"Who Killed Jon-Benet Ramsey?"

Did DL's very own Mrs Patrick Ramsey collaborate on the production??

Did the FBI ever zero in on that small foreign faction?

Why hasn't Parker Brothers ever come out with a Jon-Benet edition of Clue? This would be the perfect setup for that game

It was Burke, in the Kitchen, with a Flashlight

You're sick, r3! Marry me!

It was either John or Patsy and one helped the other cover it up.

I’ve said this before on here. I read an incredible thread on Reddit which spelled out point by point why it had to be the dad.

After 30 years I couldn’t give a shit if I tried

Well, it was me…. In the court of public opinion. I love my daughter, truly. She was my everything. She could be anything I wanted her to be.

It's a macabre national obsession. Dead child pageant champion. Fatty stage mom. Secret psycho dad. And mysteriously protected jealous odd brother. Plus who eats pineapple in bed. Gross.

The Ramseys were filthy pigs. Their house was nasty and they had disguting personal habits. The housekeepers and people who knew them talked about it in several interviews.

This is not a “quest for justice.” How pathetic.

For the longest time, I thought Burke did it.

But then, it may have been here at the good old DL, I read that someone said an investigator who was in a very close position to all of the evidence, or, lack, thereof, said that Burke could not have caused her death.

All I know is one of those three, John, Patsey or Burke caused her death.

I don't believe in an after-life but on the very, very off-chance that there is one, before I permanently leave to explore other galaxies and time, I'm tracking Patsey down to ask her. I'll leave Jon Benet alone.

Mrs. Patsy Ramsey, formerly of Boulder, CO, knew well the benefits of appropriate application of discipline to defiant little slatterns.

John has the psycho demeanor of a killer. Patsy was just a garden variety nut bag. But John is very sinister.

Sometimes little pint-sized harlots get what's coming to them.

r6 Do you have a link to that thread? Sounds interesting

How can anyone kill a child? I don't have any but that is beyond the pale.

Maybe after John dies (he's in his eighties now) Burke will finally tell all.

It is a clear case of suicide. End of story.

[quote] Plus who eats pineapple in bed.

You are banished from DL. Begone now.

R6. You can read?

R16 I can’t find it. That’s the thing. At the time of me reading it, spring of 2022 it was just saved in my history. But I never bookmarked it. I came across it on this site in some thread about the case.

Was it DL that coined the phrase “pint-sized harlot”?

What's important is not, who killed whom?, but rather, what lessons were learned?

I'm sure many children learned from all this that you can't raid the refrigerator, not even on Christmas Eve, without Santa watching you. He always knows who's naughty and who's nice.

I don't know, but I do think it's possible that she was killed by someone outside of the family.

What do you mean? Their house was dirty? Can you please explain?

It was a small foreign faction.

R25 thinks OJ could have been innocent too.

I read that same Reddit thread I think there was a link to it here a couple years back but yes. It made an exhausting case for the dad.

I can’t remember though was he diddling her? Can’t remember why they said he did it.

I will always believe the brother killed her and the parents covered it up.

Patsy wrote that idiotic note. It was the note that convinced me.

It was the same kind of knowing I had when the good old National Enquirer found a picture of OJ wearing the shoes.

There was nobody else in that house.

The basement window had been broken from the inside, not the outside. If you've ever watched Forensic Files, you would know that that's when the cops drag the homeowner by the collar down to the precinct for an interrogation because of how obvious it is that the crime scene has been set up. Of course the cops didn't do that with the Ramseys. The whole investigation was fucked up from the beginning.

I see a climax similar to the revelation in "Murder on the Orient Express."

A long line of family members, neighbors, militant faction members, Santa Clauses and crazy vagrants.

It was an accident - I'm sorry

(Burke Ramsey)

It was an accident - I'm sorry.

(Burke Ramsey)

It was an accident - I'm sorry.

(Burke Ramsey)

It was an accident - Sorry!

cccccccč2ćmmß

Either the dad was diddling her or the brother.

Or both.

If life were like an 80s soap opera, Jon-Benet would return with a shocking twist. Mispronounced dead after the incident, she escaped the hospital crematorium, hopped a freighter for Hawaii and grew up laboring alongside her adoptive family on a pineapple plantation. But now she's back and she's all grown up with one goal in life - revenge.

We heard it may have been a pageant rival. Little Miss Texas, Little Miss New Jersey and Little Miss Florida are the prime suspects though from what we understand she wasn’t exactly Miss Congeniality so it could’ve been any of the Little Miss America contestants.

[quote] Was it DL that coined the phrase “pint-sized harlot”?

Yes.

DL was also where we workshopped, planned and wrote the Mrs. Patsy Ramsey musical.

Remember Nancy Grace? I remember watching her show and she talked about this case.

Did they ever release her autopsy results? Did mention sexual assault? Her hymen still intact?

I remember someone said it was a sexless marriage coz I think the mother was having some female parts issues

Yeah, that ransom note was a dead giveaway. The amount they wanted was the dad's bonus amount from his job. Who the fuck would know this info?

The ransom note was written on a pad of paper that was on the counter in the Ramsey's kitchen. 1) who writes a fucking ransom note outside of movies set in the 1930s? and 2) wouldn't a ransom not be pre-written?

The pen used to write the ransom note came from one of the kitchen drawers. After the note was written, the cap was put back on the pen and the pen was put back in the drawer.

This alone should've raised alarm bells with the cops. It is just unbelievable how incompetent they all were.

r30, this is r12.

I go back and forth on Burke Did It.

John and Patsy Ramsey stuck together like glue throughout the entire investigation and until Patsy died.

If either one of them caused her death I think the chances are, by now, and even then, more info would have come forward to support that one of them caused her death and one spouse would've cracked under the pressure.

So that leaves protecting Burke as the reason their bond was unbreakable.

But, otoh, I saw a few minutes of Burke's interview after he became an adult. Was it on 20/20? Anyway, to my unpracticed eyes and ears, he seemed credible and also thought if he caused Jon Benet's death, would he have agreed to this interview?

So, I'm a Yo-Yo when it comes to "Did Burke Do It?"

[quote] The pen used to write the ransom note came from one of the kitchen drawers. After the note was written, the cap was put back on the pen and the pen was put back in the drawer.

I didn't know that until I read your post, r45.

There was also a practice note wadded up in the trash.

[quote] There was also a practice note wadded up in the trash.

(Eyes Wide as Saucers) Holy Shit!

You better stop accusing me or I'll smear my feces all over DL! You've been warned bitches!

[quote]Did DL's very own Mrs [italic]Patrick[/italic]Ramsey collaborate on the production??

Fuck this "Oh, dear" nonsense.

Basement.

NOW.

The dad was fucking the daughter

One of the most bizarre things found in the home was a soiled pair of Burke's pajama bottoms in Jonbenet's room. There were feces smeared throughout the room including on a box of chocolates.

John wrote the note. Patsy was the sole intended audience for the note. It was all to buy time to get the body out of the house, but Patsy fucked up by calling the cops.

R54 I thought the handwriting analysis showed that it was Patsy who wrote the note.

The note was obviously written by a woman.

I remember an interview with one of the Boulder cops who was at the house after Jon-Benet was reported missing and who interviewed the family.

She said from the start, she had a bad feeling about the father, and when she interviewed him, she said she looked in his eyes and got a chill down her spine. She always felt he was the one killed Jon-Benet.

R54, there's an enormous amount of confusion over the evidence in this case. No handwriting analysis proved that Patsy wrote the note; in fact, one of the courts that examined the case concluded that she hadn't.

The ransom note is incredibly long and uses a lot of phony tough-guy language and sarcasm. It was obviously written by someone who thought they had plenty of time.

Patsy wrote the note with her opposite hand.

R58 But wasn't there something about how the "a"s in the letter were a virtual match with the way Patsy wrote her "a"s ?

R40 You know those three little terrors went on to a life a crime. Last we heard the troubled trio was getting jacked up on Go Go Juice and holding up Tanning Salons while wearing Jon-Benet masks. Diabolical.

r53, was there any testing of the feces to see if it belonged to Jon Benet? Burke? Patsy or John?

Iirc, I don't think the Ramseys ever submitted to providing any bodily specimen samples so that's probably a moot question.

Because the soiled pajamas were Burke's it was logical to conclude the feces were his. Burke had a history of soiling himself and according to the housekeeper would smear it in the bathroom.

If I remember correctly, R54, the i's were dotted with hearts. Only a woman or a very fem DLer would do this.

R60, the real problem is that you can't make absolute conclusions based on handwriting analysis. What's strange is that the killer knew JonBenet was dead and in the house and apparently wanted to buy time by warning the family not to call the police. He/she took about three pages to do that. Yet the first thing Patsy did was call the police.

The Ramseys had a flight to Michigan early that morning where they were meeting John's daughter Melinda and her fiance. They had quickly come up with a reason Jonbenet was missing.

Who....

or what.

It's pretty clear it was one of the parents. The Ransom note points to that and more importantly the couple couldn't find a lawyer who would represent both of them. A couple lawyers refused to represent them as a couple signing conflict of interest which means one of them did it

It was the father!!!

Remember there was a rope with knots? Kid would not know how to tie that

[quote]If life were like an 80s soap opera, Jon-Benet would return with a shocking twist. Mispronounced dead after the incident, she escaped the hospital crematorium, hopped a freighter for Hawaii and grew up laboring alongside her adoptive family on a pineapple plantation. But now she's back and she's all grown up with one goal in life - revenge.

"Incidentally — which one of you bitches is my MURDERER?"

The Ramseys seemed to think the younger son did it, and were covering up when he got up. There was a moment when Patsy was on the phone in the kitchen that morning (I think with cops) and he asked what was happening and she told him to shut up. The body was stashed for later "discovery," Patsy wrote the insane note,

I really don't think "Don't Try To Grow A Brain" John or Patsy did it, but they were guilty of a lot of crimes with their stunt. She WAS a show-woman, remember, and a hot mess. The injuries easy to see as kids' stuff, especially appearing as having included some evidence of longer-term issues before the night of the fatality.

Of course the best/worst ending would be that there WAS an intruder who killed her, and the Ramseys jumped to the wrong conclusion. Not likely, even with the dibs and dabs of DNA. For all anyone knew the whole neighborhood was fingering up the little dolly.

But only one person killed her.

The injuries weren't "kids stuff". Her skull was nearly split in two by a heavy downward blow. This indicates someone much taller and stronger than Jonbenet.

Patsy was up late packing for their trip. Maybe Jonbenet got out of bed and Patsy took her downstairs for a snack. Then Jonbenet let slip that she and Daddy played a secret game at night. Patsy was enraged and struck Jonbenet with the MagLite. It was later found on the kitchen counter, it had been wiped clean including the batteries. It's not uncommon for a mother to blame their child for being abused and take it out on them.

[quote] Remember there was a rope with knots? Kid would not know how to tie that

Honey, the theory is the parents staged it to make it look like an intruder did it to save their son. They would be the ones who put together the knot. No one is going to say that 10 year old Burke tied his sister up after murdering her and hid the body.

JonBenet was no abused. The only thing she had was slight irritation from bubble bath. She wasn’t diddled. It had been noted prior. The kid was knocked on the head, which is why they think it was Burke with a golf club and the reason the parents would make up the entire thing to save the other child. Burke does scream psychopath in interviews.

There were tears and bleeding in her vagina.

Statistically, the killer would be the adult male in the house. I think Patsy covered up for John.

R73, that’s one of the most telling things, at least to me. Patsy was being treated for cancer; Burke was nine years old. It’s very unlikely that either could have broken JonBenet’s skull with a single blow.

[quote] There were tears and bleeding in her vagina.

Not from sexual assault. This has been covered a million times.

Her dad had been raping her for a long time and killed her so she wouldn’t blab.

It wasn't like trying to bust through concrete, it was a crack in a little girls skull.

Burke was a nine year old hopped up on Xmas candy, past his bedtime and was then a quick out of control rage incident after his little sister was messing with him. He didn't know his own strength or how to hold back. There's been no evidence that Burke was able to control his emotions.

That little freak shit in a box of chocolates.

Case closed.

r75 "like an intruder did it to save their son"

Why would an intruder do it to save their son?

[quote]Burke was a nine year old hopped up on Xmas candy

A Christmas tweaker.

The thing that sold me on Patsy writing the random note, even though forensic experts said her handwriting didn’t match, was the misuse of the word hence. On some show about this case it was pointed out that in the ransom note it says “And hence” which is redundant. Apparently in a family newsletter to friends Patsy wrote “And hence” there as well.

Hardly enough to hang a case on, but it stood out to me.

It's not difficult to disguise your handwriting if you use your non-dominant hand.

[quote]That little freak shit in a box of chocolates.

So I guess Forrest Gump's mama was right.

I've read a lot about this case and the ransom note. IMO, that was Patsy's handwriting. The note was compared to some of her writing samples and it did look the same, IMO. If it wasn't her handwriting, then it was John, forging her handwriting.

[quote]Remember Nancy Grace? I remember watching her show and she talked about this case.

[quote]Did they ever release her autopsy results? Did mention sexual assault? Her hymen still intact?

Nancy Grace is finally dead? Praise the lord! Who cares if her hymen is still intact?

This kind of prurient speculation is so tiresome.

John was known to say “and hence” as well. It wouldn’t be unusual for a married couple to use similar words (especially if one was trying to frame the other)

ENOUGH about this little harlot, for the love of God!

Where is she buried? Next to her mother?

R89, she's an is not a was on Wikipedia and a no show on Find A Grave, so, um....

The dad killed her and wrote the ransom note in Pat’s style of writing. He was stalling but Patsey freaked and called the cops.

Ugh.

[quote] Her dad had been raping her for a long time and killed her so she wouldn’t blab.

Nope.

R93, Her mother was buried next to her in Georgia. And can we at least get her name right? It's JonBenét, no hyphen, no space. JonBenét.

R88. I miss John Bennet!

R98 Sassy talk back is what got that little cunt killed.

I have been saying for years, after reading everything I could find and watching all the TV analyses, that her little brother killed her by accident. Her parents covered it up immediately. Instantly. They wanted to protect him.

John was diddling JonBenet, Patsy walked in on them, and in a fit of rage threw something at John but it missed and killed JonBenet instead. They both covered it up because both of them were going to go to prison if they didn't.

Yawn

R101, many people believe that. I don't. Burke was a child, he was never going to go to prison. And if Burke had hit her accidentally, why would they have assumed that she was dead? Why not a call a doctor first? In fact, JonBenet was killed by a combination of the head blow and the garroting. The garroting seemed to have been designed to finish her off -- or implicate Patsy, since some of her art supplies were used.

Author Stephen Singular (RIP) will be in this documentary. He wrote interesting books about this case and the OJ Simpson case.

Jon Benet had a history of UTI's and bed wetting. Both are signs of sexual abuse. Wouldn't JB have said something if Burke was abusing her? I think it was the father, all day long.

Isn't there a new investigator in Boulder and DNA testing? John's first son said he was only on Twitter until that was done and hasn't tweeted in a few years since he said it was in the works.

Did they all (Patsy, Burke, John) get or pass polygraphs? I'm relatively ignorant as to what happened aside what's been mentioned here.

Netflix is nothing but junk anymore. It’s no better than what comes free with Samsung.

R108, John and Patsy refused to take polygraphs administered by law enforcement. They took two sets of polygraphs conducted by people they themselves hired. The first set was deemed “inconclusive.” The second set, though, was announced as a triumph that completely vindicated them.

The head blow would have killed her anyway, the garrote was just icing on the cake.

The garrote was a prop in a staged murder.

R104 That's the part that's always puzzled me. If it was an accident, why didn't John or Patsy call 911? Even if JonBenet was already dead when they found her, I think most parents' immediate response would be to call for help.

It never made sense to me that if her death had been some kind of accident that a whole fake kidnapping scheme would've been concocted.

A nine-year-old can wield a flashlight with enough physical strength to cause fatal or injurious blunt force to another child's skull.

Whether that same nine-year can form the intent to cause the injury or death of another by means of wielding that flashlight or other object is another question.

While surprisingly rare, children have perpetrated homicide, intentional or accidental.

