Did JFK Jr go through the plane propeller?

As I recall, all the bodies were found intact, still strapped in their seats.

R1 Wrong!

Why did he have to die?

It was sad because he was hot

Beauty is tragedy.

All three bodies were found strapped to their seats and basically intact. The plane however was upside down given more weight to the theory of spacial disorientation. They all died from impact of the crash per the autopsies.

Three Funerals and a Wedding

Which drunken hausfrau dri you hear tgt from, OP? You mother's cousin's aunt's neighbor's friend?

Wasn't his body found bloated & unrecognizable?

You’re thinking of Bridget Fonda, r9

You spend 3-4 days as a corpse submerged in salt water and we'll see how pretty you look.

They were cremated at Mayflower Cemetery in Duxbury, Mass.

The prop would have stopped almost immediately when the plane crashed into the water nose first.

One of the divers who recoverd his body said JFK Jr was still strapped in his seat but his knees were embedded in the control panel (they had to be cut off) his upper torso was snapped 180 degrees backward as his spine was severed at the waist. His left arm was floating in the water current as if waving. So he wasn't thrown into propeller. But after three days being nibbled on by the fishes bellissimo John-John probaby looked like....

It's sad how so many iconic liberal died in the 90s. What if he and Princess Di had grown up to be old to influence public consensus in Trump's America. They were so charismatic and just likeable. Just special.

iconic liberals*

Was JFK, Jr., an iconic liberal? His father - in life at least - was no favorite of the liberal wing of his party, an element he was known to disdain. What evidence do we have that his son was himself a liberal?

What's that you say, r17? Are you just repeating MAGA talking points?

I read that instead of being thrown through the windshield, the windshield went through him.

So we don't believe a certain professor in the Northeast is actually JFK JR?

JFK jr was exceptionally good-looking with a very strong physical presence, but I don’t recall any evidence that his charisma went beyond that.

What r21 said.

I was watching the DNC when he appeared to introduce his uncle Senator Ted Kennedy. It was rare thing to see JFK's and Jackie's children on a televised event, unless it was tape of the funeral.

I'm not kidding, the word "breathtaking" truly describes seeing him. Even through my TV screen, he was a thing to behold. I can't imagine how stunning he must have looked in person.

And, of course, this can't be minimized. Not that he himself wanted it or nurtured it, but seeing him either in person or on TV, you saw him through the lens of all the historical presence of his parents. Hundreds of times, from those meeting him, his ears must've heard a variation on the same words: "Your father inspired me...".

Through all of that, however, I'm convinced that JFK, Jr. himself, personality-wise, wasn't Mr. Excitement.

Eagerly, I tuned in to watch DL fave Larry King interview him. I had to admit the truth of my reaction- JFK, Jr was absent an air of exciting presence, charisma. Indeed, his remarkable face, hair and historical aura took him far, but he was dull.

I'm convinced that if they still were alive, CBK would've, long ago, and out of being bored out of her mind, divorced him and by now, be on her 3rd or so billionaire.

[Quote] His left arm was floating in the water current as if waving.

What do you mean “as if?” I’m friendly. People come to visit me, I wave.

I saw him once on the street, R22. “Breathtaking” is exactly the right word. A friend of a friend once rode an elevator with him and said she was overwhelmed by his presence. He was very handsome but not so perfect that he veered into pretty, very masculine. Combine that with his fantastic body, height, and thick head of wavy hair - he was an exceptional physical specimen.

I’m sure the effect wore off, if he was boring as we suspect, but he was SPECTACULAR.

Jon Jon had a huge cock!

R24, I also suspect he was a very decent person despite his immense privilege. Beyond her obvious flaws, that is all Jackie’s doing; not the Kennedys. Given the total package, I think I could have dealt with a little boring.

