The Mirror and the Light on PBS

They’ve recast a lot of parts, not that I remember any of the politics. So he slipped up at the end by saying he helped Mary because he promised her mother, Catherine of Aragon? She was dead at this point, not sure why the rest of them looked shocked.

Lilit Lesser was quite good as Mary...but, also strange to see her a vulnerable victim when of course she eventually became a bitter old tyrant.

It didn't bother me that they had aged...though I did think, "isn't it time that Henry be a bit porkier?"

I also forgot that Wolsey is actually dead now and so everytime we see him (Jonathan Pryce) he's really a...ghost? A memory? Cromwell's conscious?

And, not to stir up a hornet's nest, but....it's really stupid how they're "diversifying" the cast. I mean, were there actually very many "people of color" bopping around in Tudor England? At court? And, other than the fact it gave some black extras some work, what does it really accomplish except a back pat for being so diverse? Not to mention, all the actors of color are literally IN THE BACKGROUND of the scenes they're in...the optics of that aren't good either. "We're going to have diverse casting!!! But, you don't get to talk and you will lurk in the back of every scene!!!" So clunky and awkward.

You’re right of course R2 but remember, this is from the same people/network that’s doing an Anne Boleyn series with a very dark skinned black woman playing Anne. It’s also funny how “diversity” always only means black people and never Asian, Hispanic etc.

That said, it’s law in England that every production have so many actors of color on the cast so the producers are forced into having this type of casting.

It’s completely ridiculous to have a law like that about casting. Just stop already with the stupidity. where it make sense diverse casting should be encouraged not forced by law.

r3 Cite proof of this law

R4 There isn't a law like that.

Was glad we got a little Anne Boleyn at the beginning because this season so far isn’t the same without her.

This season really suffers for the loss of Bernard Hill (RIP) as "Uncle Norfolk."

And I've gotten used to colorblind casting in historical dramas, but Jane Seymour's sister?? That was ridiculous and actually made the story harder to follow.

My apologies @R3, I stand corrected that it isn’t a law; but it is a requirement of the British Film Institute and awards organizations and there are indeed penalties for not meeting this diversity standards. Here’s some of the language:

To be eligible for BFI funding or BIFA awards, British films must meet the BFI Diversity Standards, which require projects to demonstrate diversity and inclusion in at least two of four areas, including on-screen representation, themes, and narratives. Here's a more detailed breakdown: BFI Diversity Standards: The BFI (British Film Institute) introduced Diversity Standards in 2016 to address underrepresentation in the film industry and ensure that films funded by the BFI Film Fund demonstrate a commitment to diversity and inclusion. Areas of Focus: The Standards cover four areas: On-Screen Representation, Themes and Narratives (Standard A), Project Leadership and Creative Practitioners (Standard B), Industry Access and Opportunities (Standard C), and Opportunities for Diversity in Audience Development (Standard D). Meeting the Standards: To meet the requirements, projects must satisfy criteria in at least two of the four areas, with Standards C and E (Industry Access and Opportunities and Opportunities for Diversity in Audience Development) being mandatory for all projects. On-Screen Representation (Standard A): This standard focuses on the representation of diverse characters and narratives on screen, including targets for gender balance, ethnic diversity, LGBTQIA+ representation, disability representation, working-class backgrounds, and representation of individuals based outside of London and the South East of England.

The BBC which controls the majority of broadcasting also has its own rules and standards regarding ‘diversity’ and how productions are cast. From BBC’s site -

“For all new BBC commissions from September 4, 2024, production companies must commit to at least 25% of their production teams being from underrepresented groups, including Black, Asian, or minority ethnic backgrounds, and those who identify as deaf, disabled, and/or neurodivergent. Here's a more detailed breakdown of the BBC's diversity requirements:”

“Jane Seymour”, it was driving me crazy where I’d seen her before…Miss Scarlet and the Duke. I only watched one episode because I couldn’t stand that plucky heroine trope but that’s her.