I use "surprisingly" because when I think how I fought and played with my siblings and friends as a child, I'm surprised fatalities were as low as they were.

Nowadays we've given kids the means to commit injury to their own brains by anesthetizing them with screens.

I was attacked by my sibling when I was 9. my sibling was 11. She chased me around the house with a huge knife. I ran and hid under my blanket and she chopped down on me anyways...I was injured and had to go to the hospital.

Patsy and John weren't rational people. In their panic, they worried that they'd lose their other child to prison and instead of doing the sensible thing of calling 911, they thought they were smarter than everyone else and could stage a coverup to prevent Burke from taking any blame.

Like most things in their life, it grew out of their hands

If they both were in on it and had landed on the kidnapping story as a cover-up, why move their daughter’s body to the basement? They had time. The note told them not to contact the authorities, so they could justify a delay. Why not take the body out of the house and leave it somewhere to be discovered later? In the meantime they could both carry on being distraught victims.

Of course, if only one of them was involved things would be different. It would be risky to stuff a child’s corpse into a suitcase and disappear for a few hours. The killer might have hidden the body in the basement thinking that they could get rid of it later (or be out of state when it was discovered). But Patsy screwed that up by freaking out and calling the cops.

R117 I'm sure they didn't want to risk being seen outside by nosey neighbors, so they just move the body to the basement.

Wasn't it Christmas Eve? They all went to a party or something, at the neighbors? OR am I getting mixed up.

R119, JonBenet died on December 25, or maybe an hour two into December 26. The Ramseys had been to a party early that evening.

I did.

No me.

She was right up my alley.

I endorse the above confessions.

R113, dear, death is the opposite of an emergency. What was the rush to call the police?

- Patsy

They should chance the name to trashflix.

As time goes on, I really don't think it was Burke. It was John Ramsey, IMO.

As much as we joke around about Mrs. Patsy Ramsey, I don't think it was her.

R125, clever.

[quote] It never made sense to me that if her death had been some kind of accident that a whole fake kidnapping scheme would've been concocted.

Perhaps to save face. A kidnapping is much more dramatic and sympathy evoking than your son clubbing his sister.

Sometimes I think Burke did it because Patsy and John didn’t seem nervous or act guilty when interviewed on TV, because they know they didn’t do it and their son did. But then, when Patsy is on the phone you can hear Burke ask what’s going on and he sounded genuinely curious. So, I don’t know. It was definitely staged that I’m positive of.

[quote] But then, when Patsy is on the phone you can hear Burke ask what’s going on and he sounded genuinely curious.

Yup. Burke is not the killer.

John didn't seem nervous because he was a very wealthy man and used to getting his own way on everything. Patsy looked doped up on Xanax.

I never followed this case too much because I found it upsetting. I really wonder who did it though.

R68, a grand jury had brought up indictments against both parents, IIRC.

The D.A. refused to press charges.

What about Santa?

? Another go at this? I think I'll wait for the musical.

Sabrina Carpenter in the role of JonBenet.

Kristen Chenowith as Nancy Grace.

Timoteee as Burke

Ask yourself why John was married to a woman so “beneath him,” image-wise.

No woman on his level would have him.

That should tell you a whole lot.

I don’t think this way— maybe you don’t think this way— but you can bet John Ramsey thinks this way.

He is defective in the same way Burke is defective. Patsy was a dumb hillbilly and I can hardly believe someone like John would deign to be seen with her.

Sick fucking shit.

Child predators figured out a long time ago they need the frumpy wife (if religious, all the better) to give them cover.

John is probably a child predator.

R138 “You…. Take… That…. Back…”

Patsy was not just Miss West Virginia. She was The Miss West Virginia. When John married her she was a trophy wife.

Exactly. She was a pageant winner and a trophy wife. Guys from that era were looking for trophies, not Patsy Ramsey, MD.

John and Patsy in the early days.

Jesus Christ. Patsy was NEVER a trophy wife.

Do any of you bitches have eyes?

Patsy’s biggest asset was her dumbass, West Virginia, “gee, what’s a child predator?” stupidity.

To John Ramsey, she was a trophy.

Look at Phil Hartman's wife.

Straight guys are looking for this type of "beauty."

JonBenet Ramsey died for all of our sins and YOURS TOO!!!

Patsy was always odd-looking, even when young. She had that inbred look.

Always thought John did it. Just my gut. Burke was a messed-up kid but as pointed out above, he seemed confused about what was going on in the immediate aftermath. Not guilty-seeming at all.

She looks a little like Mia Goth.

John Ramsey is a conventionally handsome guy.

He is wealthy.

He doesn’t need to go slumming for girls in the hollers of West Virginia.

There’s something very wrong with him.

He actually met Patsy in Atlanta. He was her boss IIRC.

John was divorced and on the prowl when Miss West Virginia let him peek down her cleavage. Pasty scored a rich husband which was a dream come true for her battle-axe mother Nedra.

Well, Nedra can rest easy knowing her girl scored a wealthy child predator.

Who cares if Nefra had to sacrifice her own granddaughter?

Congrats, hillbilly Nedra!

Nedra was no hillbilly. She called Boulder a cow town and thought the Ramsey's should be somewhere more cosmopolitan.

"As long as John Ramsey makes money we're going to spend it!"

I still think it was an outside job. Someone who knew the Ramseys, worked for them at some point. May have overheard things that factored into the note. Remember Elizabeth Smart? Random handyman psycho abducted her. Weird shit does happen.

Then he sat down with the Ramsay’s notepad and wrote, crossed out and then rewrote, the fucking War and Peace of ransom letters.

R156 Don't get me started on *that* bitch's bullshit kidnapping story.

All this John Ramsey-did-it stuff (which I'm on board with, but I'm on board with any of the 3 present as causing JonBenet's death) makes me curious about his relationships with his older adult children from his first marriage.

He had 3. A daughter was killed in a car accident when she was in her early 20s. I think her sibling survivors are a son and another daughter.

Doesn't research suggest that child sexual abusers/pedophiles/ephebophiles have those inclinations from early in their life?

For the purpose of this discussion, I'm arbitrarily defining "early" as from, say, puberty, because I can't think of any other starting point right now.

But anyway, if John Ramsey was a child abuser and he perpetrated any abuse to his older children, there is only one person, at most two, who would know that, unless one of their therapists, if any, has knowledge, too - his adult children from his first marriage.

If John Ramsey didn't abuse his older children, but he did abuse JonBenet, it just strikes me as unusual that he would suddenly develop a criminal predilection to sexually abuse, then cause the death, of one of his children.

And yes, I anticipate the responses that Patsy sexualized JonBenet to explain John Ramsey's possible abuse, but that wouldn't hold water with me. A person, especially a parent who lacks the abuser predilection, wouldn't have urges to abuse their child no matter what.

Just another question to the mountain of answers we'll never have....

R159, it's not even clear that JonBenet was sexually abused. The UTIs and bedwetting are serious red flags, but there is another possible explanation for them. JonBenet was past the age when she should have been able to use the toilet by herself, but apparently she couldn't; she was always calling for someone to come and help her. Both Burke and JonBenet had serious toileting issues (it's one of the few ways a hyper-controlled child can act out), although Burke's seems to have gotten better after JonBenet became the prime object of Patsy's obsessive interest.

So I don't think it's necessary to see John as a pedophile to believe that he was guilty. I think that he killed JonBenet because he wanted to destroy Patsy. She'd betrayed him. First she stopped thinking that he was the center of the universe when she become fixated on JonBenet and then she had the unmitigated gall to develop cancer. She'd made everything about herself. That was wrong.

The housekeeper said there was no affection in that household between Jon and Patsy or towards the kids. Their marriage was like a business, Patsy's job was to support John and keep the kids out of his hair.

What I found strange is that there's no mention of relationships Patsy had before she met John. No old boyfriends or former lovers ever came forward to spill the dirt on Miss Patsy Ramsey.

^Mrs. Patsy Ramsey

"Jonbenet was a little bit molested."

I know a family in which the parents were seemingly the nicest, kindest, most loving, and hard-working people.

Their three kids are all fairly successful. But they are all batshit crazy. They all seem to function ok at work (but who knows) but are wildly dysfunctional in relationships and everyday behavior. No boundaries at all. .

I’ve often wondered what their childhood was like.

It definitely makes me aware we have no idea what goes on in families.

Where are all these Nedra quotes from? Did she write a tell all?

The quote about Jonbenet being a little bit molested was in Nedra's police statement. Other quotes came from people who were friends or worked for the Ramseys. John let Patsy's family run one of his offices for while but they didn't do anything but gossip and spend John's money. A co-worker recalled them discussing the size of Burke's penis.

Why does no one talk about the BPD notes, found on Wikipedia I believe, that showed Burke was having sex with a 12/13 year old neighbor girl? Is it to protect the girl? It shows Burke was sexually active at 9 years old.

I had such a crush on Burke as a child. He's 2 years older than me. He was quite good looking on the Dr. Phil special, but he seemed so intensely damaged.

R167 How big could a 9 year old's penis be?

Burke would have been a toddler at the time.

r171 9 yrs old is one old toddler!

[quote]She had that inbred look.

Well, she WAS from West Virginia, so .... redundant.

[quote] Why does no one talk about the BPD notes

Bipolar disorder?

Borderline personality disorder?

R174 I thought the same, but Boulder Police Dept. makes the most logical sense (not to say they've been read by the Police as I question their literacy then, and today).

Anyone who believes that a 12-13 year old girl would be sexually interested in any 9 year old boy has never met a 12-13 year old girl

After all that you had to leave the period off?

Oh, dear.

I never even got to HAVE a period.

I think the brother theory is just people trying to find something unique out of what is extremely likely just a run of the mill horrific child abuse case by the parents.

John found the body, the ransom note listed John’s exact bonus amount, her skull was smashed by someone with considerable strength, she was sexually abused, someone gave her a bowl of pineapple which was her favorite snack, Patsy testifies that she woke up with John already in the shower, etc.

It was 100% the dad and the mom helped cover it up. If it was the brother, why were they so blasé about him after the murder? They let him talk to the police, they let him go stay at their friends house, etc. wouldn’t they be worried he would say something?

Elijah Wood as Burke.

R176 It was in the BPD notes. That girl’s parents paid to not have that come out. It literally said Burke (maybe she was 11) had penetrative vaginal sex with her multiple times. Someone can find it.

Is there a definitive book on this case? There have been so many books and I've never read any of them, but I'm wondering if any DLers could recommend the best one.

R176. Wait, what? Burke was 3 yrs older than JonBenet. She died at 6 yrs old, he was 9. Or did you mean someone else?

[quote]How big could a 9 year old's penis be?

Why is everybody looking at me?

It comes out a week from today. Nov. 25.

[quote] Anyone who believes that a 12-13 year old girl would be sexually interested in any 9 year old boy has never met a 12-13 year old girl

Speak for yourself.

Burke had a big 9 year old penis? WTF am I reading?

It's Dad.

No, Burke was 2-3 when this conversation took place. Nedra, Patsy, and others who worked in the Atlanta office were sitting around discussing the size of baby Burke's penis. The co-worker who overheard this thought it was inappropriate and disturbing in hindsight.

Didn't they have a creepy neighbor who was also a friend who had access to their house almost at will?

If the Ramseys had a neighbor with regular access to their house, they would have pointed at him to the cops in the first 5 minutes of the investigation

The ransom note alone tells you it wasn't an intruder. That note was fucking nuts. What intruder would've done that? And put the cap back on the pen and put the pen back in the drawer? Please.

The note and the elaborate set-up in the basement with the garrote, paintbrush, etc. That's too much time to spend in an occupied house.

The book that I read about the case (sorry, it was a long time ago and I forgot the title) detailed a lot of odd things, like the neighborhood sex offender Santa, etc. After I finished reading the book, I had doubts. Now, though, I think it was John Ramsey. The Boulder police fucked up the investigation very badly, allowing the Ramseys to move (wipe down) a dead body. They allowed friends to clean up the crime scene (house) almost immediately.

Even way later, the police department put out a statement "exonerating" the Ramseys. Why? Why would you limit yourself that way? If they ever decided there was enough evidence to prosecute John, they would now have to backpedal on that statement. Police would have no credibility.

She was being molested by her dad. This is a no-brainer.

The police were beyond incompetent. They fucked up everything that could've been fucked up. The ransom note and the glaringly obvious fact that the basement window had been broken from the INSIDE should've had them hauling John and Patsy to the station for an interrogation. And if it had been an intruder, why leave the dead child in the house? The body would've been taken away and buried in the woods or something.

R138 I always figured she got fat after the kids. Wasn’t she Miss Arizona or something.

They weren’t incompetent, they bent the knee to John because he is rich and powerful. Tale as old as time

The mom had vagina cancer and obviously her husband wasn't getting any sex from her. Who else to turn to? When is the last time to do it before a Christmas vacation with family? But what could have gone wrong? She threatened to expose him to her half-siblings in Michigan?

Why would John keep doing so many interviews over the years if he's guilty? He doesn't have to comment at all.

R166 right 😂. I don’t even know who that ho was.

R196, Miss West Virginia

R176. That’s not true. I believe I’ve shared this on here before. My dad lost virginity at 9 to a 12 yr old girl. I know because he told me. It’s a weird scenario but it happens. I’m guessing Burke was a very alpha 9 yr old.

Burke does not look very alpha at all.

Molested?? Did someone say MOLESTED???!!!!!

[quote]r12 All I know is one of those three, John, Patsey or Burke, caused her death.

You don’t say ? !

[quote]r98 Can we at least get her name right? It's JonBenét, no hyphen, no space. JonBenét.

And whose horrible idea was THAT?

It was Patsy's creation because John's middle name is Bennett. JonBenét Patricia Ramsey.

A multiple name harlot who couldn’t sustain.

i'm always perplexed at people who name their kids after a parent; it feels like they are denying them their own identity.

Has anybody watched JonBenét Ramsey movie "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town"?

R201 A 10 year old boy in my old neighborhood was having sex with and got a 12 year old girl pregnant. It happens way more than ppl think. Kids play doctor.Girls who were molested try out sex on younger boys.

R195 I can speak from first hand experience that some people are murdered by an outsider and then their body is hidden in the dead persons house and the killer flees taking no body with them but instead leaves it hidden in the house..

I would accept the intruder theory but the ransom note. The fact that they wrote the note completely makes the intruder theory collapse on itself. Reading the Wikipedia page, there is a lot of support for the intruder theory. But you can’t get around that damn note.

Didn't John Ramsey have an older son from a previous marriage? Was he around during the time of the disappearance?

R213 is a writer for Law & Order SVU.

R212, there's note only the note itself but the fact that the pad of paper and pen used for the note were put back in their usual places after the note writer was done with them.

R214 I do watch a lot of it. Can't not look at that guy, Christopher Meloni.

Burke knocked out that 12 year old's cervix! 😂

r217 Let's not speak like trash, dear.

Also, JonBenét was 6, not 12.

Is it pronounced John Bennett, or Zhan Ben Eyyyyy?

A close cousin of mine is buried in the same Episcopal church cemetery as JonBenet & Patsy in Marietta. Once a year I take flowers to the cemetery there is almost always one or two nutcases hovering over JonBenet's grave. I once encountered a small group of weirdos on their knees all around her grave splashing some sort of liquid on the headstone and praying for her resurrection. I assumed it was Holy water.

r219 At this point, she won't answer to either, so maybe it doesn't matter.

r220 Actually this sounds like a great idea for a DL meetup in the future

That wasn’t water

R218 He is not talking about JonBenet, he is talking about the girl Burke reportedly lost his virginity to. Follow the thread.

r224 You ok, sweetie?

I read a book by Lawrence Schiller, called Perfect Murder, Perfect Town which was made into a TV movie. I thought it was pretty good. I'm re-watching it free on YouTube.

R225 yes, why do you ask. You have to follow the thread to make sense of r218’s joke.

The news media fucked the investigation up and the local police and the local DA were feuding and leaking shit and the crime scene was compromised. It was a shit mess.

[quote] Is it pronounced John Bennett, or Zhan Ben Eyyyyy?

