Transgender Question

They either transitioned without bottom surgery or they went on pretending to be the gender they're not in everyday life. It's not rocket science.

They had eccentrics, like this one who had ample connections to endless celebrities of one sort or another on both sides of the Atlantic.

Earrings.

Caftans.

A family friend (college buddy of my dad's) transitioned in dress and name by the early 1970s. I do not think she had any surgery, but it was not something that was discussed. I just knew to call her Teri.

I was told that Teri had health issues; and unfortunately committed suicide in the 1980s. I imagine her life was especially difficult transitioning in the 1970s. There was less information on trans issues 5 decades ago than there is now.

Sissies and bulldaggers.

What we now know is that Jazz Jennings was a guinea pig. One of the first to receive puberty blockers as a child. Her bottom surgery was botched and she now has no feeling in her genitals and is unable to achieve orgasm. She suffers from depression and eating disorders.

People believing they're the "opposite gender" is a 20th-century invention. Nobody is the "opposite gender". Some people these days may think they are for various psychological reasons, but Jazz Jennings is aware deep down that he is really a man. Jazz never claimed to be the "opposite gender" - this is something that adults pushed onto him when he was a small child because he was a bit "feminine" and his mother was worried he would grow up to be gay (and he is indeed a gay man today, even if he's not allowed to admit it and his body has been destroyed).

My father grew up with a kid named Eduardo. For years he'd tell us stories of their adventures in the old neighborhood.

One day, we were watching Drag Race and my father, in the early stages of dementia, turned to me and said, "You remember my friend Eduardo? Well, when we grew up, he lived as a woman." You could've knocked me over with a feather. My parents had me late, so my dad is up there in age. Eduardo would've made his transition in the 60's, I suppose.

Eduardo has an unusual last name. I just googled them(?) and they were easy to find. Still going by the name Eduardo, according to public records. I wonder what happened to the transition.

Your confused r7. There is sex and there is gender. Sex is Male / Female , Gender is Man / Woman. Sex is a biological fact and can’t be changed. Gender is a construct of society that can change and shift over time based on what a society deems are masculine traits attributed to males and feminine traits attributed to females.

There can be no transex, just transgender. And Transgender people can only make aesthetic physical changes to their body to reflect the accepted societal ideas of what a man / woman is. They cannot become male or female.

[quote] People believing they're the "opposite gender" is a 20th-century invention.

That's simply not true. There are many examples--here are two of the most well studied:

[quote] There was less information on trans issues 5 decades ago than there is now.

There was less information on trans in 2000 than there is now. I always wonder if Prince was trans but was too black and too religious to accept it.

I've never met a trans person who didn't have severe mental health problems bigger than their so-called gender dysmorphia.

Another example:

And another:

So, r9, what you're saying is that Jazz Jennings is a homosexual male who has had his body mutilated to apparently resemble that of a woman because of socially constructed ideas about behavioural traits?

If sex and gender are two different things, then what is the point of "transitioning" to resemble the other sex?

R11, are you saying that Prince was a woman?

You can read stories of women trying to pass as men throughout history, usually in an attempt to have a career or something out of the ordinary.

For those few examples above of men living as women - they were usually protected by their wealth. I don't think it would have been possible for the working class man.

There is no rationality to gender ideology. It's a belief system that exists outside of rational Western philosophy based on reason. It's a mental disorder.

They were transvestites or transsexuals. Some transexuals had lots of surgery, some had very little. Gender affirming surgery was performed in Weimar Berlin, OP. That will soon be 100 years ago.

Do you know you are typing on "the Internet" where you can find all sorts of information? And nowadays, you can ask "AI" to find the information for you, if you are too lazy or too simpleminded to know how to find information on your own.

They dealt with it, in part because they weren't surrounded by a community of activists who told them their lives weren't worth living unless they had drastic surgery.

There's always been cross dressers and I assume that was how many people acted on it, if they could.

There was no such thing as "gender-affirming surgery" in Weimar Berlin, r19. There were experiments in surgery that was supposed to result in a sex change (although it often resulted in a lot of harm to the patient). The patients were most likely homosexuals, who believed that they must be a "man trapped in a woman's body" or a "woman trapped in a man's body" if they were attracted to their own sex, following on from the idea of the German psychiatrist Richard von Krafft-Ebing, who came up with the idea that homosexuals were "inverts", i.e. men with apparently female traits and women with apparently male traits. Since you like looking things up online, you can easily find this on Krafft-Ebing's Wikipedia page:

[quote] Krafft-Ebing proposed a theory of homosexuality as biologically anomalous and originating in the embryonic and fetal stages of gestation, which evolved into a "sexual inversion" of the brain.

Let's also not overlook the fact that medical experiments in Weimar Germany were taking place in a context where eugenics - a Nazi favourite - was becoming increasingly popular and "sex changes" were part of that trend.

Hormonal therapy, two years of pre-op psychiatric care and three surgeries.

R15 I have no clue as to what Jazz Jennings sexuality is. But jazz Jennings is biologically a male who underwent surgery to appear as a woman. But however is not a female.

A better question to ask r15, and absolutely not in a snarky way, is why do you care so much? I ask myself this question when confronted with the transgender question. Why do you care so much to insist on absolute definitions of what other people claim that they are experiencing? How does it affect your life?

R23 That's such a stupid argument. I'm not black but I have an opinion on segregation. I'm not a woman but I have an opinion on abortion. Do you only care about things that affect your life? Or, like a normal person, do you care about other things?

Trans ideology is harmful to lesbians and gay men as well as to all women and to society as a whole, r23.

As a supposedly gay person, how do you feel when you hear Jazz - when his subconscious is freed - admit he's gay and too scared to come out to his family because they will reject him? The family that transed him, most probably because he was too "effeminate" as a three year old.

And let's not forget the irreversible damage that trans ideology and practice does to children and young people, a large number of whom are gay and confused.

I have absolutely no idea, OP; why are you even asking me?

[quote]Trans ideology is harmful to lesbians and gay men as well as to all women and to society as a whole

LoL, r25, keep trolling. Any other right wing talking points you want to add?

As McCoy said to Spock in The Voyage Home:

McCoy: "Perhaps we can cover some philosophical ground. Life. Death. Life...you really have gone where no one has gone before..."

Spock: "...It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame of reference."

McCoy: "...you mean I have to die to discuss your insights on death..."

Whenever someone states they believe they're the opposite gender, I think about this discussion.

[quote]Trans ideology is harmful to lesbians and gay men as well as to all women and to society as a whole

I happen to think there is a lot of truth to this, and I'm as far from "right wing" as possible. It's very dangerous for people who consider themselves liberal or left wing to feel they have to agree 100 percent with every belief generally espoused by those groups. And if you can't see how trans ideology can be considered homophobic at least in some cases, you need to educate yourself further.

R6 Jazz's mother, Jeanette Blochinsky, should be charged with Child Abuse for what she did to her son, Jaron. Wimpy lawyer husband should be charged as an accomplice. Her sons, Sander and Griffen don't come across as the butchest kids on the block.

R24, of course I care. I am not saying it's wrong to care. You are just going SO hard in this thread to prove a point, all I am asking, seriously, is why you care so much. I am not saying don't care. But if your reasons are valid and not rooted in some other issue you maybe carrying around, go right ahead.

I just know that when I am really upset with someone, or really focused on proving some random point that is outside of myself, I question why first. And sometimes finding THAT answer is more beneficial to me in the long run than chasing waterfalls on anonymous websites about random issues that have nothing to do with me.

If Amy Schneider of "Jeopardy" fame is a woman, why did she marry a woman? She could have stayed a man and married the same woman. or is she now a Lesbian?

The 100% REAL answer as to why R24, R25 and R26 is going so hard is this - The fear of being catagorized as a weirdo by society after so many years of advancements in acceptance for gays in popular culture. NOW after all of that time, we are being labled as groomers, and pedophiles and being marginalized again. THAT is the issue. And I get it. The Trans movement is so vocal and we all go lumped into it. But just as many minorities in America are seeing now after Trump, a good swath of the country never really liked you anyway.

But trying to get to the bottom of Jazz Jennings sexuality is not going to change any of that for you. Society is not going to pat you on the back and call you "One of the Good Ones."

As it has always been, you gotta learn to love yourself, because acceptance by other people, as you see, is fickle and you can't base your happiness in life on that.

R33, Sexuality, Sex, Gender are ALL different things. That is your answer.

Mostly they dressed in fright drag, were pitied and most grew out of it.

Out grew it R36? Most likely hid it and only did it in the dark at home.

[quote]Your confused [R7]. There is sex and there is gender. Sex is Male / Female , Gender is Man / Woman. Sex is a biological fact and can’t be changed. Gender is a construct of society that can change and shift over time...

