How old was this evil woman Abby supposed to be?

Wasn't Olivia (her oldest child) supposed be 9 or 10 years old? I think early 30s in 1980 when she started would be a safe bet. FWIW, Mills was around 40 at the time. The woman must have incredible genes because even now she looks amazing (for 84).

Abby was such a slut. And not the fun type. The type who likes chasing and throwing herself at married men until they cave. Her openly fucking Richard in season 2. There is a scene where Laura is watching Richard walk into Abby’s house to go fuck late at night, and he sees her watching him. He looks at her, they make eye contact, and he still goes into Abby’s house. I felt bad for Laura at first but then she takes him back anyway. But then again, I feel women back then felt obligated to stay with their man even if unfaithful. Especially as women were usually housewives etc. once Laura got back into work she grew more independent.

Couldn’t be me. All his shit would be waiting for him outside the house in the morning.

R2 don’t forget her consistently chasing Gary and making moves until one night he finally caved after a big argument with Val. I hated him from that moment on. Val was such a good, sweet and understanding (AND FORGIVING) wife to him. He just had an affair with his AA partners wife the previous season and Val forgave him. But I understand how him having an affair with Abby would be an even bigger punch to the stomach. Way too close to home and personal.

The scene where she confronts Abby, she should have beat her ass instead of giving her a single slap.

OP...you're not even a 2 on the Abby scale.

Abby and her shenanigans was the only reason to watch Knots. At least until Paige showed up. Then there were two.

I enjoyed Knots regardless of Abby. She did shake things up but wasn’t why I watched. She upset me more than anything.

A highlight of living in LA was meeting Donna Mills and telling her that that "6" for Paige was too generous.

OH, and she was totally gracious; and she laughed.

Abby met Olivia's father while in college, and presumably has the baby soon after. When she debuts on the show, she looks the age she is supposed to look: thirtyish.

Donna Mills is one of the sweetest individuals when meeting fans. She is old school Hollywood and appreciates those who are kind and respectful.

I agree with the posters above, I always thought she was in her early thirties when she arrived on Seaview Circle.

By the way, their street was neither a circle nor had a view of the sea.

Gotta hand it to the creators, writers, producers of Knots... Don Murray's departure could have killed that show if the new storylines for existing characters did not work out. Honestly, they had a major =, central storyline character opt-out.

But those in the creative room pivoted and pivoted well. KL sayed on the air for a total of 14 seasons.

Abby and the writers decisions and Donna Mills performance were something. And at the time, KL never received the kind of ink from the print media or minutes of fawning coverage on Entertainemtn Tonight and other programs the Dallas and Dynasty enjoyed.

R12 because it never pulled in the ratings of those two r12.

It did well though. By the later seasons actors were having to take pay cuts or fired to stay on. It wasn’t doing as well as you think.

The show went from a regular drama with self-contained episodes (the first 3 seasons) to a serialized soap opera starting at the very end of season 3.

Or fired to stay on air*

No, Knots was often the red-headed stepchild when it came to publicity for the then-ubiquitous nighttime soaps. But in the end it probably served them well to function not being under a microscope.

Lmao. R15 that’s far from true.

Back in the 90s, Detroit's channel-seven daily talk show, "Kelly & Company", would often feature a flouncy fellow named Geoffrey, who performed dubious makeovers on local fraus. When sizing up a potential victim, one of Geoffrey's pet peeves was what he termed "DME", an acronym for Donna Mills eyes. DME is caused by concealer being troweled on so heavily that the under eye area appears oddly brighter than the rest of the face. Having suffered from pronounced, not-concealable dark circles my entire life, I always coveted DME.

That was a way to hide her real age

I always figured Abby was mid-30s when she first appeared. She was introduced as Sid Fairgate's younger sister. Sid had to be close to 50. Karen was his second wife and his adult child from his first marriage showed up during the first season. There might have been 10-15 years age difference between Sid and Abby but she couldn't have been younger than 35.