No MAGAt here, R18. I take a back seat to no one in my loathing for all things Trump. And I loved JFK & RFK. I grew up with a framed photo of JFK in my childhood bedroom & had two framed photos of RFK in my professional office. But while RFK became a leading voice of liberalism after his brother’s assassination, JFK was always known to be critical of liberals in his party. It’s why he was so distrusted by them in the run up to the ‘60 nomination. Civil rights leaders were most unhappy with him until June 1963. At his death, the Saturday Evening Post, in its memorial edition, described JFK as the most conservative Democratic president since Grover Cleveland.

JFK Jr's charisma might have stemmed from his ability to make strangers feel special when they interacted with him. When a global superstar like him focuses his attention on you, you can't help but feel special. Good manners, taught to him by his mother, made everyone he met feel that "specialness."

I wonder if the guy is still on here who crashed his bike into him in the park and they had a nice chat and exchanged numbers, but he lost the piece of paper John John wrote his on.

That’s a great point about manners, R28.

We all float down here.

It used to be that the Kennedy men drowned their women one at a time. JFK Jr upped the game.

R31!!!!!

I read that his body was bent unnaturally backwards. They all died upon impact.

Glad my generation had some bellissimo kind inspirational figures. Made ya happy just to know they were around. These days just hateful gargoyles as ugly on outside as in.

OP = RFK Jr jonesing for some roadkill meat.

r2 is an idiot

R31, The Bessette sisters did not drown. And besides MJK, your wittiness is also supposed to refer to?

I think OP is the same person who was obsessing over plane crash victims and how their bodies were torn apart, blah blah blah.

He's had work.

Propeller or no propeller, if you hit the water in a small plane at high speed & then spend a few days in the ocean your family is not going to be looking at an open casket. You don’t need to make it more morbid than it is.

His body was found.

He existed. He manifested. He took up space.

[quote]As I recall, all the bodies were found intact, still strapped in their seats.

That's what I recall reading as well.

Being human is interesting. We are capable of making machines that travel so fast (and sometimes, ascend to such heights or descend to such depths) that if they suddenly stop, and/or drop, our bodies will be obliterated.

Elevators

Automobiles

Aircraft

Submarines

And we just get in them! I mean, what could go wrong, amirite?

Yes, Della, as I've oft-posted, my late sister, an absolute stunner herself, met JFK, Jr., at the '96 Democratic convention, & was less than impressed by the man beyond his great looks. There was no "there" there was her takeaway.

He thought himself limitless, but his arrogance wove their fate.

They met the great ocean’s embrace, sacred offering to the tides, no longer bound to flesh, but flowing with the eternal current, one with the infinite sea of light and being.🌅🌈🙏🏼

[quote]Glad my generation had some bellissimo kind inspirational figures. Made ya happy just to know they were around. These days just hateful gargoyles as ugly on outside as in.

Fun at parties.

R45 Imagine you are a superstar. Everywhere you go people stare, and everyone you meet has great expectations. 99% of the time no problem. And then there's this one time you can't bring the shine to a personal conversation and you're found to be boring. No one ever claimed John was a genius but his social skills made up for it. He had dyslexia and probably ADHD. There's a a book about him, "Come to the Edge," by one of his ex-girlfriends (the one Jackie liked), which paints him as adorable but with a scary need to take dangerous risks.

R48, on the other hand, as I usually note with the story, my sister also met Kevin Costner at the DNC. And although he was never someone who was particularly on her radar, she was bowled over by his presence.

R48 I read that book. He greatly endangered the life of author Christina Haag once when ocean kayaking.

John-John was an adrenaline junkie with boundless self confidence but limited skills. What could go wrong?

Well I sat by him twice and had no personal interaction with him but I was bowled over by his physical beauty and aura.

I think when you're a small boy and your father is murdered and it becomes the most famous murder in the history of the world picked over dissected written about talked about openly publicly in the media for your entire life and you're a male in the most famous male political family dynasty of the century I think it's going to short circuit your brain in some way. He was trying to make do in the best way possible facing impossible odds on a collision course with a fatal destiny those of his father his uncles and his aunt and a desire to bring others with him. Incredibly arrogant selfish dim and doomed.

