South Pacific - A 1950s Homoerotic Wet Dream
I watched it on TCM last night, and while the movie itself isn't that great (Mitzi Gaynor was no Doris Day), damn, the men in it were fine!
It was like a 1950s vintage beefcake magazine come to life, with sex god Ed Fury parading around shirtless, a young James Stacey (when he still had an arm and a leg) showing off his hairy chest, and of course, the big, blonde, bulging bruiser Ken Clark as Stewpot.
I'm surprised his crotch got past the 1950s censors.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 261 | July 29, 2024 12:54 AM
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Did Vincent Minnelli direct? Or John Ford? Or Billy Wilder? Or…..
by Anonymous | reply 1 | July 17, 2024 5:51 PM
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Too bad the berries are covering up his big twig.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 3 | July 17, 2024 5:53 PM
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I love that movie.
Still, that was a bizarre move to use all those changing colors cinematography lenses.
I had the biggest crush on John Kerr who left the business and became an attorney.
by Anonymous | reply 5 | July 17, 2024 5:55 PM
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Yeah, the gaudy colors and the weird cloudy look around the camera lens in some of the scenes didn't do the movie any favors.
And yes, John Kerr was a sexy twink.
by Anonymous | reply 6 | July 17, 2024 5:58 PM
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Even Ray Walston was almost sexy in this!
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 7 | July 17, 2024 5:59 PM
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R3 Studio execs probably saw him in just the Speedo and said, "No way. We gotta cover that thing up."
by Anonymous | reply 8 | July 17, 2024 6:00 PM
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This is r5.
I know John Kerr managed a pretty decent run as an employed actor.
Still, it's saying something about his appeal in SP that I had a big crush on him even though a wooden 2 X 4 was more animated than him.
by Anonymous | reply 9 | July 17, 2024 6:19 PM
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R9 He was certainly pretty. Pretty enough that I didn't pay that much attention to his acting.
by Anonymous | reply 10 | July 17, 2024 6:23 PM
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Mmm, I’d like to put a stew in his pot.
by Anonymous | reply 12 | July 18, 2024 1:44 AM
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Yeah I've always had a crush on Kerr in this movie. So sexy in that white bathing suit during Happy Talk. There was a showing of the film shortly before he died and there is a picture of him with Gaynor and Nuyen.
The movie is musically magnificent with that huge orchestra and it all supervised by the great Alfred Newman. My two pet peaves about it are they cut I'm going to Wash that Man Right Out of My Hair(a couple of seconds out of a 3 hour movie!) and those horrible color filters. They make the film look like the film has aged when that's the way it's supposed to look. It played the longest run in a single that I've ever heard of. 4 years in the Dominion of London where Logan said the movie made its cost back.
It's good Melcher asked for too much money I think Gaynor is perfect in the role so young and fresh faced. And she's great in the scene where she finds out Emile's biological children are mixed race. Day might have made it a Doris Day musical instead of a Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. She wipes John Raitt off the screen in The Pajama Game.
by Anonymous | reply 13 | July 18, 2024 2:36 AM
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Did Mitzi Gaynor decide to leave Hollywood, or did her career go down the proverbial shitter?
by Anonymous | reply 15 | July 18, 2024 2:46 AM
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I paused it until my partner could come down to see There Is Nothing Like A Dame and Ken's VPL. It's impressive.
I can't help it. I really don't like Mitzi Gaynor. I'm not fond of her voice and the catch she throws in some of the songs. Day would have perfect. She was the right age and would have acted the shit out of that part.
The filters were beyond annoying. This movie had a lot of wasted potential.
by Anonymous | reply 16 | July 18, 2024 3:07 AM
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Day would have been perfect ten years before when she hadn't become an American icon. You see in The Pajama Game the year before(it's a terrific film and the bluray is great) she's already maturing. But if you don't like Gaynor then nothing is going to convince you. Mitzi herself in one of her interviews on youtube which shows she's a very self aware fun woman explains why she didn't continue in movies. Though she had a very successful concert and TV career. The last thing I saw her in was a concert at the Hollywood Bowl. She seemed very old and frail. I saw it with Debbie Reynolds as well. For so long even when they are getting older they are so full of youthful energy then it's heartbreaking to see that they are suddenly really old people. I know it's inevitable for all of us but it's especially disconcerting to see in a star who you continue to see forever at their best.
by Anonymous | reply 17 | July 18, 2024 3:37 PM
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R17 What? There were women in this movie?
by Anonymous | reply 18 | July 18, 2024 9:17 PM
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The always reliable Poseidon’s Underworld pays tribute to sexy South Pacific actors, leading with Ken Clark.
No berries covering the bulge at link.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 19 | July 18, 2024 9:42 PM
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When I was growing up clearly a long time ago all homes seemed to have in their LP collections the stereo version of the obc(or so I thought) of My Fair Lady, the soundtrack of South Pacific and the obc of The Sound of Music.
by Anonymous | reply 20 | July 18, 2024 10:06 PM
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r17 You thought Doris was too old? How do you feel about a 54-year-old Nellie?
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 21 | July 18, 2024 10:17 PM
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R20, the OBC of My Fair Lady was the #1 album of 1958. The film Soundtrack of South Pacific also sold well that year.
by Anonymous | reply 22 | July 18, 2024 10:21 PM
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R21 That was so ridiculous I didn't even watch it. For God's sake she was too old for Sunset Boulevard!
by Anonymous | reply 24 | July 18, 2024 10:25 PM
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I never miss a Rade Serbedzija musical.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 25 | July 18, 2024 10:35 PM
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Late-in-life Doris Day as Norma Desmond in ALWs Sunset Blvd. would have been glorious.
by Anonymous | reply 26 | July 18, 2024 11:24 PM
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R17 - I'm absolutely sure Mitzi Gaynor was a lovely person. And I'm not being sarcastic. I didn't like her acting. She was a bit cloying. And she wasn't pretty enough; shape of her face made her look kinda jowly. Her singing ranged from very good to annoying. She looked great in the sixties with all the make up etc. I remember her specials and she was great. Wrong for this part.
by Anonymous | reply 27 | July 19, 2024 5:20 AM
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John Kerr is very sexy as Anne Francis' pimp/boyfriend in "Girl of the Night"
by Anonymous | reply 28 | July 19, 2024 5:25 AM
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R5 He came back and did Twin Peaks.
by Anonymous | reply 29 | July 19, 2024 7:28 AM
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I could be wrong but I don't think Mitzi Gaynor ever did a Broadway show or a tour in one of the shows everyone did, like Hello Dolly or Mame. I wonder why?--because I can totally see her in the lead of some show, in a Gwen Verdon type of part. I'm surprised no one wrote a show for her.
I saw her one-woman show once on the Cape and really, she was great. I know it's said about a lot of people but if you didn't see her in person (when she was still young-ish) you missed what she was about as a performer. She really had the audience with her the whole time. The definition of a really good entertainer, and very likeable. I was maybe 18 or 19 at the time. My friends and I waited to meet her later and she was funny and charming.
I don't think Doris Day (except vocally) was particularly right for the part of Nellie Forbush. She wasn't one who could ever play naive very well. I think Nellie describes herself as a little hick, which Doris was not And indeed she was too old. The story used to be (I think I read it in TV Guide), that when Richard Rogers was at a party with her and asked her to sing for him, she replied that she never sang at parties, and he dropped her as an idea for the role at that moment. Elizabeth Taylor auditioned for R&H but was so nervous she couldn't sing.
It was probably a better part for Shirley Jones, or even Jane Powell--though Powell was no longer a movie star by 1957-'58. Still, why not Shirley Jones? She was perfect. Was it because she had starred in both Oklahoma and Carousel, as well?
Mitzi Gaynor had the classic "dead eyes" thing, on screen, when she had to do anything dramatic. She was essentially a comedic actress, great in movies where she could be flippant, cute, and sexy, like There's No Business Like Show Business.
by Anonymous | reply 30 | July 19, 2024 7:44 AM
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Mitzi was good in two 1957 films--the Joker is Wild, with Frank Sinatra, and Les Girls, with Gene Kelly. She displayed a more mature acting ability. I figure maybe these two roles led to her being cast in South Pacific.
by Anonymous | reply 31 | July 19, 2024 7:49 AM
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She said she auditioned for Hammerstein in Hollywood because he was in town for the day during the filming of The Joker is Wild. They were shooting a big scene in a casino with hundreds of extras and they needed her. Sinatra had the filming shut down for the day.
by Anonymous | reply 32 | July 19, 2024 11:56 AM
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As much as everyone hates those filters it was the biggest hit of '58. Go figure. The little of it where there are no filters it is visually stunning.
by Anonymous | reply 33 | July 19, 2024 12:12 PM
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I'm James Farentino's bare ass at the Vivian Beaumont. Beautiful? I was a fucking Renaissance statue come to life!
by Anonymous | reply 34 | July 19, 2024 12:20 PM
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^ Sorry wrong film thread.
