Michael Jackson was a virgin at 35 when dating Lisa Marie Presley

Oh, we’re pretending he wasn’t a paedophile again are we?

These sordid celebrities all cover for each other.

Jane Fonda said she skinny dipped with him in 1980 and it was his idea.

I think Lisa Marie must have been on the hook ($) to make claims like this, because she kept it up even after MJ died. But I don't for a second believe they had sex or a real marriage, nor do I believe the various rumors about her trying to "win him back" following the demise of their marriage. A lot of that was her checking off boxes to collect on whatever support money it hinged on, or similar.

Of course he was. He wasn't interested in women...he wanted little boys

Madonna and Michael Jackson almost fucked?

M&M: both August 1958 babies

The Madonna story is another rumor. She went with him to the Oscars and it was for the shock value and publicity. I think she was coy about what happened outside of that, but it was again for the publicity and speculation that generated. By all accounts MJ didn't really like Madonna. But that didn't stop him from using these purely platonic episodes to help smokescreen his reality. He did the same in claiming he dated Brooke Shields around the time of the 1993 Oprah interview, but she later revealed that she had no idea what he was talking about.

I believe it. I believe that Michael developed a Fearful Avoidant attachment style. I think because he had to endure watching all of the groupie action on tour with his older brothers when he was a child, he found heterosexual sex to be quite lurid and ugly and terrifying. He grew up to be very afraid of women, their sexuality, and their vagines. I can also believe that he thought he had found a kindred spirit in Lisa Marie, who always seemed stunted to me back then. Like she was in her mid 20s but she acted like a petulant teenager. I can believe that somehow he was able let his guard down. I think it was the only time in his life he actually might have opened his heart up to a woman. But the fearful avoidant in him would cut and run at any and every chance. He was always disappearing on her for days or weeks at a time. When Jackson performed at the 1995 MTV awards, arguably just about the best live performance of his entire career, Lisa Marie hadn't seen nor heard from him for six weeks. Yet she received a message to show up at the awards and play wifey. You can see the hot flushed scowl on her face every time they cut to her. She was PISSED. That all felt extremely real to me.

I think after he and Lisa broke up he swore off of females forever. I mean, obviously Debbie and he were not fucking. He used her uterus. If Michael really had merely only wanted to fool the world that he was a mature heterosexual man to manipulate public perception, I feel like he would have staged more photo ops of him making out with beautiful women both before and after Lisa.

I can also believe that Michael's very wounded damaged inner child sought camaraderie -- and perhaps more -- with the young boys. Many things can be true simultaneously.

Jackson told Rabbi Shmuley that his dream woman was Princess Di. That's what allows me to believe that he did have some heterosexual bent. He was consumed and tortured by his Madonna/Whore dilemma. He sought purity, safety and morality above all. He wanted a saint for a bride. Obviously most women in his dating pool did not pass the Princess Di sniff test. How Lisa passed I will never understand. She had a mouth like a truck driver. I guess she placated him by doing charity work with him? And she was a mother. But Lisa was average. She was not some highly evolved being, and I believe that Michael called her bluff fairly quickly. Michael was a lot of fucked up things, but he was a humanitarian and a visionary. Lisa Marie was just a nepo kid. Where his posse of Lost Boys fit into his sexuality, I go back and forth constantly on that.

R10 he was a pedophile.

I can believe that MJ and Lisa Marie had some sort of meaningful connection. I can also believe he is a pedo.

I believe he was a "heterosexual virgin". She was his first and last woman/female.

Does anyone think Jackson knew, from a lucid, sane place inside of himself, that he was a pedophile? I reckon that there are some folks that straight up know that they are pedophiles and are cool with it (sociopaths), others that know and feel intense shame (the most sane kind), and others that rationalize and deny that that's what is going on and cannot even relate to the concept of being a pedophile (very tragic and fucked up people). I wonder where Jackson fell on that spectrum. Did he feel shame around it? Was he in denial? Did he ever even attempt to get help for it after the 2005 trial? I mean, it ruined his entire life. How often do you see such a public life ruination as his? It was so bad.

Who the fuck cares? This guy's been dead -- how long?

I believe her. Michael was always saving himself Ms. Right. RIP to this beautiful soul.

R10, straight men list after Playboy Playmates not Princess Di

Michael liked little boys

Well, I am sure that he was a virgin with adults. However, there is MORE than ample evidence that he had plenty of experience with... Let's call them very vulnerable people with greedy parents.

The whole Jehovah's Witness thing fucked Michael up terribly. He put his mother on a pedestal when she was the one that could have protected those kids from their terrifyingly abusive father, and she did nothing. But in his child brain he cordoned off an area for his beloved mother, and made her into a saint. Then Michael chose a sanitized de-sexualized Lady Madonna virginesque Diana as his romantic ideal, because only someone as saintly as his mother would ever do.

All his childhood, Michael heard the women his brothers and his father were all fucking in plain view in front of Michael in hotel rooms when he six years old, referred to as devils and whores. So he was a twisted mass of neurotic fear by the time he hit puberty. Michael probably hated himself for having pesky sexual urges. I suppose he was less conflicted about discharging those urges with innocent young boys than with a scary woman and her scary sawtoothed devil vagina that would no doubt swallow him whole and shit him out straight to hell.

The Jehovah's Witness religion fucked up Prince pretty badly too, but Prince had WAYYYYY more (and legal) fun before he eventually succumbed to guilt and shame and became a bible thumping repenter.

Many people heard and/or saw their family members having sex. You think everyone had their own wing in a mcmansion? You think Halfpint didn't hear Ma & Pa fucking?

Michael was saving himself for the ultimate: a blonde Princess.

The interviews of her trying to normalize him and their relationship are hilarious.

She was definitely getting paid and receiving some sort of alimony from him.

Let my brother rest in peace. I'd rather talk about Kamala Harris, who suddenly turned black.

<- But Damita Jo- isn't your son white?

Pedo is not about sexuality. He may have been into women because being a pedo is about power, control. Most pedos like both genders. I think he was gay.

He only hated Madonna because she tried to get to out of the closet and because she beat him for some “Best of the 80s” awards where he cried and called her a heifer. He was fine with her in the 80s before that, and seemed fine going to the Oscars in 1991 with her. This was, even according to Madonna, her rage era (after losing Sean and America flipping out over LAP and EY vids) and she admits to being very crude during this time. Delicate boy ass eating MJ needed a fainting couch.

He was weird as fuck. No one more narcissistic and vulgar than MJ.

Why would anyone believes anything MJ said? He tried to pass off those first 2 kids as his - and you can visually see that they are not.