He was a guest a few times at a hotel I worked at in the ‘90s. He was gorgeous and had great manners, was kind to the staff. CBK was standoffish and he usually did all of the talking. He had a smattering of charisma, not as much as Bill Clinton, but of course he was dreamier than Bill.

^ And I guess a Kennedy kid wouldn’t need to develop as much charisma as a no-name from Arkansas.

R53 again. Even the straight guys who worked at the hotel preferred JFK Jr. to tall blonde CBK.

With his looks, pedigree and above all that iconic photo on his third birthday, he could have written his own ticket in US politics.

R18 The problem is JFK was a phony. No real commitment to anthing unless it got him a vote. He was a Kennedy, and Kennedy’s only want money power and privilege. They want to be worshipped.

It is true. But fortunately they recovered most of the chopped-up remains and fed them to his cousin RFK, Jr.'s pet hawks, so they went to good use.

R52 MARY !

HE'S STILL ALIVE AND TRUMP'S BRINGIN' HIM BACK AS VICE PRESIDENT!!!!

[quote]He had a smattering of charisma

Good Lord and oh, dear.

I saw JFK Jr. on the street in NY on three occasions in the mid/late 90s and he looked exactly the same in person. Even if he hadn't been famous and had just been some anonymous guy he still would've turned heads and stopped people in their tracks.

R50, Yeah he did, in a collapsible kayak no less. And then there were the romantic times, like when she introduced him to the island where he ended up getting married . . . to another woman. I wonder if Carolyn knew about that. Anyway she was lucky in that she lived to tell the tale of her time with the doomed American Prince.

I wiuld like to add my tidbit to this conversation, to suggest that he might have been 'curious?'

Carolyn Bessette was a cunt who did him dirty.

R57 is a stupid Republican ninny with bad punctuation.

It was what's her face's fault. She was probably being annoying on the plane and caused the crash.

He could be reckless on that blasted bicycle of his ("pedestrians be damned" attitude much like today's NYC food delivery guys). That's all I'm saying.

RIP

Well, R65, JFK, Jr., more than got back at her.

[quote] Three Funerals and a Wedding

R7 is Carole Radziwill.

R57, you confused Kennedy with Nixon.

Kennedy did hem and haw regarding civil rights legislation because he was afraid of alienating white voters and politicians. LBJ, though he was a douchebag, did push it through because he knew that it was time for a change.

Was JFK Jr attracted to shemales?

R64 there were rumors he might've done some experimenting at Brown but Johnny loved pussy. Toward the end Carolyn was withholding sex from him. Can you imagine withholding sex from JFK Jr?

Did JFK Jr appear in Dallas yet?

I had a clients "Maga-deluded father" go to Dallas and wait for JFK Jr. to show up.

[quote] Kennedy did hem and haw regarding civil rights legislation because he was afraid of alienating white voters and politicians.

I get it. Kennedy - who, along with his brother, opposed the March on Washington - owed his 1960 election to what was still the mostly Solid (segregationist) South.

That book on JFK Jr. also includes a story about how, when he was a very young man, he took a boat out somewhere -- I guess on Martha's Vineyard? -- just as a storm was approaching, and didn't return for many hours. The rest of the family were pretty sure he was dead.

R52, I never quite put it together, but yes, perhaps the murders of his father and uncle, not to mention other tragedies in his family, somehow contributed to JFK Jr.'s risk-taking.

I bet his cock and balls smelled WONDERFUL!

Anyone care to contrast and compare JFK and Richard Nixon, as candidates and as Presidents?

I'll wait.

R76 is typical Kennedy-hater: A half-truth-teller.

Re JFK:

Bobby:

[quote] [R76] is typical Kennedy-hater: A half-truth-teller.

Ha. You could not be more wrong. At 68, I've been a lifelong Kennedyphile. Considering how he got elected, his, yes, belated, even begrudging, support for Civil Rights is deserving of its own chapter in Profiles in Courage.

