Reading "Carson the Magnificent"

[quote]With all those women......there must have been serious sizemeat present.

You're confusing women with gay men, dear.

Silly, OP, women do not choose men based on “size meant.” GAY MEN DO.

He’s been forgotten. He was known for non offensive humor and 1970’s softball interviewing. Not a significant person of history

Shaddup, ya cuntbags, or I'll put my lit cigarette out in your eye!

Most of the reader reviews on Amazon for this new bio are pretty dreadful. Shame, as I'd love to read a truly insightful book about Johnny.

He's beloved and a legend, but I'm not sure he was a great guy. I think he was an abuser and a racist, and the feud with Joan was just ridiculous.

The book written by his former attorney Henry Bushkin is pretty good.

It's sort of a weird read because the first part was written by one writer (Bill Zehme) who wrote about him a few times for Esquire, etc. and then he DIED.

And then someone else finished it.

So it's got a "two different books in one" feel to it.

The Late Shift by Bill Carter does a nice job of illustrating how stodgy Johnny's Tonight Show felt in the late '80s and '90s. I can remember the exact line, but someone said "You can practically smell the mold." When Johnny was on, it was old school guests, the usual schtick, and a feeling of invulnerability.

Nasty little white man. Would have been a Trumper.

Nothing dates more than comedy.

What is a terrible title?

Second the recommendation of Henry Bushkin’s book. It’s a firsthand account.

Like most comedians, Carson was a petty, paranoid and miserable person.

Another problem for Johnny was that he only showed up two out of four weeks a month when he wasn’t on lengthy vacations. There were guest hosts all the time. Some were good, even better, but it gave the Tonight Show inconsistency. Then Joan Rivers did all the guest hosting, later Jay Leno was the permanent guest host. It wasn’t Carson’s show anymore.

Bushkin’s book pointed out how fabulous it was to be on Johnny’s good side, but when he fell out of favor, it was hell. Bushkin also mentioned how Johnny cheated constantly, but when one of his wives had a romance with Frank Gifford, all hell and hatred broke loose. He was a difficult man to be around, and died a lonely alcoholic.

R3 not true at all.

Wasn’t he still married when he died?

Same, R5.

When are HBO or Netflix platforming a movie about him?

I’d watch, as would many of us here.

[quote]He’s been forgotten. He was known for non offensive humor and 1970’s softball interviewing. Not a significant person of history

You're wrong about that.

He has an important place in Television history.

Non-offensive humor 1970's softball interviewing? It was an entertainment show. He was not a journalist. He was there to put on a show. On TV that formula began with Steve Allen, Arthur Godfrey, Jack Paar and later Carson, Merv, Mike Douglas. Their humor as not subversive, it was meant to be light, with a party atmosphere.

And no, Carson will not be forgotten as long as YouTube is around.

R17, his much younger trophy wife left him although they never divorced.

[quote]Another problem for Johnny was that he only showed up two out of four weeks a month when he wasn’t on lengthy vacations.

He was a good 20 years into his show before any of that happened.

Interesting reviews

R3 Hardly

I can smell the mold in this thread.

^ The one who stinks is you.

R21, that happened in the 1970s, twelve years into his run. Were you even alive then?

Carson made late night television what it has been for the last fifty years. He might not be "relevant" today, but he changed the face of a medium. The only other talk show host who has come close is Letterman.

But I agree that he started phoning it in by the 80's. Joan Rivers does not get enough credit for keeping the show fresh throughout her tenure as permanent guest host, interviewing hot celebs of the moment like Boy George and Cyndi Lauper. When she left, Arsenio came in with his own show and poached all the younger, fresh talent that Carson's producers rejected.

Another vote for the Bushkin bio. Fascinating, personal and quite dark.

Johnny was a mean introvert from the Midwest and nobody talked about his dick as there was nothing to talk about.

Johnny WAS a dick.

[quote] that happened in the 1970s, twelve years into his run. Were you even alive then?

Dear, as a kid I watched the Jack Paar Show. I've known of Johnny Carson since "Who Do You Trust?" And you?

First of all, all of the talk show hosts utilized guest hosts from time to time. . Carson would in fact often fill in for Paar.

But it was in 1980 that Carson stopped hosting the show 5 days a week. Monday nights were hosted by a guest. And from there he began to reduce his duties even further as the years went on.

r26 You're trying so hard, oddly

Love you, OP!

John Davidson, Rich Little, Bill Cosby, McLean Stevenson etc etc etc. All those annoying guest hosts from the 70s.

For all of his faults, Jay Leno gets at least one point for famously refusing to have guest hosts.

Jay didn't have guest hosts because he was too paranoid and unsure of himself.

