New Hulu documentary on Jonestown

Hasn't it already been sufficiently done? What's left for a "new" show to cover.

The audio of Jim Jones on the pulpit is frightening, he sounds like pure evil.

Fun fact- Jim's favorite show was Star Trek and he did a mean Shatner impression.

I have watched so much on this but will probably check the documentary out. I went to a christian school and they taught us about Jim Jones and showed a documentary, people who are religious are easier targets for cults. The miniseries came out whe nI was in junior high and one of the jokers in class used to cock his sunglasses and act like her was Jim Jones at the end.

The runway was the Rubicon. I can imagine the sphincters clenching, like Bert asking Reiner "Are we doing it? Now!?" in AoT's "Warrior" episode.

Most people don't realize that by the time they moved to Guyana the cult was anti-religion. Jones had gone full on Communist.

OP when I scrolled quickly on the homepage and saw this pic, I thought it was Jake Gyllenhaal.

Jim Jones is the role he was born to play.

David Dastmalchian would be great.

I belong to a vintage photo group on FB. Somebody in Houston posted a bunch of photo albums and baby pics they found in the trash. One of the baby photos had Larry Schacht written on it. They googled it and were shocked to discover he was the guy who mixed the Flavor-Aid at Jones town!

r5 did you wander into the wrong thread?

Interesting comment from another Jones town thread- "To add a crazy conspiracy theory, maybe Jones was plied with drugs and underaged sex partners by TPTB who then blackmailed him into doing mind control. Perhaps TPTB wanted to see if an entire population could be programmed to feel unsafe; to be overworked; to be told they were lucky to be employed and lucky to be alive; to be made to believe things that were said repeatedly by broadcasting propaganda 24 hour a day; to accept conditions that are detrimental their well being while others live lavishly; to fear reprisal and slander; to want to be a member of the group so badly that they'll accept abysmal living conditions and denounce anyone who questions the poor quality of life as being anti-whatever."

What fascinates me is when the people were leaving and he sent people to stop them, the poor Congressman was killed and his aide played dead for hours.

Also wasn't there somebody who hid in the compound under the bed or something? I can still hear Jones saying "mother mother mother" trying to get the mother and child to drink the Flavor Aid.

An elderly woman survived by hiding under the bed.

Jones didn't even have the balls to take his own life. He was shot by Annie Moore who was one of his mistresses.

It’s utterly depressing. They show bloated bodies with blurred faces.

I want to know what happened to the cute teenager in the blue T-shirt that made it to the plane with the congressman.

Larry Schacht was a former addict who got clean with help from The People's Temple. Jones paid his way through medical school in return for sexual favors.

A truly shocking crime. Not a mass suicide.

Didn't Deborah Layton say she had a threesome with Jones and Schacht or was that someone else?

Trump brought home the reality of manipulating weak minds with propaganda.

Carolyn Layton had threesomes with Jones and Shacht. She was married to Debbie's brother but also one of Jim's sister wives and mother of his child.

Both of Larry Layton's wives were appropriated by Jones. Yet Larry remained so loyal that he shot Congressman Ryan.

I remember as kid seeing the miniseries and it was shocking when they showed Jim making it with a guy. I don't think they showed actually their lips touching or anything though.

R12 That was Jackie Speier who served as in Congress for years after Rep Ryan's death.

How many documentaries are out there about Jonestown. It's just the same stuff over and over. Like the Waco docs.

I sometimes wonder if the MAGA cult will end in a similar way as Jonestown.

What a sad worked we live in that people can be controlled this way, that the wealthy withhold wealth to better mankind, and that a handful of people are able to gather massive control over others using lies, deceit and anger as fuel.

The can’t be enough Jonestown documentaries to show to blue haired Queers for Palestine.

Watching the first episode I can see how it would be appealing at first, your kids running around in nature and one big happy family. Jim Jones was nice looking when he first started out.

Don’t forget that even Charles Manson had his followers.

This is interesting, my heart is in my throat watching this in fear for these people. :(

Jones drew in vulnerable people who felt they didn't have a place in society. Blacks, gays , and women followed him because The Temple gave them a home and a family.