[quote] my sister also met Kevin Costner at the DNC. And although he was never someone who was particularly on her radar, she was bowled over by his presence.

He probably wanted to have sex with her and he turned on the charm.

On another "point" by r76:

JFK as a candidate had no power to effect change in the segregationist South.

That he tried to move forward on desegregation as President, including his legacy via Civil Rights acts passed by LBJ, hurt him and all future Democratic candidates in the South, which deflections were capitalized on by Nixon's "Southern Strategy."

R81 Kennedy knew he would lose support of the Democrats in the southern states if he pushed for civil rights before his reelection in 1964. He was playing the long game. And he was right. After LBJ got the Civil Right Act and the Right To Vote acts passed, the southern Democrats overwhelmingly became Republicans.

I don't know that we disagree as much as you seem to think we do, R84.

Yes, JFK would likely have not been as effective as LBJ in getting both bills pass. LBJ knew who to wheel and deal and twist arms in congress.

JFK Jr was a republican, and voted republican. This is according to RoseMarie Terenzio, his assistant, or secretary, or whomever.

The one that worked for him for a few months and decided to write books about him and CBK like they were all besties.

[quote] LBJ knew who to wheel and deal and twist arms in congress.

And it didn't hurt that he was a Southerner.

R57’s statement “Kennedy’s only want money power and privilege. They want to be worshipped.” more clearly describes the current WH occupant.

Kennedys

Jackie was his judgement . When she died it was only a matter of time.

R90

Prisspots

I heard that as they were boarding the plane, Carolyn told John that he smelled bad and needed a shower, and he told her it was no problem and he'd just

R90 and 91, that was a quote, not my punctuation. I suppose I should have inserted “(sic)” ?9

I did jury duty with JFK Jr a few weeks before he died. He hobbled around on crutches and was so dreamy nobody could take their eyes off of him. We were on two smaller [italic]voir dire[/italic] panels and he answered the questions just like the rest of us when called upon. Remember, JFK Jr had done time as an ADA at the very start of his career once he finally passed the NY Bar, so it is highly unlikely he was chosen to be on any jury, but NYC had done away with nearly all of the reasons one could be automatically excused from jury duty.

I also served with former Mayor Giuliani once. He just sat in the big jury room with everyone.

Look. Just apply basic physics. The velocity of the small plane plunging into the ocean, smashing against the ocean floor. THe pressure of it. I suspect the nose of the plane pancaked, and yeah, he wasstrapped in his seat, but he was also probably sort of crushed?

R87, I don’t know who the hell this assistant is, but JFKJr was a Dem through and through.

He was a Republican? That would probably have been news to him.

Thanks, r98. I love(d) the sound of his voice.

He could be president now if he'd wanted to be.

I remember how The Right insisted Hillary and Bill sabotaged his plane because she wanted to run for Senate and JFK, Jr. was going to run and he would have won. Another Conspiracy Theory. Of course it was bullshit.

R100, I love how the right-wing nutjobs think Hillary is some kind of omnipotent mafia boss.

This should probably be another thread but I never really understood their initial beef with her. Was it because she's smart? The baking cookies thing? Or are they just misogynists and their antipathy toward Bill was magnified onto her?

Not sure about JFK Jr but RFK Jr could use going through the plane propeller.

I voted for Hillary, R101, but she didn’t help herself with a wide swath of voters when, in her Today interview with Matt Lauer, she blamed the (true) allegation that Bill had had an affair with a White House intern on a “vast right ring conspiracy.”

Car wash cunt Cheryl Hines can go through the propeller too R102.

R100 The right wing congress was being manipulated by extreme ideologues like Gingrich who felt a scorched earth approach was the best way to gain and retain power. And one way was to demonize the opposition and have them under never ending investigations on minor or non-existing issues. Both Bill & Hillary were very smart and they wanted them diminished and hog-tied.

Both JFK and Jackie’s body were never found.