Jay was insufferable

During a Larry King interview back in 2007, Wayne Newton talked about how Johnny always made gay jokes about him in his monologue. One day he had enough and confronted Johnny alone in his office and said,

[quote]I don’t know what friend of yours I’ve killed. I don’t know what child of yours I’ve hurt. I don’t know what food I’ve taken out of your mouth. But these jokes about me will stop, and they’ll stop now or I will kick your ass.

Of course Johnny wasn’t afraid of Newton kicking his ass… but he stopped the gay jokes.

“ Brief mention of Arsenio Hall in the book - I don't remember this but apparently Hall's show was for a time the first and only real competition to Carson's and may have contributed to Carson's decision to retire.”

SNL did a skit wherein Carson mimicked Arsenio to catch the hip crowd. Reportedly, Johnny was very unhappy with the skit.

I didn't read CTM but think I remember reading somewhere that the feud between Newton and Carson had to do with competing business ventures in Las Vegas.

Anyway, on another note, like a lot of other parents, my understanding is that Carson was not a good one. Reportedly he was mean and distant to them.

And, maybe the OP can confirm this, but I think one of his sons had a child with a Black woman and Carson would not recognize the child and wouldn't speak to that son.

R39 Not OP, but Christal Love Carson is his mixed-race granddaughter.

Tanena Love Green was Christal’s mother… she died in a house fire in 2021.

R24 I can smell the cocaine

When I watch clips on YouTube, I’m struck by how effortless his hosting and interviewing feels. He could often be funny, and I found him surprisingly sexy.

No one else has matched his success, though I did think in the eighties that Joan Rivers was funnier and more engaging with guests.

He may have been a dick in real life, but behind the desk after the local news, he was a king.

He was a miserable alcoholic with a mean streak a mile wide.

r39, He went to the Bing Crosby School of Parenting.

Didn't we all?

Speaking of Joan, I did NOT know that she was a guest on the very first night of Carson's Tonight Show.

[quote] SNL did a skit wherein Carson mimicked Arsenio to catch the hip crowd.

That is mentioned in the book. Dana Carvey played "Carsenio" and Johnny was furious. He also figured at about that time that if he was being mocked it was maybe time to go.

He beat his wives.

R37, Wayne Newton is a big guy, over six feet. You bet your ass that Carson was afraid that Newton would beat him up.

One reason Carson retired when he did was that he didn't want to turn into Bob Hope. An ancient old man long past relevancy who was still around and embarrassing himself.

Whatever his faults, I loved him and his guests. He let them shine and then add a quip or two. The best is when he’d lose it when someone like Jonathan Winters did said something funny.

The mug on his desk with his face on it was made at the Burbank Mug Shop for his show, and I happened to find one in an antique mall.

I found the excerpt I was looking for:

"The rationale for Fox's assault remained. Carson's show, to many observers both outside and inside NBC, was getting stodgy and out-of-date. Johnny himself still seemed strong, especially in his monologues, which were as sharp and contemporary as anything on television. But the guest list took on a rigid, old show-business cast. Some of Johnny's own staff members wondered why he didn't book new young actors like Kevin Costner.

One headliner comic told his friends: 'When you go on that show, you can smell the polyester.'"

'I blame Brandon a little bit,' one longtime producer of television comedy shows said of the NBC entertainment boss, Brandon Tartikoff. 'He could have provoked Johnny, 'cause I think Carson is a real competitor. Brandon could have said, 'I need you and you're not going anywhere, and spruce up that fucking show. Get back into it.' Instead it was always, 'Whatever you want, whenever you want to leave, let us know.'

The quick demise of Joan Rivers may have renewed the network's confidence that Carson was impregnable. But with the show's drift toward older audiences apparent to everyone in the business, it only encouraged the plotting of new challenges to NBC's late-night fortress."

For what it's worth, here were Johnny's guests roughly 40 years ago. Remember, November is a sweeps month.

Monday, Nov. 19, 1984 -- RERUN

Tuesday, Nov. 20, 1984 -- Robert Blake, Selma Diamond, and Louie Anderson

Wednesday, Nov. 21, 1984 -- Don Rickles, Angie Dickinson, and The Oak Ridge Boys

Thursday, Nov. 22, 1984 -- David Steinberg, Michael Talbott, and Ethel Nixon

Friday, Nov. 23, 1984 -- Harvey Korman, Pamela Stephenson, and The Funny Boys

Kevin Costner apparently made his Tonight Show debut in January 1991, plugging Dances With Wolves. He made one last appearance during the Carson era, on a Jay Leno episode in January 1992 to plug JFK.