Normal grown men don't have kids sleep over at their house.

And Lisa Marie knew it was a stunt - she was in on it.

What a bunch of bullshit.

[quote]M&M: both August 1958 babies

And Prince was born in June 1958.

Something about that summer...

R26 also, Madonna, MJ, and Prince are all from the Midwest -- Michigan, Indiana, and Minnesota, respectively.

Michael Jackson never touched a pussy in his entire life. He was not interested in adult women or adult men.

He was a pedophile who fucked little boys. The end.

The staff at Neverland all said the only overnight guests Michael Jackson ever had in his bedroom were little boys. They never saw him with a woman or a grown man.

Michael Jackson had a threesome with Liz Taylor and Bette Davis!

He fucked Katharine Hepburn too!

A grown man does not pose with a young boy for a photo like this. It looks like an engagement photo FFS.

This is extremely abnormal.

In retrospect, it's amazing what he got away with. He was hiding in plain sight. The public was blinded by his fame and was more naive about the behaviors of pedophiles back then, I suppose.

If a male celebrity carried on with young boys today the way MJ did back then, I think the public would be much more aware and suspicious. Times are different now.

[quote] straight men list after Playboy Playmates not Princess Di

Very true. They like strippers, porn stars and OnlyFans whores.

[quote]Normal grown men don't have kids sleep over at their house.

I've always put it this way - let's say there's a 40 year old man who lives on your street. This man invites all the little boys in the neighborhood over to his house for a sleepover. The parents of all those boys would be calling the cops in two seconds. Michael Jackson was no different than a neighborhood child molester, it was just on a very grand scale and he had a ton of people covering for him and making excuses.

I’m shocked he was so adored. His music really fizzled out after Thriller. He looked and acted like a fucking freak. WTF made people so enamored with him? I really loathed his voice. Bad is one of the worst songs ever. The lyrics are cringe even for 80s cheese.

[quote]I really loathed his voice.

I remember my grandmother really hated the hiccup-ing thing the did when he sang.

OP, this came out a decade ago and isn't the least bit surprising. He was probably a virgin when he died as well.

Meaning a virgin with women, of course. Or adult men.

r35 He couldn't have a career now, even ignoring the accusations. He was really a "you had to be there" act. I did like some of his songs like "you are not alone", "human nature", etc.

I think I've actually seen you explain it like that before on DL, R34 and it certainly put it into perspective for me then. You are 100%. correct. That sort of shenanigans would not fly in any neighborhood on earth. With Michael Jackson you can kind of almost get it because 1. it was a different era; 2. he acted innocent and childlike, like he was the messiah for children everywhere. He had busloads of low-income and cancer kids coming to Neverland and he seemed passionate about the welfare of children (we didn't start understanding "grooming" until later); and 3. MJ would romance the entire family and offer them perks and time at Neverland. So the kid might be having a "sleepover" but the parents often on the grounds, thinking they just lucked out and got the night off.

But Bieber and Usher's parents? They offered their kids up to Diddy, too, and he wasn't even hiding behind a Peter pan facade. He was clearly a thug who was glorifying misogyny, partying, gangster culture and the playa life. What did those parents think, that Diddy was taking CPR classes and baking cookies? Getting his Mary Poppins on? That shit is INSANE. It's extreme parental neglect. Criminal all the way around.

There is no way in hell he ever got anywhere near Lisa Marie’s pussy. He had zero sexual interest in anything other than prepubescent boys.

Michael was a "PEDO" as everyone on this knows, and Lisa Marie was "Fucking stupid white trash"

He was nowhere near her "stretched out used up Pussy"

I have no idea how MJ got as huge as he did. His output post Thriller was pretty poor. He looked and acted like a freak show. His sales did decline substantially, but he was made into almost this mythical creature. Well before the end his appearance and behavior were ghastly. His musical output long gone. Yet, so many act like he was a once in a lifetime talent. Talented, yes. But I question how much he wrote his songs, his voice was ehhh, and his dancing never evolved.

Off the Wall and Thriller were his only good albums. Man In the Mirror and I Just Can't Stop Loving You were the only good songs on Bad. The rest of the album sucked. The album he released in the early 90s (can't remember the title) was atrocious. By the early 90s he had become a freak show and then the child molestation scandal happened.

He released the Invincible album in 2001 but does anyone even remember it? I can't remember even one song off of that.

R43 Nope. He rode Thriller the rest of his career.

Who knew.

He gave those boys Jesus Juice, Jackson was no innocent he was a predator.

[quote] Jackson told Rabbi Shmuley that his dream woman was Princess Di.

Yes: in response to the question, "Whom would you most like to be?"

I vaguely remember Madonna in the early 90s trying to pivot MJ toward an age appropriate gay lifestyle. She dished somewhere that she had mockingly told him to let her flaming queen backup dancers Luis and (?) give him a makeover. And she didn’t just mean attire, she meant identity.

Does anybody else remember the Datalounge poster who knew a LOT about Jackson (or seemed to) and spilled some gossip? This was way back around 2002-2003 or so. The saddest and most believable tea (who knows what’s true but it sounded believable) was that MJ and Rockwell from the Berry Gordy family were into each other and having a thing but their families ordered them to cease. And that was the last time MJ seemed to be erotically attracted to a peer (an adult). It was all kiddie boys after that.

The same poster had some squeamish details about what MJ did with his child victims and what the housekeepers knew based on what they often found while cleaning.

R43, I disagree about Bad. “Smooth Criminal” and “The Way You Make Me Feel” were also really good songs.

And “You Are Not Alone” was a staple slow song at my high school dances in the 90s.

Why did Lisa have her ex brother-in-law and his wife as the only attendees at her wedding to MJ?

They must have been desperate to get MJ as a Scientologist, but that seems like a backstabbing move for the brother-in-law and his wife to do that to her first husband.

I hated his voice. His vocal ticks were so annoying. His voice was whiny so his ballads chafed me.

R42 R43 R44 You all type SO OLD. It gives me no pleasure to defend the deeply sick Michael Jackson to a bunch of out-of-touch ancient gays, but I do have to correct some of this cranky nursing home banter. Just because you weren't paying attention, it doesn't mean you are right.

"His dancing never evolved" - absolute horseshit. As a kid Michael Jackson was influenced by James Brown. By1979 during the Off The Wall era, Michael dropped that style of dancing and was just grooving from side to side. Then in 1982 obviously dancing became his hallmark. The Moonwalk, the Thriller dance, the Beat It outro dance, the Billie Jean stuff, the hat work...all of the classic moves we associate with MJ emerged here. However, he kept evolving and experimenting. He kept leaning into the Bob Fosse stuff. In 1987 we got the Smooth Criminal video which debuted Jackson's Anti-Gravity Lean, which took the world by storm (don't shoot the messenger).

