport has increased dramatically. Last year [2017], a grand total of 21.4 million passports were issued in the U.S., the highest number ever recorded. Putting that number into perspective, a mere 6.3 million were issued back in 1997. That year, only 15% of Americans possessed a passport, though that's still far more than in 1990 when just 4% had one, according to the BBC.

A bunch of defensive Americans making generalizations about 745 million people living in 51 countries - they can’t all be going on beach holidays.

Even if we had 4 or 6 weeks paid vacation, it would still be cost prohibitive for most Americans to travel outside of north America. I just took a trip to Greece and the round trip flight alone was $1,000. The hotel cost plus others put it at close to $3,000.

How the fuck do people's holidays tell anything about "the greatest country in the world"?

These kinds of threads are so futile. Just an excuse for foreigners to dump on Americans and Americans to peddle the American dream fiction. Why do you even do it? Lucy, Charlie Brown and the football, every fucking time.

R137 - the conversation pivoted as do most threads - when R118/R119 said:

"It surprises me, particularly at present, but it's a strong strain of thinking among Americans: a distrust and lack of curiosity of travel. It's drummed into Americans and sticks with a not insignificant number. Time and again Americans are discouraged from knowing anything of the world around them, finding it easier to proclaim anything beyond the US a Third World Shithole that is jealous of the American way of life."

And the responses are to debunk this stereotype and to provide some perspective. That same poster then oddly posts in R134 that 76% of Americans have traveled out of the country, contradicting his claim.

And it's not surprising Scandinavian residents have traveled to other countries: good pay and benefits, LOTS of vacation time, and it's cold AF from October through May.

Of course it has nothing to do with the main topic - but this guy went on a tangent with his posts, so did the rest of the conversation.

[quote]And it's not surprising Scandinavian residents have traveled to other countries: good pay and benefits, LOTS of vacation time, and it's cold AF from October through May.

Also: Malmö in Sweden and Copenhagen in Denmark form a cross-border conurbation. So, even a Swede who has been to Denmark once counts as an international traveller.

What is funny is not only do most Europeans only travel within Europe, most only travel within the EU. So it is the convenience, time, ease of travel that makes them travel. Once they see the distance, cost, time, etc of traveling outside of Europe they do what Americans do-- they don't. Them traveling is not due to curiosity but convenience and low cost.

Me. But I've never been.

r118 and r119 You are full of shit. Most Americans don't travel due to lack of vacation time and cost. My flight to Greece was 9 hours non stop and cost $1,000. Most Americans can't afford that. Now that I have a better paying job I will travel more, but I don't look down on Americans who don't because I was there.

No American can fly to a foreign country for only $250 unless it is a Floridian going to the Caribbean or an American on the northern or southern border going to Canada or Mexico. Europeans need to stop bragging about their inexpensive and short distance "traveling."

Canada

R144 - Australia - Canada's warm weather fraternal twin.

Link please R140.

I live twenty hours minimum flying time from anywhere in Europe and we are swamped with Europeans every summer.

Why do these discussions always devolve into an obsession with Europe? There are other continents than Europe, and I stress “continents” because I swear that some of you persist in the belief that Europe is a country.

R146 wants to be purposefully vague about where he lives to instill a sense of mystery. We all know you mean Australia.

"Swamped" with Europeans is cute. Excluding UK - Australia gets around 650,000 visitors from the other European countries.

Of course you get a lot of UK visitors with the extended family ties and 10 pound pom remnants.

R147 would like us all to really consider moving to Africa, Middle East or Asia.

The conversation got derailed because of people's comments about who travels where and knowledge of areas. And no - nobody thinks Europe is a country - it's an area for comparison.

Please try to keep up.

More than 100,000 Irish-born people currently reside in Australia. With the high cost of living and a housing crisis in Ireland and the virtual impossibility for any young Irish person to buy their own home, no wonder they're leaving in droves, no wonder many are hoping to stay beyond one year, and no wonder R146 might have a feeling of being "swamped." You can't always tell the difference between tourists and foreign workers on a 12-month visa.

r150 Yet in Ireland they are harassing foreigners when they are emigrating to other countries left and right.

Ahahaha Northern Europeans have to travel for sun! Bitch, we can't escape it! Take some of ours!