It's pronounced JonBenay

How frustrating we don’t fucking know this 30 years later! GD

It does seem odd the parents would do so many interviews if they are guilty. I even wonder did poor child simply injure herself. But she was actually strangled right?

It was her all along! Just like Fight Club!

She was hit in the head with what they speculated was a flashlight. She was garroted. The tableau in the basement with her and her blanket, and the garrote around her neck.... there was no reason why this murder is unsolved. So much evidence, but never gathered. The cops were incredibly incompetent. The crime scene was contaminated within minutes of their arrival. The Med Examiner techs closed up shop and walked a way in a matter of a few hours and this was a 3 story building with multiple opportunities for evidence to be found. At one point there was only one Detective in the house managing the scene with about 9 potential suspects including the parents and their neighbors, etc. Within and hour of calling the cops, John Ramsey had called his pilot to arrange to remove his wife and his son Burke to Atlanta where they'd be "safer."

More importantly...

R231, she was, as R233 says, strangled with a garrote made of a rope knotted around one of Patsy's broken paintbrushes. John had been stationed in the Philippines at the time when executions were carried out using garrotes.

People who visited the Ramsey's home in Atlanta said there were no photos of Jonbenet. No reminders of their daughter but strangely Patsy had chosen pineapple print wallpaper for the kitchen.

PATSY RAMSEY 1996 CHRISTMAS NEWSLETTER

Dear Friends, Family and Foreign Factions:

Listen carefully! We are a group of individuals having a lovely holiday! It's been another busy year at the luxuriously appointed Ramsey Christian home. As I told the children: Enjoy the celebration of the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because, you just never know, it may just be your last . . .

The older, unattractive children, unworthy of pageants, are doing stuff. One is on the East Coast (I hear from the gossips at the club) and one might even still be in Colorado. Coloring JonBenet’s hair and finding appropriate restraining devices for rigorous comb-outs keeps me far too busy to notice so many, many, many things. But I have started noticing SOME things.

Burke is a busy fourth grader trying to grow a brain. He's lost just about all of his baby teeth. He is welcome!

JonBenet, ever the minx, is enjoying her Daddy. Kindergarten in the Fashion Knowledge program, which includes both fashion posing and fashion moving, is fast paced, involves a lot of coffee and ciggies, and five full days a week. She has already been moved ahead a full grade in both runway and seduction. She continues to enjoy dressing up as a pint-size streetwalker in talent and modeling pageants. She was named "Miss Salacious” at a darling pageant in Tijuana, where her talent was singing “Boom Boom Boom Let’s Go Back to My Room” in Mexican. My goodness, she is so proud of all her sashes and tiaras! Which is why I have to remind her how small-time they all seem to a real Miss West Virginia. Her teacher says she is so outgoing that she will never have trouble delivering oral. Just ask John! Access recently celebrated its one billion $$ mark in sales, so he's in pretty good shape to buy my silence, if not participation in his “hobby.”

I spend most of my 'free time' working in the Sunday school and doing volunteer work, rebuking Muslims and other unsaved trash. My dear friend Betsy Richards’ ticky-tacky house with brick only on the front was on the home tour in July and will likely appear in one of the Better Homes & Gardens publications in 1997. Remember when that used to be the Bible of good taste? My goodness! I’d call it Bitter Homes & Garbage now! LOL! On a recent trip to NYC, my friend and I appeared amid the throng of fans on the TODAY show. My beauty caught the eyes of Al Roker & Bryant, and even though they are both unrepentant Negroes, I actually talked to them about JonBenet’s and my new Sister Act. I was on camera for all the world to see! Yes, just another thing, JonBenet will never be: A glamorous TV star!

We are all enjoying continued good health while it lasts and some of us look forward to seeing you in 1997! One final note ... thank you to all my 'friends' and my dear husband for surprising me with the biggest, most outrageous 40th birthday bash I've ever had! In case you didn’t pick up what I was just telling you: He spent A LOT more money on that one party than most of you will for rent and groceries all year! We'll be spending even more money on my actual birthday on the Disney Big Red Boat over the new year! Jealous? Oh, stop! If you think I’m famous now, well you just wait . . . LOL! ;)

Merry Christmas and much love, The Ramseys

JonBenét Ramsey "Bedtime Story" is the #1 Clue We All Missed.

OK, my scenario is this: She and her brother were having a snack in the kitchen, and she was teasing him. Either she reached into his plate or he reached into hers, but the whining and bickering and arguing about a pineapple snack got out of hand and Burke whacked her in the head with the flashlight. That was it. She was gone. Now remember it doesn't take a whole lot of strength to injure the head of a 6b yr old. Patsy instant sees what is happening and grabs Jon Benet while Daddy takes Burke upstairs and puts him to bed. He gets fussed at for hitting Jon Benet , but it's a very light reprimand. Dad wants things to seem normal. He assures Burke everything is fine, now go to sleep. He goes back down to Patsy. They are deeply upset but they agree that Burke didn't mean to hurt her, that she was dead and they had to protect Burke. They were in damage control mode. They come up with the kidnapping story. Patsy writes the note. Burke brings Jon Benet to the basement and garrotes and sets up the tableau. Now this was dumb, IMO, and maybe they planned to move her later. It would have been difficult to move her on Christmas night because people were celebrating the holidays and a lot of people were out and about late into the night and early morning. Probably wanted to wait until the 27th or so. Whatever. So they had the ransom note, they call the cops. Everyone, including the cops treats it like a kidnapping taking the word of the parents. Neighbors seeing the cop cars come over, the house is full of people who are all there for the family to support and help. Cops take no issue with it. After all. They believe the parents.

I think that’s what happened too, r239. I don’t know about the particulars of why he hit her, though. Maybe he was jealous because she got so much attention.

Only Burke was interrogated multiple times and even by child psychologist. He would have broke. He is either the most sociopathic 9 yr old of all time or he didn’t do it.

Burke didn't do it, for reasons r241 stated. It was either John or Patsy.

One theory I read on Reddit is that there was a predator living in the house secretly for up to a week. My true crime obsession made me come across all these theories.

R239, Burke was a child. When a child does something wrong he wants to run away and hide and pretend that it never happened. The minute he heard his parents calling someone and talking about his sister, and certainly the minute the cops showed up, he would have been terrified: he would have thought that his parents had told on him and he was about to be taken away.

Luckily for him, Burke has enough of tism to not feel any guilt over his sudden outburst that killed his sister

I’ve heard that before. Is he really autistic?

The thing that always struck me about John and Patsy was their iciness. In all the interviews they did immediately following JonBenet's death, John was always completely detached and without emotion. And Patsy would *sound* completely bereft, but she never, ever shed a tear.

Even in the footage of John and Patsy leaving the church after JonBenet's funeral, Patsy is looking forlorn as she greets friends and family, but again, no tears. And John is just kind of there, devoid of any kind of emotional presence.

If Burke had done it, I don't think the John and Patsy would have allowed him to be interrogated.

By that point, attorneys told the Ramseys that a child wouldn't get sent to prison, but they didn't tell Burke that and threatened him if he confessed he'd get sent to prison.

Also the investigators knew they were being taped and couldn't go hard press toward a child

I bet John loves all the speculation being on his son the past few years

What all of you don’t understand is that we all were truly sick of her and made a pact.

Burke didn’t do it because he didn’t confess!

Ok in that case Ted Bundy was, for years and years, the most innocent man in America.

Some people want the parents to be the guilty parties to a ridiculous extent. Nothing else really makes sense other than another child with a grudge and mental issues.

They couldn't move her body on the 27th because they had a 6am flight to Michigan and then they were headed directly to Florida for a Disney cruise. John and Patsy had no time to fart around because pretty soon people were going to notice Jonbenet was missing.

R239, look up Occam's Razor.

It was the dad. The BPD should have assumed this from the get go because it is almost always the dad.

- Christopher Lee Watts Formerly of Frederick, CO

Burke's story is that something woke him up. He heard Patsy saying "Help me Jesus,help me" as she came down the hall. Then she turned on his light and stood there for a few moments staring at him. He pretended to be asleep. If Burke is telling the truth it sounds like Patsy was checking to see if whatever happened to Jonbenet had woken him up.

It was SUSAN YVONNE PERKINS Miss Ohio 1977 and Miss America 1978! That cunt stole my crown and killed my princess (frankly I’d be happy to forgive the murder thing if she gave me the crown)

R253 once they called the police to report the "kidnapping" I seriously doubt they were going on a cruise. They had a plan. They wrote a ransom note then reported her missing. I don't think they planned on her being discovered in that basement room. I think they were trying to find an opportune time to remove her to a different location to reinforce the kidnapping theory. They probably should have done that before calling the cops. But there was too much going on Christmas night going into the Dec. 26th early morning and the risk of being seen was too high.

I'd have popped her in a suitcase and loaded her into the car, drove off to dispose of her, then report her missing. Friends had to know they were leaving town on the 27th so if anyone saw them loading a suitcase into the car it would have been unremarkable. . It could have worked.

If the murder happened around midnight on Dec. 26 they had about 6 hours to stage the crime scene and dispose of the body. When police arrived Patsy was still wearing clothes from the night before. Obviously she hadn't slept at all. Maybe they intended to move the body but ran out of time. They had to call the police because they couldn't show up in Michigan without Jonbenet.

They had a 6am flight on December 26 and wouldn't be home until after the New Year.

They can't put the body in a suitcase for fuck's sake. What are they going to say, she fell off the cruise ship?

R261, I didn't say bring her on the cruise in a suitcase. I meant they could have disposed of her without attracting neighbor's attention because their friends knew t hey were going out of town. John Ramsey puts the suitcase in the car, goes off to "get gas" or check the oil " or whatever excuse he wanted to use, he dumps the body goes back home and calls the cops to report a kidnapping.

You’d need much more time than that to “dump a body.” If you were that hasty they’d find it pretty quick.

If that was the plan I think it would have made more sense to cancel all travel plans at the last minute, citing a family emergency. Just be a no-show. And remain tight-lipped about what the emergency is.

Then you would have at least a day and night to THINK and try and act accordingly. Thoroughly dispose of the body. And I mean DISPOSE. Don’t write a ridiculous ransom note. Wipe down all evidence. Think about things like the broken window.

Later you could claim you didn’t call the police right away because you were intimidated by the kidnappers.

Hell, they’d probably still catch you in the end but at least you would not have looked like insane idiots.

The Ramseys apparently never watched Forensic Files or Dateline or any other true crime type show.

And the PD/Investigator obviously hadn't either. The crime scene and further investigation seems to have been really botched from the start.

It was the father. She was being molested.

There were so many red flags at the crime scene, and those stupid fucking cops ignored them all. The incompetence was unbelievable.

Yes, the cops messed up from the very beginning. There will never be justice for her. It's possible that someone got into that house and killed her, but we'll never know.

No way an intruder did it. The ransom note alone rules that out.

In Burke's alibi did he explain why he pretended to be asleep after hearing his mommy sceaming in terror and anguish?

All it shows is that Burke has always been an unfeeling liar.

A small foreign fiction

That's the thing...why would Burke be afraid of Patsy? You never know what goes on behind closed doors.

Ok. I posted on these every year for many many years, but my time here seems to be coming to an end.

If you visit an old blog, all you have to do is read the first two posts. John did it. I read every book on the case, even the book this blogger wrote, and I do believe he’s right! John is like Dump. He believed his money and power made him untouchable, and, he was completely right about it. The ONLY reason Patsy became a suspect was because John made her one! He had his handwriting experts announce a week after the murder that he was conclusively “ruled out” as the author. Which left Patsy. So that man threw his wife under the bus, and once she died, he then throws his crazy/disabled son under the bus too. John accused every single person they knew of the murders. It’s JOHN, y’all. The statistics are I think 13:1 that when I young female is sexually abused and murder, the oldest male in the home is the offender. It was JOHN. Stop overthinking it. And he gives interviews and ran for office as part of the ruse too. He even hired the most terrifying attorney in the US, whose name I will not post here, they sue *anyone* who calls out John.

Read the first two blog posts, plus the comments, you’ll fall into the rabbit hole, it will be so fun! The blog was active from around 2012 - 2020, but the owner leaves it up. It’s a fckn treasure trove if you’re into unsolved murders. Here’s the first link:

And here is the second one. Be sure you read the comments, I would read oldest to newest, the oldest ones are the best because that’s when all the evidence was still “fresh” for arm hair sleuths. You will 100% have questions on what he’s saying, and that’s the beauty of reading the comments. He answers ALL the questions. And then if you want to keep going, have fun!

But that dude proved (to me) that John did it, and he wrote that note thinking he could get Patsy to still get on the plane and take the other kids to MI, which would have given him time to go move the body. But Patsy wouldn’t listen to him, and he also told her to not call police, but she did anyway. I do believe that day Patsy knew in her heart that he had something to do with it, though she didn’t want to believe it. Then, the doctors put her on oodles of tranquilizers and benzos, and I think she just pushed it back down and chose to believe his lies. John told *countless* lies, she only told two. And I believe the two she told because John gaslit her into thinking her chemo-brain wiped her memory of him breaking the basement over the summer. “Patsy, we both know I didn’t do it. I broke that window, you saw it happen, but now you can’t remember. So if you admit to cops you don’t remember, I’ll go to prison when I’m an innocent man” blahblahblah. And she went with it.

Burke didn't fucking do it, he wasn't strong enough, this is a new theory and it's stupid. I thought it was agreed Patsy did it on accident. She was getting Jon Benet up and saw that she shit the bed, infuriated, she brought her in to bathe her and accidentally cracked her skull on the faucet. She panicked from there, and the rest is history.

But it is so weird that Beth Holloway ended up dating John Ramsey. I would think he would infuriate her, him knowing how his daughter was killed and her never having any closure.

No, it’s not “agreed” R274

Where were all of you when I needed you?

Because it was so emotional, R56?

How many of documentary’s of this poor kid are we going to have. As many as the Menendez brothers?

documentary’s

Oh, OH, dear.

[quote]How many of documentary’s of this poor kid are we going to have. As many as the Menendez brothers?

Oh dear's.

I'll definitely watch this. Like most people, I know the case well, but I'm always interested to hear other people's theories on it.

The ransom note proves to me that the murderer was one of the Ramseys. As others have said, no kidnapper would stay in an occupied house for the time it would take to write a long-winded bizarre handwritten ransom note with paper and a pen found within the residence, nor would they carefully return the pen and paper to where they found them.

But it's the fact that they specified the exact amount of John's Christmas bonus and bizarrely specified how the money was to be withdrawn and that an "adequate size attache" would be needed. It's clear that John was intending to put JonBenet's body in a case and get rid of her that way, then if there were any eyewitnesses, he'd point to the ransom note as the reason.

All these years later and I still can’t fathom anyone receiving such a large bonus.

[quote] I thought it was agreed Patsy did it on accident

It's "by accident," not "on accident." And no, it's not agreed.

The Netflix doc is up.

I expect this to be worthless propaganda

Why would the note writer specify the exact amount of the Christmas bonus? It seems stupid on their part to narrow the field of potential suspects to those who were aware of the bonus

R287 I think it's because John likely intended to withdraw the money from his bank account to make it all seem real, hence he needed there to be enough funds in said account. If it had been $100m that would have been slightly more believable, but many experts have said ransom amounts are usually a lot larger than that (especially as John was known to be wealthy).

So it's like he thought $100m wasn't enough, but he couldn't make it a lot more than that because he likely didn't have access to much more liquid cash than that.

The whole thing reeks of something that was done in a panic with little thought, which is of course it was (allegedly!)

John is the only thing that makes sense to me.

It was not an intruder. Ransom note details establish this.

Burke seems extremely unlikely given the sexual assault and the other gruesome details. Which is more likely? You do all that to your little angel to cover up your boy's accident or you do all that because you're a fucked up perv and then have to cover up your own shit?

That means it was John, Patsy, or both.

There is no reason for her to call 911 so early if they did it together.

The details of the note give HIM tons of leeway on how to handle the body if she hadn't called police when she did. This is one of the most telling things to me.

