Taylor Swift is as big as the Beatles in the 60s or Michael Jackson in the 80s

Nobody is even close to that famous anymore. There’s no shared monoculture driven by mass media anymore. The Beatles and Michael Jackson didn’t have bot networks fluffing their numbers. Eminem and Britney Spears in the 90s were more famous than anybody is now. To compare here to MJ, Elvis, The Beatles is just insulting.

R1 oh dear, her*

As popular as MJ but her songs aren’t very memorable.Ditto for the Beatles and again her songs just won’t have any longevity.

Oops..not as popular as the Beatles. Also her fans are almost all little girls and mommies.

If that’s true, that shows you the state of the world. She’s terribly mediocre.

Her audience is mostly suburban white women. If you’re not around them, then you’re not really exposed to her music. Aside from her tabloid craze last year she’s pretty escapable.

Madonna was inescapable in the 80s. She was in tabloids, on TV, and on the radio. Madonna marathons were always on MTV throughout the 80s and 90s and even the radios in the 80s would have Madonna marathons where they’d play Madonna all night.

Michael Jackson was barely around.

No way, OP. Especially not The Beatles. You should know better.

Madonna was and is bigger, but Taylor demolishes all other peers of hers.

Agree with r1, all the bots, paid shills, fluffing of numbers, the media pushing certain people relentlessly can't be compared to the organic and much tougher atmosphere that existed especially from the 60s to the early 90s.

She wouldn't have a chance had she come up in the 80s.

But, I'll give her her due. She's killing it. Had Madonna loved doing long, stadium tours she'd still be heads and tails above Taylor in touring. But she loathed stadiums and most of her tours were short while not playing the hits.

Nah. Her songs aren't iconic enough. In fact, most of her songs are forgotten compared to the albums and the tours.

The Beatles and Michael Jackson were talented. What's Swift got? Nothing special.

When she is in public she attracts thousands of onlookers who gather to gawk at her. The same way Michael Jackson did.

I took my niece to a Taylor Swift concert--It did feel like being part of major musical movement--like when the Beatles and MJ were at their heights.

Movement implies a cultural or at least artistic shift. I’m just not seeing/feeling it. It’s terrifically frustrating. I’m part of this culture. What aren’t I doing to be so divorced from the magic of these people? It all seems so insular. You’ve got to somehow pay to be a part of this club. This was not the case with the earth shaking emergence of Elvis, the Beatles, Michael or Madonna. They SHARED themselves. They didn’t rent exposure.

None of it is organic. R12- yes! Nothing compares to their emergence. It was tectonic. It changed the trajectory of music, culture, fashion in an organic way Taylor has not.

But she's infinitely more boring and safer and less willing to push music forward. Or fashion. Or anything.

Where are the fun bands, where are the punks and art rock groups and folk music people and underground experimental dance music.

Where did all that go? Taylor Swift is a frozen low fat yoghurt in human form.

I think her current level of fame has something to do with outlasting Gaga, Rihanna and Katy Perry. Taylor Swift is the last 2000s pop star standing and that makes be a big deal by default.

I know those three other women haven't officially retired but they're over.

[Quote]You’ve got to somehow pay to be a part of this club

Yes. You have to consume Swift. You have to purchase Swift content, stream Swift docs, book Swift experience packages. Collect Swift tokens to access the next level of Swift consumption.

If Madonna had gone safer, she'd have gone even bigger. She alienated a lot of her teen music buying fan base by first making more mature music like Live To Tell, then going uber sexual which middle America was like nope, we're off this train. It's amazing she stayed a big seller. Same with Mariah- once she went all slutty a lot of her teen fans abandoned ship.

R15 it still exists, you have to look for it. maybe you'd like geordie greep.

Wouldn't it be cool if she could dance, sing more than 4 notes or was even remotely interesting? She reminds me of a Dept. store mannequin.

R20 Yeah but that’s who her fans are too, that’s why they connect to her. She’s unapologetically white, straight, female, and plain. And that’s why they all love her.

Why? She's not even approaching mediocre. How standards have collapsed.

Madonna stopped playing the hits on tour because of her feud with Warner. She parted ways with them since ’07, and both have been feuding up until ‘22. She didn’t want them to get any royalties from her playing music she made under them so she kept the hits to a bare minimum. They fucked her by not setting up her streaming power, nor did she want them to touch her songs, so her streaming never had a chance. This is the company which made Prince go nuts so..

Her celebrity is bigger than her music. She doesn't have a single song as ubiquitous as Billie Jean

Listen, she’s mastered the commercial aspects.

But boy, her songs to this not-youngster’s ears are kind of mediocre. I mean, many of us recall when Beat It launched. Or Like a Prayer. These were big, big songs. Other than Shake it Off…

I appreciate that she’s unleashed such passion. There has to be something to do. Maybe the lyrics speak to something.