In the later season (where Michael York appears as Abby's old college flame), the flashbacks show that Abby and Karen were in college together so they were very close in age. Karen had to be in her late 30's or 40 when Abby showed.

Abby is constantly referred to as a young woman in the early seasons. They always refer to her as a young single mom and Sid is protective of his little sister who is much younger than him.

We learn she met her now ex-husband in college and dropped out of college to marry him and have his kids. Shes 30ish at first. They aged her up a bit later

KL was dull melodrama before Abby came to the cul-de-sac. As if anyone gave a shit about Kenny and Ginger's fights.

Same could be said about Dynasty pre-Alexis or Melrose Place pre-Amanda.

The show was a regular drama even when she came in season 2. It changed to a soap starting with the end of season 3. Season 4 onward it was officially a soap opera.

Seasons 1-3 were dramas with self contained episodes. Halfway through season 3 they started serializing it.

I am doing a rewatch on Plex and I just watched the episode with Sid’s death, which aired in 1981z

Abby says in that episode that she was 15 when the odious Diana was born. Diana was about 17 in that episode. That makes her 32 in 1981, which means she was born in 1949.

Olivia is 16 in 1987, meaning she was born in 1971.

The show only lasted as long as it did in the early years thanks to Laura! It was a travesty when they killed her off!

R24 they killed her off at good timing. She was around a good amount of time and the actress was ready to leave.

R23 32 is early 30s, like some of us said numerous times.

The early seasons of Knots had too many wishy-washy, soft women. Valene, Laura, and Ginger were all basically the same character -- put upon, long-suffering in troubled marriages, vaguely unfulfilled and rarely speaking up for themselves. Karen was a noisome yenta, and then Abby showed up with drive and a spine. Odd also that even though the show started (ostensibly) in 1980, none of the lead women had a particular strong career or held a job with any passion. Karen would save the whales as a volunteer, and Valene sat at home being scandalized by the goings-on of her neighbors. Laura and Ginger had pointless, erstwhile jobs (realtor and kindergarten teacher respectively). In 1980, my mom was a high level regional executive at an international company, and our neighbor mom was a loan manager at a major bank chain. WTF?

R26 spoken like someone not alive then.

It started in 1979 and a lot of women were still very submissive to their husbands then. They were all HOUSEWIVES, all minus Karen. As stated upthread, as they started working etc. they grew more independent and grew a backbone.

These were not young liberal women of the 80s. They were all already in their mid-late 30s in 1979, all but Ginger, who was raised with traditional values.

None of the characters felt the same though.

[quote]r17 One of [Detroit's channel-seven’s] Geoffrey's pet peeves was what he termed "DME", an acronym for Donna Mills eyes.

Sacrilege!

Another professional’s opinion:

If any '80s soap was the redheaded stepchild, it was Flamingo Road. Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

Sorry, hon. I enjoyed "Flamingo Road" but that was stillborn.

Knots Landing was a direct spinoff of Dallas, a #1 show. It was never not heavily promoted. It was promoted but most weren’t into it like they were the others. They didn’t tune in the way they did for its parent Dallas or competitor Dynasty.

The 80s had tons of night soaps that didn’t last more than one season, if even that, so to call this the stepchild is silly. It was the younger sibling of Dallas, though. Networks are all about ratings because the more viewers the more they make from promoters.

Knots only had one season finish in the Top 10, season 6, which finished at #9. Season 5 finished at #11. After that it fell more and more each season.

R32- It ultimately worked to Knots’s benefit that it didn’t have the white hot success that Dallas and Dynasty did for a few seasons. Knots was a quiet and consistent performer for the network and became a critical darling. The real ones knew how KL’s acting and writing was a cut above its nighttime soap peers. A 14 year run is nothing to sneeze at, especially back in the day when there were only 3-4 networks and programming was so competitive.

"All right, which one of you bitches farted? I told you not to have the three bean salad!"