Bonus: Also, there is no reason for them to say they did not feed her pineapple if they worked together regardless of who gave her the pineapple. Just say yeah he/she gave her pineapple. In some interview, John points this out as a reason that "if we were lying, why not just say yeah we gave her pineapple?" That's because, John, you did not come up with that together. You had to lie about it yourself to both the police AND PATSY HERSELF because you gave it to JonBenet when you were alone with her. Patsy was telling the truth when she said she didn't give her pineapple.

I left out the biggest reason to think it wasn't Burke - Patsy's call to the authorities.

If it had been Burke and they were working on covering it up, that call should not have happened at that point.

R290, they had to call the police. They were scheduled to leave for a vacation. The only alternative was to stuff little Jon Benet into a suitcase and they depart for vacation as if nothing happened. Except, Oops! one of the kids is missing. Burke would want to know where she was. So they had to call the cops. I think the ransom note and the kidnapping were deliberate misdirection to get the cops out of the house and looking for the missing daughter. But from the moment they cops got involved John had no opportunity to be alone or dispose of the body. They were fucked. They should have got rid of the body before notifying the police. It's so obvious, and it's a huge misstep. How could they have not done that.

R289 when was it established there was sexual assault? This sounds like speculation not fact

They didn't have to leave for a vacation. You cancel the vacation and delay the call to the cops because the ransom note itself said not to call. That would be the normal thing if you were covering it up with this whole scheme.

The call to the cops at that moment only makes sense if it was Patsy acting on her own will for whatever reason, not in agreement with John.

Another clue that's not talked about much is that a neighbour claimed to have seen lights on in the Ramsey home just after midnight. If we accept the intruder theory, chances are the house would have been in darkness by then, given they were due to go on vacation very early the next morning.

I suppose the argument could have been that Patsy was doing some last minute packing, but I'm pretty sure she was a housewife and hence would have packed in advance.

R293 a last minute cancellation of the vacation before calling the cops would have raised major alarm bells. For me, it appears that they had decided on a plan. Write and note and say she was kidnapped. Next logical step is to get the body out of the house, right? If she was "kidnapped" she is out of the house. But they called the cops, Or Patsy did, too quickly and had no chance to remove the body, so t hey hid it in that back room in the basement. I'm trying to remember did the cops bother to search the house at all when they arrived? Or did they just go up to the bedrooms with John and Patsy to retrace Patsey's steps that morning when she "found" the ransom note?

R295 As I recall, the cops did a cursory search of the basement when they showed up, but not the small corner where JonBenet's body was placed. They were inept.

I don't think Patsy calling the cops necessarily exonerates her. It's possible she panicked and was worried suspicion would fall on them if they didn't call 911 straight away. It could also be argued that if Patsy wasn't in on it, she would have been more reluctant to call the cops given the threats outlined in the ransom note.

I seem to recall it was John and a friend who found JonBenet's body not long after they decided to split up and search the house. Almost like John knew where her body was. He also carried her upstairs which was a good way of ensuring the crime scene was disturbed. So, again, it could be argued that's why John went straight to her body, as he couldn't risk the cops finding her first - given they'd seal off the crime scene.

If John is innocent, I think his (anyone’s) natural instinct would be to, if not carry her upstairs, try to revive her/see if she’s alive — which would taint the crime scene.

Looks like this new show is just another pro-intruder propaganda.

Attention documentarians who want to get some free publicity - John Ramsey will still drag his ass off the couch for any program that points a theory away from his family. Too bad he wasn't this cooperative with the Police dept. Grow a brain John.

Act fast as it looks like he's going to be joining Patsy and JonBenet any day now,

R299 I'm not going to watch if they're going to focus on the intruder theory.

There is no credible evidence to support the intruder theory. Even with the broken basement window, there was a cobweb in front of it that would have been destroyed had an intruder come in or out of the basement.

Fleet White said the cellar was pitch black when John opened the door. There was no way he could have seen the body but he immediately started yelling and ran straight to it. John carried the body upstairs like a plank of wood, she was in full rigor mortis and starting to smell.

John seems much less sinister now that he’s a frail old man.

But still has that oily, know-it-all demeanor when he says “Patsy had just survived cancer, she wouldn’t be freaked out by a little thing like bed-wetting.”

He’s put a lot of effort into coming up with that.

It’s hard to believe this guy— who has obviously thought he was the smartest guy in any room his entire life— bungled this situation so completely.

I mean… A RANDOM NOTE? The only thing that was ever going to do is provide clues / evidence to the cops.

Make that RANSOM NOTE

R302 What does John know, anyway?

I was particularly on edge after all that chemo. The smallest things would drive me mad, so when that little pageant princess wet the bed AGAIN, I was so over it.

The Whites were the first people the Ramseys called and the first ones they threw under the bus.

R305 some people suggested White did it.

Fleet White has never been a serious suspect.

Offhand, I can't think of another crime where a ransom note was involved. That seems to be something you only see in movies.

R308 Indeed. Weren't some of the lines from the ransom note practically lifted from movies, too?

Ransom notes have existed in real crimes, but criminal experts say they're much shorter, along the lines of: "We have your daughter. Pay us 1 million or we'll kill her. Don't contact the Police. We'll call you".

Why would any kidnapper give details about themselves (eg "we are a small foreign faction")? If you're committing a crime you're not going to give unnecessary information about yourself.

"Don't grow a brain" was lifted from Speed.

In the 90s, I remember some speculation that the parents used the $118,000 figure in the ransom note to make it look like one of John’s (disgruntled?) employees had a hand in the kidnapping.

I wonder if Patsy caught John trying to dispose of the body and that’s why all the chaos (and failure to get the body out of the house.)

Let me spoil the docu for you:

"Who Killed Jon-Benet Ramsey?" We'll never know.

r272 - side note - "my time here seems to be coming to an end. "

Why's that??

The Ramsey defense strategy these days is to publicly push the police for more DNA testing.

It's a winning strategy for them as any Ramsey DNA can be easily explained away and any new DNA can further point away from the family that they never have to actually prove.

The Boulder Police are correct to keep telling John to go fuck off as any new DNA found could have been picked up from anywhere anytime outside of the house

[quote]"Don't grow a brain" was lifted from Speed.

That's true. Speed came out two years earlier.

Aside from the ridiculous ransom note, if an intruder had actually done it he would've taken JonBenet out of the house immediately instead of torturing/killing her in the house.

And then of course you had John screaming in the pitch dark basement before the lights were turned on.

How the police could've botched this investigation that a third grader could've seen was clearly the fault of the parents is mind boggling.

The Ramsey's were rich and white. There's your answer.

I have an encyclopedic memory of Forensic Files episodes (I am also the DL Forensic Files troll) and I can't recall a ransom note in any of them.

R316 And the embarrassment only got worse when the police claimed to have found the real killer, that absolute nutjob John Mark Karr, who claimed he was with JonBenet on Christmas Eve. I knew immediately that was bullshit, as JonBenet was at a party with her family on Christmas Eve.

Yet the cops put him on a plane, flew him from Thailand to the U.S., then paraded him around like they had finally solved the case. What abject ineptitude.

When John came running up the basement stairs everyone ran to see what was happening. Except for Patsy. I think it was Priscilla White who said Patsy was still sitting in the sunroom. John plopped Jonbenet's corpse under the Christmas tree in front of the horrified onlookers. Then Patsy ran out and flung herself onto the body screaming "Please Jesus raise my baby from the dead!". It was a wild scene.

Patsy was a total whack job.

She wanted to give the performance of a lifetime. After all that the Ramseys got on a plane before the body was even removed. They never set foot in that house again.

John was arranging a flight to Atlanta even as his daughter's body lay on the living room floor.

R311 That’s exactly why John did it. And I was mistaken it wasn’t Reddit, it was that blog post above. Take away all the chaos, noise, publicity, etc. and it becomes clear as day. John did this.

I vaguely remember that when the cops took handwriting samples from Patsy, they never asked her to write with her non-dominant hand.

If you write with your non-dominant hand (i.e. you're right handed but write something with your left hand) the handwriting looks totally different.

I'm halfway through the second episode and it's all making the Ramseys look innocent.

I guess maybe episode 3 presents the case against the Ramseys, but we'll see.

Of course the father did it.

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

The ransom note was a bad idea for many reasons. The logic above all. If an intruder had already killed her for no real apparent reason unless he had sexually assaulted her which he didn't why a ransom note? If money is what they wanted why not just actually take her? Why kill her and dump her in a corner knowing if a child is missing a parent will search the entire property thoroughly with or without the cops and she would begin to smell with a day or two? They weren't;t gonna end up with ransom money regardless. Makes no sense.

I was going to watch the Netflix doc, but now that I know they're pushing the intruder/kidnapper theory, I won't bother.

It's clear as the nose on my face that John molested her and killed her.

R330 I'm always interested in different theories on who may have murdered JonBenet, but the theories have to have some basis in fact and evidence.

There is not substantial evidence that points to an intruder.

So, yeah, I'll give this one a hard pass.

How the hell would I know? I’m stuck here in East Hampton!

Are we sure it wasn’t a rival mom from one of the pageants a la Texas cheerleader?

John seems to have made it his remaining life's mission to pursuade the public that his family didn't have anything to do with this. Thus this show.

Good luck with that. Maybe he's hoping that younger people who didn't follow this in real time could believe this?

If he participated in the doc I'm sure that motivated the direction of it

He also did an interview with Crime Junkie podcast. I'm sure he wouldn't agree unless they went with the intruder theory.

Well, I've sat through all three episodes, just in case there was even a hint of balance, but nope. Pretty much everyone interviewed either directly or indirectly states they believe there was outside involvement/an intruder. It's not even close to being balanced.

The ransom note is barely mentioned; only a short extract of it is read out aloud. The ransom amount is brought up as "strange" but it's explained away as the intruder likely went into John's study and found that amount mentioned in a letter.

The last episode devotes a lengthy section to some weird fantatist who emailed and called a journalist who's convinced the Ramseys are innocent. They even play some of his dirty fantasies knowing his DNA wasn't a match, but then say the DNA was likely messed up anyway so he (and any other suspects) might be guilty after all.

There's no mention of the fact the basement window was broken from the inside, the fact undisturbed cobwebs were there, etc. Subreddits are featured right at the end that show many 'websleuths' believe Burke did it, but it's all explained away as the rantings of unhinged weirdos.

Maybe the only slight saving grace is that it concludes by confirming all the legal action the Ramseys have taken against various documentary makers/TV networks who pointed the finger at them. Which perhaps is a bit of a hint there... In other words "if we'd followed any other narrative, we'd also be paying an undisclosed sum to the Ramseys". But they still could have shown more theory as long as they presented it as the opinion of other people.

As others have said, I think the fact John Ramsey and his son agreed to be on it shows it was only going to go one way.

By his son I don't mean Burke, but a son from a previous marriage. Burke was approached for an interview but declined.

Apparently anyone BUT the Ramseys. Now the Mrs. Patsy assigned posts won't be quite so funny because of this mess. I hope another network does a different doc (HBOs docs have been better than Netflix on a few occasions).

My webslething still points to Burke as the assailant

[quote]The ransom amount is brought up as "strange" but it's explained away as the intruder likely went into John's study and found that amount mentioned in a letter.

Yeah, when somebody breaks into an occupied house they just leisurely mosey around and poke through everything. JFC.

This doc sounds like a joke.

That house was like a maze. Only someone who had been in there before would have known about the wine cellar. The housekeeper said she didn't know it was there until she was in the basement helping Patsy put stuff away.

And this being Colorado, it was likely the homeowners were armed.

I'm too busy to speak with Netflix, I need to make my special Xmas chocolates

I wonder if John gets off every time a new documentary airs. Psychopath got away with murder and gets to enjoy the thought that he's outsmarting a bunch of people every time they do this crap.

That picture of Burke in Episode 1 at around 35 minutes from the end - wow, he looks special.

Another thing I forgot to mention about this documentary is that it felt very 2024 in that it really played the "fake news" angle.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure many of the trashy tabloids did make shit up, but this latest program tried to discredit even the local media. And most of the journalists who contributed seemed desperate to prove that they were 'real' journalists who were a million miles away from all that fake news trash.

Then, as it went on, it was clear many of the participants were linked in some way - eg the ex detectives who were mentees/fans of Lou Smit. So of course they were gonna believe (and perpetuate) all his intruder theories. John's current wife even featured at the end. It was just all really weird.

Makes sense r347 The Ramseys and Dr. Phil had the same attorney when they sued CBS for their program that pointed fingers at them.

And we all know how red Dr. Phil's hat is these days.

Well, it's clear where the director's opinion lies...

[quote] Who killed JonBenet Ramsey?

ALL OF US!!

Why can’t John just be content with getting away with murder!

Why does he care at this point?

[QUOTE]Why would any kidnapper give details about themselves (eg "we are a small foreign faction")? If you're committing a crime you're not going to give unnecessary information about yourself

The ransom note also mentions Subuc Bay in the Philippines where John was stationed in the Navy. IMO this, knowledge about the amount of the Christmas bonus, and the "small foreign faction" stuff was an attempt to make it look like it was some terrorist group who'd been stalking John decided to target him for funds. The Philippines had/has some Maoist/Communist insurgents.

It's all John and/or Patsy concocting a fanciful story with the help of Hollywood plotting and scripting thinking it would throw off the cops. And it appears it did.

R351, there are some people who always want to have the last word. They want to control everything.

^ You're right, R353--classic trait of narcissists and sociopaths. Always the last word.

I usually want to give people the benefit of the doubt, but it makes me slam on the breaks whenever I hear John and Patsy referring to JonBenet as "that child" or "that baby." Sum Ting Wong with that vernacular.

I was thinking of the scenario of a robber gaining an intimate knowledge of the Ramsey family by talking to one or more of their employees and being able to gain access to the house and knowing where to hide when they came in from the Christmas party. Then JonBenét getting up in the night to have a snack and coming across the burgler, who, in a panic, hits her over the head with the first thing to hand - a flashlight - then brings her to the remotest part of the house and stages the scene to cover up the real context of the crime. Burgler crafts an elaborate kidnapping scenario to sow confusion and prevent clues from being picked up then escapes by the same method of entry.

Where this falls down is John Ramsey's suspicious discovery of the body and Patsy's bizarre reaction. Also Burke being troubled and other things that attest to an unhealthy family dynamic.

Sum Ting Wong was our Dry Cleaner and his DNA was all over JonBenet's clothing.

Why haven't the Boulder Police brought him in for questioning yet?

Frankly r356 there a lot of other easier ways to make 116K than going through all that trouble and potential prison time.

Am I hearing John correctly when he says that he broke the basement window out (instead of simply calling a locksmith) and then he never bothered to have the window fixed? That can't be. They went six fucking months with a giant hole in their house? How did wildlife not inhabit their basement? Not to mention all the freezing cold December air that would've been blowing through the house along with other elements? Plus, it was the kids' playroom...we're supposed to believe the kids didn't use their playroom even once in six months? 'Cause they'd have noticed the fucking broken window in their playroom. What am I missing with that broken window story?

R356, of course, no burglar would wait to break into a house in the middle of the night when he could break in while the whole family was out of the house at a holiday party. And why would a burglar spend an extra second in a house where he has killed a small child?

r359 the broken window was yet another giant red flag that the idiot cops chose to ignore.

It is just unbelievable to me that out of all the cops and detectives who worked this case, not a single one of them ever said "there is so much about this crime scene that doesn't make any sense at all."

It's like the Keystone Kops were the main cast of the PD

The lead female cop on the initial scene locked eyes with John after the discovery of her body. At the moment she knew he did it. Tells you everything you need to know.

Patsy told the housekeeper that she hated blowing John. His penis was sour and his hair got caught in her teeth. Patsy wanted to know how she could she make it more appealing and Linda Arndt was like "Well, you either love the guy or you don't". Maybe Patsy thought someone from the lower classes would have those skills.

Patsy was also low key racist. She informed the detectives that some "colored" children had been going around selling magazines door to door. She could tell they weren't from her neighborhood but they might have been casing the joint.

R359, that fucking window. John claimed that sometime during the summer he had locked himself out of the house and, rather than do something sane, like call a locksmith, he’d broken a basement window, one that was so narrow that he’d had to strip down to his underwear to crawl through. Yet somehow he wasn’t injured and he did not bother to have the window fixed or even covered up.

