President-elect of Mexico refuses to invite "arrogant" King of Spain to her inauguration

Dr. Jill to lead US delegation.

See, it all went straight to her head.

Cracks me up. Should every colony on earth get an apology even when they've failed to govern themselves effectively? Will Maduro be lining up next?

I don't have anyone ignored. Why is r1 not visible to me? Was he that awful so soon?

Royalty adds class to an event. The king and queen of Spain should be welcomed.

Ugh, always the stupidest kind of international dispute, which means it will never, ever end.

You didn't apologize for shit from 500 years ago! Oh, fuck off.

Speaking of Spain and Venezuela, the former King, Juan Carlos, cracked me up. "Porque no te callas?" Why don't you just shut up?

Ah unnastand. We still not ovah Genral Sherman.

R6 - It wasn't just 500 years ago - obviously Spain had colonies all over the world until the early 20th century.

England gets called out ALL THE FUCKING TIME by every former country - but I don't hear the same stuff about Spain, who arguably had a much more inhumane and unequal treatment of the conquered and colonialists.

I don't hear a peep from Latino countries about Spain and its bullshit - but they got a lot to say about England and America.

Yes how awful those conquistadors were, overthrowing those noble, peace-loving, human sacrificing Aztec cannibals.

And don't get me started on the Dutch!

But either way r9, what the fuck use is some apology today from the current king of Spain? And yes, it's just as stupid when people want apologies from England, or the U.S., or France, or Portugal, or Russia, or on and on and on and motherfucking on ...

[QUOTE]I don't hear a peep from Latino countries about Spain and its bullshit

Is that because you don't speak or read Spanish?

Public accusations and mud slinging are not helpful. King Felipe is a constitutional monarch, and his public utterances are at the direction of the elected government. Personalising the issue helps nobody.

Did he actually make a public utterance, r14? Why do you think he did?

[quote]after he failed to apologize for the Spanish conquest

You've got to fucking kidding me.

People think the British in school still learn about the glorious nature of British empire and how beneveloent it was. That hasn't been the case in more than a decade. But, in Spain, the idea of the glorious Spanish empire is still dominant.

All those diseases brought by the Spanish, not to mention the enslavement, just made the natives stronger and happier in the end! They should be thanking the Spanish!

She better not speak Spanish from now on because, you know, it came from Spain. What a retard.

Truth & Reconciliation.

[QUOTE]But, in Spain, the idea of the glorious Spanish empire is still dominant.

Could you tell us how you arrived at this conclusion? Were you a elementary/high school student in Spain recently to become familiar with the national curriculum?

It wasn't HER request - it was President Obrador's request in 2019 to apologize for atrocities against the native people. They had years to craft a reply or statement - but nah.

UK Prime Ministers apologized for a lot of bad historical events - including slavery.

Good for her. Fuck the King of Spain - I don't think they've ever had an acknowledgment of how much of their riches came from such terrible treatment of people all over the world.

[quote] Fuck the King of Spain

Gladly.

It seems like an empty ritual and rightly ignored. It's not like anybody is going to accept any apologies, ever. And really who exactly is doing the accepting, on whose behalf?

What the hell is the point of all this shit, really? Yes, people should be very clear and taught about the horrors of colonialism. Yes, absolutely. But some king today apologizing for it all is just one of those stupid empty gestures that nobody actually really wants, they just want the weird experience of demanding it.

And honestly, a lot more Mexicans are probably descended from the people who committed most of the atrocities. Do they apologize as well? Does the Prime Minister demand that?

^^^Knew that reply was coming.

I was referring to R23, not R24.

oops, meant President, not Prime Minister.

She invited Putin to the ceremony and turned down Zelensky's offer to visit Ukraine.

Mexico has been targeted by Russia. If anyone wonders where the "caravans" look no further. I actually posted an article about this a few years ago and got a royal DL chew out for being paranoid.

Ask Our Lady of Guadalupe for intervention. I'll probably be put in a time-out.

[quote] If anyone wonders where the "caravans" look no further.

Can you put the missing words in here r29? not sure what you are talking about. Russia is spying on us. Check. It's easier to spy on us from Mexico than within the U.S. Check, sort of (they have been spying on us through their embassies and consulates since at least World War II).

