Who Killed Jon-Benet, Gritty Edition

Now I kind of want to rewatch the Burke and John on Dr. Phil show. I vaguely remember John was sort of trying to point fingers at Burke, and I remember being disgusted, because parents are supposed to protect their kids. But if John did it, it would make sense he's trying to point at someone else.

If you rewatch it, please give us a recap here. Plus, you know more about the case now, so the context of everything you see will have fresh meaning for you.

If you are still curious, read the letter Fleet White had published in Westword. I have no doubt they KNOW he did it, but I don’t think they’re dumb enough to see it ice hrcdies. Why? Because of Lin Wood. He will make sure the estate sues them into oblivion, and Fleet does have a lot to lose, he won’t believe it’s worth ruining his family and losing the family fortune over, only to get crushed in court anyway.

The two people I wound love to hear from are Linda Ardnt and the pediatrician. Linda was working on a book, but stopped. Did Steve Thomas die? I know the stress killed his marriage and career, I think he became a carpenter. I am convinced the pediatrician knows the dirt, but is unable to share it. If the doc had any brains, they would stage a break in, have the records stolen then “leaked”.

Everything about the "John did it" theory makes the most sense. Except, I guess there is fiber evidence pointing to Patsy. But I think she was wearing one of those nasty shaggy sweaters that shed EVERYWHERE.

No one in the family killed Jon-Benet.

R3

So I just watched the Burke interview with Dr. Phil 😊 😂 😊 😃 😃. Lawdamercy that is a weird cute duckling smile 😃 😂 😃 😀

R3, correct. It shed everywhere AND because John was so smart, once he contained the body with evidence, the red sweater become worthless. This case is less about physical evidence, and more about logic. John was a very logical man, he was an engineer. Linda Arndt said the body was soooo obvious in full rigor mortis, not a little, but fully. Her arms were sticking straight away from her body. John held her away from his body was his arms fully extended as far away from his body as he could. I think that is odd! I’ve been with someone dying….when when you know they’re gone, you don’t want to push them away, you want to name sure they’re comfortable while dying.

Even if John knew she was dead, wouldn’t you cradle her, or carry her with her facing you (like a hug)? I’m not judging him? Just trying to understand. People handle death differently, and losing a child is as big as it gets. But I still say it’s weird.

R4 you can fuck right on over to the pro-Ramsay thread

R6 was he as bananas as I remember him?? He is certifiably nuts/pentalky ill/disordered. I think he must have a form of Autism. What are the stats on autistic murders? It can’t be that high, right???

R9 He just won’t stop smiling when discussing his sister’s death. It’s so weird. But he doesn’t come across as a killer at all. Maybe he is autistic but I am bias in that good looking people never seem autistic to me. There is no way Burke did this. No child could keep that con up for 30 years.

[quote]When asked by a child psychologist to draw a picture of his family less than two weeks after the murder Burke didn't include his dead sister in the picture, something which psychologists say is unusual in young children who have lost a family member. Burke also told this same psychologist when asked how he was coping in the aftermath of the murder of his little sister that he was "getting on with his life."

⬆️ This is from the other thread.

Burke Ramsay is neurodivergent. It is extremely obvious. A child on the autism spectrum would absolutely answer like this.

ChatGPT: “Children on the autism spectrum often exhibit literal thinking from an early age, though the degree and circumstances can vary widely depending on the child. Literal thinking—interpreting language in a straightforward or concrete way without understanding implied meaning, idioms, metaphors, or sarcasm—is a hallmark trait of autism that may persist throughout life.“

Burke said I ain’t seen that attention starved heifer in 2 weeks. She WON’T be in my pictures.

Yes, autistic children may smile at times that others perceive as inappropriate, and this can persist into adulthood. However, the reasons behind these smiles are not arbitrary; they often serve a purpose or reflect the individual’s internal state, even if it isn’t immediately apparent to others. Here’s an overview:

Why Do Autistic People Smile at “Inappropriate” Times?

1. Emotional Mismatch: • An autistic child might smile when nervous, confused, or overwhelmed rather than happy. This can happen because their emotional expression does not always align with societal expectations. • Smiling might be a way to self-regulate or mask their discomfort. 2. Social Uncertainty: • Autistic individuals often struggle with understanding and responding to social cues. Smiling might be a default response when they’re unsure how to react in a situation. 3. Sensory or Internal Stimuli: • They may smile because they are experiencing joy or comfort from an internal thought, a sensory input (like a sound they like), or a repetitive behavior, even if it seems unrelated to the external situation. 4. Learned Behavior: • Some autistic individuals develop a habit of smiling to “blend in” or avoid drawing negative attention, even when the emotion isn’t genuine. This is a form of masking, which can persist into adulthood.

Does This Persist Into Adulthood?

• For Many, Yes: The tendency to smile at times others find “inappropriate” often persists into adulthood, particularly if it serves as a coping mechanism or default reaction. • Adaptation and Awareness: With time, some autistic adults may become more aware of social expectations and modify their behavior, but this often depends on the individual’s experiences and comfort level in social settings. • Masking Costs: Adults who mask their natural responses, like smiling at unusual times, may experience significant stress or burnout over time because masking requires constant effort.

Also ChatGPT

If Patsy and John were covering for Burke, the ransom note could have been brief and to the point - not the batshit missive that it was. Surely John, who was familiar with action movies and novels, must have known how insane the letter came across.

The ransom note makes much more sense if you consider that the it was all about convincing Patsy to let John leave the house with the body.

The insane ransom note is one of the biggest stumbling blocks in this case for me when I try to make sense of everything, R14. John seems like an intelligent man. I can’t see him as the author. The ransom note reads as a crazy person’s attempt to buy more time or distract people from what really happened. It is not the work of an experienced criminal. And Patsy and John ended up simply ignoring the directives in the note and calling 911 anyway. If Patsy killed her daughter why would she call the cops immediately? if John were the murderer, he would try to prevent anyone calling 911 or at least delay it until he could figure out how to dispose of the body.

I do not believe an intruder wrote the note because that requires a scenario in which a criminal, already taking a huge risk, adds to the risk by rummaging around the Ramseys’ house looking for a pen and paper to write an extremely long message and then neatly replacing the pen he used back where he found it. A practiced kidnapper would have a ransom note already with him preferably pre-printed and not in his own handwriting.

R15, Patsy called 911. If it was a mutual decision, I would have expected the less overwrought John to call. If John was the killer, the letter WAS his attempt to stop Patsy from calling the police.

R15 If they had never decided to write that stupid ransom note, the suspicion that either Jon or Patsy did it might been less.

I mean, they could've just called 911 and said their child was missing. Children go missing all the time and aren't kidnapped by "small foreign factions."

True, however, there was no pause on calling 911, despite the threat of JonBenet being beheaded. That makes me think that Patsy didn't worry about JB being killed because she knew she was already dead.

R17 True, but if you call 911 after not seeing your kid for just a few hours, and you live in a huge house, they might not come out. You need them to come and witness you definitely finding the body by accident, and not walking straight to it. I know now the cops act much more quickly in cases of missing children, but back then they probably still had a standard wait time.

R19 So why didn't the Ramseys wait a few hours, find a way to dispose of the body, THEN call 911 after they'd taken care of everything and say, "We've been looking for her for hours?"

That seems like it would've been a better plan overall.

R20 Because it's better to have a witness, like a cop, see you find your dead kid so they know you DEFINITELY didn't kill her and hide her. I think they wanted it on the record that they had no idea where she was and for sure didn't kill her. Sociopaths think they're the fucking smartest people in the room, and they like to perform.

R21 Okay, I get that.

But still...they could've planted the body, gotten themselves together for a few hours, then called 911 hysterically and said they'd been looking all over for her.

The ransom note thing was just so...stupid.

Well remember it snowed, maybe John had the wherewithal to realize he didn't want to be out there, creating car prints and footprints. It's too bad he forgot to create the footprints of the intruder.

What was John's motive? Wasn't he like 55 or something at the time of her death?

In 1999, a grand jury voted to indict the parents of murdered 6-year-old beauty pageant winner JonBenét Ramsey on charges of child abuse resulting in death and of being accessories to a crime. The indictment alleges that between Christmas Day and Dec. 26, 1996, John and Patsy Ramsey “unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child’s life or health,” which resulted in her death.

Why would his being 55 not make him a viable suspect? are you the poster who is pushing the stupid intruder theory? So are you saying that by allowing this intruder to come in, they placed her in harm's way?

I’m sure that poster is the OP of the other thread r25. They are MAD that we dare to openly say that it’s clearly John — clear as the nose on your face.

As far as Patsy calling anyway, let’s get rid of the idea that a hysterical mother is going to obey the words of the person who took her child away from her. She was in primal/survival mode. It’s a shame she didn’t document what REALLY happened that morning. I promise you, there were little “tells” John gave away, and she knew it that day, but then blocked it all out. I believe it’s why she looked at cops through her fingers — deep down, she KNEW something was very very very wrong, and she was too terrified to face what it meant. But she knew, if only briefly.

The thing that will never cease to amaze me is how utterly invested some people are in the murderer being a specific known person.

There’s a reason this is such a famous case. The evidence is absolutely bonkers, meaning, just when you’re absolutely sure it was one person, a piece of evidence looms up and says, nope.

