I used to assume gay men were better at living.

It is truly so painfully sad.

This could be an interesting inquiry... but you need to explain what the fuck you are talking about.

Actually, I don't.

R3 Well, you don't want to, granted. But if you actually want to communicate something, you might...

OP it makes no fucking sense. Listen to R2

I can only guess the OP is saying that gay men are better at dying and uses aids to support his argument.

"What was the effect of AIDS on the culture? Which, in my opinion, was: What is culture without gay people? This is America, what is the culture? Not just New York. AIDS completely changed American culture. People always say "pop culture." As if we have some high culture to distinguish it from. The effect of AIDS was like a war in a minute country. Like, in World War I, a whole generation of Englishmen died all at once. And with AIDS, a whole generation of gay men died practically all at once, within a couple of years. And especially the ones that I knew. The first people who died of AIDS were artists. They were also the most interesting people. I know I've said this before, but the audience for the arts—whether it was for writing or films ...Or ballet. The knowing audience also died and no longer exists in a real way. So all the judgment left at the same time that all this creativity left. And it allowed people who would be fifth-rate artists to come to the front of the line. It decimated not just artists but knowledge. Knowledge of a culture. There's a huge gap in what people know, and there's no context for it anymore"

— Fran Lebowitz

That old has been hack R7

You're only supporting her argument with your cheap shot ad hominem.

What is Fran even talking about? Writing for films? Ballet? Doesn’t she really mean working in production design or something like that? I thought it was all about hairdressers and window dressers and fashion designers. Behind the scenes.

I mean, it’s a very nice thing that she said. It’s a little parochial, like most NYC talk about NYC.

When I was in my late teens and twenties in the last years of the 1970s I knew many older gay men, a number of whom were my friends much, much more than my peers and not a little more than the men 10 and 20 years older than me.

The older men I knew were not "shop bottoms" but people who worked in design, art, music, other of what are now lumped as "creative" fields. Somehow they were all curious about culture and politics and literature and film, more so than their straight male peers. It wasn't so much keeping up with one another, with their friends, but with a world of better things. It wasn't just camp and sling arch insults, not about pop culture; it wasn't a show or a competition except individually to know something of the world, not just consume it.

Fast forward 50 years, if I had to point to something that was lost it would be men like them. Now what do we have: elder gays who pine for Dynasty and Designing Women and being able to pull some good dick in a gay bar in the early 1980s in less time than it took to smoke a Benson & Hedges? Memories of shitty music? Of jeans that fit in slim waistlines?

That's the difference to me: the quality of elder gays pre- and post-AIDS and the scope of the things they knew/know.

No idea what OP is talking about.

OP is talking about what R12 is talking about.

Wat are you on about?

Is it really that AIDS killed the cool people? Or did the legalization of gay sex and marriage allow gay men to be more lazy and basic?

You got your answer, r2.

Namaste.

People seeking meaning from outside themselves are externalizing. I think the reason we used to love "unique" people is they lived for themselves. They were quirky and liked old movies and books and had nerdy interests because they recognized that true glorification must come from within. It's loving oneself completely before interacting with others, thereby taking away any power others may have over you.

For example, it means nothing to anyone else, but IMO, I'm the greatest goddamn being alive :D

I guess R7 explains our current state of politics and why Trump was able to rise to power...

Back then, R12, was when gay men were my very most favorite people. They were so much fun, I couldn't walk away from listening to them talk. I was always laughing at their wit and learning things I didn't know.

May they RIP.

OP did post a trollish sneak and now sits there pulling in the lines.

Yeah, creep. People who are dead do have a hard time living well.

Such a paragon.

I think OP means that cool gay men died and people are more basic now. I didn’t take it as trivializing anything. Maybe an unfortunate choice of words….

OP sounds like a right fucking cunt.

"being able to pull some good dick in a gay bar in the early 1980s in less time than it took to smoke a Benson & Hedges"

Gurl! Come sit next to me!!

