Wishing you a Marvelous Midwestern Christmas

Previously, on Marvelous Midwestern Towns:

I'll be waiting for Santa to bring me the the Pendulous One to dangle something down my chimney. That would truly make it a fabulous holiday.

Thanks for starting the new thread.

You’re all shameless whores and hussies!!

I bet Helen bossed these hussies around and told them to act right, this is HER CHRISTMAS SONG, and no cheap tramp like Colleen ZenK is going to ruin it by acting sexy.

Aunt Lez, I mean Liz, the only pendulous thing you're craving are Cecile's tittays...

Cecile….the grinch that stole Christmas, indeed.

I was reading an old gossip thread on another site.

I had no idea that Peter and Courtney Simon might have had other spouses/partners before they met, hooked up and married

AND

Also, apparently, Peter Simon had pretty visible VPL in some of his SFT scenes and he was known to be nicely packing.

*clutches pearls*

Kudos OP, for finally putting an appropriate photo to highlight these threads.

Rachel looks good!

Tune in to The Locher Room next week to see if spread her leggs Zenk can be sober for once.

R4 I love CZ and her work but it does make me chuckle to think of vinegary ole Helen chastising Colleen and other hussies for their immoral behaviors.

You know Mary Stuart was over at Search doing the same. She hated any female star of SFT that wasn't her!

Meanwhile, at TGL, Charita alternated between not giving a shit and giving dead-on reads.

"A slut like you? Hang it up, honey."

Damn, Charita had exquisite timing! If only she'd been able to do a bit more comedy in real time on the show.

Helen Wagner could suck a hard candy like no one else! Vinegar wouldn’t melt.

One of daytime's biggest mysteries is why these two never got the peer respect they deserved when it came to awards. I wonder if they just canceled each other out or if there was some other reason.

Neither one of them did a ton of press or actively campaigned for awards, r15. They both saw soaps as a job that paid the bills.

And their acting was a lot more subtle than some of the hambones that won a slew of Emmys-they weren’t over the top , braying cows like Zimmer or Slezak.

R15 It's true. Especially in Bev's case - she really deserved recognition. I always suspected her departure was in some small part due to the snub she'd had at the Emmys the year before. Not that she generally cared, but she was fried and wanted it to be done and when she didn't get that recognition, she said fuck it.

Same with Lisa Brown.

r17 I completely agree. The Emmy snob in 1992 was certainly a contributing factor into Bev deciding to walk from GL.

Likewise Kate Collins' Emmy snub in 1992 was likely a contributing factor in her leaving AMC as Natalie.

It was fun seeing Stephen Schnetzer on Days this week playing Julie's brother, Steven Olson who came back to support his sister as she dealt with her husband Doug's death.

Days was Schnetzer's first soap role. He played the part 1978-80.

Show even did a couple of flashbacks to 45-year-old scenes of Steven and Doug. Schnetzer looked so young (he was 30 at the time) that I barely recognized him.

We all watch multiple shows.

The actors, who nominate actors for DT Emmys do not.

The simply don't.

One of the soap mags, In Depth, I think. used to ask actors who on another show did you like this year? Most of the Y&R actors would say Heather Tom as Katie on B&B. They only knew her because she'd been on Y&R.

The old ballot practically came with Lucci's name already filled out on it.

Actors used to have to vote for five actors and no more than two from their own show.

They'd vote for themselves, a co-star and then three actors from other shows on their network. It's why DAYS didn't get nods for years. There were only one or two shows on the network after a certain point.

ABC had their act together; Y&R was another show that had their Emmy act together. In 1998, Shemar, Kristoff, and Le Blanc were all in supporting; somehow, Shemar slipped through and won.

Bev was a cunt! Always over worked. Boo hoo hoo. Sorry bitch. At most you worked 100 days a year. My heart bleeds.

Jill Farren Phelps always pushed to get Emmys for her actors, but those two didn’t get nominated under her tenures at GL and AW. Bev had strong scenes for an Emmy reel when Alex humiliated Roger at the Country Club, in particular.

That said, Kathy Hays and Marie Masters both deserved Emmys for their work on ATWT during the Marland years, and they weren’t even nominated.

Come on. Those cunts did NOT deserve Emmys! Kathryn Hays? For what? Running her hand through her hair?

Hays was brillant in the Doug Cummings story.

When he poured his heart out to her, she said, 'Honey, get over it.'

I would have given the 1987 DT Emmy for Lead Actress to both Hubbard and Hays, a tie. But...there was no stopping Zimmer.

The Soap Opera (Digest) Awards nominated Hubbard, Hays, Masters, and McKinsey in, I think, 91 or 92. All the P&G votes split, resulting in Lucci, Grahn, and someone else...I think Lucci won.

It's too bad there's no fan base award anymore. Soap editors knew how to cut through the DT Emmy B.S. and give people their due.

I think Beverlee's amazing scenes at the country club - which would have won her the Emmy, had justice prevailed - were at the tail end of Bob Calhoun's time as EP. JFP was a big advocate of "block voting" - I forget the specifics of it, but basically the company of actors got behind a few candidates.

But not sure if the the timing was off for that, or if somehow JFP didn't want to put any effort behind a Beverlee nom.

GL hadn't won any competitive acting awards for most of the first decade of the Emmys' existence - Judi Evans was the first - but JFP certainly got nominations for her cast in the years she was at GL, and the cast was frequently nominated after that up to the very end.

The show did win Best Show during one of Marland's years as HW and I believe that was the Nola/Kelly story, but shamefully Lisa herself did not get a nom - the acting categories in those years were pretty much locked down by GH and AMC.

There was no stopping Kim Zimmer because quite frankly she’s a better actress than Hays, McKinsey, Hubbard ever were.

Anyway.....

If only P&G had figured out a way for their product placement to be THIS funny and natural.

Oh no....look who got the Deven Green treatment!

No one will ever doubt that Colleen can spread her legs!

I can just imagine Helen barging into Colleen’s dressing room in full overbearing Nancy Hughes mode, when she discovered that Nancy and Mark Pinter were fucking behind her husband’s back, to confront her.

[quote]I can just imagine Helen barging into Colleen’s dressing room in full overbearing Nancy Hughes mode, when she discovered that Nancy and Mark Pinter were fucking behind her husband’s back, to confront her.

when she discovered that COLLEEN and Mark Pinter were fucking

LOL sorry Nance

Don’t forget that spread ‘em Colleen was fucking Hugo Napier while she was married to Mr. Crouch, or couch. That woman got around!!!! Spread them legggggss!

It was the 70s; Colleen was young and very pretty.

r26, HUGE Zimmer fan here but I know who I'd vote for if it came between Kim dealing with her obsessive stalker and aftermath, protecting Frannie, and Zimmer belting out as a flapper "How Come You Do Me Like You Do Do Do."

1986 was NOT GL's finest.

Victoria Wyndham fascinates me

Who out cunted the cuntiest cunt whoever cunted? Vicky or Beverlee?

Still my mom r38.

I mean, Mark Pinter was a hot piece of ass. Tall, handsome, hairy and I am guessing serious sizemeat. Those eyes + that voice would have been on my knees in no time.

But I'm sure a guy like that has always had pass around peen.

*I would have been on my knees in no time

[quote] Victoria Wyndham fascinates me

She and Bev were both one of a kind.

[quote]Mark Pinter was a hot piece of ass.

I was mesmerized by Pinter on GL. I was just coming out at that point and was drooling every time he was on screen. I couldn't take my eyes off him. He had a hairy chest and did shirtless scenes often.

By the time he got to AW as Grant a decade later, he really didn't do much for me. Whatever he had had that was so enchanting was gone.

Colleen sucked the life out of him r43.

The dresser at GL really knew how to show his assets. He always had tight flat front pants and VPL.

His GL character was more exciting than his ATWT one, and while he was OK as Grant on AW he was not really fun as a villain.

Bev’s 1992 work was such quality and it was only elevated because GL was so fucking good then. The show was on fire hitting on all cylinders. The acting was phenomenal.

Ugh, Lucci being nominated at all pisses me off much less all those years. What a joke.

GL not getting much recognition despite its quality in the early Emmy years is a joke.

Judi’s win as Beth was a bit of a shocker to the industry, she deserved it IMO because some of her scenes were so raw they’re uncomfortable. She is seen as a fluke win, but she portrayed a wide range of emotions deftly. She showed strength, fear, vulnerability, terror, love, anger sometimes all in one scene. Her later work as Beth wasn’t as strong, but I think thats because of the behind the scenes bullying her lover was doing.

Speaking of Beth, Saint Nick coming to see the 4 musketeers every year was special. The year Beth “died” didn’t he slyly hint she wasn’t dead? We all knew she wasn’t, thanks to Alan buying a body to trick Phillip.

the writers laid the groundwork for Beth to someday come back.