When she was introduced to Lady Mary, Henry said something about being a mother to her. She whispered something in his ear and then he laughed and repeated it out loud, there was only seven years age difference between them so she couldn’t possibly be her mother. So is that supposed to mean that Jane Seymour is too literal-minded? What an odd thing to complain about, and then the whole whispering in his ear? I don’t know anything about her history, haven’t read the book, just know that [SPOILER!] she died in childbirth.

r10 So you made up a law and now you're making up a claim about the BBC. The paragraph you linked is about the production team, not casting.

On top of which, none of it matters. Aw, you racists get upset, so what? And fuck off with the historical accuracy bullshit, it's a drama not a documentary. If you lack the intelligence to just ignore skin colour I doubt you could keep up with the plot anyway.

[quote] What an odd thing to complain about,

Speaking of which...

The ever present threat of the death sentence from her father, historians argue, had a chilling effect on Mary's character, R2.

And as for Black people in Tudor England, you should read "Black Tudors" by Miranda Kaufman. She's identified about 400 individuals who were Black and not enslaved in Tudor and early Stuart England.

The Black actors playing roles at the Council table and as ladies-in-waiting was for a contemporary audience, but there was at least one Black man at the courts of Henry VII and Henry VIII. He was a musician.

R14 I'm aware of that book...it's on my "I want to read that" list.

I'd love to see an actual movie/series about "Black Tudors". THAT would/could be very interesting, if done right with a good script.

That's the thing with dumb "checklist" casting. It's lazy, inaccurate and boring. I don't think people, even people of color, want to see Anne Boleyn be played by an actress of color. I think we'd all much rather see AUTHENTIC stories about people of color living in under represented eras. I want to know more what it was like to be Black or Asian and living in Tudor England, or Napoleonic France, or Weimar Germany. That would be fascinating.

It can't possibly be that they got cast on talent and ability, can it? No, must be "checklist casting". Go on, whine about DEI now.

The other DL thread on the show.

The thing they were trying to establish with Jane Seymour whispering to her husband she is too young to be Mary's mother was to establish that she was the most sincere and straightforward of the king's wives, which is why he prized her so much. Both of his previous wives, Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn, had spent much of their earlier years in foreign courts and were well skilled at flattery and sophistry, as were both Henry and his daughter Mary; he considered Jane Seymour a breath of fresh air because she was not like that. She genuinely was kind to Princess Mary throughout her reign because she felt sorry for her, and knew she was the king's only surviving adult child; she felt she deserved to be treated better than she was. She didn't need to pretend Mary was her daughter, as other queens might have done.

Thank you r18. She did seem very kind when they walked off together.

Cromwell himself had his eye on Jane Seymour in the first season.

I guess Tom Holland is now too grand to return.

The episode made it seem like the execution of Anne and the marriage to Jane happened on the same day. That seemed unlikely to me and I checked. Henry proposed to Jane the day after the execution and the wedding was 10 days later.

So not exactly the same day but close enough it made no difference. Can you imagine what it was like back then? King has wife publicly executed and marries new one right away. This after he wholesale ordered everyone to convert to a new religion. Kinda makes Trump look like an amateur.

They were in a hurry to wed, if you know what I mean. Nudge Nudge.

I’ve never seen the Wolf Hall series, How many are there? Is it worth going to the beginning and watching?

R23 There are only two "installments" (seasons seems like the wrong word.) You should absolutely watch the first one; it's amazing television and you'll better understand the events of part two.

It’s an adaptation of three novels that cover the period 1529-1540. The first two novels were the basis of the original series, but the third novel had not been finished so they paused. It wound up taking 10 years to make the second part.

I've never had so much sympathy for poor Mary. Her beloved mother is dead, her father exiles her and she's bullied by everyone around her.