Then during the Dangerous era, with the help of Travis Panye, Jackson evolved an entirely new vocabulary of moves that were influenced by Gene Kelly and a lot of 1940s gangster films. He also debuted, in 1995, a new extended Billie Jean sequence in live performances in which he did not just a twice-as-long moonwalk, but a whole new section where it's just bass and drums and he starts popping and locking like a robot. He continued to evolve new vocabularies of dance and in particular he kept adding to the Billie Jean choreography into the 2000s.

r52 Invincible didn't do much, nobody really remembers it. Of course it was released just after 9/11 so that had something to do with it.

I remember during the Dangerous era people were talking more about his freakish appearance and lifestyle and wondering why the fuck he was attached at the hip to Macaulay Culkin instead of the actual album itself.

[quote]It gives me no pleasure to defend the deeply sick Michael Jackson to a bunch of out-of-touch ancient gays, but I do have to correct some of this cranky nursing home banter. Just because you weren't paying attention, it doesn't mean you are right.

Sweetheart if you're old enough to remember Michael Jackson at the height of his fame then you're also an "ancient gay."

Not that they come close to the popularity of Michael Jackson but Adele is an example of an artist who has been able to ride the wave of one huge album. “25” and “30” were shit but sold due to the success of “21”.

Lauryn Hill is another example that resembles Michael Jackson in that she had one big album and is this mythical God amongst the black music community even though she’s an insecure egomaniac afraid to release a shit album that doesn’t hold up to “Miseducation”.

I honestly think ….

Because of the way Black Americans were treated in the United States, they really put successful black people on a pedestal as a way to validate their belonging or success in the US.

That’s why black figures such as MJ, Oprah, and Beyoncé are deemed close to “royalty” status. That’s why the whole Bill Cosby situation was so divisive because some black people just couldn’t handle such an iconic black American figure who’s image set an example of how to be a black American end up being a rapist thrown in prison. And I think the same situation for OJ. Even though OJ, Cosby, and MJ have had a reputation for not liking their own.

And I think this goes all the way back to the early 1920s with blues artists. The Empress of Blues - Bessie Smith! Black entertainers have always been seen as leaders in the black community because they’ve always been the most wealthiest black group in the US.

Being a rapper or singer in the US to the poor black community IS a believable gateway to money and success.

And so that’s why I think Michael Jackson has been put on a pedestal.

I feel like this post is all over the place but it’s midnight and I’m tired and I hope it make sense to someone.

In interviews, LMP always said that she loved MJ and that his star quality reminded her of Elvis, her dad. Maybe she's a great actress, but I do believe she was in love with MJ. She had been the breadwinner in all of her relationships and maybe it was nice to be with someone who had money.

Diane Sawyer was kind of an asshole here.

But here’s Lisa Marie explaining her relationship.

He was only a virgin because all the little boys he raped were prepubescents and unable to get erections otherwise he would have had them fuck him. Fact.

Diane Sawyer knows who she can pick on. She really poked the bear with Whitney. Whitney should've kicked her ass.

Diane took it real easy on Ashley Judd after Naomi died, though.

R54 Touché.

Now give me the remote back, you withering cuntlip! It's almost time for Jello and Jeopardy!

Lisa was at her prettiest when she was with MJ.

[quote]R19 All his childhood, Michael heard the women his brothers and his father were all fucking in plain view in front of Michael in hotel rooms when he six years old, referred to as devils and whores.

Yet they were devoutly religious. Wonder how Dad justified this. Can't imagine the equally-religious Osmonds and their dad doing this back in that era.

The entire Jackson family are Jehovah's Witness cult members R62.

Good post, R55.

[quote]Diane Sawyer knows who she can pick on. She really poked the bear with Whitney. Whitney should've kicked her ass.

[quote]Diane took it real easy on Ashley Judd after Naomi died, though.

Diane Sawyer was being a good journalist during that Whitney interview and asking probing questions that were on everybody's minds.

That Ashley Judd interview took place twenty years later and a lot has changed since the "wokes' have been in charge.

Most so-called journalists today are just paid shills/star-fuckers who must take it easy on women, POC, or anyone perceived as a victim, or else...

[quote] Jackson told Rabbi Shmuley that his dream woman was Princess Di. That's what allows me to believe that he did have some heterosexual bent.

An obsession with Princess Diana is proof of heterosexuality?! In what universe?

all clowns but jacko was a dangerous predatory clown

[quote]Jackson told Rabbi Shmuley that his dream woman was Princess Di. That's what allows me to believe that he did have some heterosexual bent.

You're out of your mind R10. Totally delusionary.

Help me out here OP - does fucking little boys mean you’re still a virgin?

[QUOTE]Does anyone think Jackson knew, from a lucid, sane place inside of himself, that he was a pedophile?

I've wondered about it. He must have been aware of his arousal around children on some level. Maybe he hoped he'd "grow out of it" and when he didn't he thought marriage could fix it.

It reminds me of what I've read about priesthood attracting a couple of different types of pedophiles: those who did it for quiet, unquestioned, unfettered access to children, and those who took took the priesthood to become more "holy" and stave off the sinful attraction through prayer, etc.

Oh please. Watch this you stupid pollyannas.

….That’s really weird!

Fabulous R71!

R71 I love it. Twisted but so on point.

As a pedophile, he was good at grooming people and manipulating them. That’s what he did with Lisa Marie…he sweet-talked her into believing that he was really a good person and she was the only one who understood him because she was special, and that’s why she should marry him.

Was Lisa Marie ever known to be really fat? I’m still surprised that she had bariatric surgery at some point.

[quote]Lisa was at her prettiest when she was with MJ.

Yes, she was beautiful finally like her mother. And right before Priscilla fucked up her face. The resemblance was so strong there was talk that she would play her in "Michael & Lisa Marie: A Love Story".

R65 is what happens when I clear out my blocked list. Back on you go.

R77, yes she was but she also looked a great deal like her father, who wasn’t a bad looker himself.

I wasn’t blinded, r32.

When it was happening, took one look at a mid-30s, purportedly heterosexual male hanging out with male children and knew, at the time, to question it.

I don’t claim to be an exception to that, I’m sure millions had the same reaction.

R42, I agree but his popularity actually didn't really decline outside of America. For instance, in the UK, Bad was as big as Thriller. And it was similar in many other countries around the world. Even History sold a ton outside of America.

