The end of the San Francisco Centre

Smash and grabs with no impunity are the end of us.

I haven’t been in San Francisco in ages. But I lived there for quite a while. 20+ years. It breaks my heart to hear these stories of what’s become of the city.

I don’t remember this mall well. It opened towards the end of my time in SF. IIRC, there was a Nordstrom there. But the mall, then, was nothing special.

OTOH, I do remember how vibrant downtown was in general. I was really practically still a kid when I first lived there (22?). I recall working a bunch of shitty temp jobs in banks and such downtown. It was gay af. And afterwards we’d go to Sutter’s Mill and have a blast. (That bar couldn’t still be there, could it?)

If you’re younger and living in SF, you might not believe this, but the city back then was pretty safe. Certainly downtown was totally safe. And affordable. I had a cute little studio in the Mission for $350 a month.

Fuck am I old now.

I lived in Guerneville and commuted into the City (1992-1999) and the downtown was a bit rough in places, but still vibrant. At lunch or after work, I'd do some shopping, especially before getting on the GGT bus back to Santa Rosa. That mall was PACKED almost every time I'd stop in.

It opened in 1988 so I wouldn't call it quick, more like a gradual, gasping death from e-commerce and the pandemic. The latter caused a drastic drop in foot traffic with closed offices and remote work. Then the city decided to 'bring people back' by making Market street car-free. Even Uber and Lyft were banned, only the dying taxi industry was allowed in. It didn't bring people back and businesses that remain are begging the city to bring back cars. Finally this year Waymo (driverless cars) got permission to enter.

Several exiting stores in the Mall are suing Westfield Properties, the current management, for stopping Mall maintenance and security. But those were not the reasons for the closure:

In June 2023, Westfield and Brookfield announced that, due to plunging post-pandemic sales, occupancy and foot traffic at the mall, they would stop making loan payments and cede the property to their lenders.

[quote]Smash and grabs with no impunity are the end of us.

Exactly. The radical "woke" progressives have ruined this once great state the past 15 years with all the DEI, CRT, open borders, trans/nonbinary agenda, going very soft on crime and overall socialism.

California used to have very strict "3 strikes and you're out" laws, which they got really soft on, because it was mainly POC being arrested/prosecuted.

Because that's who commits the most crimes. Duh!

[quote] Klan Grannies

Racist and ageist. You’re a piece of shit.

Smash and Grab is in the White House forever.

Is SF mayor John Bergman’s younger brother?

I remember ‘’Marveling’’ at those curved escalators back in the day. Oh well nothin lasts for ever-except the criminal president.

[quote]Has a major retail center in the middle of a city ever imploded so quickly?

Yeah. San Francisco's in 1906.

That is sad, Iwhen I lived in SF I would go there every weekend, because it had a great mix of stores, but the food court in the basement was amazing. Lots of excellent local foods and a pricey but fabulous supermarket. Fat Whore will be in mourning!

It’s racist and classist to assume poor people don’t want criminals punished. They do since a shoplifter is a thief who will steal from others easily. Too bad stupid woke progressives have shit for brains. Thanks for helping to give us Trump guys!!

Sweetie, the woke progressives aren't the problem we currently have.

Invite business back. LOL. As funny and useless as Kamala's constant small business is my passion.

Turn it into funky, affordable housing. Put in a medium size grocery store, a post office, a bank, and a restaurant or two. Maybe a cool, new community college. They won't. They'll let it sit there and complain about how depressing it is. How they want to bring back stores. Stores aren't coming back to malls. Take it from someone in Connecticut. Once they go they don't come back. Instead of being depressed deal in the reality that shopping habits have irrevocably changed. Don't get depressed get busy. While it's still a beautiful building and not in need of rehab.

Center city suburban-modelled malls with chain shops and food courts...

I guess it's better than having nothing, but it seems a very bad idea from the start. The only place where I've seen successful malls in vibrant inner cities is in train stations that can draw both on a captive audience and nearby residents or workers shopping for big chain store goods.

R4 it imploded in the pandemic. It was fine when I visited SF right before COVID. Filled with people shopping.

Socialists destroy cities.

Westfield made two mistakes here-they made little attempt to encourage locals to shop there; and there were too many outdated brands occupying large spaces in this mall.

Westfield got approval to remodel/redevelop it right before Covid, and obviously that got canceled.