I'm afraid it is YOU who is confused! Very VERY confused!

All I know is that whether being Transgender is a mental issue or not, I do not know - I don't experience it. I just find myself asking them similar questions that were asked of me - "Why can't you just?" "What can't you just like women?" I don'tknow, because I don't. I know that is my personal experience. I don't understand the Transgender experience. But I am in no ways going to speak for them or explain THEIR expereinces to THEM.

Are you just going to leave that potato of a comment there on the ground where you left it R38, or are you going to explain your reasoning?

[quote]A better question to ask [R15], and absolutely not in a snarky way, is why do you care so much?

Why do I, or anyone "care so much"? Wow, what a dumb question.

I care so much because a psychological and societal norm is being codified by a rabid coterie of damaged nutjobs who are destroying the lives of non-heteronormative/gay children in the name of their own perverted brand of "progressivism", which of course is complete nonsense.

I will take every opportunity I have to vociferously condemn these freaks from their gay conversion therapy and blatant misogyny carried out under the guise of LGBTQIA+ quality and the severe bullying that accompanies it.

^ you should have led with your last comment R41, so we know exactly where you stand, instead of baiting people into commenting on what Jazz Jennings might jizz too. Now you're done and we know.

[quote]There is sex and there is gender.

That crap was made up by a psychologist who was a pedophile.

[quote]Sexuality, Sex, Gender are ALL different things. That is your answer.

Sex and gender are the same thing. This has been proven. The idiot who came up with that nonsense was a pedophile who was responsible for a trans person killing themselves because they weren’t trans at all and he had them mutilated.

Transgendering is a Mental Illness. Seek psychiatric care instead of destroying your body.

Gender - as something that is allegedly unrelated to biological sex - is delusional nonsense. It's no more real than astrology or the supposed power of mediums - pseudoscientific garbage that supposedly gives those who claim to identify with it an extra-special quality. Males can never be women in any way, shape or form. There's no such thing as being a biological male but a woman according to gender. Liking pink, wearing makeup or being "demure" do not make a male a woman.

I remember Jazz did hypnotherapy on the show and was visualizing being an openly gay man while supposedly under hypnosis.

Johns Hopkins stopped doing bottom surgeries for many years because they found that they weren’t helping patients that much and the risks far outweighed the minor benefits. They resumed doing the procedures within the last 10 years.

We had a thread here not long ago about a 65 year old man who had a SRS vaginaplasty and bragging about his new pussy. The guy was into extreme body modification and had a penile bisection not long before. He didn’t have any kind of gender dysphoria, he had a fetish and found a surgeon who would operate on a 65 year old man with no diagnosis of dysphoria.

Does Jazz have to pee thru a tube or have a bag? If everything is dead down there, it the bladder involved?

R44 sex and gender are not the same. Gender is a societal construction. Gender involves the ideas of what makes a man vs. a woman. There was a time when it was thought effeminate men were men who loved women too much. There was a time where heels were worn, invented for men to accentuate the strength of their calves. There was a time where rich and wealthy men routinely wore wigs. So a man in heels, a wig who pranced about was seen as manly. Obviously that’s not the case in our world today. Societal ideas of men and women, Gender roles, shift over time. Sex is constant and never changes.

So someone can FEEL they are born in the wrong gender (which is based on that society’s particular idea of what a man and woman is) and that most likely is mental - because gender is a construct. BUT they can’t change their sex. They can alter their bodies and what they wear to reflect the accepted norms of particular societies idea of gender - (men wear flannel, women wear lace)

The idea of a Gender hasn’t even existed that long. So you can’t say they have always been the same. It was created as a companion to the idea of a Sex.

Sexuality is who you’re sexually attracted to. So a male (sex) can be attracted to a woman (gender) and a female (sex) can be attracted to a man (gender). That’s why you can have a lesbian attracted to a young Justin Bieber who is a male (sex) but presented as a young woman (gender). That’s how you have males (sex) chasing after some transgenfer women (gender) who live the role of a hyper feminine woman.

Calling something garbage r46, doesn’t make your argument stronger. It does the opposite actually by cancelling out whatever else you have to say (even if it’s correct) by any reasonable, logical person. It’s a trigger for the reader that stupidity is about to follow.

[quote]Liking pink, wearing makeup or being "demure" do not make a male a woman.

Actually it does, since a Woman in a given society is a construct of ideas. It doesn’t make a male a female.

I have a transgender friends who has been married for years, lunches with the other husband’s wives. If you didn’t know, you’d never tell. Society accepts them as women because they live their lives according to society’s IDEA of what a woman is. They are biologically male, and that will never change. When we go out Makes who are attracted to women hit on her. Females attracted to women hit on her. Makes attracted to men do not. She is a woman, she is not female.

Having said everything I’ve said, I don’t agree with the whole pronoun soup. And honestly I don’t agree with surgery to modify your body. That seems to only reinforce gender norms - women have tits and wear heels. Transgender people want acceptance, and whatever that means doing to their bodies, over understanding. It seems that if they truly wanted to move the needle, they’d leave their bodies alone and say some women are born with penises and some men are born with vaginas. But it’s not my fight and either way it’s a hard row to hoe. And who am I to tell them to simmer down and go back into hiding to make my life as a gay man fighting for the same acceptance easier?

"That’s why you can have a lesbian attracted to a young Justin Bieber who is a male (sex) but presented as a young woman (gender)." - Go fuck yourself, you stupid homophobic piece of shit, at r49. Also, since when was Justin Bieber trans? You are talking pure shit.

As a lesbian, I am only attracted to my own sex, i.e. females (aka women) and it has nothing to do with "presenting" or haircuts. No, lesbians are not attracted to people of the male sex.

[quote]bulldaggers

Please don't use that term, R5 -- it really does wound.

To drive the point home that gender is a construct, even Females alter their bodies with bigger tits and bigger asses to become what society considers more womanly. Breast cancer survivors with double mastectomies are still females, but they’ll have reconstructive surgery to feel more like a what - a woman.

R50, when I call gender ideology garbage, I am not trying to put forward an argument but state a fact. Gender ideology is complete garbage - and that's a fact. A male person can never become a woman, and a certain haircut or "presentation" doesn't make him a woman. The notion that there is a "gender identity" that is unrelated to biological sex is pure, unadulterated, complete garbage. And that's a fact.

OP is also:

*Nancy Pelosi leaked video on Trump's January 6 insurrection: "He's got to pay a price."*

[quote]"Insurrection:" does not appear on any legal document in this case. This is a tabloid phrase.

So it’s an actual studied FACT r56 that it’s all garbage? In what book? Or are you just overstating your own personal opinion?

"They are biologically male, and that will never change. When we go out Makes who are attracted to women hit on her. Females attracted to women hit on her." - R51 is another one who spouts pure, unadulterated garbage. Perhaps these "Makes" and these females who are attracted to women and who hit on your friend are bisexual. Because lesbians are not attracted to men, such as your biological male trans-identified friend.

Isn't it funny how transwomen are apparently always "hit on"? They must be hit on more than anyone else, because no one else talks about being "hit on" as much as they do. Perhaps someone innocently said "excuse me" to them because they want to get past this hulking male body that's standing in the way and they interpret that as being "hit on".

R59, I grew up in NYC. That indeed happens all the time. Str8 men LOVE trans women, seek them out like bees to honey. These trans women are hyper feminine, have altered their bodies to reflect everything the male gaze adores. They play the ultra feminine role of letting a man be a man while they are the woman to be taken. It’s a win win. They could get laid by different guys you and I would find hot every night if they wanted too. Plus they don’t get pregnant. If you wanted a living breathing blowup doll, what’s not to like?

R59 in my experience, from the many years I’ve witnessed it getting hit in means getting fucked.

In the world of reality, r58. Nowhere in any definition of the term in any human society ever in the world has "woman" meant "person who adheres to gender stereotypes of a woman even if male".

For a start, to respond also to the ridiculous argument at r55: breasts are apparently a "gender stereotype" of the "social construct" of woman. But breasts only belong to the female sex. A female who has a breast enhancement or reduction is simply enlarging or reducing breasts she already has. A female cancer sufferer who has breast reconstruction after a mastectomy is getting a replacement for the breast that she already had but lost. A male who "identifies as a woman" does not have breasts, never had breasts and never will have breasts, regardless of whatever fake breasts he tries to acquire. In this case, breasts are something that belongs only to the female sex. Therefore, the gender stereotypes and social attitudes that exist around breasts relate only to women. There is no such thing as being a male by sex and a woman by gender. Gender is social based on ideas of how the two sexes should look and behave - it can never be separated from sex.

Sure, r61, lesbians are just desperate to get fucked by transbian dick.