Bernau had Alan react perfectly Christmas 86 when she was mentioned; by the time she came back in 1989, we were dying for it to happen.

Was Judi irreplaceable?

I think Beth Chamberlin is pretty great in the part; the writing in her return in 1997 was awful.

I think Judi was up against FIVE ABC actresses; the votes split; she stood out for many reasons.

Judi Evans ‡ Guiding Light Beth Raines Loanne Bishop General Hospital Rose Kelly Christine Ebersole One Life to Live Maxie McDermont Eileen Herlie All My Children Myrtle Fargate Lois Kibbee The Edge of Night Geraldine Whitney Saxon Marcy Walker All My Children Liza Colby

It is a riot watching Judi Evans as Bonnie on DOOL - so NOT Beth Raines

UG

that was supposed to be all space out (above)

those supporting actress nods in 1984 were a clear indicator that ABC had a lock on those nominations.

No one from AW or DAYS or ATWT or Y&R? Search?

In 1983, Y&R won Best Show, DAYS was nominated for Best Show, and Howard Rollins was nominated for Supporting Actor for AW.

Every other winner/nominee for the major soap categories came from ABC shows.

Judi left Days and went back to NYC in 1990. Would she have been willing to reprise her role as Beth if they waited a little longer to bring her back?

Judi deserved that Emmy. There’s a reason why Beth was extremely popular. Irreplaceable? I think chemistry wise, maybe. Beth Chamberlin was very much like Judi in her first run. However, the writing was shockingly dull for Beth given Pam Long created and wrote for her return. They dressed Beth hideously, too.

What was Alan’s reaction? I’d love to see it on YouTube.

Yes, we all knew Beth was alive. Pam wrote a fantastic return story and the attention to detail was superb!

I would have loved if Judi returned to GL after DOOL... why did she leave DOOL?

Beth was so hippy and crunchy when they brought her back with Neil

I still will never in 99 million years understand how GL dropped the ball on Beth and Nick (not St Nick) never crossing paths. They missed each other by months in ‘91 AND in ‘97. MONTHS! They could have easily brought Chamberlin back when Lillian was going through breast cancer and have her run into Nick. The explosive story, seeing how Nick and Mindy were hot, would have been out of this world. Muskateer vs Muskateer. What would Alex had done seeing as Beth was like a daughter to her?

R55 Even worse, Nick left town and Phillip returned within a week of each other. They couldn't have had two scenes with them getting acquainted?

I’m surprised Curlee didn’t propose a Beth/Nick reunion. She was a writer for GL during the Beth/Lujack days.

The only thing I can think of as to why they didn’t bring Beth back when Lillian had breast cancer was because Grant wasn’t coming back, and they didn’t want to go there with a Beth/Nick story at that time. They may have thought about trying it later when Grant was able to return. Then he went to AMC and fucked up that potential story if that is what they were thinking. Honestly, it’s the only thing that makes sense- they were saving a Beth/Nick story for later when Grant could return. Alas, when he could, Vincent wanted out.

Judi’s Emmy win shocked the establishment good. ABC soaps voted as a block because there’s no way GL, ATWT, AW, SFT, YR didn’t deserve some acting nods. GL and ATWT were in another league acting wise. Once Judi broke through it seemed the CBS soaps especially started getting a lot of acting noms, and wins.

I never got nominated for nothin’.

Ain’t that a kick in the cunt!

I keep seeing OPs photo and channeling a Kristen Wiig character.

There was no denying Zimmer’s 1985 win. That scene blew away any competition she might have had. She would have broke through had Judi not.

I suspect the original long term plan for 1991 was to bring back Vince as Lujack and reignite the Phillip-Beth-Lujack triangle.

However, in late 1990, both of Grant's parents died within weeks of each other and he asked to be written out, saying he needed time to grieve their deaths. This threw a wrench into the plans for a triangle, so show decided to marry Phillip and Beth in a grand wedding and then send them away to Arizona to live happily ever after. Or at least until the story needed them back on the canvas.

But it was a major oversight for Beth not to return for Lillian's breast cancer storyline. The Beth we all knew and loved would never have let Lillian go through that alone.

If show had wanted to do the triangle, then they should have sent Phillip off to prison for faking his death. Then Beth would have been in town for Lillian's breast cancer and could have reunited with Lujack upon Vince's return to the show. After that, Phillip could have been released from prison and returned to Springfield to be part of the triangle.

Except, they weren't sure they could get Grant back once they agreed to release him, which is how they ended up with the story we saw onscreen where Beth and Phillip never met Nick McHenry.

R61 which scene of Zimmer's do u mean?

That makes so much sense about ABC voting as a block. Granted, it was the #1 network, but the stories and acting were comedic.

R53 go to 2:40

Alex talks about Beth "wherever she is"

Alan's look was a reminder he faked her death so Phillip would move on

This was Grants first or second show back and it was like he never left

R65 Thank you so so much!

R61 THE scene!

R62 That makes a lot of sense. Vincent has always been cagey about whether they truly wanted Lujack back when he returned. I swore he said it was briefly mentioned, but then (whomever) said no, he was dead and they had no intention of bringing him back which is bizarre. That 1991 would have been blockbuster stuff. They could have married Beth and Phillip, but sent him off anyway. Then let the rest of that wonderful story play out. I think they said Beth “couldn’t “ visit as she was on parole, too, correct? Ugh. It infuriates me to think of the missed opportunities especially when Nick was languishing they could have brought Beth back THEN! Hell, maybe they could have tried to lure Judi back, but that might have been when she was having weight issues.

I'd heard that once Beth C came on as Beth Raines that the network wanted Vincent back, as Lujack.

For whatever reason, it didn't happen until a year and a half later, and by then GL had different writers and a different EP, and they created Nick and the story behind Nick.

Nick was initially meant for Harley, and Mindy was, if I remember correctly, supposed to have a fling with Mallet and then eventually hook up with Hart after the end of her affair with Roger. But that obviously changed.

Was reading the Wendy Wasserstein bio and who appears but....Ellen Parker!

There's no reason they couldn't have brought back Lujack after Nick McHenry was introduced. Vince could have done double duty and likely won any Emmy for it.

David Canary, Anne Heche and Ellen Wheeler certainly did.

[quote]Honestly, it’s the only thing that makes sense- they were saving a Beth/Nick story for later when Grant could return. Alas, when he could, Vincent wanted out.

Did Vince want out or did the show let him go in 1996?

I know Vince was unhappy with his life and going through a personal crisis -- this is when he found God. But did he want out? If he needed time off, the show could have written him out for 3 to 6 months and then brought him back.

[quote]Was reading the Wendy Wasserstein bio and who appears but....Ellen Parker!

The PBS production of "Uncommon Women and Others" was my first exposure to Ellen Parker when they rebroadcast it at some point in the 80s (I tuned in because of Meryl, Swoosie and Jill Eikenberry).

Ah, the ATWT-loving trollerina is awake and posting again. Great.

Vincent wanted out. He said he took his character as far as he could and the writer changes didn’t help. Megan MvTavish was HW during some of this, also acted and wrote on GL when Lujack and Beth were on. She should’ve pitched the idea of bringing Beth back then. He would have likely stayed.

Of course they should have broughtback Lujack. It’s ridiculous they never did. Absolutely ridiculous.

The photos in the Kindle version are small but still, I didn't recognize Ellen at first on the far left, along with (gasp) La Streep.

The mention was that another actress, Caroline Aaron, had played the role and then was recast with Parker. Wasserstein had written it with Parker in mind, apparently, but told Aaron she loved her portrayal, as well.

The last year of Nick's story on GL sucked. He was stuck with boring Susan. The Alex/Nick/Mindy story fell apart when 2/3rds of that dynamic was recast, and Barbara Crampton was way too old for the role.

Nick was also competing with Alan-Michael for story and they were essentially both the same color on the canvas, so to speak. (Sadly, GL lost both around the same time.)

Interesting find on YT.....an episode of Search posted by the guy who played the singer, plus a few moments of GL after it. (Diane Ballard, you hussy!)

Nick really had nothing to do of substance after the Mindy thing fell apart. It's perplexing how they didn't write Beth in at that time.

I forgot Blake wanted her daddy Roger to kill Beth at one point. That's very dark.

Poor Eunice.

[quote] Nick really had nothing to do of substance after the Mindy thing fell apart. It's perplexing how they didn't write Beth in at that time.

Susan, bless her heart, was the cure to insomnia.

GL had three total saps - Samantha Marler, Eve Guthrie, and Susan - who were all about as exciting as a wet fart.

Hillary Edson was like the human form of Ambien. I hated her on AW , too, as Stacey Winthrop, with that lame Beauty and the Beast knockoff storyline.

Then they paired her with self-righteous Michael Hudson.