Just did a quick search and there's a good number of titles, so was wondering if there are any biopics, or good documentaries that are worth watching/recommending?

[quote] The lead female cop on the initial scene locked eyes with John after the discovery of her body. At the moment she knew he did it. Tells you everything you need to know.

Yet she allowed them to move the body, swab down the body, etc.

He did it alright (allegedly!!). The window was a ruse. Earlier in the morning no one even noticed a broken window, it was broken during the hour+ that John disappeared to “get the mail”. He went down there to stage it as a break in. And then later lied to cover up his staging, and his lie had to include Patsy too because he needed someone to corroborate his story.

Here’s what you’re all not getting. John worked in cybersecurity. If you dig in to that blog, you’ll discover that the note was actually mostly *traced*. That’s right. You read it. That blog author was able to determine the correct font, spacing, kerning, all the formatting needed, and I wanna say it was say halfway or more traced (as in printed, then traced). Why? To disguise the handwriting. Why disguise your handwriting to that degree if you’re an anonymous intruder? Try googling for “John Ramsey handwriting sample” it’s the most sought after treasure in the sleuthing world. There’s just one example from a small claims court suit, so he’s worked very hard to ensure no one ever sees his handwriting too. Why would someone do that?

Another thing. Because we didn’t live in a Stasi-state, there wasn’t surveillance back then. But they did have records showing that John traveled frequently to Amsterdam and into the red light district. Maybe it was regular whores, maybe something worse? Idk.

John did lose a lot of money over this, but don’t feel bad for him — he made up for it on the backend with lawsuits. So he’s got you all thinking that he just wants the killer caught, that’s why they made another movie, when in fact, it’s become a lucrative side hustle for him. He made a shit ton when his son sued CBS, if memory serves. He doesn’t need to prove his innocence, they can never charge him now anyway, and he knows that. So in my opinion, he’s now doing it for the Benjamins.

So the man molested a young child, repeatedly, assaulted her, murdered her, faked finding her body, orchestrated an entire legal strategy to defeat police, and now he’s found ways to make money off the murder of his own daughter that HE committed. He’s *up there* in the HOF for evil, rotten, nasty, sadistic killers. And he gaslit Patsy that whole marriage, I’m sure that’s also why her cancer came back too. She was going to make a deathbed confession to a detective, but the visit was never published in a book or interview (memory fuzzy).

Patsy may have hated the act, but she had enough oral skills to become Miss West Virginia and land herself a rich husband.

Patsy wasn't rich, newly divorced John's only option. She had to put in the work on her knees to make that happen.

I think John dated Beth Holloway because he thought he could monetize their pairing. His third wife was an actual Vegas shoe girl — odd, after he blamed pageants for luring a stalker into JB’s life. If you just put John through a DJT filter, it all makes sense. He’s a grifter.

I think that morning after he had to be SHITTING because he has a house full of people plus a detective left after cops had searched the place. Imagine the pressure! So he spent the morning deep in thought, figuring out how to resolve it. And he sure did, didn’t he? I’ve always thought he put the window glass into his golf bag because when police let them do a pick up for supplies, he *insisted* on his golf bag, just like OJ lol. Golf bags are deep, it’s a great temporary hiding place.

Fun fact: John Ramsey grew up in the same town as I did! Jealous, bitches? He was a cutie back in the day, too:

Cutie? No.

R369 Regarding the ransom note, they kept saying how handwriting experts had ruled out Patsy as the note-writer, but she was hardly gonna write it in her own handwriting, was she? It looks like it was written with a non-dominant hand, as it's all spidery.

Also, there are two spelling mistakes early on in the note ("bussiness" and "posession") but the rest of the note seems fine. So it's almost like the author deliberately made a couple of spelling errors early on to give it an uneducated air, but then they forgot about that the further they got through the note.

[366], did anyone ever corroborate John’s window story? Surely others would have known about him being locked out and climbing into the basement - Patsy, Burke, the Whites, etc. Landscapers and housekeepers would have noticed the broken window if it had been broken for months. Were they questioned about it?

I couldn't care less who killed the little bitch, I just want John's mammoth cock deep inside me!

Broken from the inside out, not out to in as John claims is the outstanding issue, right?

I have to wonder if Natalee Holloway's mother ever got any sort of vibe from him at any point. An initial immense relief knowing someone understands and sympathizes... And then... ...

The Smit guy focused a lot on the window and grille - but he said that exonerated the Ramseys - given there appeared to be vegetation under the grille which supported the theory it had been placed back down recently.

The problem is the length of time that's passed and the fact much of the theory is based on old photographs. There's also a lot of hearsay.

R343 Colorado is a majority blue state, and Boulder is probably the most liberal city in the state (think Berkeley with mountains).

Gun freaks like Lauren Boebert are mostly relegated to the mountains and eastern plains.

R375, my memory is very fuzzy on the window story because there were so many details to it. I can’t remember if he got the housekeeper to corroborate maybe? But her story was easily shown to be a lie perhaps? Either that or it was just he and Patsy with his story.

Don't you hate when you have a net worth of over $7 million but don't have the money to call a locksmith?

R381...or the resources to have someone come out post haste and replace the glass in the very small window?

[quote]I have to wonder if Natalee Holloway's mother ever got any sort of vibe from him at any point. An initial immense relief knowing someone understands and sympathizes... And then... ...

Don't get me started [hiccup] on that cheap fucking whore and her slut daughter.

Throwing herself at my John like [hiccup] some bitch in heat! He wised up to her antics real quick.

R367, the made for TV movie I liked best for the way they portrayed the whole mess, is called Perfect Murder, Perfect Town. It's adapted from a book by the same name. You can watch it on You Tube for free. It's a made for TV movie so it's never going to win an award, but it was well done, and very believable. Focuses on the cops and the DA and how everyone fucked up. John and Patsy don't come out of it looking good either.

R380, Patsy tried to back up the broken window story. She was out of town when John claimed that he’d broken into the house, but she said that she and the housekeeper had cleaned up the glass when she returned. (Obviously, John couldn’t be expected to do something menial like that). Mentioning the housekeeper may have been a mistake because don’t think that the housekeeper remembered the broken window.

The housekeeper, btw, had her own key to the house, so John could simply have called her if he’d been locked out.

It’s no wonder everyone on the police force started to loathe these two.

[quote]It’s no wonder everyone on the police force started to loathe these two.

John was such an arrogant asshole, he treated the police like peons who were beneath him.

It's awful that he got away with it, he was clearly guilty.

R386, it’s echoes of “Trump 2024”, no? The bad guys are winning, they’ve all already won. It’s a pattern now.

I wonder if this happened today, if things would be any different.

If John had been molesting her for awhile, why would he suddenly decide to kill her? She could have told at any time. And why so violently when he could have strangled her with one hand? My (crackpot) theory is that parents covered for Burke because they didn't believe him when he said he didn't do it and was afraid to name the actual killer(s): his (older) friend(s). IIRC, John even named one as a suspect. Burke lured her to the basement after giving her some pineapple (Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl) and someone was waiting. Things got out of hand, a scream was heard and someone got away with murder (so far)..

r388 If this happened today, half the block would have porch and doorbell cameras, easily disproving the intruder theory.

Was it confirmed that Burke was actually sexually experimenting with that 12 yard old girl? If so, could he have been trying that with his sister? He was a weird as fuck kid. For those who claim a nine year old is unable to be curious about sex. I had a cousin who was alway trying to get out friends to feel his dick when we were in 4th and 5th grade. But it still sounds a bit far fetched anyway.

R299 Agreed. When I saw that John was on this, and Linda Arndt wasn't, I knew it would be bullshit. I guess it's not surprising, Netflix will never call a guilty person out. The Steven Avery thing was the beginning of them trying to exonerate a killer.

So true r390. Cameras are everywhere now, nobody can really get away with anything.

Just think about how many crimes could've been solved.

OJ is another one. His Bronco would've been captured on multiple cameras going to and from Nicole's condo. If that happened today, he wouldn't have had a chance of being found not guilty.

The ground was covered in snow and there were no footprints. How anyone can think the intruder theory is true is ridiculous.

R374, it looks to me as though the writer of the note used their non-dominant hand to write the first page, then gave up and switched to their dominant one. The handwriting looks much less shaky on the second and third pages (and also starts to strongly resemble Patsy's sample). I think Patsy initially tried to disguise her writing (hence the early spelling mistakes) but after a while, she started to panic and focus more on the actual content of the letter.

R394 Oh they address that right away! They say there wasn't any snow that night, and then show a pic with some snow in it.

Do they show what happened to John Mark Karr? What a freak.

R384 Thank you!

R395, you are correct about the handwriting except that it was a he, friend.

He was tracing that note from a printed copy (created a draft on Word and set it to not save the data). He was also ad-libbing once the tracing stopped, which is why he slipped and forgot to continue misspelling words in his fake “foreign faction” note. NO woman could think to use “foreign faction” in the hysteria of killing or witnessing the death of a child. But who could/would use a term like that? A business man who had international affairs who is an engineer and a sociopath, that’s who.

This latest release is a *disgusting* cash grab by a killer and pedo. It’s revolting. And if it happened today? He would get away with it even faster because the rich have taken over the legal system now. Regardless of cameras everywhere, he would have had his team destroy all the evidence. Look up info on his polygraph his lawyers gave him and what happened to those records too lololol, then you’ll understand how the world works. Money = power = crime = no punishment.

Yes! Perfect Murder, Perfect Town is great! Written by Larry Schiller who is mentioned many times in "The Executioner's Song". It has Marh Helgenberger who is way too pretty to be Patsy, but I digress. It's like 3 hours so I put it on to relax while I'm trying to nap. Also "Small Sacrifices" with Farrah is on Youtube and about 3 hours, another good napping movie.

Delta Burke was born to play Mrs. Patsy Ramsey.

They shoot fat girls, don't they?

After watching series …. My God! What the media did to that family. It’s despicable.

That said….Mrs Patsy Ramsey of Boulder, CO, you’re always welcome at DK.

Thanks for letting me know it’s all pro intruder theory. Will not be watching.

Yep R404, I feel the same. I watched one and a half but seeing John on it, I knew it was kind to him.

There's a vid by ABC News on YouTube titled "JonBenét Ramsey's father believes his daughter's 28-year-old murder can be solved" and the comments are eating it up! Lots of people expressing sympathy for John and hopes they find the real killer.

We will never know what exactly happened that night, but there was NO intruder. Some of these people just want this to be more complicated than it is.

OH FANK YOU!! Netflix for uniting the DL JonBenet websleuths for the holidays to at least agree that your "THERE'S STILL AN INTRUDER OUT THERE" program is complete bullshit.

Piece of crap. Exonerates the parents but offers no solution.

Netflix also put out some shitty "documentary" series about the crazy Michael Peterson guy -- stairway killer. The producer was fucking (ugh) Peterson. Peterson is one guy I think is fucking guilty as hell. Two women dying in a staircase?

I don't understand about the window. It was used an evidence of an intruder or it was something that had happened before? What was going on there?

John built his whole defense around the intruder theory r410. There was a broken pane in the basement discovered after they found her body. Lou Smit took it and ran with it. It’s absurd. The window was covered with grime, yet there was not a single smudge. Investigators went so far as to identify what exactly produced the cobwebs in the window to show how long the cobwebs had existed, and yet they were all undisturbed. Lou made a video showing how an intruder could climb in, it was tight AF, and truly impossible to have the grime and cobwebs all left undisturbed. So the window is a big fat nothingburger red herring John created to keep the focus off of himself.

R410, the obviously fake ransom note was meant to show that an intruder had broken into the house and purportedly kidnapped JonBenet. Of course, that's an incredibly weird story, so at the very least the real killer would have wanted to prove that the imaginary killer could have gotten into and out of the house.

I wonder if a loving parent would really call 911 right away, despite the threat of beheading her. I have no kids and really don't know what I would do or how I would feel.

Huh?

Good Morning Boulder!

R414 The ransom note said, "if you call 911, we'll behead her" and they called 911 right away.

One or both of them wrote that ransom note. IMO. They knew she was dead, already, and was already "beheaded."

Yes, you're right R417. They knew she was dead cause they did it, but would someone who actually didn't kill their kid call 911 if a note threatened to behead them? I'm thinking not, probably, esp if they were rich and could afford ransom like the Ramseys. Just another strike against them, the racing to the phone to call 911. Mrs Patsy Ramsey of DL shows us how much Jon Benet wasn't liked.

[quote]Patsy initially tried to disguise her writing (hence the early spelling mistakes)

AND hence!

R198 doesn’t know the difference between a vagina, ovaries, or a cave (probably).

Any human being might call the police if they are hysterical r418. Patsy did not write it or she would not have called the police because the whole purpose of the note was to buy more time. Just reread it — and ask yourself what the purpose was?

In the Netflix doc, John gave a few elaborate explanations. He practically smirked after delivering them— so pleased with himself.

Thats the kind of idiot who writes an elaborate, fake ransom note.

I kinda love how Netflix is recycling true crime’s greatest hits.

Laci Peterson, Menendez, JonBenet. Even that notorious felon Martha Stewart!

The Laci Peterson made for TV movie with Dean Cain as Scott was really good.

[quote]I don't understand about the window. It was used an evidence of an intruder or it was something that had happened before?

R410 And the suitcase under the window? I don't get the significance of that, especially the way it was positioned under the window...it would never have borne the weight of an adult.

R424 r425, damn this site sucks

JONBENET ON NETFLIX "Crystal Clear" Docuseries Does Well To Muddy The Waters.

Patsy is dead....Why doesn't the hubby just put the blame on her

Patsy was only 49 when she died.

I was a Discord server recently where -- believe it or not -- some people had watched the recent Netflix documentary but didn't really know much about the case itself. They were making comments about how sick people who think the family were involved must be.

When I told them about lots of evidence the documentary missed out they were surprised and said if the Netflix documentary had covered that, they might have felt differently. I suspect there are many others who will react the same way they initially did.

A smarmy Republican type I went to school with had the Lou Smit book. I had the distinct impression this guy over-identified with John Ramsey and that’s why he needed to buy Smit’s theory— which is different from saying he thought John Ramsey was innocent. He was weirdly invested in John Ramsey getting away with everything.

25 years ago I thought the Smit book was interesting, then I gradually started to think you’d have to be crazy to buy Smit’s intruder theory. Lo and behold, 25 years later the Lou Smit theory gets trotted out again.

Yeah I did wonder about Smit and his motivation. Why was he so invested? I'm not suggesting for a second that he had anything to do with the crime, but it seemed to be a personal crusade. Maybe he just got too close to John and Patsy, or maybe he just wanted to crack one final case before properly retiring.

The photographer who took the picture at R389, Randall DeWitt Simons, was sentenced in 2021 after being convicted on 15 counts of child pornography. In addition,

[quote] According to the book “Perfect Murder, Perfect Town” by Lawrence Schiller, Simons was arrested in 1998 for allegedly walking nude down a residential street in the small town of Genoa, Colorado. Simons allegedly offered to the arresting deputy unprovoked, “I didn’t kill JonBenét."

He probably didn't do it, but knew he would be a suspect. I haven't read the books or watched the documentaries, so I don't know if he was investigated.

Total family affair. The dope from Netflix doesn't think so, thus, no reason to watch.

R432, because he was a great and dogged investigator and knew the Boulder PD had blown it.

R430 Of course. I stopped watching it when I read here that the Intruder theory was being pushed, but of fucking course Netflix presented a one-sided, totally biased, account. God I hate them. And the worst part is people like you mentioned really think this is a thorough account.

I was worried this chick was dead when I didn't see her in this doc, but then when I saw it was pro intruder theory, I realized why she wasn't in it.

The doc did have a few Linda Arndt clips. She looked wild-eyed and crazy (not an accident, I’m sure.)

Only a total moron would believe John, Patsy, or Burke were involved in killing JonBenet. I’m surprised that Dataloungers even take that dumb stance. Infuriating.

Who else could it be? Name a realistic suspect.

There’s morbid entertainment in theorizing all the different scenarios of how John and Patsy could have ended up murdering Jonbenet, but the totality of the evidence supports their innocence.