Though this film could have used the bare asses of Kerr and Brazzi considering it was 3 hours with Brazzi singing Younger than Springtime to Kerr.
by Anonymous | reply 35 | July 19, 2024 12:23 PM
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For a second, I thought that the snippet OP posted was from "Querelle".
by Anonymous | reply 36 | July 19, 2024 12:26 PM
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And the way Josh Logan had the filters applied, it's impossible to remove them.
by Anonymous | reply 37 | July 20, 2024 6:58 PM
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She was too old for sure, but Nellie was Mary Martin’s creation on Broadway. She is great in the recordings and old film clips.
by Anonymous | reply 38 | July 20, 2024 7:23 PM
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I've never seen South Pacific, but dayum, Ken Clark is hot.
He looks like a big muscular version of Colin Ferguson / Mark Valley / Joel Gretsch.
by Anonymous | reply 39 | July 20, 2024 7:32 PM
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I wanted Stew Pot in me, quite deeply.
by Anonymous | reply 40 | July 20, 2024 7:34 PM
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According to The Judy Room, Judy and her agent at the time, Abe Lastfogel, were in talks in 1950 about Judy taking over the part from Mary Martin on Broadway. Later in the mid-‘50s there was a proposal for Judy and Mario Lanza to appear in a screen version.
by Anonymous | reply 41 | July 20, 2024 7:36 PM
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[quote]Did Mitzi Gaynor decide to leave Hollywood, or did her career go down the proverbial shitter?
Mitzi was self-aware and pragmatic, r15. She realized she wasn't extraordinary on screen and her strengths were better utilized on stage in solo shows. Anybody that can do Jack Cole is extraordinary in my book.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 42 | July 20, 2024 7:38 PM
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She was too old for The Sound of Music as well a year later on Broadway but nobody gave a fuck and it was a sold out hit. The distance of the stage is much more forgiving than a Todd AO close up. They wouldn't have used color filters for her they would have had to use as they say linoleum.
Julie Andrews came very close to being fired from MFL. Harrison in front of the entire company wanted her out and Andrews said she was very scared. Even Moss Hart was very discouraged. Her possible firing was very real. But by sheer force of her will and Hart's intense work she was able to hang onto the role. But let's say she was let go she would not have gotten Mary Poppins and Music. Those films were going to be made no matter what and it is interesting to conjecture who would have gotten those roles.
by Anonymous | reply 43 | July 20, 2024 9:47 PM
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[quote]Those films were going to be made no matter what and it is interesting to conjecture who would have gotten those roles.
Dell's conjecture...
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 44 | July 20, 2024 9:59 PM
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R44 looks like Sheila MacRae…
by Anonymous | reply 47 | July 21, 2024 12:03 AM
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Later in the mid-‘50s there was a proposal for Judy and Mario Lanza to appear in a screen version.
Judy was in her fat period then.
by Anonymous | reply 49 | July 21, 2024 12:07 AM
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Shirley MacLaine…if she could sing. Eva Marie Saint…she could sing pretty well (she was in the TV musical of Our Town), but was over 30…Shirley Jones…why not? Caroll Baker, if they could have dubbed her. Debbie Reynolds…
by Anonymous | reply 50 | July 21, 2024 12:08 AM
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R49 She wasn’t fat in A Star is Born, the period in question.
by Anonymous | reply 51 | July 21, 2024 12:09 AM
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[quote]Judy was in her fat period then.
And Mario?
by Anonymous | reply 52 | July 21, 2024 12:13 AM
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Yes I can hear Shirley MacLaine doing it.
by Anonymous | reply 53 | July 21, 2024 12:17 AM
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Actually, Debbie in 1958 would have been great casting. And she was a pretty big star then as well, almost as big as Doris. Doris was too old by then. Though I honestly have no problem with Mitzi. She's very good in it. I don't even mind the color filters. My biggest problem is with John Kerr's dubbing, as it sounds nothing like him, and is very jarring. Also, hated that they dubbed poor Juanita.
by Anonymous | reply 54 | July 21, 2024 12:20 AM
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Woth all that available hotness on set how did they wind up with wet noodle John Kerr as Cable, who even had to be dubbed?
Was Doris older than Mitzi, r54?
by Anonymous | reply 55 | July 21, 2024 12:21 AM
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Doris born April 3, 1922.
Mitzi born September 4, 1931.
by Anonymous | reply 56 | July 21, 2024 12:24 AM
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Sorry but Debbie is too dykey. She would have preferred Liat.
by Anonymous | reply 57 | July 21, 2024 12:25 AM
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[quote]But let's say she was let go she would not have gotten Mary Poppins and Music. Those films were going to be made no matter what and it is interesting to conjecture who would have gotten those roles.
My money's on Helen Lawson.
by Anonymous | reply 58 | July 21, 2024 1:52 AM
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[quote]r5 Still, that was a bizarre move to use all those changing colors cinematography lenses.
Logan says in his autobiography that he was assured the colored filters would take over the images very subtly. He was horrified when he saw the results.
by Anonymous | reply 59 | July 21, 2024 2:13 AM
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Juanita Hall is an Irish Jersey shore girl. Seriously.
by Anonymous | reply 60 | July 21, 2024 3:28 AM
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What kind of whore movie is this?
by Anonymous | reply 61 | July 21, 2024 3:32 AM
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I think the Broadway show was very topical in its day.
The plot is kind of anemic, now.
by Anonymous | reply 62 | July 21, 2024 3:36 AM
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With the right performer, the material still WOWS!
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 63 | July 21, 2024 3:38 AM
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^^ YouTube comment:
[quote]The lump in her throat she sings about was cancer.
[italic]Which one of you bitches wrote that?
by Anonymous | reply 64 | July 21, 2024 3:42 AM
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It's score is immortal. Well it was. Now few people care about Rodgers and Hammerstein except a few funded theaters. The only show of theirs that continues to be a money producing machine is The Sound of Music and that's because of the film which seems to have some kind of hold on the national psyche. For some reason those tunes, the alps, nuns, Julie Andrews and Nazis was the greatest show biz combination ever. I mean if Hitler had been a talented painter we wouldn't have had the most popular movie of all time.
by Anonymous | reply 65 | July 21, 2024 4:26 AM
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R54 Debbie Reynolds didn’t have a strong enough voice for the role. Mary Martin could really sing and the songs were somewhat difficult (Twin Soliloquies). The drama may also have been beyond her.
I have no problem with Mitzi and she could sing the part mostly very well (despite having a kind of blah voice and vocal style and being a much better dancer than singer). But she’s not quite 100% in her wheelhouse. Rossano Brazzi is somewhat dramatically lacking, as well.
I hate how so many people were voice-doubled in later screen musicals, until it became an epidemic. You never, ever, get the dramatic impact you do from someone’s own voice.
There was no reason to dub Juanita Hall. Her own singing was much more appropriate to her own presence —as well as being better for Bloody Mary than the voice of the London cast actress they used. I don’t think John Kerr was particularly well cast. He had something likable despite being a somewhat stiff actor. He didn’t seem to belong in a musical. Would have rather seen Jeffrey Hunter, maybe, or Don Murray. Or a rea singer.