The people who built Jonestown said it really was a paradise before Jim showed up.

What do you think of his son? He was handsome when young. His *sighs* while being interviewed seem a bit staged. I believe he knew people were being tortured there but played dumb.

Stephan Jones admitted in another documentary years ago that he knew about people being tortured. I think it was the Jonestown: Paradise Lost documentary.

The book A Thousand Lives by Julia Scheeres noted that Stephan took part in humiliating and emotionally abusing people along with his father Jim. Stephan had a boa constrictor that he would use to terrify children and adults around Jonestown.

I think Stephan was jealous of his father and wanted to take over as leader of TPT.

I definitely don't think it was an accident that Stephan was out of town playing a basketball game the day of the murders. I've read about a million books on Jonestown and seen a hundred docs. They were at the end stage of their existence with the Stoens finally sending in some people to get their son back. Shit was going bad for awhile, I don't see them being interested in intermural sports. Also that cunt Liane whatshername wasn't even there and she still slit her kids' and her own throat so there was no reason Stephan couldn't die while away.

The black woman who escaped, smoking on camera and blowing the smoke in her toddler son's face.

Jonestown is my Roman Empire. Sadly not in the U.S so can't watch this.

But yes R6 I think its important to remember that. It bothers me when Jonestown gets written off as just a bunch of delulu religious nuts....it STARTED that way but by the end Jones was trash talking the bible and religion too. It's both fascinating and important especially in this day and age to realize how religion and politics can become virtually indistinguishable from each other and how megalomaniacs can use both for power.

R36 I trust Stephan. I am not surprised that he not only went along with some of the abuse in the church days.....so did nearly everyone else. But I think once the smoke in his mind cleared and he saw those bodies, he was as appalled and disturbed as anyone else. It's Tim Carter I never really trusted. If he hadn't been sent off with that money I have no doubt he would been forcing that cyanide shit on babies too.

Tim Carter is shady as fuck. He was part of the inner circle, his sister was married to Jim's son Lew. But he swears he had no idea what was happening. He just stood by in shock as his wife and son were poisoned.

R27 Hilarious knowing that Jim Jones appealed to the downtrodden and was basically a "woke" cult. A megalomaniac who wanted praise and power said the right things to people on the outskirts of society who needed love...hardly sounds like MAGA. Not saying MAGAS couldn't come up with their own brand of crazy cult but something like Jonestown could onky come from progessives.

I live in the DMV, and remember clearly reading the articles in the Washington Post. It was one of the few news organizations that had someone 'on the ground'. I distinctly remember that every single day, for over a month, the top headline in the Post was about Jonestown.

Another thing I recall is that the late comedian Mort Sahl was given a talk radio show on a DC AM station around that time, and I would listen to his show. He claimed that Jonestown was created/manipulated by the CIA. I was about to stop listening to him because it had become nothing more than proto-Glen Beck with 'Rockefeller' this, and 'Trilateral Commission' that, but he was abruptly fired.

Joaquin Phoenix could play Jim Jones but considering his history I don't think he would.

R41 Tim is a piece of shit. I'm in a Jonestown survivor group and I haven't gone in it in years but Tim's always in there. Where's the fucking money, Tim? You watched your wife and baby die and ran off with a suitcase of 500k. so where'd it go? Also, he infiltrated the Concerned Relatives group and is basically the one who set up the whole ambush. Fuck him.

In this Hulu documentary they said some of the survivors were Jonestown security, were some of them the ones who shot the people trying to leave on the airstrip?

Larry Layton was the airstrip shooter, he's the only one who will ever admit it. And he's out of prison now.

This still breaks my heart. I lived in SF during the years of the Moscone-Milk assassinations and the Jonestown Massacre. It felt like the entire city was in mourning. Then came AIDS.

Trauma after trauma.

Still a bit shell-shocked all these years later.

But I'm here.

Stanley Clayton claimed he saw fellow survivor O'Dell Rhodes poisoning people.

Did they ever talk to the pilot who took off without the passengers? Why did he do it, to save himself?