While I’m also in the camp that believes it was someone in the family, because it seems insane that an intruder is part of the picture, let’s never forget this is America, and insane things happen here on a daily basis. Remember Denise Huskins — some home invasions sound completely fabricated until it’s proven they happened.

If it weren’t for that crazy ransom note I’d be pretty convinced it was an intruder/pedo. But as always with this case, just when you think you know the answer, the evidence throws dust in your face.

The people who tell you to shut up because it was definitely X are saying more about themselves than they are about the evidence.

John and Patsy on MADtv (with a special appearance by Burke!)

If this were a “Law and Order” episode, it would turn out it was an intruder BUT Patsy wrote the ransom note because she mistakenly thought John was the murderer.

R29 If it were Law & Order SVU it would turn out that Burke did it because he got wind that Patsy was pregnant with another future starlet. But that his blow actually didn’t kill her as the family had been poisoned by pineapples. You see the vitality bank that Patsy used to store her eggs was targeted by an anti-abortion activism group whose one member was also schizophrenic and broke into the home and sprinkled poison all over the delicious fruit. John, who had also been her diddling her, then forms the garrote protecting his baby boy for life.

Christ I miss classic MadTV!

It always went places SNL would never dare to...

How terrifying is Michael McDonald as John Ramsey? LOL

MADtv did another episode in which John & Patsy appear on Hollywood Squares but I can't find it on YouTube.

Idk I definitely don't think an intruder did it because of the note. Why would John smack her over the head with a flashlight? They came home at near midnight, wouldn't he be tired? The whole thing is fucking weird. If I was a 50 something year old man worth millions murdering a little pageant girl is the last thing I'd be interested in. I'd let mother, the frigid wife take care of the kids and get my jollies on my travel trips if I really needed that. I'm rich and got that way with wise decision making! My wife got us into this mess and I'm cleaning it up to keep our lifestyle.

John doesn’t seem like an incestuous pedo. AFAIK there’s no evidence at all to back that up.

The Burke theory (he killed her in a sibling scuffle, parents engaged in a crazy coverup) is the least insane theory to me, but then there’s … the garrote.

Maybe the same person who killed Nicole brown Simpson. 🤷‍♂️

R27 Yes that's true, I remember the case of the woman who was arrested for murdering her own son, until they realized it was Tommy Lynn Sells. But they figured that out and exonerated her, It didn't drag on for 30 years, almost. So I feel like it would have worked itself out, eventually, someone would know the person who did it, someone would have said something. I imagine scummy pedo intruders don't have a circle of loyal friends, so they would be told on at some point.

[quote] John doesn’t seem like an incestuous pedo.

Conclusive, then.

Apparently, the basement was a labyrinth of odd-shaped rooms. Here's a floor plan. Anyway, her body was found in the wine cellar. John walked down to the basement, with cops, and made a bee line to the wine cellar and "first discovered" JB's body.

The broken window was in the storage area, to the left of the hobby room.

Who would go downstairs? That the basement in the 7th circle of hell.

Aw yes R38, the tiny broken window that no grown up could fit through, and underneath it, the small suitcase that couldn't support anyone's weight. talk about staging! That whole thing was absurd.

I do believe this was the toilet that either Burke or one of his lil playmates left a "surprise" for Patsy to discover.

She was not amused.

r4 Bless your heart

It's not Jon-Benet or even JonBenet, it is JonBenét!

Get it right, cunts!

R43 Lawd lemme find out Queen Bey swagger jacked JonBenet.

r34 The garrote was more of a noose with a handle at the end. I read that the knots used were simple and improvised and could've been done by someone who'd been been in the boy scouts, like Burke. JB's hair is tangled up in the handle knots which implies it was tied close to her head. I notice in the basement they have a poster of Murder on the Orient Express, very ominous if you know how that movie ended.

Burke didn't participate in any of the after events. He just knocked his sister out from behind with a heavy blow from the flashlight and then walked away to go play a videogame

It is my understanding that prosecuters will not pursue a case unless there is a good chance of conviction, so nobody is going to jail for this. Even if John makes a deathbed confession, he could be doing it to protect Burke, who can't be prosecuted anyway(s), since he was 9 at the time. I think it was all three of them, or two of them, or maybe just one, or somebody else.

Maybe the truth is the parents were framed all along and didn't do it.

How could one write a note in the middle of the night with no sleep?

R48 Maybe Hortense is just a troll.

Looks like it's now dawning on John that this shit show is the legacy that he's going to leave behind for his family.

Couldn't happen to nicer people.

I don’t think many on here actually watched the doc because it was clear the detectives royally fucked up the case and were trying to pin it on the parents because of a bias and not evidence.

(My favorite was how the police released the fact that there were no footprints on the snow by the open basement window, effectively undercutting the theory that it was an intruder, when the full story was, there was no snow at all in the backyard, thus no footprints.)

R51 Hi, Hortense.

It was the parents, not an intruder.

But thanks for stopping by.

[quote]John doesn’t seem like an incestuous pedo. AFAIK there’s no evidence at all to back that up.

Several pathologists have commented that JonBenét’s body at autopsy showed unmistakable signs of sexual abuse. I won’t go into gory detail here but you can learn more about this particular topic on the JBR forum on Reddit. Absent any evidence of JonBenét being in regular contact with an abusive adult outside the family we can only assume that someone in her family was responsible for this. When a child is sexually abused by a family member it is typically the oldest male in the household who is the perpetrator.

In addition one of the Ramseys’ former housekeepers said that John and Patsy had a sexless marriage, and a friend of John’s mentioned that he never saw John express any physical affection towards Patsy. Such a loveless environment is a risk factor for sexual abuse in which daughters are groomed into a sort of incestuous replacement spouse by an abusive father. I have no idea if that is what happened to JonBenét but it’s not completely out of the realm of possibility.

Sherlock Holmes, ever the precise and analytical mind, would address Dr. Watson with his characteristic calm and deductive reasoning:

"Watson, let us examine the Ramsey case through the lens of logic, not conjecture. The events of that night, as I deduce them, are as follows:

Firstly, we have the staged ransom note—three pages of verbosity, penned within the home itself. The peculiarities of its length, language, and materials suggest an attempt to obfuscate, not demand. The choice of words betrays familiarity and desperation rather than the cold calculation of an outsider.

Secondly, the DNA evidence, while presented as exculpatory, is inconclusive and muddied by contamination. It serves more as a red herring than a revelation, a convenient distraction for those wishing to divert suspicion.

Thirdly, the timeline of the evening aligns poorly with the notion of an intruder. No forced entry, no credible exit path, and no external signs of premeditation or stealth suggest the culprit resided within the house.

Lastly, we consider human behavior. Panic, guilt, and a familial bond can compel otherwise rational individuals to act irrationally. The marks of a hurried cover-up—a staged crime scene, inconsistencies in testimony—point not to a hardened criminal but to someone inexperienced and fearful.

My conclusion, Watson, is this: the tragedy was born of an internal accident or altercation, likely involving the young brother in a moment of unchecked emotion. The parents, upon discovering the aftermath, orchestrated a haphazard cover-up, believing it the only way to protect their family.

As ever, the simplest explanation, when all other possibilities are eliminated, is the truth. And in this case, it is a sorrowful truth indeed—one of human frailty and the lengths to which one might go to shield a loved one."

R43 And it's Ramsey, not Ramsay.

Watson, the case against the Ramseys is built on suspicion, not proof. The ransom note, while odd, could just as easily be a misdirection by an intruder. The foreign DNA on JonBenét’s clothing raises reasonable doubt, and the alleged access points to the home cannot be ignored. Their behavior, though scrutinized, reflects trauma, not necessarily guilt. Until incontrovertible evidence emerges, to condemn them would be a miscarriage of justice.

Half of all homicides reported to the FBI go unsolved, so this isn't unusual. Actually, I don't think the FBI was ever involved in this case, just the Boulder police force of under 200.

R45 you mean how it began! It was a flashback flick.

…the detectives royally fucked up the case and were trying to pin it on the parents because of a bias and not evidence.…

And so what? It’s happened before-…doesn’t mean one or both parents weren’t actually guilty.

John Ramsey was such an uninvolved parent, that we wouldn't have recognized JonBenet if he passed her on the street.

He was away traveling for business for most of his children's lives. He was an good looking rich business man, he didn't lack pussy options and wouldn't have gone after the daughter he barely knew.

Sex with a 6-year-old is not a substitute for adult pussy. Geez.

It's called pedophilia.

Many sex offenders who offend against children are opportunistic rather than preferential.

The house was decorated hideously. Patsy had total Frau taste, it was awful.

R51 Yes, you're right, I believe we made it pretty clear in the first thread that we could see this was a pro Ramsey doc and decided not to watch it for that reason. They have only half the fucking people involved in the case, they don't even have Linda Arndt, who was the detective alone with them for 6 hours. John fucking Ramsey cooperated on this movie which shows it would never point the finger at him. I will continue to never watch this, just as I won't watch that fucking Steven Avery doc. I don't need netflix trying to exonerate killers to me.

^^^Brendan Dassey should not be in prison. That case is very upsetting.

The prayer circle around JonBenet's body two minutes after it had been carried upstairs is one of the most batshit things. The whole family was so bizarre.