R43, MJ fans insist Invincible was "ahead of its time". Is it opposite day or something? That album sounds like MJ attempting to recreate Bad and Thriller via whatever sound was popular in 2000. It has aged horrendously. Michael sounds menopausal on some of the tracks. I find it really funny that people will trash Madonna's lyrics (some of which ARE bad) when Michael was out there writing lyrics like "you're a vegetable", "your butt is mine", and not to mention the lyrics to "Black or White", a song about racial relations as written by a five year old twat.

[quote] Because of the way Black Americans were treated in the United States, they really put successful black people on a pedestal as a way to validate their belonging or success in the US.

A lot of the black nationalist types also denigrate anything and everything created by white people. Anything and everything released by a successful white person is "mediocre". One of my friends who is black said "white people don't create anything, they just steal". That pretty much sums up the attitude right there. You can see this attitude all over social media. You have many of them claiming that The Beatles were mediocre and since they didn't appeal to black people that makes them worthless.

This is an excerpt from the Andrew Morton biography: "A former lover of Madonna's tells Morton that she claimed the "one man she was not able to conquer" was Michael Jackson. She supposedly tried to seduce Jacko after the 1991 Oscars, the ex-lover told Morton, but "when they touched he would start giggling, like a little boy."

R84, Michael said that Madonna forcibly put his hand on her boob and he was "shocked". That was probably the first and only breast he has ever touched.

Well, yeah, Madonna was the A on the A-list and actually beautiful in her own way, back then ... but for Michael Jackson she was the wrong gender and the wrong age.

Anyone else remember the SNL sketch with MJ and his crew doing "Operation Pedophile Not"? Some tall slender woman in the cast played MJ in full makeup and getup, and exclaimed awkwardly in a falsetto voice "I wanna find a honey I can knock boots with!" That's the only line I recall (and the actual line may vary) but it stayed with me all these years, it was a good comedic moment.

R86, your post triggered me. Not really, but still. It reminded me of MJ pretending to be straight in the "You Rock My World" music video. Remember he lifts the woman's dress up? He's so full of shit. Only his stans believed that one lol.

[quote] Invincible didn't do much, nobody really remembers it. Of course it was released just after 9/11 so that had something to do with it.

MJ was at war with Sony, similar to George Michael's war with Sony and Prince's war with Warner Bros. They refused to do any promotion for the album. So instead of the five singles and videos that MJ had planned we got the "You Rock My World," single and video only. And even though by now MJ's nose was a tiny little nub, the track went to number 10 on Billboard and hit number 1 across a dozen countries. It just shoes again how people were able and willing to separate the art from the artists right up until the end. Because as a person Michael was well and truly considered a total freak. But as an artist he was considered a genius and allowed to participate in the world in that sphere. It was Sony who forced MJ to abort further promo (although in my mind you'd think he would have had enough money to make all five videos himself, so I guess he was being stubborn?). He made himself look crazy going around holding signs calling Tommy Mottola the Devil instead.

[quote]I remember during the Dangerous era people were talking more about his freakish appearance and lifestyle and wondering why the fuck he was attached at the hip to Macaulay Culkin instead of the actual album itself.

Again, people talked shit about his personal life while simultaneously going nuts over his music, videos and tours. Dangerous was his fastest selling album in the US. It was the best selling album in the world of 1992. You could not escape "Remember The Time" or "Black and White" for a looooong time. It sold 5 million copies the first week alone and within three years it had sold 32 million copies. In December 2021, Dangerous turned 30. Upon rerelease it reaching #4 on Billboard's vinyl sales chart and #13 on their overall album sales chart.

People have selective memory when it comes to MJ. We remember that he was weird we have hindsight to realize just HOW weird he really was, but it affects our perception of the past so people tend to minimize how huge, vital and marketable he was really up until death.

R88, the way I remember it, Dangerous (the album) came out and went big in late1991-1992... and that was a year or two before all the child sexual abuse stuff really came to the surface. There were whispers but when Dangerous was a hit album MJ fans could still be loyal without having to overlook any specific accusations or evidence. It wasn't mainstream news until Jordy Chandler and family filed the first lawsuit against Jackson in 1993. He paid them a massive $23M to make it go away. The rest of the 1990s chugged along with Michael looking ghostly and being reclusive and then becoming a weird single dad with babies/little kids of his own (widely rumored to not be his bio kids).

Then the Martin Bashir documentary hit in early 2003 and that's when the shit really hit the fan. MJ was a criminal defendant in court two years later and he died a few years after that.

R9 I've thought the same for years.

Which still means he was a pedophile, of course. Seems like anyone that does those horrifying things comes to it through trauma or some kind of abuse.

R88 Michael spent like $25 million to record “Invincible”. Tommy said that he showed up to an empty $10k a day recording studio only to find out Michael Jackson had set up a trailer in the parking lot where he was recording instead.

But Michael was a “genius” so he had to be respected and blow through all that money only to deliver “Invincible” which was nothing more than *NSYNC for older audiences.

Michael was very formulaic. He always repeated his hits too. “Dirty Diana” is “Billie Jean”, “Threatened” and “Ghosts” are “Thriller”, “Heal The World” is “We Are The World”, “Blood on the Dance Flood” is “Smooth Criminal”, “Privacy” is “Tabloid Junkie”, etc.

He was so predictable.

But yes, Michael felt he was above promoting and didn’t want to promote or tour “Invincible”.

Quincy Jones had a lot to do with the success of Off the Wall and Thriller. The documentary Thriller 40 that came out last year told the whole story.

R92, MJ fans always talk about Quincy Jones bashing The Beatles but they never bring up the stuff Quincy said about MJ.

He also spent a literal $4M on the video for You Rock My World, the dull first single from Invincible. $1M of that went to Marlon Brando for his appearance in it.

Yes, exactly, R89. He was still riding super high during the Dangerous era. Superbowl in 1993, MTV Music Awards in 1995. Invincible was really the only album that suffered from the full blow of the sordidness.

Yep $4 million for that one video, R94, and he almost didn't come to the set because he was having a complete nervous breakdown in his hotel bathroom because the director had suggested a prosthetic nose. From Frank Cascio's book:

"A little while later I was back in my hotel room when the phone rang. It was Karen Faye, Michael’s makeup artist, calling from Michael’s room. She was supposed to be getting him ready for the video shoot, but he had locked himself in the bathroom and she had no idea why. She asked me to come to the room immediately.