Arsenio was bringing out Tom Cruise and Madonna as guests on his show while Johnny was still bringing out Angie Dickinson and Don Rickles.

It's no wonder why Arsenio's show was a huge hit. He had all the young and hip celebrities of that era that people really wanted to see.

R10, no telling where he’d be today politically, but he was known to be a liberal.

To be fair, Madonna's first talk show appearance was on Johnny Carson in 1987. It's one of the (very) rare times when you could tell she was genuinely nervous.

Madonna was on Carson as well, but Arsenio made history when Clinton played saxophone on his show.

"You had a rough time, did you not, with Johnny Carson?"

And your plastic surgeon!

This is who Wayne reminds me of facially in r60’s video clip:

Everyone knows Wayne Newton isn’t gay… he’s a lesbian.

And he is a man with not a tiny cocklet but not a large one for a man so tall.

Johnny tried to out Lily Tomlin on his show in 1973. He asked her if she was married or had children and she shot back with "Well, who has custody of yours?" because she knew [italic]he[/italic] didn't.

His scumbaggery was as large as his late night TV presence. I hope his death hurt a lot.

Massive cock, Major pussyhound, Bush Supporter

(His massive cock is actually that of legend- its true)

Tonight Show w/Johnny Carson: 6,714 episodes, 30 seasons

Arsenio Hall Show: 1,406 episodes, 6 seasons.

And Arsenio's show was gone two years after Johnny left.

What is the evidence that he was a Bush supporter, R65? In his heyday of the ‘60s & ‘70s, he was known to be a liberal in his private life.

Carson had a quick wit. I remember that every year he took time off to attend Wimbledon.

he had a huge audience and a lot of comics got their start appearing on his show. They remained very grateful to him, but he really screwed over Joan Rivers. So I guess his professional generosity had its limits.

R69, that is such bullshit. Rivers screwed herself over, or perhaps more exactly, Edgar did. She knew exactly what she was doing and how it would affect her relationship with Carson. On the Carson PBS documentary, she even admitted she would do things differently. No shit. In the end, it's telling that she got over her husband's suicide much quicker than she got over the Carson snub, which she carried to her grave.

R69, had to add that Freddy DeCordova did a book which outlined all the things Rivers did, like trying to hire away a lot of the Tonight Show staff. He also noted that while her ratings were good, they were never as high as she claimed, but since it was all The Tonight Show, it was good publicity. He personally felt that Rivers was getting too abrasive for the permanent guest host spot, but Carson was behind her all the way. When she went over to Fox, she started publicly saying how wonderful it was having her own show so she could finally do what she wanted. She just kept digging herself deeper in. The saddest thing is that she honestly believed after she got fired from Fox that Carson would have her back on the show.

From what I read, Carson basically said that if someone did Joan's show, they wouldn't be invited to his show. I am not sure how true this is or if it was a real threat, but he went after her big time. He expected loyalty from her but wasn't loyal to her. Joan knew she wasn't on the shortlist to replace Johnny when he retired and acted accordingly.

Carson had nothing to do with that shortlist and in retrospect, NBC was 100% correct in not having her on a list as permanent host of the Tonight Show. He didn't have to go after Rivers because her show was DOA and the longer the show went, the more of a joke she became.

Did Joan Rivers owe R70 & R73 money or something?

Jay Leno carried on the Joan Rivers snub after her death Melissa, Joan’s daughter said she was at some banquet or something , shortly after Joan died . Melissa saw Jay and nodded her head at him, as if to say hello.

The Bastard. Jay completely snubbed her. It was very hurtful obviously

And it's not like Jay was gonna get a gold star from Johnny or anything.

Stodgy for sure R48

Freddy De Cordova’s frail widow was taken to live with her long-time housekeeper in Mexico. It was a sweet story in VF I think. I think he had money problems. Seems like a lot of people associated with Carson didn’t end well. I read the Bushkin book. He was a terrible alcoholic and his best part was on the show and nowhere else. Like a lot of show biz.

"Part of Television History" means nothing.

About 8 people under the age of 40 of much concept of who Johnny Carson was....or, really, any media person unless it's someone who starred on an iconic show that is still beloved.

People born after 1980 tend to not recognize anything that happened before they started experiencing media. You reference anything prior to their birth and they look at you blankly and say the same thing: "That was before I was born..."

They're insufferable.

Didn't he get sober at some point? Only to br a dry drunk...

I didn't care for Carson. But here's an idea about the dick's dick.

[quote] People born after 1980 tend to not recognize anything that happened before they started experiencing media. You reference anything prior to their birth and they look at you blankly and say the same thing: "That was before I was born..."

Is that really so different from prior generations dating back to at least the Boomers?