I can’t stand the filters.
by Anonymous | reply 66 | July 21, 2024 4:39 AM
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The filters remind of the Vietnam smoke in Apocalypse Now.
by Anonymous | reply 68 | July 21, 2024 4:41 AM
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The filters actually remind me at times of the amber-teal filteres used a lot in movies ten or twenty years ago. I was watching Lords of Dogtown recently and there were those stupid filters for no reason.
by Anonymous | reply 69 | July 21, 2024 4:46 AM
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South Pacific’s story is kind of a bummer. The Sound of Music is a fairytale in comparison.
by Anonymous | reply 70 | July 21, 2024 6:35 AM
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Was Josh Logan known to employ the casting couch?
by Anonymous | reply 71 | July 21, 2024 7:18 AM
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It was a very relevant show that came out only 4 years after the end of the war. Nothing like what had been seen before. Based on a book of interrelated short stories by James Michener that won the Pulitzer Prize. (Tales of the South Pacific.) Some Enchanted Evening became a hit song. The chemistry of Pinza and Martin was unusual, and a sensation. People talk about Mitzi Gaynor but Brazzi didn’t have the charisma of Pinza at all.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 72 | July 21, 2024 11:45 AM
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Except for his dubbing, I think John Kerr is perfectly cast. He's a kid, thrown into war. He has an inate intelligence that makes him smarter than most of the people around him, but he's out of his element. The best thing that the movie does is put back the cut song, "My Girl Back Home. It connects the two out of place characters and bonds them at a moment when they are overwhelmed by their feelings. In the Broadway revival, it's one of the few missteps putting the song so early in the show.
by Anonymous | reply 73 | July 21, 2024 12:26 PM
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Just bumping for fun since all the political trolls are back online
by Anonymous | reply 75 | July 21, 2024 12:38 PM
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Very sexy.I don’t know the story.Why does he have the nick name and why is it on his clothing and bare skin?thanks.
by Anonymous | reply 76 | July 21, 2024 1:01 PM
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R26- Late in life Lucille Ball as Norma Desmond would have been great but no doubt Gary would have talked her out of it.
by Anonymous | reply 77 | July 21, 2024 1:25 PM
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Ok fine - different movie entirely, but...
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 78 | July 21, 2024 1:36 PM
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Mitzi Gaynor…they probably had to tone her down, to play Nellie. She is like that girl from the arts high school who is almost too talented. Can do all the accents, can play old or young…can do all the dances. Always on.
by Anonymous | reply 79 | July 21, 2024 2:17 PM
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Ezio Pinza's thrilling renditions of Some Enchanted Evening and This Nearly Was Mine still send chills down my spine. I realize his looks were comparable to a medieval troll, but that voice was undeniably heart-stopping. So much so that Mary Martin (wisely) refused to sing a duet with him, and R&H accommodated her by coming up with Twin Soliloquies, in which they sing together but never at the same time.
I can't get over the love for limp John Kerr here. Considering they didn't need a singer (as he was dubbed), just think of all the hotties who could have played Cable at the time: Tab Hunter, Jeffrey Hunter, Robert Wagner, and on and on.............
As for Shirley Jones as Nellie, besides the fact that she'd already played 2 R&H heroines, I think she was too pretty, even luscious, for the character. Nellie needs to be a self-doubting All-American Everywoman and Mitzi fit the bill perfectly.
by Anonymous | reply 80 | July 21, 2024 2:19 PM
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R80 I feel the same re Pinza.
You may be right about Jones. Though R&H did audition Liz Taylor.
by Anonymous | reply 81 | July 21, 2024 2:36 PM
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What I like about Pinza-Martin is both their emotion and the way they don’t force or push the song. It’s relaxed and nobody (as in current Broadway) is trying to sound perfect or consciously deliver a showstopper..
by Anonymous | reply 83 | July 21, 2024 2:40 PM
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It's funny but all the guys you mentioned were very pretty heartthrobs but for me completely sexless. Obviously a connoisseur of male pulchritude Josh Logan felt the same as did the straight super duo R & H.
Kerr was perfect. He also would have been perfect as Lindbergh as Wilder wanted but Kerr despised the man. So instead the undoubtedly brilliant Wilder hires the superannuated Stewart which makes no sense at all and was probably one of the reasons it failed. Who wants an old hero when we know the real man was very young?
by Anonymous | reply 84 | July 21, 2024 2:42 PM
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And then there's the Carnegie Hall concert version, with DL fave Alec Baldwin. (And co-faves Reba and Stokes.)
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 85 | July 21, 2024 2:44 PM
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R20 We had the mono My Fair Lady. Didn’t own a stereo just an RCA High Fi. Did not have the other 2 albums, but did have Oklahoma and The King and I (original cast). (In the 1960s.)
by Anonymous | reply 86 | July 21, 2024 2:44 PM
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Nice article......I liked Ken Clark - but Richard Harrison as the co-pilot with Tom Laughlin as the pilot is the most stunning guy in the movie. I could only find a small picture of him.....but I couldn't take my eyes off of him during those scenes.
He did a good job pretending to fly that plane!
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 87 | July 21, 2024 2:46 PM
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We also had a 45 single of Bali H’ai and Happy Talk…some orchestra and chorus or other.
by Anonymous | reply 88 | July 21, 2024 2:46 PM
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Mitzi Gaynor used to bring her show to Starlight Musicals every summer - it was fun....and she sang all the South Pacific songs...and danced up a storm.
A friend told me that once a guy he knew worked at the hotel she stayed in. The guy couldn't believe the hotel didn't provide flowers for Mitzi......so he bought fresh flowers for her every day.
When Mitzi checked out she thanked the clerk and told him how much she loved the flowers.....the clerk said we didn't do that. It took her a few weeks to find out who did.....and she sent the guy a check and an autographed photo......
by Anonymous | reply 89 | July 21, 2024 2:50 PM
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r84, are you saying that John Kerr turned down the role of Charles Lindbergh in The Spirit of St. Louis because he despised Billy Wilder?
If true, that was a stupid career move.
by Anonymous | reply 90 | July 21, 2024 5:55 PM
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No no no! He hated Lindbergh.
by Anonymous | reply 91 | July 21, 2024 7:08 PM
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He knew all about him. A lot of people knew back then.
Now I guess this is a conspiracy theory but more and more people are believing Lindbergh killed his own kid because the child was having developmental problems.
by Anonymous | reply 92 | July 21, 2024 7:14 PM
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I fear Mitzi is in her final days. She hasn't posted on her Facebook page for 3 years and her last public appearance on TV saw her very low energy. Maybe she was having a bad day but she had lost that Mitzi sparkle. I l know she has been confined to a wheelchair for a while.
by Anonymous | reply 93 | July 22, 2024 12:51 AM
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That's what I was afraid of.
by Anonymous | reply 94 | July 22, 2024 1:11 AM
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Lindbergh’s choice to play hm was Tony Perkins. I can’t imagine watching his mannerisms in this role for 2 hours.
R92 Lindbergh’s pro-Hitler leanings weren’t a secret.
The movie wasn’t popuJar and John Kerr wouldn’t have made it more popular.
by Anonymous | reply 95 | July 22, 2024 2:28 AM
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As difficult as it may be to believe, Lindbergh's Nazi sympathies were not at all well-known in the early 1950s when the film about him was made. Do you really think a brilliant Jewish talent like Billy Wilder would have made the film knowing the whole truth?
by Anonymous | reply 96 | July 22, 2024 2:32 AM
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R96 That’s interesting because they were known to John Kerr who turned down the roe for that reason.
by Anonymous | reply 97 | July 22, 2024 3:01 AM
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No mics in those days on stage.
by Anonymous | reply 99 | July 22, 2024 3:30 AM
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There were hanging mics and floor mics by then, r99.
by Anonymous | reply 100 | July 22, 2024 3:41 AM
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[quote]R96 Do you really think a brilliant Jewish talent like Billy Wilder would have made the film knowing the whole truth?
Many, many Hollywood professionals have always been fine with sanitizing the truth in exchange for a good paycheck. Informed people knew where Lindbergh stood after he became the face of the America First Committee in 1941 (even if they hadn’t seen him proudly wear the Service Cross of the German Eagle presented to him in Berlin by Hermann Göring!)
And the pilot’s wife Anne Morrow had already published her fascist tome “The Wave of the Future” long before the Wilder film was in development…. it was no secret where the filthy Lindbergh family’s sympathies lay.
by Anonymous | reply 101 | July 22, 2024 3:46 AM
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No wonder I liked this movie so much as a kid
by Anonymous | reply 102 | July 22, 2024 3:51 AM
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I think. the Lindbergh baby kidnapped himself.
by Anonymous | reply 103 | July 22, 2024 4:11 AM
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I was five when I saw South Pacific but I didn't get when Emile's two Asian kids would be a problem for Nellie. I didn't understand why Cable could fall in love with Liat at first sight or why her mothr would pimp her. I also didn't understand why the men would don coconut bras and have a talent show pretending to be women. I thought the songs and the Todd AO color were lovely, and I figured out that it was a WWII movie, but beyond that, it made no fucking sense.
by Anonymous | reply 104 | July 22, 2024 4:42 AM
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Yeah it doesn’t have kid appeal, like The Sound of Music does.