It goes way back to the fact that Bill Clinton was an anti Vietnam War protester, and Hillary's work with Marian Wright Edelman on desegregating elementary schools, as well as what she did as a young attorney, Hillary served as a staff person on the Watergate Committee, that sent people to prison and forced Nixon out. They were pegged as "radicals" long ago. Gringrich came to prominence in the 90's because he won in a gerrymandered district in GA. He partnered with Frank Luntz to give us the Contract on America. (They said it was FOR America.) Rush Limbaugh was God back t hen. The hate mongers were just getting started and Gingrich and Luntz played a key role. Clinton outsmarted Gingrich when he shut down the government over the debt ceiling/budget debate...I thought those times were crazy.

Newt Gingrich is one of the most loathsome piece of shit politicians the US has ever had.

It'll be a good day when Newticles finally dies.

It was probably all those do or die family football games on the lawns of the compound that made him reckless.

Once you've successfully knocked over a couple of dozen cousins you think you can do anything.

He lived with Christiane Amanpour, of all unlikely chicks, in Providence. She wasn't even a Brown student. I wonder if they were FWB. She was pretty and intelligent. She was born into a posh Iranian family that fled with the Revolution.

He didn't have an instrument rating, he was an arrogant dumb ass. He was flying in weather that required instruments and he only knew how to fly using visual landmarks. My sister was a corporate pilot and she said his Piper plane was much too complicated and powerful for such an inexperienced pilot. If I recall he had less than 40 hours flying it and most of that was with an instructor.

Can you imagine the conversations being had while he’s trying to save them? A lot of screaming, blaming and pleading I bet.

It's likely they had no idea that they were descending and didn't know what was happening.

You’d be sort cognizant that the plane is doing a nose dive and barrel rolls.

His wife pressured him I thought. He was supposed to leave earlier, and she was running late. Getting her nails done? And she persuaded him to take her sister along so they could land and drop her off somewhere on Martha's Vineyard, then they were going to Cape Cod to Hyannis for the wedding? I remember when they found the plane Teddy Kennedy had to go out there on a boat to retrieve and identify the bodies. That had to be awful. JFK would have been OK if they'd left earlier and he'd had daylight to guide him. But it got dark very quickly and he had spacial displacement. Now will someone please explain to me how the fuck that can happen without you, the pilot realizing it? If you take off, and you're flying wouldn't you notice you were going out to sea instead closer to shore? Wouldn't you realize that you might be flying upside down? WTF.

Carolyn shares at least half the blame for purposely getting nails done and something else done last minute instead of getting to the agreed upon time. The other half of course goes to John for not taking the pilot along with him since he was only partially trained on instruments flying and the plane was still relatively new to him.

^ The very definition of bothsidesism.

That's because neither one took the flight seriously enough. If Carolyn got to the airport on time as planned, they would have gotten to their destination before dusk and the instrument flying would not have been necessary. And if John had taken on that pilot's offer to fly with them, he would have taken the control if there was a visibility problem or at least helped guide John on the steps to take.

I've read that Jackie made him promise not to get his pilot's license, because so many Kennedys had been involved in plane crashes. He learned to fly after her death. None of that lot ever listened to Jackie.

They even had the option of leaving early the next morning. They weren't flying across the country. They were going up to Martha's Vineyard and the Cape. They had plenty of time to get to the wedding and drop off her sister, which was an add on. Funnily enough, Carolyn's sister got to the airport on time and she and John were waiting for the very late Carolyn.

John should have left with her sister and told Carolyn to take the bus. It's a four hour bus ride.

Carolyn would rather have died than take a four-hour bus ride.

Oh my grossness OP, don't even think such a thing.

He relied more on his visuals than the instruments. Big mistake.

A more experienced pilot offered to copilot but he said said no.

wash up on shore.

The marriage was estranged and she was blowing the model dude. I seem to remember. And she was debating not going and then decided to go because she didn't want to totally destroy her rep with his family. I think she was aiming to divorce him soon. I seem to remember. And were they even living together at that point?