I'm sure he did R50. Some of those fucking moron survivors also went on to join other cults, because one is never enough. Teresa Kohl joined synanon I want to say. She's an asshole.

R51 I don't know if I ever heard about him talking. But yeah, I would imagine he took off to avoid the fucking gunman shooting all the news guys and Jackie Spier.

R50 the Milk /Mosconi connections to Jonestown are eery to, especially considering they were murdered only about 10 days or so after Jonestown. I admire the fuck out of Milk for alot of obvious reasons, but he was still a politician, and like many before and since he and Mosconi garnered the favors of very wrong people.

I still watch this movie all the time. Powers Boothe was a real piece of ass. Meg Foster, staple of the 70s, even Madge Sinclair and Levar Burton.

r49, me too. Grew up in SF. Was a junior in high school during those days. My personal sequence was: Patty Hearst, toxic family, having to take "est" which was a total bullshit cult, then Jonestown, then Milk/Moscone assassinations, the White Night riots. Went away to college, came out, moved home, then the AIDS epidemic. And now Trump.

EST! Oh man...yeah, my stepdad made my mom go, she saw through the bullshit immediately. EST is another cult I love to study. Rick Ross, the cult deprogrammer, not the record producer, had a site with many ESTy stories. They are still around and rebrand all the time.

R56 I ended up taking the gay version of EST, The Advocate Experience.

I got one very important thing out of that long weekend. I was terribly shy but was open enough to pursue a man I'd just met. We're still together. 44 years and counting.

What is EST?

EST is a cult that was around in the 70s, it stands for Erhart something something. Werner Erhart was the leader. It basically is people paying 200 bucks and up to stand around in a hotel conference room and be insulted and told that everything is their fault. They say shit like "What's your racket?" and they try and recruit everyone they know to also join. Soon all they do is go to more seminars and spend all their money on it. Valerie Harper was an Estie and a lot of other New York based actors. Oh here's a wiki. EST is the logical extension to Jonestown.

You fat whores couldn't have survived Jonestown. Every meal was rice-rice porridge,rice soup, rice with gravy.

r49, that's fantastic to hear! People can survive adversity.

The one thing I "got" from "est" was learning how to lie flat on the floor and do meditation at age 13. It was a trick they used to mass hypnotize/brainwash their paying joiners. They used dudes with smooth, AMSR voices to do the guided meditations to get people relaxed, and then they asked people to focus on their worst traumas and to shout them out. It was freaky hearing all of the 300 adults on the hotel ballroom floor freaking out or going through some sort of catharsis -- especially when I heard my mother's voice yell, "your husband dies of a heart attack when you're pregnant with your fourth child". I was her fifth child. She had some splainin to do... as did my older siblings.

The mass of people lying on the ground reminds me of Jonestown for some reason. I think that's what they were doing when they drank the Kool-Aid.

Not sure I'll watch this doc. (Of course I will, but not tonight).

I remember a quiet, kind, articulate young black woman who was a college dorm mate who also grew up in SF. We sat together with the same group at dinner in the cafeteria a few times. She avoided me except when other people were around. There was something off. Someone told me that her entire family died in Jonestown. This haunts me decades later. wish I knew what to say or do. Keeping quiet was probably best.

Jackie Spier, according to a friend who knows her, turned out to be a very monied, establishment Democrat who wasn't sympathetic to progressive, or sometimes even moderately liberal causes. That was disappointing to learn. I still respect her. She did push back against Republicans. Her husband, father of her kids, was killed by a drunk driver. Such tragedy.

I'll be leaving San Francisco this year for various reasons, but won't mind leaving the ghosts behind.

R17, that's Chris O'Neil who's gf was Brenda Parks. The Parks family had been followers since Indiana and their defection was a huge blow to Jim Jones. Patty Parks was killed on the tarmac. Sadly, Chris committed suicide by cop in 2014.

Not very dramatic, but: When this happened, I was clerking for a life insurance company the main clientele of which was poor Blacks. When the news broke, I saw a lot of frenetic consulting and back-and-forth in the VP's office for a few days, as suddenly they had to anticipate having a lot of claims to pay.

