OK, so who's leaving the U.S.? Gathering collective wisdom here!

And here's the guide I'm using to gather documents until I get a lawyer.

I obtained dual Italian citizenship by descent. I began the process during the first Trump regime but didn't get the passport until it was over.

Despite this, I have no illusions that I can just pack up and move to the EU. I have too many pets, for starters. Three out of four of them are seniors, so I need to wait a few years and then I'll have a more manageable number. That will also provide time to assess just how catastrophic things get. I also am the only child of an elderly parent, and my job will not allow me to work outside of the US for tax and insurance reasons.

Since I could technically live anywhere in the EU, I'd prefer Ireland, but the expat online forums are full of horror stories of the housing crisis there and high cost of living. Literally hundreds of people apply for every apartment listing, and scams are rampant.

My point is, even with an "in" this shit is hard.

Ireland ain't all its cracked up to be. Very much a parochial good-old-boy network kind of place and Brexit has hit the consumer economy hard because it's largely seen as one market. They also, as a people, have a lot of trauma to recover from and it shows. In many respects, the real recovery didn't start until the late 90's when they finally faced how utterlyfucked it was to have the Catholic church run their social system. They traded one master for another.

I don't expect this to be easy, R2, but the fear that's driving me won't let me stop. And I wouldn't have to sell my property. I could get a property manager and rent my place out. Or I could just leave it empty as long as I have someone to check on it. Plenty of snowbirds do.

The other thing I'm considering is to get the Pensionado visa and continue to live here in Deplorable Haven. You only have to go back to Panama (I've read two different things) every year (or two) to get your passport stamped to keep the visa. What that means is that I can leave when I feel the time is right -- or wrong, as the case may be.

Thanks for your response.

R3 I get that, but honestly I don't think any country in Europe is all it's cracked up to be anymore. And I don't want to have to learn Norwegian.

Once they implement the "must be identified as Christian on U.S. passport" you ain't going anywhere.

Denmark's on an upswing. Thanks, Ozempic!

Just move to a blue state.

Honestly, I cracked jokes about this very topic at the beginning of the year. When Kamala took over the nomination, I relaxed a little. But now? My husband and I have started to explore countries we’d possibly like to move to.

My preferred one, oddly enough, would be Argentina. But their monetary issues are a big con. Spain? Si, possibly. New Zealand is too damn far, but the most attractive option.

Until we decide on pulling THAT trigger, I am applying for a gun license, which in Massachusetts will be almost as challenging as securing a foreign visa. I’m not joining the NRA though, and will hope they notice an uptick in people like me, liberals, arming themselves.

I also have toyed with the notion of moving to a “Stand Your Ground” state and start shooting MAGAts in the face the minute they act up in my presence.

"MEXICO CITY (AP) — Mexico’s two main drug cartels have long taken their deadly rivalry with them as they expand into distant markets from Asia to Australia to Africa, but never before with such intensive street gang violence and a presidential declaration of a state of “internal armed conflict” this week in Ecuador.

Gunmen from an Ecuadorian gang believed aligned with Mexico’s Jalisco New Generation cartel took over a television station during a live broadcast and brandished explosives. Meanwhile, a rival gang believed to be backed by Mexico’s Sinaloa cartel called for peace — in a statement apparently issued from Mexico City.

Why are Mexican cartels in Ecuador? It’s the location. And the bananas.

Ecuador is attractive as a shipping point for drugs because the South American country is sandwiched between two top cocaine producers, Colombia and Peru. Ecuador has been ravished by poverty, the COVID-19 pandemic, a weak law enforcement system and corruption, but it also has a big active, legitimate foreign trade."

Yeah, sounds like a lovely place, OP.

i'm looking into it

New Zealand recently passed laws making it very difficult for foreigners to own properly.

Fuck the "just move to a blue state noise". They've already rattled their sabres about federal power with the coming immigration purge.

r10 Do you watch the news in the U.S.?

Even most blue states are overrun with MAGATs who'll turn you in at God Emperor's request. NY for example.

I left in 2004 (Netherlands), came back in 2008, left for work elsewhere in Europe in 2011 but kept my home in the US, came back to NL on an entrepreneurs visa in 2015 and finally gave up my US home in 2017. It takes organization, patience, and flexibility to see it through. And you must be committed to culturally assimilating wherever you go. I've learned the language, become a citizen, and while I still have an American passport until I figure out whether SS lives or dies, this is my country and my home.

Yes, I watch the news in the US. You have no idea what you're really getting into with moving to some of these countries in Sputh America, but enjoy the move.

I'd at least make a real attempt at moving to Europe if I were terrified. But I'm not.

The challenge today is that so many other countries are also moving toward authoritarian governments.

indeed, what most of you don't realize, never having immigrated, the US is always out there. the country shapes and effects policy in nearly every single country on earth. I was a twenty-something and I lived in europe. knew nothing of politics nor cared, yet I was always vaguely at the least aware of US politics

I’m looking at locum jobs in Australia and New Zealand. It would be a 6-12 month assignment. But I’d plan to extend if they let me. I’m in this in-between space where it’s not quite time to renew my passport and I’d worry if I start now, I won’t have it for when I need it early in 2025.

Panama.

I would but I have broke ass parents who can barely take care of themselves.

I'm staying right here. No one will run me out of my home. This too shall pass and we will weather the storm together. But if I were here illegally, I would be trying my damndest to figure out where to go. It is heartbreaking to think about families being separated during the mass deportation. I hope charitable organizations can get together and assist them in getting out before it's too late. I feel like we are in a Margaret Atwood novel.

I caution anyone seriously considering this to commit to keeping a place in the United States for as long as possible, while living abroad in their country of choice for a minimum of 1 year.

Things are changing rapidly (and not necessarily for the best), in many countries, especially in what may seem as more affordable countries, such as those in Central and South America. Same goes for Canada, and extra special caution when considering Europe, due to what will now be the constant moving parts and even more chaos when assessing risks due to Russia and Ukraine.

At this particular juncture, moving abroad may be worse than staying put.

Be smart. Take a beat and sit back and observe before making what could be a VERY costly mistake.

I understand, R18. When I was stationed in (West) Germany, I knew that the Germans hated U.S. troops and hated our being there. In a way, I was lucky -- I'm of German descent (PA Dutch), and never knew how German I looked until I lived there. Believe me, Heidi Klum is the exception.

But I spoke no German (four years of Spanish in high school), and when the Germans would speak to me in German, they were always shocked to find I didn't speak the language.

While there were many things I loved and still miss about Germany (buried power lines, anyone?), it was still quite the culture shock when I got there. But at least I can still communicate in Spanish (although not well) and I spent six years riding with a Latino motorcycle organization. I love Latino culture (except for the machismo, which I can live without) because the people are generally warm and fuzzy, in contrast to the cold-as-ice PA Germans. And when I moved to Tampa Bay, I had to get used to [bold]their[/bold] mañana culture, because believe me, they have one, since Tampa was originally settled by Spaniards, and later, Cubans.

And BTW, R20, I really DGAF about that, unless they'll clock me as a lesbian on sight and shoot me dead. I have no sex drive (since menopause) and I've been deliberately celibate over 15 years. I could never have moved out here to Deplorable Haven if I were still looking to get laid/meet lesbians. Just sayin'.

I'm making lists and looking at options/requirements for emigration. We are near retirement age and looking at a place where we can land. We will be taking a long scouting trip to Belgium and Portugal this winter to look at options. Lower down the list is Spain and Croatia if those first two don't feel right.

Downsizing has begun regardless. We have too much "stuff" and do not need as much as we shift towards retirement wherever. For example, neither of us has worked in an office environment for over a decade yet we have a full closet of suits/jackets, dress shirts, and ties. We are also using this time to do some long-needed repairs and upgrades to our home with the prospect of putting it on the market in the spring.

I'd put our chances of spending Christmas 2025 in Europe at 60:40.

Take a look at Maastricht if you're looking at Belgium and can get into NL.

That's good advice, R23. That's why my current plan is to get the Panama Pensionado visa to have in my back pocket, so to speak, and then come back here to live. Overall, it'll probably cost me 5K, but I can spare it, and then I'll be here to watch how things unfold and have an escape tunnel if/when I should need one.

Basically, look at what Russia wants and what Trump wants, along with climate change, if you want to be safe. I wouldn't head to any former Warsaw Pact country, Finland, or the Baltics for sure. UK should be fine, despite Brexit, and there's no way Farage will make it in without cheating. Ireland is small and largely neutral, so it will be forgotten. Also, even the right wing in Europe isn't much into persecuting the gays, so there's that. I have a lot of faith in Ursula Van Der Leyen, especially after she avoided a super far-right swing in the EU parliament, but we'll see.

But even so, culture shock is a real thing even in English-speaking countries and r23's advice is sound, even if I did block them for being a cunt at some point.

My throuple friends are moving to Spain (his BF wants Valencia, but he wants San Sebastian) - he has a dual citizenship and a sister in Valencia, also speaks rudimentary Spanish (albeit with a Mexican accent due to living in L.A.). His husband and BF don't speak Spanish, so that why the BF is campaigning for a large, younger city. I wouldn't mind moving with them, but I was eyeing France, as I've been learning the language. He is also the messiest gay man alive, which I don't know if I can deal- his BF does all the cleaning and is resentful all the time about it.

Spain just agreed to end their Golden Visa program which allowed those who invested >500,000€ in a house the right to Spanish residency. It is due to end in 2025 but with allowance for applications receives before then.

Portugal's government decided the same, a couple of years ago, but the law hasn't been put into force.

Greece, on the other hand, has moved to extend a similar program though the entry price has been raised.

Overall the EU wants to curb the sale of citizenship and residency privileges for €.

I’ve done a load of travel and what always struck me profoundly was visiting places where society collapsed often combined with genocide (sites in Germany, Poland, Bosnia, Cambodia, Rwanda, etc). The handwriting was on the wall in each example. Plenty of people saw it and left early. Those who didn’t were in denial or stayed often because they could leave their personal ties and personal assets. They died for their stuff. I’ve always told myself I would leave with just the shirt on my back.

Anyway, I haven’t lived in the US for almost 30 years now. We were planning on retiring there, but that’s totally out of the question now. Honestly, even if Harris has won, it would only be a short reprieve. This MAGA wave has been coming for a long time starting with the Southern Strategy decades ago. It’s not suddenly going to vanish, and that’s another lessonfrom history. For example, many Germans supported the cult even as the country fell to ruins. It took total destruction to break the spell.

Have a plan whether you wan to leave or stay.

Could not leave

Completely agree, r31. They were never going to let this go until they settled the scores they wanted to settle (i.e. dismantling whatever's left of LBJ's "Great Society" and Jimmy Carter's Department of Ed) and got the right-wing state they wanted.

Op you should move to Haiti.Toull need to go by boat though.

Nobody left last time. Nobody's leaving this time.

Perhaps in your anecdotal world, but I'm living proof people left.

Try russia

Oh, yeah, i know several people who were working abroad ten years ago and then decided to officially “move”

It's long and rambling but this was interesting, SL.

[quote]Ireland ain't all its cracked up to be.

Who said anything about Ireland, R3? I have Irish citizenship by descent, never having lived on Ireland, and with no plans to do. But that passport allows me to live and work and have significant rights anywhere in the EU (and the UK as well.)

Obtaining Irish citizenship doesn't limit your options of living only in Ireland or nothing. It's a pretty generous program.

R2 did, R40. And I'd agree that an Irish passport is one of the best passports to have right now because it gets you into both the UK and EU.

[quote] I’m looking at locum jobs in Australia and New Zealand.

As opposed to hicum gloryholes?

So he did, R41. My apologies to R3.