[quote]R10 Nasty little white man. Would have been a Trumper.

[quote]R65 Massive cock, Major pussyhound, Bush Supporter

David Letterman said that Johnny would sometimes send him jokes about Bush for his monologue and after Dave told the joke he would imitate a golf swing. Neither of them liked Bush as president. Doubtful he would have supported Trump.

He already was, R51.

Liberal? Where did you get that, R57?

[quote]People born after 1980 tend to not recognize anything that happened before they started experiencing media. You reference anything prior to their birth and they look at you blankly and say the same thing: "That was before I was born..."

That difference may be that many of us GenXers were raised by TV—syndicated reruns of old TV shows in the mornings before school and in the afternoons after school, reruns and old movies on weekend TV. And once we got wired for cable, there were a million other channels and MTV. GenXers watched a lot of TV. The generations after us went to their computers and video games for entertainment. That's why many of us know so much about stars and certain pop cultural touchstones that were before our time.

[quote] Liberal? Where did you get that, [R57]?

That was contemporaneously written about during his career. Where is the idea that he wasn't coming from?

Wow, R54. That list says a lot.

I think he did have *some* younger or more contemporary figures on (as someone mentioned, Madonna was one) but the book goes into detail about how Carson was the "You've made it!" figure for a lot of comedians - e.g. once you were on Carson, especially if he invited you over to chat, you had it made.

I think he or his bookers saw Johnny as that figure for musicians, movie stars, etc. and really had their head in the old, stale clouds otherwise.

(And Joan always seemed to book younger acts when she was the substitute host.)

Who cares about Jay Leno? He premature ejaculated inside Sharon Osbourne *shudder*

He never fucked me!

[quote]Johnny tried to out Lily Tomlin on his show in 1973. He asked her if she was married or had children and she shot back with "Well, who has custody of yours?" because she knew he didn't.

Love that Lily!

[quote]His massive cock is actually that of legend- its true

Have a link outside of Datalounge for that?

My grandparent's Manhattan penthouse shared a floor with Johnny's back in the day. They would frequently hear him beating his first wife.

I haven't and won't read this biography of Carson, mainly because I read Henry Bushkin's (Carson's long time lawyer) book entitled 'Johnny Carson'. Carson was a very weird man. He could be quite kind to some, but more often he was quite evil to others, especially those he worked with the decades. He was also a womanizing piece of shit.

He was “a womanizing piece of shit” when that was almost the norm for successful men of his generation.

I believe Joan implied that Johnny and her had an affair at one point.

Johnny went out with Dyan Cannon and Sally Field as well. Here he's with Angie Dickinson.

All of his wives had the Joan name in various forms. Bette Midler once joked that he must have a sled named Joan growing up.

Joan Rivers discusses being snubbed from the last few weeks of Johnny's departure.

Did Johnny date Dyan Cannon?

A lot of Johnny's crushes turned out to be lesbians, like Judy Carne, Lana Cantrell, Lena Horne...

[quote]All of his wives had the Joan name in various forms.

No, dear.

"He was “a womanizing piece of shit” when that was almost the norm for successful men of his generation."

Who says it's any different now?

In terms of politics, FEC records show that Johnny Carson (Comedian-NBC-California) did donate to Reagan very early when his campaign first started in 1979, but he then switched and donated to both Jerry Brown and Ted Kennedy's campaigns. He eventually gave money to Carter-Mondale for re-election.

I don't get some of you. All of these disturbing flaws about Johnny - isn't that what you'd want to read about in a biography??

R96 “It never happened,” said Dorothy Melvin, Rivers’ longtime manager. “Joan would seize any chance, especially in her later years, to get publicity. Johnny was dead, and nobody would refute it. Joan wanted to be talked about, so she said outrageous things.”

Those who knew both parties were equally incredulous. “Never happened,” Shelly Schultz said firmly. “The very idea that she said that—it’s all about self-aggrandizement. And to discredit him, maybe. Johnny could have any guest he wanted. If you saw Joan Rivers back then and you were Johnny Carson, she wasn’t even on page 12. She was a cute, scrawny little Jewish girl from Brooklyn. There was not anybody that I know of who wanted to jump her bones.”

Henry Bushkin agreed with that assessment. “I thought it was just pure Joan. It was all bullshit, but it was theatrical. It gave her something else to talk about,” he said.

Rivers’ friends were equally dubious. “I know she didn’t. It just wasn’t in the equation,” said Robert Higdon, a longtime confidant. “She’s a comedian.