"If you wanted a living breathing blowup doll, what’s not to like?" - R61, straight men want pussy. Transwomen - however much they try to emulate caricatures of real women - will never have a pussy. Perhaps these "straight" men who "hit on" transwomen are looking for dick, but don't want to admit it.

Apologies, r64 is in response to r60.

Straight men want pussy, r61, something transwomen will never have.

R62 has obviously never seen a fat man at the beach. A tirry by any other name is still the same. Men have breast tissue. We just don’t have triple Gs.

R63 I am talking about men. And yes quite a few men are. As a little experiment for anyone down for it. Go onto Doublelist and leave an ad describing yourself. You will wake up to 30 responses from men wanting to hook up. Most of whom, from their description, would shock you.

And R62, you just confirmed everything I said in your last sentence, even though to contradicted yourself in the end.

R12 YES. Thank. You. I've never met a transgender person who didn't have accompanying mental health issues. They're all too happy to disclose them to you early on, as if they're badges of honor.

I know a woman who always stated she wanted to be a guy and it felt right. Back when she was young it wasn’t something that was accepted and there weren’t a lot of resources. She has accepted it and lived her life but she always says she still feels like a man on the inside.

Live as you like, but for those who believe in science: the earth goes around the sun, evolution is settled fact, climate change is real, and one cannot "change" sex. But if it makes someone happier to live as the opposite sex, they shouldn't be penalized.

[quote]Str8 men LOVE trans women, seek them out like bees to honey.

That's rather a gross generalization and exaggeration, don't you think?

[quote]She always says she still feels like a man on the inside.

I have never understood what people mean when they say things like this.

People had sex change operations in the 1950s. It was rare but men did transition to women and led lives as females. The plot of Dog Day Afternoon Involves a man robbing a bank to pay for his lover’s sex change operation. It just wasn’t as common as today. Plus there has been a huge explosion in female to male transition which always was very rare. Why this is happening now?

I think the increase in females transitioning is very suspect. Seems almost like a mass hysteria event.

[quote]I have a transgender friends who has been married for years, lunches with the other husband’s wives. If you didn’t know, you’d never tell.

Gurl, please!

ANOTHER huge lie the gender identity crowd tells themselves about the "trans". Hon, we can ALWAYS tell, moreover it is beyond insulting and destroys your own argument that "trans" who somehow pass are more "stunning and brave", or somehow more deserving of praise or helping the cause than those who don't. The fact is they just make YOU feel less ridiculous than the sad, severely non-passable men dressed as women do.

Trannys....

[quote]Plus there has been a huge explosion in female to male transition

Your source, r73?

Marry me r41.

Thank you, r76. There is much more publicity about trans than there was in earlier decades, but there is no evidence that hundreds of thousands of young men and women are going through these procedures. In regard to surgeries, it seems that most literature says that somewhere around 3000 are performed each year. To simplify the math, let's say that 3300 have some altering surgery each year. That is 1 out of 100,000 people per year! Hardly a flood gate. As a comparison 220,000 nose jobs are performed each year. 300,000 boob jobs are done each year or 100 TIMES more than trans surgery.

PS. Men have breasts. And men can and do get breast cancer. Men have less breast tissue than women. But look down at your own chests. Do you have nipples? What's their purpose?

People here are wrapping themselves into knots here over issues that are philosophical rather than practical. Sexual differentiation does not exist in many species exactly the way that it does in most mammals. Lots of things in nature can change sex more or less on a whim. 30% of non-insectoid animals can change their sex. Frogs, many species of fish, some species of snakes, beluga whales. Evolution is a very strange process. Things get preserved and reworked over millions of years into the most unlikely other unrelated things.

I think that we all understand that in some clinics and some urban areas, trans got pushed and promoted heavily in the decade 2010-2020. That was never a wide-spread phenomenon and because of publicity and push-back even those centers have pulled back on their push. But overall, most of us are not affected in the least by trans or by trans ideology. We don't encounter trans people regularly, (on a day-to-day basis) and if it were such a wide-spread phenomenon, gay people would certainly encounter it more frequently than straight people.

R76 I'm not R73, but that is too easy. It's all over the internet from the NYT, The Guardian and medical sources. I don't know why it is, but it definitely is.

r79, you're talking about the most famous clinic dealing with this in Great Britain. The great increase happened (as I said above) in the decade of 2010-2020 and as the chart above clearly shows, had leveled off by the end of the decade.

R72 I know exactly what you mean. BUT they feel it very strongly. It’s like when people don’t “get” being attracted to the same sex. Ultimately can we actually say being gay isn’t a mental illness?

Actually r74, that wasn’t the case at all.

[quote]She has accepted it and lived her life but she always says she still feels like a man on the inside.

There is no such thing. You feel “alive”. There is no feeling like a man other than feeling sore balls or getting your dick stuck in your underwear. There is no “feeling like a man” inside. There is only “feeling like a man” outside.

[quote]Ultimately can we actually say being gay isn’t a mental illness?

Yes we can say that. Not everything is about pregnancy and procreation. There is no reason why we exist. Children are merely byproducts of intercourse between the opposite sex. There is no harm in being attracted to another person or having sex with them. We are not mentally ill because we don’t want to procreate or because we are attracted to the same sex. Are you mentally ill because you don’t like mushrooms? Please give it a rest with that bigoted crap. Apples and oranges.

Gay men never had a problem with Trans people until recently. We never denied them their definition of their experience.

And rightfully so because it seems as if they want to redefine OUR experience as gay people which affects the way the world accepts us now. THAT is the real issue - not whether trans is real or not.

Going back to the drawing board now and saying it doesn’t exist and that it’s a mental illness, saying that they are crazy, driving them back into the closet is not going to work - it’s going to backfire.

We need to come up with a better way to address the real issue between the two communities.

And going back to the idea of gender vs. Sex, you never hear anyone say “be a male”. They say “be a man.” Because a man is something you become. It’s something you can become by embracing society’s ideas of what a man is. Little girls who do boyish things were called tomboys because they ACTED like boys. Gender is performance, sex is biological and cannot be changed. Gender ideas of what a Man and a Woman are do change. You become a woman by acting like a woman. You don’t become a female by acting like a woman.

How do you suggest we do that, r84? Honest question.

It's amazing how dim people like r85 are. R85, have you ever heard anyone say "be a man" to a woman? What you are talking about is sex role stereotypes - what you would call gender - whereby men (i.e. males) or women (i.e. females) are expected to behave in certain socially prescribed ways according to their sex.

As for tomboys, nobody ever believed that little girls who are more into running around and wearing more practical clothes, aka tomboys, are literally boys. Tomboys are always girls.

(Well, I say "nobody", but you can be sure that the trans lobby of recent times is trying to trans tomboys.)

"Construction of gender" and "construction of Identity" are abstractions, theories, that come out of mid-20th century French and a bit of German philosophy. I went to Brown and studied all that in the early 90s and it was a lot of fun. Intellectual games. Political economy, art, literature shifted eventually into deconstructing everything and anything. Using tools from one domain to "interrogate" another. Why not psychoanalyse colonialist hegemony? Blah blah blah. It was showing off and having fun with one's brain.

Professors in the 80s and 90s were very clever but the problem was, their students, who decided to enter Critical Theory and its descendent domains, in academia, were less clever. And those are the somewhat personality disordered professors who taught in the oughts and the teens. Even less capable students. Would you be proud to have helped produce Alok Vaid-Menon? Columbia professors encouraged Mattress Girl to smear her psychosis all over campus for a year, under the guise of performance art and sexual politics. How is that Ivy League excellence? Against an innocent man, by the way.

The major mistake these domains and academics made was to remove the French sense of intellectual gamesmanship and make these theories grim, and binary (right and wrong) and political and personal. To make these studies into missions and to let average brains study their own personality disorders and grievances in university under the "authority" that a University department confers.

This filtered out through social media in the 21st C to help bolster entire echo chambers of woke nonsense, with shoddy social science, shoddy health science. Even business studies. I've met halfwit professors in business schools, doing some form of critical theory!! and thinking they are the bees knees. In the 2020s. Sad. I've read their research. It's thin gobbledygook.

The French mostly abandoned all this by 2000.

America created entire fiefdoms filled with this nonsense and helped create and give legitimacy to "activist" nimrods such as "Queers for Palestine".

My god, what have we done!

It's all well and good to do a little navel gazing but Mary, please! What a waste to build your entire life in some bizarre echo chamber of hot house identities and grievances du jour. Angry about everyone not as "progressive" (arcane) as yourselves. Rewriting history to support your personal narratives of victimhood or heroes.

This is a kind of bourgeois rot on society, involving people who have the time and money for such nonsense.

[quote]Professors in the 80s and 90s were very clever but the problem was, their students, who decided to enter Critical Theory and its descendent domains, in academia, were less clever.