Puerto Vallarta is what I am thinking. You can be a temporary resident for up to four years, relatively easy to get and renew. It lets you retain your US citizenship while living in Mexico, the Cost of living is much cheaper, and medical expenses are much more affordable. Only medium risk for earthquakes. Rare for earthquakes. Most places in PV speak English as well as Spanish and are welcoming to US citizens.

Eva Longoria has officially left for Mexico and Spain. Fine for her if it’s true but I better never see her near any Democratic candidate or convention ever again.

OP/R24, I'm also a PA Dutch senior les!

I have found myself in such a panic over the past week, just desperately wanting to get out, but recognizing that it's likely not feasible right now (I have a thousand-year-old diabetic pug that I would never leave, and my wife would never leave her 91-year-old parents). It would make me feel better though, to start gathering things now, just in case.

[quote] thousand-year-old diabetic pug

Aww, I want to see a pic.

I can answer pet transfer questions!

My family has a house in Eleuthera, Bahamas and I’m building a house for myself on the property. It’s a very beautiful and quiet island and removed from politics - lots of wealthy expats live there or have vacation homes there (like Lenny Kravitz). Life there is very simple.

Leave? And miss the big show?

Argentina. Beautiful, temperate, and dirt cheap. Just don’t do a Liam Payne. My Argie friends tell me the medical care is good but they can’t bring the dead back to life. And did I mention it’s dirt cheap to live there? The Argentine COL is 57% less expensive than in the US. Rent in BA is in the $600/mo range for a 2 bedroom apartment and life in the provinces is a lot cheaper than in the capitol city.

Yes, the country’s a mess. It’s been a mess for a long time and they somehow manage. Residency visas are cheap and easier to get than in many countries and require a small investment, not half-a-million dollars.

Thank you r51

These threads are hilarious. "omg someone I don't like won an election so I simply MUST move to the other side of the world! I saw this country in a film and knew immediately I had to move there. I don't speak a word of the language but I went there once for a week so how hard can it be?"

Thanks for letting us know you're a cunt, r53!

Senior Lesbian -- have you considered moving to a blue state for a while? MAGA has made a strong push to let individual US states do what they want, e.g. abortion banning, and this is a large part of what's gone so shitty with Florida as it is MAGA-ruled.

Try New Mexico for a year or two if you need sun, and try further north if you can handle some winter. It's not so bad up here.

Leaving the US altogether is an extreme move and it's wiser to do that with a lot more intention, and a lot less reactivity to current events.

R54 Well done on addressing each of my points in such a well-educated manner.

I’m considering Belize.

Nice weather, not too expensive and you can retire there with a Qualified Retirement Program.

Blue states won’t be safe from attacks by that traitor or his cunts.

I guess I could go to Israel.

Talk about “out of the frying pan and into the fire.”

R57, I totally agree and it’s why I’m trying to warm people. Our government is leading us like lambs to the slaughter. They will not be able to stop them. And I would say that 90% of our entire country is still in denial. Fckn Joe and Kamala are in denial. People find ways to deny reality, especially when it’s scary.

I've been a nomad for close to 4 years. Have tried several different countries out (and lived long-term in Germany back in the 2000s). I do love Argentina but right now, rents are still cheap, but prices for food and other goods are quite high - the blue dollar ain't what it used to be. Milei is another crazy narcissistic buffoon, Trump 2.0. I would probably wait awhile before settling there.

Chile is beautiful, stable (by LatAm standards), and developed, if more boring than Argentina. It's not uber cheap, but better COL than most of the US. You have everything there - beaches, desert, mountains, Patagonia. Santiago doesn't have as much culture as Buenos Aires, but it's not a wasteland.

France can be surprisingly affordable if you stay away from the hotspots. It has its share of social issues, but what country doesn't. I think the pluses far outweigh the negatives.

I have tried Mexico and between the food poisoning, incessant noise from street vendors/roosters/the gas delivery guy, not being able to flush toilet paper, etc. I just couldn't see myself there long term.

[QUOTE] I obtained dual Italian citizenship by descent. I began the process during the first Trump regime but didn't get the passport until it was over. Despite this, I have no illusions that I can just pack up and move to the EU. I have too many pets, for starters. Three out of four of them are seniors, so I need to wait a few years and then I'll have a more manageable number.

This type of post is making me think the whole threat is exaggerated. If it were that dangerous here you would leave immediately, not wait 3 or 4 years because pets. 🙄

[QUOTE] I was planning on Panama, but now I'm having some doubts, because the cost of things there is going up. I still haven't ruled it out, but now I'm thinking about Ecuador, even though there are problems with their government v. drug gangs. Hmmm.

Pick the country that is more stable, even if it is more expensive to live there. That sounds like Panama in this scenario. Ecuador might be cheaper and it might be a nice place now but if crime and lawlessness gets way out of control you might be forced with a decision to move back to the US, or go to yet another country in 5 or 10 years. I'm not trying to put Ecuador down and maybe I'm wrong about the country, but you'd be better off just staying in the US than moving to a place that seems iffy in any way.

R53

[quote]somebody I didn't like won the election

Ah, kid, you haven't been paying attention.

I have good friends that moved to Ecuador. The immigration red tape in a sluggish and inefficient bureaucracy has taken forever.. but they love it there. Living at the base of a volcano at 9,000ft, ever day of the year about 75 degrees. Cheap but with infrastructure and medical care. Stay away from Cuenca, which is ex-pat intensive. No need ever to go to Guayaquil, the country's largest city, which is, in fact, full of violence and crime. The rest of the country is calm and friendly.

Current politics has improved (even with the gang violence). The Amazon is hours away, the Andes are spectacular, and you can take ayahuasca and find true peace.

(e.g. True Peace is inside... which you take with you no matter where you go).

My gawd, r63, come sit on my LAP!!!! Tell me MORE!!!

You got the responses you deserved, r53!

[quote] Eva Longoria has officially left for Mexico and Spain. Fine for her if it’s true but I better never see her near any Democratic candidate or convention ever again.

Why not?

My husband is from Brazil, but we live in Brooklyn. Keeping our apartment states, but would move to Rio if anything happens.

My closest friend and her husband are moving to New Zealand -the paperwork is already in process. They have the money to go anywhere they want, and they've been thinking about NZ for years. My only options are Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Mexico, Costa Rica, and Panama. I speak fluent Spanish, so only Portugal is truly off the list. My problem is I have very few relatives, but none of them could afford to move (even if they wanted to. Things will have to get pretty dire before I would move away and leave them to suffer. I live in a solidly blue state, so I think I have time to sort things out. I hope...

It's an adjustment and it's far away but I am surprised no one on this thread has mentioned Asia as an option? Generally speaking it's a thousand times safer than living in Latin America, in terms of crime.

Places like EU countries and Canada are nice options but I doubt it's easy to gain residency in those places, and they tend to be expensive to live in.

R69, can you be more specific please. “Asia” doesn’t help anyone.

When Trump causes a nuclear war, I think Asia will not be all that livable...

Well I was comparing Asia broadly to Latin America R70. Obviously there are some places there -- parts of Cambodia and the Phillipines, for example -- that have a crime issue. But Latin America is the most violent continent in the world. It has a worse crime rate than Africa. And you couldn't pay me enough to live on any Caribbean Island. Talk about going from frying pan to fire.

I've moved countries twice in my adult lifetime. One of those countries was to the Netherlands. If you're thinking of moving to a non-English speaking country, the best piece of advice I can give is to learn the language to at least a basic conversational level - no mater if it's bad. At least try. I can't stress that enough. Otherwise you can't take part in society and you can't understand what's going on around you and it is very isolating and confusing and will result in your move becoming a failure. Once you have a basic level of understanding of the language you will be able to build on it and they will help you. As soon as I arrived I enrolled in a Dutch for foreigners course and that was very helpful.

If I was still single I'd offer marriage but even marriage isn't a guarantee of Canadian citizenship. And Canada is shifting right.

Friends are moving to San Miguel de Allende, Mexico.

Very gay friendly, apparently.

I have a friend who keeps telling me I should move to Thailand.

Her husband is from Thailand and he still has family there (he just returned from visiting a month ago).

She keeps saying I would have a place to stay until I got acculturated, but idk. Too close to China and their world domination ambitions.

What R74 said. You must learn the language. Many western men will move to a developing country and marry a local woman and have her do all the daily business, interactions. These men never really learn the language, and often they end up hanging out only with other expats from America (or wherever they came from). It's a very limiting existence.

R75 I’ve heard that’s a nice area. Still sounds scary but then again so can the US be.

[quote] Nobody left last time. Nobody's leaving this time.

Anyone who thinks "this time" is the same as "last time" is a fool in deep denial.

If this goes like others around the world, the first step is to liquidate your assets. You will be leaving without most of your stuff. If you leave it in someone else's care, it will be confiscated and given to a worthy MAGA. That's what happened to the property of German Jews and Cuban exiles.

Next, find a way to get your money out of the US and out of the dollar. I don't have any advice here because in other countries, people convert their assets to dollars. According to the plans the Trump administration is announcing, the dollar will be worthless.

Just remember, before they shut down the outflow of people, they enact capital controls. American exiles flooding the other 1st world nations is destabilizing.

And thank Joe Biden for the mess he caused. There is no need to blame Garland, Chris Wray, or Jake Sullivan. Biden did this because 1) he's personally not in favor of abortion, and 2) he had a vague idea of implementing social programs. He never bothered with Trump or Putin or any of the room's loud, threatening elephants.

Joe Biden means well, feebly.

R80, I agree with everything except Garland and Wray. I blame ALL these mother fuckers. Do your fucking jobs!!!!!!!!!

Yes. Get your gay money in secure off-shore accounts.

But SS recipients are paid in the dollar. My little pension comes in dollars. How do I convert that currency to something else? Should I do that with my meager savings as well?

Americans: I understand and sympathize with your desire to flee but please stay there. Fight Mango Mussolini and the Dread instead.

We're full, eh?

How does one find these offshore accounts?

If you want to be close to home then Mexico, Panama or Costa Rica. Spanish is easy to learn and many areas in Mexico are perfectly safe, check out Queretaro for one example. Unfortunately Visa requirements for Mexico have tightened. Formerly you could count on an automatic 180 days on your tourist visa, which meant you could pop over the border for a day and come back for another half a year. (That's what I had planned to do even before Trump.) But now it's a dice roll, tourists are only getting 90 days sometimes. For other visas the monthly income requirement was hiked to 4500k for temporary visas and 7500k for a permanent residency.

I lived in Thailand for a year. It is a magical place for me, and gay friendly, which is not to say it isn't authoritarian. But I will never learn a tonal language, and as posters have said, that forces you to make friends with other expats, which can feel claustrophobic. And it's a looong flight to the U.S. Visa requirements are also stringent.

I think everyone should live outside the U.S. for awhile, and if Trump is the last straw in your mind, go for it. No matter how it turns out, you won't regret it. At the very least it will distract you. When I lived in Thailand and then China it was during the second Bush term. When 'my fellow americans' elected the war criminal for a SECOND time I was appalled and it was a relief to be living in places that allowed me to forget the death and destruction my county was unleashing on the world.

Yeah, how do we convert our 401ks to non dollars or move it offshore?

[QUOTE] But I will never learn a tonal language, and as posters have said, that forces you to make friends with other expats, which can feel claustrophobic.

Tonal, true, but it has very basic grammar rules compared to a lot of other languages. I think a language like German would probably be harder to for an English speaker to learn than Thai.

R88 Lol. It's the reverse. English and German are related. Simple grammar or not, clearly you have never lived in Thailand.

[quote] These threads are hilarious. "omg someone I don't like won an election so I simply MUST move to the other side of the world!