But no one do I view her

I Did Something Bad is a good song. Listen to Cynthia Erivo and Idena Menzel sing it. Swift has gotten credit for her songwriting.

Doesn't the NYT usually say this about Beyonce?

The NY Times is so far up Beyonce's ass, I usually stop reading the story. On the other hand they denigrate Taylor Swift and express surprise at how popular she is. The only favorable reporting is when Swift endorsed Kamala Harris.

I feel like Lady Gaga was the last pop girlie who really made memorable tunes. Does Tay Tay have anything nearly iconic as Poker Face or Paparazzi? Even some of Katy Perry’s hits will end up being more memorable than Taylor’s catalogue imo. I’ll remember how Teenage Dream and Firework go on my deathbed but I doubt I’ll remember Cruel Summer or any other bland ass Taylor Swift song.

R29 Katy Perry has song that shit on Lady Fuckface. Roar and Dark Horse for starters. California Girls is another.

Surprised there’s so much pushback on this. It would seem that by any measure, Swift is a megastar to rival any to come before her. I find the Eras tour kind of lame, but it was undoubtedly a global phenomenon.

OR Madonna in the 80s OR Brittney in the 90s OR Beyonce in the 00s OR....

Get it?

R7, it's absolutely wild to me how few shows Madonna had for the Blonde Ambition Tour and that was her peak (same for Who's That Girl). Blonde Ambition didn't even make the top 10 tours of 1990 despite being massively successful. It only had 57 shows versus Rhythm Nation's 130 or so.

R31 Comparing Swift to entertainers from DECADES ago requires considering the evolution of technology, and its impact on pop culture.

So...the comparison isn't really "fair," is it?

Streaming is BS. It counts twice- towards album and single sales, and singles count towards album sales. They never did that before. Are they going to add all of Madonna's physical single sales to her album sales, many of which cost almost as much as the album? Or Janet's? Or Celine's? Or..

Madonna hated long tours. Her longest was 88 shows. Most huge tours have well over 100 shows. She played nothing but stadiums for Who's That Girl, yet only played 30 + shows. And she'd only tour in the summer.

There’s no way Madonna made $405 million on 80 shows with her biggest tour. Not back then. Now? Yes. It’s easier with touring being huge right now. I’ve never seen touring so lucrative as I have the last 3 years. Everyone is making a killing. She had to have done more, or did she charge a shit ton for merch and that’s why?

R36, from what I remember (I could be wrong), Madonna really became a huge touring act with the Reinvention and Confessions Tour. The former was her first tour to be the biggest of the year and the latter even set the record for highest grossing tour per concert in the Guiness Book of World Records.

Her songs are mostly inoffensive "there's no there there" pop tunes

There's there there in any given Beatles track

R4, so we’re The Beatles when they were at their height.

[quote] There's there there in any given Beatles track

In the songs by Ringo? No.

[quote] so we’re The Beatles when they were at their height.

The Beatles image and audience grew and shifted in a rapid amount of time. It's been almost 20 years since Taylor debuted and she still has the same audience.

[quote] In the songs by Ringo? No.

Good Night is more melodic than anything Taylor has released.

Madonna in the 80s was more famous than she was popular. She was one of the biggest selling acts, but to most people she was just the punch line to Joan Rivers - How Big of a Whore Is She? jokes.

[quote] Madonna was and is bigger, but Taylor demolishes all other peers of hers.

In numbers, perhaps, but not in cultural relevance. In that regard, she is the complete opposite of Madonna. And she has not distinguished herself from her peers.

R43 Wrong! Madonna was hugely popular. How can you even make that statement which is fucking ridiculous?

Agree with r1. I believe Michael Jackson was the apex of fame, as far as modern times are concerned.

You fuckers were goddamn lucky to experience MJ, Madonna, and Prince all within 3 years so fuck you. I’m stuck with Taylor being our..apex. Taylor. Swift.

50s- Elvis 60s-Beatles 80s-MJ, Madonna, Prince 10s- 😭

Have you guys heard or listened to the YouTube broadcast that has the young guys, one of them always wears a green shirt and has blonde hair? They talk about music mostly. Well, they were discussing with some older guys what it was like to experience, Michael Jackson, Madonna, and Prince all in one decade. Well, the people they were talking to were telling them how phenomenal it was to experience Michael Jackson in 1983 Prince in 1984 and Madonna in 1985. One of the top two biggest male entertainers of all time and the number one female entertainer of all time within two years. They then showed them a couple of billboard charts from 1984/5 I think and it was filled with Michael Jackson Madonna Prince Bruce Springsteen Tina Turner, Aretha Franklin, David Bowie, and other huge stars. It was just insane. The young guys were flipping out. They were saying how competitive the charts were during the mid 80s. So they then said that once statistic that jumped out at them was that Madonna had had her second single or her third single go to top five and then she had top five singles for the next 17 songs she released. They were gobsmacked, because they said even songs that were huge barely went top 20. They were really funny.