I watched it again recently and wanted to get Invested in Liat/Cable, but the relationship was too superficial.
by Anonymous | reply 105 | July 22, 2024 5:25 AM
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(I too saw South Pacific as a kid and was confused by the story)
by Anonymous | reply 106 | July 22, 2024 5:26 AM
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[quote]R103 I think the Lindbergh baby kidnapped himself.
Maybe! To get away from those AWFUL parents!
by Anonymous | reply 107 | July 22, 2024 6:01 AM
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So, when Nellie learns Emil has illegitimate children is that alone what throws her? Or is she straight up racist and shocked they’re mixed race - feeling she can never be a mother to them?
How does that play in productions today? Not well, I’d imagine.
by Anonymous | reply 109 | July 22, 2024 6:10 AM
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Straight up racist, I think, so the inclusion of “Carefully Taught.” But earlier, when she learns Emile is only in the South Pacific because he killed a man in France, her reaction is basically a shrug and “I know you must have had your reasons.” Such was 1949, I guess. Of course I never understood “Poor Jud is Dead” either—you know, the comic song where the main lead tries to get the community pariah to commit suicide.
by Anonymous | reply 110 | July 22, 2024 12:12 PM
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R109 “Straight up racist”…she’s from Arkansas and this is the 1940s, she’s never been anywhere before, WWII has thrust her into a new environment “so far away” from home as the song says.
She has the prejudices of her region and upbringing.
A big part of the resolution of the story is about how she overcomes those prejudices.
In the short story she thinks about how DeBecque’s kids are “n*****s.”
Cable has to deal with his background (as an upper class Philadelphian) as well, being in love with a Tonkinese girl.
Why wouldn’t this pay well, though? It was at the time that it didn't always play well — people wanted R&H and Logan to cut “Carefully Taught,” which they wouldn’t.
People today can’t accept that someone has prejudices and they can’t have the patience to watch a character overcome those pejudices? What a strangely simple-minded world it has become.
R110 Doesn’t Emile explain why he killed a man?
By the way, WWII and its aftermath (occupation of Japan) saw many Americans (most white, some black) falling in love with and marrying Japanese. And marrying Polynesians. Some of these people probably went to war with racial prejudices.
by Anonymous | reply 111 | July 22, 2024 12:32 PM
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R101 Okay, that’s good, thanks for the info.
My parents saw SP on tour maybe 1951 (?)…approximately. Because it was so popular it was booked into the largest theater in the city (that I think was being used at the time as a movie theater, usually). They saw it from balcony seats and always said they had difficulty hearing it. So just saying the miking must have been in a primitive state.
by Anonymous | reply 112 | July 22, 2024 12:39 PM
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The Lindburgh film was made in the late 50s. Kerr knew enough that he did not want to play the man. Wilder knew as well. And Wilder was at a point where he could make any film he wanted to. It is lost on us today what a great emotional moment for so many people this was in history though we know it's importance.
R111 gives a good summation of the themes of South Pacific. Of course the glorious powerful score brings the story to a whole new level making the themes more visceral hitting people in the gut in the late 40s. To say Bloody Mary is nothing but a pimp does her a great injustice. I don't know her role in the original story but in the musical she sees Cable falling in love with her daughter and her daughter marrying a white man would be a step up for her. Mary a very ambitious person of color has her own prejudices. But she wants Cable to stay that's why she would work so hard to keep her daughter close to her and to shield her daughter from the bigotries she would find in the States.
by Anonymous | reply 113 | July 22, 2024 12:56 PM
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I hate when I do this. 'its importance.' Why do I only see it after I enter it?
by Anonymous | reply 114 | July 22, 2024 12:58 PM
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[quote]The movie wasn’t popular and John Kerr wouldn’t have made it more popular.
It was the top=grossing movie of 1958.
by Anonymous | reply 115 | July 22, 2024 1:11 PM
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Also Mary's reaction to Cable rejecting her daughter is not heartbreak for her daughter it is enormous anger. The same anger Cable's parents would have if he married a woman of color. Nellie's reaction to Cable's death and of Liat's loss is of heartbreak due to her youth and her changing attitude.
by Anonymous | reply 116 | July 22, 2024 1:13 PM
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R110 here, yes, Emile explains (“he was a very bad man”—uh, okay?) but Nellie sticks around to give him a chance to explain. When she meets his children, she flees in horror and refuses to see him, and I would have thought, even in 1949, the disparity between the two reactions (possibly the point) seems off. I don’t think it is just “simple-minded” to look at past works with a contemporary sensibility and have a hard time enjoying Nellie’s knockabout rendition of “Honey Bun” after we have seen this side of her, even if true to her time and upbringing. What to do with Curly prompting Jud to kill himself?—just say “well, that’s the way they were back then.”
by Anonymous | reply 117 | July 22, 2024 1:17 PM
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Billy Bigelow beating up Julie…but when you love someone, it doesn’t hurt…
by Anonymous | reply 118 | July 22, 2024 1:24 PM
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It isn't a reaction of horror. It is one of great confusion and upsetment. She is on the verge of tears.
by Anonymous | reply 119 | July 22, 2024 1:29 PM
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[quote] Nice try.
R115 I was talking about The Spirit of St. Louis (1957). Kerr WAS in South Pacific, he was not in TSOSL.
Kerr would not have made it a bigger hit, was my point. He was not a big box office draw. Stewart was (and despite being in his mid-40s he does give a great performance that holds the interest. The age is a problem, of course).
General point: Wilder said he was fascinated by Lindbergh’s flight. He was in Europe at the time (maybe in Paris). What Lindbergh did captured his imagination. TSOSL was a best selling book in the mid-‘50s, and he became enamored of making a film of it. He was very much on the fence about casting Stewart but Stewart was also obsessed with Lindbergh and portraying him, and he worked on Wider quite a bit.
Also, Lindbergh did support the US once we went to war. FDR I believe had taken away his military commission due to his America First activities but he was involved in the war as a civilian flyer.
Wilder was of course working to some extent with Lindbergh on the film so to say he had no historical knowledge of the man’s politics is ridiculous. Wilder was a smart, sophisticated man of the world.
The only somewhat younger stars who were tall enough to play Lindy at the time, that I can think of, were Charlton Heston and Rock Hudson — both too beefy. Tab Hunter might have been great, but I don’t think he was taken seriously at the time.
by Anonymous | reply 120 | July 22, 2024 1:39 PM
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[Quote] Did Mitzi Gaynor decide to leave Hollywood,
She left the business and became an attorney.
by Anonymous | reply 121 | July 22, 2024 1:47 PM
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John Kerr aged into a silver fox
by Anonymous | reply 123 | July 22, 2024 1:50 PM
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R117 Why would she stick around to give hm a chance to explain? Someone you know and like says he killed someone once, and you should just cancel him w/out even letting him explain? Al I can say to that is: “Interesting.” Because it makes no sense to me.
And yes I guess you are supposed to grasp that a young, somewhat naive and inexperienced girl who grew up in the South at that time and is encountering new people and social customs halfway around the world would react the way she did. You’re not required to think like her. Just observe her, and identify in the sense that we all have cultural prejudices and judgments to overcome.
Today it seems like racism has become the cardinal sin in our culture to the exclusion of anything else, so that people can’t even understand how it happens, or forgive people who overcome their racism.
by Anonymous | reply 124 | July 22, 2024 1:50 PM
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I wonder if Mitzi ever bitched with Joshua Logan about Marilyn Monroe. He had done Bus Stop with Marilyn and Mitzi resented how Fox gave Marilyn more attention on There's No Business.
by Anonymous | reply 125 | July 22, 2024 1:55 PM
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People in certain regions and cultures are CONDITIONED to have deep-seated prejudices, including racial. Hence the song, “You’ve got to be carefully taught.” It’s the whole theme of the show (that won a Pulitzer Prize for drama, btw—very unusual for a musical, then). You are supposed to hate the culture that created the prejudice, not hate all the people in that culture.
by Anonymous | reply 126 | July 22, 2024 1:56 PM
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I love those '50s studs. You know they were getting sucked off left and right by all the studio queens.
by Anonymous | reply 127 | July 22, 2024 1:57 PM
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[quote]“Straight up racist”…she’s from Arkansas and this is the 1940s, she’s never been anywhere before, WWII has thrust her into a new environment “so far away” from home as the song says.