NO, it's not just that he won the election. It is that he is back in a position of power, surrounded by a bunch of sycophants who all share the same desire: to tear down our government as we know it. They probably all think that they'll have a chance to take over the reins of consolidated power once the Orange Turd grabs his last pussy, and they'd be wrong. I am NOT hopeful that we will have a free and fair election in 2026, much less 2028; most likely it will an illusion of one in 2026 and then a coronation in 2028. And after that? NADA. America as I have known it, celebrated it, and proudly been blessed by it is very likely gone.

Given that, it is also very true what some said upthread, that the USA and its effects are spread around the world. I was just in Turks&Caicos and even there, a simple ferryboat captain told me "When America sneezes, the Caribbean, the whole world, gets a cold!" So, perhaps escaping to a different country is wasted effort, but it's probably one worth looking into. As I also said upthread, I've signed up for the classes I need to pursue by gun license in my very blue state. It might just be fun to go out shooting MAGAts in their faces in my new stand-your-ground state.

so no, R53, you ARE a cunt. YOU ARE! And as far as you go R80, FUCK YOU TOO! Nice try with the first couple paragraphs, but your last was a clumsy, stupid, attempt at both-sides'ing this. Next time don't attempt to multi-task... you'll write better posts and Vlad will enjoy your cocksucking skills even better.

[quote] I totally agree and it’s why I’m trying to warm people.

Finally, someone doing something useful as winter approaches.

These threads are as bad as that idiotic couple from San Francisco who moved to France and expected it to be paradise.

You can all fantasise about moving but the truth is, you ain't going anywhere.

Sorry even contemplating Ecuador as a safe haven is nuts. I know some people need a cheap place but Ecuador is not it.

Around 200,000 Ecuadorians have arrived in the US in the last 4 years to escape how awful it is there. There are several prison riots each year in which sometimes 50+ are killed. There is a drug war raging across the entire country. The current president is a social conservative with authoritarian tendencies who mostly likely will be a South American ally of Trump.

R86 there was just a mass shooting in Queretaro last week in which ten people were kiled. It is considered a "safe" city for Mexico but that shooting and other recent violence there is all cartel related.

[QUOTE] Lol. It's the reverse. English and German are related. Simple grammar or not, clearly you have never lived in Thailand.

And clearly you know nothing about languages. German is notoriously difficult.

Is R89 the same poster who lived there for a year and never bothered to learn any Thai?

R94 I hadn't heard of this, it happened in October. That's fucked.

Querétaro has been largely spared the high levels of violence that plague some parts of Mexico, but there have been a number of armed attacks in the state since Oct. 1. Among more than 20 homicide victims since the beginning of last month were three people shot dead at a nightclub in Querétaro city last Thursday.

Governor Kuri described the attack on Saturday night as “unprecedented for our beautiful state of Querétaro.”

I know Trump is bad but Mexico is corrupt and full of violent crime. Is living there really a step up from staying in the US?

R95 R96 Since you're the same poster my reply is singular. German is not notoriously difficult, unlike you. I don't know what poster you are referring to but I had lessons in Thai. I found tonal languages difficult. Why you find this so enraging and pontificate about languages, obviously knowing nothing, is a mystery.

Panama? Great idea! Move to an even bigger shithole.

When I first thought about leaving the country back in 2020 (if Trump had won), I went to Cancun right after I voted early. If he won, I was going to take a CELTA course in Playa del Carmen and just stay in Mexico and teach.

Imagine my surprise when I found out the minimum income I would need to have to do that this time. Can't do it.

Oh well.

And if you have lived in/visited Panama, please tell me what it's like. Thanks!

^^ For R100.

I'll be resisting in place.

r103 Stay strong, brother! 👍✊

I have always felt like I didn't belong in the US. I have lived in several countries abroad, have visited over 50 countries, and I know that life is better elsewhere in countries where you can't own a semiautomatic rifle, where you can go to the doctor even if you're poor, where they believe in climate change (you know those lawn signs "In this house we believe..." -- There are nations where most people actually believe that stuff and they and their governments act accordingly). No place is perfect, but I've been around enough to not have an "Emily in Paris" view of the world -- really it's better elsewhere in nations where the majority of people do care for each other and are not xenophobic, violent, myopic idiots.

We saw no bright future for gays in the US, and frankly, no bright future for the US in general. So two years ago, we sold our apartment, packed up and moved to Spain. Best decision we ever made. A lovely country with lovely people that, thus far at least, has avoided the right wing takeovers elsewhere. (Yes, I know there was just flooding and death in Valencia due to right wing incompetence -- nothing is perfect.) Great weather (recent storms noted), wonderful food, lovely people, state of the art health care, great public transit, cheap flights to anywhere you'd want to go in Europe.. Third country to ratify gay marriage (2003), and no threats to our rights (and the straights seem to love us here). The government is eliminating the Golden Visa that allows you to invest a lot and get residency (although if you apply today, still time...), but you can apply for a "non lucrative" visa as long as you don't plan to work in the country..

In some of the major cities, you might face backlash and resentment for driving up housing prices. So think outside the Barcelona box.

We have friends who have also moved elsewhere in Spain, as well as to Portugal, Italy, and France. No one regrets it. It takes some imagination and some courage and some effort, but the message is: You don't have to spend the rest of your lives in that dying shithole country where things are going to keep getting worse before, if ever, they get any better.

I wish I could go to Spain, R105. They too raised the $ amount necessary to retire there -- 2400 euros/mo. -- and I don't have quite enough. Close, but still not enough.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

If the good ones are all leaving because they can, who is left to fix the mess?

That sounds right, Senior Lesbian. About $2800 US/month.

[quote]Mexico is corrupt and full of violent crime. Is living there really a step up from staying in the US?

As others have pointed out, different states/cities in Mexico have different levels of safety. Of course, you wouldn't want to move to an area where the cartels rule, but there are LOTS of places in Mexico where you can live safely and comfortably, especially if you speak a little Spanish. Upthread, some have mentioned San Miguel de Allende as being a safe city, with a comfortable climate and lots of expats. Others have mentioned Puerto Vallarta, which is exceptionally gay-friendly and home to lots of retired gay men (and lots of bears). And if you have lived in any major American city, and have city-smarts, you would love Mexico City. Despite its reputation, it's quite safe if you're careful. Ubers are super cheap, and there's lots of culture and history. The Arts thrive there, and wonderful restaurants covering every cost range are plentiful there, too. My favorite is the state of Oaxaca. Sexy men, a bit off the beaten path, cheap rents, and friendly people overall. In general, Mexicans have a live-and-let-live attitude.

While Mexico is my Plan B, I'm certainly not leaving my wonderful home in my very blue state any time soon. We survived Trump once before, and I suspect we can do it again.

R74: China is unlikely to take over Thailand.

R88: German is much easier than Thai. I've taken both. Apart from the tones, there are sounds in Thai that don't exist in any Western language.

r88, Try even reading the Thai language, At least English has some base words that are German, and you can get around reading the words.

R105 I agree with a lot of what you posted.

I have no unrealistic fantasies or ideals about anywhere I might move. Every place has its bad and good. And my current town is a tourist hotspot, so I know that spending a week somewhere is quite different than living there.

But it seems that for all the political upheaval that exists elsewhere, like Canada and Western Europe, many of those places have already settled the same sex marriage issue. Many of those places have at least reasonably affordable healthcare. (I have 6 to 8 month waits where I am, too.....nothing any better here.)

R23 You are so right and what a colleague of mine said to me today over lunch. We are so busy learning minute by minute shit hitting the fan in our own country that we aren't hearing as much as we should about the world around us. Things are not great anywhere.

Agreed, R198. The 2024 minimum passive income for Non-Lucrative Visas is €2400 per month or about $2530 by today's exchange rate.

That should be "Agreed, R108..."

Glad I got out when I did.

R92 Surely you mean that idiotic conservative family that moved to Russia to "get away from the gay" and was horrified with life there.

Re: Ecuador comments above. I get regular reports from good friends who moved there. There are rolling power outages (something new, not happened much in the past). The new President is a bit of a "tech bro" douche, but he won't align with Trump. And there will be a new president in a minute or two. Life outside the big cities (Quito, Guayaquil) is safe, and people are warm and friendly. And you can live like an upper middle class expat on the pension (US$) of a clerk. If you are ok with the colonizer raising prices for the natural-born citizens etc.

My husband, for the first time ever, has agreed to think about another country. But it would be Canada. (We might have had "grandparent" rights years ago, but they, and all countries, have tightened up immigration laws. Duh, the modern world.) If I were not married I'd be in San Sebastian Spain immediately... because I love it, not only because we're in the first act of a dystopian nightmare.

That said.... it (the Reich) is just starting to play out. It's actually amusing so far... and some things good could happen because of it (I am a positive thinker). While it might be a good idea to investigate options, I think we are very, very far from needing to leave. I'd give it to next June... we'll know by then.

Which country has the wildest gays, anyway?

I'm not going anywhere. This is my home.

Home is where the heart is. So bloom where you're planted, BITCH.

My brother’s friend lives in Uruguay and really likes it.

I wasn't a fan of Ecuador. Granted, I didn't go everywhere, but I tried Cuenca (boring) and Quito (polluted, ugly, gray, dangerous at night). Ecuador is less developed and more conservative than the southern cone countries (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay). Those countries might be more expensive, but if you are living somewhere long term, comfort is paramount. Don't commit to a country unless you have been there and spent some time there first.

Nope. I'm staying right here. I am officially in my "I wish a bitch would" era.

Anyone wanting to shift assets should see a financial adviser during the planning phase. It's not like you're wanting to shift them for tax reasons, you just want them to travel with you, so it's a legit question. You should ask the tax implications of moving your assets offshore while you're at it. (You may find you pay more, at least initially, and in your new country taxes may well be higher because health care and social services may be a lot better.) A financial adviser may also be able to help you avoid asset losses in the US. For example, you might want to shift shares and managed funds, or even government bonds, away from the US and towards Europe or Australasia, or shift cash into gold. You should ask the tax implications of moving your assets offshore while you're at it.

Also, be warned that in a lot of places it costs quite a few thousands, over a period of years, to gain permanent residency and come off the visa system.

R119 German gays are into some pretty kinky stuff. Spaniards throw a good fuck. Italians run back to Mamma as soon as they blow a load.

R126 has never actually met a European

Gay men (bottoms) after sex:

Russians: "I hate you!"

French: "oh baby, encore!"

Italian: "400 lira please"

Spanish: "how does my hair look?"

English: "are you quite finished?"

American: (hitting your shoulder) "so, you feel better?"

Your fat old asses aren't going anywhere. ♿.

[QUOTE] German is much easier than Thai. I've taken both. Apart from the tones, there are sounds in Thai that don't exist in any Western language.

You've "taken" both? OK I'll play. Does that mean trying to learn Thai in the US, without speaking with Thai people on a daily basis? 🙄 I can assure you that many Western expats can and do learn to speak at least some Thai -- enough to get around and do basic things -- and some become completely fluent. The difference between them and you is they are not lazy and they are willing to put in some effort.

I've decided to relocate to Germany, to make my escape. It's super liberal there, and I just learned -- thanks to DLers -- that the German language is a piece of cake to learn. What more could anyone ask for?

I hope no one writes off Thailand as a place to live because of some of the comments on this thread. What a bunch of dreck.

"tonal language too hard to learn" -- well maybe it is for stupid people.

"authoritarian" -- well sure you if you decide to insult their monarchy, acting like a complete boor inside a Temple, or fail to stand for the national anthem at the beginning of a theater movie. But are you planning to do any of those things?

and my favorite, don't move there because it is too close to China. 🙄

R131 Kid, just do some simple searches on AfD. The second season of the German Nazi state.

R132 You just keep digging that hole don't you? First, not one poster said Thai was 'impossible' to learn. But desperate losers like you must resort to straw man arguments.