R2 - when I was last in SF (last June) Sutter's Mill was still there, hanging on by its fingernails. I lived in SF for over 35 years before leaving last year. It's become dreary and hollowed-out, with a usurping influx of money and status-obsessed people because of the tech bro and tech bimbo mentality that infiltrated everything. Gold rush mentality but tech. The architecture is still gorgeous, of course, and the parks, which are essentially the only large green spaces of natural beauty in the city proper, are still kept up nicely. The current version of the city is unpalatable to me, but I have dear friends there I still love so I will likely continue to visit periodically.

Downtown urban malls generally failed quickly--this stuck around for 30+ years. Water Tower Place in Chicago (now being redeveloped) is the only similar mall with any longevity. Hundreds of suburban malls have died in recent decades. This is hardly the end of the world or all that exceptional.

This just seems like "SF is a hellhole" trolling.

I agree with you for the most part R21, but having lived there for a long time and watched it spiral into tragic decline, it's more than just downtown urban malls going extinct. Downtown is a ghost town almost all the time and that's not only because of the pandemic, WFH, or the popularity of malls declining. I noticed and felt the emptying out happening even before the pandemic. The pandemic just accelerated what was already happening.

I wonder what's going to happen to the Burke Williams spa that's in that mall.

I remember a phrase that has stuck with me. “1/3 of malls are dead. 1/3 of malls are dying. And 1/3 of malls are thriving.”

This just fits the trend happening everywhere.

Stonestown Mall is thriving as is Serramonte. They were able to shirt very fast. Not all malls are dying. Trader Joe’s and Target are very much thriving in that area. As are all the touring theatre houses.

SHIFT not shirt.

Most malls are dead or dying. Trader Joe's almost never has stores in malls--what they're doing is irrelevant.

I like Bloomingdales- To me its a more upscale Nordstrom. And that store was stunning.

Its a shame to watch America die in every single way.

[quote] but it seems a very bad idea from the start. The only place where I've seen successful malls in vibrant inner cities is in train stations that can draw both on a captive audience and nearby residents or workers shopping for big chain store goods.

Keep your ignorant opinion to yourself. Had you ever been to San Francisco Centre, or to San Francisco, for that matter?

People overlook another obvious factor in the collapse of malls

The decline of disposable income among the middle class

Keep your ignorant opinion to yourself. Had you ever been to [quote]San Francisco Centre, or to San Francisco, for that matter?

So very tender to the touch, R29.

And yes on both counts. I maintain that the mark of a healthy big city commercial district is not its shopping malls. Squeezing a suburban concept into an urban center doesn't seem a recipe for success.

It's not just the mall though. I was there this month. First time in San Francisco since the pandemic.

Yes, the mall lost Nordstrom and now Bloomingdale's, but Union Square is losing Macy's and presumably Saks, which is appointment only.

Only Neiman has no immediate plans to close.

R23 it’s a law firm!

R25 Stonestown is suburbia, as far as the City goes. That’s why it works.

I think malls, overall, have been in a huge decline for several years...and the pandemic may have put a death knell on San Francisco Centre. But look at the other closings mentioned at r32 as well, so SF City has seen a huge decline in bigger stores remaining solvent in the city proper, period.

I lived in SF city from 2007 - 2009 and the mall was usually pretty populated when I would go there (worked in the Financial District). Although some of the same homeless/drug populations were there at that time, they weren't quite so rampant or extreme as they are now.

[quote]Union Square is losing Macy's and presumably Saks, which is appointment only.

Macys in Union Square is closing! Wow! I spent so much money there over the years.

As bustling as Union Square and that whole part of town used to be, I find it hard to grasp the concept that Macys is now closing.

Was sad to hear the San Francisco Centre closed (spent a lot of money there too), but am heartbroken that Macys is leaving Union Square.

Macys closing is pretty shocking. That place was always crowded not to mention I loved the Macys mens store down the street where I used to make appointments with a personal shopper every few months. Damn

That Macy’s in Union Square has been going downhill for years now.

When you go to the Macy’s in Herald Square, it still feels like a unique experience.

The Union Squire Macy’s just feels like a bigger suburban mall Macy’s these days. And it is poorly maintained- every time I go there the escalators are broken.

[quote]When you go to the Macy’s in Herald Square, it still feels like a unique experience.

Herald Square Macys definitely was, and still is, a unique experience. Always feels like you can spend the entire day there and keep coming across something new and exciting things around every corner. Going there was always an adventure

The Macys in Union Square managed to recreate that unique experience almost as well as in the Herald Square store. Was always a fun time. That's a large reason why that Macys got so much of my money.