"When I arrived, I heard Michael inside the bathroom, freaking out and throwing stuff around. Clearly John McClain had talked to him about the proposed changes to his skin and nose, and he was extremely pissed of. I tried to get his attention, but the chaos inside the bathroom went on. Finally I heard him bang something with such force that I got worried. I started trying to break down the door.

At last, Michael let me in. He was sitting on the floor. He’d been in the middle of having his hair cut when he’d heard the news, so his hair was half long, half short. He was holding his hands over his face, sobbing.

“Can you believe it?” he said. “They think I’m ugly? They want to put putty on my nose? What the fu** is wrong with them? I don’t tell them how they should look. Fu** them.” Talking through his tears, he kept saying, “They think I’m a freak, they think I’m a freak, they think I’m a freak.”

He wasn't riding super high during the Dangerous era. The album and singles did well, but the public thought he was a freak.

He was truly destroyed by his father with some help from Berry Gordy. But it was mostly his father.,

[quote] “Can you believe it?” he said. “They think I’m ugly? They want to put putty on my nose? What the fu** is wrong with them? I don’t tell them how they should look. Fu** them.” Talking through his tears, he kept saying, “They think I’m a freak, they think I’m a freak, they think I’m a freak.”

LMFAO this is the guy Stephanie Mills insists was "hood".

[quote] “Can you believe it?” he said. “They think I’m ugly? They want to put putty on my nose? What the fu** is wrong with them? I don’t tell them how they should look. Fu** them.” Talking through his tears, he kept saying, “They think I’m a freak, they think I’m a freak, they think I’m a freak.”

This is also giving shades of "you're ignorant!" from South Park.

R91 MJ was definitely a talented singer and dancer and he had plenty of great ideas and creativity.

But I think he's vastly overrated for many of the reasons you mention.

His music was often repetitive and he owes his career, in large part, to Rod Temperton and Quincy Jones. Temperton, in particular, is almost never mentioned.

The Thriller doc went into Rod Temperton's role in creating the album. He did a lot.

R102 Most fans think Michael just farted out classics one after the other, all on his own.

Much like fans of a certain current pop star.....the one that needs 24 writers to create her songs......

[quote] Jackson told Rabbi Shmuley that his dream woman was Princess Di. That's what allows me to believe that he did have some heterosexual bent.

Straight men weren't sexually attracted to Princess Di. A gay man parading as a straight man might say that Princess Di was his dream woman.

A lot of people disregard Rod Temperton. He wrote “Rock with You”, “Off the Wall”, “Baby Be Mine”, “Thriller”, and “The Lady In My Life”.

Michael only wrote 3 songs for “Off The Wall” and 4 on “Thriller”. Granted they were perfect songs but it’s not like he hand a hand in everything.

MJ wrote Billie Jean, which is my favorite MJ song. Quincy Jones produced it. It's the kind of song that probably gained a lot in the production. Would be interesting to hear what MJ first presented to QJ.

R96 wow that was interesting. Michael looked horrendous at that time, the whole video was filmed around trying not to show Michael’s face, there was only one very brief close up. Surely by this time he must have known he looked like a freak.

Clearly Rod wrote the music and MJ or someone else the words for this one.

Wow, R108, that was a fascinating listen! Incredible how the song came together - it's a fucking masterpiece. So many creative cooks in that kitchen.

[quote] Rod Temperton and Quincy Jones. Temperton

Love them both and their talent. Two of my favorite albums are The Dude by Quincy and Too Hot to Handle by Heatwave. They have so many hits between the two of them and a lot of people don’t know they had a hand in creating so many great songs.

Two of my faves created by Temperton…

Sweet Freedom - Michael McDonald

I didn't read this entire thread so could someone please answer this question:

Was Michael Jackson STILL a virgin when he divorced Lisa Marie? (Is this question answered?)

He was a fucking pedo freak

Ugh. A 35 year old is never a “virgin”. If they’re a chaste monk then their vow of chastity of their identity, not the lack of penis in hole. Calling him a virgin is an attempt to make him sound innocent, naive and childlike. I believe that he never had sex with an adult female and I’m willing to believe to never had sex with an adult male. But he had sexual relations with children and he masturbated thinking about children. That’s not a virgin by any definition except the one that would have all gold star gays and lesbians virgins too.

I’d like to k ow that too R113. Is she pretending that innocent Michael was deflowered in their boudoir on the wedding night.

Now and then Lisa Marie almost let the cat out of the bag. She’s smirk or eye roll but other times she kept up the charade. No coincidence that the clips I’ve seen where she’s on the cusp of spilling the beans, and subtly spilling them with her body language, she also seems the most sober.

Barry Gibb said Michael Jackson stayed at his house to hide out during one of his scandals.

I like Barry Gibb and deeply admire his talent and the songs he created but man, I wonder if I could do that.

I suppose he wanted to be a good friend and to give Jackson the benefit of the doubt, but still.

Scott Thorson (Liberace's boy toy) claimed he had a 6-year sexual relationship with MJ:

Michael Jackson a Virgin at 35!? Yeah, and I'm Milton Berle

I'm pleased to see the Rod T love here. He was a great songwriter.

Fun fact: Rock With You was originally offered to Karen Carpenter for her solo album. She turned it down.

Rod Temperton also wrote Baby Come To Me, which imho is one of the greatest duets ever.

Yah Mo Be There, also a Rod gem…

To R98-Mary Please...Having a horrible father does not make you a PEDO!! MJ was attracted to 10–13-year-old White, Hispanic and mixed little boys, not Black boys. MJ never fucked Webster.

Berry Gordy did not make MJ a Pedo. Both of these men are SCUM, however Michael was born that way!!!

And his family, staff at Neverland, and others knew about MJ being a PEDO.

I never read about Michael Jackson back in the day but vaguely remember the tabloid headlines in the supermarket aisle, so I just got curious and did a google search on the chimp he once owned and I now regret looking it up:

[quote]The world's top primatologist, Jane Goodall, said she believed Bubbles had been punched in the face and kicked in the stomach whilst living with Jackson.

[quote]Furthermore, she claimed that when she tried to talk to the star about it, he flew off the handle.

[quote]"Bubbles is still alive and he’s beautiful. But when he was with Michael he was being beaten."

[quote]She didn't name Michael as Bubbles' alleged abuser, but Jack Gordon, the ex-husband of the star's sister La Toya once claimed he saw Michael attack the defenceless creature. He said: "I saw Michael punch Bubbles in the face, kick him in the stomach." The Jackson family has denied the claims that Michael was abusive towards Bubbles.

Wow. Poor Bubbles. Michael sounds like an awful person in many ways.