R21, Dynasty certainly took off the minute Joan took the veil off and was questioned by Brian Dennehy.

But the first season was quite good. In fact, Lee Daniels was a big fan of Dynasty.

Dynasty was a competitor to Dallas and Knots, not a part of their family.

Part of why Dallas and Dynasty were better received than Knots with the public was because they were bigger, more extravagant, more rich and elegant. Everything with those was larger. The drama was larger. The houses were larger. The clothing more expensive. The acting more over the top. It was true escapism into a world most never could live. Knots was more grounded and middle class for its first few seasons. That didn’t grab viewers in the 80s the way super rich and bitchy did. The 80s was the decade where MORE MORE MORE was “in”. Bigger was better. Greed was becoming normal. Everyone wanted bigger houses and nicer cars and luxurious clothing. Knots didn’t have that for a while. That’s why around season 4 they started adding more elegance to it, giving Gary his inheritance of $10 million (now a rich man lived within the area), having Richard open that restaurant that became the go-to upper class restaurant (now they had a high end restaurant as a regular spot for scenes) in town, and all the scenes in the studio, watching CiJi record her album etc.

You also saw styles change from regular jeans and a button down or shorts and a tshirt to dresses and gowns. In season 4 even Ginger is now wearing beautiful dresses and a fur coat. Ginger was never a confrontational character and always kept to herself but now she’s storming into Gary and Abby’s beautiful house, confronting them and showing no fear to Abby. I use that as an example of the writers realizing they needed to drop the middle class ways of Knots and make it “richer” and “bigger” in all ways to do well, and they changed all that in season 4 for the better.

Season 1 finished the year at #30, season 2 finished the year at #28, but then season 3 finished the season at #43. It fell drastically and didn’t even make the top 40. They knew changes had to be made or the show wouldn’t last long. They upped the drama and sets etc. for season 4, made the clothing more appealing, made the characters more dramatic, and season 4 jumped up in ratings. They finished the year at #20. Season 5 finished at #11, Season 6 finished at #9 (their peak) and then it fell down after, but remained in the Top 40 up until season 12.

R36...and Dynasty of course did better after the inspired casting of Karen Cellini.

HAD NO FUCKING IDEA that Mills was 40 when she started on this show. Holy cow. I figured she was 30.

She has always looked good- prior to any surgery, ect- Hard to believe this lovely dame is 84 (or almost 84!!)

She looked 40 by season 4. Idk why people lie

Dynasty and Dallas was all about very rich people and Knot's Landing was about business class people in the burbs.

D and D had wide appeal while Knot's was very much a "Frau" show...working class/middle class women watched all three but Knot's had a special place in their heart because it was more relateable to them since it was closer to who they were or aspired to be.

I worked with a bunch of Midwestern, working class/middle class gals in the late 80s and they would chatter about Dynasty and Dallas to a certain degree but they would get the most excited about discussing the latest episode of Knot's Landing. They LOVED Karen!

I'd just smile and nod...Dynasty was on its last legs and Dallas and Knot's were Grandma shows to me.

R39? Really? I had no idea she was so old. I knew Donna was now old, but never made the connection that she was 40 when she started on Knots. That blew me away

R40 what year was this? Dynasty was on its last legs? The show started in AFTER Dallas and Knots

Donna Mills may have looked like she was 38 but she was a hot 38 and she had that exact same look for 35 years so good for her!

R43- YES!!!!!!

r42 I said LATE 80s so 88/89...Dynasty did start after Dallas and Knot's Landing but it also flamed out before those two shows ended.

Donna mills looked like a modern 40.

Remember that Lou grant and the skipper were in their 40s. Aging has gotten a bit slower.

R46 Not really. People are always trying to make that ridiculous claim then compare beefy character actors with leading men types to prove their claim. Ed Asner and Alan Hale looked "mature" when they were 20...and, there are Ed Asner and Alan Hale types today but they have a harder time establishing acting careers now because everyone is supposed to be young, thin, and gorgeous looking. Hollywood will cast a hot young actor to play a fat old character and cover them in latex instead of just hiring a fat older actor in the first place.