So what about caravans?

I don't care if he's a head for state, but who would really want Vladimir Putin at any event? There's damn near 200 countries in the World, so why would he be anywhere close to the of the list top for an invite? Right now he pretty much sticks to visiting other equally repressive, undemocratic countries like China and North Korea.

R32 - it's a bluff to see if he shows up. If he does, it makes her look strong and willing to take on Putin. If he doesn't, it makes her look strong.

She knows what she's doing.

She's going to be interesting to watch.

Or did she just invite every world leader, well, all but one?

Maybe she's just needy and wants the biggest party ever.

[QUOTE]So what about caravans?

Indeed, I missed two words "where the 'caravans' came from" Passing out walking around money to poor and desperate people all over Latin America.

Yes, of course, embassies are hubs of "spy" activity. It's just strange that sudden increase of about two dozen personnel got scoffed at.

I think some of those caravans were absolutely politically motivated - it always seems to happen before US elections.

R9 Spain didn’t have any inhuman treatment at least compared to england. Spain actually treated Indians like humans while England as if they were animals. Learn history sweetheart .

[quote] People think the British in school still learn about the glorious nature of British empire and how beneveloent it was. That hasn't been the case in more than a decade

Who on earth thinks this other than you?

[quote]I think some of those caravans were absolutely politically motivated - it always seems to happen before US elections.

There could be a whole separate thread dedicated to the bullshit that pops up or suddenly becomes a "concern" right before every presidential and/or midterm election. The migrant caravans and crime are perennial favorites. Once the elections end, those same news stories sink back into obscurity.

As R14 correctly notes, the King of Spain has no discretion in the matter. If she’s upset her stupid request wasn’t granted, she should criticise the Spanish government.

[QUOTE]Spain actually treated Indians like humans

Only if they converted and left their heathen ways behind?

The king of Spain's daughter came to visit me

And all for the sake of my ...

LITTLE NUT TREE!

Oh come on, r38. As I posted, I don't really see the use of big fake apologies, but there is absolutely no reason to go in the other direction and sentamentalize this shit. It really was brutal, as noted by one of the first Spaniards to write about the conquest, Bartolome de las Casas. He started as a participant and ended as one of the ones disgusted by all that shit.

R38 - are you INSANE? They captured natives and put them into SLAVERY.

You don't know SHIT about history - keep your uneducated mouth shut.

And they made them learn Flamenco.

The Spanish were the first to bring African slaves to the Americas.

Is Mexico’s president considered Jewish?

But not the Lambada, r46, the Forbidden Dance!

Would anyone want to have lived under the brutal Aztec warriors of Mexico? Not me. Thank God for the Virgin of Guadalupe, who converted the nation to Christianity.

Spain has its own problems. They got rid of the real King of Spain for this this one, Phil 6

Aren’t governmental apologies extremely rare? Everyone but the new President of Mexico realises so many horrible things were done in the past by everyone that there would be no end to the apologising. Does the President plan to issue an apology for human sacrifice?

[quote] Would anyone want to have lived under the brutal Aztec warriors of Mexico? Not me. Thank God for the Virgin of Guadalupe, who converted the nation to Christianity.

Um, no. There was no sudden conversion under any Virgin of Guadalupe. It was a long and brutal slog of "conversion."

And no, I would not like to live under the Aztecs, but I seriously doubt any of us would want to live in 16th century Spain either. We'd be executed savagely for sodomy or maybe just left to die of some miserable disease or lkilled in some brutal war or burnt for some heretical thought or dead from some other bullshit thing we barely think about today.

Mexico was very clean. Spaniards were amazed at how clean everything was... R52 an apology to whom exactly for human sacrifice?

Who the HELL does the King of Spain think he is!?

Did she invite Shitler? Are he and Vlad going to meet up like at family weddings in gangster movies and "do a little business"?

It’s her loss - King Felipe is a total zaddy.

NOW is her time!

[quote]People think the British in school still learn about the glorious nature of British empire and how beneveloent it was. That hasn't been the case in more than a decade. But, in Spain, the idea of the glorious Spanish empire is still dominant.

I prefer a new edition of the Spanish Inquisition than to ever let a woman in my life!

For fuck's sake.