It's hard to believe that Y&R didn't win a single acting Emmy in its first 12 years on the year. They finally took home two in 1985 when Beth Maitland and Tracey Bregman won for Supporting Actress and Younger Actress, respectively.

[quote]Nick really had nothing to do of substance after the Mindy thing fell apart.

The Mindy thing fell apart because Barbara Crampton was so completely wrong for the role. According to Barbara's Locher Room interview, when Ann Hamilton didn't work in the role, JFP called offering the role, never requiring an audition or a screen test.

Of course, Vince got involved with Barbara briefly, as he had also done with Kimberly Simms and Ann Hamilton. When their real-life relationship feel apart, you could really feel it in their performances.

Once separated, both characters started floundering and soon were written out,.

Why didn’t they try to get Simms back, she wasn’t doing anything. Or did JFP burn that bridge?

R84 I think they did, lowballed her, and wanted her to sign longer than she wanted. Fucking idiots. Seriously. After Ann didn’t work out, they should have moved heaven and Earth to get Simms back. But alas, they were idiots.

Samantha Marler-JFC what a fucking waste of time and space. GL had some wonderful characters and actors, yet also had some huge, gargantuan duds they should have cut far sooner than they did. Sonia Satra was one of them. Betty Rae found some stinkers, too. Many, in fact. Eve, too. I liked Susan.

Again, bringing back Beth at this time was screaming to happen. So many duds on the show that had it not been for Brent/Marion, the show would have been cancelled. That kept enough of us riveted to our seats.

I’m not sure when I think would have been the perfect time to bring on a Nick/Beth story:

1991- the show was excellent and this would have set the show on fire (in a good way). But, Nick and Mindy were hot hot hot and needed time. The potential with Simms’ Mindy vs Beth is very tempting, plus Bev was still on the show. This could’ve been so huge, In this timeline, I would preferred it be Nick, not Lujack because Nick and Mindy were hot, and Lujack would never go for her over Beth.

Mid-90s- Nick was floundering. Perfect time to bring back his twin, bring back Beth, bring back Simms, then eventually Phillip.

Late 90s- Phillip is with Harley. Beth comes for him. He rejects her. Then BAM Lujack is alive, Phillip is jealous. Harley is jealous.

Hmmmm, for the show, they weren’t needed in 1991 since the show was so good already. But after that, the show needed this.

I think Betty Rea had a nearly stellar track record.

I agree wholeheartedly that Barbara Cramption was miscast as Mindy.

I always thought Hilary Edson was very beautiful, and I didn’t hate the character of Eve, but I agree that Eve wasn’t very dynamic.

I disagree about Samantha Marler… I loved Suzy Cote and the character. I remember that there was a TV Guide on the casting of the character before she appeared onscreen. (I also remember wondering how Samantha’s severe asthma had been cured.)

Susan was one of those characters devoid of much dimension. I don’t like characters like that — where we’re basically being told we have to like her.

[quote]I disagree about Samantha Marler… I loved Suzy Cote and the character.

I did too. Lucky Suzy, getting to work with Morgan Englund. I ran into him one afternoon in Chelsea, and he could not have been more friendly. He saw that I recognized him, and stopped to talk to me. I was very new to soap operas at the time, and I thought moving to a town and running into your birth parents was such an amazing coincidence.

I also remember Dylan moving into his own apartment and one day he was stocking his cabinets with P&G products. Coast soap, Pert shampoo, probably some deodorant.

Suzy Cote didn’t have the riz as the kids say. She was dull as dirt. She didn’t have the look of a soap actor.

Betty was a rock star, no doubt, and may not have had a hand in every single part.

I thought Susan was beautiful, and I think she had presence. But after the Brent/Marian story ended, GL was in a bit of a funk for a time.

Vinnie Irizarry sure got alot of pussy! He slept with all the females, except Maureen Garrett.

I also liked the Samantha Marler character. I liked Suzy Cote in the role. Show never really did anything with her aside from pairing her with Dylan. If that pairing didn't work, out they could have paired her with someone else, maybe Alan- Michael. Sorry the show try to do more with her. She had lots of potential.

Eve Guthrie character was poorly conceived, merely as a foil in the Nick-Mindy romance. After that they never really tried to do anything with her. The pairing wiht Ed was just lazy writing. Rather than bring Rita back or pair Ed with Holly, show just threw Ed with Eve. If show wanted to be really daring, they should have paired Ed and Lillian.

The Susan Bates character. YAWN.

R75 That’s Ellen Parker? Bless her heart. She was a homely thing, wasn’t she.

Ed and Lillian would've made a lot of sense.

Vincent never slept with Judi, correct?

Vincent was a ho bag. I wonder if he banged Frances Fisher.

I don't blame Peter Simon for leaving the show several times. Until Ed's reunion with Holly at the very end, they really had no idea what to do with Ed after Maureen died.

I think it might have been interesting for Ed and Vanessa to have a relationship - that was very honest about both of their faults. There's a great scene with them that always made me wonder "what if." I think this was Millee Taggart's time as HW....perhaps the last really great "old" GL era before the end. (I say that with a lot of respect for Jill Lorie Hurst and the end of the show, too.)

Not that anyone will care, but I just never warmed up to Peter Simon's Ed. He just never read as Ed to me. When I was a little kid, he was on SFT, and that's probably why I couldn't see him as Ed. But I can't think of anyone else in that age range who could have played Ed at the time. Maybe Stephen Bolster, who played Ted Clark on AW.

GL should have brought Robert Gentry back as Ed in 1981, he left AW at that time. He was a lot sexier than Simon.

Was Simon ever sexy?

There's obviously a lot of obvious things GL could have easily done which would have made the canvas so much richer and provided better story opportunities. However, that doesn't mean the writing would have been there. Look what they did to beloved Saint Beth! Who would've seen that coming?

I don't think a sexier Ed was the answer, but an an who could play Ed's layers. Druken, dad hating, wife beating, perfect brother having Ed was just as dark as Roger, which made their rivalry more interesting and nuanced.

Gentry played Ed during the heyday of the Ed/Leslie/Mike triangle, when he was a darker character.

His characters on AW, AMC and Generations were complicated, especially Ross Chandler.

I never felt that Simon’s Ed was a credible threat to Roger or Alan.

r94

and He was my 1st Ed so he was always my Ed

Merry Christmas to everyone here on the DL

R100-is that you Bert Bauer? Nancy Hughes would have added the clause “except those tramps Barbara Ryan and Emma Snyder” to that sentence.

This is Rachel. Merry Christmas.

Ada would have added "Wishing you a kick in the cunt for Christmas!"

And then snapped you with her dishtowel.

Alexandra Spaulding would have said that she’s too exhausted from working too hard to give holiday greetings.

I get that, r104.

After realizing the mistake the show made by killing off Maureen, I never understood why they didn't bring Ellen Parker back as a Maureen lookalike or Maureen's previously unknown long lost twin sister.

There were two Reardon siblings we never met-Bridget’s dad and a sister (Lana?).

R107 I thought we met Sean Reardon for a hot second. But not for long. We never did see Lana.

OP's picture looks like if Cher and Judith Light had a baby.

Don't talk about Beth Howland like that!

Speaking of Reardon siblings, I would have gladly been the filling in a Jim/Tony sandwich.....

It’s a shame Curlee, or Demorest, or Reilly, or Long never returned to write. I suspect a lot of the things we say GL should or shouldn’t have done was nixed by the network, or other entities. Maybe due to budget, or maybe a particular writer didn’t want to bring on more of another writer’s creations. IDK. I wish someone would write a super dishy complete tell all about what really went on with CBS, P&G, and decisions made that led to the deaths of GL and ATWT.

R112 Oh, for sure. And P&G shows had it twice as bad, they had both the network and P&G to answer to, and from what I've read and heard, it was like dealing with divorced parents who would be at opposite points of view.

I've really wanted there to be a book for GL and a book for ATWT much like the OLTL book, a long "oral history" kind of book. I know someone who wanted to write the GL book.

There's sadly truth in the notion many of the things we wanted to happen on Guiding Light didn't happen due possibly to a writer not wanting to bring back characters they didn't create and/or never wrote for. They like to add their own creations to the canvas with mixed results.

I still wonder how often a writer gets paid, years after the fact, for the use of characters they created.

I think it depends on the contract of the writer.

Most soap magazines/writers have said that shows don't have to continue paying a writer, but there was a legal case not so long ago from an OLTL writer where apparently the show or the network owed him for use of a character he created.

The first Ed Bauer I remember was the chunky guy with the receeding hairline. And back then Holly was a dunb blonde.

Merry Xmas from you know who.

Trollin' trollin' trollin'

R115 That would be a bad move. Soaps are meant to have lasting, legacy characters. There would be little incentive then to bring back old favorites. It would also encourage writers to kill off characters.