Harder to accept when Nellie is a 54-year-old played by G.
by Anonymous | reply 128 | July 22, 2024 2:06 PM
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Btw I think they made this movie too big, gorgeous and spectacular (And they used those stupid filters that take you out of the story). It takes pace in the Hebrides, it was filmed in Hawaii and the Caribbean in the most gorgeous locations they could find. Emile’s plantation is overly lush-looking. The rather small story tends to get lost. The orchestrations are also too lush and big. It should have been more intimate. Logan was a good director and his opening-up of a story worked for Picnic, a little less for Bus Stop. Then much less for SP and everything he did after it.
by Anonymous | reply 129 | July 22, 2024 2:13 PM
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I never understood (until just now, actually) that Bloody Mary and her daughter were themselves immigrants to the islands
by Anonymous | reply 130 | July 22, 2024 2:25 PM
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[quote] It takes pace in the Hebrides
I think you meant NEW Hebrides. The Hebrides are in Scotland.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 131 | July 22, 2024 2:36 PM
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R131 You are correct, yes. Sorry.
by Anonymous | reply 132 | July 22, 2024 3:00 PM
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R131 Isn't that where Barbra said her friends were visiting from when she tried to check into the Hotel Bristol in "What's Up, Doc?"
by Anonymous | reply 133 | July 22, 2024 3:03 PM
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It isn't just people today who can't handle people being prejudiced.. As a five year old seeing the movie, I couldn't see why two absolutely adorable Asian children would be a deal killer. I thought they were cool. I wished I was them. The sailors doing the Bloody Mary dance were scary and I think my mother explained that sailors needed to blow off steam. My relatives in WWIi liberated concentration camps and dodged Rommel the Desert Fox so I don't think they did a lot of drag. But who knows?
by Anonymous | reply 134 | July 22, 2024 3:45 PM
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It wasn't the kids exactly - it was that Emile had stuck his dick in a native woman.....they were just the result of his escapades.
by Anonymous | reply 135 | July 22, 2024 3:51 PM
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Racism doesn’t make sense to kids
by Anonymous | reply 136 | July 22, 2024 3:52 PM
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I mean to the viewer who watched as a kid. I remember watching Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner and not getting it either
by Anonymous | reply 137 | July 22, 2024 3:53 PM
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I don't think R138 knows what "moobs" are.
by Anonymous | reply 139 | July 22, 2024 4:03 PM
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This isn’t a movie made for 5 year olds. The show had adult themes, for the time. By 1958 —9 years later in a rapidly-changing world—movies and shows had become even moe adult and maybe SP was even a little behind the times.
But anyway, it isn’t a kids’ movie so while I think these opinions based on “five year old me” are interesting, and all, what’s the point? You were 5. Not the target audience of a movie about a war that people at the time remembered or the adult relationships involved. Not all musicals are children’s movies.
by Anonymous | reply 140 | July 22, 2024 4:23 PM
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It was most definitely seen as a film for families. Color movies were still an event. Back then, people loved Broadway musicals and played the cast albums until the vinyl was threadbare. Disney films were released every few years. Pixar did not exist. For children's fare, kids stayed home and watched cartoons--generally the same ones over and over.
My parents also took me to see Gigi, which was about a teen prostitute being readied for an older man. People were not precious about children as they are today. I guess they thought we were too dumb to pick up on this stuff. We were all steeped in WWiI lore as the great war so while they might not have taken us to "The Naked and The Dead," "South Pacific"s was seen as harmless.
The five-year-old me stuff is not an attempt to be precious but to accurately relay the experience of the film in its day. I'm sure prejudiced people got a life lesson, which was a constant theme after Brown v Board and well into the 60s. We had these lessons drilled in via school and religious education as well, but there was less crap to override than in my parents' generation.
Now back to talking about how hot these guys were.
by Anonymous | reply 141 | July 22, 2024 4:47 PM
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[quote]I don't think they did a lot of drag. But who knows?
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 142 | July 22, 2024 5:25 PM
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I'm fascinated by this whole John Kerr/Charles Lindbergh thing.
First of all, that Kerr would be offered the role in 1957 when all he'd really done in Hollywood was play the lead in Tea and Sympathy, a young man, because of his soft demeanor, who was suspected of being homosexual. Hardly a crowd pleaser nor the sort of image, I would think, the studio and Billy Wilder would want to portray a famous all-American hero.
And then secondly, that Kerr would turn down such an important role so early in his Hollywood career. Surely by reading the screenplay it would be clear that Lindbergh would be portrayed with the utmost sympathy and reverence and with no mention of Nazi or right-wing leanings. I'd think, just the opportunity to work with Billy Wilder, at the height of his powers, would be enough incentive to accept the offer.
I'm not doubting any of this. I just find it really curious and wonder if there's more documentation, interviews, etc, about all of it.
by Anonymous | reply 145 | July 22, 2024 8:15 PM
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Well Kerr was as they say a hot actor at that moment in time. The play of Tea was a big hit and he got cast in the movie and then SP so though not tall he had that lanky look about him. Remember Andrews had made three films before one had been released. If Stewart was in his 40s he looks like he was in his 50s. It totally took me out of the film. Though the take-off is a stunning piece of film making.
Upsetment is a word.
by Anonymous | reply 146 | July 22, 2024 9:25 PM
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[quote]R138 Stew Pot has MOOBS
This aside, why is he called Stew Pot? Does he work in the kitchen and soup is his specialty? Does he sit silently in corners, stewing over grievances? Is he a wide mix of nationalities - a cultural stew?
I am strangely upset by this unexplained [italic]stew-pidity.
by Anonymous | reply 147 | July 22, 2024 11:10 PM
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Except South Pacific was shot after The Spirit of Saint Louis so Kerr's casting in the former would have had no impact on his casting in the latter, r146. And was Kerr really that hot a property after a film (and stage play) like Tea & Sympathy? Sorry, but I don't buy it.
Though, apparently, he was offered the Lindbergh role so what I think doesn't matter.
by Anonymous | reply 148 | July 22, 2024 11:49 PM
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Connie Stevens was for some reason desperate to play Eliza Doolittle in My Fair Lady.
I wonder if she badgered the South Pacific producers, too.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 149 | July 23, 2024 12:19 AM
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Connie was one of few young female stars under contract to Warner Bros. who produced MFL. So, of course, she thought she was entitled to be considered. I'm actually old enough to remember the big story in one of those mid-60s movie magazines that carried the article in which she made her case.
But she was only just getting started in 1958 so even she wouldn't have felt Nellie Forbush was due her.
by Anonymous | reply 150 | July 23, 2024 12:49 AM
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Well clearly for that moment in time he was very hot. Logan, R&H, Minnelli and Wilder all wanted him Though it was admittedly short lived.
I wish he had made more movies. I found him very appealing.
by Anonymous | reply 151 | July 23, 2024 1:46 AM
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[quote] And then secondly, that Kerr would turn down such an important role so early in his Hollywood career. Surely by reading the screenplay it would be clear that Lindbergh would be portrayed with the utmost sympathy and reverence and with no mention of Nazi or right-wing leanings.
The point seems to have gone over your head. He didn't want to play Lindbergh because of the man's pro-Nazi sympathies. He objected to Lindbergh as a person. It didn't matter how he was portrayed in the film.
by Anonymous | reply 152 | July 23, 2024 1:53 AM
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[quote]Lindbergh was a consultant on the picture, which necessitated spending time with the director. They flew together on a commercial flight from L.A. to Washington where the flyer wanted to show the director his plane, on permanent display at the Smithsonian Institution. When the airliner hit some turbulence, according to Ed Sikov: "Wilder leaned over to his seat mate and said 'Mr. Lindbergh, would it not be embarrassing if we crashed and the headlines said, 'Lone Eagle and Jewish Friend in Plane Crash?' He just smiled. He knew exactly what I had in mind.'"
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 153 | July 23, 2024 2:02 AM
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"Kerr declined to play the role of Charles Lindbergh in The Spirit of St. Louis because he did not respect Lindbergh's early alleged support of the Nazi regime in Germany before America's entry into World War II. 'I don't admire the ideals of the hero,' Mr. Kerr told The New York Post." --Wikipedia
I was going to post this earlier but didn't know if anyone would be interested, but his mother was June Walker, who was a Broadway star and co-starred with Henry Fonda in his first major play, The Farmer Takes a Wife (which he repeated on screen, but with Janet Gaynor).
His father was Geoffrey Kerr, an actor, and his grandfather was Frederick Kerr, who played the father of the hero (Douglass Montgomery) and the hero's sister (Bette Davis) in the original film version of Waterloo Bridge (1931).