R134 the dizzy queen who moved to Thailand for one year and couldn't learn any Thai claimed that a tonal language is too hard to learn.

R135 Get a bigger shovel dear. You'll need it after your howler that Thai is easier than German.

[QUOTE] Get a bigger shovel dear. You'll need it after your howler that Thai is easier than German.

My I ask what your source of expertise is on this issue? Mine is actually living and working in the country from 1995-'97.

[quote] My I ask what your source of expertise is on this issue?

Read the fucking language ranking, moron.

[QUOTE] Read the fucking language ranking, moron.

Why can't you answer my question?

Why can't you admit defeat?

[QUOTE] Why can't you admit defeat?

Did you ever live there?

No one has brought up a very important issue: food. Most Americans don't realize just how much the rest of the world lives on seasonal foods that are locally grown. You can't have strawberries year-round in most countries. Nor will you have access to the wide variety of fresh produce that you're used to in the US. And meat prices will shock you! Even restaurant choices can be limited outside major cities. As a Californian I'm used to Mexican food as a staple -and you just won't find it anywhere else (Mexico excepted -but even then it's not the "Mexican food" you're used to). If you're going to live somewhere, you'd better like the local cuisine. A lot. Which is why I could never live in Germany again.

R142 most of these people posting won't actually leave the country, and half of the ones who do will be back within 3 years tops because they miss American creature comforts.

[quote] Did you ever live there?

I'll tell you all about it but first prove you read the rankings and tell me how Thai ranks with German in difficulty.

[QUOTE] I'll tell you all about it but first prove you read the rankings and tell me how Thai ranks with German in difficulty.

I don't give a fuck about that link you just posted.

Within 3 years. That's because I'm retiring and we bought land in Thailand and will settle there. Away from all the chaos and hate.

It would be fantastic if people like R138/R144 exited the US and never came back here. But I fear that people like that poster don't have what it takes to actually go the distance. The next four years are going to be a long hard slog indeed for bitter twits like them.

[quote] I don't give a fuck about that link you just posted.

Nor, apparently, do you give a fuck about eating shit either.

[QUOTE] I'll tell you all about it but first prove you read the rankings and tell me how Thai ranks with German in difficulty.

OK so you've never lived there, probably never even been there at all.

[QUOTE] Nor, apparently, do you give a fuck about eating shit either.

A hothead like you should not go to Thailand. Your foul words and displays of anger will get your nowhere fast in that country.

The AfD is very scary, much like MAGAts here.

But the German government has a few guardrails in place that the US has decided to ignore completely.

[QUOTE] The AfD is very scary, much like MAGAts here.

True, but the German language is so simple to learn, it's worth the risk.

I don’t care for Danish food. My dad would make pickled herring and cooked red cabbage a lot. Our house would stink. I had eel for the first time when visiting and as a kid I remember being really disappointed with their ice cream as it was whipped and fluffy and tasted off. However, I didn’t mind potato chips being served with many meals.

Category I: 23-24 weeks (575-600 hours) Languages closely related to English

Afrikaans Danish Dutch French Italian Norwegian Portuguese Romanian Spanish Swedish

Category II: 30 weeks (750 hours) Languages similar to English

German

Category III: 36 weeks (900 hours) Languages with linguistic and/or cultural differences from English

Indonesian Malaysian Swahili Category IV: 44 weeks (1100 hours) Languages with significant linguistic and/or cultural differences from English Albanian Amharic Armenian Azerbaijani Bengali Bosnian Bulgarian Burmese Croatian Czech *Estonian *Finnish *Georgian Greek Hebrew Hindi *Hungarian Icelandic Khmer Lao Latvian Lithuanian Macedonian *Mongolian Nepali Pashto Persian (Dari, Farsi, Tajik) Polish Russian Serbian Sinhala Slovak Slovenian Tagalog *Thai Turkish Ukrainian Urdu Uzbek *Vietnamese Xhosa Zulu

Category V: 88 weeks (2200 hours) Languages which are exceptionally difficult for native English speakers

Arabic Cantonese (Chinese) Mandarin (Chinese) *Japanese Korean

* Languages preceded by asterisks are usually more difficult for native English speakers to learn than other languages in the same category.

R154 Where is that from? I want to find a good place to learn German.

Get a fucking room, you two,

I'm gonna buy a winery. Just like in that movie!

I saw one interesting post in an expat forum. For people who are leaving, some are thinking to declare their residency in a US state with no state income tax. South Dakota is one of these states, and your official "residence" could be a PO Box. You could get a SD drivers license, and also register to vote there by spending just one night in the state.

What if all of the Americans unhappy with the present political situation changed their residence to South Dakota, and these tens of thousands of Blue-leaning expats all voted Blue there. Trump won SD by only 130,000 votes.

It's fun to dream.....

But being a progressive don't you want to pay your fair share? Plus, 130,000 votes in SD is like six million in CA. He got 65% of the vote in SD.

I don't think many of these people on this thread are actually going to move anywhere. It's just talk. A lot of the posts don't make sense. The person who said she had an EU visa but was waiting three or four years to move there because she has senior cats. That makes no sense because even though she may have an EU passport, the cost of housing may skyrocket in Italy or wherever she is going by the time she is ready to move there, because hordes of Americans will be rushing into if things get as bad in the US as she claims they will. The time to buy property there would be now if one wanted to execute such a plan.

Plus anyone who claims German is easy to learn is certifiable.

My childhood best friend's mother was a refugee from dictator Franco's Spain. Now, 75 plus years later Spain a pleasant place to live.

Japan tried to conquer all of Asia and now it's a benign, stable country and a strong ally.

We likely won't be around to see it but tides turn and America may some day return to it's democratic ideals.

For now fuck all those assholes to want to destroy what could have been a wonderful thing. I just hope the recovery from their destruction happens within my lifetime.

Meanwhile I'm not going anywhere. Too old and ensconced, but in a strong blue state that has already geared up to resist. I know that maggots are licking their lips to destroy my state. Fuck them, too.

BTW the ugliest house in my neighborhood, with a massive RV parked in front of their front window and huge flashy pick up trucks in the driveway, still displays their rump s, the only one to be seen for miles. Ugly house, inside and out. Why would you buy a giant costly RV if you can't afford to properly store it, and when you never use it? Idiots.

R161 Who said that?

edit: rump sign. R162

We just had an election. Maybe someday we'll return to democracy. LOL insert eye roll

R163, R89 said German is easy to learn because it is related to English.

Hey y’all I moved to Italy three years ago with my husband. 26 years in NYC, Covid, George Floyd riots - Basta!

I can tell you pretty much everything you need to know what to realistically expect moving to another country - specifically Italy. Let me know if you want a thread where you can ask any question you want.

Anyone wanting to come to the UK, this is the type of property you can get for US$100k. This is a 30 minute train journey into the nearest big city.

And it's just a short walk from Ynysangharad War Memorial Park.

No, it looks like a poster R88 said German is harder than Thai and R89 disagreed since German is related to English (where Thai is not) logically it should be easier than Thai which is not saying German is easy.

Anyone wanting to leave the US quickly, the UK has some lovely caravan parks that are very affordable. You can only live in them 10 months a year so maybe travel to somewhere hot and sunny in January and February?

[QUOTE] No, it looks like a poster [R88] said German is harder than Thai and [R89] disagreed since German is related to English (where Thai is not) logically it should be easier than Thai which is not saying German is easy.

Except that R88 doesn't actually speak either of those languages.

So Thai is easier than German?

[QUOTE] So Thai is easier than German?

Yes.

Maybe it varies from person to person about what's easier to learn. I read and speak a good deal of Italian, some French, and some Spanish. I took a little German on Duolingo or somehow. I found the subject-object-verb construction (SOV) and article agreement (die, der, den, etc) very difficult. I just did a cursory look at Thai and like English, it's SVO. There is only the present tense in Thai; past and future use adverbs (yesterday) and a helper verb (shall, will). What I think makes Thai difficult is the alphabet, and thus, reading. I think it would be easier to learn to converse in Thai (it's basically vocabulary) whereas it would be easier to learn to read/write German. We're going to Thailand in February, so I'll at least try to learn a few words to be polite. Just my two cents.

A former colleague of mine bought a house in Northern Italy (Torrazza Piemonte, a village in the Piemonte region) for EUR 35,000 three years ago, right after Covid. He spent around the same amount doing it up completely. He works remotely in IT (SharePoint consultant), earning a North American salary while living in one of the less expensive parts of Europe. He also owns a piece of land (which he bought for just EUR 15,000), where he grows walnut trees and various fruits and vegetables. His goal is to eventually become self-sufficient. He is not too far from the Swiss and French borders, near mountainous areas and vineyards, and Piemonte (including Turin) doesn't have a huge amount of tourism (yet--that may change in a few years). He loves his life there and has never looked back. He plans to retire there as well.

My boss asked me if I would be interested in a job in London.

I told him can I bitch-slap Charles Spencer because she's getting divorced for the 3rd time. Stop getting married faggot.

That's right R174. The tones are difficult and there are also some sounds made with the mouth in Thai that don't exist in English. That part is tricky. The rest is simple. Thai does have a different alphabet/script than English, but you don't need to learn that right away if you don't want to--many wait until they've been in the country a few years before getting to that part. Concentrate on hearing and speaking.

I'm a native Dutch speaker. Dutch and German are quite similar and obviously the two countries are neighbors, yet there are precious few Dutch speakers in 2024 who truly have a great command of German. Many say that while it's easy to learn the basics and get by in everyday situations, Germans are very precise in the way they express themselves (especially on more cerebral/abstract topics), which is harder for Dutch speakers to emulate. As you might expect, there are also a lot of false friends to contend with.

I'd love to live in the UK, but visas are pretty much impossible for retired people like me -unless we are filthy rich and have megabucks to "invest" in the local economy. I'm a retired teacher in California, and I've been looking into places where I could afford to live well. There's no point in leaving for a lower lifestyle (unless your life is threatened -and it may come to that...). I've been looking at Marbella, Spain. I am a fluent Spanish speaker already. I can easily rent a house or apartment for $2,000 a month, and the general cost of living is only a tenth as much as I currently pay. It's a coastal city with a beautiful climate, and Malaga airport is only half an hour away. Round-trip flights to London (theatre, shopping, food...) are substantially less than $100, so I could go for a few days every month or two. And I could do this without selling my house in California -just rent it out for the house payment/insurance. If I sold the house, I could buy an apartment with an ocean view and have a large savings in addition to my pension income. It's very attractive! I went to college in Spain, so I know what daily life is like there. The standard of living is quite high.

Will I do it? Dunno. The real issue isn't the need for the "American lifestyle" that several people above have suggested that all expats run home for. It's that my family and friends are all here -and none of them are in a position to move to Spain with me.

I don't think I'm going to get to leave. It depends on what both my sons plan on doing. My eldest is considering an escape with his wife and daughter. He has his own business that is portable and in a few months, he will likely hire my other son, who has been doing contract work for him for years. They live on opposite sides of the country and my younger son just bought a house in the Pacific Northwest. His fiancée is very close to her family and I haven't heard much from them about leaving. They are busy right now with jobs and the wedding. It's possible that my older one can emigrate to Canada; his wife has her doctorate in materials science. Both very skilled. That may open the door for his brother and wife. And me and my partner. In the best scenario, they both move to Canada, somewhere close to each other. My partner has his own business too. It's not portable so we are here as long as he needs to be. He would really love to get out now and talks about it, but he can't afford to retire. He's had his business for 30 years, but it's small and he never made much money from it. It's doing quite well right now, but he's almost 63 yo. And I work for him. He's working on trying to get me replaceable. I've been working for him for 12 years and I do all sorts of stuff, but i work cheap. He'd need a several people on a contract basis to do what I do. I'm 68 and he's thinking ahead. Anyway, doesn't look like it will be soon.