I'm sure Aunt Liz will give us all the good holiday gossip from Bay City.

And after Jamie Frame's done cruising all the married men around town, he can fill in the blanks....

R82 it was odd to have five to six slots per acting category back in the 1980s when there were 12 or so shows; now there are those same number of slots with four shows.

So many great actors didn't get a nod and/or a win: Grant Aleksander, Beverlee, Terry Lester, Scott Bryce, Liz Hubbard (as Lucinda), Chis Bernau, Maureen Garrett ... so many.

Plus you had people like Tony Geary, David Canary, Erika Slezak and Kim Zimmer determined to win as many Emmys as possible, blocking out others who also deserve a statue too.

I would limit the number of Emmys for the same role to three. That should satisfy the actor's ego. After that, the actor should withdraw his name from competition and let others win.

R122, I didn't always agree with that but yeah, let others have a chance.

The magazines -- Digest, Weekly, Soap Opera NOW! -- used to do good predictions and wrote up performances. The problem is actors don't watch other shows.

Stafford, who won this year, RAVED about Finola Hughes -- but ask most actors and they have no idea who anyone is. You can't tell me that word didn't get around that McKinsey slayed in those country club scenes but people are only interested in voting for themselves so they can thank "their peers" for honoring their work.

There was a Y&R producer who was very savvy about how to get noms and JFP knew how to play the game too.

Sadly, that's how most people see it -- a game.

All award shows are games. Prince has very few Grammys, yet he's the most talented musician of all time. Then you see those who have like 30+. Oof

Beverlee McKinsey was not well liked. Her ‘I work so hard’ fell flat with her peers. They enjoyed the work and she left 2 soaps because she felt overworked. Mea culpa. She had to work less than 100 days a year. Way overworked.

One of the main reasons soaps don't bring back old favorites is that the old favorite may somehow conflict with the current story in a way that will take too much time to explain on-screen or cause a bunch of retcons that will upset the audience.

Sometimes, old favorites duplicate energy with existing characters.

Sometimes, you can't get the original actor, and they don't want to recast.

But the #1 main reason soaps don't bring back old favorites is that no one knows how to bring them back. Let's use Another World as an example. Wouldn't the Justine story have been much more interesting if Justine had been Pammy, Rachel's long-lost little sister? But by that time, no one knew anything about Somerset or anything on AW before 1995.

These shows don't have historians. Maybe one or two guys on the crew and a few actors have been around for the entire run, but most writing teams and EPs, don't delve any deeper than a few years back.

Pammy R126?

I remember Nancy, but I don’t recall a Pammy?

Was Pammy prior to mid 70s? That’s as far back as my AW memory goes.

Rachel’s father Gerald had another daughter, Pammy. She was only on a couple of episodes of AW-she was a character on Somerset.

Thanks R128

I never saw Gerald or Somerset

Maybe a more recent example is GL and Reva's sister.

Reva already had a sister, Roxie. She would have been easy to recast and bring back in the late 90s, but for some reason, they created a story where Sarah cheated, then, after some confusion as to whether Annie would be said sister, they created Cassie.

I'm sure Zimmer and others knew the history behind Roxie, but for whatever reason, the show/writers wanted to create a new character.

GL had gotten the City and Loving writers James Harmon Brown and Barbara Esensten.

They wanted to work with LW again and created Cassie. She screentested with Zimmer and it was hers to lose.

LW has her fans. She shows up on time, and volunteers for all kinds of publicity. She knows what she's doing.

The fact that she is more of a star than an actress hasn't hampered her ability to find work.

I find that the writing for her IS SO ODD. Carly can do no wrong. She really should never set foot in the Q manse given her treatment of AJ.

Sure, he was a drunk so Carly brought Michael to live with Sonny? Michael ended up getting shot in the head, lost years of his life, killed Claudia and his parents -- the ones who were supposed to protect him, lied -- and so, Michael got shipped off to Pentonville where he got butt fucked.

Carly didn't protect Michael; she endangered him.

Carly apologized to Bobbie for sleeping with Tony when he and Bobbie were married; they actually wrote Bobbie saying 'Oh, Carly, the marriage was OVER before you came to town!"

What an insult that was to the work Jackie did in the story where she walked in on them together.

R131 I'm sure they did want to work with Laura, their little snaggletoothed darling, again.

If rumors are to be believed, Cassie was originally created or at least conceptualized as a dual role for Zimmer. I think GL did not know what it was going to do with that idea in the beginning (once the dual role idea was shot down), and perhaps seriously considered making Annie Dutton Reva's sister.

There were parts of that "Sarah had a baby" story that reminded me of when Dinah was first introduced back in the 80s. I don't think the writers were sure of Dinah's connections at first - or it changed several times with different writers. It may have been that Calla was supposed to be Dinah's mother and Ross her father. There was at least one and maybe two red herring sort of things before it was finally decided Dinah's parents = Vanessa and Ross.

I do, in any case, still wish that at some point, Roxie had been brought back and revisited. Didn't have to be with the original actress.

And oh PS R131 I agree re Carly on GH. I just can't with Carly, Sonny or Jason on that show.

LW could have just played Roxie if they wanted a sister for Reva

R93, thanks for posting that clip! I really liked the Ed and Vanessa romance (short-lived as it was).

My first Ed was Matt Hulswit, and I really liked him. Unpopular opinion, but I also really liked Peter Simon — I felt like he exuded warmth and rationality (most of the time). I had watched Simon in both SFT and ATWT before he appeared in Springfield.

Speaking of historians and bringing back former characters, I thought the character of Ben Warren should have been Ben McFarren.

On the flip side, I hated the final version of Amanda. I didn’t hate the actor or the story, necessarily, but it seemed like such a cheat to pretend she was the Amanda I had watched and loved… why not just make the redux different character?

R135 here again… I also thought that Gus should have been Rita’s son. For years I hoped Rita’s grown up child would appear in Springfield, get Alan and Ed in a room and say something akin to, “Which one of you bastards is my father?”

R93, here's another Ed and Vanessa scene shortly after Maureen died. I think this was Mulcahey's dialogue. he may not have been GH's best hw but he nailed Ed Vanessa here; note the references to Vanessa's days as being selfish and confused. He was writing GL back then, too.

I MISS scenes like this.

And this was BITCH Vanessa at her subtle finest.

Holly brings flowers from Roger (!) to Maureen's burial; Vanessa, determined to protect Ed, asks Holly if the card was signed.

Vanessa takes the card and hides it. "Maureen will know," she informs Holly.

BRILLIANT!

The later Holly/Roger thing was fascinating and a story you couldn't tell today, given their history. I'm not going to bitch about our current times, but soaps were so much more fun when characters could be more human and a lot more messy.

I'm all for messy and human R139, but I did have a problem with Holly sleeping with the man who raped her.

HOW do you feel safe with someone after they've smacked you around.

Interesting to see these ratings

R140 I know rape is rape (not seduction) but I bought into Holly and Roger's reunion. Their attempt to reconcile something that had been a significant scar in both of their lives was believable. Not sensible or wise, but Holly's actions made sense within the history and behavior of that character. And the fact that they both essentially recoiled from what they'd done also made sense....they weren't about to turn into Luke and Laura.

The thing about the whole story from Roger's 1989, though, is in order for Roger's return to be palatable, they made the story a marital rape story, as played out with John Dixon on ATWT. The writers had to essentially forget that Roger also raped Rita and Peggy....and was a serial rapist. Which is probably why Rita never returned to GL.

Was it Pam Long who brought Holly and Roger back in 89?

R143 Yes

R141 What caused GL’s ratings to tumble in the early 70s? It was #1 or #2 from the 50s-60s. It then made a huge recovery starting in the mid-70s.

I think there were a few reasons for that, r145. First, CBS moved GL around on the schedule a few times between 1968 and 1973. Second-it’s time slot competitors at the time were on the rise, ratings wise-Another World, Guiding Light and Days. And all three probably felt more contemporary than GL, which was pretty old fashioned until the Dobsons took over.

It’s THE Guiding Light.

What exactly did the Dobsons do for GL? It must’ve been very good as its position in the ratings vastly improved.

The CBS lineup was seen as so stodgy that they did a promo saying, hey, look at us, we're provocative. Check us out again. NBC and GH came on strong in the 70s, and ATWT barely hung on to the top spot but kept losing share.

I want to blame the organ music, but AW and GH had organ music, and people watched them like crazy. I think P&G was too conservative, and CBS couldn't go buck wild with SFT, GL, and ATWT, their tentpole shows, as they could with the American Home Products shows like LOL, WTHI, LIAMST, and SS.

I would love to see late 60s/early 70s WTHI, LIAMST, and SS, especially WTHI.

The Dobsons really did a lot for GL. Some of their work has been forgotten and eclipsed by Marland and Long. But they updated the stodgy nature of GL and introduced the Spauldings.