Acc. to Wikipedia, He went to Phillips Exeter for prep school, graduated from Harvard, and did graduate work at Columbia. In 1953–1954, he received critical acclaim as a troubled prep school student in Robert Anderson's play Tea and Sympathy. In 1954, he won a Tony Award, New York Drama Critics Award, and Donaldson Award for his performance.
He didn't make that many movies but he did a lot of stage work in California and also was involved in presenting theater. Then he went to UCLA law school and became a practicing lawyer, still acting on occasion.
by Anonymous | reply 154 | July 23, 2024 2:05 AM
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And he was chosen by KAZAN at the height of his importance and powers to be the male Lead in Tea. How can you say he wasn't hot?
by Anonymous | reply 155 | July 23, 2024 2:30 AM
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Actually, it's common knowledge that Kerr was actually the son of Franchot Tone, who June Walker was performing opposite in the play "Green Grow the Lilacs," the source material for Oklahoma. The two were having an affair. Kerr looks just like him.
by Anonymous | reply 156 | July 23, 2024 2:52 AM
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I think John Kerr was very sought-after for a while but how long did it last?
By the way, the year before SP was released he was in The Vintage (with Pier Angeli and Mel Ferrer) which was directed by Eva Marie Saint's husband, Jeffrey Hayden. I tried watching it once. Hayden was a TV director. After that MGM movie he went back to TV (where he was successful for many years). Other than Tea and Sympathy and South Pacific, J. K. didn't make many good movies. Also I think he was on the dull side. After all, how many actors end up becoming lawyers in their 40s?
by Anonymous | reply 157 | July 23, 2024 3:02 AM
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Elia Kazan made his stage debut as an actor in 1932 with "Pure in Heart," which starred June Walker.
by Anonymous | reply 158 | July 23, 2024 3:02 AM
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I remember John Kerr on TV's "Peyton Place." I hadn't yet seen "South Pacific" and was surprised when I found out he played Cable.
by Anonymous | reply 159 | July 23, 2024 3:03 AM
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R156 I don't think it's common knowledge in 2024. But yes, that has always been the rumor. I never saw the resemblance, but it's been noted that Kerr's speech is similar to Tone's, which I definitely have noticed. I think he looked like his mother, though.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 160 | July 23, 2024 3:12 AM
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Here's a photo from Green Grow The Lilacs where Tone does look exactly like Kerr
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 161 | July 23, 2024 3:18 AM
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(With old battleaxe Helen Westley as Aunt Eller.)
by Anonymous | reply 162 | July 23, 2024 3:20 AM
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I remember reading in Logan's memoir that thy cast William Tabbert (who had previously played the lead in the semi-flop R&H show, Allegro) as Lt. Cable. They tried to get him to be sexier in the role, to little avail. Then Logan had the idea to have his pants tightened. They tightened the pants so much he suddenly had a great ass and the women patrons started to find him very sexy. Of course Logan would think of this.
by Anonymous | reply 163 | July 23, 2024 3:30 AM
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Funny that Ed Sullivan says Younger Than Springtime hasn't had the acclaim it deserves (at that time). It certainly did eventually.
Someone explain why there are so many Broadway singers today who have extraordinary voices. It seems very common. Tabbert has a lot of character in his voice and has a good voice (he can hit the notes), and there's something moving about his rendition of this number and You Are Never Away in Allegro, but most male ingenues today in musicals have stronger voices.
by Anonymous | reply 166 | July 23, 2024 3:45 AM
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Kerr clearly didn’t have the killer instinct to be a big star, if he would turn down the opportunity to play an American “hero” for Billy Wilder. He had that thing…what’s it called again….oh yeah - integrity.
by Anonymous | reply 167 | July 23, 2024 6:42 AM
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R157 Girl of the Night is a good film, Anne Francis should have been nominated
by Anonymous | reply 168 | July 23, 2024 6:43 AM
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I like the scene in the Tea and Sympathy movie when Darryl Hickman is trying to teach John Kerr how to walk like a man.....and he ends up with a blob of shaving cream on the fly of his pants.....it looks like cum....of course in the next shot - it's gone......
by Anonymous | reply 169 | July 23, 2024 1:58 PM
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I think it's in Kazan's autobio where when performances of Tea began the final line got laughs. 'And you will be kind.' They were completely baffled as to why people were laughing and they didn't know what to do. Then as performances continued the laughter just stopped.
by Anonymous | reply 170 | July 23, 2024 4:24 PM
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Actually, r170...
[quote]Years from now when you talk about this - and you will - be kind.
by Anonymous | reply 171 | July 23, 2024 5:42 PM
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Punctuation matters, R170.
by Anonymous | reply 172 | July 23, 2024 6:13 PM
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John Kerr is a fine actor, but the voice they used to dub him when he sang always sounds so artificial.
What always surprises me about this movie is that Mitzi Gaynor, who never otherwise gave any evidence she could act or do anything but look adorable, is actually quite fine in the seasons where she's anguished about her ethical choices.
Stew Pot always looks like the station's male whore. I hugely appreciate him for that.
by Anonymous | reply 173 | July 23, 2024 6:25 PM
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No matter the punctuation the line is still hilarious.
by Anonymous | reply 174 | July 23, 2024 7:34 PM
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Kazan had also known Broadway co-star Leif Ericson from his Group Theatre days with Ericson's wife Frances Farmer.
by Anonymous | reply 175 | July 23, 2024 7:35 PM
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R170 Years from now, when you talk about this--and you will--be kind.
by Anonymous | reply 178 | July 24, 2024 12:51 AM
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I've told this story before but Mitzi is a client of the company I work for. She used to come to the office to conduct her business and she would tell stories of the gay orgies that went on during filming on that remote Hawaiian island. She wasn't being judgmental cause "What the fuck else are they going to do in that remote place other than drink and fuck" what a hoot she was!
by Anonymous | reply 180 | July 24, 2024 1:51 AM
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R180 - do you know how she is these days?
by Anonymous | reply 181 | July 24, 2024 2:02 AM
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R173 Hollywood got attached to a few voices and used them interchangeably. Bill Lee was a great match for Christopher Plummer, but not John Kerr. Ditto Marni Nixon, blended perfectly with Deborah Kerr in The King and I, but laid an egg for Audrey Hepburn and Natalie Wood
by Anonymous | reply 183 | July 24, 2024 7:03 AM
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Bali Ha'i is the first thing that comes to my mind about the movie.
by Anonymous | reply 184 | July 24, 2024 7:33 AM
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[quote].Ditto Marni Nixon, blended perfectly with Deborah Kerr in The King and I, but laid an egg for Audrey Hepburn and Natalie Wood.
Marni also dubbed Deborah Kerr's singing in "An Affair to Remember."
by Anonymous | reply 185 | July 24, 2024 10:54 AM
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Bill Lee also dubbed dancer Matt Mattox in Seven Brides For Seven Brothers, when his own voice was fine. In fact better for the character. Bill Lee sounded too polished and "Broadway/Hollywood."
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 186 | July 24, 2024 1:54 PM
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It's sort of like the weird thing that happened with Ava Gardner on Show Boat (1951). She recorded the vocals and the film was going to be released with them, then she was post-dubbed with Anita Warren at the last minute. The soundtrack album already had Ava's vocals on it and it went out that way. Nobody complained. It sold well. Similarly, Lux Radio Theater did a broadcast of Show Boat and most of the cast participated. Ava sang her own vocals and sounded fine.
by Anonymous | reply 187 | July 24, 2024 1:58 PM
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I honestly wish they would still dub the vocals in film's today. I still don't understand what LaLa Land was all about because the singing by both leads was so mediocre, not terrible, just not very good. It was supposed to be a celebration of the old Hollywood musical and yet in the old Hollywood musical the leads could either sing or were dubbed by someone who could, either way, the content was excellent. Not the case in LaLa Land.
by Anonymous | reply 188 | July 24, 2024 3:10 PM
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I have the Collectors Edition on DVD. I think it's a wonderful movie and score. No complaints here but I was introduced to it as a child, my parents loved it.
by Anonymous | reply 189 | July 24, 2024 3:15 PM
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R188 Rather than dubbing, how about casting musical performers who can sing and dance going in, not Ryan Gosling?
by Anonymous | reply 190 | July 24, 2024 3:33 PM
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Ryan Gosling started as a singer and a dancer, hon. He's not the strongest singer in the world, but he can absolutely dance.
by Anonymous | reply 191 | July 24, 2024 4:48 PM
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R191, but he can't sing well enough to be the lead in a musical or at least in the kind of musical LaLa Land attempted to be.