Anyway, Bubbles is still alive and likes to paint and listen to flute music, so it seems he now has a happy life (in contrast to his life with Jackson which also included sleeping in a crib next to Michael's bed all those years).

[quote]R115 I’d like to know that too [R113]. Is she pretending that innocent Michael was deflowered in their boudoir on the wedding night.

And was she gentle?

R124 Man I wish I hadn't read all that. I guess the good news is that Bubbles' quality of life is so good now. Bubbles has outlived the insane person by several years, so that's pretty great!

Latoya went to visit bubbles and the chimp remembered her. Iirc, latoya started crying.

R124, if you believe anything said by Jack Gordon, who was an abuser and a liar himself, then you’ll believe anything.

"Because my mother was Elvis Presley’s daughter, she was constantly talked about, argued over and dissected,” Riley, 35, told PEOPLE in an exclusive email interview.

Yeah, no.

[quote] if you believe anything said by Jack Gordon, who was an abuser and a liar himself, then you’ll believe anything.

I have no idea who he is. Jane Goodall, an expert on chimpanzees, believed the animal was being abused.

[quote]"His dancing never evolved" - absolute horseshit.

And yet he had 20 dancers behind him doing the same moves. Baryshnikov he wasn't.

R124, that is horrifying. It is absolutely disgusting to me that this person continues to get adoration from millions around the world for his music and his phony persona despite the fact that he demonstrate evil behavior time and time again. I guess writing a bunch of shitty songs about dead children or whatever will do that.

[quote] demonstrate evil behavior time and time again.

[quote] I guess writing a bunch of shitty songs about dead children or whatever will do that.

You rang?

R133, lmfao, don't even get me started on Clapton. I never liked him or that lame Tears in Heaven song. Always beware men that Sheryl Crow has dated.

R134 for real, she has the worst taste in men.

What's the difference between a baby and a bag of cocaine?

Eric Clapton never would've let a bag of cocaine fall out of a window.

R135, she really, really does. Liar and Cheater Lance Armstrong, Bigoted asshole Eric Clapton and loser douchebag Kid Rock. And there are probably others!

Bob Dylan.....'nuff said

So what? It’s not a crime and he was probably healthier for it.

R138, WTF? She dated Bob Dylan!?

He was a heterosexual virgin but what about his guy on guy virginity, or should I say guy on boy virginity.

R138 R140 Sheryl Crow dated Jakob Dylan, not Bob.

What did Michael Jackson and pimples have in common?

They both came all over your face when you were 12 years old.

Jackson's bodyguard Matt Fiddess would have you know that Michael was an incorrigible ladies' man, thank you very much!

[quote]"Michael Jackson was a real womanizer, but he was suppressed from expressing or showing any kind of interest in women because of his music label," Fiddes said. "They believed it wasn't good for his career and would ultimately impact his female fans."

[quote]"We went to great lengths to hide his girlfriends and wives from the public," he added. "He was brainwashed by Motown to not be seen with a girl because if you're seen with a girl, your fan base would be gone."

This Fiddes guy gets interviewed constantly as a credible first-hand source of the truth. But he sounds more like someone is paying him to say these things. Who would be paying someone to clean up MJ's image posthumously?

Taking Fiddes' assertions at face value for a minute: Why were we, the public, allowed to know about Lisa Marie and Debbie then, if it was so crucial that Michael seem eternally available? Secondly, of all the wives to hide, wouldn't Debbie Rowe have been the most hide-able of them all? Considering the ink had barely dried on his divorce from Lisa Marie, and considering how grotesquely plain Debbie was, how little chemistry she and Michael had, how fake it seemed, and how weird it made Michael look to marry this plain manly woman?

And then, in MJ's later years, when he was supposedly making out with women in the back of his limo (another bodyguard assertion), on what planet would it have been preferable to allow the public to believe that Michael was a eunuch, castrato, fag, monster or pedophile, versus a normal heterosexual lover of women?

Michael Jackson was a sexual pervert with money.

Trump is a sexual pervert with money.

Picture either one without their money.

That is who they are.

She briefly dated Bob Dylan, she covered his unreleased song "Mississippi"

Trump was a huge Michael Jackson defender too R145. That's why all the Jacksons love Trump and are MAGA supporters.

Janet Jackson recently made a comment about being a MAGA supporter.

I have to say, I didn't think a corpse in Lisa's freezer could turn into a Trump thread. But here we are. Kudos girls.

Does frotting count?

[quote]I have no idea who he is.

Well then, perhaps you should do some investigating before posting quotes that show him in a good light. A noble person he was not.

[quote]Janet Jackson recently made a comment about being a MAGA supporter.

A MAGA supporter? No, honey, she did not. She (stupidly) commented to a reporter that she "heard" Kamala's father is white - a falsehood likely implanted in her head by her MAGA brother Randy, who also currently manages her.

Michael Jackson never touched a woman in his entire life.

Tatum O'Neal has taked about trying to seduce MJ when they were both teenagers. She said MJ got all flustered and ran out of her house.

Any heterosexual teenage boy would've been all over her. MJ has zero interest in members of the female sex.

Sorry, I meant MJ HAD zero interest in members of the female sex.

When the first Harry Potter movie was being filmed, Michael Jackson was desperate to meet little Daniel Radcliffe. He wanted to visit the set in the worst way. The director Chris Columbus, Radcliffe's parents and JK Rowling herself all refused to allow him access to Radcliffe. JK Rowling allegedly said to Chris Columbus "you keep that kid fucker away from my Harry."

R154, that is so fucked up. Seriously, the ego on this "man". He relentlessly pursued kids even after the first trial. His audacity never amazes.

What’s the difference between Neil Armstrong and Michael Jackson?

Neil Armstrong walked on the moon, and Michael Jackson fucked children.

Why did Michael Jackson only date twenty eight year olds?

There were twenty of them.

Serious question - I watched the MTV video awards performance referenced above - I scrolled back through the thread but cannot find the exact reply to link to here. But it’s a general question - How was he constantly crotch grabbing and it was accepted as “dancing” in mainstream society? I was in middle school during that period and honestly don’t remember - did he somehow just normalize that?

He screwed a fuck-ton of little boys by the time he was 35. In what world does that make him a virgin?

R158, not trying to be sassy here, but Madonna was humping the floor. Other artists were being very sexual on stage. I don't think MJ was doing anything way worse than anyone else.

Michael Jackson was also a Homosexual Pedophile at 35 .

Remember Norm Macdonald on SNL?