And plantains R61. Everything had plantains, and bugs for protein. They sure managed to get some proper food down for Ryan's visit though. They also had plenty of black hair dye for Father. The color was called "Raven" hence the title of the best Jonestown book, by Tim Reiterman.

Jones certainly wasn't deprived. He had meat with every meal and kepe a mini fridge stocked with beer,soda, and snacks.

"I can do anything for socialism... do anything. By inclination, the only thing I can do is be an aggressive heterosexual, with a man or a woman, I don't care, whatever you want, me to be the woman... I would do that for socialism!"

R64, they probably quirky determined that they don’t have to pay anything because they were “suicides”.

^quickly

R62, out of curiosity, why are you leaving and where are you going?

r70, retirement and difficulty negotiating stairs and hills and a house that's even twice my age. Not going far -- Sonoma County. BTW, some of SF's much exaggerated issues are showing signs of improving.

r71 - Sonoma County welcomes you. I moved here from the city too (although I had only lived there for 3 years before moving up here).

r72, thanks, Doll. And sorry - we will be part of your problem. Sonoma is for us a bargain, so we will enjoy those housing prices. Except for the occasional conflagration, it is paradise. Glad you found your way there. This will sound cloying and trite, but whenever my partner and I have visited up there, it is the random people we've encountered who stand out. It's like what I imagine small town America to be, except that everyone seems happy. And non-binary.

Our friends say, "Oooo... so, you're moving to Wine Country!". Wine Country is and always will be the middle shelf in aisle 12A at any Safeway.

Can't wait to get TF out of SF. Been planning this for years. Decades ago, I told myself that getting old in SF would be a problem. Too bad I didn't listen to myself sooner. Hoping to volunteer at a hospital in SR.

r72, plant your roots deep up there. You've landed where you belong.

Jones also died with about 2 million dollars. That's how you run a fucking cult! Manson's people had nothing, he wasn't going to get rich from them, and what is a cult for if not to make the leader wealthy?

$500,000 in cash at Jonestown which would be 2 million today. That was in the suitcases Tim Carter,Mike Carter, and Mike Prokes walked away with.The holdings of People's Temple were far greater.

Tim hasn't really had to answer for any of the shit he did. He infiltrated the Concerned Relatives which started the whole thing. He watched his wife and kid die and he walked off with money that he...what? buried? where is it?

A lot of drama went down in the aftermath of Jonestown. Survivors fighting with each other. The Paula Adams/Laurence Mann stuff was quite sad.

Leslie Wilson said she knows there are survivors who are still indoctrinated.

Article from 2022. Deborah Layton's book was optioned for film. This might not ever go into production. But, lol at Joseph Gordon Levitt being cast as Jones.

Didn’t DeDe and D’orethea get caught up in that?

Leonardo DiCaprio was also rumored to be playing Jones. That's even worse.

R81 I agree, DiCaprio would be worse than JGL.

R73, tell you more about retirement in Sonoma County. Am also planning to retire in California and am torn between SF and the coast/wine country. How many millions do you need to comfortably retire in Sonoma County?

^Please tell ME more.

R77 Oh yeah, I forgot about those two, they even had a kid together. But of course he was pissed to find that she was just a honeypot and he was complicit in letting them into Guyana. I know people also suicided after the fact but I don't think anyone was murdered.

R79 Layton's book was pretty good but she doesn't come off well to me. She talked her mom and brother into going there and her mom died a horrible, painful, death there of cancer and her brother was the airstrip shooter. And she just left them there.

[quote]Leonardo DiCaprio was also rumored to be playing Jones. That's even worse.

Shirley Jones maybe, but not Jim.

We had a thread on the worst idea for a musical. My favorite was Jonestown:The Musical featuring "It's Hot in This Here Jungle", What You Talkin' Bout, Dad?", and "Grapestomp".

They would probably do that R87. In my Jonestown survivor group there was a person who wanted info because they were writing a romance novel and wanted to use Jonestown as the the backdrop.

Was Tim Carter one of Jim's boy toys?