And, the only thing radically different today is hair styles and clothes. People over 40 still have "youthful" haircuts and styles and wear t shirts/jeans/kids clothes where in the past, no one over 30 would dress like a kid.

Oh, and people are now aware of sun damage and skin care so more people take better care of their skin. And, less smoking/ boozing. That's why all those film stars of the 30s/40s/50s aged so poorly....they barbecued their skin, smoked like chimneys and drank like fish.

People did look more mature back then and were more mature.

Yeah...I think I covered that....mature hair/clothes. We take a bit more care of ourselves now. But, if you're trying to infer that PHYSICALLY we've physically evolved in the last 40 years, no. That's not true at all. There are "Ed Asners" and "Vivian Vances" all over the country today....we just don't put them on TV anymore because everyone has to "look" 25 and weigh 88 lbs.

R46 - I was astonished to read a few years back that Archie, Edith, Maude, and Walter were all supposed to be mid/late 40s. Holy shit. They looked ready for a retirement home.

[quote]R48 People did look more mature back then and were more mature.

Yes. They were so much more mature they died earlier.

And their surviving clothes in museums are smaller/shorter.

Part of why season 3 dropped so hard in the ratings was because of Don Murray’s characters death in the premiere. James Houghton said it was actually shocking to the cast and everyone who worked on the show how angry some fans were, writing in consistently in rage or hurt over beloved Sid being killed off. He said little did they know he was killed off because Don wanted off the show, not simply to kill off a beloved character. They got a lot of hate that season for Sid’s death, especially because at the time it went against the norm for tv. The star goes over the cliff but they always survive. Him actually dying was so upsetting to them. And unlike now, where we have the internet with spoilers etc. back then you found out live while watching.

[quote]R52 little did viewers know he was killed off because Don wanted off the show

What was he so unhappy about?

I mean, he went on to do Bo Derek movies.

He was making movies before Knots. Not like he was a young unknown.

Pay r53. He was in a pay dispute and they wouldn’t budge so he quit.

[quote]R54 He was in a pay dispute and they wouldn’t budge so he quit.

Oh. Well, that makes sense. If the network was being cheap then they can fuck right off!

He was kind of the Suzanne Somers of his time.

I liked Mac a lot better than Sid.

Sid’s death freed up Karen to become a businesswoman, and allowed Abby to lean into her amorality.

Don Murray, who later publicly said it was a terrible business decision, quit the show over money but also because he thought his waning stardom was on the rise again. He had just done Endless Love and, I guess, thought it was going to be a monster hit. Back in 1979 when he was hired for the show, he still had a recognizable name but his career had been in long-decline. Recent work prior to the show included "Conquest of the Planet of the Apes" and a slew of TV movies.

However, it wasn't total career suicide (like what happened to Somers). He continued to do modest roles in A or B movies and even tried at soap gold again with the failed melodrama "Sons and Daughters" with Lucie Arnaz of all people.

Like what happened to Somers? Somers got herself fired and blacklisted for a while. He quit. He wasn’t fired.

I’m surprised he could get out of a TV series contract after only 2 years. Usually they’re for longer, because the network wants to avoid exactly that sort of circumstance.

[quote]r60 Like what happened to Somers? Somers got herself fired and blacklisted for a while. He quit. He wasn’t fired.

But it was still a case of a performer overestimating their worth. He felt he was underpaid, bailed, then found out he wasn’t quite as hot as he thought, out there on his own.

R62 wtf are you even talking about? 😂 Knots wasn’t his big break. Jesus.

He negotiated more money, they said no, he quit, they let him out of contract. The end. He handled it all professionally. He didn’t not show up to work and stall production, costing them to lose tons of money and screwing over his costars. That’s what Somers did. He simply asked for more money. People in jobs do it all the time. Have you never worked?