I think I'm the poster you're referencing, R158. And yes, Madonna was humping the floor but MJ specifically spawned the crotch-grabbing. And while it wasn't cause for banning his videos or appearances, EVERYBODY took notice. Millions of jokes and comments were made about it. I don't think anyone thought it was particularly normal. Looking back, it's way weirder to me now than it was then, and it was weird then. Now though, it's just mindboggling, why someone would be grabbing their crotch publicly as a dance move. Michael once said he wasn't necessarily aware of what he was doing, he was just feeling the music. I've been lost in the music while dancing many times and I never felt the sudden uncontrollable urge to grab my dick. Anyway, it was one of those idiosyncrasies of Jackson's, like the hiccups and the constantly changing looks, that people just sort of tolerated. Thought it was odd, made jokes, but tolerated and accepted. It didn't hurt his career.

Now that his reign is over its way easier to see more clearly all the glaring weirdness in the light of day. That kind of thing would NEVER fly today.

He had a lot of annoying vocal tics when he sang.

[quote]Now that his reign is over

Michael Jackson is, was and will always be the King of Pop, the world-renown best selling artist of all time whose everlasting influence will manifest in future generations of performers. His reign will never be over.

The Lionsgate publicity department has entered the chat.

R144 that security guard, along with others, is obviously still on the Jacko payroll via the estate. It doesn’t matter that we all know it’s a crock of shit, its was the lunatic Jackson fans want to hear. Once they have heard this it just confirms to them that everything they read stating otherwise is ‘tabloid trash’ (Michael’s favourite line) and anyone who dares question otherwise is a ‘hater’.

The wacko Jacko nutters all read from the same script, it’s like they have a secret MJ bible that they share between them. Michael never had a childhood. His skin changed colour due to vitiligo. His face changed over the years due to Lipus.

The most hilarious one is that Michael’s ‘people’ manager, record label etc were not happy with him having a girlfriend, as much as he wanted one, because it would ruin his image. But presumably they were very happy for him to be seen flaunting his little boyfriends everywhere.

R160 in spite of his crotch-grabbing and panting most of his dancing was robotic and sexless.

^Robson or Safechuck, is that you?

[quote] . Anyway, it was one of those idiosyncrasies of Jackson's, like the hiccups and the constantly changing looks, that people just sort of tolerated.

And now that shit is considered "iconic".

[quote] He had a lot of annoying vocal tics when he sang.

This is my biggest problem with his post-Thriller work. And it's a big reason why I prefer his Jackson 5 stuff.

I didn’t like his voice post-Thriller. By the time he was in his late 20s it was thin and reedy, like all the Jacksons as adults. Even Janet, though she had a few well chosen pop songs in her 30s.

R171, I think he has a far greater range than Janet (then again, you can say that about most artists) but he has that same thinness in his voice. Its what gave some of those songs on Invincible that menopausal woman quality. I like his voice in The Jackson 5 because it sounds so drastically different from that.

[quote] Michael Jackson is, was and will always be the King of Pop

I always thought it was lame that he was self-dubbed the "King of Pop."

Also, pop? Yes, it was pop music, but it just sounded so stupid (King of Pop).

R173, I am genuinely curious if Elizabeth Taylor did some shady shit in her own life (aside from the 10000 marriages). She loved Michael, refused to believe he was guilty and called him The King of Music.

MJ also dubbed himself the "King of Pop" when he more or less was no longer anything of the sort. In the US, by the time the Bad album had been released, his reputation as a weirdo was already snowballing with the public. It was considered embarrassing and undesirable to like him or his music among my fellow 4th and 5th grade classmates when that album came out. I think it is fair to say he was still very popular in the grand scheme of things, especially in international markets, and that album sold huge numbers and was wildly successful by any measure, but his image was in steady or even steep decline. By the time "Dangerous" was released, this was even more apparent, and the child molestation allegations sent his appeal off of a cliff with the majority of the US public. He was already considered a strange, plastic surgery obsessed mess, but suddenly it was confirmed he was possibly an evil creep, too. Madonna, Whitney and Mariah were still ascending to great heights of success in the early to mid 90s, while MJ was basically in freefall, still benefiting somewhat from the aura of superstardom a decade before, but a lot of the fans from that era had moved on. By the time he insisted on being called "King Of Pop" it was basically little more than a vanity license plate kind of deal.

Anybody else remember Weird Al Yancovic's "Bad" parody, "Fat?" My brother and I were kids at the time and we would be crying from laughing so hard when we watched this.

[quote]Madonna, Whitney and Mariah were still ascending to great heights of success in the early to mid 90s, while MJ was basically in freefall

You sound bitter. Michael Jackson, for all his weird proclivities, was still the end all-be all when it came to male pop stars in the early ‘90s. And, you should have added Janet to your list, because at that point, every album she released was bigger than the previous, she was the first woman to debut at #1 during the new (at the time) SoundScan era, and her deal with Virgin records made her the highest paid artist in history at the time.

R106 Home demo from 1981.

r177 Madonna and Whitney were the two queens of pop in the early 90s. Michael Jackson was widely regarded as a freak by then.

There were no “queens of pop.” As was stated upthread, the “Whatever” of pop moniker was self-anointed by Michael himself, although it was very fitting because he was at the time, and still is, the biggest selling solo artist of all time. Madonna fell off for a bit stateside after the Sex debacle and couldn’t even get a #1 album stateside through the entirety of the ‘90s. Luckily for her, Evita was her rebound.

I meant if figuratively. Madonna and Whitney were the biggest female pop stars in the early 90s.

Pedo

I don’t know about this idea that he just instinctively felt his crotch needing to be grabbed while he danced. In the MTV awards video, it was choreographed for his background dancers to do it as well. No big deal to me, I just think it’s funny. In retrospect he really was a very weird performer, but he was so famous it’s like he pulled the wool over the eyes of the entire world for a time. Generally I think his work doesn’t stand up to scrutiny after his cult of personality has faded.

[quote]Madonna and Whitney were the biggest female pop stars in the early 90s.

They were not the only ones. Janet was one of them as well. Biggest selling album of 1990, biggest debut world tour of any artist in 1990, back to back to back #1 albums, first artist with seven top 5 Hot 100 hits from a single album, multiple awards won and chart records set, a #1 US box office film, a landmark record setting album deal — people consistently try to diminish or flat out erase her legacy, but her stats are real.

Yeah Janet was popular but Whitney and Madonna were in a different league. And decades later she doesn't have as much of a legacy as Madonna and Whitney.

Janet never had a diamond album versus the other women had two or three. Globally, Janet wasn't selling albums the way those other women were. None of her albums sold over 20 million whereas the other women had two or three that did. She just wasn't in their league. Still a very important artist but saying she was on the same level of popularity as those women would be as delusional as saying Madonna was as popular as Michael Jackson. The latter are two of the most popular artists ever but Michael was in his own league.