John had unofficially moved out and was staying someplace else at the time. She was always coked up and was cheating on him with Michael Bergen. Word is that they argued all the time and he that he wanted a child but she did not, at least not any time soon. Things were up in the air on which way their relationship was going. I think the wedding weekend was an opportunity to spend time together and find some common ground. There's no way to know how things would have ended up if the crash hadn't happened. My own guess is that they would have divorced.

R129 I agree.

Ego can kill you. Should have had the copilot fly with him.

Oh, and just that morning he just had a cast removed from his foot. He had broken it a few weeks ago in a hang-gliding accident.

I think the option of an experienced pilot to fly with him was not longer available as they left much later than planned.

My understanding from a newspaper article published shortly after they found the bodies is that they interviewed a pilot who said he offered to go with him because it was almost sundown but he declined.

My Aunt called my mother who was recovering from Knee surgery the next morning and she practically screamed over the phone. "John John's plane is missing. Their searching around Cape Cod. it's the ocean! He's probably dead! I just know it. They will never find it."

I don't want to imagine that glorious hunk of manhood all mangled on the seabed, swimming with the fishes.

The Piper Saratoga was equipped with a less-sophisticated "autoland" system than is available today but JFK Jr. could've activated the system which would at least provided two-axis control for pitch and roll. It also had an electric pitch trim system, which provided autotrim during autopilot operation and manual electric trim for the pilot during manual operation.

The AFCS installed on the accident airplane had an altitude hold mode that, when selected, allowed the airplane to maintain the altitude that it had when the altitude hold was selected.

Dude fucked up.

I'm sure he was also in panic mode which doesn't help one think clearly. Being proficient in instrument flying also allows one to control the plane in a methodological manner.

I wonder if he was distracted because he was arguing or chattering with his wife and his sister in law.

It can happen so quickly. This was from a guy flying with a friend in the same situation: "During the flight on a clear moonless night at 7500 feet I looked over at the instruments and saw we were in a 45 degree left bank. There was no sensation that we were in a bank. I asked why we were in a 45 degree bank and got no answer or action. Then airspeed picked up and we entered a spiral. After pointing this out there was still no action he froze in disbelief I suspect. “OK power back, level the wings, recover from the dive, back to our heading and altitude” I said. He complied as ATC was yelling at us. No doubt in my mind they would have died"

One of my cousin's college friends was one of the Navy divers who found the wreckage about 8 miles off the coast of MV. A few years later, he had told a group of us (at my cousin's wedding, where he was a little buzzed at the time) about that day they recovered the bodies, as the conversation inevitably turned to that. (IIRC it was three or four days after the crash). As far as the three victims, he politely said 'what was left of them was unrecognizable' (think 'Shark Week'). Those on the rescue team were not allowed to talk to the media, and the Kennedys worked with the Navy (under the Clinton administration) in issuing a more 'positive' press release.

There are a lot of things floating out there...

Wasn't he still wearing a "foot boot"?

Please R15. They were both dumb as dirt.

After graduating with a law degree, he failed the bar three times. Caroline passed it on her first effort.

He failed the bad twice, not three times, R145.

Please - if he passed the bar on his first or second time, everyone would've said his mommy 'paid off the NY bar' to make him pass. Everyone knows that - the media was ready to write those stories (I think Barbara Walters was first to bring that to everyone's attention when he died).

R147 Walters shows her TRUE cuntiness if she said that. If JFK Jr passed the bar on his first time, people would have said "congratulations John" and moved on to a new topic. I wouldn't have thought he cheated. I would have thought he prepared exceedingly well. John wasn't academic or high IQ but on the other hand, he had private tutoring through all his education, and a lot of it. Someone like that can pass a test.

In his defense, the NYS Bar, at least then, was known to be one of the more difficult state bars to pass.

More suspicious is failing it twice and then passing. The two fails would suggest he wasn't up to the task. So what miracle happened that he managed to pass it? Perhaps that was when it was bought for him.

[quote]In his defense, the NYS Bar, at least then, was known to be one of the more difficult state bars to pass.