R86 Exactly! Boomers and early Gen X grew up without cable TV and in a world where entertainment from the past was a big part of our present. TV channels showed old black and white movies and reruns were religiously watched. Rock and roll was new and pop standards were still around. Broadway music was important! There were talk shows that had writers and artists and arts people on and they discussed topics of the day. People read magazines and newspapers and books. Schools still taught history. If you wanted arts and entertainment, you had no option but to be aware of a variety of different things from different eras. It was part of our culture.

Once cable TV started circa 1980 and video games, it all started to drastically change. And, it was the Reagan Era so that was the start of corporate mergers so as arts and media companies started getting bought up and merged under one corporate umbrella, things just started getting dumber and duller.

And, of course parenting changed drastically. As the Boomers started really having their kids in the 70s, a new style of parenting evolved...less discipline and more letting kids do what they want. The "everyone is a winner" bullshit evolved and helicopter parenting took off. 80s and 90s paranoia about satanists and pedos on every corner made parents quite happy to have their rugrats just sit in the family room, their eyes either glued to the 188 cable channels, or playing video games 10 hours a day.

After Reagan gutted media regulations, shit like Fox News took over...then the Internet and cell phones all added to the bonfire of "let's create a corporate Fascist state full of idiots" that we have today!

Schools don’t teach history anymore?

R97, I miss Joan so much.

Joan was 100% real and always carried herself with dignity and class. And she raised a well-adjusted, talented daughter in her own right.

Joan was also a HUGE ally to the gay community. Going back to the mid 80s. She was very liberal for her time.

Johnny also knew a little bit of Joan went a long way. She could guest host the tonight show and get tons of publicity for her books, tv shows and concert dates.

Doc Severinsen is still alive.

Was kind of hot back in the day.

Had been with The Tonight Show since its beginnings in the 1950s with Steve Allen as host.

He's 97 years old.

^ HOT? Lordy.

SEXY!

What was with all the homophobic jokes implying Doc was gay?

Doc was a flamboyant dresser.

Doc gave off a kind of pansexual vibe. Ready for anything. I get it.

Apparently, Carson didn't cut out his surviving sons from inheriting some of his money and his estranged widow, Alex Maas, readily distributed to them what Carson designated for them in his financial beneficiary statements.

Given his enormous wealth at the time of his death, while they may not be multi-millionaires, I would imagine to this day, both his sons live comfortable financial lives based upon what Carson left them.

Maas sold Carson's Malibu property and pocketed an enormous chunk of dough form that, plus whatever cash he left her, too.

All 3 were left in pretty good shape by Carson.

I was never a big fan as there was a smugness about him that rubbed me the wrong way. I also noticed during the few times that I actually watched his show that he was the type of comedian who just piggybacked off of others who were sitting in the chair next to him. Someone would say something funny and Carson would skip a beat and then come back with a "topper." He would add something to what was said and effectively steal the laughter from his guest. Nine times out of ten it wasn't very original either.

Don't get me started on Ed "braying jackass" McMahon.

I grew tired of Johnny Carson very quickly in the 1970s, but I’ve been watching some of the reruns on Antenna TV. Compared to the fools now on late night - Jimmy Fallon and Colbert specifically - Carson ain’t bad at all.

Carson was bland, seemingly affable, and occasionally made you laugh. Sometimes a genuinely witty guest like Dick Cavett or Charles Grodin would raise everyone's game. It was pretty perfect for bedtime viewing that would send you smoothly off to Dreamland, but yeah, I can see people who weren't around at the time being puzzled today by his popularity and longevity. I can only repeat what others have said: we had three channels.

Yes, three channels and there was no internet. Look at some of the SHIT tv that was popular back then, that wouldn't have a chance of being a hit today. The lack of options and nothing else to watch.

And yet a lot of that shit is still getting rerun on TV fifty years later.

People from that time are still watching it. God, just look at our eldergays. They have encyclopedic memories of every single episode of every single tv series and every single tv movie from the 70s and 80s. I can't even fucking remember what happened on SVU a month ago.

[quote] I also noticed during the few times that I actually watched his show that he was the type of comedian who just piggybacked off of others who were sitting in the chair next to him. Someone would say something funny and Carson would skip a beat and then come back with a "topper

You’re kind of a moron.

Shelley Winters was one of his best guests.

Boring self-important Dick Cavett at R119.

By the 1970s America was perfectly happy with an affable host who would gently put you to sleep in under 90 minutes. Late night invigorating mindful conversation was long dead.

Tom Snyder did some good full-hour interviews on "Tomorrow," if you could stay awake that late....

Tom Snyder, at least in his younger years, was such a fucking sexy daddy. Great to watch in bed with the lights out....

I watch Carson and Snyder on YouTube to see guest interviews. It can be really interesting.