Go for it r167

I wonder why ALL the rankings have Thai much more difficult to learn than German or the romance languages. I suspect posters here aren't talking about fluency, just simple tourist conversing. The tones are very difficult in Thai.

I taught in a bilingual Thai/english school in northern Thailand. I also took Thai lessons and found the tones difficult. No one is saying impossible if you have years and years for fluency. I kind of felt sorry for the Thai kids too.

Thai has 44 consonant letters, 32 vowel markers and combinations, and 4 tone markers. This makes the total amount of letters in Thai 80, one of the largest out of any sound-based writing system used for a living language.

Early in the first Trump term I moved from my native U.S. to Spain. The move was not an escape from Trump, rather it was that I liked Spain much more and wanted to establish my life there.

I had the considerable advantages of an EU passport, a Spanish partner, and a highly portable job Those things bypassed or very significantly reduced the bureaucratic and other hurdles. For me it's been a fantastic experience without regrets. There was some acclimatization of course, a learning curve if you like, but when you love a place and want be a part of it, it's easy I think.

Wanting to make your life in some particular place and knowing that it's you who will have to change, not your new city is key it seems. The effort that R105 described is key because there's some work involved in finding your way in a new place, no matter how appealing it is from the surface ir from a distance.

R171 Are you fluent in Thai and German?

OP- It's good that you're thinking about it but there is no way you should pay/apply for a visa in Central America before you've spent time there and know exactly how you will fit into the culture. How will you contribute?

I worked, travelled and volunteered in most of the countries and I can tell you you need to be prepared. You can't just plop yourself down somewhere and expect to have privacy and safety.

Unless you move to an expat conclave with security, you'll have to consider very carefully where you move to. Even then, you could end up with a bunch of Trumpers around you. Any single woman is vulnerable and it takes time to understand the quirks of all the countries which are all completely different.

If you want the semi-anonymity of high rise, beach, living- That's Panama City. Costa Rica is expensive, Nicaragua is poor and run by a dictator. On the plus side, it's probably the safest and cheapest but it's more privative. They also have an attractive visa program, I believe. El Salvador has possibilities but the culture is limited. Guatemala has everything except beaches and the richest culture to explore but the govt/police/gangs can be deadly.

Belize is English speaking but has a weird vibe, too many cultures to try and figure out. I never felt safe there but it's beautiful. You may just want to stand your ground for awhile. There's not going to be a run on Panama retirement visas anytime soon.

[quote] yet there are precious few Dutch speakers in 2024 who truly have a great command of German.

I don't think that means German is harder than Thai necessarily, just that command of a second language takes a long time.

I would definitely have to check out any prospects before I just up and moved. It’s easier to fit in some places than others.

I would love to buy some run down house in rural Italy, but that’s gone total fascist, too, and I don’t want to deal with that OR the red tape there to get building/repair permits.

I used to speak Italian decently, but I haven’t had to speak it in about 20 years, so I’d have to re-learn it, and that’s fine. I love the way it sounds and it’s fun to speak.

In the early '90s, I lived in Rome, Italy, for three years. I had a job there with an international NGO, and the work was very rewarding. I loved Italy, and learned to speak pretty good Italian.

But I had a boyfriend back in the States, and maintaining a long-distance relationship was extremely difficult. When the assignment ended, I could have stayed in Rome, but I opted to come back to the US with hopes of salvaging our relationship. It was obvious within a month that the relationship was over. I wished I had followed my heart and stayed/returned to Italy, but I decided to stay in the US, and thirty years later, here I am.

I know it isn't very smart to second-guess choices, but I do wonder how it would have gone if I had stayed...

We have just NOT talked about Thai and German enough.

Let's have 67,489,235,612 more posts on this very engaging topic!

Thanks, R185 -- I appreciate the input. But I'm pulling out all the stops to make some connections. I just talked to the NY president of the Latino motorcycle group I used to ride with and he's going to put me in touch with a woman he knows who has family in Panama and goes back and forth a few times a year. I also have a Cubano friend from that club who will be in Costa Rica by January. His wife (who's from there) has just finished having a house built and they're going to live there permanently. I can stay with them if I need to. I linked to the Panama chapter of the club on Facebook and I will probably contact them before I go. So I'm hoping I will have some folks who can help me out once I get there.

I understand completely what you're saying. Still, even if I only go there to get the visa and come right back here, I'll have an escape hatch. And if I get nothing else out of all of this, that in and of itself will make it all worthwhile.

There is a certain irony in that those of you talking about emigrating since the Trump victory and having issues with the MAGA approach to immigrants - i.e.: round 'em up and send 'em home - and yet you're blithely throwing around the names of various countries upon which to honor with your presence, whether or not they want you or whether or not you know anything about those countries: "I was thinking New Zealand". "Maybe Canada". "Ecuador could be nice". My grandfather was Irish". "My brother's friend says that Uruguay is nice" as if you're choosing dinner from an extensive a la carte menu at a three star restaurant. Observing from the sidelines, I have to say that the arrogance of some - not all - of you is staggering.

There is nothing arrogant about it R191. The one thing to Dems really slipped up on was conflating ILLEGAL immigration to Immigration in general. Most people have not problem with legal immigration. Dems went out of their way defending illegal immigrants. And might I add NO ONE hates illegal immigrants more than people who have immigrated here legally - because it is hard as fuck and takes years. Now we have to deal with the possible reality of Repugs attacking legal immigrants as well now.

And if you go to another country you are applying for a VISA which will allow you to legally immigrate there. If they don't want you they won't give you a visa, plain and simple. There is no arrogance. But I do sense a bit of ignorance on your part.

For you R181

I’m fascinated by the sidebar brouhaha about Thai being easier to learn than German (lol, IT’S NOT).

And I repeat from R55, go on and expatriate if you really want to, if your destination country is calling to your heart, that kind of thing. If you’re just spiraling in the wake of this election, and fear is the sole reason… rethink.

[quote] I’m fascinated by the sidebar brouhaha about Thai being easier to learn than German

It’s a lot more interesting than the faux drama some have tried to generate by claiming they are planning to leave the country. People are bound to get bored with the childishness of the drama and turn to something else like languages.

Let me reiterate for R194, who apparently has a comprehension problem:

[quote]Still, even if I only go there to get the visa and come right back here to live, the visa will give me an escape hatch. And if I get nothing else out of all of this, that in and of itself will have made it all worthwhile.

If I had a nickel for every time somebody told me I couldn't/wouldn't do something, and I did it (and well), I could have retired long ago. I have been shocking people all my life with the things I've managed to accomplish. You should never doubt the iron will of a female biker -- even when she's as old as I am.

Hi senior lesbian, I thought there were several persons in here talking about expatriating. If it’s only you, I apologize

[quote]If I had a nickel for every time somebody told me I couldn't/wouldn't do something, and I did it

That could be somewhat amusing to tell you that you can't do something that is detrimental and then watch you do it out of spite.

No problem, R197 -- perhaps I misunderstood you as well. I imagine I'm not the only person on here talking about leaving -- but I pay the most attention to li'l ol' me. Sorry!

bye felicia

Cunts.

I am, except I’m actually going to do that by still living here.

I'm leaving the planet, bitches.

SL- I'm happy to hear your well supported. Panama has the best roads, good hospitals and uses the USD. David/Boquete, in the north, draws a lot of expats, some live in the heat and others live up the volcano in the cooler air. It would be one of my top choices in all of Central America. One negative is the long and getting longer every year, rainy season. The mosquitos were brutal. I'm scratching myself just thinking about it.

Senior Lesbian/OP/R199. Might you consider Argentina? The residency requirements seem comparatively simple and the financial requirements are somewhat lower than those of Spain, and much lower than those of Mexico, Citizenship is possible after two years of continuous residency.

(Check other sources for more current details, but linked item seems a decent overview.)

Thanks, R204 -- whenever I read anything about the weather in Panama, I tell myself that living in Central Florida on the edge of a swamp is pretty good training for living there. So yeah, I'm aware. In fact, I damned near froze to death today since it went down into the 50s last night and only up to the mid 70s today! At least if you live somewhere the weather is relatively stable you get the chance to get used to it. Anyone who says Florida doesn't have "seasons" should come down here to live. A few years ago there was frost on my windshield so thick -- in March! -- that I wrote the date on it followed by "Frost Again???" And where I live, there are even trees with leaves that change color.

And R205, does Argentina still have that same ridiculous rate of inflation? I checked it out briefly a couple of years ago, but frankly, even if they didn't have the inflation issue, I don't want to live someplace that has an actual winter season. That's also part of the reason I wouldn't go to Uruguay. Plus both of those places are expensive to get to and too far away.

Thanks for the suggestions!

I am absolutely contemplating a move.

I would be able to move based on my spouse - not trying to go as a single person trying to clear any type of point system.

I personally wish I could live in Canada, but I do fall short of the points system there. (I did in 2000 and would do so, in a different way, 25 years later.)

Yes, there are lots of people who have said they'd leave in a very glib sort of way, but I am serious about it. And I love this country. But I can no longer have a sense of safety with the rise of fascism. And quite frankly, my retirement dollars will go farther in most other countries, especially if we lose the ACA.

I wish it wasn't so. I'm sure my German ancestors who came here 200 years ago to escape religious and/or economic conditions wished it weren't so, either. But alas, it was.

SL, have you seen "The Tailor of Panama" based on the John LeCarre novel? It's excellent. It could get you in the mood!

I'll check it out, R208!

I am shocked that Africa is never mentioned in this thread as an option. OK well one person did say they were moving to Egypt but....Africa is actually safer, on the whole, than Latin America. Plus it's not really on America's radar, so it's unlikely that it will be subject to bombing campaigns. And, most importantly, I'm sure you could live quite comfortably in many places there, if you're worried about finances.

Just grabbing my popcorn.

Pick out a country in Africa in which I can become fluent in Spanish, R210, and I'll certainly look into it!

R211, I’m American and I’m so glad you posted. These ignorant fucks STILL aren’t clocking how the world sees us yet?!?! Can you even believe it?!?? They are that stupid. I apologize to your Continent for our people and our government. I would never insult Europe with my presence after this. Please keep giving it to them. They ain’t AWAKE, even now!!!!! It’s pathetic, and I can’t fight it any longer. I have for ten years. Uncle. We fucking lost America, forever. And they don’t even know it yet. So stupid. Stupidest people to ever live, they don’t deserve it any more.

There are two Spanish exclaves just across the straits of Gibraltar - Ceuta and Melilla - as well as the Canary Islands, SL, geographically part of Africa although not by much.

Still, too far away. Thanks, though!

I’ve asked before upthread and on other threads - what makes so many of you assume that your country of choice wants you? They may want your money - attested to by various economic visas on offer - but if it was me I wouldn’t necessarily expect to be welcomed just because I am cashed up and the exchange rate is good. This is particularly so as most of the countries being mentioned in Asia and Central and South America - less so in Europe) have populaces for whom the option of shifting countries with a suitcase full of cash just because the current government is bad is a pipe dream.

Well R211 at least we're not vicious CU Next Tuesdays like u.

You have revealed yourself to me, R214

They want us enough to offer us visas, R217, which is sufficient. Once there, it's up to us to fit in and adapt to the culture. When you speak the language and know a bit about local customs people tend to be very accepting.

Man up R218 - the word is “cunt” while “U” is an honorific in the language of Burma/Myanmar - you mean “you”.

R191: If a Frenchman decides to move to Canada or a Brit to Spain, or a Dutchman to Japan, or a South Asian to America, it’s not arrogance. But if an American is deciding to move elsewhere it is? You don’t think other nationalities mull over their lives and move to a place that may make their lives better or interesting or safe?