Even though Cromwell was certainly no blameless victim, I don't want to watch a show about an otherwise skillful guy (that Henry later regretted killing) finds himself on the wrong side of a fat, disgusting, smelly, tyrannical king and destroyed on a whim out of petty petulance. Sounds a bit too timely. Plus, Claire Foy was an absolute force of nature in the previous season. Obviously her part is over, but she'll be missed

It's not just Henry who Cromwell gets on the wrong side of, R27, it's also the nobility, mainly the Dukes of Norfolk and Suffolk (the former is a horror show). They can't stand Cromwell for rising far above his station and for all the power he's been given (by Henry, but there you go). Also Cromwell's enemy -- Stephen Gardiner, Cardinal Wolsey's former secretary (Wolsey replaced him with Cromwell and made Gardiner the Bishop of Winchester, moving him far away from the court). He's very clever, while the dukes are not. In the first series Gardiner was played by Mark Gatiss, who always looked like someone was holding a turd under his nose. Alex Jennings plays him this time around.

[quote]I’ve never seen the Wolf Hall series, How many are there? Is it worth going to the beginning and watching?

Very much so. The first television miniseries "Wolf Hall" adapts the first two books in Mantel's cromwell series, Wolf Hall and Bring Out the Bodies, in six episodes, and it features two of the finest performances I think I've seen on TV in my whole life: Mark Rylance's crafty, outwardly imperturbable but inwardly conflicted Thomas Cromwell, and Claire Foy's intelligent, mercurial, and opportunistic Anne Boleyn.

Apparently (*SPOILER!!*) Foy's Anne Boleyn will come back this season as yet another ghost to converse with Cromwell (like Cardinal Wolsey's ghost has done), and I'm pretty excited for that.

The Hollywood Reporter had an interesting story today on how hard it was to get the 2nd series made. Streamers have made it harder for non-streamers to produce these kinds of high quality period dramas in the UK.

Ahem.

I have the merest grasp of what’s going on but that was so sad to watch.

This was such a sad episode, although as Cromwell as much as admitted, it's in many ways the beginning of the birds coming home to roost. Cromwell is shown in this to be very good to Jane Seymour and (when he can be) to Princess Mary, but he is in many ways responsible for Mary's awful position; and he brought down Anne Boleyn and her suitors in order to get into the further graces of the King.

I was impressed tonight for the first time with Damien Lewis as Henry VIII; I liked how foolish and vain he seemed trying to "astound" his courtiers with his Turkish outfits, and how easily led he can be by Cromwell (so far). Mark Rylance continues to be excellent as Cromwell--he's so gentle most of the time he almost makes you forget that everyone else sees him for the bully and hatchet-man he actually is. And he was very moving being rejected totally by Wolsey's unforgiving daughter.

Lady Margaret Douglas was not afraid to get on the wrong side of the Crown.

Cromwell isn’t by nature the bully and the hatchet man. We are shown his true nature is loyal and kind. But as a commoner he can only rise as the clever servant of powerful men. Henry is a bully and a hatchet man. The deal is Cromwell enacts Henry’s will so Henry doesn’t have to That’s his job. He’s very good at

I thought the point of the interaction with Woolsey’s daughter was to show how little the world knows of his true heart. We know he loved the Cardinal and was loyal and really did remain with Henry in order to protect the Cardinal, but anonymous strangers project their own flaws onto him and poison his reputation out of malice or for their own advantage. His fate is to be hated for Henry’s sins.

[quote] Henry is a bully and a hatchet man.

A hatchet man means someone who is brought into a situation by another to perform distasteful tasks. So Henry VIII cannot be a hatchet man.

I meant it literally. He chops off a LOT of heads.

I loved the scene with Wolsey's daughter. The actress was excellent.

Speaking of the scene with Cromwell and Wolsey's daughter Dorothea, it astounds me that I'm old enough to remember as a child (1960s) that nuns were still wearing the full nun's habit; the same as the costume worn by Dorothea.

R40. Yup. I remember going back to school after summer break and finding our nuns had switched to the 'mini habit' which was a black dress slightly below the knee with a white collar and a small veil minus the wimple. Sister Anastasia was a redhead! Who knew?????

Grinning at r40. I share your memory.

Anyway, while watching and even though I know how the situation ends, in my mind I keep urging Cromwell, "Gather up your wealth and flee!"