What kind of father dredges up the murder of his 6 year old daughter and allows explicit descriptions of her brutal killing in a splashy documentary thirty years later? He seems to have no interest in "finding the killer." He only seems to want to exonerate himself and maybe a little bit Burke.

A father with a profit participation share r441

That Netflix money can ease a lot of guilt and shame

R438 and r440 = John Ramsay.

30 years, people. Thirty effing years, and no "real killer" of JonBenet (or Nicole and Ron) found. Riiiiiight.

One person "found" JB. One person put his fingerprints all over her body after removing it from, and thus contaminating, the crime scene to carry her upstairs. One person received a Christmas bonus to match exactly the weird "ransom" demand ($180,000). One person thought he could still go on a planned trip. One person sat beside Patsy when she declared there were two people involved in this crime. Patsy was, of course, being truthful here.

I daresay there are more in-family murders than intruder murders. Especially by "intruders" who left zero evidence of their presence; not method of entry/exit, nor any witnesses thereto, including means of transportation and where parked; not any noise of the slaying or of getting JB to the basement; not finger- or footprints; not DNA; no skin under JB's fingernails; not prepared ahead of time "ransom" note, but a lengthy one written on Patsy's paper, including a rough draft, requiring extra time on the premises, thus risking getting caught; and no explanation of how some intruder would know the unusual interior of the house, from the back stairs where the note was "found" to the hidden basement room where the body was "found".

Jeez Louise. Some people act like they have no idea that offspring killing, "sacrifice," is as old as humanity itself, and is enmeshed in our myths and religions (Jason and Medea. Abraham and Isaac. "God gave His only Son....").

Or to bring it closer to home, Susan Smith and Diane Downs are, as we speak, both seeking parole.

Jon-Benet Ramaswamy

Linda Arndt instincts are dead in.

Listen, women have EXCELLENT instincts. It took me a very long time to finally admit this to myself, however, it’s absolutely true.

When women say something like this @ R436, listen to them & consider trusting them.

Women know when people are creeps, and women who are detectives are usually really honed into what’s really going on when spending their day in the home of a child murderer.

Can you imagine ,how Patsy would have handled being convicted of killing that pint size harlot?

She wouldn’t have lasted a day in women’s prison.

Oh I don't know R446, I do pretty well in Chowchilla. I don't have to worry about Fuckhead and the Cunt anymore.

Sometimes you need a little BOOM BOOM!

So I’m not a JonBenet stan, but u watched the doc anyway.

The theory that always made the most sense to me is that Burke and JB were scuffling and Burke went too far and cracked her over the head with, maybe, the flashlight.

The parents were desperate to cover this up.

But where this gets murky is the garrot and the penetration of her by the paintbrush. Even if a parent is desperate to protect their child, how can you do that to your child’s dead body?

There’s also the question of the timing of the garrot being used. If she weee dead, maybe? But if she were alive, which I think is what is alleged in the doc, how could a parent do that to her? Too horrible.

^^^ but I watched

But her skull was cracked with so much force I don't think Burke could have done it. I don't see John and Patsy covering for anyone but him, though. This is a tough one, but it's definitely one of the three of them.

I highly recommend the interview at r436 to anyone who believes the Netflix documentary.

Yes, the lady has bug eyes and is defending herself from criticism, but it is a damning interview.

And I don't mean her read on John or her own fear for her life. In fact, put all the opinion stuff to the side.

The fact that there was no reaction to the time that the kidnapping call time came and went is damning beyond belief.

Side comment, while she made some mistakes, people were (and still are) too harsh on her given the fact that she was the only one in that house for an absurd amount of time. Just the kidnapping and phone call story alone deserved more than one person in there not to mention it taking 20 minutes for more help to show up after the body was "found". That isn't on her.

The Datalounge is certainly obsessed with this little dead girl.

R453, this whole case is DL catnip.

A domineering, forceful mother hellbent on winning whatever the cost. A wealthy, horsehung father willing to stick his prick in anything with a pulse. A little boy smearing his excrement all over the home and family possessions who nearly presented hole to the interviewing authorities. And at the center...a lost, little girl who just wanted to enjoy some pineapple and please everyone around her.

Toss in a small foreign faction, a dude named Fleet, a trigger happy female investigator, a police force that makes the Keystone cops look competent and some gay weirdo falsely admitting to the crime and you can see why we're so obsessed!

[quote]But where this gets murky is the garrot and the penetration of her by the paintbrush. Even if a parent is desperate to protect their child, how can you do that to your child’s dead body?

The use of the paintbrush is weird and strikes me as something a child might do. An adult perpetrator is not going to waste the opportunity to violate his victim using more conventional means.

I disagree with that. A perv, whether children or adult, is capable of doing weird, pervy, unusual things. I don't think the paintbrush tells us whether it was father or son.

[quote]She wouldn’t have lasted a day in women’s prison.

It's not too bad. I have a lot of time to check my pictures, and Roy Suckaboo and Diana Basta visit me.

The same unidentified male’s DNA was found on the waistband of her longjohns and in saliva in her panties. That means it can’t be a factory worker’s DNA. It was her killer.

No parent would garrote their child and stick a paintbrush in her vagina to cover up an accidental killing by their other child.

Why would Patsy call the police immediately if the ransom note was to buy time? Why would John include the exact amount of his Christmas bonus if he wrote the ransom note?

Get real morons.

Has anyone ever entertained the idea that all 3 were involved with her death?

Patsy goes to the basement and discovers Burke sodomizing JonBenet with a paintbrush. Patsy goes to whack Burke with the flashlight but hits JonBenet in the head. John hears the commotion, runs downstairs to see Patsy in hysterics and JonBenet on the floor, shaking...near death. He grabs the jump rope and mercy kills her.

All 3 vow to cover for one another.

R441, a father who wants justice?

Sign the petition to force the Boulder police to test the remaining DNA.

John is 89 years old. He will be dead soon. He should have a chance to get justice before he dies.

A 12 year old who attended the same dance school as JonBenet and lived less than 2 miles away from her was raped in her bedroom 9 months after JonBenet’s murder. Her mother was home. Very rare for an intruder to attack a child in an OCCUPIED home.

The Boulder police found a handprint on the wall but only used it to exclude the father. They wouldn’t submit evidence and would then lie saying they had. They wrote strangely accusatory and defensive case notes re: the father’s insistence they investigate.

The father hired a private investigator finally and he found the same type of Camel Blue cigarette butts found in the alley outside JonBenet’s home. The BPD said they could t get enough DNA to test but never even tried.

John did it. I'm not signing shit.

If John was a molester/rapist, why were there never any other accusations or insinuations as he’d already raised adult children with his wife who died? No member of his church or one of hundreds of his employees ever noticed any weird or antisocial behavior from a man who garroted and raped his daughter on Christmas with a broken paintbrush?

He never stole from people or institutions, cheated on his wife, abused his children or pets, treated his employees poorly, or evidenced ANY other antisocial behavior or r tendencies aside from a brutal murder of his child?

It isn’t like he was unknown—they had tons of friends they saw frequently, were very active in their church, and he had tons of employees in a successful and high profile business.

Because he killed her and wrote the note, r458. Everything about the note makes sense when you realize he came up with a plan in a panic. The details of the note make sense when you realize he was trying to give himself time.

Oh shut up r463

“Amy's father told The U.S. Sun how he told Boulder PD the incident may have been linked to the murder of child beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey, who was found dead in the basement of her parent's home two miles away just nine months earlier.

Amy attended the same dance studio as JonBenet, and both of the girls performed in a number of public events in the months before they were both victimized.

But Amy's dad said Boulder police were "dismissive" and "disinterested" in investigating any potential parallels between the two cases and were at times hostile towards him for making the suggestion.”

“They were completely uninterested," Amy's dad said. "They didn't care about this at all ... they would just lie, telling us they'd look into this or that - but they hadn't.

"They were total bozos."

Among the evidence he claims they overlooked was a handprint found on the wall of Amy's bedroom.

Amy's dad explained: "They took no evidence. They dusted the place - one room - for fingerprints.

"They found a handprint but they weren’t interested in seeing who it belonged to.

"I asked them over and over again 'did you check that handprint?' and they told me 'oh yeah, yeah, we're doing that' - but they never did.”

Looks like John Ramsey's PR firm has found DL.

John and Patsy are responsible. End of story.

R465, why shut up? This is an echo chamber of stupidity. Why are you so invested in the family’s guilt?

r469 all of the suspicious things are on this thread. Only a moron would think an intruder did it. Are you the poster who thinks OJ was innocent too?

Sign the petition to allow the remaining evidence to be tested for DNA. Othram says they can do it.

If John, Patsy, or Burke are guilty, let’s find out.

“onBenét Ramsey deserves justice and new advances in DNA technology finally make that possible. Colorado Gov. Jared Polis, you are the only person with enough power and independence in the state to put Ramsey DNA testing decisions in the hands of a new agency that’s free from Boulder’s significant history with the case.

Since her death in 1996, advances in DNA have allowed for testing of even trace amounts of severely degraded samples. Combined with innovation in forensic genetic genealogy (which led to the arrest of the Golden State Killer), new arrests and identifications in cold cases are happening across the country at an unprecedented rate. Private labs like Othram use best-in-class technology to work directly with law enforcement and state crime labs to support the processing of samples. In fact, earlier this year, police in Denver (less than 30 miles away) used genetic genealogy and familial DNA to solve four homicides from the early 1980s.

So why is new DNA testing technology and forensic genetic genealogy searching not being used in the JonBenét case? Here’s what the Boulder Police (BPD) posted on the 25-year anniversary of the case:

“As the Department continues to use new technology to enhance the investigation, it is actively reviewing genetic DNA testing processes to see if those can be applied to this case moving forward.”

They can. Right now. Everyone who understands this technology knows that.

Boulder Police are working hard to placate the public by telling the media that they hope DNA will solve this case while, at the same time, doing very little to make that happen. And it makes sense: the same two key investigators from 1996 still have control of the case. Isn’t it time for new perspectives and ideas?”

Perhaps it was a cop? One who smoked Camels? Is this why the police are dilly dallying?

Question: If the 12 year old was raped 9 months after JBR’s death, wouldn’t she automatically undergo a rape kit? Wouldn’t semen provide enough DNA? Or is the BPD one of those police departments that let rape kits sit in an evidence room for years and years, without ever profiling the DNA?

Make it make sense, because it doesn’t, even if the rapist wore a condom, his DNA would be all over the 12 year old, due to skin cells.

It’s very important for investigators to trust their gut, but I think Arndt emphasizing this so much might have been a mistake. It makes it seem like she’s ignoring evidence.

R458 Get real morons? As opposed to fake morons? And where did you hear this about the three dna things that could not have been a factory worker? Did you hear it from the Netflix doc? Get real, moron indeed! Netflix is so corrupt, they never present an objective look at anything.

Where's the petition to keep Burke away from flashlights?

I'll sign that one.

r473, people go after her because she admitted to be afraid of her and call her "trigger happy" and other such shit, but this is the idea I think she was trying to get across.

She is there all alone in that house for hours. She's an officer so thinks like one. She even says herself she makes notes and tries not to judge. But she's bending down next to the body, he joins her in bending down, at the moment she looks at him, and all of the weird things she's noted come back to her. And she is in a vulnerable position.

Her officer side is realizing she is probably there alone (in terms of no other officers) with a man that is capable of killing his own daughter. If he is capable of killing his own daughter, he's capable of killing everyone else in that household without remorse. Furthermore, it's HIS house, so if there is a pistol hidden in a drawer somewhere, he would know it. He has every advantage if he decides to just take them all out.

So, I totally get her fear.

But since people will discount her gut and all that, I say stick to the more non-opinion based things she noted. Like the fact that there was no reaction when the ransom time came and went. That's truly odd and damning.

The moron-caller in the thread is obsessed. Well, more obsessed than the rest of us.

This crime is one for the ages. A hundred years from now people will be flying over the flooded ruins of New York City in their hover car, bitterly arguing about whether it was Patsy, Burke or an intruder.

"whether it was Patsy, Burke or an intruder"

No, we won't because it was that child fucker John

^^^ mental illness on full display

John reminds me very much of one of my uncles (by marriage.) Very smug, smooth, image conscious Republican. But his (my uncle’s) personal life is utter chaos. Multiple marriages, one marriage to a pill head whose kid died from an overdose, one marriage to some crazy bitch who was in a custody battle for one of her grandkids, another relationship with a woman who slashed his tires, a third early marriage appears to be the only normal relationship he ever had.

He is supposedly a successful attorney but always begging his elderly parents for money, the list goes on.

In the doc, John made a comment about one of his older daughters always looking out for him so he wouldn’t be alone on holidays. That strikes me as very odd and suggests John was pretty dysfunctional. (Not being alone— the kid “looking out” for him.)

Also, he was attracted to hee haw, crazy-from-space Patsy when he was fresh off a bad divorce.

I’ve known some men with very dark energy who seem attracted to unstable women because they assume they are easier to control. Just sick.

It’s also hard for me to imagine a guy like John thinking it’s ok for his young daughter to do those trashy beauty contests. That’s more for the trailer trash crowd. So fucking weird.

As I said up thread, I believe it was an accident. I think Burke hit her harder than he meant to and she died and her parents covered it up to protect Burke. Burke probably didn't even know she was dead when they rushed him up to bed. Argue with me if you want but that's my theory.

[quote] If John was a molester/rapist, why were there never any other accusations or insinuations as he’d already raised adult children with his wife who died

He had never before encountered a sassy, pint-sized harlot like JonBenét.

Likely Patsy wasn't even around when Burke knocked his sister out with the flashlight, so when Patsy did discover this, she sent Burke straight to bed without him knowing that she was dead and then she and John concocted this elaborate coverup to protect him.

Looking on social media was a mistake. Lots more people believing this stupid documentary. They are convinced the Ramseys are totally innocent. Bashing Linda and everyone else who thoughts otherwise. Obviously it was an intruder from a secret sex cult or something like that!

Whatever.

John did it.

BTW, I forgot that Ramsey attorney L. Lin Wood had to surrender his law license and agree to retire permanently to avoid being disbarred due to his involvement in the 2020 election denial cases. Great guy they hired!

There was snow on the ground. There were no footprints.

R239 is an idiot. So is anyone who thinks a nine year old has the mental capacity and physical strength to beat, strangle, and sexually assault his sister. Then bring her body down to the cellar where she was discovered, then keep his cool as detectives roam the house looking for clues, not to mention the media circus from beginning to end, and not once in thirty years has he slipped. Not once! That's not human. You would have to be a robot. It is a completely unrealistic scenario. You write like a failed true crime novelist. The most obvious answer is often the correct one. When all the children in the house are dysfunctional, it always goes back to mommy and daddy.

Oh, shut up. I don't think it's Burke (the murderer), but no need to call anyone an idiot. We can all have different opinions without becoming unhinged.

R487 You need to toughen up, buttercup. This is datalounge. An idiot is hardly the worst thing you can be called on here.

JR is probably making some pretty good money doing bullshit documentaries and podcasts. I've went back and forth in my opinion of who did this, for years. I'll go years without thinking about it and then come back to it again. One of the crime scene photos of Jonbenet shows the ligature around her neck. It was pulled tightly. Then the way she was violated in other ways makes me not want to believe that one of the parents did that. I know parents do kill and molest their kids, but, SMDH, the police really fucked this up. Why did the police leave Linda Arntd there for 6 hours without any back up? That rambling letter had details of JR, and it seems like a fucked up screenplay. But, when I listen to that 911 call, Patsy seemed genuinely and profoundly distraught. Why did JR let her make that call? If he really thought it was a " foreign faction" it seems like he would have tried to handle it without getting the cops involved, at first. My brother was a juvenile detective back then and immediately told me it was the mother who did it and he thought JonBenet was being sexually abused. The way she was highly sexualized in those pagents makes me wonder about Patsy's mental stability, too. Whoever killed her must have been in a rage. One parent covering up for the other, but which one did it? The whole crime scene was half ass staged. I don't think Burke did it either. A nine year old kid wouldn't write that ransome note and stage that whole scene. If there was an intruder then why did they leave her there if they wanted money. No, it had to be one of the parents.