The note was written by a native English speaker, an American who had at least some college education or BA at university. Someone with hysterical personality. Someone faking obvious word misspellings and trying to write on behalf of a “foreign faction” signing off “victory”, which is one of the most ludicrous aspects of the note. Every part of the note sounds like what someone thinks a ransom note might sound like.

I can hear Patsy Ramsey saying these words, can’t you? This sounds exactly like things she would say. Either Patsy or Burke killed JonBenet and John agreed to be part of the coverup. Once he had involved himself in the coverup, he had to continue with that story for good.

That girl’s bedroom looks like it came from MacKenzie-Childs

The ransom note was also 3 pages, which is 2 pages longer than the typical ransom note. Typical Patsy to overdo something and make it too complicated.

[Murder, She Wrote: The Ransom That Didn’t Add Up]

[Scene: Ramsey House, Morning] Jessica Fletcher, out for her morning walk, sees the commotion. Minutes later, she’s inside, holding the ransom note.

Jessica: "Three pages? Did the kidnapper stop for a snack break? And $118,000? What are we ransoming here, a mid-tier sedan?"

Jessica (to the detective): "No forced entry, specific ransom amount, panic cleaning—this screams family secret. Someone panicked after an accident and tried to stage a kidnapping. You’re welcome."

---

[Scene: Jessica Exiting] Jessica grabs her coat and heads for the door.

Detective: "Wait, aren’t you staying to help with the case?"

Jessica (waving): "Oh, no need. I solved it. Besides, the pancakes at my hotel are only served until 10."

[Fade to Credits]

Coverup by idiot parents who thought Burke did it, or one of them convinced the other it was an accident and covered it up to keep the family together.

R61 comes in second to R56, who thinks that note could have been written by an intruder and quacks about "miscarriages of justice" like a sob sister.

As I've said before, and may say again 529 times, nobody is going to jail for this. Somebody got away with murder, an all too common occurrence. Maybe Quentin Tarantino could do 'Once Upon a Time...in Boulder' to postulate what life would be like had this murder never happened.

Maybe after John croaks people will start talking because they won't be able to be sued or harrassed anymore. He's 81, so he's not going to be around for many more years.

Maria who? What?

R65 Steven Avery should though.

Is John Mark Kaur still alive?

Burke was a neglected child filled filled with rage and resentment over the amount of attention that his mommy bestowed to his little sister.

There were reports of his previous violent attacks against JonBenet. If it wasn't this time, it was only a matter of time before he attacked her again.

Is that why Burke would shit all over the house and smear his shit on the walls?

Children who need attention will strive to get attention any way that they can.

Sometimes it takes some shit smearing to get someone's attention.

and I can't tell the difference between the flavor

R74, I meant to say Mia Talerico is pretty enough to play teenage JonBenet in a Tarantino fantasy version of her life story. You know, if she hadn't been brutally murdered. At age 6.

She really does look like her r80

The cop who cried because he was so relieved that Patsy and John were not indicted, why was he so invested?

In Tarantino's 'Once Upon a Time...in Boulder", Patsy could use a flamethrower to fight off the small foreign faction as they were writing the ransom note

r73, he seems very healthy, he could easily live another 25 years.

She looks like a dead 6 year old…you folks are Weird.

R82 he became convinced of the Ramsay’s innocence when they all prayed together. For real.

(We are not a serious country)

a Ramsey did

R86 Ramsey, not Ramsay! You need to show them more respect, perhaps you can pray with John.

Patsy was dressed the next day in the same clothes she had worn while visiting people for Christmas. Such behavior was totally out of character, particularly when the Ramsays were due to fly to their vacation home. The conclusion is that she never went to sleep. Probably exhausted, yet didn't sleep. It is to wonder.

Peeking through her fingers, like a child at a scary movie who still knows it is only a movie, as John brought her daughter's body into view, with his holding JB at a distance with his arms straight out, like she's a hot potato.

Read (or re-read) the note. Hear the words in a woman's soft Southern drawl. It is an angry, attacking letter, very personal, a long-winded attempt to pretend that everything will be okay if only "John" doesn't "try to grow a brain" and contact the police, at which point JB will be "beheaded" (Patsy's being compelled to confess the head wound). Yet contact the police the parents did. But the child was already dead, and there was never a "ransom demand" follow-up.

Linked is a logical analysis of the note. One omitted detail is not only is "business" misspelled as "bussiness," but that the latter word means excessive kissing. Was Patsy accusing John of doing something that shocked her? Because the note originally had "we do NOT (emphasis mine) respect your bussiness," with "not" later crossed out.

Note the booklist at the end, and that "A Mother Gone Bad" is there. J/S

Reading this thread, I can totally understand the witch hysteria of the 17th Century.

Rebecca Nurse did it!

R91 whereas I can understand the many instances of rich, amoral people getting away with murder

[quote] John Ramsey was such an uninvolved parent, that we wouldn't have recognized JonBenet if he passed her on the street. He was away traveling for business for most of his children's lives. He was an good looking rich business man, he didn't lack pussy options and wouldn't have gone after the daughter he barely knew.

I am frequently baffled by the breathtaking stupidity of people who try to apply rational arguments to WHY PEOPLE COMMIT INCEST.

R60 I am thankful you are posting on a gay forum, as it means you have likely not reproduced and passed on your idiocy.

R89 I always do hear it in Patsy's voice. I always thought it was her for the longest time, I still kind of do but I can concede it may be John. And yes, if people here haven't watched "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" on youtube, you should! The scene where he carries up JB's totally rigored out body is wild, he really does hold her so far away and so oddly.

In a movie…not necessarily literally.

That was exactly how John carried her according to witnesses.

It. Was. John.

Stop making it complex. Stop picking the least likely scenarios. Stop denying all the overt actions John took and still takes to profit off the murder he committed.

It. Was. John.

The kid had biological indicators of sexual abuse, including inflamed tissue inside the canal that was about 3 weeks old, and the spot it was in matched where a right-handed person would be inserting their index finger. Her hymen was still intact but partially disconnected. She had vaginal infections non-stop for two years. Her mother brought her yo the doctor almost 20 times for these infections. She wouldn’t wipe herself after the bathroom, she only wanted daddy to wipe her. His wife couldn’t have sex for years, and she already hated sex before she got sick.

He had the means, the motive, the opportunity. It was also known Patsy took sleep meds regularly and while I cannot recall if she claims to have taken them that night, there’s a good chance she did so she could wake up for a huge travel day. Patsy says when she woke up, John was already in the shower, and she never even heard him get up (because he wasn’t in the fucking bed all night).

The note was written by Patsy. Therefore it was one of the three family members. Which one? What circumstances? We can only speculate. Case closed.

R4 wrong. Patsy wrote the note. You're an idiot if yoy can't see that.

She was a non-finalist talent winner…which was the next best thing if you didn’t make Top 10 at Miss America 🤷🏻‍♂️

She lost to a very “perky” Miss Ohio.

Patty is announced at ~1:36:00

Miss Ohio is the winner at ~1:47:00

Video

Anyone who's been tricked into thinking it wasn't a family member is a retard.

At 30:35 they demonstrate how a 10 year old boy could crack a skull with a flashlight. Yikes. The "garotte" used looks very much like a boy scout toggle rope.

Burke did it, and Patsy and John covered it up.

Patsy's Miss America talent was demonstrating how to tie a garrote...

I thought it was creative writing…or a dramatic interpretation!

It was actually a dramatic interpretation from "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie".

There she is, ladies and gentlemen, Patricia Ann Paugh…our new NOT MISS AMERICA

Young and sassy!

John and Patsy's wedding. She had horrible taste in clothing.

Why didn't a super smart guy like John know that inviting people over is going to fuck up the crime scene, obfuscate finger prints, etc? I guess he didn't care.

He looks like Gene Hackman without the personality. Who said he was so smart.

[quote]John and Patsy's wedding. She had horrible taste in clothing.

Patsy is the quintessence of nouveau riche. She spent $700,000 remodelling the house in Boulder and had to be persuaded by her former friend Priscilla White not to wear a mink coat and diamonds on camera for a CNN interview. Patsy spent thousands of dollars on JonBenét's custom pageant costumes and accessories but the Ramseys' housekeeper said that the little girl had to wear Burke's cast-off clothes because she had none of her own.

The house looked like shit. No wonder John was rarely home. The housekeeper said Patsy and the kids were slobs.

Patsy and Jonbenet argued on Christmas Eve because she didn't want to wear a ugly turtleneck to match Patsy's outfit. Even Jonbenet knew she had bad taste.

[quote]The house looked like shit. No wonder John was rarely home. The housekeeper said Patsy and the kids were slobs.

For someone who had a fulltime employee to keep the house clean and tidy the place was a mess. One of the Ramseys' maids mentioned that John harshly criticized Patsy for being a terrible cook and a bad housekeeper. Maybe she thought that sort of thing was beneath her. Patsy dropped a lot of her old friends when the Ramseys first moved to Boulder and courted the local rich folks, joining the Junior League and an Episcopal church because that's where the local gentry were.

What Patsy loved the most was being Mrs. John Ramsey.

I read on some blog that was referenced here many years ago, that she just wasn't one of them in Colorado. She drank slimfast shakes which I guess were gauche, and she didn't exercise and do Colorado type activities, and of course the pageant shit...she was scorned by the local new money types I guess. Poor Patsy.