This is so true. Entire departments dominated by mediocre minds.

As for graduates in those fields, I'm reminded of the scene in "High Art" where the assistant editor at an art magazine chats with the receptionist:

"How'd you get that job? I mean, what did you have to do to get it?"

"What did I have to *do* to get my job...?"

"No, I mean like... what was your background, what was your major?"

"Uh, critical theory."

"Really, that's a major?"

"Yeah, it's like cultural studies or semiotics. Philosophy, you know? Foucault, Derrida, Kristava, whatever."

"Oh, pretty cerebral, huh?"

"No, it's actually really interesting. You'd probably really like it."

Well critical theory could be preparation for any job. If the person is otherwise can-do, clever and social. It's a mistake to stay in it looking at your own navel for decades.

My take is that the definition of gender is, of course, the socially constructed part of sex, and this concept takes about 10 minutes to sink in, and then what? Sex, biology, is the fact and cannot be changed. What "gender" one is, (or can gender be changed from "male" to "female" is moot in the 2020s when most educated people accept that gender is a continuum anyway. Gender is always an abstraction or concept, while genetic sex is not abstract.

R88, great analysis. Things seem to have peaked in the US as well. Look at the Democratic Convention. Maybe I missed it but I heard zero about transgender rights or the usual who’s the biggest victim of the patriarchy. Gaza college protests are not helping either.

For those of you who read French: Éric Marty's "Le sexe des Modernes: Pensée du Neutre et théorie du genre" does a good job of reinterpreting French-influenced American gender and queer theory for a contemporary French readership. The book was published in 2021 and, as far as I know, has not (yet) been translated into English.

R80 Everywhere I look online I see exponential increases in teens/young adults reporting gender dysphoria and requesting treatment. My own niece (now nephew) started cross hormones and had a bilateral mastectomy right after graduation from college. Prior to college, she showed absolutely no indication of gender discordant behavior. She was aways the little girl in pink and purple sequin dresses/frilly cloths and kept her hair long and in curls. I think the way this is presenting plus the sheer numbers, does require some questioning and research to determine why. I can't think of any other situation were that wouldn't be expected. If people suddenly started developing a specific disease or type of cancer at these numbers you can bet there would be a massive investigation to determine why.

Psychosis can spread by the media, specially Internet. The psychosis starts and then in real life they get reinforcement and support to continue, rather than common sense and medical caution. Oh well, adults of 18 can do what they want with their bodies. Some might lob off their dicks or tits. Others might pursue extreme bodybuilding or weightless. Others cover their entire bodies with tattoos. And maybe also lob off their docks.

typing on train. especially. weight-loss. cocks, not docks. 😵‍💫

[quote]She has accepted it and lived her life but she always says she still feels like a man on the inside.

This is the fundamental flaw in the reasoning. If you've NEVER been a man, how could you know what it's like to feel like a man?

It basically argues that application of stereotypes of being a man (or woman) are correct while arguing that since you do not fit the stereotype of being a man (or woman), you must be the other; e.g., I don't exhibit any of the stereotypical female behaviors and exhibit all the male stereotypical behaviors, so I must be a male.

You cannot argue that the stereotypes are both correct and incorrect in order to validate your argument.

Even Quentin Crisp was posthumously declared to be trans, rather than simply an exceptionally effeminate gay man.

You can argue whatever you want if you are an attention whore and if you seek membership in a very special sparkle pony tribe

[quote]Most of us are not affected in the least by trans or by trans ideology. We don't encounter trans people regularly, (on a day-to-day basis) and if it were such a wide-spread phenomenon, gay people would certainly encounter it more frequently than straight people.

The fact that gay people don't "encounter trans people regularly" in their day-to-day lives does NOT mean we are not affected by trans ideology, and I hope you have enough brains to understand why if you think about it for a moment or two.

[quote]Gay men never had a problem with Trans people until recently. We never denied them their definition of their experience. And rightfully so because it seems as if they want to redefine OUR experience as gay people which affects the way the world accepts us now. THAT is the real issue - not whether trans is real or not.

Excellent point.

Unhappy people were kept from being medically turned into mutilated, still unhappy people. Also the brainwashing pipeline wasn't installed, so "You're too butch/effeminate, you really must be the opposite sex" wasn't a thing. (Please don't correct me on sex vs gender, because if transing only affected gender, according to trans logic, no surgery would ever be necessary.)

[quote]Unhappy people were kept from being medically turned into mutilated, still unhappy people.

Exactly. I have a huge problem with the whole trans movement, maybe partly because the first trans person I ever knew personally -- about 30 or 40 years ago, so they were really in the vanguard -- transitioned from male to female AND THEN BACK AGAIN in an effort to feel good about themself, when obviously mental/emotional problems were the issue rather than "being born in the wrong body."

In decades past most men who transitioned to female were gay and quite effeminate. Some straight guys as well but not the majority. Now I see a big increase in straight males transitioning. They often have wives and stay married. Do these men usually have their penis removed?

No they don't because they love playing with themselves. They're autogynephiles, r103. Playing "girl" gets them off.

Love when trannys come here and have their rot pockets handed to them.

[quote]Love when trannys come here

They don't, r105. So all of the anti-trans nonsense spewed in these threads is nothing but noise. Sensible, rational people don't give a shit, LoL.

Back in the day, affirming another’s delusional beliefs was less common.

[quote]Back in the day, affirming another’s delusional beliefs was less common.

So, r107, you choose to be regressive. Not a surprise.

At my nephew's christening, two people turned up in mens suits. My BIL cos he'd been told to by my sister. And a "transman" friend of my sister. She just looked like a fat lesbian wearing man clothes. It's all about performance.

R106 Gay men are not stupid enough to support the foul mentals.

[quote]At my nephew's christening, two people turned up in mens suits. My BIL cos he'd been told to by my sister....

Ummm......WHAT???!!!!!

[quote]I think the increase in females transitioning is very suspect. Seems almost like a mass hysteria event.

Which teenage girls are especially susceptible to.

People have a right to transition and other people have a right to be uncomfortable.

[quote]and other people have a right to be uncomfortable

Do they also have the right to troll, r113?

[quote]you gotta learn to love yourself, because acceptance by other people, as you see, is fickle and you can't base your happiness in life on that.

This is what these poor "trans kids" need to be taught. They (and indeed all of us) would be better off if they learned to love and accept themselves the way they are. Attempting to change your gender / sex won't make you any happier.

[quote]and other people have a right to be uncomfortable

Just as they have the right to be uncomfortable around gay people, r113. It's not about the feelings, r113, it's how you act on them. But you know that.

[quote]Attempting to change your gender / sex won't make you any happier.

As Tim Walz said, r115, mind your own business.

R177 Go dialate mental.

Banned from Kiwi Farms? (as if...)

Tim Walz is probably going to forget a lot of the things he said in the past during this election campaign.

LOh dear, r118. Well...you tried.

No human can change sex. And none ever have.

Was Kiwi farms rife with radical lesbians? Or straight white women?

[quote]So, [R107], you choose to be regressive. Not a surprise.

Newsflash! There is absolutely NOTHING less "progressive" than swallowing the Gender Identity Movement's backwash. Transing gay children and the rancid misogyny of letting men take over women-only spaces is the most regressive movement afoot today.

You sound completely backward and addled.

R124, I agree wholeheartedly. I only hope the madness will eventually end, hopefully sooner rather than later.

Doctors and parents transitioning kids should be charged with child abuse.

In past times, someone who felt they were born in the wrong body and pursued transition to the other sex was considered a transexual, especially if there was medical intervention in achieving it to the extent that science allows. Often the goal of such patients was to pass as the target sex and live their lives as such relatively seamlessly. Many (not all) did so with limited fanfare as the idea was to move on from their original sex and be happy.

Nowadays, it seems the concept of "trans" has blurred lines for many, especially the young. A child who might experiment wearing clothes of the opposite sex may be considered "trans" by parents or by themselves. Often, these kids might grow up to be gay. Sometimes they might well grow up to be straight, and perfectly content with their birth gender or sex. The difference today is that such children might be sent down a road of medical transition that otherwise, in the past, would not have happened until adulthood, with lots of adult counseling and psychological care preceding that step.

Trans is an identity one feels. Feelings are never invalid.

R128 Nobofy buys that utter shit, here.