You don’t need to be “tough” to get fed up with across-the-board mental illness.

As the kids might say, take your wheelchair outside and let the wheels touch grass.

Yes R486, I agree.

R490 Cry into your soup bowl, Mary. I don't give a fuck. Next!

JonBenét Ramshey.

I changed my mind after watching, now I don't think the parents had anything to do with it. One thing the docu confirmed for me, media culture is terrifyingly unreliable, the news lies right and left to get ratings, clicks, whatever, the police are only interested in closing every case regardless of the truth, justice is not blind, it's bent to the benefit of those in power who want more power.

R494 Hooray! I successfully brainwashed someone! My work here is done!

I've read the books but for John's.

The best is "A Mother Gone Bad" ("Mothers Gone Bad" was the name of Patsy's softball or other team).

It thoroughly shows---via the "ransom" note as well as known missives of Patsy's, by comparing her syntax ("And hence," e.g.); imagery ("big ship" not as attractive as "a little ship," e.g.); topics (Christmas prep, e g ); life events (Patsy's advanced cancer, e.g.); and even penmanship---that Patsy not only was guilty (at least 50%); she was "getting back at" John for, among other things, making her travel alone (fly) to her cancer treatments.

There is much more.

R458, YOU get real, NAIF. JOHN didn't write the ransom note; his guilt-ridden and VERY BITTER WIFE did! "Don't try to grow a brain" was said TO John, not BY him.

Patsy's subconscious VERY MUCH wanted to "tell on" John, healthy, creepy John. Indeed, that is exactly why her CONSCIOUS mind couldn't help but state that "there are two people involved"!

As for what parents can or cannot do, in your estimation, to one child near certain death to save their only remaining child (together), you are sorely lacking not only in imagination but also in the wicked ways of the world.

Why "ruin their lives" any more, if JB had no chance? THAT IS WHY Patsy took control of the situation, probably excoriating John as a weak coward and maybe molester, writing the note (her paper), getting and affixing the props, etc.

Never forget the power of religion to help comfort the guilty and reassure them that "God still loves them." As Patsy wrote as the note's ending: "S.B.T.C.!"

Saved By The Cross.

But didn't the handwriting experts say it wasn't her handwriting R443?

R497, John signed it that way to keep her attention. The note was for her, and her only.

A trusted expert believes that after he hit her on the head, he thought she died, but she did not, she kept breathing. So the theory is that he strangled her manually. Then it was time to stage the scene. His concern was evidence in her body. He wiped her down clean, threw rags in washing machine (that was run!). Then he decided on the garrote to try and disguise any impressions made by his fingers/hands — that’s why he tied it so tightly. And that’s why the wrists were so loose, he didn’t have to hide any impressions on her wrists. He decided on a fake sexual assault, and grabbed the closest tool to stage it, which was Patsy’s painting tools nearby where she had an easel and canvasses. He broke a paint brush, inserted it several times to stage the assault.

He spent all night murdering her, staging the scene for cops of something went wrong, then spent the rest of the night composing the note for Patsy in the hope that he could get Fleet to take her to the airport so he could stay behind and “pay the ransom”, and he then planned to destroy the note too.

The End. The most obvious suspect in any child murder is the oldest male in the household. You’re trying to mage an elaborate group murder, because you dislike all of them, not the truth is the most simple one. It’s John.

No r498 they couldn't prove it was Patsy's. There's a big difference

There's a zillion handwriting experts who have said a lot of things. Some of them say everyone but her can be ruled out, for example.

The letter answers a lot of questions, but it doesn't definitively tell us whether it was written by John or Patsy.

One reason I haven't seen discussed here for why I think Burke did NOT do it is that if Burke did it, there's not a chance in hell the parents are letting a nine-year-old kid with issues out of their sight yet he was sent to a friend's house that day (and eventually interviewed by police there). Not a chance in hell the parents are going to give him the chance to blab and say who knows what to other people out of their presence.

r499 your scenario makes the most sense.

Yeah, that was my thinking, R501. If Burke had done it, I don't think John and Patsy would have allowed him to be interrogated. Also, it wouldn't have seemed that fishy to disallow it. (You're being protective over your child.) I also don't think it was Patsy. She seemed like she may have slapped her (JonBenet) around or verbally abused her for wetting the bed, yet again. Who's left, considering that very specific, leisurely ransom note? John Ramsey.

There were videos released of Burke being interviewed and it was very obvious that he was a withdrawn and guarded child and highly unlikely to blurt anything.

There's no perfect crime, the Ramsey's had to take some chances. They couldn't shoot down their neighbor's offer without setting off more alarms.

I agree with you R 501. There's just no way they could always control what he might say. For instance when he was being interviewed by that counselor.

I really disagree, r504. You don't risk your own ass on a child not saying ANYTHING incriminating when unintended if he knows something. A child does not think as carefully as an adult and wouldn't think as cautiously about little things that could be incriminating. I can't see a man like John relying on that.

If you keep him there, you can control what he says or stop the conversation entirely and talk about lawyers should the worst happen.

I really don't think Burke did it. And I don't think he knew anything except her being missing. (He did not seem to know she was dead when talked to at the friend's house.)

When a new chief was hired in Boulder, she disciplined 5 officers for not doing ANY investigation work for years on their cases. She wanted to fire them but the police union prevented it. Of course, Trujillo was one of those detectives. No wonder nothing has been solved in 30 years.

R504, if Burke had, in fact, killed his younger sister, the last thing any parent would do is think, “sure, he can be trusted to be reasonable. It’s safe to let him out of our sight.”

R502, I wrote that, and I agree, that I can’t take credit for the theory, others came way before me.

But if you believe that theory now — wrap your brain around how John has succeeded in using the media to not only point them toward other false leads (the man ALWAYS has a new suspect for them), but the fact that he’s actually *profiteering* too). Like this Netflix special. It’s up there with OJ and Trump. A truly evil rich man can get away with anything in America if he’s smart enough and craven enough. This man even threw his wife under the bus for years, his BFF, and then his own son. There is no bottom for John, truly. Why? Because it gives him pleasure to control the narrative, he’s a sadist so he enjoys watching the heat on other people, and he’s become fabulously richer to boot. Quite the racket.

Transitioning to a new system and realized cases hadn’t been investigated in years. All 5 officers recommended to be fired. The officer in charge was Trujillo who the Ramsey said lied repeatedly saying he’d sent evidence in for testing despite not having it or not having ever sent it in.

It was later proven that John’s team was meeting with the prosecutor on the regular, AND that multiple officers who were assigned to the case worked for them too. It’s another reason it will remain unsolved — the DA and the cops don’t want to reopen old wounds that will completely embarrass them.

Last but not least, they’ll never retest the DNA for the same reason. What if it did come back as John? Do you know how bad they will look now lolol????? It will show how corrupt and incompetent they are. He gets away with it. Welcome to America.

Forgot to add at r511. Steve Thomas got fooled by John’s handwriting team too. Once he had it in his head John was “ruled out” as the author, by logic, it had to be Patsy. Handwriting experts were not even a peer-reviewed science back then. It was mostly quacks. The FBI only added a unit and made efforts to create operations-reviewed experts many many years later. And guess what the experts decided? Handwriting analysis is ONLY a tool when the writer is not trying to disguise. Then, it can be useful. But when they’re hiding their true handwriting? Not so much.

[quote] It’s up there with OJ and Trump. A truly evil rich man can get away with anything in America if he’s smart enough and craven enough.

What a moronic comment R509 you should have just stopped while you were ahead. First of all, OJ and Trump are celebrity men, which automatically puts them in a separate box from Ramsey. Second, on both the OJ case and the Ramsey case, it was incompetent police work that kept those crimes from being solved. It has nothing to do with being 'smart' and 'brazen', especially if people know you did it, but there's just not enough evidence to convict.

[quote]But, when I listen to that 911 call, Patsy seemed genuinely and profoundly distraught.

From Reddit’s JBR forum:

Kimberly Archuleta, the 911 operator who took Patsy's call, reported that she heard something weird to her supervisors. Kolar:

> Archuleta asked her supervisor if police had listened to the 911 tape and was told that they had already obtained a copy of the recording: “What about the end of the call? Have they listened to the tail end of the call after Patsy Ramsey had stopped talking?” The supervisor looked back at Archuleta with a puzzled look on her face. “What are you talking about?” she asked. The 911 call didn’t end when Patsy stopped talking to her, Archuleta explained. The telephone line had not disconnected immediately, and she had heard a definite change in the tone of Patsy Ramsey’s voice before the call was fully terminated.

> Archuleta explained that the hysterical nature of Patsy Ramsey’s voice appeared to have dissipated, and she thought that she had been talking to someone nearby at her end of the telephone line. Investigators needed to listen to that extended part of the 911 call, Archuleta told her supervisor.

She wasn't fully certain what she heard, but thanks to her suspicions, the police decided to look closely at this call.

The extended call part that is amplified is highly suspect to me. One of those things that can be debated forever But here is something that is not debatable. (But of course the reason for it can debated.) This interview with the Ramseys. Go to 6:05 and watch until 6:20 or so when she says keep your babies close to you.

Look at John's lips as Patsy talks. At first he says it's OK, then he mouths her line as she struggles with it. Could mean nothing, but really interesting...

In the interviews John and Patsy did, he always let her do most of the talking. He always seemed to be lurking. He always had that half smirk on his face, too. Like a self satisfied smile. If Patsy KNEW he did it that means she covered for him, did all those interviews and protected him. Yes, he's always controlled the narrative and he's still doing it. He seems GLAD to do interviews and has an answer for everything. I can't imagine what their private conversations might have been like to get the intruder story straight. She must have slowly come to realize that he did it and then blocked it out? But if she wrote the Ransome note then she knew from the beginning. The statement in the Ransome note that said " John, don't try to grow a brain and SBTC" just sounds like her.

Omg, R499. Horrifying for that little girl. Nobody to protect her. I'd forgotten about Lin Wood and that crooked cop who didn't have evidence tested.

I wrote that on Reddit R14. Early this morning. It really does seem like she was genuinely distraught. That's what always confused me.

I believe there was a grand jury investigation-one that ended without charges being brought. There were several people interviewed who haven’t spoken publicly about the case, but their perspectives would be fascinating. John’s former friend Fleet White’s statements would be fascinating to read. He knows something. I think there have been calls to unseal the grand jury testimonies but the DA hasn’t budged. Maybe once John passes away.

I read a few books on the case a few years ago. Something that stands out is that someone in the Ramsey household made several after hours calls to JonBenet’s pediatrician in early to mid-December, but the calls - or the medical issue prompting them - were never followed up on. In her questioning, Patsy was very vague and unsure about having ever made the calls. It was really bizarre.

Also, I remember thinking that Patsy really didn’t keep a close eye on either of the kids. Jonbenet could easily have been molested by someone involved in the pageant circuit like a photographer or one of the family’s many hired staff - lawn, gardeners, handymen - around the house. I had a grim thought that that poor kid was probably molested by more than one person in her short, tragic life. She was oversexualized and under supervised.

I remember that interview well R 515. She's so out of it that I don't think she's acting. It does seem like he's coaching her toward the end.

I firmly believe that John Ramsey killed JB and was molesting her. Maybe he went into her room for one more late night "visit" before they family headed out to stay with the relatives the next day. JB's head injury was a violent forceful impact - someone in a rage would do that. The Netflix documentary is all hands on deck with the father's version of events. The father is a narcissist and was a successful, wealthy stand-up guy in the community who got away with murder. Not the first time and it won't be the last time.

He certainly knew what she was going to say at that point, r520. I don't think she's acting, exactly. The emotions are probably as real as they can be while drugged up. I do think they had planned some things to say. A guy like John isn't going to leave it all to chance.

I agree R22. But her being drugged up and then doing that interview was taking a chance. She could have said anything if she was part of it. Being drugged like that you're not really in control. There's so many conflicting things about this case.

A grand jury in 1998 voted to indict both John and Patsy. The DA declined to file charges.

New thread. This one is acting up.

Side discussion that is just for "fun":

Two days before Christmas someone dialed 911 from the Ramsey's residence and hung up. The police went to the door and were told (I think via intercom) that Fleet White had misdialed when trying to call about a prescription for his father. They didn't press the matter and left.

OK, that's possible, but I'm wondering if it's true. This was during one of their parties.

What if JonBenet called 911 then freaked out when the operator answered and hung up? I think if an adult dialed accidentally, they would say, "Oh, I'm sorry, I meant to dial..." when they got the 911 operator. But a child might freak out and question their decision.

I speak from personal experience because I dialed 911 when I was about six, then I freaked out and hung up when the voice came on the line. The police showed up and went away when someone at the house told them no one they weren't aware of anyone dialing.

In this scenario, John knows it was JonBenet (or figures it out) and just has a friend tell the police off with something and treat it like a kid mistake.

But John knew it wasn't an accident. That was just what he told others.

This combined with those recent visits to the doctor makes John really worried about being found out and contributes to what happens soon. Maybe she got a bit too loud. Maybe she bleeds. But already feeling the walls closing in, he panics and offs her.

It's possible the earlier 911 call was really as claimed, but I do wonder...

Beware the pro-Ramsey thread some asshole posted and filled with about 20 of her own posts.

Yes, r527, I noticed that too and commented on it in the fake "new" thread. It's someone intentionally trying to fuck with the discussion on here!

There is no justice for JonBenet. She's forever dead and catching her killer is no use to the dead. We just want to hang somebody, ANYBODY, so WE will feel better.

Good post, r511. One thing not discussed enough is how powerful John's team was when it came to controlling the narrative. Constantly having his own people do and say things while in contact with the DA. He was (still is) a wealthy man with powerful connections.

The guy just keeps adding to the posts in the fake new thread. I find it really bizarre how obviously he is pushing that "Ramsey's are innocent" message.

So, continuing the discussion...

When John dies, can you imagine the shit that is going to come out from all the people terrified of talking?

It's going to be so juicy.

R531 I think it's Hortense. The same person who always defends Chrissy Mess.

John Ramsey is almost 81 and nobody lives forever. After he croaks within the next few years perhaps it will be like r532 said. Nobody will be afraid of him anymore and maybe they'll talk.

What's with Burke in the police interview sitting/laying sprawled out like he is on vacation? Strange.

What's a Ransome note? Why capitalized? Why the "e" on the end?

[quote]What's with Burke in the police interview sitting/laying sprawled out like he is on vacation? Strange.

It was like he was trying to seduce the investigators.

When asked by a child psychologist to draw a picture of his family less than two weeks after the murder Burke didn't include his dead sister in the picture, something which psychologists say is unusual in young children who have lost a family member. Burke also told this same psychologist when asked how he was coping in the aftermath of the murder of his little sister that he was "getting on with his life."

JOHN RAMSEY Gives INSANE 90 Minute Interview.

That pint sized Jezebel is dead but life goes on. Now, eat your pineapple.

The poster is still at it on the new fake thread.

r540, although I think it was all John, the Patsy Ramsey signature joke will never not be hilarious to me. One of DL's bests.

R542, the real Patsy was sad and disturbed, but Mrs. Patsy Ramsey, DL persona and voice from beyond the grave, is ruthlessly great.

She really was a pretty little girl (without the pageant hair/makeup) although Patsy must have been bleaching her hair. The comments made about her at the time about her being like a little woman and being sexual would be politically incorrect today.

Eh, calling her sexual back then wasn't cool either, r544. But pageant culture is weird.

Her face looked just like Patsy's.

r546 she probably would grow out of the cuteness as she got older

Hopefully she would have turned out better than Patsy, r546. Sadly, we'll never know.

R543 she was a great DL tradition but not anymore. Too many lame users have appropriated and ruined her “voice”.

So I'm glad that this isn't all "Burke did it!" A few years ago, the Dr Phil interview is what made people think it was Burke, and I remember John being on there, and not sticking up for Burke. I found that pretty fucked up, but it makes sense, if people think it's Burke, they won't think it's John. And R494, are you for real? So you now believe the media lied but Netflix didn't? Jesus, you must be a defense attorney's dream juror, until the prosecutor does his opening, and then you'll think he's right. Have you never done any critical thinking? Both sides are going to try and sway you, you need to pick one.