He did go on to do the TV movie QUARTERBACK PRINCESS, playing the young Helen Hunt’s dad. And he might not have been available for that if still on KNOTS LANDING… so I guess it was all worth it.

Actresses lie about their ages all the time. Donna has claimed in the past to have been born in 1942, 1943, 1946. She looks ten years younger than her actual age, even now. She played a RUNAWAY Teen on an old ep of the FBI (co-starring Michael Douglas) in 1971, lol.

If Abby said she was '15' when Diana was born, and it was determined Diana was born in 1971, then Abby really aged in seven years...

Michael York joined the cast as Abby's 'old flame' Charles Scott in the 1987-88 season, and a lot was revealed about the history between Abby and Karen, and how Karen met her brother Sid.

IIRC, when she and Karen were reminiscing in one episode (after Charles never showed up for a dinner with Abby), it was said that he did this years ago, too. He was her college sweetheart and Karen and Abby were college 'best' friends. Something was said about when Abby went on her first date with Charles, she wanted Karen to join them on a double date. Karen didn't have a boyfriend, so Abby asked her older brother Sid to be Karen's date that night, and Karen and Sid hit it off (it was a blind date). Karen and Sid fell in love and married, but Abby and Charles never married because he moved back to England without ever telling her. (I believe it was this episode where Abby said she and Charles were both English Lit majors, which is how they met in college; or it may have been a future episode when he returned for his story arc).

So Karen and Abby were the same age if they went to college together. Sid was older than both of them. Charles Scott was the same age, as well.

That same season, Steve Shaw who played Karen's eldest son Eric left home to go to start a new job after college (he left the series, but came back for a few episodes in later seasons with his new wife 'Linda'). He had to be at least 22 to be 'starting his career'.

So Karen had to be in her mid-40s by then as well as Abby.

Like many other inconsistencies in television shows ("I Love Lucy", "Golden Girls", "Rhoda", "Bewitched"), I think the writers (probably mostly new writers who joined), didn't pay attention to details of what was said in earlier seasons.

Diana was born in 1964 r66, she was out of high school in season 4 when she met Chip. Olivia was born 1971, she was 16 in 1987 when Gary and Abby gave her a car (which she crashed on drugs).

Eric was born in 1965/66.

R66 it was already established that they aged Abby up in later seasons. Even night soaps would change a characters age etc. I mean, Karen’s kids were all allowed to grow up and we watched them grow up (and played by the same actors) while they always kept Richard and Laura’s son very young and kept recasting him to keep him a young kid, FOR YEARS.

Yes. Diana was born in 1964. She’s already out of high school by the end of season 4.

R64 - Just a couple of years earlier, Hunt did an episode of KL as one of Diana's annoying friends. It was a minor part (maybe u/5), and then the star of this TV movie. Poor Don. He did seem like a decent enough guy.

R68 That was quite an 'age up' in seven years - she aged about 15 years if she jumped from early 30s to mid 40s from 1980 to 1987.

R71 welcome to soaps. They loved doing that shit.

I actually hated when soaps would take a child and make them a teen overnight. GH did that with the Spencer character. Of course it was a change that worked because they struck gold with NAC.

Poor Don? He left. He wanted out. They let him. What’s “poor” about that?

R5 Fuck you! I'm Polyanna!

LOL I think the college scene for Karen and Abby was late 60's, so they de-aged Michele Lee's character. Abby mentioned being 32 when she originally appeared. The fact the Diana character was written off FOR YEARS tells me it was Michele Lee who wanted not to be reminded she had a daughter that age. Same with Joan Van Ark not wanting Charlene Tilton to guest star as Lucy. Val and Karen did not wanna be grannies.

No one liked Lucy.

Michele Lee claimed in Soap Opera Digest that she kept asking the producers to bring back Diana and they refused until the last season….

They didn’t want her back BECAUSE DIANA WAS AN ASSHOLE. I bet she started saying that when the writers started having Olivia act out and she saw how that gave Donna Mills meaty material while Karen was stretching out a sweater with Val.