So sorry to hear its gone so far downhill. But all the mall Macys have been going steadily downhill for the past two decades, so I guess it shouldn't be a surprise the Union Square one followed that same trend.

I guess tourism is down, because Im pretty sure tourists kept most of the stores alive in Union square. Is the giant Ross on Market still there?

R40 Ross is still there, and apparently doing so well that they're opening another store a block away in the former Nordstrom Rack space.

[quote]Macys closing is pretty shocking.

Is it really? They just closed the landmark Wanamaker’s store in Center City Philadelphia (the one from “Mannequin.”) The former Marshall Fields in Chicago is expected to close as well. The buildings with their beautiful architecture are more valuable as hotels or event spaces than as department stores.

I've been to SF many times and Union Square on a weekday has never seemed bustling. The area around the mall has benefited from the Convention Center and the public transit stop. SF has had a more difficult time with regaining tourism and conventions than cities in the East or Chicago. The convention/conference trade came back first in the East---density, strong attendance histories and they went for low-cost cities with hub airports after that---the Twin Cities and Denver seemed to get more meetings than in the past and probably were seen as better gambles than SF (or other West Coast cities) which are relatively expensive. SF tourism relies more on Asia than the East and Asian countries opened up after COVID later than Europe. I recall European families being the pioneers in terms of post-COVID tourism in DC.

Too bad The Emporium, which occupied that space previously couldn't be revived. In my opinion, it started going downhill when they changed their 'bargain basement' into an upscale kitchen dept. Across Market Street there used to be the biggest Woolworth's in the world. It was an impressive '5-and-dime' experience.

Oh yes, r44....Emporium Capwell...I remember the roof with the rides for kiddies. Those were the days.

Is the Abortion Hut still open?

[quote]The radical "woke" progressives have ruined this once great state the past 15 years with all the DEI, CRT, open borders, trans/nonbinary agenda, going very soft on crime and overall socialism.

This is such a tired cliche that I'm wondering if it was generated by AI.

St. Louis Center imploded spectacularly

Also Portside Toledo, the one in Akron I think it was in a grain silo

Grand Avenue Mall in Milwaukee is dead as a doornail

Underground Atlanta is on its way out

Just read that Union Square Neiman Marcus is possibly next. The Rotunda restaurant fourth floor closed during COVID and remains closed. Saks Fifth Avenue is appointment only- ‘’Please-no Smash & Grab’’

R52 Where are you reading this rumor about Neiman Marcus closing? Because you're definitely misinformed about Rotunda. I've dined there post-pandemic and their reservation page on OpenTable is active.

R52 I'm not saying you're wrong about the store closing rumor, I'd just like to see it corroborated. Neiman Marcus' parent company was recently acquired by Saks, and you correctly point out their current appointment-only policy in that Union Square store.

[quote]California used to have very strict "3 strikes and you're out" laws, which they got really soft on, because it was mainly POC being arrested/prosecuted.

No, the actual problem was that California's strict 3-strikes laws resulted in a burgeoning prison population that the braniacs who wrote the 3-strikes laws failed to comprehend would inevitably happen and did not prepare. The conditions in the state-run prisons were so bad and dragged on for so long that the courts ordered them to release prisoners early to alleviate the overcrowding and inhumane conditions. We have clauses in both the Federal and State Constitutions barring cruel and unusual punishments for a reason.

In the process, we also realized that putting every petty criminal in prison for misdemeanors and minor crimes was a waste of time, resources and caused more problems than it solved. The police were two-faced about the whole situation, complaining on one hand that they were overworked and failing and on the other hand that their hands were tied behind their backs when it came to managing the problem. Translated: give us more money to buy expensive toys.

The problem is complex and difficult to make progress on, let alone solving, but the responsibility for the problem is not solely on liberals/progressives or even the woke; local and state-wide law enforcement, a prison system built for profit, and corporations and the wealthy not paying their fair share all contributed an outsized proportion to the problem, and in particular, the police in the City of San Francisco hold some special culpability when they petulantly refused to enforce the law out of spite when their authority was challenged and ultimately curtailed.

There are no clean hands here.

Amazon is to blame for most retail problems around the country. The fact that we’re headed toward a recession doesn’t help either.

Smash and grab gangs may be part of the problem, but that because stores think it’s too expensive to pay enough for security. This is why they tell their clerks not to intervene—because, in the past, stores got sued by these clerks when they got hurt.