I find some of Burke's reported statements and behaviors in relation to his sister odd and concerning, but it's a bit of a climb from there (for me, anyway) to conclude that he was capable of killing her. His affect seems way off in the footage in which he's being interviewed by a psychologist not long after JonBenét was murdered, and I don't know what to make of other reports that he seemed bouncy and upbeat throughout the funeral and subsequent mourning period when both his parents appeared devastated. Even if I hated my sibling, I would still be affected by her unsolved violent murder, and the fact that Burke did not seem terrified by the horrific events that took place in his own home is weird. It could just be that he is neuro-divergent or developmentally delayed but it's still worrying.

Where does that leave us? From everything I have read I don't see enough evidence to support the Ramseys' defense that an intruder or intruders did it. If someone outside the family did commit this crime then I would expect to see other similar cases in the same area with a similar MO, but as far as I know there are none.

If Burke hit her accidentally and she died, they could have just posed her body at the bottom of the spiral staircase and said she fell.

That's what puzzles me, R552-- there are so many potential 'outs' for the Ramseys if JonBenét's death was truly accidental. The needless and potentially damning complication introduced by the ransom note baffles me. I just don't understand how anyone could be so crazy as to compose a melodramatic missive like that and expect people to believe it. The note is absurd and didn't gain any advantage for anyone. The first FBI agent to have sight of the ransom note even before John Ramsey found JonBenét's body said after reading it: "You're going to find this child dead."

R21 try the link below. Even if you bookmark a site or post, it doesn’t stop the post from being changed.

R553, Rage, grief, shock, and fear all combined from one unthinkable moment inside the brain and body of an exhausted cancer patient who likely was the (shared) cause of that moment, might just have a way of making someone "so crazy as to compose a melodramatic missive...."

Do you at all believe Patsy right then was capable of thinking totally rationally?

I mean, yes, she was, in the sense of desperately seeking a "way out." And, frankly, it still appears that she succeeded. "And hence," the note to blame "a small foreign faction" (like cancer cells?).

But murder will out. And nothing wants to out it more than the guilty subconscious. It was Patsy's subconscious that dictated the wording, the imagery, the sarcasm, the length of the note. On her personal notepaper.

I repeat, "A Mother Gone Bad." It's merely spinning the same old "I don't understand how..." wheels until one has read this book.

Remember: Patsy was compelled to inform us, not speculate, that "there were two people involved." Why two, not 3, 4, 5, or a "faction"? Why make what amounted to a confession, sitting next to (but not touching) John, as she waved two fingers practically in his face?

If you had told her then that she was confessing as well as blaming her husband, no doubt Patsy would have recoiled in horrified denial.

Yet the subconscious....

I don’t believe Jonbenet’s death was an accident. I do believe that either the mother or the brother snapped and hit her on the head. The family may have believe Jonbenet was either dead or dying. How do you explain a skull fracture innocently at a hospital? To rich white collar people, the thought of prison was worse than death. John did the garrote shit and may not have realized that it was then that he killed her. Somebody snapped and hit her in a moment of rage, so it was not an accident.

I can't say what happened, but I will tell you that little cunt never fucked with my food again.

[quote] John did the garrote shit and may not have realized that it was then that he killed her.

Huh?

I remember in the 90s there were a lot of stories in the media of children as young as Burke being prosecuted for murder as an adult. Maybe they were worried he would end up in prison?

The pineapple is interesting and possibly of more relevance than you might think. There were a number of household items not in their usual locations that neither John nor Patsy could explain to investigators. The bowl of pineapple on the breakfast room table is one of them. The bowl had Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints on it, yet Patsy claimed that she could not recall buying any pineapple recently, and in his interview with Dr. Phil Burke said that he didn't remember JonBenét eating pineapple that day or night. Partly digested pineapple was found in JonBenét's digestive tract at autopsy indicating that she had eaten it less than two hours before her death.

The significance of the pineapple is that it calls the Ramseys' timeline into question and raises doubts about their truthfulness in general. Patsy and John told police that JonBenét fell asleep in the car and they carried her (still asleep) upstairs to bed after the family returned home from the Christmas party at the Whites' residence. If the Ramseys are lying about a seemingly inconsequential thing such as their daughter having a late night snack then they could be lying about other things. Also if an intruder was already lurking somewhere chez Ramsey waiting to strike, how did JonBenét not encounter that person when she was downstairs eating the pineapple?

In the crime scene photos there was also a box of tissues in the breakfast room that Patsy said should not have been there and for which she had no explanation.

R559 No child as young as Burke has ever been charged with murder.

Maybe Patsy really did do it. I go back and forth.

R499 How do you explain that the DNA under J's fingernails did not match anyone in the house?

They'd just been to a Christmas party where I'm sure JB was playing with other children. It doesn't seem that far fetched that she'd gotten some of their DNA under her fingernails while playing around with them. It's interesting to note that the foreign DNA found under her fingernails did not match the foreign DNA found in her panties.

Bumping the real thread.

Yep, lots of inconsistencies like that, r560.

Nothing will top the ransom note for obviousness, but lots of other reasons that they're full of shit.

I consider the intruder theory a basic IQ test. If you believe it, you're a dumb dumb.

Another reason John did it. One of the scientists who examined her autopsy report said that the velocity of the head bash was equal to a 300 lb man “felling a tree”. In other words, like a high-speed locomotive. So no, Burke could not do that. Nor could Patsy. But John? I’ll let you think about that.

The only good part about how he hit her head is that it was from behind her, so it’s pretty clear she most likely had no idea it was coming, and based on the length and type of fracture, she didn’t appear to be running (it was a clean, targeted, massive blow, designed to kill in a single strike if full contact was made).

Remember, the odds of it being anyone than the eldest male in the household are 13:1 (no idea if that’s changed over the years, but I doubt it). There has also never been another case like it, ever. John’s lawyers who not only completely tied in to the CO governor’s office, the DA, LEO, but they were connected in DC as well. It’s one of the greatest cover-ups.

On the calls to the peds, Patsy was going there constantly because JB had constant infections (classic sign of SA!). I think she had gone almost 20 times in 18 months to doctor. I think Patsy, like most women, remained in denial, and then they got ped to bury the medical records because they all believed he was innocent and didn’t want to see a “good man” go down. Also, doctor may have become suspicious later, but feared malpractice and failure to report (court-mandated). John was the only person JB would let wipe her after going potty (another classic sign of SA!!!). Everyone thought it was a little girl being “picky” not realizing it was happening. It was grooming and he was already deeply into an abuse pattern, likely right after Patsy got sick, so about 3 yo is roughly when it began.

Look where his left hand is in photo. I have grown kids. No, my partner doesn’t accidentally almost touch their genitalia in a staged, formal family photo shoot. This guy was like Michael Jackson, he’s trolling us with his pedophilia, No shit. He always felt untouchable. “I could shoot a man on 5th Ave).

But why would Patsy cover for John by writing the ransom letter? And then she stuck to him like glue in the months and years following. Why wouldn't she have resented him for what he'd put her through, both by killing their daughter and by having her raked over the coals by the media?

Guilty people get cancer

[quote] But why would Patsy cover for John by writing the ransom letter? And then she stuck to him like glue in the months and years following. Why wouldn't she have resented him for what he'd put her through

She was a hillbilly from West Virginia and she enjoyed the lifestyle she had with John. She probably did resent him for killing JonBenét and making her (Patsy) part of his cover-up.

In the Netflix documentary (plus one other I watched about this case) they show a gruesome photo of a completely scalped/cracked skull. Was that JB's actual skull? I've never heard of them completely removing someone's head and de-fleshing their skull during an autopsy or murder investigation. Am I missing something with that? What further confuses me is that the family supposedly held an open casket viewing at some point. Seems highly unlikely if JB's head had been removed. Sum Ting Wong!

R570 Some of yall are so narrow minded. The whole damn state isn’t poor white trash. That ho was in beauty pageants and stuff. That doesn’t usually attract the lower classes especially those who win. She just came from a regular middle class southern household I bet.

All in all, I think she likely didn’t write the ransom note. Remember it was never determined conclusively who did so. This Frau was suffering from cancer and I bet even after she realized “he did it”, she deluded herself that it could not have been him, because the con would be a harder pill to swallow. She literally is dying from cancer and then married a man who not only was molesting their child but then ultimately killed her and a kidnapping because of so. She wasn’t in her right mind.

Her wikipedia states her dad was an accomplished engineer and manager. I swear some of y'all need to leave the island of Manhattan or West Hollywood because you live in stereotypes.

R439, Gary Oliva.

It's standard in an autopsy if blunt force trauma is suspected as the cause of death. Jonbenet was buried wearing a crown and likely a wig so her head injuries wouldn't have been noticeable.

It's a horrible thought but maybe Jonbenet was was refusing to perform a certain act and John struck her out of rage.

The media circus surrounding this case reminds me of a post 9/11 Onion headline. "America Longs to Care About Stupid Bullshit"

[quote]It's standard in an autopsy if blunt force trauma is suspected as the cause of death. Jonbenet was buried wearing a crown and likely a wig so her head injuries wouldn't have been noticeable.

It would take a whole lot more than a wig and a crown to make her look presentable after removing all of the flesh from her skull though? Like her face and everything was...gone.

There are plenty of women who stay with a man who abuses or even kills their child.

[quote]And the embarrassment only got worse when the police claimed to have found the real killer, that absolute nutjob John Mark Karr, who claimed he was with JonBenet on Christmas Eve.

I realize that most of you on this thread know a lot about this case and I don't, but I'll go ahead and add something I remember from back then. There was one part of the news around this guy that made me wonder just a little, and I know it sounds like a reach but it was interesting.. He had signed a high-school classmate's yearbook with the phrase "I shall be the conqueror" and after he brought in for questioning she (the classmate) re-read it and wondered if that was what "SBTC" at the end of the ransom letter stood for. Again, I know it sounds dumb to some people, but I remember considering it possible he could be involved. Guess it ended up being a coincidence, but it did give me pause.

I just remembered one more thing...During the David Westerfield case where it was proven he entered a neighbor's home one night and walked through the house to their young daughter's bedroom to kidnap her, it was very hard to believe that someone would take such a risk in doing that. I mean, what if the mom or dad got up to get a drink of water or something and met him in the hallway as he's walking toward their daughter's bedroom, or seeing him while he was carrying her out. Who would take such a chance? It made me wonder about the Ramsey case in retrospect, especially after seeing a 20/20 episode with Lou Smit's intruder theory way back when, which was pretty convincing probably because I hadn't deep dived into the case beforehand.

(It sounds like I follow true crime cases, but I don't. The high-profile cases used to be covered a lot on CNN and Larry King, so I know about some details about them kind of by osmosis.)

*after he WAS brought in for questioning

R581, you aren’t crazy for questioning Carr — when he was a suspect, most by that time either believed parents were frame or that Patsy did it, so all were desperate for answers. As primates, our brains seek out patterns to understand the world. There was definitely more than one coincidence with him, so he had to be considered. But he has indeed been formally ruled out.

R577, I’ve thought of that scenario, we will never know for sure, but the blow was given by someone who stood behind her, was right-handed, and stood slightly to the right, not directly centered. I think at the end of the day, there are sex offenders who are impulsive, and then there are those that are “opportunistic”. This was John. There isn’t as much research on opportunistic offenders, but it is a sub- group for sure.

Stranger-intruder-kidnappers are the rarest of crimes, but they do happen. Let’s say they are 1 - 2%. The other 90% are eldest male in the household. This case has always been easy to solve. The police bungling is why too. They left Linda there because they didn’t want to piss off the rich guy by leaving a pack of scary men, so they left him with someone “softer”, more demure, less of an invasion….they had to leave at least one body, so they picked a chic hoping John wouldn’t bitch to the chief later.

According to Ardnt, Patsy truly believed he was innocent, and I actually think her belief was genuine (denial is powerful). As others have said, look at it would have cost Patsy to face his crime — most would want to off themselves. She HAD to believe in him to keep herself sane.

R571 Why do you say her head was removed? Do you mean her skin was removed? They can do that and then put the skin back, remember the autopsy photo of Marilyn? But her head wasn't removed.

Also, someone should start a real thread for part 2. One hundred posts ago, some fucking wacko who must work for John's PR firm said they started a new thread, but it's a bullshit thread where they try to tell you it was an intruder. We don't usually start part 2 when we're only 400 posts in.

Ask and ye shall receive, my children. Dafuq.

R585, I believe they had to make an impression of her skull, and that would have required some serious handling of her body. 😬. How horrific for the family too, wonder if they had to inform them or not, especially because she was a young child. They likely went through lawyers for everything.

[quote]R179 I think the brother theory is just people trying to find something unique out of what is extremely likely just a run of the mill horrific child abuse case by the parents.

[quote]John found the body, the ransom note listed John’s exact bonus amount, her skull was smashed by someone with considerable strength, she was sexually abused, someone gave her a bowl of pineapple which was her favorite snack, Patsy testifies that she woke up with John already in the shower, etc.

[quote]It was 100% the dad and the mom helped cover it up. If it was the brother, why were they so blasé about him after the murder? They let him talk to the police, they let him go stay at their friends house, etc. wouldn’t they be worried he would say something?

Making my way through this thread and this sounds like very good reasoning. If it's been mentioned I haven't come to it yet, but what is the guess as to why John did it?

People think it was an accident, I think R589. I would love to hear from Beth Holloway, or whatever Natalee Holloway's mom's last name is. I found it so fucking weird she dated John. I wonder what she thinks about it all.

EIther John hit her out of rage, or it was premeditated in that he panicked that his sexual abuse was about to be exposed (the accidental 911 call, the doctor visits - things were stacking up)

If John did it, it's hard to imagine what Patsy went through...coming home on Christmas night to her beautiful house and planning to rest up to travel and enjoy the rest of the holiday season when her daughter is suddenly killed, and...her husband did it, and...she's suddenly in the process of helping to figure out how to cover it up to protect him (and her son and life as she knew it). Just an awful tragedy about the daughter, and then the rest. (In now thinking about it, it does seem that this was an unusually problematic family for quite a while, as others are speculating, because none of this would have been happening within the realm of an ordinary life.)

[quote]Why do you say her head was removed? Do you mean her skin was removed? They can do that and then put the skin back, remember the autopsy photo of Marilyn? But her head wasn't removed.

Okay you just made me do what I was hoping not to do--I Googled the photo of JB's skull. Honestly they should've given a f'ing trigger warning prior to showing that photo in the documentary because I didn't want to see it the first time either and thus quickly looked away. But since y'all got me questioning my own memory now I had to Google it and indeed it wasn't her entire head/skull that they removed. Only the top portion that had been fractured by her killer. My mistake! Although it's still crazy to me that they physically sawed off the top of her skull. Photos wouldn't have sufficed?

R593 Were you not around when this case happened? They had pics in the Enquirer almost every day, it was huge. I don't remember anything being nauseating or too graphic. But then I've been watching scary shit since I was 5 years old.

[quote]But why would Patsy cover for John by writing the ransom letter? And then she stuck to him like glue in the months and years following. Why wouldn't she have resented him for what he'd put her through, both by killing their daughter and by having her raked over the coals by the media?

Because they are like the Macbeths, a couple bound not by love and devotion but by ambition, hubris, and the horror of what they did.

Patsy was an early adopter of the stupid name trend with the portmanteau JonBenét. Not technically a ‘tragedeigh’, but it’s definitely in the same vein. She was a known Francophile and as someone else said had the two neglected Bichon dogs both named Jacques. Anyway, her grasp of French was pretty tenuous because Benét doesn’t make sense. The combination of ét at the end isn’t really a thing and should have been a plain Benet or maybe Benée (with a slight vowel shift) to make it more feminine with the added drama of the accent aigu. The funniest part oh her misstep is the word benêt means fool, idiot or dullard in French. To the French ear, the name sounds closest to ‘John Fool’.

600 is in sight!

I think, I bet, probably, I'm sure, I would never.... The best keyboard detectives all say the same things.

Still dead.

Last look.