Patsy was glitzy Southern new money and pretty much the antithesis of the Boulder scene. Patsy's mother Nedra loathed Boulder and called it a hellhole.

Plenty were willing to cozy up to John and tolerated Patsy.

Is Nedra still alive?

Nedra died in 2001.

What's the best book on this case?

If Patsy and Jonbenet were alive today they'd be at Mar-a-Lago.

R125 The Lawrence Schiller one is good, "Perfect Town, Perfect Murder" or something, it's the one the tv movie with Marg Helgenberger is based on.

Patsy humble bragging in her Christmas newsletter. People must have rolled their eyes over this.

Dear Friends & Family,

It's been another busy year at the Ramsey household. Can't believe its almost over and time to start again!

Melinda (24) graduated from Medical College of Georgia and is working in Pediatric ICU at Kennestone Hospital in Atlanta. John Andrew (20) is a Sophomore at the University of Colorado.

Burke is a busy fourth grader where he really shines in math and spelling. He played flag football this fall and is currently on a basketball binge! His little league team was #1. He's lost just about all of his baby teeth, so I'm sure we'll be seeing the orthodontist in 1997!

JonBenet is enjoying her first year in 'real school.' Kindergarten in the Core Knowledge program is fast paced and five full days a week. She has already been moved ahead to first grade math. She continues to enjoy participating in talent and modeling pageants. She was named "America's Royale Tiny Miss" last summer and is Colorado's Little Miss Christmas. Her teacher says she is so outgoing that she will never have trouble delivering an oral book report!

John is always on the go travelling hither and yon. Access recently celebrated its one billion $$ mark in sales, so he's pretty happy! He and his crew were underway in the Port Huron to Mackinac Island yacht race in July, but had to pull out mid way due to lack of wind. (Can you believe that?) But, his real love is the new 'old looking' boat, Grand Season, which he spent months designing.

I spend most of my 'free time' working in the school and doing volunteer work. The Charlevoix house was on the home tour in July and will likely appear in one of the Better Homes & Gardens publications in 1997. On a recent trip to NYC, my friend and I appeared amid the throng of fans on the TODAY show. Al Roker & Bryant actually talked to us and we were on camera for a few fleeting moments!

We are all enjoying continued good health and look forward to seeing you in 1997! One final note ... thank you to all my 'friends' and my dear husband for surprising me with the biggest, most outrageous 40th birthday bash I've ever had! We'll be spending my actual birthday on the Disney Big Red Boat over the new year!

Merry Christmas and much love, The Ramseys

Who says hither and yon? The same person who says hence.

R128 I wonder if there's footage out there of Al and Bryant talking to Patsy and her friend.

Past suggested the Whites could be behind the murder. They were jealous because their daughter Daphne wasn't pretty like Jonbenet.

[quote]One final note ... thank you to all my 'friends' and my dear husband for surprising me with the biggest, most outrageous 40th birthday bash I've ever had! We'll be spending my actual birthday on the Disney Big Red Boat over the new year!

Why did Patsy put the word [italic]friends[/italic] in quotes?

Patsy sounded insufferable in that Christmas letter. Ugh.

Beauty Patsy looks like the Black Dahlia with Marilyn's original blob nose.

When Patsy let people tour the house at Christmas she laid out her Miss West Virginia gown and sash on the bed in the master suite.

And?

r135 is that true?

R128 Oh my god, I forgot about that letter, it was so cringe! Fucking Patsy and her "free time", implying a housewife like her has none. Her whole life was free time. And the bragging about John's company, the yacht, everything, so goddamn tacky.

R132 I'm guessing she put it in quotes because they tricked her with a surprise party. She probably really was pissed, someone like Pats always wants to be camera ready. She needs the perfect sweater set and shitty earrings at all times. Wow, that Melinda daughter went to med school? She's the one who died in the car accident, I think. How sad.

r128 Thats newsletter is a John Waters film waiting to happen.

Beth was the one who died in a car accident.

[quote]R138: Oh my god, I forgot about that letter, it was so cringe!

Oh, fucking dear.

Oh okay, thanks R140. I didn't know he had that many kids. Ha, that reminds me of a letter Dan Broderick wrote to his parents in that style, and Bets found it and rewrote and sent it, it was fucking great. It said something like "Linda and the girls are really getting along and recently went to ____. I'm so lucky, Linda doesn't try and change me and loves me just the way I am" And Betty changed it to "LInda and the girls are really getting along, in fact, Linda just took Leigh to have an abortion! I'm lucky Linda loves me just the way I am, rich and stupid." it was so fucking funny, Dan's parents were not amused.

The letter lowkey makes me like her more. I love an unabashed cunt. Every job I ever had a Patsy Ramsey has loved me.

Melinda, John Andrew, and Beth were from his first marriage.

"John is always on the go travelling hither and yon"

She is sooooo educated country. I can't wait to see what Melissa McCarthy does with the role.

r141 is so cringe

John must have been getting sex somewhere. We know he wasn't getting it from Patsy.

Betty Broderick was bold and hilarious. I think she’ll die in prison, though. You have to express remorse to get paroled.

Did John cheat on his first wife with Patsy or did he meet her after they divorced?

I imagine Patsy flouncing around like Dora Lee in 9 to 5, dropping pencils and calling John stud.

R142 When I was a kid, my dad's relatives used to send out those awful Christmas letters like Patsey did, and they were all about how wonderful and accomplished the kids were, the latest exotic vacations everyone had been on, who recently got promoted at work, blah, blah, blah.

My late, great mother, who had the best sense of humor in the world, absolutely hated those letters. So one year, she decided to write one of her own. In our backyard, we had a tiny tin storage shed, so my mom grabbed our wheelbarrow and put my brother and me in it. Then she grabbed an old worn out coat and put it on, called our next door neighbor, who then took a picture of my brother and I in the wheelbarrow and my mom in her old coat standing in front of the shed.

Then my mom composed a letter talking about how we had fallen on hard times and had to rent out the house and move into the shed. The entire letter was hilarious; she talked about the challenges of showering in the backyard with just the garden hose, among other topics. I wish I had kept the letter. She didn't tell my dad she was doing it, and when my relatives got the letter and called my parents to express their concern, my dad was pissed. But I thought it was the funniest damn thing ever.

Suffice it to say, we never got another one of those standard "aren't we wonderful" Christmas letters again.

r151 I love your mom.

Ha R151! That's so great, I'm glad they were sufficiently chastened. Those letters are just meant to brag, and they're obnoxious.

I want Betty Broderick to get out of prison so she can have her own reality show called "Betty's Had Enough."

Something had been building up in the weeks before Christmas. There were the mysterious phone calls to the pediatrician. A party guest saw Jonbenet sitting on the stairs and crying. Jonbenet said she didn't feel pretty. Priscilla White confronted Patsy because she thought something was wrong with Jonbenet. Patsy said "I am her mother and I have no idea what's happening." The 911 call during the Christmas party and Jonbenet saying she would get a secret visit from Santa on Christmas Eve. If someone could put it all together they'd solve the mystery.

Santa was John

Still can't get her name right...

You know what else is a pain? Getting clubbed in the back of the head just cause you wanted a piece of pineapple.

Oh I forgot to make fun of the Patsy and Al Roker section of her letter. It's just embarrassing that someone would think that was a big deal, and actually brag about it. If she had been cuter/thinner, she could have done society page type shit, and then she wouldn't have been trying to dress her kid up like a tart, if she could wear the stuff herself. And yeah, the sash and crown on her bed...it's all so tacky.

Patsy was a tacky cornpone hick who tried to be "classy."

[quote] if people here haven't watched "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town" on youtube, you should! The scene where he carries up JB's totally rigored out body is wild, he really does hold her so far away and so oddly.

[quote]What's the best book on this case? The Lawrence Schiller one is good, "Perfect Town, Perfect Murder" or something, it's the one the tv movie with Marg Helgenberger is based on.

With how much they appeared on tabloids I'm surprised no one ever bugged the Ramsey's private conversations.

There's more about Nicole and Tom Cruise and a rose than there is between them.

A song about loss. Some of the lyrics seem apropos:

"Truth, lies and in between/ Wrong...cant be undone/ Whisper on a scream/doesn't change a thing/doesn't bring you back/ Blue On Black"

This is the book that I read, by "former lead Boulder Police detective, Steve Thomas." Although, at this point, I do believe that John killed JB, this book brings up some odd things that were happening in the neighborhood. More compelling than the "owl theory" in the "staircase" (Peterson) case.

Why can't they get the DNA of the killer off the ransom note?

R164

I get why they do it but I wish people would stop using her pageant pictures - she was just a natural, cute little girl without all that crap.

R142, that's hilarious, was that in Twelfth of Never?

R165, a lot of people touched the letter. Besides, reliable DNA comes from bodily fluids. DNA from skin cells, "touch DNA," can be sketchy because skin cells drift through the air and from surface to surface.

R167 It sure was! Another reason to reread Ms. Stumbo's perfect Betty book.

I just put on Perfect Murder, Perfect Town. I forgot Ronny Cox plays John, it makes me sad because I love Ronny. But yeah the scene where he finds and awkwardly carries JB up is what I want to see first.

R166 Yeah she was a cute little girl. I think she got a bicycle for Christmas too, which highlights that she was just an ordinary kid. Now whether Patsy would have let her ride it or not due to scrapes and cuts from falling showing up in her pageant garb, we'll never know.