R190, I would love for them to cast performers who can sing and dance, but if they insist on casting 'stars' as they did in LaLa Land than I'd prefer that they just dub their vocals. Unless the point of LaLa Land was to celebrate mediocrity (and maybe it was) I really didn't understand why they allowed Gosling and Stone to sing their own songs.
by Anonymous | reply 192 | July 24, 2024 8:25 PM
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R192 I disagree. As I've seen more musicals over the years I've started appreciating that I'm hearing a good singer - like Seven Brides for Seven Brothers (for ex.) --it stars Howard Keel and Jane Powell and you get to appreciate these two being the actor-singers they are. I wouldn't want to have to see Charlton Heston or Burt Lancaster play Howard Keel's part, dubbed by somebody else--or Janet Leigh. or Grace Kelly in Jane's role, but dubbed. It takes you out of the movie. I hate what I call the "Marnie Nixon musicals."
by Anonymous | reply 193 | July 24, 2024 9:03 PM
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[quote]R193 I hate what I call the "Marnie Nixon musicals."
YES! All that dubbing is so completely fake/homogenized sounding, and immediately distancing. It’s hard enough for actors to appear natural when singing to playback of their own voice, let alone when someone else’s is layered on top.
Marilyn Monroe sang live in BUS STOP. The director just thought it would have more immediate reactions from her if she didn’t have to worry about matching a playback machine vocal. I think the studio was very against this and insisted it couldn’t be done… and he was genuinely like, “Why on Earth NOT?”
He also wrote it was shot with two cameras at once (one closer to her face, one showing her full body) so she wouldn’t have to go back and recreate anything for a second camera setup.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 194 | July 24, 2024 9:56 PM
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I don't mind if the dubbing is really good, like Marni doing King and I or Betty Wand doing Gigi. When I saw them as a kid, I had no idea they were dubbed. Most of the time, though, I agree.
by Anonymous | reply 195 | July 24, 2024 11:52 PM
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Musical dubbing throughout Hollywood history is about as uneven and puzzling as wig design.
by Anonymous | reply 196 | July 24, 2024 11:57 PM
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I guess the problem was in the 50s and 60s they were still doing big musical adaptations from Broadway, but there wasn't that 30s/40s ecosystem of Hollywood musicals supporting stars who could actually sing and dance. So they had to cast with dramatic stars, with a mixed bag of results.
by Anonymous | reply 197 | July 25, 2024 12:10 AM
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R195 I guess Betty Wand did a good job because Leslie Caron was no singer (though didn't she eventually sing in a stage musical (perhaps Grand Hotel)? But this is recreated from Leslie's demo (hence the piano heard on the recording along with the orchestra) and once again I prefer hearing her voice coming out of her, It has more poignance than the Betty Wand vocal and also her voice matches her facial expressions.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 198 | July 25, 2024 12:54 AM
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They used Leslie's real voice in her other songs so this dubbed scene really takes me out.
by Anonymous | reply 199 | July 25, 2024 1:00 AM
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R199 I don't think they used her real voice on the other songs. just here and there when she spoke-sang.
by Anonymous | reply 200 | July 25, 2024 1:03 AM
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Caron was definitely dubbed on The Night They Invented Champagne. But very well-matched.
by Anonymous | reply 201 | July 25, 2024 1:55 AM
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Interestingly Jourdan's own voice is used in Gigi and he sings those wonderful Lerner and Loewe songs extremely well. Yet Lane had him fired from Clear Day because he didn't like his voice. It's unfortunate because Harris needed a star power to match her own which Cullum could not. It probably would have been a more successful musical. Jourdan would have even been better than Montand in the film of Clear Day if they had to use a Frenchman. Of course the perfect casting in that one would have been Streisand and Sinatra. But who would have gotten star billing? And when they were both complaining about the other who could have dealt with that?
by Anonymous | reply 202 | July 26, 2024 1:28 AM
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James Stewart in some MGM musical(Born to Dance?) introduces the Cole Porter classic Easy to Love. Why Porter and Mayer agreed to this I have no idea. Maybe they thought people would find it charming. I guess people did though I don't. To me it is simply painful. Like Henry Fonda singing Beguin the Beguine.
by Anonymous | reply 204 | July 26, 2024 1:38 AM
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I, for one, have always loved Jimmy Stewart's version of Easy to Love and think dubbing him, with his very distinctive speaking voice, would have been ridiculous. And maybe they tried and realized it didn't work and they didn't need the dubbing.
OTOH I've always found it puzzling that a studio like MGM in the 1930s didn't have a handsome young male singing star under contract to fill roles like the one Stewart played in that film (where his true talents were largely wasted). Not Nelson Eddy but someone young and sexy like Tony Martin, who they only seemed to employ occasionally.
by Anonymous | reply 205 | July 26, 2024 1:47 AM
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Please.
Mitzi is such a dick wilter in that movie one wants to feed her to the volcano.
by Anonymous | reply 206 | July 26, 2024 1:50 AM
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Having seen On a Clear Day.... I can tell you that Barbara Haris was so fabulous she didn't need Louis Jourdan, who would have seemed like someone from another era, getting in the way of her brilliant performance.
John Cullum sang his songs gorgeously and handsome Clifford David supplied all the sex appeal necessary in the Melinda scenes.
I can't imagine Jourdan singing those songs with any sort of passion or authority, no matter what he may have accomplished in Gigi.
by Anonymous | reply 207 | July 26, 2024 1:53 AM
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Oh for chrissakes, it was MGM. They *all* had to do a musical number.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 208 | July 26, 2024 2:13 AM
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R204 the story is that up-and-coming young actor Jimmy Stewart showed up one night at Cole Porter's door. After that, Cole insisted he sing the number.
by Anonymous | reply 209 | July 26, 2024 2:14 AM
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R205 MGM also had young and sexy Dennis Morgan in the late 30s, but let him go.
by Anonymous | reply 210 | July 26, 2024 2:15 AM
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But they didn't use Morgan much in musicals, did they? Is he the one who sang on the staircase in The Great Ziegfeld but was dubbed by someone else?
by Anonymous | reply 211 | July 26, 2024 2:18 AM
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That personification of youth and beauty and joy and happiness...
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 212 | July 26, 2024 2:23 AM
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R211 yes he sang A Pretty Girl is Like a Melody but was dubbed by Allan Jones.
by Anonymous | reply 213 | July 26, 2024 2:30 AM
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R205 Tony Martin was under contract to Fox in the late 30s
by Anonymous | reply 214 | July 26, 2024 2:34 AM
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But yes they could have borrowed him
by Anonymous | reply 215 | July 26, 2024 2:34 AM
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Tony Martin was in MGM's Ziegfeld Girl in 1940 and sang You Stepped Out of a Dream. I don't understand why they didn't keep him around.
by Anonymous | reply 220 | July 26, 2024 3:04 AM
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R205 They had Allan Jones. I don't think there were all that many young male singing stars to choose from. Young male singers may have been common (or not), I don't know, but not singing movie stars. Jimmy Stewart had star quality and could carry a movie.
MGM tried out Kenny Baker (from The Jack Benny Program) in the Marx Bros, movie, At The Circus. They tried Douglas McPhail. The only other male singing stars at other studios I can think of were Bing Crosby (Paramount) and Dick Powell (Warner Bros.).
by Anonymous | reply 221 | July 26, 2024 3:10 AM
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We'll just throw some tinsel on Judy.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 222 | July 26, 2024 3:12 AM
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R220 he went into the Navy after Ziegfeld Girl and The Big Store in 1941, and didn't make another film until 1946.
by Anonymous | reply 223 | July 26, 2024 4:15 AM
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Tony Martin and Lana Turner lived together during the time they were making Ziegfeld Girl
by Anonymous | reply 225 | July 26, 2024 4:26 AM
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Did she come out of a dream, r225?
by Anonymous | reply 226 | July 26, 2024 4:34 AM
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The real star of that scene is the curtain. Wonder how many takes it took to get the fall right.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 227 | July 26, 2024 6:15 AM
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Cullum is wooden next to Harris no matter how good his voice and Montand is I don't know what but he is not comfortable. But he has some beautiful music to sing. Streisand needed somebody much better in that musical. When you have Melinda, On a Clear Day and Come Back to Me to sing it is not simply a one woman show.
Gable is very funny and charming singing the already well established Puttin on the Ritz. I believe the Stewart charming the pants off of Porter story. It's the worst rendition of a Porter song in a movie.