R150 Well, it worked as GL lost the perception of being old and more than held its own when its time slot was set in stone. Marland and Long cemented this in a huge way as it was a top 4/ 5 show until 1986.

The Dobsons created characters, and the seeds for storylines, that Marland in particular used to drive story on the show during his tenure.

Rita, the Spauldings, the Marlers, Lucille and Amanda Wexler, and Holly’s rape by Roger were all their creations.

Actually, they did the same thing at GH and ATWT for Marland. The Dobsons created Laura on General Hospital, and Lesley’s obsessive need to protect her daughter. On ATWT, they created James Stenbeck, Craig Montgomery, Dusty Donovan, and Margo, who they paired with Tom Hughes.

I think you make a good point about why Rita couldn't come back, but it would have been great if she did, maybe with a son and a daughter who were just as messy as she was.

Well, Roger was long gone and Michael Zaslow was dead by the time Ricky Paull arrived in Springfield in 2001 as Gus. So, they could have easily made him Rita's son without interfering with any rewrites about Roger's serial rape history.

Is Rachel around here tonight?

I always thought Olivia should have been Rita's daughter.

Given that Olivia was a match for Gus' heart, perhaps they were meant to be brother and sister.

I might have to go visit Miss Rachel!

I think writer ego got in the way of a lot of story potential. GL both greatly benefited and suffered having so many HW changes.

Why did the Dobsons leave?

We know Marland left in a tizzy over Jane Elliott. That was kind of stupid. He had a great thing going.

We know Long left the first time due to having a baby. The second time?

Curlee? GL had a who’s who of great writers in the early 90s, some writing all at the same time. The show was that good then.

The Dobsons immediately went to ATWT after GL (a show they loved writing). I would guess they were sent over to ATWT to do the same modernization they did at GL.

Marland wrote ATWT for 13 weeks in 1979, right after he left GH-I believe the Willows story was his creation.

Pam Long left GL because P&G wouldn’t allow her to add a Jewish core family if I remember correctly.

Dobsons left GL to move to ATWT. They left ATWT to go create Santa Ba4rbara.

Pam Long left GL first time in early 1986 because of her pregnancy leave. When she was ready to return, P&G asked her to HW Search for Tomorrow instead. She was there until Search was cancelled at end of 1986, then brought back to GL in late summer 1987.

Pam left GL second time in early 1991 because of constant network and P&G interference especially about bringing a Jewish family to town.

Curlee left because her contract was up in 1993 and she had recently had a baby.

Marland left GH in 1979 because of conflict with Gloria Monty especially about Luke's rape of Laura. He went to P&G in late 1979, writing ATWT for 13 week. Then at the start of 1980, he moved over to GL where his creation of Nola Reardon began airing within a few days of his start. He stayed until summer 1982 when he left in a huff about EP Alan Potter fired Jane Elliot without consulting with him.

Next, Marland created a short-lived Showtime cable soap called a New Day in Eden, which starred Jane Elliot and a then unknown named Jack Wagner. Susan Flannery was one of the producers. Show only lasted a few months (I think 66 episodes in total) and then was cancelled.

Marland then moved to ABC to help create Loving, which premiered in June 1983. The Agnes Nixon-Doug Marland proved not to be successful, so he help when his two year contract was up and moved to ATWT in late 1985.

Marland created a toilet in his home with Gloria Monty’s picture etched in it. He loved shitting on her. He was a strange man. Ask John Wesley Shipp about Doug’s toes……

Maryland wrote a blurb for the back of Shipp’s album.

[quote]Maryland wrote a blurb for the back of Shipp’s album.

The whole state did?

Imagine if Pam had brought the Weiss family to town and Reva wanted to marry one of them. We would have watched Reva going through a bat mitzvah.

What did Della wear, boys, what did Della wear?

Why did the Dobsons leave? Forced out? Wanted to try something new?

Marland sounds like a head case.

So P&G fucked GL sending Long to the hopeless SFT instead of righting GL, which had been top 4/5/6 and was now sinking in the ratings? Gee, thanks assholes!

[quote]Why did the Dobsons leave? Forced out? Wanted to try something new?

See r160 and r161 above.

They left GL at the end of 1979 because P&G asked them to try their hand at revitalizing ATWT.

They left ATWT in 1983 to create Santa Barbara for NBC.

R168 The first post said “they guessed” they were sent over to revitalize ATWT. And Aunt Liz simply said they left. There wasn’t reasons given, so I wondered if anyone knew a definitive reason. I really did reread their posts to see if I was missing something.

I still laugh at Mary-Ellis Bunim telling hard candy sucking Helen Wagner to take a hike. lololololol

Gloria Monty, I believe, commented that they at GH were frustrated how GL, no matter how well they were doing, stayed strong competition. AW, however, didn't fare so well against two ratings powerhouses.

NBC should have never moved Another World and kept it at 3:00 PM EST. The show was going through a transition, and it may have remained more stable if the time slot hadn't shifted. It would have made for a more competitive 3:00 EST hour, and Texas and then Santa Barbara may have had a stronger chance sandwiched between Days and AW.

When GH came down off their high, I can see how frustrated they were with Guiding Light staying strong. In fact, it beat them briefly in summer of 1984. I'm sure they were a bit concerned they would start losing the time slot since Guiding Light was so close. AW just got hammered between them. Same with Santa Barbara. No room to grow.

I'm a big fan of "Somebody Somewhere" and just saw Jeff Hiller, one of the stars, on Seth Meyers (from October) - he said he appeared as a gay tailor on the last week of Guiding Light!

Wonder if this was for the Billy/Vanessa wedding?

R175 How did that come up?

R175 It's in this clip.

He said he killed both GL and L&O Criminal Intent because he was in one of the final episodes of each.

R176 Thank you! That was hysterical. “That show was on 72 years!”

R176, I’m so glad you posted that! Thanks so much!

Ain’t it funny how once she finally won for Lead Actress, Lucci pretty much stopped getting nominated. I’m not sorry when I say she didn’t deserve those 21 nominations. I’ve always found her acting to be very stereotypical soap acting IOW not great. There were literally dozens of actresses in any given year who were better than her in every way. The most gratifying loss came when everyone thought she’d win in 1998 but Watros deservedly won over her.

I’m sad to see Watros having to do daytime now. She should have had a better career (which was very good until it wasn’t).

Now. Sherry Stringfield is the one who should return to daytime because she and she alone fucked up what was a hot career and would have been a monster career.

I remember meeting a guy at a gay club who said he had contacts in Hollywood. He told us Sherry was leaving ER. None of us believed him. He said her final scenes had already been filmed, she left on her own, everyone was involved in the show were shocked beyond belief, and pissed, but she wanted out. She walked away from tens of millions. Many pointed out she also left Guiding Light at one of its highs with her in a Red hot storyline, left #1 rated NYPD Blue, then was going to leave #1 rated ER? No way.

Way. Very way.

Watros didn’t help her career by being a known drunk.

I enjoyed Sherry but really thought her Blake was somewhat flat, if extremely villanious and fun. I was surprised when she left ER. Either she just didn't like the media attention, didn't want to be famous, or the hours wore her down.

R182 She was on a soap where she was on 4 days a week with insane amounts of dialogue. I don't think we'll ever get a true answer as to why she left ER at the very height of a storyline, ala GL. Her story with Dr. Green was so good and starting to boil, yet she leaves barely a 1/4 of the way through the season. She couldn't finish the damn season? It was so good, and she ruined a great story by leaving. Then leaving a fortune? It's absolutely insane.

Her Blake was anything but flat. She was fire. Villainous, yes, she was written that way. But her relationship with her dad was warm. She was also fire with Alan-Michael. Sherry was unmatched as Blake. It was no surprise she found huge success in prime time.

[quote]Ain’t it funny how once she finally won for Lead Actress, Lucci pretty much stopped getting nominated. I’m not sorry when I say she didn’t deserve those 21 nominations. I’ve always found her acting to be very stereotypical soap acting IOW not great. There were literally dozens of actresses in any given year who were better than her in every way.

I think Lucci kept getting nominated because it became a running joke and brought attention to the Daytime Emmys.

I think for something to be considered "good" soap acting you have to be somewhat showy and over the top. Erika Slezak has something like 6 Emmys and that was some of the biggest hambone acting I've ever scene. Same thing for Elizabeth Hubbard, I loved the actress, but some of what she was doing was just way too much.

I always liked Hubbard. I thought it was right for the character, especially her humble beginnings.

People often single out Slezak and Zimmer - both hams, but Zimmer could sell the heartache of her character believably. I wasn't always as convinced with Slezak and really can't believe she won six times.

The Third Victoria was lacking in many ways.

The running joke wasn't a joke for the actress who deserved Lucci's slot.