[quote]R73 Poor Don? He left. He wanted out. They let him. What’s “poor” about that?

The “poor Don” thing is his career failed to ignite… now for a second time. He burned the KNOTS LANDING bridges in order to do bigger projects… yet ended up with cheapie guest slots on HOTEL and WINGS.

If nothing else the cut in pay must have been sobering.

He already had a career. He wasn’t a young man. You seem out of touch with reality

[quote]r79 He already had a career.

Now, you’re right about that!

[italic]IMDb: Don Murray was an American actor, possibly best known for playing Governor Breck, the authoritarian ruler in the science fiction film ‘Conquest of the Planet of the Apes’ (1972)

R80 wouldn’t that just prove he was a working actor before Knots? I’m confused.

I was 103 when Falcon Crest started.

They should have done a Falcon Crest/Knots Landing crossover storyline.

A cunt off between Angela and Abby would have been epic.

Don Murray was one of those stars who only made it so far up the ladder of success. He had a great debut with Bus Stop then continued with some decent films and snagged the juicy "gay senator" role in Advise & Consent in 62 which might have actually hurt his career despite the film being a hit. By 68 he's doing an unsuccessful TV series then it's minor films and TV guest roles until he got Knot's Landing in 79.

He got too cocky, probably because he and Michele Lee were the only "names" in the KL cast. He didn't realize that names aren't that important in soaps; it's all about the characters and does the audience love them or love to hate them.

He played ambiguously closeted or maybe just insecure in his masculinity in Happy Birthday Wanda June.

He didn’t get cocky. Jesus. EVERY SINGLE CAST MEMBER who worked on Knots with him spoke highly of him. All of them. James Houghton said Don was very quiet and kind. A very classy guy and always respectful. The issue with him was he wasn’t use to the way starring on a series worked, how it was filmed and the hours they had to put into it. Doing films takes a lot of hours a day but a lot of those hours is you sitting around to film. That isn’t the case with tv. Tons of endless rehearsals, fittings, blocking etc before the actual filming itself. They would work 7 days a week sometimes. Don Murray didn’t feel the pay was enough to give you so much time to star on the show so he asked for more pay so he felt it was worth it. They said no so he left. It was that simple.

Wasn’t used* to

[quote]R81 wouldn’t that just prove he was a working actor before Knots?

They were all working actors with careers before Knots Landing. Donna Mills had been directed by Clint Eastwood, William Devane by Alfred Hitchcock, Michelle Lee had done Broadway and had her own short lived TV show.

The point is they were all B Level performers who’d be foolish to think they could do better at that stage of their middle age careers.

Somehow Don Murray thought he was the exception. But he would learn.

They died Karen’s hair black in the first few seasons and it made her look older than she was.

In season four her hair is brown and she looks 10 years younger.

My late grandmother insisted Michelle Lee was part Chinese. It didn't help that her nextdoor neighbors, originally from Hong Kong, were Chinese and also named Lee.

In the very first ep of KL Karen Allen at age 29 played Sid's teenage daughter who was hell on wheels, seducing Kenny, leading Diana astray etc. They never spoke of her again, though she could have been a great foil for Karen Fairgate. Of course the fact that Karen Allen got Raiders of the Lost Ark could have had a lot to do with!

Lucille Bluth takes on Abby Cunningham:

Karen Allen footage in this pilot recap

Don Murray was well aware of how TV worked...he had already starred in his own Western series, The Outcasts in 68/69. It only ran one season.

R94 the episode is available to watch. It’s not unknown who played his daughter from his previous marriage

R95 yes. That was different from primetime soaps, which were getting rewrites on the whim etc.

Is the aggressive Don “Chrissy Snow 1982” Murray defender the ghost of Hope Lange?

These are demonic eyes! Sheesh

Why did the Lange-Murrays break up?