R148 of course I meant fucking Australia! Why would I want to project an air of mystery with dolts like you?

I’m just not a fan of being doxed - that’s all - having had someone on here attempt it years ago. Hence no more specific location.

Happy googling - I’m sure that you can find some more pertinent stats.

Oh, and enjoy your next weekend in Tijuana - so exciting for people like you!

R150 we are a nation of immigrants - it’s easy enough to visually separate the residents from the backpackers, trust me.

When I talked about “swamped” I was just referring to tourists, not to everybody else. Every summer we suffer the same fate of other tourist destinations where the key Instagrammable locations are heaving with tourists. That’s just how it is these days.

I’d love to know how many of you statistics googlers have ever been to Australia - I’d suggest few if any.

Wow at R153 - Australians are SO defensive! Why are so defensive?

And yes I Google stuff to check if things are true - meanwhile, you just say any old shit that comes to your head - true or false.

650,000 European visitors to the entire country of Australia over 12 months - is under 2,000 a day. You aren't swarming in anything.

It just gets tiresome dealing with experts who know nothing so they pull some random stats out of their arse to prove a point.

650,000 - assuming that’s correct - isn’t much spread across the whole country but it is when focused on the main tourist destinations.

Perhaps you could work out tourists per square km next - it’s a huge country. That should be fun.

Off you go to Tourism Australia for some more data.

R156 - stop being so defensive - jeesh!

Perhaps you need to go back to remedial maths - you sure need it. 650,000 over 12 months - over how many cities and states/territories?

Getting all upset about being called out on your own bullshit - and having the nerve to call other people defensive.

Whn I visited Australia and NEw Zealand I found that neither population were friendly in any meaningful sense. For example, I was warned by a guide book always to sit in the front seat in an Aussie cab and always go to the first cab in line. Well I injured my foot and needed a cab. I went to a taxi stand that had two cabs in it. I went to the first but the cab had its light off and the cabbie was on the phone. I walked up to the cab and gestured to him and he waved me off. So I went to the second cab and I got in the back because traffrc was whizzing by on the other side. The driver quizzed me, why didn't I get in that first cab. I said I approached him and he wasn't available based on the light and based on his waving me off. The first cabbie turned on his light subsequent to this and the cabbie said, well, he's available now. I said you saw me limpoing, you know I was in pain. Why should I move cabs when he was not available when I went up toi him AND he waved me away because he was on the phone. So we argued about it for five minutes and he wouldn 't take me anywhere so I said okay to hell with all of y ou, I would rather go back to my hotel on bloody stumps than give any of you crackers a dime! And so I walked back three miles to m y hotel while the dab driver followed me at 2 mph.

That was in Melbourne, btw

You sound absolutely exhausting and barely able to cope with basic life R158/R159.

R160 sounds like a feeble minded Aussie who came to this thread thinking their country would get top billing!

Not my first run0in wqith an entitled Aussie. On the flight from Kuala Lumpur I had an aisle seat and the woman in the window seat asked me to move so she could stretch out. All six c enter section seats were open. I said you'd have more room if you moved there and I prefer to sit here so I can see out the window. She got angry so I pretended to be asleep and ignored her ranting. She called the stewardess who literally threatend to throw me off the plane if I didn't abandon my assigned seat so this twenty-something princess could have three seats to herself. Australians are the most entitled racist little babies on earth.

And Kiwis would slow down and yell things out the window at me when I walked around Auckland like "faggot" and "Yankee Go Home." The difference being they weren't adolescent boys but adults. Still, kiwis get a pass from me because they all wear shorts and have big muscular legs from walking all those hills!

r163 Yeah the anti Americanism in New Zealand and Australia is not talked about enough. In the case of New Zealand it is worse than Europe, although Europe gets the focus.

Malta looks attractive.

Am I pretending I’m a world traveler? I can visit perfect places from my computer without hopping on a plane or paying hotel fees or ordering over-priced food.

My pretend favorites are Chile or Peru - I haven’t gone to either place, but I dementedly classify both as heaven on earth.

I wanted it to be India, but they’re turning into a meaner version of USA - they’re smarter so it’s going to hurt more.