Back in the late 70s I used to grocery shop at the A&P at Ansley Mall in Atlanta. There was a tall (6'2" or so) red headed man who worked there and did pretty much anything needed. I think he might have been the manager or asst. manager. I notice at one point that I hadn't seen him in there in weeks. He would work the registers quite frequently. Then about 4 months later I went in, did my shopping and headed for a register. There was a new checkout lady at the aisle with the least people in line so I headed there. The closer I got to the belt to put my groceries on I could see that the tall red headed lady was actually the tall red headed man who I hadn't seen in months. She had a big head of lady's hair (obviously a wig since there was no way her hair could grow to that length in 4 months) and a face slathered in makeup. But once she started talking with that baritone voice I remembered so well I knew who she was. I just pretended nothing was any different. A couple weeks later I saw a lady I knew who worked there putting some stock on a shelf and I asked her about Miss tall redhead and she confirmed that he had gone away to have sex reassignment surgery.

In those days that was pretty wild. Sadly she was long gone within 6 months of returning as a woman.

[quote]Trans is an identity one feels. Feelings are never invalid.

Even IF that's true, it's natural to question why it seems SO MANY more people have those feelings now than before. And yes, maybe it's partly due to changing times and attitudes, but maybe it's also at least partly due to a form of brainwashing and mass hysteria.

And again, what EXACTLY does a woman mean when she says she feels like she's "really a man?" Does she mean she likes to wear men's clothing? That she is sexually attracted to other women? That her personality is more aggressive than passive? That she prefers the color pink to blue? Many of us understand that you can still be a woman even if all of those things apply to you, and to feel otherwise is just a regressive attempt to conform to traditional gender norms.

[quote]but maybe it's also at least partly due to a form of brainwashing and mass hysteria.

LoL, r131, gender transition isn't a cult, no matter how much you want to label it as such.

[quote]it's natural to question why it seems SO MANY more people have those feelings now than before.

Where are you getting your stats/numbers from?

It may not be a cult officially, but the movement does have some elements of that, and so does the press coverage of it.

All these tired anti trans arguments that are just rehashed from old anti gay arguments. And on a gay site. The real cult on display is terminally unhappy incel trolls wasting their lives being brainwashed by right wing Reddit and twitter. Go outside. Meet a trans person, they’re nice people.

If it's a cult, r133, who's the leader? All cults have a leader.

R120 already caught in a few lies and sat next to Kamala like her Support Dog.

[quote]Where are you getting your stats/numbers from?

2022: "The number of young people who identify as transgender has nearly doubled in recent years."

R137 Way more than doubled according to most statistical data easily available online. I've already linked a couple of sources in previous posts.

Wow I wonder has the percentage of people that identify as gay gone up over time too? It’s a mass hysteria event!!!

Has the number of,people identifying as gay gone up as dramatically as the rate for female to male transitioning? I thought it had stayed fairly stable unless you add the new queer identities, nonbinary, asexual, bisexual, feeling different from straight people, pansexual etc.

We’re all born queer, the rest is window dressing!

R140 knock yourself out baby.

Jazz Jennings = confused & mislead gay man with no dick & fake tits.

The past tense of lead is not lead.

Fuck off, stink-ditch @ R144. I'm sure your festering wound needs a good cleansing.

Did I get that correct?

.....

In my day they were called Transvestites.

There has always been people with body dysmorphia, which has nothing to do with gender, they were like 0.05% of the population. The trans phenomena is completely culturally created. The large majority of them are girls frightened by puberty and adulthood or nobody adults, usually men, who need relevancy and meaning in their lives. I think the more accurate nomen clenture should be "men who think they are women" or "women who think they are men." Sorry, it is all complete insanity and bullshit.

"Female referrals, once a fraction of males, now made up 70 per cent: from 32 to 1,265. The number of teenage girls with gender dysphoria (ie profound discomfort with their biological sex) had risen by 5,000 per cent in 7 years."

Mmmm R149 that quote is comparing numbers from the first year of it being an NHS service. It’s dishonest. You do get that that’s not a meaningful statistic because of that right?

Lovely formatting tho

Look at what insane Trump is claiming now. He says schools are giving kids sex reassignment surgeries. Why hasn't this lunatic been locked up yet?

-----------------------

Trump Claims Schools Perform Gender Surgery: “Your Kid Goes To School, Comes Home With An Operation”

[quote] “But the transgender thing is incredible. Think of it. Your kid goes to school and comes home a few days later with an operation. The school decides what’s going to happen with your child and you know many of these childs [sic] 15 years later say, what the hell happened? Who did this to me? They say, who did this to me? It’s incredible.” – Trump, going on to tell the Moms For Liberty audience that public school boards are “like dictatorships.”

[quote] Trump then segued into the far-right claim that female Olympic gold medal-winning boxer Imane Khalif is transgender. “She’s fighting this person that transgendered, and the guy, boom, hit to a left. It was like, she got hit by a horse, and then she backed up.”

Anecdotes are not data, but here's mine. I'm 60, pre 2010 I personally knew 2 men who "had a sex change" as we used to put it. Both did so in the 90s. A second cousin, who later stated he had been secretly dressing up in his mother's clothes since he was a boy, did it in his late 40's after retiring from the military. A guy I went to college with, and who had married a woman, was in his early 30's. In the last 10 years 3 of my friends - all in different parts of the country, and not friends with each other, have had daughters transition. When they told their parents they were trans, two of the girls were around 12, (and one had / has other anxiety and social issues) the other around 18.

On an individual level, I don't begrudge anyone seeking happiness or living their lives as they see fit -- but as R127 stated there used to be a long period of psychological therapy as part of this process, and the transexuals were adults. Those aspects have changed radically, and one can objectively argue not for the better, for the individuals involved.

Why don’t we look at some actual statistics than rely on R153’s unsourced assertion that trans care is “objectively not for the better, for the individuals involved”.

[quote] A total of 27 studies, pooling 7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS, were included. The pooled prevalence of regret after GAS was 1% (95% CI <1%–2%). Overall, 33% underwent transmasculine procedures and 67% transfemenine procedures. The prevalence of regret among patients undergoing transmasculine and transfemenine surgeries was <1% (IC <1%–<1%) and 1% (CI <1%–2%), respectively.

Oh it’s less than 1%. Kinda takes the air out of those tires.

Re: R154. Are we to trust researchers who can't even spell "transfeminine"?

The r/detrans subreddit alone has 55K members

R154 - I said it could be “objectively argued” not that it “is objectively not” - kinda knocks the air out of your straw-man argument.

And I stand by my point - making the entire process shorter and easier does not necessarily make it better.

As to the statistics the three FTM kids I mentioned are all still under 25, two are still teenagers - nobody knows how they, or their cohort will feel ten years from now - but we don’t let those under 18 sign contracts or even buy a goddamn beer, so questioning the wisdom of some current trans movement is different than saying it should nit happen at all.

But nuance and discussion does not seem to be your strong suit.

^^ some of the wisdom of the current trans movement

I think much of it now is culture driven.

There are tiers of trans. The tiniest one are people who are intersex, were assigned a sex at birth, but have more affinity for the sex they weren’t assigned.

Then there is a smaller tier who, although not technically intersex, have the emotions and often the physical characteristics of the opposite sex. So for instance, a boy who’s extremely femme, has a very soft and feminine personality, and often has feminine features as well. Someone who comes to mind right away is Naomi Watts’ son Kai. He has always lived as a girl socially, and looks like one too.

But the trans acceptance movement has built a vehicle that many lost people can free ride on. These are misfits, often with an identity crisis, who just sort of jump on. They are the exhausting flavor of the trans movement. They know that they need to be treated with ultra-piety, they have free reign to scold you if you’re not treating them precisely as their feelings require, and that permits them to be the center of attention at all times.

These last specimens are the ones engendering so much hate and pushback right now.

As usual, in this modern world of ours, there are two extremist positions, and if you are somewhere in the middle, you are unpersoned.

If I explained my position to a neo-fash or radical anti-trans, they’d basically accuse me of every evil under the sun. I’d dirty be a woke cuck to the neo-fash, or I’d be a misogynist child abuser to the TERFs.

If I went to the trans-activists with my position, I’d be a literal monster out to drop every trans in a vat of acid.

In reality, I really want everyone to just have the right to live as they feel most comfortable. But it shouldn’t come at the subordination of basic rights of the enormous majority of people who aren’t trans.

[Quote] I’d dirty be a woke cuck

Weird autocorrect but strangely fitting 😂

[quote] The r/detrans subreddit alone has 55K members

And R156? It’s a subject online that trolls are obsessed with and Reddit is a site full of anonymous trolls. And ofc you’re familiar with it lol.

[quote] I said it could be “objectively argued” not that it “is objectively not” - kinda knocks the air out of your straw-man argument.

Your inclusion of “objective” reveals your own bias. Objectivity requires basis in statistics or sourcing or fact and your position supplied none of these so no it doesn’t make a difference to what I said. You may as well have said “objectively it can be argued that 2+2=3” and stand there with a dumb grin on your face.