[quote]"Gather up your wealth and flee!"

I was kind of thinking this too; "oh, I think I'll retire to Ireland" (or something like that) and never be heard of again. But I guess on a practical level, there was no outrunning Henry & even if he succeeded, Cromwell had too many enemies outside the court and probably would not have lasted long. Additionally, he might have also considered what would happen to his few remaining allies, including his son if he disappeared.

Good points, r42.

I think he might have retired. He’d have been no further threat to his enemies. But very few people walk away from that kind of power. He was doing good work for England and Henry. The series naturally focuses on political intrigue, but to the extent that Henry’s reign resulted in great progress in modernizing the state and delivering for the people, it was men like Wolsey and Cromwell doing the heavy lifting.

In real life, his son did quite well—his father’s downfall had no continuing impact on the family.

Mark Rylance got his hard cock out in an arty 90s movie

R39, the scene with Wolsey’s daughter was extraordinary and disturbing. Rylance’s Cromwell is an amazing character. He is complex and full of deep feelings, but he is not in any sense a nice man. He willingly does horrible things. He doesn’t revel in it, he wouldn’t do anything that base, but threatening and controlling other people is, for him, intensely satisfying. Dorothea sees him for who he is.

Dorothea just met him. Plus she’s grown up in a convent. Her opinion of him is based on what others have told her.

I think remaining loyal to Wolsey is one of the few pure and good things Cromwell has done. Then, for him to hear how it's believed he betrayed Wolsey is, to him, much deeper and more painful than Dorothea rejecting his proposal.

To see Cromwell sobbing was so moving. Rylance has earned all the praise he receives as an actor.

Plus, I've had a crush on Mark Rylance since the first Wolf Hall series. He makes me have impure thoughts.

I want to give some praise to Thomas (everyone's a Thomas in the show) Brodie-Sanger as Rafe Sadler. Having read a lot about real Cromwell, Sadler and his family remained loyal to Cromwell's memory for generations. They kept the Holbein portrait, and it was recently discovered that they had a prayer book of his. It makes me a bit weepy every time he's on screen this season.

"Through her research, McCaffrey learned of the existence of a third copy of the Book of Hours—one donated to Cambridge by Dame Anne Sadleir in August 1660. When Hever’s curatorial team viewed the copy, Palmer pointed out its resemblance to the volume lying on a green tablecloth in the famous portrait, which Holbein painted between 1532 and 1533."

Oh jeez, I thought Brodie-Sanger was his son. I have no idea who any of these people are.

His son was the handsome one with black hair and a jaunty feather in his cap. He marries one of Seymour women (Jane’s sister in law). He survives his father’s downfall.

Here you go, R51.

Also for R51, the doughy young man with the beard who's always with Cromwell is his nephew, Richard. The son of Cromwell's sister, his real surname is Williams, but he changed it to Cromwell. He went on to be the ancestor of Oliver Cromwell. (There's a lot about Cromwell's sister and her husband in the 'Wolf Hall' book.)

Sadler signed the instrument making Lady Jane Grey Queen, yet was merely sent to live in the country while Jane and her allies lost their heads. He was able to return to Court when Queen Mary died. Interesting story there, I imagine.

Why? Mary pardoned him. She was known to be fairly forgiving early in her short reign. He lost his positions and seat in Parliament, but not his assets. He laid low until she died. And then served as a major asset for the new Queen. The story is well-known.

Jane, her husband and her father were executed. Not all of “her allies.”

R48, it is, but she correctly foresees what is going to happen to the monasteries. Cromwell may believe that his reassurances to her are sincere, but they can't be.

R2 Katherine of Aragon had black Africans in her court

Did I say “all her allies?” No.

I sometimes wonder what the reaction of a major historical figure like Cromwell would be to learning how things turned out in the future. Like would he be surprised that Anne Boleyn’s daughter became the greatest ruler of that Tudor lot, or would he think “Of course”?

Which allies then?

Or that from Mary of Scotland would English monarchs descend for 500 years and counting.