It’s entirely possible that OP is indeed a right cunt, who knows.

Proud to deliver cunt to those who deserve it. I'm committed to delivering a high-quality result.

If all of the creative types died as you claim, OP… doesn’t that just make you the sad leftovers like the fifth-rate artists that were mentioned in your quote?

DL, are you HIGH?

I lived in NYC in the early 80s. Of course there were lots of empty-headed superficial gay people. But there was a sort of critical mass of what a friend of mine used to call "Old world gays". Gay men who had been socialized to feel that knowing about the visual arts, literature, dance, opera, and classical music was essential to a life well-lived abounded. If you read a pre-AIDS book about gay people, such as "Dancer from the Dance" , Holleran depicts a variety of gay people. Some were obsessed with fashion, the disco-scene and being laid, but others were very culturally aware men. And gay men were not only bystanders. Most of the active choreographers were gay, The opera designers and stagers were gay. There were many poets and novelists. There were a variety of composers and classical performers who were gay. Even moving into more popular realms, huge numbers of broadway actors and dancers were gay. All of these elements of high culture were decimated during the AIDS years. Single men were essential to these fields because they were unmarried, didn't have children, could take chances and live frugally while they pursued their artistic goals. While there are many more out gay people now, that link of older men encouraging younger ones to acquire knowledge about the arts was broken and has never been restored. It does take a critical mass, and we lost it in 15 short years.

It was a very expensive and painful lesson. We can only hope our younger generations don’t forget what happened, even if they can’t fully understand every nuance of that era. What worries me is how permissive things seem to be. You best hope the current drugs can buy us a good amount of time. I’m not convinced the protection they provide is permanent.

Hate mistaken for wit.

Self-indulgence masquerading as opinion.

Intemperance mistaken for vivacity.

Revulsion for new ways, new players, new types.

Allergy to joy; rage at the joy of others.

Mean crazy instead of fun "bats in the belfry" eccentricity.

Growing old and bitter like everyone else, when we used to be damned good at being dowagers in our small palaces of curiosities.

Expletives mistaken for argument.

Soap operas instead of grand operas.

The same tired themes over and over, many borrowed from the dead.

Grocery store tabloid checkout Datalounge.

And its only gotten worse as the vestigial queens of that era on DL died off...or you ran them off.

Damned right I'm a cunt. You dishonour your forbears by living like shit and treating others like shit.

Thanks, R29. You made me remember one of my gay friends (Chuck, may he RIP) who had me over for a weekend in Philly. He served me cereal for breakfast (at my request - he wanted to make me eggs, etc.) and he laid out silverware and a cloth napkin.

I've never forgotten that.

R30 it’s a coming disaster. How bad and exactly when is the only question. And if that disaster unfolds under this admin then cakes and the inability to find poppers for sale anywhere will be the least of peoples problems.

Earrings and Caftans!

Grocery store tabloid checkout Datalounge, epic.

I find it validating that I'd already blocked the posters who have given over half of the responses on this thread. Yes, it's about you.

Seems like everyone stopped reading books and thinking and got gym memberships instead.

And you, too.

And YOU too.

The world is wide enough for vapid gays and erudite gays.

The hegemony is with the former, while the latter has fled to specialities and oftentimes don't lead public lives.

Very true, R41. I've found satisfaction in forming a circle of the latter group. No need to look to the vapid gays, even if they have hegemony for now.

Sturgeon's law (or Sturgeon's revelation) is an adage stating "ninety percent of everything is crap". It was coined by Theodore Sturgeon, an American science fiction author and critic, and was inspired by his observation that, while science fiction was often derided for its low quality by critics, most work in other fields was low-quality too, and so science fiction was no different.

You bark at that moon, blocked poster! Bark! Bark!

“Mean crazy instead of fun "bats in the belfry" eccentricity.”

OP if you had started this thread with your post at r31 you would have belied your lament instead of embodying it.

"Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.) "

I used to assume gay men were better at living but puberty blockers and hormones took that away.