R89 Tim claims that when he met Jones, Jones said something like, "if you want me to fuck you in the ass, I will" but says he didn't take him up on it. I don't think he was but maybe. He was busy doing other shit and not in Jtown all the time like everyone else.

Tim was supposed to be in Georgetown but stayed for Ryan's visit.

Oh how convenient for him R91. Of course he was supposed to not be there. But even people not there could have partaken in the suicides. Sharon Amos slit her children's and her own throats, or she had help. At any rate, not being there was no excuse. Why didn't Stephan and the basketball team have to off themselves too?

Stephan wasn't favored by either parent. They preferred Jim. Jr. who was their adopted, black son which really must have stuck in his craw.

I think Marceline and he were pretty tight, were they not? Marceline being a fucking retard may make that worthless, though.

Why is a poster from here in the Jonestown Survivors group online?

Marceline was just as crazy as her husband. On the death tape she can be heard ordering someone to bring the children from the SCU. That was where sick and disabled kids were kept.

Good question R95. I don't remember why a person invited me into the group, but they did. It wasn't all survivors, it was also PT members and people who were just interested in it. It was like15 years ago. They were fucking trippy. I remember when Powers Boothe died some of them were happy, "good riddance! he made us all look bad with that movie." shit like that. Some were really stubborn and refused to admit they'd been fooled. Some joined other cults later and didn't learn at all. It was weird to be in there and see all the names I had read so much about.

Marceline probably enjoyed having some degree of power within Jonestown.

Stephan over the years will talk about how "loving" she was, "she was so sweet" etc. This was a piece he wrote for the Alternative Consideration of Jonestown &Peoples Temple site that Rebecca Moore runs through San Diego State University.

Thanks for answering r97, sounds interesting.

Stephan's loving,sweet mother was onboard with the suicide plans. Poison was discussed in a meeting and Marceline worried that some people would survive but end up with brain damage.

[Quote] Some joined other cults later and didn't learn at all.

That's fucking pathetic. It really does take a certain type to join a cult and this proves it.

I was addressing r97 above, sorry.

R101 I know, I honestly left the group because they were so fucking blameless despite joining other cults. Also, I was appalled by their celebration of Powers Boothe dying. It's like they really didn't learn and were more upset about looking stupid.

R98 What an asshole Rebecca Moore is too. Her sister was pretty evil, except when she killed Jim Jones. I find it gross that she makes money off owning the cult's stuff and her sis was one of the inner circle that made sure people died. She also refuses to call them a cult because it negates them or some nonsense. If you don't fucking call them a cult, they'll go join other ones. I just really dislike her.

[quote][R98] What an asshole Rebecca Moore is too. Her sister was pretty evil, except when she killed Jim Jones. I find it gross that she makes money off owning the cult's stuff and her sis was one of the inner circle that made sure people died. She also refuses to call them a cult because it negates them or some nonsense. If you don't fucking call them a cult, they'll go join other ones. I just really dislike her.

I get what you're saying about Rebecca. I dislike her, but at the same time I often go to the site because they did manage to get some pictures, letters, documents etc. I agree, she is gross for making money off the cult's stuff. I remember some years back a jonestown blog called her out on that and other BS. I also recall Stephan and Jim Jr being called out as well.

Was Vernon Gosney in the survivors' group?

R104 Yes I think he was, asshole Tim Carter was too. I don't think Vern ever posted but I know he talked to some people in there. Is he still alive?

R105 I look up Vern and he died in 2021. Obits say complications due to heart surgery. I recall he was HIV positive as well.

R106 Yes he was HIV positive, I think he wound up a cop in Hawaii so hopefully he had a much better life than he started. I remember now how I got in the group! Do you remember the Ryan Ferguson case? He was a good looking (it's the only reason people cared) 20 something in Ohio that was convicted, with his friend, of murder, all because the friend had a dream they did it. So he was locked up for like 12 years and a lot of people were trying to free him. I was in the Free Ryan facebook group and one of his lawyers and I started talking about Jones for some reason and he's the one who got me in the group. I believe he was friends with Vern and others and had interviewed them for a book or something. He's the person who really made me look and realize that John Victor Stoen was in fact, Jones' kid.