Oh I appreciate the benefits of speaking the language and understanding the culture, R220 - I have spent many years living and working in South East Asia and Europe and always made an effort.

But I have also observed clusters of expats living in expat enclaves, never learning the language, not trying to understand the culture or trying to engage with people other than their own nationalities. This is particularly prevalent in parts of Thailand, Indonesia and Cambodia as well as parts of Spain and Portugal. Sitting in the sun and complaining about everything. Many of these would be economic refugees, eking out the most of their Dollar, Euro or Pound.

Marcy Wheeler on BlueSky pointed out a very interesting fact. The slide to the far right is a *global movement* bad actors at home and abroad have invested billions in this project. Think you can escape it? The answer is likely no.

This resonated with me as a Canadian who has absolutely see a rise in rabid far right sentiment. It got a lot worse after Covid. Millions of people stuck in their homes with disinformation from every social media platform. Trumpism is a symptom of a very terrifying disease.

R224, and I would say less than 5% of America is clocking that that’s what’s happening. TOTAL denial. There is no escape now that America fell.

[quote]I’ve asked before upthread and on other threads - what makes so many of you assume that your country of choice wants you?

Honey @ R217, I've already lived in a country that didn't want me -- in West Germany during the Cold War as an American soldier.

And -- I'm completely serious, now -- I lived in Connecticut as a grad student, and I have never been so shunned by a population in all my life. Most miserable people on the planet, and everyone who isn't a Mayflower descendant is "new" and an outsider.

I rode in a Latino motorcycle club as a non-Latina, and made a lot of friends there. They're a whole lot friendlier than the Connecticut denizens.

Last but not least, I've been here on DL since 2004, and if you mfers can't chase me away, what makes you think I can't get along in a country that actually gives discounts to expats who retire there?

[quote]the option of shifting countries with a suitcase full of cash

Hahahahahaha! I guess most of you gentlemen have suitcases full of cash, but as a lesbian who's been out all my life (fighting for your rights as well), and had a negligible professional career directly due to that simple fact, I have never had that suitcase full of cash. Maybe you can loan me some...?

Actually, R222, if you re-read my post you’ll see that I didn’t specifically call out Americans - although of course the thread is about Americans choosing countries based on very little knowledge. And if you read my post R223 (posted before just now before I read yours) you’ll see that I have seen behaviour in multiple countries and from multiple nationalities over the years.

You’re being a little sensitive or maybe a few of us trying to inject some rational thought into the discussion might have struck a nerve. Well, R211 possibly isn’t being rational!

Good luck with your emigration.

Hey SL I’m not trying to chase you away from here - why would I? FYI it was me who suggested Spanish exclaves in Africa upthread when you asked a question. I’ve also been here for a while myself and I appreciate you fighting for my rights, I guess - I’m 64 so tbh have been doing it myself since the eighties.

The “suitcase of cash” was poorly chosen so sorry that offended as none was meant.

What misinformation? People live. People experience. People work. People see. Then they vote. Statistics are meaningless. The rethugs got that. The Dems didn't.

Anna from The Young Turks was as liberal and anti Trump as they come. I hadn't watched it in a long time. I was very surprised to see she was furious not at the deplorables as so many Dems are but the Dems themselves for being so blind and self congratulatory and insular. But as my sister said to me before the election I am voting for Trump but I'm not a horrible person! And she's not.

[quote]I’ve asked before upthread and on other threads - what makes so many of you assume that your country of choice wants you? They may want your money - attested to by various economic visas on offer...

R217, it's not so much whether another country wants immigrants and "wants" to grant residency permits, it's a matter of policy. If they want to admit foreigners, they establish programs to do so, narrowing it broadening the aperture as suits them.

The almighty U.S. is hardly above, as you say, "wanting the money" of foreign investors in its own Golden Visa program. Perhaps like other countries they see some level of immigration (and emigration) as somewhere in a scale between Unfortunately Inevitable and some shade of Beneficial (whether to boost coffers, population, workforce, intellectual resources, or whatever.)

Nations have laws allowing immigration the controls of which are tightened and loosened over time. People applying for residency of some sort or a citizenship track meet the criteria and interpretations or they don't.

Whether immigrants are "wanted" in the sense of their potential welcome and incorporation into the local communities of their new country of residence depends of a complex array of factors. There's no one answer to that interpretation of the question "who will want you?"

Thanks for the civics lesson R230, but I understand the reasoning and policy decisions as to why a country’s government might seek out economic immigrants.

My point was about the reaction of the people of the countries involved - you know - doctors, taxi drivers, cleaners, teachers and the myriad other people who the economic immigrants maybe encounter. If the immigrant wants to embrace the culture and the country - these are the people who matter.

But if not people can settle in their cheap air conditioned high rise and spend their days in the local expat bar. Which many do.

Gurl, I don't have the strength I'd need to say what I'd really like to say on this thread.

I tried for dual citizenship. My father was born and grew up in Italy. My mother's family as well and she was the first child in her family born here. I was denied as my father gave up his citizenship before I was born. So I was born to Americans on both sides of my family.

R231. Then the question you want answered - and ask at every available occasion- is unanswerable. And you know it.

"Who wants you[r sorry ass]?" depends on 100 factors at least, some of which are in the control of the immigrant and some of which are not.

Some cultures, some countries, some cab drivers are more open to immigrants than others. Some are by degrees more wary or more welcoming. Some emigrants make the effort to act as courteous guests; some act as entitled VIPs who expect to be showered with courtesy for the privilege of their presence or who recoil in terror and isolation to expat enclaves.

Personal experience will vary.

R234 you’re not telling me anything that I don’t already know, so I guess that I’m not very good at getting my point across.

No drama! I know what I mean and you know what you mean. The twain doesn’t always have to meet.

Have a good one.

To R205, the Argentine economy collapses every 8 to 10 years and then they declare bankruptcy. They default on their loans& go thru the whole process again in about 10 years.

My worry is about buying property and banking outside of the US. While things may be okay now, what's to say that some future government will not seize all the assets of ex-pats (the outsiders who are ruining our lives)? Also, the cost of healthcare. While it can be fairly inexpensive in a lot of places, e.g., Mexico, it can get quite expensive as you get older and have more complicated or chronic problems.

I love the Latin culture, as I've said here before, although I can live without the machismo.

I taught FT for three years at a community college where the vast majority of my students had parents who came here from Puerto Rico. Most of my other students were from Latino countries, with a smattering of American black and white kids.

My Puerto Rican bff and I flew to PR; I wanted to immerse myself in the culture so I could understand where my students came from. I really enjoyed myself, but there was a lot of crime. I almost decided to get a second M.A. there in teaching English as a second language, but at the last minute, I decided not to go. The textbooks were awfully difficult for someone who didn't major in English as an undergrad! Lots of jargon I didn't want to learn.

Anyway, I am decidedly not a typical "ugly American" -- but then again, I've never been a typical [italic]anything[/italic]. And today I had yet another person, after we had a conversation, tell me I should write an autobiography (he's a professor and a writer). Maybe I will, once everything shakes out one way or another.

I have been very prickly -- I'm sorry. I've been running on adrenaline ever since the election. I can't make myself calm down (no booze, either -- clean and sober 43 years). I've been listening to a Spanish radio station out of Orlando and watching Telemundo. But I think I'll take a break now and watch some more episodes of Judging Amy. That seems to have a calming effect. Ciao, DLers. Thanks for all your help.

Oh shit, Old Lez is still alive, isn't there another hurricane coming? No worries, it seems you float really well.

[quote] You’re being a little sensitive or maybe a few of us trying to inject some rational thought into the discussion might have struck a nerve

Honestly, I could do without your condescending tone. You’re like John Gielgud’s Hobson without the wit or charm.

None of you are leaving. 🙄

AP.-Cruise company offers Americans a 4-year escape from Trump presidency

Right, R240 - so, just to confirm, you only want to hear other peoples’ feedback if it agrees with you?

You hear “condescending” - others hear “realistic”.

You might want to work on that in your great anti-Trump emigration - a thin skin isn’t going to get you far.

Happy trails, R240!

[quote] None of you are leaving. 🙄

And yet there are millions of Americans already living abroad, plus countless more long-term nomads/travellers. I am one of them. I've done both - left the first time for 8 years, going on 4 this time. Never going back. Why wouldn't more people leave now when things are only going to get catastrophically worse?

[quote]I’ve asked before upthread and on other threads - what makes so many of you assume that your country of choice wants you? They may want your money - attested to by various economic visas on offer - but if it was me I wouldn’t necessarily expect to be welcomed just because I am cashed up and the exchange rate is good. This is particularly so as most of the countries being mentioned in Asia and Central and South America - less so in Europe) have populaces for whom the option of shifting countries with a suitcase full of cash just because the current government is bad is a pipe dream.

You keep asking this r17. Basically if they did not want you, they wouldn't give you a fucking Visa. They don't just hand those things out, it's a long process. And if anyone else has a fucking problem with it, just tell them "you're Government didn't seem to mind..."

Thanks so much for your feedback, R245.

Just a little FYI for you - I am not American and so unlike you I am not a citizen of a country that has just elected a fascist whose policies are so repugnant that I am looking at leaving my country of birth to accommodate him.

I’m simply sitting on the sidelines watching people like you spiral as the alleged greatest democracy on Earth implodes.

Good luck with your emigration - I’m pretty happy right where I am today.

Can I move in with you?

R246, it doesn't matter where you are from? The answer to your question that you've repeatedly asked is the same. Take that for what it's worth and keep it moving.

[quote]Gathering collective wisdom here!

Who could possibly imagine that gathering the collective wisdom of the DataLounge could take over three days?

[quote] None of you are leaving

Watch us, bitch.

r224, I have a little tin foil chat onspiracy thought regarding the movement of far right groups in different countries- USA, UK, Austria, Netherlands, France, Italy, Argentina, Canada...etc. Surely a cabal is behind it?

Yes r251. It’s called Putin. He is here to conquer all of us, and Elon is here to help him.

R252 It's not tin foilish to simply observe that since the dissolution of the USSR and the ascendency of Putin international oligarchs have coordinated more with each other to direct economies. It's not rocket science - international corporations were challenged and resisted (Sherman, Clayton, Federal Trade Commission Acts in the US, 1914. The communist revolution 1917.) then they gained more ability to cross borders and grow power and influence... and then the tech dot com bubble and the breakup of the USSR... and then the economic reform of China opened it to international trade... and in the last decade the oligarchs have organized politics to create disruption... disruption hurts the 99% of countries, but always, always leverages forces to give extreme wealth more wealth. C.f. how COVID gave billionaires more billions.

The "America First" deception, which is Trump's Wooden Horse, is absolutely a scheme wherein Musk and the oligarch billionaires assure that nothing will get in the way of their accrual of even more wealth.

Putin doesn't necessarily want to take the West over. Not all of it.

What he DOES want to do is create chaos in the West so that Western leaders are distracted, which will allow him to do as he wants without NATO obstruction, etc.

[quote]What he DOES want to do is create chaos in the West so that Western leaders are distracted, which will allow him to do as he wants without NATO obstruction, etc.

The sooner we become unified instead of fragmented, the better it will be to defend against that.

[quote]The sooner we become unified instead of fragmented, the better it will be to defend against that.

From Travel+Leisure a listing of countries where you can:

1.) buy citizenship by way of investment

2.) buy a residency permit by investment, and, at some later point, apply for citizenship (the residency is usually limited to X years with the opportunity to extend)

[quote]so, just to confirm, you only want to hear other peoples' feedback if it agrees with you

Not at all. I’ve been hearing other people’s feedback on here for 21 years. I didn’t like yours because you were smug. People are nervous and are bouncing ideas off others and talking out loud in this thread. Some may move, others are contemplating. You reduced them by saying they’re ordering off a menu like a joke. You have no idea how they really feel or what will happen to them. This is a serious matter.