I forgot that Patsy was immediately throwing people under the bus that morning, starting with her maid. What a bitch. This movie makes John look furtive and sneaky.

R94 illustrates what all the invading fraus think about gay men.

All these tragic fraud are so jealous of Patsy they can barely stand it. Tragic.

R40, the Boulder Police Department themselves went through the window so you are incorrect.

I know you don’t like to read, watch, or listen to things that contradict what you already believe, but then you shouldn’t state things with authority.

From the judicial ruling in the libel case against the Ramseys:

“Further, the Boulder Police conducted experiments that showed a person could enter the basement playroom through the center window. (SMF ¶ 133; PSMF ¶ 133.)”

Again, the window was broken from the inside and there were undisturbed cobwebs.

If you are familiar with Forensic Files, this is when the cops drag the homeowner by the collar down to the station for a twelve hour interrogation.

R23, there was no snow so John wouldn’t have had to worry about footprints in the snow.

Again, from the Carnes ruling cited above, which both sides agree is “undisputed”:

“Moreover, contrary to media reports that had discredited an intruder theory, based on the lack of a "footprint in the snow," there was no snow covering the sidewalks and walkways to defendants' home on the morning of December 26, 1996. (SMF ¶ 39; PSMF ¶ 139.) Hence, a person walking along these paths would have left no footprints.”

Listen freak, it wasn't an intruder. Anyone with half a brain could see that the parents were guilty AF.

R175, once again, you are wrong. The broken window was broken from the outside. It could have been broken still from when John broke it in the summer or newly broken. Regardless, there were other access points.

Again, from the Carnes ruling, which the police and Ramseys agree is undisputed fact.

“First, defendants have indicated that their house was not secure during the night of December 25, 1997, and that they had not turned their security alarm on. (SMF ¶ 127; PSMF ¶ 127.)

In addition, at least seven windows and one door were found "open"[31] on the morning of December 26, 1997. (SMF ¶ 126; PSMF ¶ 126.)

A number of windows were accessible from the ground level, including a window-well, with removable grate, over three windows that opened into a playroom area of the basement. (SMF ¶ 128; PSMF ¶ 128.) This windowwell is located on the back side of the house, hidden from the front of the house and from neighbors. (SMF ¶ 130; PSMF ¶ 130.)

There is likewise undisputed evidence of a disturbance in this window-well area: specifically the leaves and white styrofoam packing peanuts that had pooled in the window-well appeared to have been cleared from, or brushed to either side of, the center window's sill in the well. (SMF ¶ 132; PSMF ¶ 132.)

In addition, this center window had a broken pane and was found open on the morning of December 26, with a suitcase and a glass shard from the window pane underneath it. (SMF ¶ 135; PSMF ¶ 135.)[32]

Green foliage was also found tucked under the movable grate over the window well, indicating that the grate had been opened and closed recently. (SMF ¶ 131; PSMF ¶ 131.)

Further, the Boulder Police conducted experiments that showed a person could enter the basement playroom through the center window. (SMF ¶ 133; PSMF ¶ 133.)

Moreover, leaves and debris, consistent with the leaves and debris found in the window well, were found on the floor under the broken window suggesting that someone had actually entered the basement through this window. (SMF ¶ 136; PSMF ¶ 136.)

Likewise, a leaf and white styro-foam packing peanuts, consistent with the leaves and packing peanuts found pooled in the window-well, were found in the wine-cellar room of the basement where JonBenet's body was discovered. (SMF ¶ 134; PSMF ¶ 134.)

This evidence is consistent with an inference that whoever entered through this window ultimately walked to the winecellar room at some point.

R177, perhaps you find it freakish to seek out and accept information that doesn’t conform to what you already believe. Sorry, I don’t agree.

Why are you so angry and invested in the Ramsey’s guilt?

Because they're guilty AF. Looks like you're working for John's PR firm.

The ransom note alone was bonkers.

The Ramsey's PR guy made it over to this thread. Good to see you, John!

A Reddit thread with quotes from people who knew the Ramseys and they all agreed John was weird and creepy.

But rich! And threw good parties!

r178 It's not possible for a person to squeeze through that tiny window without destroying the cobwebs in the bottom corner of the frame. Grow a brain!

It was Christmas eve wasn't it? Wouldn't the parents be up putting presents under the tree after the kids went to bed? Or did they already do that?

It was Christmas night.

Damn, I forgot Kris Kristofferson is in the movie, looking good. And the guy who plays Jeff Shapiro from the Enquirer is that ugly weird guy who was ubiquitous in 80's and 90's tv.

R178, you think you know everything, but I know a few things too. JOHN told the police that *he* had secured the house before they went to bed. He walked around with the first responders and they checked all the windows and looked the doors for signs of entry — JOHN said the house still appeared secure to them right then and there. He agreed the doors had not been punched open. Later, he changed his story.

The snow. There WAS snow with no tracks, a first responder noted this, but by the time the crime scene photographer arrived, the light dust of snow had melted in the warming sunlight as it rose. So there’s no evidence of it, but it was noted by police that there were zero footprints around the perimeter.

On entering the basement window….could it be done? YES, but only through some yoga moves and only a man with a very small frame, say 150 lbs tops. And how would any man do that while not disturbing any of the grit or cobwebs, hhhhhmmmm? And he entered from down there, had to move through the entire house, scoop her out of her bed and trust she wouldn’t scream? Are you even listening to yourself?

Kids r178 likely works for John. I’m not saying ignore them, but listen with great discernment. Posting John’s lies from court records doesn’t make them the truth — they’re just the lies he told as he perjured himself, nothing more, nothing less.

Read the holy trinity of the case, then you’ll have a great understanding, plus that blog which is *excellent* too, all evidence-based. A Candy Rose used to house all the evidence too, it’s ancient AF no idea if it’s even still around.

R188, your snootiness does not excuse "holy trinity." Were you attempting "grail" or something else at least partly understandable?

Oh, dear.

"AF"? After all your effort you toss this in? Drinking does not excuse it, especially since your verbosity hardly suggests you needed to rush to get to the toilet in time.

Oh, dear.

R51 agree. After watching the doc, I’m convinced they didn’t do it. And the way the Ramsey were persecuted—detailed in the doc—by the media and cops was disgusting.

I love Patsy Ramsey from Boulder, Colo threads as much as the next DLer, but surprised so many of you are so certain they killed her.

At one point, I thought it might had been an accident or the Burke got mad and hit her over the head. But there’s absolutely no evince that they did it.

I had no idea how badly the cops fucked up until I watched the doc. It actually was the DA who refused to indict them because he thought the Grand Jury was wrong in their opinion.

r190 you're an idiot.

R190 It's hard to trust you because I feel like you're the same agenda pushing person who started the other non sanctioned part 2 thread. I don't think the Ramseys were persecuted by the media and cops, not until after they refused to talk to the cops and then went on fucking CNN. That was ridiculous, and of course people were put off by that.

My mom taught. at an inner city high school in the 80's. Her best friend there was a black woman whose son had been murdered, in her house, by a student. When the Ramsey case happened we talked about it. She said the cops brought her in immediately to question and clear her. I said something like it was horrible the cops had dragged her in and talked to her in the wake of this horrible tragedy, on the same day. And she told me she wasn't mad, she was glad to be cleared so that they could move on and talk to other people. She said the way the Ramseys were being so cagy was suspicious, and she couldn't believe they wouldn't just talk to the cops and clear themselves.

Despite all the fuck-ups a grand jury still indicted both John and Patsy. The indictments weren't disclosed to the public until 2013 after reporters filed a lawsuit against the Boulder DA's office. Keep in mind that grand juries have access to evidence that the public hasn't seen. The DA Alex Hunter supposedly decided not to prosecute because he believed that the case could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (which is probably true). One of the grand jurors made a statement several years ago on an episode of ABC News' 20/20:

[quote]The juror said he believes that there was enough evidence to indict John and Patsy Ramsey for a crime, but he doesn't think they would have been convicted. "There is no way that I would have been able to say, 'Beyond a reasonable doubt, this is the person,'" the juror said. "And if you are the district attorney, if you know that going in, it's a waste of taxpayer dollars to do it." Still, he says the grand jury did recommend charges against John and Patsy Ramsey, indicating the jurors believed they placed JonBenet in a situation resulting in her death.

[quote] the jurors believed they placed JonBenet in a situation resulting in her death.

Which is very different from saying that they killed her. What exactly was "the situation?" Nobody seems to know.

Also, the weird thing in the ransom letter, "we respect your business but not the country it serves"...What the fuck is that? These kidnappers are going to behead his kid but they respect his business? It's like he wanted to make sure to give his business props, and it's fucking odd.

But they don’t know r194, solely because John did such a thorough job in blurring the facts. If memory serves, one of the trinity books has a chapter called “The Evolution of John’s Story, and it breaks down, lie for lie, just how frequently John completely changes his story, adding, embellishing, removing, changing, I mean it’s cra-cra how much he lies.

Patsy only lies twice, and her lies are white lies — John’s lies are blatant and bold and audacious. This is in the book that says Burke did it, but it’s still worth reading if only for this chapter on John’s lies! No other book does that.

[quote] Also, the weird thing in the ransom letter, "we respect your business but not the country it serves"...What the fuck is that? These kidnappers are going to behead his kid but they respect his business? It's like he wanted to make sure to give his business props, and it's fucking odd.