[quote] As to the statistics the three FTM kids I mentioned are all still under 25

Oh lord. - also, people over 18 aren’t kids.

[quote] And I stand by my point - making the entire process shorter and easier does not necessarily make it better.

This is rather meaningless. Something could make a situation better in 99.9% of cases and you could still say it doesn’t “necessarily” make it better bc of the .1%. Think about the words you’re using and what they mean.

they kept their crazy to themselves and dressed up at home.

[quote]The prevalence of regret among patients undergoing transmasculine and transfemenine surgeries was <1%

That figure just doesn't sound believable to me, and I imagine at least some of the people who have trans surgeries do regret it but will not admit that publicly or to anyone conducting a study, out of sheer embarrassment.

[quote] That figure just doesn't sound believable to me,

Well when you’ve submitted yourself to enough anti trans online propaganda why would facts and statistics mean anything right? I mean, the information is only sourced from 27 separate reviews. Back to your safe space on Reddit maybe ;) that’ll make you feel better.

Both sides in this "debate," such as it is, are prone to cherry-picking. I agree that the emphasis on detransitioners among certain sections of the media must be frustrating to trans people, as those same media outlets would never invite a happy and well-adjusted trans person to tell their story. They have an agenda to sell, after all.

Maybe, in the not-too-distant future, we can simply accept that there are two diametrically opposed views of sex and gender: one where biological sex takes precedence over gender, and one where gender takes precedence over biological sex. There are perhaps scientific, philosopical, and moral arguments to be made on both sides. It could be like different religions co-existing: you are free to believe what you want, and I am free to believe what I want.

I do think that some of the most prominent trans activists have a brand of activism that seems particularly self-defeating, such as Erin Reed attacking the Cass Review that was published earlier this year mostly on methodology and mostly to Reed's own following (or people already sympathetic to Reed's arguments), while ignoring key findings of the report, such as the huge number of same-sex-attracted and autistic kids seeking gender affirmation in the UK. I also thought Judith Butler's "Who's Afraid of Gender?", which I read this summer, was surprisingly weak and dishonest about the fact that these ideas and concepts ("gender assigned at birth" and so on) are really very new, some less than 15 years old.

There should be a law that only allows those who have had full surgical reassignment to call themselves 'transgender'. Those who just dress like the opposite sex are just drag queens.

Everything is now grouped together under the 'trans' umbrella: the former transvestites, demi-boys, non-binaries, agender people, etc.

Fuck this OP.

Hey zipper tits, go dilate!

[quote]Maybe, in the not-too-distant future, we can simply accept that there are two diametrically opposed views of sex and gender: one where biological sex takes precedence over gender, and one where gender takes precedence over biological sex.

Except that some of us cannot understand the difference between "gender" and "sex" (as in male or female), no matter how clearly some of you think you're explaining it.

R170 you just described yourself as stupid.

If anyone involved in this thread can successfully explain to me how it's possible to be "born in the wrong body" I'll buy them dinner.

You're talking weird religious ideas. Being "being born in the wrong body" involves the idea of a gendered soul. Gender ideology is a weird cult. It has no basis in science.

I agree with you, R172. I think being "born in the wrong body" is only way some people can explain their feelings of non-conformity to traditional gender concepts, because they're not smart enough to understand those feelings in any other terms. And unfortunately, a great many people now aid and abet them in this nonsense.

[quote]There are tiers of trans. The tiniest one are people who are intersex, were assigned a sex at birth, but have more affinity for the sex they weren’t assigned.

Complete GIBBERISH!

You lack all comprehension of the various chromosomal disorders which are lumped together as "intersex", which is so nonspecific as to mean nothing, and NOBODY'S GENDER is "assigned at birth"! The use of that ridiculous phrase alone shows an adherence to our current modern trans agenda brainwashing! Quit making shit up!

Luckily, we can blame supervillain Judith Butler for EVERYTHING

[quote]R47 We had a thread here not long ago about a 65 year old man who had a SRS vaginaplasty and bragging about his new pussy. The guy was into extreme body modification and had a penile bisection not long before. He didn’t have any kind of gender dysphoria, he had a fetish and found a surgeon who would operate on a 65 year old man with no diagnosis of dysphoria.

Why shouldn’t he do what he wants with his body, and his life?

Well, I guess you can agree that it is their choice and leave it at that without agreeing that it’s the right thing to do.

[quote]Why shouldn’t he do what he wants with his body, and his life?

Why don't we let people with body dysmorphia engage physicians to cut off their limbs?

R177, R178 I guess I have less of an issue with people mutilating their bodies as they like in adulthood, but we shouldn't be praising it or funding it with healthcare dollars.

. Stories about Hollywood stars having trans kids are so common they barely cause a stir. Come up with a new way to get attention folks! Maybe people are moving on to the next fad whatever that will be.

Native Americans used to call them "two spirits" and they were thought of as special people who got to marry and dress as either gender. they were often looked upon as spiritual guides, healers and magical beings. I don't know where R7 got her history lesson, but it's wrong.

R181 I took Human Sexuality at City College in San Francisco several decades ago (~20-25 years ago). Two Spirit was given as an example of homosexuality in the Native American culture. Transsexual was also discussed, but was considered rare with examples as Christine Jorgensen being used. The one thing we have now that wasn't discussed at all is the concept of "non-binary". The instructor mentioned sexuality being a spectrum and that masculinity and femininity were a spectrum as well. The idea being that you could be a more feminine straight or gay male and still be a boy/man. You could be a masculine straight or lesbian female "tom-boy" and still be a girl/woman. This idea of actually being something that is neither male or female or a combination of both wasn't thought of yet except for perhaps a rare intersex person. There was no concept of using they/them pronouns or non-binary gender markers. Again, this was in liberal San Francisco! Boy have things changed!!

What is really the point of they/them pronouns. People will look at the person and most of the time they’ll be easily identifiable as male or female. It just makes talking about them annoying. And long articles using they/them to describe one individual are impossible to read, Sometimes a person is WTF is that a man or woman? But that is actually quite rare.

Maybe they’re intersex or maybe they feel they’re in an in between period. I think it is overused but it has its place in certain circumstances.

All of this sheer narcissism and the product of capitalism.

[quote]Maybe they’re intersex or maybe they feel they’re in an in between period. I

An "in-between period?" Do you mean like a "phase?"

[quote]Native Americans used to call them "two spirits"

No. That is FALSE Native American history created out of whole cloth in 1990

[italic]So it seems that ‘two-spirit’ has been hijacked by the trans lobby, embalmed in the abstruse language of scholarship by trans-funded gender studies departments, and carefully planted to pretend that trans was an accepted native American idea.![/italic]

Activists and their allies like to point out that trans people have always been around in some form or other, which is correct. However, they neglect to acknowledge that the idea that trans women are *literally* women and trans men are *literally* men is very new: less so in academia, perhaps, but certainly in public policy and other areas of public life. Look at how Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie was attacked for merely noting that the life experiences of trans women differ from those of "natal" women.

Transwomen are not women. Transmen are not men. Sick of this Orwellian shit.

To the poster upthread who mentioned the less-than-talented heirs to the Queer Studies academics of the 1970s and 1980s: below is one example, a crazy-eyed Judith Butler fan girl.

What's a woman? I have no clue.

Ketanji Brown Jackson

What’s a woman?

A woman is one who knows how to make a man feel like a man.

The problem is the ideology isn’t based much on science or psychology.

A lot of these terms and ideas were created on the internet by random people, specifically Tumblr. These weren’t doctors or psychologists, they were kids on the internet creating memes.

And by predominately girls. And I mean girls, not women.

It’s the Salem Witch Trials. All it takes is a bunch of young girls with wild imaginations to turn everything upside down.

And that’s the truth.

r194 Exactly.

I wish society would quit pandering to adolescents.

Here's another historical example.

My newfound pussy stinks!

R104: do you think that's true of Jeopardy's Amy Schneider?

That surgeon James Barry’s friend Lord Charles Somerset has a slight case of Crazy Eyes about him (?)

R200! My front hole stinks!

Chase Strangio once wrote an article for Slate arguing that "there's no such thing as a male body." More magical thinking from a prominent ACLU lawyer with a need to bend the truth to suit their own self-image. And such a bourgeois belief too: as if every single soldier who ever died in battle wasn't male; as if slave owners didn't know the difference between male and female workers; and as if working-class manual laborers don't rely entirely on the strength of their physical bodies to survive economically (until those bodies prematurely give out). What an insult to men everywhere.

[quote]R201 What an insult to men everywhere.

Men (particularly, str8 white men) have sufficiently insulted themselves over the course of history. I agree they need no further assist downhill from us…

Chase Strango the genius behind the ACLU censorship of RBG. She made the mistake of referring to women in a famous speech. Obviously that word needed to be changed. Who cares what that insane freak thinks.