[quote]You hear "condescending" - others hear "realistic".

I heard correctly, Smithers.

[quote]You might want to work on that in your great anti-Trump emigration

I never said I was leaving in any of my posts. I have too many ties to my home state. And I’m done communicating to with you.

[quote]Happy Trails!

Cheerio!

R258, I applaud the spanking you gave. Sophisticated wordsmithing!

R259 “Sophisticated wordsmithing” doesn’t usually include the word “cheerio”, which basic Americans of a certain age think all English people say.

Apart from which, I’m not English, but of course R258 assumes that I am.

I was surprised to learn you can actually buy US citiizenship - $500k. If you buy a place for $500 and up, you get US citizenship. Or at least you used to. That’s why you had the apartments in NYC for 60-80 million dollars - bought by so group. It would be a bunch of Chinese people chipping in to buy citizenship. Also to park their money here.

You're ALL cunts.

[quote]I was surprised to learn you can actually buy US citiizenship - $500k. If you buy a place for $500 and up, you get US citizenship. Or at least you used to.

Why surprised, R261?

As I understand it, you cannot get permanent residency in the U.S. for $500K invested in real estate or your own home, nor for a larger amount.

The best (and only? at least for the moment) way to buy permanent residency (with a route to citizenship) is by the EB-5 investment visa, which requires something over $1M plus the creation of 10 or more permanent U.S. jobs.

I think this program fee was $800K for many years before raising the threshold to $1M and then more. Background checks are still required, but it's a shortcut to a green card/permanent residency and possible citizenship in 5 years.

Does anyone know a pretty brothel I could work in in Scotland, perhaps with a Belle Epoch feel, until I got residency clearance? Housing on the premises would be necessary.

TIA

I'm sure Scotland can get you drunk enough to believe you're where-ever you want to believe you are, dear.

Look at the lovely properties available in Glasgow. This bijou apartment would be perfect for a drug dealer, tarot card reader or paedophile.

[QUOTE] You're ALL cunts.

They are. Instead of staying here to fight for democracy, they cut and run.

Nah, it's you. They already left us to die once. I'm not chancing it again, r267.

Since a lot of you have finance backgrounds, would you care to speculate what's going to happen to foreign currencies that either [italic]are[/italic] the U.S. dollar (like Ecuador) or are pegged to the U.S. dollar (like Panama)?

TIA

There's a whole world out there, but Americans seem to be limiting their options to a tiny handful of places -- Canada, UK, Spain and "some random Latin country because it's cheap and close to the USA". 🙄🙄

Way too many of them will move into these countries and create resentment among the locals.

R270 American expat communities have existed in those countries for decades. I mean, Lake Chapala near Guadalajara looks and feels like fucking Orange Country, CA.

Resentment (culture, raising prices) and welcome (capital influx, economic development) has always been the case. The scale of it will rise some... but not that much.

[quote] There's a whole world out there, but Americans seem to be limiting their options to a tiny handful of places -- Canada, UK, Spain and "some random Latin country because it's cheap and close to the USA". 🙄🙄

Not everyone is cut out to deal with extreme culture shock or learning a difficult new language. It's also not worth leaving the US for another conservative country with the same or worse fascistic tendencies, homophobia, etc. Then you need to make sure you can deal with the climate. I loathe heat and humidity, so SE Asia was miserable for me.

And, of course, one has to qualify for a visa and have some income source (except for the wealthy who can just buy their way into any country).

R270 This has already happened in Spain and Portugal.

[quote] They are. Instead of staying here to fight for democracy, they cut and run.

I've been physically assaulted every decade of my life in America because of my sexuality.

I have fought in every way I know possible for my country, but I am not going to stand by while her other citizens murder me and leave me to bleed out on American soil. Like my ancestors 200 years ago, I will migrate to a place that is safer for me and where I can live my remaining days in peace.

There's a large class of Americans who don't care what they have in life, they just don't want to think that anyone else might want or have more than they do.

Ignorant and proud of it, they don't like their peers who want to advance beyond them in education. They don't want to travel. Rather than say "it's not for me" and leaving it at that, they must condemn people who do want to travel as uppity, full of themselves, presumptuous, too big for their britches, putting on airs of superiority, trying to go places they don't belong. Don't try to leave your backwater home town. Don't do anything or go anywhere that might result in putting a foot outside the circle of the ordinary. Don't make waves of wanting something different for yourself, if only because it makes the people you leave behind feel small and angry.

It's not they they want what you have or desire having, it's that they want to begrudge you for it.

R275 Who hurt you honey?

I fear I must now live the life of a scattershot sugar baby, circling the globe on some nefarious businessman’s yacht as he pawns me off on his colleagues.

I tell you, I can’t do it all over again!

[quote]r275 Don't try to leave your backwater home town. Don't do anything or go anywhere that might result in putting a foot outside the circle of the ordinary. Don't make waves…

I feel a big group number coming on!

AND END ACT I

Italy has just created a website where you can buy a house in Sardinia for one dollar!

[quote]ARE YOU WORNED OUT BY GLOBAL POLITICS?

Well, it’s not a town for the “Oh Dear” crowd!

[quote] ARE YOU WORNED OUT

Worn out!

I think the "Oh, Dear" crowd's town would be a Babel with high risk zone for sinkholes with all that anal retentiveness and unwillingness to understand how linguistics works.

R279, Italy has an enormous array of independent programs of villages and regions offering €1 houses, and at higher (still very low) costs and a range of incentives for investment and repopulating areas of declining population. Other programs (as also found in Spain) offer token rents or purchase incentives for people willing to operate a bar or shop or bakery, for instance, ensuring continuity of services to the residents.

The program details can vary significantly but it's worth keeping in mind that often it is better to spend more upfront for a house that needs selected improvements rather than the €1 houses. The €1 houses typically in some state of ruin and in need of extensive repairs with the close involvement of city government, in short a project not easily coordinated from afar or without language skills.

I really need to get focused on learning a new language.

R284 I recommend Japanese. It trips me out that I'm able to read non-Romanized symbols. There's something very rewarding about that, hard to explain.

バイデン大統領 (Baiden Daitouryo)

^It says President Biden. Or, technically "Biden President" if reading in order.

[QUOTE] Not everyone is cut out to deal with extreme culture shock or learning a difficult new language. It's also not worth leaving the US for another conservative country with the same or worse fascistic tendencies, homophobia, etc. Then you need to make sure you can deal with the climate. I loathe heat and humidity, so SE Asia was miserable for me.

Well thanks for your opinion. It sounds like you people aren't ready to be expats, you are looking for a pit stop for four years and then come back to the USA.

As for culture shock, it can happen in unlikely places. There is a high failure rate for both Americans who move to the UK, and American Jews who move to Israel.

I was looking at this site online and it appears Canada has many of the same issues the US has. There are also other threads on "r/canada" with Canadian redditors totally livid about too many Indians from Gujarat being allowed in their country.

So what celebrities have put their money where their mouth is and have actually left? Richard Gere. Ellen DeGeneres. Eva Longoria. Who else is joining the great exodus? There really IS only so much you can take and we all just have one life to live.

[quote] I was looking at this site online and it appears Canada has many of the same issues the US has.

People trying to flee their first world problems find that people in other first world countries also have first world problems? Shocking.

You have to know Japanese kanji characters at about an eight grade level to read a Japanese newspaper. Thousands of permutations. When I learned that, I was out.

I would ABSOLUTELY decamp from the rotting-from-the-inside U.S. if I could! It would have to be somewhere with a mild (to gray!) climate, as I hate the heat.

And an awful thing is that while I’m liberal, I’m really only interested in western European culture. I don’t know why - I’m comforted by the familiar, and my brain just isn’t very ambitious or adventurous that way.

So my options would be limited. I may as well just stay under my bed.

Well with 1 euro homes in Italy, a whole community could remake a town in their image. I am really surprised more young people aren't doing it. Forego the larger cities and totally build up an empty small ancient town. To have the home of your dreams would cost about 100k.

I think it would be really funny - like, would your house get burned down? - if you bought a cheap lot in the center of one of those towns, then proceeded to build a Colonial Revival home with a wishing well out front. All Americana style, with your Stars and Stripes flying from the second story.

I wonder how one could make it even more annoying. You could do a lot of grilling on the lawn, maybe, with a big, Williamsburg Green picnic table.

Heaven forbid they should have to learn another language, R292!

You overestimate their ambitions.

You really don’t HAVE to r294. Of course you should, and it makes your quality of life better. But I know people who have been here 10-12 years whose Italian is worse than mine and they get along perfectly fine. And the more Americans you have in the small towns, the less Italian you have to learn.

I think the thing to say, though, is that no expat experience will be free of deep culture shock, even in English-speaking countries. Cultural adjustment32 can be as acute of a mental health issue as depression. For example, the blunt, cutting feedback culture of France can be really tough for Americans who associate that kind of directness with shaming and personal dislike.

Case in point: A naive twink on TikTok is posting videos about using Tinder's Passport feature to connect with Irish and Australian men to find a husband. His approach seemed shallow and unrealistic, and I'm getting out the popcorn if he succeeds because he's in for some serious culture shock.

[quote]no expat experience will be free of deep culture shock, even in English-speaking countries. Cultural [adjustment] can be as acute of a mental health issue as depression.

Of course it could be, but there are also those who take to a new place like a duck to water and who understand and thrive, embracing the differences without being undone by them. All depends entirely on the person and the situation. Discovering differences in behavior, attitudes, sense of humor, customs, laws, etiquette... it's part of the deal. If a person has spent any time in the country to which they have moved, or if he simply makes a little effort to maintain an attitude of 'I'm curious and want to learn, what I don´t know I'll find out as I go,' there's no reason he can't land very nicely and without 'deep culture shock.'

Those who keep one foot firmly planted in the country where they're from and who rank every little thing poorly because it's not exactly like what they once knew may, unsurprisingly, come out sour and unhappy. The paper towels are different, the way you pay for things is different, the way people stare you up and down in the street but don't say hello is different, the food is different, the hours, tthe questions you are asked as a newcomer, the types of shops and restaurants, how children behave, friendships and family relations, how difficult it is to get a driver's license, how strange it is to live in a place where a car is not necessary, the prices, the post office, banking, nothing is exactly like what they were used to. But, better or worse or just different, why is that a bad thing?

People disposed to hating change are in for some surprises and maybe a rough time. But hopefully more people change countries hoping to embrace some change and find a new place for themselves in every sense. Some people averse to change find a little expat bubble and try not to stray from it, others want the full experience and love what they find.

No doubt there are people who could move from rural Texas to rural Oklahoma and and everything that came out of their mouths would start, 'Well, back in Texas...' Some people never adjust to food that isn't made exactly as their mother made it. Some people overestimate that a new place is the solution to old problems. Those sorts don't need to cross time zones and international borders to be grumpy and unhappy and hate the way things are done, it may as well be part of their DNA.

Yes, moving from one country to another will have its differences and adjustments. Whether those amount to depression and mental health concerns, however, is down to the individual.

I had what I thought was an open attitude, r297, but ended up getting smacked with culture shock twice. We're not talking about hospitalsiation-level depression here. It's more like longer-lasting sadness, disillusionment and confusion when the initial euphoria wears off and there's some inevitable surprises, not pining away for home with unhealthy attachments. Lots of shades of grey here. Conceptualising how different everything is culturally is different kettle of fish than the actual experience of that difference, no matter how open you are to it.