True. A lot of lawyers got admitted in other states and then used reciprocity to get into NY.

[quote]The two fails would suggest he wasn't up to the task. So what miracle happened that he managed to pass it?

Jackie found the best tutor she could get, plus he knew he had to pass this one.

I know two lawyer friends who both failed the NY bar the first time. One passed on second try, and the other on the third try. I think about 1/3 of those who take the exam don't make it the first try.

R148 is Rose Nylund...so gullible and naïve. Thoughts and prayers go out to her.

R150 - Two fails and a win for the NYC bar is much more common than you realize.

"Six times was the charm."

It was reported (after his death) that he was dyslexic and refused any special accomodations that he would have been entitled to regaridng the bar exam because he didn't want anyone to know.

R135's Auntie is Sonja Morgan

NO ONE CALLED HIM JOHN-JOHN, SONJA!

I thought that claim had been debunked long ago, R157.

R156 Proof, please. Otherwise it didn't happen.

It was reported at the time that he DID get special accommodations - a private room to take the exam. But it was spun as a way of protecting the other test-takers, so they wouldn’t be subjected to all the hubbub around him. Which is a bullshit excuse, because it’s not like the paparazzi could get into the test taking facility (which might have been the Javits Center). But who knows if any of it was true?

He might have been boring and not particularly intelligent, but he was hot and apparently not an asshole*. So, overall, ahead of most people.

If he has a private room, he could have also gotten extra time without anyone knowing.

Crazy family. They're always skiing into trees and driving cars off bridges and crashing planes and killing women.

[quote]—*Except for killing his wife and her sister, but not on purpose.

How do we know it wasn't on purpose?

JFK: We wouldn't be late if you hadn't spent so long getting your goddamn nails done. You know I'm not supposed to fly at night! Mommy would be furious!

CBK: Just fly the plane dickhead.

JFK: [puts blinker on] Hey, aren't we supposed to make a left here?

'Except for killing his wife and her sister, but not on purpose.'

He was so indifferent, so careless, so arrogant, that he might as well have.

[quote]I remember when they found the plane Teddy Kennedy had to go out there on a boat to retrieve and identify the bodies. That had to be awful.

Meh. He was used to it.

Yeah Ted kind of knew about dead bodies in water at that point.

They were estranged. He was living in a hotel fucking old flame mummy clone Judy Baker the nite before. Her sister had to strong arm Carolyn to going on this flight. Sister went along as referee.The tension with that bitch in that tiny plane coupled with John-Johns ADHD and vicodin. Mirical they made it to 7 minutes from landing on the Vineyard. "Fairytail Interupted" my arse.

[quote]Mirical they made it to 7 minutes from landing on the Vineyard.

Oh dear!

Julie, not Judy, Baker, R166.

R167 oh oh dear!

At the time it happened, I remember the news reporting it was CBK’s sister who was the one delayed at work.

And so people went on a brief hate tirade against working women because of course they did.

I’ll say that, if he did indeed pass the bar on his own (third time or not), and without help, he must have been fairly bright. I always felt that, being very handsome, charming and a Kennedy, he didn’t have to work as hard, but his smarts were good. His parents both were exceptionally smart.

Just randomly looking at the NYT's archives, I came upon a July 2, 1966 front page story reporting that the then-5-year old JFK, Jr., was treated the previous afternoon for first- & second-degree burns suffered when he fell into the coals of a dying cookout fire on Hawaii Island. "The boy was burned on the right hand and forearm and buttocks." After receiving emergency treatment by a doctor who said the injury was "significant to be concerned about but I prefer you don't use the word 'serious[,]'" he was "carried onto a ... plane by his mother and flown to Honolulu, where he received further treatment."

[quote] A member of the group with the Kennedy family said John was pulling at a sleeping bag when he tripped and fell backwards into the still-hot coals of the fire, which had been built for a hot dog roast last night.

Maureen Callahan wrote an excellent new Kennedy book called “ask not: the Kennedys and the women they destroyed”. It is like an encyclopedia of women they killed or maimed in some way.