Do you not know how to Google?

r61, at the time Cromwell was executed, neither Mary nor Elizabeth were by that time in the legal line of succession: it wasn't until after his death that Henry married Katherine Parr, who persuaded him to restore the two daughters to the succession after Edward. Cromwell could not have foreseen Elizabeth would ever accede to the throne.

Of course he could. They had already been in, and out, of line while he was alive.

I know that R65. This is just a little way I entertain myself.

[quote] at the time Cromwell was executed

USE SPOILER TAGS DAMMIT!

j/k

Rylance is portraying Cromwell as knowing his fate.

Anticipating the worst would be more accurate IMHO.

I thought the guy who played Ann Boleyn's father in The Tudors was really effective as a total piece of slime. I didn't get enough malice from this one so I don't miss him.

I don't understand why Jane Seymour is white but her sister Bess is black.

Well that was awkward, Bess and Cromwell talking at cross purposes.

It's always interesting given how humane and reflective Mark Rylance plays his character to then see how everyone else views him. His son told him to stay away from Bess because he thinks his father is greedy and selfish, and wants what everyone else has.

That was a real disconnect for me. His son knows an entirely different person than we do.

Color-blind casting was very disconcerting here.

Color blind casting might have worked better with Lady Rochford. Casting a black sister for milky white Jane was silly.

Jane was not played by a Black actress.

When did women in England get to stop hiding their hair? There was a scene this season when Cromwell was brought into an audience with Princess Mary and her hood was off, and it was a little shocking, since the women always, always, always cover their hair on this show.

Cromwell and Henry VIII are both losing their mojo at the same time.

I liked Alex Jennings (the Duke of Windsor from the first two seasons of "The Crown") tonight as Cromwell's bitchy nemesis, Bishop Stephen Gardiner.

Henry cut Cromwell dead when he kept Gardiner in the room with him and dismissed Cromwell.

If only Cromwell had left for Antwerp with his sweet daughter.

I don't understand why (by the logic of this series) Cromwell doesn't retire from the court as Jenneke suggested. He said tonight he's been a broken man since Wolsey's daughter denounced him, his beloved Jane Seymour is dead, and he's losing his grip in arguments and allowing Gardiner to maneuver him into fights he cannot win.

We all know what's going to happen--that Henry's marriage with Anne of Cleves that Cromwell is arranging is going to be a huge debacle, and will spell his downfall--but it's not clear to me why in this series Cromwell does not seem to fight against the dangerous position he's in.

I feel like the first series did a better job of explaining what was going on. I don’t remember it ever mentioned that he spent time in Antwerp. I don’t remember anything about him sharing the same beliefs as the religious guy who wanted to debate the king. And I’ll never figure out how the Holy Roman Emperor fits into the scheme of things.

The Holy Roman Emperor at the time was Charles V, and he was also the King of Spain. He was enormously powerful and ruled for a very long time. He hated henry VIII because he was the first cousin of Katherine of Aragon, whom Henry mistreated and discarded. Eventually his son became Philip II of Spain, and married Mary Tudor, Henry's eldest daughter.

One thing that surprises me about this era was that it took all this time before England had an undisputed female monarch. Many other European countries of the time had had (often successful) undisputed female monarchs by that time--Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Poland, Castile, Navarre, Naples, etc.--but England had only had a disputed queen (Matilda), and so the idea they could not be ruled successfully by a woman was stubbornly held. It was just by chance that they had not had to have a female ruler earlier, though: it was only necessitated because the Tudor dynasty was so young when Henry VIII came to the throne, and he had no male siblings who produced children, and his wives had such bad luck producing sons (until Edward VI).

Once they had to resign themselves to having regnant queens (two in a row), they got lucky with Elizabeth I and saw that a woman could be a capable ruler, and thereafter it wasn't really a problem for them to have women to reign over them.

Agree r82.

I'm guessing here, but maybe the screenplay is trying to convey that even a brilliant tactician like Cromwell, who, on his climb up, saw for himself old men hang on too long, can't comprehend that, now, he is one of them.