R185, Again, you are misinformed. As I type, she is selling out arenas overseas in the second leg of a tour that was also sold out in the US earlier the year, when people continually wrote her off as always cancelling shows and not being able to sell out shows any longer. Her influence is noticeable in just about every pop star to come out of whatever decade we are in. She has hits on top of hits and has been name checked by everyone from Beyonce and Rihanna to Gaga and Britney as an influence. Her albums are influential and timely (namely Rhythm Nation 1814, which was also added to the Library of Congress) and several are on Greatest of All Times lists. Janet has never had her albums re-certified, so there is no accounting for what they have sold to date.

Jesus Fucking Christ can Janbot just fuck off? He's frighteningly obsessed.

We're not talking about Janet in this thread. We're talking about her brother who fucked little boys.

Donna Summer really set the template for female pop stars, which continues to the present day. She's never gotten her due. She's always been underrated.

The Bad Girls album was essentially the blueprint for a huge, best-selling pop album by a woman. It was really a game changer.

Here’s Rodney Jerkins talking about “Invincible”.

[quote]I am genuinely curious if Elizabeth Taylor did some shady shit in her own life (aside from the 10000 marriages). She loved Michael, refused to believe he was guilty and called him The King of Music.

He would gift her extravagant jewelry.

Michael wasn’t weird in the Off the Wall, Thriller era. He was a sexy, young black guy who appeared well adjusted but shy and perhaps socially awkward. There were a lot of rumors were that he was gay and closeted. He did a lot of hanging with Diana Ross and Jane Fonda.

The weirdness and the kids started with the Bad era.

[quote] I think he has a far greater range than Janet (then again, you can say that about most artists) but he has that same thinness in his voice.

Sure, but my point was that all the Jacksons struggled with thin voices and peaked by their early 20s.

With regard to Janet, being a woman, she got away with the reedy vocals longer than Michael did, largely because up until the early 00s she chose one or two pertinent singles like All For You that played with layering her sound. It’s amazing how well something like Escapade aged. Of course, a few years later that was all over.

By the time the 00s rolled around, Michael Jackson’s equivalent sound was taken over by Backstreet Boys, Ricky Martin and Justin Timberlake. And Michael sounded dated 10 years earlier with the popularity of grunge, industrial and hip-hop. He even sounded much unlike the richness of mens R&B of the 90s like Boyz II Men. His energetic stage performances and legions of crazed fans in what kept him on top for so long, not his singing.

R28 you’re sick.

^ but is he wrong?

R193, I agree. Not sure why they all end up with those shrill voices. I hate it.

Credible. He roleplayed being a child. Also, boring. Who cares anymore, honestly?

[quote] you’re sick

you're dim.

[quote]The same poster had some squeamish details about what MJ did with his child victims and what the housekeepers knew based on what they often found while cleaning.

Allegedly bedsheets and underwear that made it very obvious sexual things were going on. He was such a sick fuck.

Also, allegedly, Madonna was extremely uncomfortable with MJ being affectionate with the little boys who were always around him and after their brief socializing period in the very early 90s, Madonna would have nothing more to do with MJ. She was smart enough to know that things weren't kosher.

Madonna: an example that we can all follow.

R299, that explains why she defended him non-stop during his second trial and the documentary and why she has a pillowcase signed by him on her bed and why she dedicated an entire segment of her last tour to him with the pair animated as in love with one another. You just made up an entire story.

Are we also forgetting Madonna’s tribute at the VMAs after his death which she again made all about herself.?Madonna is also a pedophile. She spoke openly to a magazine back in 1985 that she liked young, smooth Latino boys that hung outside her apartment, 15 year olds. She wrote about fucking an underage boy that she described as just a baby with no pubic hair and that sex with the young can be fun in her Sex book. She continues to defend Roman Polanski. Madonna is a sick fuck herself. She was perfect for Michael.

Madonna definitely tried to fuck him. That was corroborated and something she did with everyone she wanted to use. He ran screaming from the room and never forgave her.

I remember Stephanie Mills claiming she and Michael dated. She even claimed that she was ready to be Mrs. Michael Jackson. She is delusional.

R43- his 4th album was Dangerous and there are a lot of good songs in that one, my favorite being “Keep the Faith.” Then there was History which had “You Are Not Alone” and the excellent lesser known “History.” I only remember one song from Invincible. It was “Speechless.” It had a good tune but why does he keep singing about being speechless?

On an earlier point, I’m not proud of it but I know some pedophiles and none of them are attracted to both sexes.

[quote], that explains why she defended him non-stop during his second trial and the documentary

She admits she never saw Leaving Neverland.

You are Not Alone is horrible. Creepy, cheesy song. And that's without getting into the music video.

And I’m 120 pounds.

R205 Are you kidding? Dangerous had tons of good songs on it: In The Closet, Black Or White, Remember The Time, Dangerous. And History had "The Don't Really Care About Us" and "Stranger In Moscow." Invincible had "You Rock My World" and "Break of Dawn" and "Butterflies." Come on, man. He never stopped having amazing songs. Even though he is extremely problematic, he had incredible tunes all the way through.

Invincible was mediocre all the way through. It was released in 2001 and it sounds like it. They Don't Really Care About Us exposed MJ's antisemitism (which he deflected with his typical "you're ignorant!" BS). Black or White is a child's view of racial relations. I will give you Remember the Time and Stranger in Moscow. I think it's interesting that Janet and Madonna would be trashed if they wrote some of the lyrics that MJ did. But, somehow, there are people out there that think MJ is a lyrical genius.

r209 compared to his previous output, the Dangerous album was lame and boring.

Has anyone seen his childhood?

R202- She's also someone who was NEVER talented and now she's an OVER THE HILL SKANK.

Says you, R211

Dangerous was a great album but had too many cooks in the kitchen. It was too perfect. Too over-produced.

Agreed,R215 But it was not shitty.

Michael jackson had a terrible end, but he tried to tell us. Earth Song, They Don't Really Care About Us, Stranger In Moscow, and Morphine....he tried to tell us.

To R217-MJ wasn't that smart, the only thing he told us that he FUCKED white, mixed, and Latino little boys, not black boys.

Miss Jackson wasn't black.

If you cut "Speechless", "Privacy", "You Are My Life" and the particularly dreadful "The Lost Children", then Invincible becomes a decent 12-track album. Dated, formulaic, but decent enough (depending on your ability to separate the art from the artist, given everything we now know about MJ).