Until At Long Last Love.
Some people are simply good enough to get away with it and are charming like Sharif in Funny Girl.
by Anonymous | reply 228 | July 26, 2024 8:53 AM
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Jimmy Stewart used to sing at Princeton. I don't know if you've heard a lot of recordings from that particular time, but he sounds like singers from that era.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 229 | July 26, 2024 11:51 AM
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Same vocal, better sound. At 7:25.
I believe Jose Ferrer also sang in Triangle shows and there are recordings of him.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 230 | July 26, 2024 11:56 AM
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Sorry, wrong link. This is it, at 7:25.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 231 | July 26, 2024 11:57 AM
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R227 Two according to imbd:
[quote]The sequence "A Pretty Girl Is Like a Melody" was filmed in two lengthy takes after several weeks of rehearsals and filming (a definite cut is made when moving to a close-up on the singer dressed as Pagliacci, presumably to effect a change of camera position, necessary to start the inexorable move up the huge staircase). It features 180 performers and cost $220,000; 4,300 yards of rayon silk were used for the curtains in the scene.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 232 | July 26, 2024 12:29 PM
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R232 - that is very confusingly written - it says “two takes”, but also “several weeks of rehearsal and filming.” I think it should have been worded “the entire scene is covered in only two lengthy, complex camera moves.”
Realistically, on elaborate shots like that, the actual film stock is the least expensive component. And even if the first take of the staircase / crane / curtain shot had gone off perfectly, there is no way in hell they wouldn’t have shot a few more back-ups for safety.
by Anonymous | reply 233 | July 26, 2024 1:06 PM
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The sequence actually runs for eight minutes so wonder it took so much preparation. The curtain goes up for Rhapsody in Blue and then come down again for the end.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 234 | July 26, 2024 2:16 PM
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That sequence is presented as an example of the excellence in detail achieved by MGM in its heyday. For some reason I find it quite moving.
by Anonymous | reply 235 | July 26, 2024 2:22 PM
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So much knowledge in this thread.
by Anonymous | reply 236 | July 26, 2024 8:57 PM
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MGM was not noted for making great musicals in the '30s. They did make gargantuan ones, sometimes, like Great Ziegfeld, and Rosalie. But they didn't have Busby Berkeley, or (at least in the 1930's) Astaire (just one time - his film debut). MGM brought Clifton Webb to the studio partly because they wanted an Astaire of their own, and he was a Broadway dancer-singer-actor. They kept him around for a year in th mid-'30s and never used him in a movie. The biggest musical triumphs of the '30s for MGM other than the Eleanor Powell movies were the Nelson Eddy-Jeannette MacDonald operettas. (The Wizard of Oz was almost 1940 so I'm not including it.)
by Anonymous | reply 237 | July 27, 2024 7:20 AM
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The forgotten stud of the island, Floyd Simmons as Bill
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 238 | July 27, 2024 8:09 AM
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More about the gay orgies please.
by Anonymous | reply 239 | July 27, 2024 2:33 PM
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R238 Never married, quit Hollywood and became an accomplished artist.
Nuff said.
by Anonymous | reply 240 | July 27, 2024 5:32 PM
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R241 My favorite Martian seems interested in what's below Floyd's belt.
by Anonymous | reply 242 | July 27, 2024 5:54 PM
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[quote] Nuff said
Are you implying he was gay, r240? This butch man? Don’t be silly…
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 243 | July 27, 2024 5:56 PM
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R243 He's a little teapot.
by Anonymous | reply 244 | July 27, 2024 5:57 PM
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Fine. He looks fine in a uniform, R243. But what about earrings and a caftan?
by Anonymous | reply 245 | July 27, 2024 6:03 PM
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(Knowing I will regret this question)
[quote]Fine. He looks fine in a uniform, [R243]. But what about earrings and a caftan?
Does anyone look good in earrings and a caftan?
by Anonymous | reply 246 | July 27, 2024 6:28 PM
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Ken Clark and Ed Fury could have done whatever they wanted with me. Even Ray Walston looked hot in the coconut bra and grass skirt.
by Anonymous | reply 247 | July 27, 2024 6:31 PM
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^^^^ Was she in the film too? I must've blinked. 😉
by Anonymous | reply 249 | July 27, 2024 9:46 PM
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It's been decades since I've seen the film of South Pacific, but this thread has piqued my interest.
by Anonymous | reply 250 | July 27, 2024 9:53 PM
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The bluray is supposed to be very good though I haven't opened my copy yet. I did have the opportunity to see it once in the long gone Cinerama theater in Times Square in a Todd AO print and it was a helluva lot better than the bore it always appeared to be on TV. I enjoyed it a lot. The restored bluray version is the 2 and a half hour version and not the complete 3 hour roadshow(first run)version. Though they include the 3 hour version unrestored. Kind of odd. Maybe it would have cost too much money.
by Anonymous | reply 251 | July 27, 2024 11:02 PM
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R251 -- They may not have had been able to track down negative for the 3 hour version, so they probably just transferred whatever print they found.
You would be shocked at what a state of disarray and neglect much of Hollywood's back catalogue is in -- proper archival care costs money and current management (at any time over the last 60 years) almost never wants to spend it on things from before their reign.
Hell, the original A & B rolls for the three hour version were most likely destroyed when they cut the film down, and why preserve inter-negs on a version that had finished it's run.
by Anonymous | reply 252 | July 28, 2024 3:43 AM
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Yes it’s tragic R252. So many films in a terrible state or lost to fires. So much raw masculinity from men who were really men.
by Anonymous | reply 253 | July 28, 2024 5:02 AM
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[quote]r246 Does anyone look good in earrings and a caftan?
Does anyone. Still wear. A caftan?
by Anonymous | reply 254 | July 28, 2024 5:11 AM
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Half the films made before 1950 are lost forever.
by Anonymous | reply 255 | July 28, 2024 5:21 AM
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R46, the color filters were literally the only visually interesting thing going on in those scenes. Who the fuck did the blocking and choreography and direction? Just static shots of a singer and static reaction shots of slack-jawed guys just staring. BORING. The "color corrected" version is barely better (and in some moments, worse), imho.
That said, nothing could really save that scene. LOVE the song, but damn.
by Anonymous | reply 256 | July 28, 2024 5:26 AM
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[quote] Logan was a good director
We beg to differ
by Anonymous | reply 257 | July 28, 2024 8:41 AM
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This is so funny. I mean people's reaction to films. I was listening to the soundtrack of Paint Your Wagon in my car last night which I love just for the men's chorus. After I got home I had to sit in my car and listen to Wandrin Star again. Yeah Barton on the obc is a better and more moving singer but he doesn't have that chorus behind him and Lerner wrote the best lyrics for the song for the film.
I got the film on 4K and put the soundtrack through my stereo system. So much fun.
Even Camelot which I thought was terrible decades ago doesn't come across as badly in bluray. And it has the great Alfred Newman doing the glorious conducting. Both films have John Truscott as production designer. He alone for me makes the films entertaining. Only movies he ever did. Redgrave's wedding dress in Camelot is one of the great costumes. And it's made of like pumpkin seeds?
by Anonymous | reply 259 | July 28, 2024 10:38 AM
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[quote]r259 Redgrave's wedding dress in Camelot is one of the great costumes. And it's made of like pumpkin seeds?
Yes, the back of that garment is embroidered with hanging pumpkin seeds : )
——————- [italic]”The exquisite wedding gown arrives in the movie, lit by candlelight, shimmering out of the darkness. It is designed with a bateau neckline, long sleeves, in an a-line shape with an attached cape that flows over the shoulders and arms and then drops into a large circular train. The overdress is composed of a gown crocheted from fine wool to resemble airy spider webs that had tiny shells sewed into the center of each one. It is open at the side for easy removal and tied with cords.
“Underneath is a shimmery kirtle (or cote-hardie) made of something resembling distressed velvet. The third and most dramatic element of the dress, the train, is made from fine mesh embroidered with another loose cobweb design in silver. Along this design, the fabric is embellished with bleached pumpkin seeds tied and hanging every few inches from the design, much like one would expect pearls on a couture gown.”
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 260 | July 28, 2024 12:56 PM
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R257
Well, I wrote:
[quote] Logan was a good director and his opening-up of a story worked for Picnic, a little less for Bus Stop. Then much less for SP and everything he did after it.
by Anonymous | reply 261 | July 29, 2024 12:54 AM
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