Regnant but not pregnant!

…until Victoria came along.

R84 she was his aunt. He was her nephew.

R86, we see this in real life all the time. People who are drawn to power can never walk away from it.

[quote] I don’t remember it ever mentioned that he spent time in Antwerp. I don’t remember anything about him sharing the same beliefs as the religious guy who wanted to debate the king.

That’s on you, not the show. Cromwell’s religious beliefs were explored and Henry gave him the tapestry that has been shown repeatedly because the woman in it reminds him of a woman he loved in Antwerp.

There’s a lot to keep track of, especially if you haven’t rewatched the first series recently.

Cromwell’s character as we see it is often at odds with how others seem to see him. The author is perhaps making a point about the nature of power, but I find it confusing. I think he stays because he’s addicted to power.

True, I haven’t rewatched the first series. I also haven’t been reading any synopses which do go into the background history a lot but I will now. For instance, Cromwell had an illegitimate daughter but she wasn’t Jenneke from Antwerp. She was British and much younger in this time period. Jenneke is to show how Cromwell is losing power but unable or unwilling to retire.

Can you explain this scene though: Cromwell goes to the Tower to interrogate the Pole guy and ominously lights a candle. And then leaves?

Charlie "Black Mirror" Brooker on "Wolf Hall"

The Poles are a powerful family related to the regime the Tudor’s overthrew. Indeed had Richard III not be killed by Henry’s father, his nephew John de la Pole would have succeeded Richard.. The family plotted against the Tudors until the last to claim the throne was killed early in Henry’s reign

They are now thought to be conspiring with foreign Catholic powers to restore Catholicism by putting Mary on the throne.. One of them is being harbored by the French King.. They are trying to assassinate him, and Cromwell thinks the prisoner (his brother) knows where he is.

Margaret loved the pole! Catholic hussy, she was.

R84 Nephew not cousin. Charles' mother was Juana La Loca from whom he inherited the Spanish throne. She was Katherine's sister.

He took the throne. It was not a typical succession.

Thanks r93, I did get that much. What I wanted to know is, did the brother talk before the candle burned down? There wasn’t any reference to it afterwards in the episode.

I excuse my ignorance of Tudor history by saying I was more interested in the Plantagenets (and the Stuarts) but damn, I don’t remember any John de la Pole. Re Richard’s successor, since his young son has just died, his brother George, Duke of Clarence had a son, but I guess that pesky treason charge against George ruled him out but not his sister. Such a bloodthirsty time.

The Poles were the leading Catholic family.

The Tudors aren't the most interesting British royal family by any means but Henry VIII the fuck monster and Elizabeth I the virgin (OR WAS SHE) are the most attractive subjects for fiction and drama, plus the costumes are fantastic.

The Stuarts were more into sexy play.

What royal family do you think was more interesting r99? Oh god, it’s not Victoria is it?

The Stuarts had more out gays. The Plantagenets had more war and intrigue. The original Norman conquerors were literally Vikings.

[quote]The original Norman conquerors were literally Vikings.

The Normans were French, from Normandy.

The Vikings long preceded them.

r103, the Normans were Norse invaders, but it's true they adopted French language and culture.

At his peak, Damien Lewis was very handsome and sexy...so were Jason McKidd and Toby Stephens.

Alas, redheads seem to age even worse than blonds.

I like that they reversed the usual take so that here Anne of Cleves was actually the most beautiful so far of Henry VIII's wives, but because she recoiled from him when he tried to surprise her when first meeting her, he never forgave her and acted as if he was disappointed in her physical appearance.

The trouble with the series now is that the entirety of the final episode will have to be in prison as Cromwell awaits his fate.

Nice re-write of history.

She was intelligent, yet quite homely.

The actress who plays Lady Mary continues to be amazing. I loved how subtle her eye gesture was to Cromwell that she was willing to meet the Elector of Bavaria for a possible romantic match.