Yes! I forgot about that detail in the ransom note. That "we respect your business" part, along with the exact dollar amount of his Christmas bonus: John had a hand in that note!

Even in the ransom note they couldn't resist bragging.

^^So true!!

Ha ha R198. Yes. I'm surprised it didn't say, "in Patsy's precious little free time, perhaps she could drop off the attache' full of money, only after picking up Burke from school where he remains on the honor roll. SBTC!"

Make sure the attache is John's brand new Louis Vuitton!

Sorry, R196, not going to "dive deeper" (god, I hate that expression). Already WAY too invested in this. And, I don't really care who did it, unless there is a conviction (there won't be): she is just as dead no matter who you believe did it.

Aww R202, this was the first record album I bought.

Get the widow on the set.

It’s clear to me they were trying to make the ransom note have terrorist undertones despite it mainly being a kidnapping for money. Yet the child was found in their basement straggled to death. I will say it again, the ransom note makes the intruder theory complete collapse on itself. And no noticeable signs of someone roaming in frigid snowy weather. Were they Houdini?

I'll give you 3 guesses who and what "the situation" was that the grand jury thought the negligent Ramseys placed JonBenet around that lead to her demise. And the first 2 don't count.

The charges were negligence and not homicide because they’d knew they’d never be able to prove exactly which parent did it.

AlienOnMars and your anonymous ...........Go fuck yourselves

R111 Patsy is rather pretty in your pic. Too bad she gained weight, got a "Karen" bob haircut, and dressed terribly. She could have been a bombshell. She didn't kill Jonbenet. It was dad. The fact the his story was that he had carried her to her bedroom from the car as she was asleep. It was then that the murder happened. This case is not complicated.

Patsy’s Miss America class is cursed.

Ellen Wight Miss Oklahoma jumped out of her hotel room when the hotel caught on fire. She thought holding pillows on her head would protect her. It didn’t and she died of a head injury.

Bunnie Holbert Miss Arkansas died at 55 after dealing with a lifetime of drug and alcohol issues and was homeless at various times in her life.

Mary Donnelly Miss Mississippi is the wife of talent agent Sam Haskell. Their son Sam Haskell lll murdered his wife and inlaws and dismembered them.

I see a little Norma Jeane Dougherty in young Patsy.

Since this is the home of pointless bitchery, let's speculate on what would have become of JonBenet, you know, had she not been brutally murdered. At age 6. In her own home.

As a multiple pageant winner, she could have easily moved on to modeling, specializing in swimsuits and underwear, naturally. After that, auditioning for Disney/Nickelodeon roles as the sassy little sister. But the she's just 16 when her mother dies and she's lost, never having to manage her own life before. Alcohol, drugs, multiple rehabs, maybe OnlyFans or porn at 18. After disappearing for a few years, she returns to the public eye after Netflix airs a documentary "exposing" the child beauty pageant industry. She co-authors a best seller about her life and they make a movie about it, starring Margot Robbie as adult JonBenet and Ryan K. Armstrong as the teenage version.

JonBenet is now living outside Atlanta with her husband and fraternal twins (the girl looks a lot like she did when she was that age, but NO pageants for her!)

I don't have 2 kids so I'll never know the rationale of a supposed parent cover up, but I have 2 adorable little dogs! If either one killed the other accidentally... I guess it would be awful.

It would look so innocent and I would panic thinking the dog police are on the way to apprehend it. I'd feel bad for it. I might stage a little decoy scene and ransom, demand the bag of bones, and insinuate a giant dog broke in and did it.

Given her family's wealth, R211, I doubt that JonBenet would have had to do porn or OnlyFans in order to support herself. From what I have read JonBenet did not enjoy participating in pageants and showed signs of increasing resistance to being turned into her mother's clone so she may have gone into a completely different direction with her life and eventually become an interesting and independent young woman.

She'd be Trump's press secretary.

Jonbenet had been circulating a copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves amongst the other little pageant queens, so she was likely a closet feminist.

She and Patsy would be partying at Maralago.

R211 No, not even close. She went to Chico State to be away from her family. She majors in Philosophy, of course. While there, she starts dating a crunchy hippy chicks. They're still together now, they run a no kill dog shelter, after she found out what her mom had done to little Jacques, she vowed to never buy a dog from a breeder, and to never trust her mom again. She forgave Patsy when her cancer came back, and was there when she died. She keeps John at a distance, especially since he threatened to disown her for dating Jenna. Luckily, Jenna's family has old money from a medical device her great, great, great, great grandfather invested, and they live on her trust fund. She's happy now, and she laughs to herself when she thinks she used to a prim pageant girl. She doesn't own a dress or heels these days. She and Jenna are looking into adoption.

R213

Forgot where I read this, but she apparently had a very cute sense of humor and a fun personality and was witty for a young’un.

Yes, I've read that too, R218. Sounded pretty outgoing for such a little kid. I think it was one of the Ramseys' housekeepers who said that JonBenet was the only person in that house who had any sense of joy.

R214, I have it on good authority that she would keep the two steamers on rotation for Hope Hicks when they steamed his pants.

R38 that shit is a maze only the homeowners will know about.

Burke was interviewed by a police detective in 1998. The interviews took place over the course of three days. On the final day the detective asked Burke if there was anything he wanted to ask him. Burke said yes, pointed to the detective’s wristwatch, and asked: "Is that a Rolex?"

[quote]R188 And he entered from down there, had to move through the entire house, scoop her out of her bed and trust she wouldn’t scream? Are you even listening to yourself?

Lou Smit believed the perp used a stun gun to subdue her, based on the two marks on her neck.

Even though there's a lot of hostility in this thread toward an intruder theory, I just thought of this: if Patsy and John composed the ransom note, wouldn't they have tried to give it more validity by pretending to take it seriously, and wouldn't they try to convince the police to take it seriously? Patty became hysterical when she realized their daughter was gone, naturally, but it sounds like neither she nor John were pretending to believe it was real to. They, too, seemed to regard it as the ramblings of a psychopath and didn't seem to think it was a professional kidnapping. In other words, if they took the time to craft it, why wouldn't they have tried to sell it to law enforcement?

^to believe it was real *PERIOD* (delete "to").

R223, and Lou Smit was an utter crackpot, despised by *all* the cops as a sell-out weirdo. He had prayer circles with the Ramseys….need I say more LMAO?

In addition, Smit is the sole promoter of the stun gun theory. In fact, the marks on her neck lined up precisely with the toy train tracks that were all over the basement playroom, including nearby where her dead body had lain as it emptied the bladder etc. So someone likely moved the body to clean up the mess from the body by placing her fresh corpse onto the train tracks on the rug so he could clean up the concrete and launder her original pajamas.

That is why she was in new underpants from an unopened package from *upstairs* in her bedroom. See how silly you sound? An intruder who decided to put fresh underpants on her (that were way too large), and went to the trouble of sneaking back upstairs while her corpse lays in the basement? In what world does an intruder behave in this manner?

Anything Lou Smith says must be considered garbage. Trump has ETTD, here we have ESTD. He’s no good, so all of his thoughts are pure garbage. And if his evidence stood on its own, respected investigators, forensic experts, scientists, academics, would be pointing toward the evidence — not lawyers who aren’t thugs/goons/raving lunatics with a JD or “PI’s” who are considered clowns by their own peers like Lou Smit.

The stun gun was debunked *ages* ago, by experts with stun guns, it could not be replicated, UNLESS you are named Lou Smit. The marks were from the edges of the train track pieces. I don’t know how dead she was when her body was placed on them, she may have been in the in between from when he struck her head but her heat was still beating, which would explain the bruising from the tracks too. These weren’t wooden train tracks, more old school, kind of like this:

Here’s an actual piece of the real track from Kolar’s book where he shows you what the imprint might look like from it. Look familiar yet?

[quote] R226 Lou Smit was an utter crackpot, despised by *all* the cops

Smit was well-respected among law enforcement throughout the years. One of the lead detectives on the case, Steve Thomas, disagreed with the intruder theory but still liked Lou Smit.

[quote]But Mr. [Steve]Thomas, certain of his interpretation of the evidence, still regards Mr. Smit as a friend...

[quote]R226 See how silly you sound?

I sound silly because I gave one explanation for how someone could subdue a victim, as believed by a seasoned detective?

When people are hit with a stun gun they usually scream and thrash around. This isn't consistent with a kidnapping scenario in which you want to get in and get out as quickly and quietly as possible. In any event the kidnapping theory has massive problems for reasons explained here and all the other JonBenet threads.

If the perpetrator were not a kidnapper but a sadistic child rapist/murderer who wanted to intimidate his victim in order to force her to comply, it is logical to assume that he would use something that would not call attention to himself. A knife does that job very well and unlike a stun gun is readily obtainable. Wasn't Burke's Swiss Army knife found in the basement?

R228, let me help you out with the quote in full context:

But Mr. Thomas, certain of his interpretation of the evidence, still regards Mr. Smit as a friend ******but ultimately dismisses him in the book 'as a major problem' whose views went a long way toward what the author contends was deferential treatment of the Ramseys by prosecutors in the district attorney's office. That stance, more than anything, Mr. Thomas writes, led to his resignation from the police force.******

I’m too lazy to get into a posting war, but Lou was despised because he was clearly in her bag for the Ramsey’s because they were a) fellow Christians b) they were wealthy c) he knew he could make money helping them fight the case and d) he knew how to blow holes in the cops case and to leverage their mistakes because he was one of them. Never underestimate the power of a religious nut with a vendetta and a wounded ego. Lou had something to prove to the boys in blue on this case. He failed miserably at that.