R107 I'm familiar with the Ryan Ferguson case. I remember seeing it covered on several TV shows and I did watch the documentary Ryan's dad did.

Ryan did get out, I forgot all about that. I hope he's doing well. Oh I wanted to say, Rebecca running the JT library reminds me of Sue Klebold doing Ted Talks. Yeah you lost someone, but your someone was the killer. Another evil woman there was Maria Katsaris, and her poor dad and brother. I know these people were victims too, but Maria really seemed to relish being a fucking bitch, I'm sure she had been bullied and now she was able to turn it around.

I remember when Ryan got out it was covered heavily in the media. I agree with you on in that I think the reason people cared so much about his case was because he was a good-looking white kid.

I just found this Endver doc channel on Youtube, I was up all night watching stuff about the Elan School, which was based off the Synanon cult, which I think imploded when Jonestown fell. It's really interesting.

R109 Maria Katsaris was an absolute cunt. The footage of her brother holding her hand, crying and begging her to come with him breaks your heart, but moreso for the brother than her who was shooting up babies full of cyanide just hours later. Thankfully the one good thing she did is rid her brother of the burden of having her as a sister.

Vernon Gosney seemed like a genuine sweetheart, one of the few of the survivors who never rang off any weird bells for me. Hope he is in peace now, if heaven exists with his baby too.

There was a documentary in 2018 called Jonestown: The Women Behind the Massacre. It aired on A&E and it focused on the Moore sisters, Maria Katasris, and Marceline. It's also on Hulu. I'll probably do rewatch tonight or tomorrow.

Anthony Katsaris survived the attack at the airstrip. Jim Jones was told that everyone was dead and he announced it on the death tape. Maria obviously didn't give a shit about her brother.

Vernon Gosney joined another commune - *after* Jonestown:

[quote] He moved to Maui in 1982 to join another commune, which later collapsed, and joined the police force in 1986.

Jonestown massacre happened in 1978.

What do you make of Vern's decision to leave his son behind?

R117 I dont think anyone expected what happened. He had decided to leave the moment Senator Ryan showed up because the place was hell on earth and was the 1st one to ask for help in getting out. I can't judge him for chosing to leave that hell especially when he couldn't have imagined what happened. Its not that he left the child alone or adrift, he left him with his mom.

The child's mom experienced complications during childbirth and was in a coma.

I recall reading an article that Vernon joined People's Temple shortly after his wife went into a coma. He said that since he had a biracial child, he liked the whole racial equality message that TPT was pushing. In the article, he talked about various older black women from PT who helped him with childcare. He also said one of the older women was a lesbian and it was open secret in the cult.

I'll try to find that article. It was very well written from what I recall and he talked about his friendship with Monica the young black woman who was his friend at Jonestown. Monica wasn't really a PT member, she had been sent to Jonestown by her family in hopes that she would quit using drugs/get clean.

Is this it?

I don't think Vern was into being a dad tbh

R121 I've read that one before. The other article I read was quite long as it detailed some of Vern's involvement with PT in San Francisco before Jonestown and he talked about what went on in Jonestown. His son Mark was pretty much under the care of a high ranking member named Edith Cordell at Jonestown.

R112 Thank you! Yes, also Tim and Grace Stoen are total assholes. Leaving their fucking kid there, and Tim, traveling around Europe to fucking chamber concerts and fancy restaurants. I would neck myself if I knew I had not only left my kid to die, but that the entire compound was going to die because of my kid.

R120 That Monica wasn't even a member is really heartbreaking. What shitty luck. I think there were a few people who had just joined like weeks ago and were rushed to Guyana. They hadn't ever even done a white night so they didn't know what the fuck was going on.On somelevel the people who had done many of them were relieved it was finally going to end. There's really not too many good guys. They knew Jones was full of shit with his faith healings and fake shootings, they also knew how they would beat members and their kids. They were just some nasty people.

To be fair John wasn't actually Tim's son and I think he only wanted custody to get back at Jones.

The Stoens didn't even claim John's body. He was buried in a mass grave.