R107, not all of them. Some historians believe she wasn't as homely as Henry complained she was, and her homeliness was exaggerated because of her poor first meeting with him.

The real Anne of Cleves was supposedly a nice woman. Once she allowed the king to divorce her she remained in England and he let her live in multiple houses in great comfort; he liked her very much as a friend, and was commonly referred to afterwards as 'the king's sister." She outlived the king and both of Henry's subsequent other wives, and she became friends with the king's three children, all of whom became monarchs after their father.

It seems a bit pat, France and Spain might have broken their alliance so now marrying the German was a mistake? It can’t all be due to Henry not liking her. Isn’t an alliance with Germany beneficial in itself?

The last golden days of PBS

I didn’t get that it was a mistake as much as it was no longer necessary for the protection of the realm, allowing Henry to indulge his pride.

I understand that the show is limited to six episodes, never mind the tight budget restrictions, but, man, they are leaving out a LOT. Starting with the dissolution of the monasteries. The only passing mentions of it, I think, have been Cromwell's dream of buying and retiring to Launde Abbey (in Mantel's book he does buy a couple of abbeys for family members), the Abbess Zouche telling Cromwell there was no way she was letting the crown/Cromwell have her Shaftesbury Abbey, and the Duke of Norfolk's tantrum about giving up the abbey where his relatives are buried. I believe Cromwell grew very rich from the dissolution of the monasteries (as did Henry), yet another reason for the nobility to hate him.

There were scenes of Cromwell's crew rummaging through piles of stuff they'd looted from monasteries in the first season, I believe.

It is done.

I think I read somewhere that Henry regretted executing Cromwell, and, of course blamed others for it.

Damien Lewis was great in his big scene at the end of tonight's final episode. His Henry VIII knew he was making a mistake in killing Cromwell but had gone too far to change the order to have him killed.

I liked the wordless scene with Catherine Howard bitching out her ladies-in-waiting before her wedding as they dressed her, and Lady Mary walking away in disgust. Cromwell has predicted accurately that Catherine is proceeding to her inevitable doom.

R97, the often-mentioned Poles and Courtneys were descended from various Plantagenet kings, so they were raised believing that they had solid claims to the throne.

I think I better understand the scene where Gregory accuses his father of wanting to marry his wife. It’s to show how poisonous the atmosphere at court is, that even Cromwell’s own son could be poisoned against him. A bit of foreshadowing.

I had to look up what happened to all the major characters excepting Henry VIII, Mary Tudor, and Catherine Howard (since we all know what happened to them) after Cromwell's execution in 1540.

Gregory Cromwell, Thomas's only son, did not get his father's last title of earl of essex, but still survived his father's downfall and was made Baron Cromwell. he became a wealthy landowner and died in in 1551.

Rafe Sadler unwisely helped Lady Jane Grey ascend to the throne for nine days after the death of Henry's son edward VI. he had to retire to the countryside after her arrest and the ascent of Mary Tudor, but he was restored to political good graces with the accession of Elizabeth I. He became involved in international intrigues involving her court, and died in 1580.

The Duke of Norfolk fell from Henry VIII's favor in 1546, and was imprisoned for high treason and stripped of his dukedom. After Henry's death in 1548, he was restored to favor by Mary I, whose accession he helped engineer. He died in 1554, his dukedom restored.

Stephen Gardiner fell out of favor starting with the marriage of Henry VIII to his last queen, Catherine Parr. Gardiner tried to get her arrested for heresy and failed; he was left out of the power structure of the court of Edward VI when Edward succeeded his father. However, he was retsored to power under Mary I, and even crowned her at her coronation. It still is a great question as to whether he was involved in the persecution of Protestants during her reign. He died in 1555.

Richard Rich participated in the prosecution of Bishop Gardiner under Edward VI and abetted the bad treatment of Mary I under her brother's reign. but Mary bore Rich no ill will, and he prospered under reign and under the early reign of her sister, Elizabeth I. He died in 1567, and his family was one of the wealthiest and most ennobled in all of England for the next three centuries.