An official acknowledgement of atrocities committed during the colonial period harms no one and means something symbolically.

And the Spanish did hideous things to the Native peoples.

The idea that the natives committed human sacrifice has been largely discredited. And the ruling class was not the common people (who suffered the most under Spanish rule)

Unlike the relatively sparsely settled US and Canada, Mexico had an ancient urban civilization and a greater portion of its modern population is part or full native.

She’s such a Kamala.

THey did, but not the Bourbons.

[quote] Cracks me up. Should every colony on earth get an apology even when they've failed to govern themselves effectively? Will Maduro be lining up next?

Yes. Colonialism was an offense.

I’m sorry! Everyone feel better !

What I find so amusing about this thread is that there's zero discussion that Spain has a Constitutional Monarchy directed by its government. Singling out Felipe makes Claudia look stupid, if indeed she's been directed by someone to say it.

I don't know if or how much Mexico gets foreign aid from Spain. If she threatens Western democracies, she's toast, unlike the idiot in Argentina. His mental illness is Trump-like crazy, but Argentina is essentially a failed state not in our border, so the U.S. isn't that particularly interested in him. He's a blowhard cunt easily disposed of. Obrador was a mini-Trump. Claudia is a little more thorny.

But was it colonial colonialism?

[quote] What I find so amusing about this thread is that there's zero discussion that Spain has a Constitutional Monarchy directed by its government.

See r14 and r41.

Two posts don't amount to a discussion,r67, do they? People prefer taking a shit rather than being objective which appears to be the case on this thread. Can't you tell?

That’s productive.

Why aren't they bitching about Americans taking a whole chunk of their country on false pretences? And some of the Founding Fathers actually wanting to conquer it all? That seems a lot more consequential for modern Mexico than the Spanish conquest centuries earlier.

[QUOTE]taking a whole chunk of their country on false pretences

Rather than being coy, why don't you provide a link instead of passive aggression? You'd probably spur a debate, but that's the last thing you'd want, right?

UK here, of Irish descent.

There are ways to heal old divisions and address historical wrongdoing without descending to abuse. It takes goodwill on both sides, as well as a willingness to bend.

The Irish President invited Queen Elizabeth to pay a State visit after years of careful negotiation. It turned out to be a spectacular success, and it is widely regarded as transformative. I never in a million years thought this could happen.

[QUOTE]It wasn't HER request - it was President Obrador's request in 2019 to apologize for atrocities against the native people. They had years to craft a reply or statement - but nah.

Well, then shit on Felipe's public image as a new Head of State from Obrador, who was practically Trump Jr.

What an excellent way for a new Head of State to make her mark.

Obrador believes in cheap housing and universal health care.... Spain is nothing.

[quote]And don’t get me started on the Dutch!

Already done, by both PM and King.

[QUOTE]Obrador believes in cheap housing and universal health care....

Obrador says shit, just like he told mushbrains that Mexico would "pay for the wall."

Very charming, believable gents - especially the part how a moribund state is supposed to pay for his bullshit promises of housing and Healthcare when his own spill over the border hoping to get away from cheap housing and munificent Healthcare.

When the GOP denies decent health care in our own fucking red states that rejected Obama care, AKA the Affordable Healthcare Act. Trump/Obrador = two peas in a pod.

Who started this wreck?

There's going to much fucking Speedy Gonzales shit. Start with this assholes!!!!.

Felipe and Letizia would class up the joint.

Oopsh, sho shorree, Shpayn.

You have an amazing sense of humor, R80.

One of the reasons you hear more criticism of the British by colonial people is because Britain held onto its empire well into the 20th century, and got rich and stayed rich due to the empire. By the early 19th century, Spain had lost control of most of its possessions. South Asia, the Caribbean and African countries can rightfully argue that Britain's wealth came at the expense of its colonies. But just because Spain hasn't come in for criticism doesn't mean it's not merited.

The very existence of Mexico, is due to Spain. There would be no Mexico had Spain not created it.

The Indians were not enlaved like the Africans were, no Indians were sold in slaves market and owned by white people. They were treated harshly by the Spaniards but that was the only way to romanized them and bring civilization to them.

English conquerors never had to experience encountering feral and vicious Indians like the Spaniards did in South America and specifically in Central America like Mexico.