The Kennedy men not only get killed they kill women. Joe was a monster and Rose was always dithering with her rosary beads damning anyone who wasn't a Roman Catholic to hell. Including her poor daughter who was beloved by everyone else. A very fucked up woman. Her husband could be noisily fucking a woman in the next room but the important thing was that he attended mass.

I am an Irish American Catholic, and it is absolutely disgusting how so many Catholics will excuse almost anything (except homosexuality) as long as you go to mass. My partner’s parents are terrible terrible people and were cruel and negligent parents who kicked him out for good age 16. And they get uppity that he hasn’t gone to mass. Oh and of course they are uneducated major Trumpers.

According to Maureen Callahan, whose book was massively fact checked to avoid huge Kennedy lawyers, Carolyn’s body was not intact….it was cut off at the waist by the seat belt. Besides how exactly they died, consider how the Kennedys radically fucked over the traumatized Bessette family regarding funerals and burials and all the pressure they Kennedys put on the family which had lost two daughters (one of a pair of identical twins, which is extra devastating for the surviving twin). The Kennedys never had the class to admit that they were at all ashamed that their relative as the pilot bore a hundred percent of the blame for killing two women.

You know how the Kennedys all sided behind jfk jr regarding the crash and blamed the passengers? My family would never support me in a million years if I had been the pilot. My family would be the first to blame me, to cut off contact, to testify against me. Who here has families that have that kind of insane Kennedy family loyalty? You hear about serial killers whose parents attend their trial. If I got a fucking speeding ticket, my family would not support me at all.

Was his Willy intact?

JFK Jr. didn’t want to be a lawyer. He wanted to be an actor, which apparently mortified Jackie as she considered it “unsuitable” even though she had a huge interest in the arts.

I thought Jackie liked Darryl Hannah?

R103 that was such an interesting event, she was ridiculed mostly for being so dramatic. She claimed was a vast right wing conspiracy to discredit her and her husband, which she was correct about. The right couldn’t find any real problems with the Clintons’ real estate dealings so they used whatever power they could to dig into and corner him in a lie about Lewinsky.

Getting a blow job from an intern in the Whitehouse has nothing to do with criminal real estate activities. But therthe folks working to discredit the Clintons got their pound of flesh.

{quote] She claimed was a vast right wing conspiracy to discredit her and her husband, which she was correct about.

No doubt there was a vast right ring conspiracy to hang her husband on something, but she blamed this cabal specifically for the allegation that he had had an affair with a White House intern. Truth is a defense.

R159 "Proof, please. Otherwise it didn't happen."

This isn't how reality works

r176 Did they find her lower half? What did JFK Jr look like?

It's true that JFK Jr. wanted to act more than anything. If he were around today and a young man, it wouldn't be an issue but 40-plus years ago it was a different world. People from "good families" i.e. prestigious and socially prominent, didn't go into certain professions that were deemed beneath their standing. There was much more of a separation of high class vs. low class back then. Today those boundaries are pretty much nonexistent, but it was still a thing back then.

R14 I found an hour-long interview with Joshua D. Benjamin, one of the divers who recovered the remains of the three bodies. The video edit puts the part about the recovery right at the beginning. The rest of the interview is about his reflections on 25-year career as a Navy diver.

John Jr as an actor would make a 2x4 look like Brando. One of the most painful things I can ever imagine would be to sit through a performance of his. His mother also tried to keep him from starting that magazine. And we saw how that turned out. She also did not allow him to fly while she was alive. Boy did she ever know her son. I can't imagine what he would have done with any real interest, deep commitment and success.

Didn't Caroline begin that relation with that Calvin Klein model while they were married after she found out what a bore John Jr. was in bed? Probably like his father a wham bam thank you ma'am kind of guy. Incapable of making love.

R169 needs to be shot.

No. He was in his seat, totally bent backwards.

r189 I can't visualise that. Like he was snapped in half?