These threads have made me curious and I just found this Larry King interview from 2000 with Steve Thomas (a lead detective who quit the force in anger because the D.A. wasn't prosecuting Patsy fast enough and who wrote a book accusing her of murder) and the Ramseys. Larry King sounded dumb and sensational, as usual, so you'll lose a few brain cells listening to him, but otherwise it's kind of interesting. I was unimpressed with Steve Thomas overall and he strikes me as arrogant and not as smart as he thinks he is. I was surprised by this because I would have assumed he would be very articulate and explain evidence for his theory and reasons why he wrote his book. He seems like the type who dismisses evidence that doesn't agree with his theory, and a cop shouldn't do that. I was also surprised that the Ramseys don't seem deceptive or like the awful people everyone says they are/were. They seem weary after having to deal with a hostile police force, leaks from the police department and the National Enquirer-type coverage for four years after their daughter was killed.

R232 I see this segment completely differently. I see an experienced, level-headed cop doing his best to calmly explain his theory of how JonBenet was murdered, while an agitated couple, clearly not wanting the cop to tell his side of the story, constantly obfuscate, interrupt, and insult, hoping to quell anything the cop might have to say that would point the finger toward them.

If it wasn't for the meddling police dept and the lying media, JonBenet would be alive today!

Steve Thomas comes across as disingenuous and unlikable in the recent Netflix documentary despite his movie star looks (or because of it). Look at this mouth.

835 replies (plus the ignored thread) and I still don't know who killed JonBenet or why. Everybody has access to the same evidence, yet come up with wildly divergent conclusions while dissing those who disagree, which of course is why no jury would ever convict anyone short of matching DNA. Reasonable doubt.

The Ramseys came across as insincere and creepy in every interview I've ever seen. I remember their first appearance on CNN in 1997. My partner is a clinical and forensic psychologist and he watched Patsy with interest. After the interview ended he said, "I have no idea who killed that little girl but I'm telling you now the mom is crazy."

Sociopathic men are attracted to crazy women because they view them as easier to control / gaslight / dominate.

Patsy was a pretty trashy choice of spouse for someone like John. You’d expect him to be with a pretty, well-mannered southern blonde from a nice family. There are acres of them in Atlanta (where he was living when he met Patsy.)

I’ve said this in other JBR threads, but this suggests no “quality” woman would have John. You have to wonder why.

R235 We don't know if no jury would convict them, though, I think one would have. Too bad we never got to find out.

Was Patsy John's bit on the side when he was married to his first wife? Patsy seems like the type.

I don't think so R240, but maybe...They were neighbors, right? When he had his bachelor pad? But maybe he put her up there and then moved there too.

For a guy who's been married 3 times and is still married at 80, lack of interested women never seemed to be John's problem.

Lack of interest from QUALITY women is John’s problem.

Wife number three also comes off as a nutter in the Netflix doc.

Patsy was a cornpone hayseed with hideous taste in decor.

He’s rich. He can find a wife.

If y'all thought Patsy's 1996 Christmas letter was bad, you should've read the one she sent out in 1997:

Dear Ramsey 'friends' and family: Listen carefully! We have your attention now, don't we!?

We write to you this year from Atlanta, our new/old home, as part of a very important holiday announcement! The stockings have been hung with glee, the tree adorned, and the house is filled with Christmas cheer as well as the Holy Spirit. But there is a twist! Oh yes, this year, we are demanding…A HOLIDAY FILLED WITH NOTHING BUT JOY AND LAUGHTER! Don't try and resist! (More on that in a bit)

It should probably be acknowledged that this time last year, I mentioned all of the exciting plans we had for the upcoming year, including some fantastic family trips. Well, we didn’t exactly get to take that Disney cruise. (Don’t ask me about it, it’s complicated, people have questions). On the plus side, we're now thick as thieves with famed television host Larry King! Move over, Al Roker!

You know the Ramsey's love family, right? Oh, how we adore it!

John has been a good boy this year. Unfortunately no one at Lockheed Martin seems to have noticed this fact, as he's been more hither than yon over this past annum. And hence, John's Christmas bonus isn't what it once was. Luckily our Christmas gift giving burden was lighter this year, but I digress!

Burke is...well, still Burke. That child! I'll tell you. Burke continues to enjoy building his toy train sets, practicing his golf swing (OUTSIDE!) among other boy things. Boys! You can't live with them, you can't...well, never mind!

Patsy, as you can probably tell, has graduated to typing letters on the computer now! No more handwritten letters for me--no, Sir! I suppose it's only fitting for the wife of a successful computer executive to graduate to using one of these newfangled machines! I've been spending quite a little bit of my newfound free time with Mavis Beacon! Glory!

Family and 'friends'--John, Burke and I would like to cordially invite you to a formal Christmas Eve dinner at our new Atlanta home. Your presence is requested at 7PM SHARP for the Christmas Eve festivities! You know the address. DON'T BE LATE! Your compliance is essential to ensure the smooth continuation of holiday cheer. Dinner will be gourmet and catered, of course. And a mystery dessert--don’t ask what it is, just trust us. If you try to take seconds, there will be consequences--of a VERY merry sort!

Dress to impress! And absolutely NO PAJAMAS this year, please! (We had a situation last time).

DO NOT FAIL US. WE WILL BE EXPECTING YOU, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

With warm holiday cheer and demanding Christmas wishes,

The Ramsey Family

[quote]I wish people would stop using her pageant pictures - she was just a natural, cute little girl without all that crap.

I've always said 90% of JonBenet's beauty could be wiped off with a wet Kleenex!

I always assumed the parents were involved based upon a vague understanding of the situation and the general consensus in the public square. But after reading these threads and then looking into a couple of things more specifically (I haven't seen the Netflix documentary), and remembering a 20/20 or Dateline episode many years ago featuring the Lou Smit intruder theory, I find myself giving the parents the benefit of the doubt, mostly because there seems to be a well-entrenched mob mentality surrounding this case. I never followed it, but I now find curious that those who think the parents were involved seem to refuse to consider any evidence that might exonerate them or point to a stranger. I don't get that. They weren't indicted or tried for the murder.

I came across this last night and found it interesting. The Ramseys seemed more than willing to answer questions throughout the years while tabloids and the public were intent on their guilt and refused to believe them. What else could they do? In this video, they're correcting some false information that was out there, and their answers sound honest and reasonable:

r248 The Ramseys lawyered up immediately and waited months to speak to the police. I will say that the housekeeper Linda Hoffman and her drunken husband seemed pretty suspicious. If it was an intruder it was probably them. She had intimate knowledge of the the house's layout, knew Patsy's handwriting, and was in need of money. Linda often said "She's so pretty, aren't you scared she might be kidnapped?". They found one of Patsy's notepads, duct tape, a string tied to a stick at Linda's house, but she willingly turned all this over.

I found the Madtv Hollywood Squares parody of the Ramseys at 4:36. Michael McDonald's stare was so chilling.

Maybe it was less usual back in the day but now everyone with money immediately lawyers up. And who can blame them.

R249, re: Linda Hoffman. Please read Paragraph #2 under "Background."

Hoffman, the housekeeper, was cleared.

R251 It was less usual for sure. But also weird that you didn't want to fucking just talk to the cops, Ramseys, and get yourself off the list,

In the Larry King interview, the Ramseys claimed that they went to the police department and gave them everything they asked for, including blood samples, and they were described as being cooperative. The police stated they were not interviewing them yet (during the first few days) because of their emotional state. Which would make sense if the police were presuming innocence and giving them time to deal with the shock and horror of what had just happened.

[quote]If Patsy and John were covering for Burke, the ransom note could have been brief and to the point - not the batshit missive that it was.

People who lie tend to over explain. And the older people get, the longer they want to talk about every detail.

R254, the best quality evidence is obtained as soon as possible after the crime. This includes taking witness statements. Waiting only allows witnesses time either to amend their stories or forget vital information. The detectives in this case should have interviewed each person who was inside the house separately on December 26, the day JonBenet's body was found. In fact one of the detectives asked John Ramsey if he, Patsy, and Burke would agree to be interviewed by police at a local hotel on December 26 and John declined, saying that he had just lost his child and needed some time.

[quote] the best quality evidence is obtained as soon as possible after the crime.

If the intruder theory is true (I said "if"), then John and Patsy's interviews would contain the same information they already told the police the day before. If it all happened while they slept, they only know what happened when they woke up and called 911. The shock and grief would probably prohibit them from sitting in a sterile hotel room being questioned/interrogated that soon. (Again, this is if they didn't do it.) They've said that they told police everything they knew and gave the police everything they asked for. It sounds like they weren't acting like people with something to hide and, from their perspective, they weren't hindering the investigation.

[quote]They've said that they told police everything they knew

Quoting myself to add that this probably included information about anyone they knew who might do this or if any suspicious activity had taken place prior to that night, etc.