Say what you will about Zimmer, but she could act her ass off. She could deliver a stellar performance with any material they gave her. She wasn't hammy most of the time. The fountain scene was searing and heartbreaking. Her Emmy reel for her 1990 win was a masterclass. Watch it. Understated yet full of pain and shame, yet a hint of forgiveness. I maintain Zimmer is the best actress in daytime history. As I said earlier, she could handle anything they gave her and make some absurdities seem like Shakespeare.

R187 yes, I agree.

She could and did serve ham from time to time (Proud Mary, anyone?) but the fountain scene and the scene where she confronts her abuser were both Zimmer at the top of her game.

R188 Proud Mary was meant to be hammy, no?

When the poster upthread said soap acting sometimes required the actor to be a bit over the top. I agree, which is why I never found Lucci nearly as good as dozens of others. Take Zimmer. Compare her scenery chewing to Lucci and Zimmer blows her away. In the late years of GL, I did find Zimmer's performances were often not on par with much of her earlier work.

R189 Zimmer's second go round never clicked as well as her first, with the possible exception of some of the amazing Jonathan scenes, her courtroom scenes with Annie, and when Richard died.

Her clone work, too. Exceptional with absurd material.

I think her work suffered in those years due to booze.

I hated Keifer as Blake. I could never get past it. Never. Sherry was Blake. If Keifer had been Roger's daughter with Rita ( they'd have to retcon it but that never stopped them) or someone else I'd be fine with her. Just not as Blake. I know that's been discussed to death. Sorry.

Yes, we've discussed the Blake and Alexandra replacements to death.

I liked both Dusay and Keifer in the first year or so after they took over, as I thought they took the characters in different directions, but not as much later on. Not sure if it was them or the writing but the later years lost focus.

Er, wait. Not so much "different directions" but more just adding more nuances to what was already great portrayals.

Dusay, at times, was very good. But I hated her acting style, and she was never as cool attitude wise as Alexandra. I also never found her to be as warm, either. Dusay would get her lines flustered a lot, too. Oh, and the writing didn’t do anyone justice. Too many HW changes. I hate Joan Collins didn’t stick around longer. I thoroughly enjoyed her Alex. There were talks of Jane Elliott being Alex.

In my opinion, Anna Holbrook was one of the best actresses in daytime. Out of all the DID stories in daytime, Holbrook did it right.

GL not successfully recasting 3 pivotal roles (Mindy, Alex, Blake) really hurt the show. Fans were deeply divided and it is still playing out fiercely in these threads.

Unlike these successful recasts:

Alan Michael (Rick Hearst)

Blake (Sherry Stringfield)

Beth (Beth Chamberlin)

Hart (the guy who was in the accident)

Those were pivotal characters with very successful recasts. Beth was probably the one they were most worried about given Judi was beloved in the role, but it worked and fans aren’t really all that divided over it.

They got a lot right in a row with those being recast around the same time, and a lot wrong with Alex, Blake, Mindy all around the same time.

Dusay’s SB costar Judith McConnell would have been a great Alex. She played bitchy well before. And Sophia Capwell had that same aura of regret and longing for not being there for her kids, like Alex Spaulding.

R196 I agree with almost everything you stated but GL never really got Hart right. Except for Leonard Staab and unfortunately he was injured.

But yes, Betty Rea had a few great recasts in the late 80s/early 90s.

Jeff Phillips was quite good as the original Hart. I liked his youthful nativity and exuberance. His Hart was also a bit nerdy, which I found endearing.

Leonard Stabb's Hart was virtually a different character. His Hart was hunky and cocky, with emphasis on masculinity and virility, No nerdiness here, but Stabb was absolutely the right one for the part.

AMC had a similar character switch for the Scott Chandler character. Shane McDemott played a nerdy, teen, inexperienced at life Scott. But when the replaced him with Daniel Cosgrove, Scott became hunky and cocky.

The subsequent Harts never measured up to Leonard Stabb. Frank Grillo may have been cute to look at, but he was always wrong for the part.

I liked Frank Girillo as Hart because Hart wasn’t that well established, or should I say no actor before, except Staab, made an impact and Grillo was so good. He’s a really good actor with a lot of screen presence.

Plus, he and Wendy Moniz had off the charts chemistry, obviously.

I’ll add Wendy Moniz as Dinah as another successful recast. She was so interesting and unique. I am glad she got Yellowstone. She deserves a lot of success. Grillo has done very well himself.

I really didn't like most of the Harts except for Stabb. Nancy Curlee introduced a few great characters who really livened up the existing canvas - Bridget and Eleni - but Hart and Julie were sorta mediocre (Hart) to total duds (Julie).

[quote]Shane McDemott played a nerdy, teen, inexperienced at life Scott.

Didn't he play Hart on GL, too? I'll never forget one Fourth of July he lay shirtless, sunning himself on a rock, waiting for some female character to come and gobble him up. He was that hot, so much so that I no longer remember the girl character.

R204, I think you’re thinking of Sean McDermott. He played Hart for a few months. I don’t think his portrayal was very well-received.

Sean McDermott, bless his heart, was the emergency recast for Leonard Stabb after his injury. As in, I think Leonard filmed part one of a scene and Sean had to fill in the second part.

Sean was pleasant enough to look at but he was as nellie as the day is long, and most GL fans had two words for his portrayal: "Girl, please."

Hart was written off for a bit before Marshall Hilliard came in as Hart #4.

R187, Ironically, Zimmer did not win for the fountain scene; meaning, she didn't submit it.

It was a knockdown with Joshua in that condo everyone sooner or later lived in, I believe.

Did someone say HAM?

Kim Zimmer is the funnest person. So personable.

R207 Are you sure?

I watched the entire episode yesterday. Damn it was good. It was sad. It was intense. The acting was off the charts, not just Zimmer, but Newman, Clark, and Gates as well.

Not R207 but yes, they are correct. From Kim's book:

Luckily, when I received my first nomination in 1985, I had a fantastic year of material to choose from. I thought it was important to show that Reva was both funny and emotional. She could make her audience laugh and cry—in the same scene! It wasn’t because I was a brilliant actress. Nope. It was all about the stellar writing on the show and how well my character was developed—even before I breathed life into her on-screen.

I actually had a hard time putting together a reel of my work, because there were so many good episodes to choose from. This was the year of my infamous “fountain scene,” where I stripped down to my undies and baptized myself the “Slut of Springfield” in front of Josh. But guess what—that wasn’t on my reel! The fountain scene happened at the very end of the episode, which mainly consisted of one big party scene with the entire cast. I may have had a funny line here and a snippy line there, but there was no real “meat” until that last scene. Admittedly, it was a doozy, but I was afraid voters would get bored watching the party scenes and wouldn’t get to the final fountain scene before casting a “no” vote.

I can’t remember exactly what was on my reel that year, but I know it had a lot to do with the fabulous Lewis men!

Also....I can't remember if it was this thread or another one here on the DL but there was a discussion about Pam Long and Kim having such an intense fight that the producer with them actually threw up. True - Kim also talks about that in her book:

[quote] One unforgettable fight happened in a New York City restaurant. Joe Willmore, our executive producer at the time, Pam, and I were having dinner so we could discuss the direction they were going in with Reva. I really can’t remember the exact issue, but an argument escalated between Pam and me to such a boiling point that Joe excused himself from the table, went outside, and threw up! He was so upset that his leading actress and head writer were having such an intense argument that it actually made him sick. Poor baby. It was clear that Pam and I both came to love Reva so much that we each fought hard for her. If Pam wanted to do something with Reva that I didn’t agree with, I made her convince me that she was right and I was wrong. I trusted her, so when she took a firm stand, I’d always give in. Still, I needed Pam to totally convince me that it was the right decision before I could or would invest in the story line. By the end of the evening, we had settled our issues and left each other with hearty hugs and kisses. Joe was a little green but he survived. That was the way Pam and I fought. We’d go at it with such great intensity and wouldn’t quit till we came up with great results!

It's insane they have to submit a full episode rather than, say, 30-45 mins of their best work.

In the old days you had to submit all of your scenes from 2 or 3 episodes. Nowadays you can sumbit any scenes from the year up to a certain time limit.

I think the rules have changed since then but not sure

Another GL article I don't think I ever saw before.....

R215 The rules (as of last year) say the reel can consist of up to15 minutes from any scenes that aired during the calendar year. Scenes have to be separated by 2-3 seconds of black space. No montages allowed and no more than 25% flashbacks from work in prior years.

Like wearing white after Labor Day, R215?

R216, thanks for posting!

R218 Fashion HAS changed!

R207 here; that fountain episode is off the charts; one of my favorite parts is Ross asking Trish to come home with him.

I felt so badly for Trish in that show; I got the impression she was never going to put herself first. She'd always be there for her brothers and dad, probably filling the void left by Miss Martha.