[quote] as if every single soldier who ever died in battle wasn't male

?

If a trans woman is unable to dilate for whatever reason, her neovagina will close up? Then what?

She goes to her doctor, idiot.

Do they have to perform surgery to open it up? These are questions, nasty person @ r206.

You sound normal R207.

R205, see Hedwig and the Angry Inch.

Ask Erin Reed, R207. Or her betrothed, Zooey Zephyr.

Sports cheat Dr. Veronica Ivy/Rachel McKonnon/Rhys McKinnon said he has a mons AND a pleasant peanut clit!

A lot of the "evidence" provided above is linked to or cut and pasted from TERF publications and proponents. That is a kind of propaganda too. There are points of view in between the extremism of TERF and the no-prisoners-taken advocates who have been pushing trans ideology too fast and too hard. There are a lot of ridiculous comments and opinions above. There is no doubt from historical records that some people from the past dressed as the opposite sex their entire lives and even sought partners or spouses for lifelong relationships. . I've linked an article on the Hijara below, from the Indian subcontinent, the most populous area on the planet. The historical evidence goes back at least to the 14th century. So it's nonsense to pretend that people have only wanted to live this way in the past 20 years. However, trans people are trying to thread a very difficult needle, and their use of language is muddying the water rather than clarifying it. In order to achieve even the most minimal rights (such as the right to go to work in the clothes that they feel the most comfortable in, without risk of being fired), they have worked to give a psychological/scientific framework that is also pretty rigid.

But some points should be called out. Most of the talking points above, as mentioned, come from TERFS and TERF literature. Those talking points DO NOT BELONG on a gay website. In general, gay men are not closely aligned to either straight OR gay women and their concerns are not our concerns. The proper point of view here ought to be that people should have the right to live as they want to, as long as living that way does not harm or endanger other people. That is the right that we ask for for ourselves, as gay men.

Stop. Just stop, r212.

R212 The adults are talking, and if the subject of conversation bothers you, sit and think happy thoughts. We'll discuss whatever we wish.

Why do trans ideologists always try to limit the free flow of information? Always.

Hijra (Hijara, as you put it, is a board game) don't claim to be women, r212, but a "third gender" in modern parlance, even if that Wikipedia article calls them "transgender". This is really nothing to do with western trans ideology, which claims that men can be women and that humans can change sex with surgery and medication. The most likely is that historically hijra were homosexual men who were deemed not to be real men because of their sexuality. The notion that gay men are really "women" or have a "feminine character" isn't very progressive.

Notice how the trans activists like to point to the hijra as "evidence" that "transwomen are women" (even though they are evidence of no such thing) but they avoid historical examples of eunuchs and the practice of castration, which have more in common with what they call "transgender healthcare".

Hijra is still one of Joni Mitchell’s best albums, IMO.

[quote]Those talking points DO NOT BELONG on a gay website. In general, gay men are not closely aligned to either straight OR gay women and their concerns are not our concerns. The proper point of view here

(patting r212's hand) If I ever need to know "the proper point of view here," or what does or doesn't belong on a gay website, I'll be sure to check with you, dear.

"menluvinguy", aka r212, thinks men have vaginas, so he's not one to speak about what is the "the proper point of view" on a gay site.

R212 you ARE a JOKE sheesh

r212 thinks calling everyone a "TERF" really wounds, lol.

I mean, can you even imagine!

"TERF" like "cis" is a label invented by radical trans activists.

When I was a kid, the idea that being soft, emotional etc was inherently “feminine” was considered extremely demeaning. Why are we going backwards?

“That’s right, we’re not going back!”

R222, I wonder, along with you.

Assholes r 213, r214, r215, r217,r218,r219, r220, r221,, whom I suspect are mostly the same person, are wrong on a number of points, so I guess I'll have to address those one by one. r221.. TERF as a term was originated by a radical feminist at MichFest. (you can google it on Wikipedia if you think I'm making that up) . It stands for trans-exclusionary radfem (TERF) activists The main concern with TERFS all along has been trans people trying to be admitted to women's spaces. I ask again, WHAT CONCERN IS THAT OF GAY MEN? We have no dog in that hunt. r218 is putting nonsense words in my mouth r215 his argument is with Wikipedia, not me. I'm not a trans ideologist. I was VERY clear on that in my post. Trans ideologists do not speak for all trans -in fact, their viewpoints are probably a minority within the trans community. I am not trans and I don't understand the desire to be trans. But I certainly understand what it is to be a sexual minority and thus I have something in short supply here, which is called EMPATHY. Trans ideologists are not allowed to define who qualifies as trans and who doesn't. But neither does r215. People are allowed to define themselves

Again, people have a right to live their lives as they see fit, as long as in doing so they are not harming others. Why is that so threating to the posters listed above?

r225 is a classic Gender Indentity Warrior full of ALL CAPS bile and all manner of kooky, dangerous, science-free notions!

I am one of those replies, but none of the others, but I did enjoy them!

Me, too – I'm r217 and no one else.

But thank you for telling me I am "wrong on a number of points, so I guess I'll have to address those one by one." Bless you for your service!

[quote]It stands for trans-exclusionary radfem (TERF) activists The main concern with TERFS all along has been trans people trying to be admitted to women's spaces. I ask again, WHAT CONCERN IS THAT OF GAY MEN?

You should at least be somewhat concerned, if not empathetic. The recent "Tickle vs Giggle" judgment in Australia (in which the judge ruled that biological sex is changeable, contradicting the statement of an expert witness, an evolutionary biologist) could, over time, come to affect *all* single-sex spaces worldwide, including men-only spaces. Besides, some gay men have been concerned all along about gay boys undergoing transgender surgery when they are, in fact, "merely" same-sex attracted. At stake is the fundamental question of whether sex takes precedence over gender or gender takes precedence over sex. Why would you would think that only affects TERFs/women? Female people would have the concomitant right to identify into male-only spaces.

[quote] [R221].. TERF as a term was originated by a radical feminist at MichFest. (you can google it on Wikipedia if you think I'm making that up) . It stands for trans-exclusionary radfem (TERF) activists The main concern with TERFS all along has been trans people trying to be admitted to women's spaces. I ask again, WHAT CONCERN IS THAT OF GAY MEN?

r221 here - since I'm NOT the others listed, I'll address the point aimed at me.

First and foremost, irrespective of when, who, or how TERF was coined, it has become a pejorative and is mostly used to silence opinions not agreeing with the the entire platform of T ideology. It's used as a weapon against ALL women who don't bow down and accept the full T demand list.

Second, as gay men we should be concerned whenever we're drawn into battles. The Ts have created a cultural war into which gay men have been dragged because we've been tied to them through historical association. Gay men and Ts have long since taken different forks in the road and our goals have radically diverged to the point of almost being in opposition.

Sure, we agree that we want the right to live our lives. But, move a little beyond that point - which ALL people in all minority groups have in common by the wary - and we quickly find ourselves in opposition.

As the Ts have pushed their agenda through their mouthpieces GLAAD and HRC, gay people have actually seen an erosion of hard won rights and general public acceptance.

And, it should go without saying that "cis" is primarily used as a pejorative to dismiss people - and the utter hypocrisy of using that label on people seems lost on the users who seem so determined to redefine terms and become outraged when their self-chosen labels are not used while freely sticking other people with unnecessary and unwanted labels.

Thank you r221. That was at least a much more thoughtful and accurate reply than your original one. However, it lacked a good deal of specificity. You talked about diverging goals, yet you didn't specify in which ways those goals diverged. When gay people (and lesbians) united to fight for "rights", the goals were straightforward. Protection from persecution, protection from prosecution (decriminalization) , the ability to work without being fired for sexual orientation, the right to live in a dwelling without being evicted because of sexual orientation. and these concerns resulted in calls for an end to discrimination against gay men and lesbians in employment, credit, lending, housing, marriage, adoption, public accommodations, and other areas of life.

What exactly differs in those goals than in the goals of trans people? As far as I can tell, the goals are quite similar. Two things distinguish them however. Most gay people can "hide" quite easily. Therefore, simply by being discreet, gay people can often avoid discrimination. We shouldn't have to hide, and that was part of the push of the gay rights agenda, but nonetheless, that is an option that trans people don't have. Someone with heavy makeup AND a heavy 5 o'clock shadow is going to be noticed.

The other is that trans people are in a quandary when it comes to the use of facilities. A person wearing a dress using a men's bathroom is going to invite blatant hostility and physical attacks are almost a given. Women's facilities don't have urinals or open stalls. Women do their business behind lockable stall doors. It is psychologically frightening for women to have someone with a penis in that space, but there are not electronic detection devices to keep men out. Women have been raped in ladies' rooms since the invention of the bathroom - by MEN dressed as men. So it's a bit of a red herring. There are undoubtedly examples of trans person raping women in a ladies' room, but that is not a common scenario. In an ideal world, there would always be a single stall bathroom available for ANYONE who didn't want to use a communal facility, but absent that, trans people have to make a choice that gay men are not confronted with.