Thanks for the explanation R298. There are a million small things to learn and a million small adjustments (and a few large), even for the eager to acclimate. For me language is the big hurdle, the shadow over everything. Knowing that I will always have a strange accent is fine, and I can laugh without injury and explain to someone whose ear I've surprised or offended. To learn a new language and to recognize that it will be years before I am reasonably adept and fluid at it is one thing, but to know that I may never attain more than a hint of the the proficiently and ingenuinity that I enjoy in my native language -- that is daunting. While it's something I have some command over, beyond that it's down to time and practice. The long timeline and the imperfect outcome are simply to be accepted.

Years into it, I recognize the wearing off of the initial honeymoon of euphoria you describe, when the time to be bright-eyed and enthusiastic about everything is past and you realize it really is your home now, that it's time to retire the 'New in Town!' banner and boosterism. Aside from that neither good nor bad realization, it's been very much a positive experience, without disillusionment or regrets. I did have the considerable advantange of having made many prior visits and some extended months long stays, and it's my partner's home country where his friends and family were kind and welcoming from the start. I feel more a part of where I live now than I ever did in the past. Maybe the feeling of being somewhat apart from where I was born and lived most of my life benefitted me in the move.

People need to stop making excuses and just leave.

Visas just don't magically appear, cunt. It's been a month.

Go. Now.

Why yes, I'd LOVE to bet my life plans on a Forbes article. What a fucking moron you are, r302.

Supposedly Horrible Harry said he'll be leaving. Please, God, yes, and hopely he brings that narc, sociopath skank with him.

OP, except for Ellen, good riddance, no one is going nowheres. We've been through all this already.

[quote]r302 Here Are 3 Countries You Can Move to Today

Belize, Panama, and Uruguay? No thank you.

I want countries to start a bidding war over me.

I look 36, and have a lot to offer!

Surely some of the 306 posters on this thread are making progress on emigrating? It wasn’t all talk, was it?

At least two of us already have.

[quote] Belize, Panama, and Uruguay? No thank you.

There will always be an excuse for those who swore they would leave the country immediately.

Going on a vacation doesn’t count.

We need to get rid of as much dead weight as possible then bring in immigrants who want to be trained as subway police say in nyc , serve in the military, and in general do the hard dirty work most on DL would never consider.

Something about not letting the door hit you on the way out.

Bitter much, R310?

My update: As of last Thursday, I have all my paperwork ready to send to the lawyer I chose in Panama. He came highly recommended, although his firm is a teeny bit more expensive (I choose to believe he's actually being honest about the cost). All I need to do now is FedEx him the papers I had approved at the Panamanian consulate in Tampa and make a plane reservation.

But Trump is making noises about shipping "illegals" to Panama, among other countries, so I'm starting to wonder if I've chosen the right country. I got along marvelously with the nice young lady at the consulate (IDK why people are so happy when I speak my horrible Spanish, but they are), so I plan to call her and see if I can probe her brain for more info before I send the papers.

[quote]US President-elect Donald Trump is drawing up a list of countries to which he could deport migrants when their home countries refuse to accept them, including Panama, NBC News reported. Among the countries to which migrants are said to be sent are: Panama, Turks and Caicos Islands, the Bahamas and Grenada, sources told the media.

MFing Trump seeps his nastiness into any available crack. Even trying to GTFO of here, I'm completely cognizant of his repulsive ubiquity. Bah.

Where the fuck does Dotard think he's going to find room for migrants in Turks & Caicos? There's only two cities, everything but the coast line is uninhabited, and it's a British territory!

I emigrated from the US during Trump's first term.

Saying that one might move and making it a serious goal to move and taking steps toward that end are very different things. Retirees, freelance workers, grand/parents from a very few countries, holders of multiple citizenship, and self-sufficieny of assets, careers in labor shortage areas, investors...all *may* have a leg up in the process. But beyond basic eligibility, there are scores of questions of language proficiency, comparative cost-of-living, financial feasbility, career flexibilty, and fundamental questions of adaptablity to change.

There are one or two posters who is always saying the same things: none of you will ever do this! it's all talk! none of you are going anywhere! Of course it's true that very few people or those who express even the most casual will do it. Most get kicked out of consideration straight away because they don't meet the visa eligibility requirements, or the process and adjustment seems too daunting.

It's also true that 5.5M US citizens live in other countries,1.64% of the population. Tiny as that percentage is, it grew by 500% in the last decade. Yet who really thinks that, whether this percentage goes up or down, it will represent anything remotely approaching a mass exodus? It's highly fucking unlikely. The growth in the past decade surely owes more to the portablity of jobs and lifestyle choices than to politics. Now the situation has changed, yet I don't expect historians are going to refer to this period of 'mass exodus' (not just yet at least.)

Of course only a tiny percentage will even begin to follow through, and only a subset of that group will ever secure a lawyer, fill out forms, arrange an embassy interview (or whatever the steps may be.) The paperwork is the least of it; there are endless things to throw a damper on the idea. And as one who emigrated from the US, I think it's generally best when people move to a country because they want to belong there more than they want to escape where they are. It's not the same as moving from Michigan to California; its's not something as easy as trying on a new coat. Neither is it impossibly difficult, but it's a notion that should take some serious thinking before embarking on serious action.

And expecting much progress toward a move in less than a month is the dream of someone who have never sought immigrant status (to or from the U.S.) One could easily blow a month focusing on online options for immigrating to a single country, assuming one has a reasonably plausible prospect in mind before wisely turning it over to a lawyer to illuminate the process and variable timelines.

To R312-Well The fat orange crazy man is still "Fucking stupid"!!

R305 Folks have been "leaving" the US for other countries for many years. Mexico the primary destination - Puerto Vallarta, San Miguel Allende, Oaxaca, Lake Chapala/Jalisco have streets you walk down and hear only US accents. It'll be interesting to see if and how President Sheinbaum not only closes the door to US migrants but may kick out migrants who are already living there.

I personally know friends who have moved to Mexico, France (Brittany and the south), Portugal (Porto), and Ecuador (several places).

Conversation with ex-pat in Cuenca, Ecuador... "I left the US in 2020 because the Woke Dems were making the USA a shithole." Trump won, are you coming back now? "Hell no, it's still a shithole and on a US middle class income I have servants and live like a king. Why would I come back to chaos?" Did you vote for Trump in 2024? "Of course."

I left the US because Corporate Dems lost us 2016 and just kept on doing the same shit.

I should probably go to Ecuador instead. Decisions, decisions! And, as a Libra (even though I don't really believe in that shit), waffling while making decisions is just what I do.

I've been to Ecuador and it has plenty of its own problems... it's just cheaper than the US.

I am happy as a nomad, going on 4 years now. France is my favorite place so far (have been all over Latin America, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Albania, Germany) in terms of price/quality ratio. Obviously I don't mean Paris or the Cote d'Azur...but medium-sized French cities can still be pretty affordable while having all the amenities you could want. I'm a total introvert, so I couldn't care less about having an active social life with local friends. I didn't have one in the US either after the age of 30. That said, there are tons of other English speakers living here and you can find community if you want it.

We have our interview tomorrow for Mexico permanent residency visa. Fingers crossed. We loved Ajijic and the entire Chapala area. I just can't live (happily) in the US anymore. The country I grew up in , is now gone.

addendum from r319, maga extremists have already offered that shoot-to-kill is on the table ,for those trying to cross the border. Should Gregg Abbott and TX Natl guard murder migrants, MX could very well kick out US expats. I fucking hate maga

For those who say we should stay and fight.....

I am 64, and have been fighting since the ACT Up days. I'm tired of fighting and very disappointed in the American electorate. I've been dreaming of an overseas retirement for over a decade; the recent election convinced my husband that we need to go live our best lives while we can.

I'm off on an exploratory trip to northern Portugal and then Bretagne in January. Then gathering the paperwork and details to apply for either a Portuguese or French visa in May. The house would go on the market in May. Our tentative target would be to be in Europe in September in a 1-year rental.

We've already started the Marie Kondo-esque thinning of what we've acquired over living in the same house for 30 years. Even if we decided not to move, talking with each other about our wants and dreams (as well as getting rid of 30 years of stuff) are valuable exercises for our relationship.

Best of luck, R321.

If you end up with a short-list of places, I recommend a one-month rental starting with the place you think you like best. One-month is long enough to get some sense of daily life, to have some days when you are not cramming everything in but have time for some boredom and decision-making, not just ticking things off a list. I notice that a lot of Americans attack their 'scouting missions' in the style of miliary campaigns: Arrive, conquer, next. (They ask insane questions like, 'Is 6 days too long enough to visit Barcelona, Alicante, Valencia, Malaga, Ronda, and Zaragoza? If there isn't much to see, we can fit in more cities!')

OP come fly with me. Come fly with me. Come away with me. Todayyyy 🎵

How do I put myself on the international market as a “male order bride” type? Then I could have a whole household waiting to welcome me.

I’m not a TOTAL mincing prisspot sort - so I’m pretty adaptable as long as I’m assured a big, strong, faithful husband who likes cats, plus has a good job and his own detached home near a park or the ocean. (Lakes alright, too.)

PS: I can only drive automatic.

[quote] For those who say we should stay and fight.....

I’m saying the exact opposite. Please leave.

You sound like a real catch, R324.

Today I sent my papers to the Panama lawyer FedEx, and I almost had a heart attack when the counter girl told me it was [bold]$92!!![/bold] Well, I'm trying to suck up these expenses. I keep telling myself that that's why I saved this money in the first place. But it sure is hard to part with it knowing what I had to go through to save it.

Like tonight, it's supposed to go down to 36 degrees here in the Ocala National Forest. Brrrrr! But I'll set my heat at 60 and sleep with lots of clothes on and a beanie cap to keep my head warm. Maybe I can get the little dog to snuggle with me -- if I'm lucky.

Alsace-Lorraine is the homeland of my forefathers. Anyone been there?

Maybe I need to trace some distant relatives and throw myself on their mercy.

It's gorgoeus, r328. Medieval villages that were the inspiration for the little town in Beauty in the Beast. Excellent wine and a distinct regional cuisine. Well-connected by rail to France and Germany by high speed, Switzerland by regular speed. You can be in Paris in two hours. Look up Strasbourg, Colmar, and Riquewihr. Linking to a Rick Steves video. I love it there.

Panama has a huge gay scene.

R324 sounds like a real catch. Anne Romano, is that you?

What about the lesbians, R330? Where do they hang out?

Senior lesbian, are you taking your Dad with you or do you have relatives in FL to help him?

[quote]Maybe I need to trace some distant [French] relatives and throw myself on their mercy

R328: Don't bother, unless one of your parents is or was a French citizen. France is not a country that cares about your ancestry from two centuries ago.

A direct line one generation past (parent) connection is an easy in for a lot of countries. Beyond that, not many countries offer opportunities for ancestral connections.

Alsace is great. I spent a month there and would definitely return. You've got the wine route, Vosges mountains, a bustling international city in Strasbourg, cute villages, the Christmas markets, and you can easily pop over to the Black Forest in Germany or Basel, Switzerland (very pricey, but nice for a day trip).

Mostly Alsace is about the food. Choucroute with many different kinds of delicious sausages. Strasbourg is on the Rhine and you cross a bridge to get to Germany, just on the other side.

And Flammenkuche!

I was dancing at the lesbian bar. In Panama City.

Wow, R338!! I'll have to check that out while I'm there seeing the lawyer/going to the embassy. Is it still around? So many lesbian bars have closed!

BTW, just made my plane reservations. Heading out soon after Xmas.

So excited for you!

Me too!! Thanks! I'll be happy to get out of the cold weather here in central FL (went down to 37 last night!) and get into the regular summertime Florida weather in Panama City. And I'll be there for New Year's Eve/Day!

Fortunately, my hotel claims to have soundproof rooms.