If it weren’t for me, YOU’D BE NOTHING.

Sheinbaum? Now, there's a family tree that's interesting.

She sounds like a lunatic.

ESL from the Gays and Tennis threads spotted.

What's romanizing?

Spain owes us a huge apology too; leaving us with all these foreign sounding colony place names like Boca Raton.

Italy owes us a huge apology too; leaving us with all these foreign sounding last names like DeSantis.

R88 Do the Sheinbaums own in Boca?

Mouth Rat

[quote]Why aren't they bitching about Americans taking a whole chunk of their country?

Where would they send their rapists, their murderers, their insane?

R83 - they didn't have to sell them in a market because they didn't have to ship them in.

They DID enslave natives until a law was passed - which then created a system of communal slavery (encomeindas).

And they only did it to 'civilize them' - Jesus Christ - you're both dumb and a racist.

[quote]Is Mexico’s president considered Jewish [quote]Sheinbaum? Now, there's a family tree that's interesting.

One of those times that a blurb from Wikipedia can answer the most simple questions:

Claudia Sheinbaum Pardo was born on 24 June 1962 to a Mexican Jewish family in Mexico City. Her paternal Ashkenazi grandparents emigrated from Lithuania to Mexico City in the 1920s. Her maternal Sephardic grandparents emigrated there from Sofia, Bulgaria, in the early 1940s to escape the Holocaust. Though raised secular, she celebrated the major Jewish holidays at her grandparents' homes.

[quote]She sounds like a lunatic.

If you are a fellow American, we're potentially on the brink of electing an actual lunatic as president for the second time in eight years. Until then, we've completely lost the moral high ground to criticize other democratically-elected leaders.

[quote] For fuck's sake.An official acknowledgement of atrocities committed during the colonial period harms no one and means something symbolically. And the Spanish did hideous things to the Native peoples.

I think governments have given this a moment or two of thought, unlike you. You can say it means something and harms no one. The problem is that the world has always been a bit of a hellhole. If every government apologised for everything it had done, there is first a practical problem. For several years, at least, governments will be on an apology tour. Second, you say it will mean something symbolically, but it won’t. If every atrocity gets an apology, the apology quickly turns into a routine, empty gesture You are assuming only your favorite cause (Mexico) gets an apology, but you don’t get that special right. Every mistreated group will deserve an apology, leaving them utterly meaningless. Third, it’s impossible to ensure that you have apologised to every persecuted group. Those left out will rightly feel slighted. Fourth, there us the issue of hypocrisy. Even majority non-European nations have been horrible to people. Why isn’t the President of Mexico concentrating on the tisanes of apologies she undoubtedly needs to make?

I’m glad the Spanish government is not following your naive suggestion.

R95 - ok, so because there will be too many unnamed undefined apologies in the future that you can't mention, nobody should complain about anything from the past.

Got it. So helpful. Admit and acknowledge nothing - very Trumpian.

She uninvited someone who's family did something centuries ago, yet he invited Putin who up to this day massacres Ukrainians. Mexico once again being Mexico...

R95. There are several problems with your literacy—-very Trumpian.

Please cite the passage in my post where I say mo one should complain. That is a product of your illiteracy. Past atrocities should certainly be discussed and studied, and their effects, where possible, remedied.

I notice you don’t address any of the undesirable effects of public apologies that I mention, which are the same reasons most left-leaning governments don’t issue them routinely.

Next time ask yourself if you are just being stupid instead of attributing an odious political philosophy to me.

Don't forget, r95, it opens up the issue of reparations. If ancestors of Black American slaves want million or two dollars apiece, what would it mean for Indigenous people in Mexico? When their own government has failed them continuously for a couple of centuries...

[QUOTE]yet she invited Putin who up to this day massacres Ukrainians. Mexico once again being Mexico...

Nothing more needs to be said. To Putin, Mexico is just another poorly-governed central African country Russia believes it can exploit for for their own ends. Like the millions of brown Muslims in Chechnya or Syria Putin tried to bomb into extinction.

[quote] For fuck's sake.An official acknowledgement of atrocities committed during the colonial period harms no one and means something symbolically. And the Spanish did hideous things to the Native peoples.