The rest of trans ideology as practiced by some activists seems to me to be an effort to provide scientific/sociological cover for the protections that gay people and lesbians have now enjoyed for 20 years or so. (Very recent in historical terms). There are still issues to be worked out and I wish there could be neutral committees that could study such issues and could make recommendations based upon science, psychology, statistics and the like. Fat chance. . Ideally trans people who are interested in sports should have competitions just with one another. But their numbers are tiny. In a dozen states which have enacted bans on sports competitions based upon this fear, it turns out that most have never had a trans sports competitor. Who exactly is making these laws and bans and where are they getting their information (and their funding?). To me, those are important questions. If laws are enacted to protect against scenarios that are vanishingly small in their impact, someone is using the issue as a wedge.

The original question of this thread didn't have to do with Cis language, pronouns, people arguing over what is a real woman or anything of the sort. The original question was actually about what such people did BEFORE Jazz. The answer is that some people have been dressing and acting as the opposite sex throughout recorded history and they have sincerely believed that that is what is most natural for them.

R225

I don't tell people what to think or what not to think.

I don't tell people what to say or what not to say

I don't tell people what to read or what not to read

I don't tell people what to talk about or what not to talk about.

Who the fuck do you think you are to call everyone and disagrees with you an asshole?

What do you believe, then, "menluvinguy" who thinks men have vaginas at r221? Aside from you not giving a shit about women, that is. You also certainly don't give a shit about gay male youth who are "effeminate" and are therefore pushed to transition from before puberty even (Jazz Jennings, mentioned in the OP, being a particular example of this).

Moreover, if you don't believe that some gay men can have vaginas, then you are a terf and a bigot, according to the trans. What do you think of females who have had "top surgery" going into gay male saunas?

Trannys get their pus pocket handed to them...

What do you think of this, "men"luvinguy? Posted just yesterday on the r/transgenderUK subreddit.

[quote]Brighton sauna

[quote]Question

[quote]I've been wanting to go to the gay sauna in Brighton with my cis fwb. I pass well but have prominent chest scars, so I'll almost definitely be clocked. Does anyone have any experience going as a trans man, or know if we are even allowed in? Thanks :)

Here is one of the replies:

[quote]Have not been to Brighton, but I did go to Pleasuredrome in London, also with prominent top surgery scars. It was no issue at all- I’d be shocked if Brighton was less trans friendly. Just be aware that if your ID isn’t updated to M, you may have issues because of licensing rules (they can’t legally let someone in with an F marker if it’s a men’s sauna, basically).

Would you be happy to see these two female individuals who identify as gay men, with their prominent breast amputation scars, in a gay men's sauna? The "cis fwb" may even be a heterosexual man.

Note: if the transman has had her sex/gender (it's confusing to know which one it is) changed legally, then nothing can stop her from entering a space legally reserved for men only!

If a man wanted to have sex with a woman he wouldn't be at a gay sauna.

A woman who's had her tits cut off isn't a man.

Stop being a TERF, r236, you'll incite "men"luvinguy to write more screeds, outlining in 500 paragraphs how heterosexual women who cut their tits off become men and should be allowed into gay male spaces because they are gay men too.

R229 speaks truth, and very cogently and eloquently.

[quote] It is psychologically frightening for women to have someone with a penis in that space

Women use mixed bathrooms all over the world. This just isn’t true.

Are you a woman, r239?

I don't think bathrooms are that big a deal, but I'd rather have someone of my own gender for genital exams

I have big problems with trans people in general, but that said, I never understood the problem with bathrooms, as long as we're talking about bathrooms with individual stalls. Because of course there is not supposed to be any intentional exposure or sexual interaction between people in bathrooms under any circumstances, so if that does happen, it's illegal regardless of the sexes/genders of the people involved.

You support getting rid of single-sex toilets altogether then, r242?

The situation in the US is particularly nuts, because the public toilets there not only don't have full-size doors on them but there are big gaps between the wall and the door, so you can be seen doing your business by anyone standing outside your cubicle.

I don't support getting rid of single-sex restrooms, but in my view, non-gender-specific restrooms are fine as long as they have individual stalls that offer privacy, and no urinals, which seems to be happening more and more frequently.

[quote] I have big problems with trans people in general,

Do you know any trans people R242? Are you friends with any, or do you work with any?

I read Judith Butler's recent book, "Who's Afraid of Gender?", her first mass-market/non-academic title. She writes "homosexuality" in scare quotes throughout and cherry-picks her way through everything. She also essentially argues that "gender-critical" views are a social panic.

Judith Butler is a sanctimonious jackass who fancies herself Queen of All Academia.

The trans aren't asking for non-gender specific restrooms, r244, they want transwomen in women's restrooms. Non-gender specific restrooms would probably annoy them as they don't "affirm" them as women.

R248, I think you're right about that, and it's a good indication of the severity of the problem.

The T girls want to expose their penises in front of women and girls. Duh.

r248 and r249, it's an indication of your preconceived notions that you have no idea what trans people would prefer. I invite you to read this article about bathroom safety for trans people, including their preference for single user non-gender specific spaces.

That article was written by a they/them woman, r251, not by a man who claims to be a woman. Two very different things. That article is a pile of cringe shit anyway.

You still haven't responded as to whether you'd be happy with transmen (i.e. women) with "top surgery" scars, as detailed in r234, in a gay men's sauna.

As a cynic once said: "Why do nobody's magic inner lady feels ever involve a sudden urge to mop the floor?"

^^ that person equates true womanhood with the drudgery of housework?

That’s flattering.

R254: I think she was talking more about the drudgery of the everyday lives of so many millions of women (their "lived reality"), as opposed to the supposedly "fun" and "glamorous" parts of being female. Trans women, for example, rarely seem to dream of going into the low-status, low-paid occupations typically dominated by females (child care, elderly care, food prep, nursing). You can't blame women for getting cynical sometimes about what does and does not get "celebrated."

Trans women make a mockery of women.

Ask yourself why trans women want to get into women's toilets and trans men don't want to get into men's toilets. There's a reason we have spaces segregated by sex.

Same with sport and prisons, r257. Transwomen demand that they participate in women's sports and be housed in women's prisons, while transmen also prefer women's sports and women's prisons and don't want to be in the men's versions.

[quote] including their preference for single user non-gender specific spaces.

That is not cost effective for most venues that have multi-person restrooms. Of course, some locations can have single use bathrooms without problems. But, in high traffic venues, that's simply not practical.

Can you imagine the lines at a concert if they went to single user restrooms. They'd reduce capacity by 90% or the entire venue would be restrooms if they passed some capacity-to-restroom laws to ensure adequate numbers of facilities.

Good points made upthread. Mtfs online act like a fashion parade but I don’t see any mtfs in female drudgery, low paying jobs.

And I don’t want to see their big ass feet in the toilet stall next to me.

Of course, you have a point, R259. The compromise would be to have large restrooms with urinals for use by people with penises, and then other restrooms with small private stalls for everyone else. Would still be a challenge to provide enough of the latter, but I can think of no other sensible compromise.

[quote]The compromise would be to have large restrooms with urinals for use by people with penises, and then other restrooms with small private stalls for everyone else.

That is not a compromise for two reasons that are obvious - first is that this entire debate hinges on the notion of "people with penises" NOT wanting this. Second is that it's essentially the status quo, so is no compromise.

I honestly can't tell which side of this debate you're supporting.

[quote]I invite you to read this article about bathroom safety for trans people, including their preference for single user non-gender specific spaces.

All the world over, so easy to see

Trannies everywhere just wanna go pee!

[quote]including their preference for single user non-gender specific spaces.

...and I prefer to be carried around on a sedan chair by eight hot muscular men, rather than be forced to ride the subway.

But, I endure.

[quote]That is not a compromise for two reasons that are obvious - first is that this entire debate hinges on the notion of "people with penises" NOT wanting this.

To clarify, the compromise would be to continue to provide large restrooms with urinals for people who have penises AND WHO HAVE NO PROBLEM USING URINALS.

Your thoughts, R262?

[quote]R255 Trans women, for example, rarely seem to dream of going into the low-status, low-paid occupations typically dominated by females (child care, elderly care, food prep, nursing).

Which study reveals what jobs trans women plan for?

Prostitution was traditionally a popular occupation for transwomen.

It's a very bourgeois movement, R266.

Now everybody wants to rain on the pussy parade.

R267, it still is.