Telling the police everything they knew once is not how a complex investigation works. As the police gather more information, they have followup questions that the Ramseys were not cooperative/too lawyered up to answer

"if the police were presuming innocence and giving them time to deal with the shock and horror of what had just happened."

Why would they do that? Are they stupid?

Even cops in a small town police department (Boulder at that time only had a population of about 100,000 people) were aware in 1996 that the most likely suspects in the murder of a child at the child's home would be someone within the family, which is why it's crucial to interview everyone in the household separately no matter how grief stricken they are. I spoke with a retired police detective about the Ramsey case not long after it became national news and he said succinctly "Daddy did it."

R260, the kidnapping note worked. When the police arrived they did not understand what they were dealing with a murder scene and possible/likely killers. They were very sympathetic to the Ramseys, who were wealthy people and had invited a group of friends over to be “supportive.” The police were extremely deferential to the Ramseys and nothing was handled the way it should have been.

So the only people to be taken in by the ransom note, EVER, just happen to be very same ones who are tasked with solving the crime?

[quote]I spoke with a retired police detective about the Ramsey case not long after it became national news and he said succinctly "Daddy did it."

He couldn't have possibly known this. Good thing we have due process. Rushing to judgement isn't a good thing and it creates an early bias which is unfair to police suspects.

People are allowed to express their personal opinions, R264. The detective I mentioned wasn’t affiliated with the case and was simply giving me his take on it after I asked him about it.

Do we know what criminal psychologists analyzed and hypothesized regarding the “why” of the ransom letter? FBI profilers?

If RDI: An excuse to leave Boulder was the goal. If the Ramsey’s did it, the ransom note gave them a reason to leave town - because John was being targeted and his entire family was in potential danger. Without the ransom note and foreign faction theory, investigators would have expected the Ramsey’s to stay close by to help with the investigation.

If an IDI: the letter was intentionally written to mimic the writings and ramblings of Patsy to make her look guilty and direct the investigation away from the perpetrator. Writing the note was entertaining for the perpetrator. They found humor in mocking the Ramseys and felt self importance in knowing specific details about the Ramsey’s life. Suspects that come to mind would be : 1. a lower level employee at John’s company who may have formed an obsession with the Ramsey family and quietly stalked the family for months or years 2. A young adult relative of someone who knows intimate details about the Ramseys who likely complained about the Ramsey family in the presence of this young adult (ie housekeeper, hair dresser, costumer, tailor, chef, neighbor, or friend) 3. A middle aged female with ADHD composed the letter and felt empowered and creative doing so - spouse of perpetrator.

Some speculate that the author of the ransom note was most likely a young person. The references to movie dialogue sound like something an immature fantasy-prone person would write and not an older adult. There’s a theory someone posted on Websleuths involving a college-age guy who used to babysit for JonBenét and Burke.

I remember Polly Klaas' father, the little girl who was kidnapped from her home and murdered in 1993, vocally speaking out against the Ramseys lawyering up and not talking to the cops.

He said when his daughter was kidnapped, he willingly talked to the police and gave them any information he could to help them find his daughter. He wasn't worried about whether he would be a suspect. He said people who care about their children do whatever it takes to help solve a crime.

Yes R268, that's what my mom's friend told me when her son was killed.

Sure, a young, verbose, dramatic person wrote the note, and always made sure to compliment John a lot in it.

[quote] He wasn't worried about whether he would be a suspect.

Well, he should have been. I just read articles by more than one author that said, during a crime investigation, DO NOT talk to the cops without a lawyer if you are even remotely considered a suspect. Years ago, the father of little Michelle Dorr confessed to her murder under police questioning. He didn't do it, but was still a suspect after recanting. They'll believe you if you confess, but won;t if you deny doing it. They caught the real culprit, who was also convicted of killing a young woman. He only got 30 years for each murder, BTW.

Sounds like the father of little Michelle Dorr was more concerned about getting justice for his daughter than any potential negative things happening to him. The opposite of the Ramseys

Who the fuck would confess if they didn't do it? It's so ridiculous. And now you will say that I don't understand and the cops can trick you, etc. I could never fucking be tricked into saying I killed someone. Little Michelle's dad sounds special, like Michael Crowe.

R272 I'm on the parents had to have done it side, but I can see a seriously aggrieved parent 'confess' to being responsible for the death of their child out of extremely misplaced blame. Some overly emotional person could easily rationalize that if 'I didn't do X, they'd still be here' making them culpable in their minds. Survivors guilt, is the term that applies there.

R272, you may be shocked by what police misconduct can accomplish.

Why Did NETFLIX Leave THIS Out?

R275 I still don’t hear anything other than Patsy saying “help me, Jesus!” several times. Tape noise can be manipulated to sound like anything. Also why lie about Burke not being present during the call? They act like Patsy forgot to hang up, implying she didn’t realize they could still be heard, but it does hang up within a few seconds. In reality I think she took the phone away from her ear, not listening to the 911 dispatcher, started chanting to Jesus and then hung up.

Ted Bundy should have just started chanting “help me Jesus, oh dear Lordy, Help me Jesus” with a big gaudy sanctimonious cross and he would be still out there today helping out hitchhikers

R1, John wasn’t pointing the finger at Burke. He sued CBS for $400 million after their special alleging it was Burke. CBS didn’t even try to defend their journalism. They settled immediately.

Copy of the Lawsuit filed.

R278, we only know that they settled, we don’t know on what terms or why. Discovery in that case might have been interesting.

I get confused and feel some sympathy for the Ramseys, but the bottom line is that Patsy wrote that fucking letter…I can literally hear her say it out loud. The note is filled with Patsy-like quotes and turns of phrase. I don’t know whether the Ramseys seem honest or not, but that letter is the bottom line for me. And I think Patsy snapped and was responsible for the skull being smashed, but John tried to stage the rape and killing of Jonbenet, without him realizing that he was the one who actually killed her. Patsy thought that the initial blow was fatal, and it wasn’t.

The CBS lawsuit wasn't settled immediately. CBS must have soon realized the discovery phase wasn't worth much just to get more lies and confusion from the Ramsey family. No new information about the case has come out since that program.

Do you, when watching various interviews, believe that Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter or else participated in the cover-up? Does she come across as credible to you?

R283, most people can't tell if someone is lying or not. We all believe that we can, but we can't. Demeanor and "body language" isn't evidence.

Oh, THIS seems promising.

🙄

Not.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R286 LOL!

Yeah, I'm sure it's legit. She begs for him to call her in the letter, he does, and she doesn't answer.

I hope he left a message. I'm sure she'll call back.

R283 She did come off as completely stoned and in some state of shock. But whether it was over her husbands involvement or just what she'd done, remains to be seen.

R267 That darn small faction.

Saw a post on Reddit claiming that Patsy was completely fucked up on diet pills and killed JonBenet during a drug-induced psychotic episode, which has to be the most John Waters scenario yet.

Maybe it was a Colombian Drug Cartel.

Yes, Patsy didn't like paying full price for her Xanax, so she went with an outside distributor

R267, Utterly ridiculous. One small example: This babysitter knew John's bonus? Another: IF there existed such a babysitter, rest assured he was investigated.

Finally, no. No "young person" wrote one word here. Read the GD missive!

R293, I don't agree with that theory either-- I was just repeating something I had read. My guess is that given the weird histrionic style of the note Patsy was the most likely author.

Every anniversary it seems John trots out some purported new "theory." This year it's, "I received a letter from a lady who said her ex-husband is the killer."

I wonder if he had companions shouting, "Acid is groovy!"? Maybe a long-haired hippie in a floppy hat?

Does John receive compensation for sharing these stories and providing interviews?

Some might say that John is quite the shrewd businessman.

"Jonbenet, INC."

I respect his business but not the country it serves

R295 How'd you know I was there? My companion in the floppy hat died a few years back but I still want to kill the pigs!

Would Patsy have gone out of her way to mention— even compliment— John’s business in the note?

That seems like a John thing.

Patsy strikes me as one of those dizzy hausfrauen who barely knows where the money comes from. If she thinks of the business at all, it’s to resent the amount of John’s time and attention the business occupies.

The note really is hysterical

They couldn’t find the body of their lost daughter in a playroom of their own home for hours till the police arrive for a reveal.

Implausible

Maybe they thought she had been kidnapped or were trying to make everyone believe that's what they thought.

R295, I think it’s one of two things: either he wants to get paid for interviews or he wants to keep attention on his daughter’s murder in the hope it will be solved before he dies.

No one should ever speak to the police without an attorney present.

R282 the lawsuit was $750 million. You think a major corporation like CBS wouldn’t go to court to defend themselves if they had truth on their side?

No r296, John wasn’t paid to participate.

““John Ramsey agreed to sit down with us, did not ask to be paid, and was not paid — we don’t pay our subjects — and asked for no editorial input. No questions were off limits.”

Sure he wasn't R308. Not directly, maybe his wife was paid instead. Why don't you keep your Netflix shilling to the other thread?

Are you the sheriff here r309? Sorry, straight fraud don’t get to police gay men’s involvement here on the Datalounge.

Frau not fraud.

These bossy fish-stinking fraus think they have a god given right to speak up anywhere they go. No one wants to hear endless screeching from some fat woman jealous of patsy ramsey of all people.

The housekeeper thought it was Patsy.

I’ve always wondered if it was a relative of the housekeeper - son, nephew, cousin, brother, ex, etc.