HERE is the episode that I believe Zimmer won her first DT Emmy for. She had hosted the Mr. Springfield contest with some hotties at Company (I think that episode may have been on her reel, too); then she and Josh have it out (one of many, many times over the decades) in the condo that later was owned by Warren Andrews and

I hit POST too early; the condo that Warren owned for a bit (Reva sold it to him after she married HB) and then Warren sold it to Kyle Sampson; he wanted it because Reva owned it once.

Then, the Spauldings got it; Phillip lived there circa 1988 after he moved out of the lighthouse.

Please note in that episode above that it also contains CLASSIC Alexandra and Lujack stuff; BEVERLEE should have been nominated for all of that stuff.

I'm one of Zimmer's BIGGEST fans but honestly where were the DT Emmys for Beverlee, Mary Kay Adams, and later, Maureen Garrett.

When I think that we used to get shows like this and acting like this all the time, every week for years? We wuz spoiled.

R207, here.

I do believe the directors of GL won for the fountain scene episode. It was shown at the awards; the clips shown aren't always the one that are on the reels but they can be.

THIS is the scene that should have won DT Emmys all around -- for both Zimmer and Mary Kay and for writing and directing.

Someone at the GATES should watch this!!!

R224 Reva should have thrown in a barb about Beth towards India. THAT was India’s vulnerability.

Great scene.

This was Long at her best writing. All of it from these last few posts. The acting is such quality from everyone you rarely saw in daytime, at least for me. Spoiled, yes.

I mentioned a TV Guide article from 1989 about the casting of Samantha Marler on Guiding Light — I tracked it down. Here’s part 1

Casting Guiding Light 1989 - Part 2

Casting Guiding Light 1989 - Part 3

Casting Guiding Light - Part 4

Fantastic article.

As it turned out, Long's instincts were right....Cote was a bit of a damp dishrag in that role.

What did Long say?

Yes, Cote was a nothingburger.

R231 It's in the article. She said she wasn't very excited about her.

The frizzy haired girl looked interesting but just with a 10 second glance, I'd say she was giving off energy similar to Beth Ehlers (and/or looked like Ehlers) so that may not have been a good choice, either.

Thank you R226. A lovely Christmas surprise.

When Pam Long came back in August 1987 one of her first episodes had Reva talking to Sarah about hunger. I remember watching that scene a few times. Kim was brilliant.

I'm surprised Samantha was never brought back. They reinvented so many characters on GL and ATWT it seems like she would have been a good one to recast.

Cote and Hayley Barr must have been part of a push circa 1988-89 to youthify those shows or have "normal teen girl" types on the shows. I can't remember if Barr or Robert Morse's daughter came first.

Barr came after Robin Morse-Pam Wagner was introduced in1987 and gone by 1989; Courtney came to town a few months after her brother Sean in 1990.

I really liked Pam, and Robin Morse did a good job portraying her as a level-headed young person. It's not her fault she was paired with the "sensitive", bombastic, highly-irritating Beau. Beau walked so that Eddie Silva could run, unfortunately.

I remember reading that TV Guide article about the casting of Samantha Marler. That article likely contributed to my fondness for Suzy Cote. Thanks for posting.

Wonder why they changed direction and didn't have Samantha and Alan-Michael get involved. Instead they paired her with Dylan? But clearly Pam Long was never sold on Cote as Samantha, which is likely why she never really gave her great material over her three years o n the show.

IMDB shows that GL was probably Cote's biggest credit.

Morgan England is probably rubbing one out reading this about Suzy Cote. He had a hard on every time he worked with her.

Beau was terrible. He was too fey to be the Holden wannabe they were trying to create.

Suzy Cote would be an interesting guest on The Locher Room.

I still want to see, perhaps more than anyone else, Mary Kay Adams.

"Fey" was not the word that came to my mind when he was screaming at and manhandling one woman after the next, R240.

Well, whatever he was, he was weird. The character, if not the actor. I always suspected he was some trick of either Bob Calhoun or Marland's and they created a role for him.

Who was Beau?

Beau was on for a year or so. He was the brother of Bob and Kim’s babysitter (and Bob’s stalker), Laura Simmons. After that story ended, he hung around for a while and dated John’s niece Pam, then they left town together.

Thank you, r245. It must have been before my time. I started watching when Robert Tyler (AKA Barry Kaufman) was hanging around the OYC pool in 1988 or '89.

"...he hung around for a while and dated John’s niece Pam, then they left town together."

Actually, Beau inexplicably left town with Roy Franklin's sister, Nella, whom he barely knew. Pam left town shortly afterward.

Mary Kay Adams always had such dykey vibes. Like she wanted St. Beth for herself. She didn’t want Pheeelleep. She wanted Beth.

I am trying the find a scene where Barbara becomes "bad and bitchy". Colleen spoke of filming a scene (in part two of her We Love Soaps interview), shortly after Doug Marland returned as head writer in 1985 he told her to play it like a brand-new character. Not evil, but with much more of an edge.

The scene Zenk mentioned in the interview does not seem to be online, which is a shame as P&G has been much better than other companies in not going after copyrighted material. Perhaps some Datalounger remembers the moment and would like to share, after all, Barbara's bitchiness did not just materialize out of thin air.

There's a few clips out there with Shannon and Barbara near the beginning of the time she's talking about, but nothing that would suggest the sudden turn.

Marland seems to have transformed Barbara into "Bad Barbara" around the same time John Hensley first appeared as Holden. The show is so big at this point, it's busting at the seams with so many actors and stories intertwining. It's not uncommon for a front-burner character to only appear for several minutes per week during late 1985, into 1986. Holden gets to swagger into his scenes plenty of times, asking for a character named "Lully". I'm unsure who "Lully" is but we hear her mentioned quite a bit.

Was that ATWT or a Falcon Video R252?

Jon Hensley was absolutely Falcon material in those days.

I started watching around this time but I either completely forgot John and Sierra were a thing, or I started shortly after they were over.

Somebody must have fortified Barbara's cornflakes for such a profound change in her character overnight. Thank God for Marland, because Barbara was as dull as dishwater before. I wonder who the people on set were giving the actress a hard time though.

Man, Holden was pure sex!

J saw one clip shortly after Barbara’s transformation to bitchy Barbara. Lisa and Barbara were remodeling Fashions and they hired Steve to do the work. She put him through his paces, going over costs and timeframes, and Lisa pulled her aside and asked her why she was acting like that. Bob had a scene like that with her, as well.

Didn’t she change over the course of an episode, because she went to Brian McColl’s to get back together with him and instead found Shannon in his robe?

[quote] I wonder who the people on set were giving the actress a hard time though.

We know CZ and Hillary Bailey Smith had issues. Not sure of the others.....was Helen one of them, or was that just a DL joke?

Huh.

This compilation has one of the first scenes of the new bitchier Barbara after she catches Brian with Shannon.

[quote]We know CZ and Hillary Bailey Smith had issues.

Oh yeah, these two did not like each other at all.

CZP was the problem. Her affairs, her insistence that her dressing room be way away from everyone else’s - she was a handful.

What was the cause of the problem between CZP and HBS?

R262 Not sure but there was speculation that HBS had issues with Colleen and Mark leaving their spouses and getting together.

Lots of gossip bits are unsubstantiated, but I remember there was an article sometime in the 1986-88 range of Digest that specifically mentioned Colleen and Hillary by name (a rarity) as costars that had a conflict, and I think they even mentioned it became physical in the studio once.

There's only been a few other times I can remember something like that where actors are mentioned by name. The press covered Eric Braeden and Peter Bergman, of course. There was a video of Kim Zimmer and Cynthia Watros having some sort of minor scuffle (purse throwing). Years later when Gina Tognoni supposedly tore up a dressing room at GL over Tom Pelphrey hooking up with his onscreen girlfriend, it was in gossip blogs but no names were mentioned.

Wow, I didn't know about Kim Zimmer and Cynthia Watros, but I had heard about Tom Pelphrey fucking every actress in NYC.

Supposedly Gina walked in on Tom fucking Stephanie Gatschet and literally had a meltdown, destroying his dressing room. I think cops or first responders had to be called.

Kim and Cynthia never came to blows but apparently there was a bad stretch of time during the intense Reva/Annie story. There's video of Kim throwing a purse at Cynthia and saying something.

I saw a social interaction between Maggie Reed and Colleen Zenk; one was referring the other to a job or audition. They seem to get along.

I've seen supposably feuding stars wish each other happy birthday on FB

Back in the day, Digest used to name names. Chappell and Hall's feud made headlines.

Hunter and Kimberlin.

Alfonso did a cover story that said something along the lines of she and Reckell didn't speak or socialize outside of Bo and Hope; THAT was huge as we all love to think that all the actors get along.