[quote] You fuckers were goddamn lucky to experience MJ, Madonna, and Prince all within 3 years so fuck you.

We were lucky and we knew it then.

R37 Madonna's tours were always huge, but she never toured many dates. Her 2001 tour started her off as a touring machine again after her earlier tours being huge, but short. From what I remember she said long tours were too much on her body,and she had kids and a husband. Guy really fucked her over in more ways than the divorce settlement.

R47 Yes, when it's presented so starkly, those who witnessed their rise and the hysteria were very lucky. JFC, those 3 back to back to back. Seeing a woman finally breaking through so thoroughly and dominating a very male, misogynistic field must've been exiting. A lot don't understand women were successful before Madonna, but no one created that amount of mania and competed with the boys, and beat them, before. Thoroughly beat them. After Madonna, the industry quickly signed tons of female artists, or many simply started breaking through because of her so many don't understand how unusual her dominance was.

Correct, Taylor hasn't truly established herself as a all that culturally change making. Nor musically I would argue. She has a machine behind her that not even MJ had, and he had a huge machine supporting him. Not so much for others, except Beyonce whose machine rivals Taylor's. We know neither Madonna nor Prince, for example, had a huge machine behind them because WBR was a terrible record company. They never properly pushed Prince, or even Madonna. They allowed them to be portrayed negatively in the media without PR pushback. Think Whitney. Her record company was all in on selling her false goody two shoes persona.

Being an artist that changes culture is extremely rare. The last example would be the Beatles who helped shape the culture.

MJ and Madonna were very popular and successful, but they were only an identfiable part of the culture, they didn't shift it to something else. As mentioned in an above thread, the 80s were crowded with a group of equally successful artists, so no one will ever be able to stand out that much in the culture ever again as much as the Beatles. Our interests are too divided. As many people who were fans of Madonna in the 80s, lots of other people were fans of other artists.

[quote] Being an artist that changes culture is extremely rare. The last example would be the Beatles who helped shape the culture.

Nirvana?

Eminem was the last great icon.

If were discussing culture-changing artists, we can't forget Nirvana.

Cobain owns the 90s and changed fashion, music (duh) and even made it cool to be a little different, a little weird and even a little gay.

Madonna absolutely changed culture- more female, more accepting of gays, more accepting of string strong sexual women. Male rockers were far more sexual and profane, but accepted and celebrated.

Nirvana did, but I'd argue it was not on the level of Elvis, Beatles, MJ, or Madonna. Plus, male critics and radio were always so biased towards male rock acts they drove a lot of enthusiasm. This is also why Madonna was so important- females before her were fucked over by the male oriented music world. They'd never seen someone like Madonna who was going to be as successful as men DESPITE them.

My cooter is still itchy, y’all!

R57 = Madonna

I am not a Madonna fan but I totally agree with R57. I was born in 1980 so I missed her debut, but she was still THE pop star my entire life. I'm R56 so rock and indie were my musical preferences, but you simply could not get away from Madonna.

I don't get how people say MJ changed culture (he did), but Madonna did not (she very much did too). I always thought of them as the parents of pop superstardom. Even if Prince and Tina were better artists.

Also, my older sister used to dress like her. Knew every word to every song. As did all her friends.

And even I loved Ray of Light - especially because it hit just as I was sneaking in to gay clubs at the time.

R1 I disagree. Taylor is not as big as them but she is pretty damn close. Beyoncé too. And Eminem and Britney in the 90s are not bigger than Tay and Bey now. Their audience was limited to teens. We have a shared culture, we just don’t consume media all the same way. We don’t buy records anymore so people are consuming media from these artists in various different ways. Some buying their albums, some streaming, some buying the clothes they wear, the causes they push.

r48 back in the 1980s the culture was a lot more monolithic, in terms of how it was consumed. EVERYONE listened to the radio back then, especially Top 40 radio in the early-mid 80s. It was the primary way to consume music, there were no MP3s, Spotify, it was years before digital downloadable music. People still bought vinyl records or cassettes. MTV was in its peak heyday, and cable TV (which was still young and only just getting into the majority of US homes by 1983/84) had far fewer channels than it does now. Everyone under 25 watched videos on MTV, either daily or at least weekly.

This enabled development and growth of iconic artists with a strong visual component, such as MJ, Prince and Madonna. Springsteen and Bowie were already huge, since the 70s; but had an even bigger boost in popularity due to a couple of iconic albums (Let's Dance and BintUSA) coupled with their photogenic looks and video presence.