Violent crime is caused mainly by poor people in places with large wealth disparities. It has little to do with police presence or your race.

If you are in a high crime area, you live in a place with large wealth disparities.

[quote]This is why they tell their clerks not to intervene—because, in the past, stores got sued by these clerks when they got hurt.

No, that's simply not the case. The reason management tells clerks not to intervene is because they are not trained to arrest and detain suspects, and in the process make so many mistakes that will cause the cases to be dismissed after very expensive prosecutions that it makes intervening much more expensive than just letting the crooks get away with it.

But it's cute that you think management cares about clerks so much that they concern themselves with whether or not clerks get hurt.

And by the way and not wholly unrelated, the vast majority of retail theft is committed by employees and not random shoplifters... even the smash and grab style we've seen so much about in recent years is a pittance compared to employee theft (and by employee, I mean far more than just clerks in the stores).

^Correct. “Shrink” is the single largest source of retail loss.

[quote]the vast majority of retail theft is committed by employees and not random shoplifters.

Link please.

[quote]But it's cute that you think management cares about clerks so much that they concern themselves with whether or not clerks get hurt.

How do you know this?

R60 there’s this new-fangled thing called Google.

Or you could go to the library and research the last 50 years of retail management and loss control.

[quote]there’s this new-fangled thing called Google.

Oh. OK, I'll Google it.

Google says:

"While employee theft is a serious issue in retail, it's not the "vast majority" of retail theft. External theft, including shoplifting and organized retail crime, generally contributes a larger portion of losses. While employee theft is a significant contributor, it's often estimated to be a smaller percentage than external theft. "

Yes..."woke" is the reason why retail is dead...

Insert eye roll emoji.

Brick and Mortar retail has been slowly dying over the last 20 years, mostly replaced by Amazon and online shopping.

Which we ALL do.

So, instead of blaming those darn brown woke socialists, go look in the mirror. You're the one that helped kill retail.

Shrink goes beyond simple employee theft.

Try again.

[quote]But it's cute that you think management cares about clerks so much that they concern themselves with whether or not clerks get hurt.

Talking out of your ass again.

From the National Retail Federation:

"While theft undoubtedly affects retailer margins, the surge in violence associated with these crimes has become a major concern. Retailers' top priority is to ensure the safety of both associates and customers. According to “The Impact of Retail Theft & Violence 2024” report, 73% of retailers reported that shoplifters have become more aggressive and violent over the past year, with 84% expressing heightened concern about the violence occurring during theft incidents."

"Organized retail crime related violence and theft continue to affect the retail industry, particularly in the last two years. The economic impact on national and small business retailers is significant, but the broader consequence is that these crimes jeopardize the safety of store employees and customers."

The Macys in downtown Chicago (former Marshall Field) is a zombie version of itself. And it's enormous, one whole square block of downtown and I believe nine stories. Empty most of the time. But in the middle of summer it's a nice way to get out of the heat for a couple of minutes while you're walking through the Loop.

I can't believe it's still open.

R62 agreed. “Link please” posters are lazy fucks who need a smack upside the head.

R68 No, you're wrong. If a poster makes a wild claim like: "the vast majority of retail theft is committed by employees and not random shoplifters." THEY should provide the source.

In Boston we have the Prudential Center that connects to Copley Place. There is a definite decline at both but nothing like what is being described here.

They did have to close the rear side entrances to NM because of theft and the restrooms just outside get locked because of sexy stuff going on. But that seems pretty mild.

The Pru/Copley mall remains the best cut through from the South End to the Back Bay so it will always have foot traffic. A double size Krispy Kreme was never going to work out. Once they closed the food court and Legal Seafood I thought the mall was done but it's still bustling.

So it’s a passageway. Not a mall.

Got it.

That SF mall is soulless selling crap at different prices but all crap. the consumer is not stupid. There is no reason to shop there.

R71 A passageway with a Saks Fifth Avenue and Lord & Taylor.

There's a Lord & Taylor?

A Lord and a Savior!

I’m from San Jose and haven’t been to SF in a long time besides driving through to get to Marin county. There’s just as many great shopping areas outside the city without the bad parking, traffic and homeless problem.

^ tell us what a lame gay you are! Really.

R74 Eataly, Frette, etc.

Yet another shoe has dropped. Saks makes it official. Closing on May 10.

The article puts it in stark relief. Union Square occupancy was 6% pre-pandemic. Now up to 23%.

You could see that closing coming all the way from 280. Yawn….