Chappell feuded with Dee Dee Halls? I didn't know that. I know she and Skeletor Alfonso feuded. And CC had a few dust ups at GL.

There was a legendary story in which CC went up to Hall in the makeup room and asked her why didn't she like her?

Queen D supposably responded: "I don't dislike you...I just think you're on the show too much."

CC is a cunt. Nasty human.

I thought Colleen also disliked Jacqueline Schultz too?

ATWT didn’t seem like a contentious set, for most part? Helen’s dressing down of tramps and Colleen’s little feuds being exceptions.

If CZP was in all these feuds, and she's the common denominator, then I'm surprised she lasted on the show as long as she did. Did she also fight wth Kathryn Hayes?

[quote]Did she also fight wth Kathryn Hayes?

And run the risk of getting The Full Kiddo?

(also, "Hays")

Supposedly Kristian and Peter had a huge falling out… I bet they both got too big for their Britches and they both admitted they didn’t handle it the best. They have since made up I believe

Spread her legs Zenk-Pinter was something. She wanted her dressing room away from everyone else.

Someone has to keep harlots and hussies in line!

I'd only ever heard about Colleen and Hillary. But if there were actresses who were getting more attention pre-Marland, I could see a little resentment from others if Colleen was suddenly driving story.

I think Hillary was pals with Pinter's ex-wife?

Off-screen unfriendliness certainly added to the on-screen feud.

Marland was brilliant. I imagine many women wonder if their husbands are attracted to women who are arguably more beautiful than they may be? More passionate? Sexy?

Marland addressed this with the Lesley/Rick/Monica triangle. Rick was drawn to Monica physically; they were compatible at work. Once he thought Monica was going to give him a child (a son!) poor Les was out in the cold.

I'm sure deep down Margo, as a cop, may have felt less beautiful than Simply Barbara (Colleen Zenk was STUNNINGLY beautiful).

I think Tom dumped Barbara as a client because he was too attracted to her; Babs saw an opportunity to hurt one of the men whom she felt had hurt her and took it.

Another brilliant decision by Marland was to have Margo forgive Tom and reconcile BEFORE she found out that they'd never slept together at all.

Tom and Margo were separated during the murder investigation of Doug Cummings and Kim going on trial for it. Margo broke some rules trying to help Kim, of course. But she was also helping Tom b/c her love for him didn't go away despite his perceived betrayal.

Sigh. And now, we have The Gates and more JG to look forward to.

Thank God for YouTube.

R277 there's a great Barbara/Margo scene where Margo says "I've got to go before I throw up" and that dealt with what you mentioned....why would a beautiful woman who could have anyone go after another woman's man?

Merry Christmas

Love, B.D.

Weren't Barbara and Tom's step-siblings?

R280 Briefly, when Bob was married to Jennifer - Frannie's mom and Kim's sister.

Has Colleen Zenk-Pinter commented about Ed Scott cheating on Melody?

I feel like riding a cock horse to Banbury Cross.

Or maybe I'll just ride Seth Snyder's horse cock instead.

Oh, R266 — supposably — oh, oh, oh, dear.

Christmas in Oakdale 1985 is about as perfect as it gets.

It is pretty perfect, R285!

Peak era JWS.

Andy is so young!

R278, Doug came on and he looked at Barbara's rotten history with men.

She dumped Tom for James when he came back to town with their son or news of their son; James was abusive. She fell for Gunnar who 'left' her when he went off to die. One may know in his/her head that a person doesn't WANT to leave but one still might feel abandoned on some level. Or alone.

Then, I believe Brian came along. I think they split over Paul not liking Brian. She briefly dated or spent time with Cal; I recall a show (HOW I RECALL THIS close to 40 years later I don't know) in which he blasted her for not having a successful relationship with a man.

Brian took up with Shannon and Barbara grew determined to lash back out. She used Tom after he told her he couldn't be around her because he was attracted to her (I think that's what happened). So, she decided to lash out there too.

Lucinda asked Barbara if she had second thoughts about bringing Duncan to ruin Shannon and Brian's wedding before it all went down. Barbara was surprised she'd asked and said no.

Lucinda reminded Babs that she cared for Brian at one time, but Babs wasn't changing her mind. She leaves and Lucinda hums the wedding march "Dum Dee Dah ....DUMMMMM!" knowing a big fallout was coming.

I do happen to think that Doug's ATWT run -- late 1985 to 1990 was the best.

I know he wrote to early 1993, but those last few years weren't the best.

R287, here; well, here's a scene with Babs and Lucinda.

It must have been an episode prior where she is more active about getting Barbara to change her mind, pointing out she once cared for Brian.

But her wedding march funny bit is in this clip, which stars at 3:11

Brian rips into Barbara; good shit;

Doug was a master at people scheming and then them getting theirs!

Margo's rape story and the Bob/Kim/Susan story were great later in Marland's run. To me his weakest period is the 18 months or so after Julianne, Hillary and Martha all left. It was also the summer of the writer's strike (1988) and the show just went to shit for a while.

Next week is the 40th anniversary of the end of Edge of Night.

Final episode aired Dec. 28, 1984.

Next week also marks the 42nd anniversary of the last episode of Texas. Final episode aired Dec. 31, 1982.

This week marks the 38th anniversary of the last episode of Search for Tomorrow. Final episode aired Dec. 26, 1986. Search has now been gone for more years than it lasted. Show aired for 35 years.

Although we rarely talk about Somerset, next week marks the 48th anniversary of its demise. Final episode aired Dec. 31, 1976.

THE Edge of Night was never the same after they dropped THE from the title.

Anyone interested in Somerset, linked below is an incredible website devoted to the show. It has detailed synopsis, detailed cast list and lots of photos.

Perhaps the most fascinating thing is the thoughtful and detailed analysis of what was going right and wrong behind the scenes.

Perhaps the most Pam Long moment of all Pam Long moments.....when Ashley, missing and thought dead, returns at Christmas, very pregnant.

The last few minutes of this episode would be the second most Pam Long moment of all Pam Long moments.

R291, I agree that the Bob/Kim/Susan story was great. I loved it!

and the Margo HIV rape in 1992 was very very good (and I don't even like Scott H. as Tom; he was never Tom, to me).

I don't count WGA strike stuff; I watched the credits go from omitting the dialogue writers, then breakdown, then it would go to "story by Douglas Marland"

The strikes then were always timed to start around the end of prime time hiatus so that the fall season wasn't affected. Soaps always got screwed.

The Hank Elliot stuff played out during the strike I believe; I'll never forget Tom Wiggin's Kirk Anderson say to Iva. "Maybe Hank likes guys in New York and girls in Oakdale?"

Kirk and Iva never should have broken up.

Marland got lost in the Carolyn Crawford and Aaron paternity stories-both of them went on a year too long. Oakdale also got a lot

The Scott Eldridge and Margo rape stories were standouts.

R285: That scene where Lucinda opens the gift from Lily always gets to me so much. "No. 1 Mom..." Knowing deep down what would inevitably happen, and that there was no way to stop it.

Doug understood soaps are about family.

I loved Meg who was in that Bobbie Spencer or Nola Reardon vein of wanting a better life and going after it.

Iva pointed out to Meg once that poor Lily didn't have a father, prompting Meg to fire back: "Neither do I!"

Pam Long killed 3 NBC soaps. Texas, Search and Santa Barbara.

Pam was the worst choice for SB.

R302, I loved the scenes at the farm when everyone else was fawning over Lily, and Meg would mutter under her breath, "You spoiled little brat!" Jennifer Ashe was marvelous in the role. I only wish they had kept Meg and Tonio together longer, having affairs, flaunting their wealth, and making big trouble, rather than condemning Meg by chaining her to the "reformed"-yet-still-repellent Josh.

Spread your legggs Zenk-Pinter was hated by the cast. The things Helen Wagner would say about her! Yikes. I miss those days.

[quote]Scott H. as Tom

That was an odd choice, given the previous Toms. Maybe they just wanted someone who would stick around, but Scott H diminished the character, and Tom just became a supporting player. Scott also seemed a little too ethnic for the uber-whitebread Hughes family.

They should have reached out to Tony Craig, who played Draper Scott on Edge of Night.

R301, that gets me too.

I also loved Holden glaring at Lily’s wet feet in the Snyder kitchen.

Holden/Jon looked like a particular gay porn star of that era (Lex Baldwin).....wonder if that was intentional.

[quote]CZP was the problem. Her affairs, her insistence that her dressing room be way away from everyone else’s - she was a handful.

A great actress though, and every show (if they were lucky) had a diva like her.

I did not watch much in the final year, the show and its performances were so low-energy, but the one bright spot was Colleen still playing it like it was the 1980s.

Merry Christmas to everyone.....except for Cecile!

Lisa Brown - Part 1

Lisa Brown - Part 2