No one seems to know what happened to Wolsey's illegitimate daughter Dorothy after the Dissolution of the Monasteries, when Cromwell awarded he1r a pension.

Thomas Wriothesley became the executor of Henry VIII's will, which made him Earl of Southampton. He was appointed part of the Regency council of Edward VI, Henry's son, but fell out of favor from it. he was making a political comeback when he died in 1550.

The episode showed Cromwell reminiscing about bucolic, bee-keeping Launde Abbey. His son was able to live there—possibly his marriage to Henry’s late wife’s sister worked in his favor— until his death ten years later. You can visit it today, they have regular retreats.

Henry VIII, while far more wily, smart and effective than Trump, is another example of a POS living far longer than anybody wishes for.

Life and death ain't fair.

His leg stank!

R123, as far as I can tell, Henry VII was a very competent king; he avoided unnecessary wars and kept the kingdom solvent. People liked Henry VIII because he seemed kingly when he was young (he was good-looking and outgoing, he enjoyed hunting and jousting). He was, of course, very destructive; he murdered many people, dragged the country into pointless wars and wasted incredible sums of money.

R123 Thanks to this show, I had H8 in my mind throughout Pope Francis' funeral weekend. I imagined him shouting, "BISHOP OF ROME!" at everyone saying, "Pope." In general I felt a great deal of Schadenfreude that here we are 500 years later and not only do we still have Popes, but millions are mourning a good Pope. Suck it, Henry Tudor!

[Quote] It’s also funny how “diversity” always only means black people and never Asian, Hispanic etc.

It’s not really “funny” because it’s meant to remedy a situation in which black people are seen as subhuman.

Henry VIII did not want to destroy the Pope; he just wanted England to remain out of the pope's control. As of 2025, it still is. Suck it, Vatican.

And the end result: the head of the Church of England is a dying alcoholic with sausage fingers who can’t communicate with his own children properly.

You forgot to mention that he could not even marry the Queen in a church.

A Scottish church was OK—

Mary Stuart having the last laugh over all of England…

The two interrogation scenes of Cromwell at the Tower were gripping television, especially just watching everyone's eyes dart from one to another. I do wish the show had made overt mention that Thomas Wriothesley was a former protege of Stephen Gardiner and was acting as Gardiner's spy in the Cromwell entourage (possibly or largely unbeknownst to Cromwell) and Henry's court while Gardiner was either bishoping in Winchester or in France as the English ambassador. (It may have been mentioned in the first series, I don't remember.) You could figure it out by the glances between Gardiner and Call-Me and the latter's increasingly shameful looks at Cromwell.

Even though this series left out much of the book (for time and financial reasons), it was still excellent and will be missed. Surely, Mark Rylance gets an Emmy nomination for this, possibly Damian Lewis, too, and the production teams.

Henry VIII was a serial killer.

Subvert was too hard for r132

There was a bit of dialogue about Wriothesley’s being a spy in the household. I don’t remember it exactly, but Cromwell knew.

R135, it's very easy to figure that out from the interrogation scenes even without more background.

I have to say that what is clear is that if you were an aristocrat you could survive anything. No matter what you had done, you'd do a stretch in the Tower or in exile and then get your Dukedom back. No real harm done. But if you were lowborn? No. You had no security. You were not one of them.

[quote] I have to say that what is clear is that if you were an aristocrat you could survive anything. No matter what you had done, you'd do a stretch in the Tower or in exile and then get your Dukedom back.

That's absolutely not clear.

Henry VIII had the following aristocrats executed, among others:

Edmund de la Pole, 3rd Duke of Suffolk

George Boleyn, Viscount Rochford

Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham

Thomas Fiennes, 9th Baron Dacre

Thomas FitzGerald, 10th Earl of Kildare

Henry Courtenay, 1st Marquess of Exeter

Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey

Jane Boleyn, Viscountess Rocheford

Leonard Grey, 1st Viscount Grane

Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury

Not to mention two beheaded Queens.

Nobles, not aristocrats.

What’s the difference?