Maybe she should first set an example by apologizing for Mexico’s own treatment of its indigenous populations:

R101 - the Pope calling out injustices, discrimination and illegal activities? Oh my sides!

Anyone venerating the Pope and the Catholic Church are willingly blind idiots.

[QUOTE]Anyone venerating the Pope and the Catholic Church are willingly blind idiots.

Why do you think this refutes r101's point?

R93 you clearly are reading too much leyenda negra crap invented by England to sully Spain’’s reputation.

While the encomiendas were indeed a form of abuse, it was no different than the ones many poor Spaniards colonizers had to endure under the protection of the encomendador.

No Indians were ever bought and sold, not only that, they were even encouraged to marry Spaniards , something that was not the case with black prople. English colonizers had a similar system with Irish inmigrants, exploitative and abusive yes, but not slavery. Not only that, many Indians owned black slaves as well and were part of the slave business too and worked as capataces (overseers).

Indians were supposed to be educated and were expected to go to school to learn how to read and write, black people on the other hand were supposed to remain illiterate.

What’s more, it wasn’t just the Spaniards who had an interest in civilizing the Indians but also the Catholic Church.

Those sob stories created by some historians with an agenda, to describe the relationship between Spaniards and Indians, have been more than debunked by serious modern historians.

And last but not least, the writings of Padre de Las Casas have been more than proven to be wrong by modern research.

Girls, you're all atrocious.

[quote]It’s her loss - King Felipe is a total zaddy.

Spain is a definite frontrunner for the hottest combo of head of state (King) and head of government (Prime Minister), R57.

R104 - stop being an apologist for Spain. The Indians were put into enforced labor and were communities 'owned' by landowners. Oh but they weren't bought and sold - they were under forced labor and couldn't leave. Who cares that they weren't bought and sold? You're splitting hairs.

What Indian schools are you fucking talking about? Schools for the kids spawned from landowners and Indians - right? or Catholic institutions to help spread the 'faith'?

The Indians were 'encouraged' to marry Spaniards? You know that the first few waves was just straight up ownership and rape right? That's what happens when you have predominantly male conquistadors - they hook-up with local women because there are no other options.

Your hot take on history is appalling.

Stop washing this with this supposed Spanish benevolence. There were charts of different racial types in Spain to determine your 'level'.

Mexico is a signatory to the Rome Statutes covering the responsibilities of member states towards persons accused of war crimes, one of which is the arrest and detention of persons indicted by the International Criminal Court. Putin has been indicted by the ICC for abducting and killing Ukrainian children. The court has no police powers and Putin won’t show but if he did and Mexico didn’t arrest him and send him to The Hague for trial, one wonders how seriously the ICC and other signatory states would consider Mexico’s extradition requests in the future.

Stupid r38 have you heard if the fucking Inquisition? Brits sent pox blankets and slaughtered and enslaved, but even I know the Spanish and Portuguese were vile, it in the name of god too. Portugal was mighty, look at them now, UK in a bit I think.

The people of Spain don't want to deal anymore with their entire Royalty. Felipe, barely hangs in to what meager semblance of "respectibillity" , influence and titles because his Father, Juan Carlos was forcibly given the boot by the Spanish government to either abdicate to his son, or be prosecuted on a horrible laundry list of ongoing corruption. He should have gone to jail

Now Felipe, the wife, and the pretty girls smile pleasingly for the cameras and pray to God, the people and government of Spain don't get tired of them either and take away all their shiny nice things

I don't blame the President of Mexico at all- who the fuck would be *honored* to have him around?

Felipe has a 66 percent approval rating

The honor derives from the fact he is the country’s head of state, just like other heads of state who will attend.

R107 the Indians did the same. The Aztecs own entire tribes and sacrificed them.

The first years of the conquest were indeed bad and cruel but afterwards the Indians assimilated and abandon their religion which had human sacrifice as an essential component not to mention cannibalism,being human meat the main ingredient of pozole.

Many Indians were burned and tortured but so were many Spanish gay men too.

Also, spaniards could not have been successful without the help of many other Indian tribes who were suffering under the oppression of the Aztecs.

I think this has backfired on her.

Lots mocking her, asking how important the Sheinbaum family was during the Aztec empire.