Later she was linked to Glenn Ford, who insisted she be in POCKETFUL OF MIRACLES opposite him even though she’s about the last lady you’d cast as a gangster’s moll.

Bette Davis was furious when Ford insisted Lange have the dressing room trailer next to his on the set, instead of her. Davis felt usurped!

R97 And, you know this because you were on the set of Knot's Landing?

Most TV shows are well run machines, especially intricately plotted dramas...for the most part, they don't have constant rewrites.

And, being on a large ensemble show with multiple storylines going on is one of the cushier TV jobs. Unless your character is heavily featured in a specific episode, you have a relatively stress free work week. The ones who have it rough are the ones who star in hour long dramas and they're the main character or it's a show focused on a very small cast. If you're The Bionic Woman or Mannix, then you're going to have 12 hour days every day because you're in most every scene.

Murray's previous show, The Outcasts, was a two hander with him as the dominant lead...it would have been a much tougher schedule than being one of three storylines on an ensemble soapy drama with a dozen characters.

Some trivia...

When 'Knots Landing' wrapped in early 1993, ALW asked Michelle Lee if she would be interested in launching his musical 'Sunset Boulevard' later that year in LA (his first choice, Shirley MacLaine had already said 'no'). He told Lee that her fanbase from 'Knots' would flock to see her in the musical, and it would be a hit. Lee didn't want to jump into rehearsals and doing eight shows a week so soon after her fourteen years working on Knots, so she said 'no'...but told him she would be interested in Broadway somewhere down the line. (He then went with Glenn Close).

Jump to a year later, and Michele Lee was one of the actresses auditioning for the role when it was announced Glenn Close was leaving to open on Broadway. In her memoir, Diahann Carroll remembered sitting with her and referred to her as her friend from the early days when they both were first starting out. Carroll said Lee was one of the finalists, and said Lee was shocked when she lost to Dunaway.

More proof that ALW is an idiot.

[quote]r102 Lee was shocked when she lost to Dunaway.

Another CAPRICIOUS comment from a CAPRICIOUS woman.

PS: She can fuck RIGHT off!

I should make clear that my 'more proof ALW is an idiot' statement also refers to his alleged original offering of Norma to Lee...she's totally wrong for the role. Her career was made up of "Earnest Nice Ingenue" then "Determined Haus Frau" and there's never been any indication in her screen persona or physicality that she's right to play operatic/nutty Norma Desmond. I mean, is she even right for it vocally?

Maybe Lee is more talented than you think ?

Lee was surprisingly good in that Jaqueline Susann bio.

I’m clearly in the minority here: I preferred the earlier seasons. It had a 70s feel. More realistic and down to earth in that era. I despised most of the 1980s and its excesses.

Did anyone else notice ALW didn’t offer the role of Max to Don Murray?

R90 - Isn't that the other way around? Lee had pitch black hair for just about all her career previously to KL. At most, they may have dyed it for slight, initial graying (she was 37 when the show started). Her hair lightened (and straightened) as time went by.

I should add that Carroll believed (and she said Lee agreed with her) that the only reason ALW passed on Lee the following year was as 'retaliation' to her for refusing his original offer to open the show. She also believed he passed on Carroll for the role because of race (though, she was cast in the Canadian production the following year, under a different production company - all thanks to the piano player who assisted her during the LA rehearsals).

ALW should have cast Lee in the Broadway show in 1996 when Buckley left - it was just a couple of years after 'KL' ended, and again...she would've packed the theater with those 'midwest tourists'. It would be a few more years before Lee would return to B'way in the comedy (non-musical) 'Tales of the Allergist's Wife'.

I don’t think I am correctly articulating my point, r110. The color of her hair is very harsh in the early years of the show (Season 3, in particular).

It makes her look aged, like she’s several years older than Val/Abby/Laura.

Well, wasn't she, R112?

R113. Joan's never met a scalpel she didn't like.

53 yrs old

Jewish-Chinese hair can be problematic.

Donna her name is Donna. No, not Donna Summer. Donna Mills.