Over on the Jonestown reddit forum, someone posted a childhood picture of Tim Stoen and he very much resembled John Victor

There's a recording of Jones ranting about how Grace agreed to have an abortion then backed out. She thought it would force Jim to leave Marceline and marry her. It was her fault they were stuck in that motherfuckin jungle.

I wonder if Marceline had Jim threatened in some way that kept him from filing for divorce.

Marceline was very respected by his followers. He was afraid that a divorce would cause many people to leave the temple. Grace wasn't well liked.

R128 I remember seeing that thread. I have always been mixed on who John's father was.

Grace briefly dated Tim Carter and she told him Jim was the father. That is if you believe Tim.

I don't believe Tim R133, he was in there as a heroin addict I think or a disgruntled military person, Grace was a fucking social climber through and through, there's no way she dated him.

Other temple members testified that Grace and Tim Carter dated, though.

Maybe he had a magical dick. Or there weren’t many options

Members were discouraged from dating outside the temple.

I only saw him in this documentary but Tim looked kind of cute when he was younger. But he and the Jones son I am skeptical about.

The People's Temple had about $40 million in the bank.

Jim had hundreds of free bibles shipped to Jonestown to be used for toilet paper.

Tim Carter is so creepy. His stories over the years don’t add up

I agree R140. I really dislike him. In a cult full of loathsome people, he stands out. I'm watching "Born in Synanon" and it turns out Synanon had shipped the Brittania Jeans and Adidas sneakers many of the dead in Jtown were wearing. Who knew? I guess Adidas could have easily gotten the "kool aid" (even though it was Flavor Aid) treatment and become untouchable for many years. It strikes me with the Jtown recordings and the Synanon ones, the people in the 70s spoke so harshly and ugly sounding. There's a difference in how we speak now and not just the vernacular. There's something scary and uneasy feeling about the way they talked. It could be the shrill craziness, I don't know, but listening to them is creepy. The one recording with twat Maria Katsaris going off about Grace Stoen is really gross. She's telling the masses how young John Victor Stoen would kill Grace Stoen if he could and she said he said he would like to hang her up by her titties and how impressed she is that a young mind would think of something this creative. The word "titties" is fucking gauche at any age, and not particulary profound for a kid to say. They just sound fucking awful and angry all the time.

I'm watching the Synanon doc on HBO and it's crazy how similar they are. At least Jim was handsome at one point. They basically do everything Jones did except leave the country and mix a vat of Flavor Aid. Jim also got a lot of people off drugs, I guess that was the big appeal of these cults. Take a junkie and make him a soldier, it's not a bad idea, but sadly, there's always some assholes that have to bring their kids into it.

Jones did plenty of drugs.

Annie and Carolyn were no beauties.

R144 No they were not. Nor was Maria. Debbie Layton was really pretty, all the others were gross 70s chicks. These dumb motherfuckers signed confessions for all kinds of shit which Jones held over them. It's really baffling anyone would be that dumb and over an obvious charlatan. They knew Jones was full of shit so why they would have such allegiance to him is weird. I still can't believe that John Victor is buried in a mass grave. He was pretty obnoxiuois though, I bet he would have been a dick when he grew up.

Grace Stoen was pretty.

[quote] Annie and Carolyn were no beauties.

Better-looking than the comb-over on the right side of the photo.

That's their dad.

....

I heard Stanley Clayton gas dementia. Odell Rhodes is dead. Is Tim Carter the last living witness to the massacre?

I think it may be on MAX now too

[quote] Stephan wasn't favored by either parent. They preferred Jim. Jr. who was their adopted, black son which really must have stuck in his craw.

Years ago, I read an article in which Jim Jr was interviewed and he admitted he was the favorite and was treated much better than Stephan. In a way, I feel bad for Stephan.

R150 Tim Carter’s creepy brother is alive afaik

Stephan is older but they chose to "honor" their black son by naming him Jim Jr. Jim Jones never wanted a biological child. He tried to end Marceline's pregnancy by kicking her in the stomach.

Jim jr has also been much more defensive of Jones than Stephen ever has been.

R16

I remember that news footage so clearly - happened when I was a month shy of 12 so I didn’t watch much if any news before this. I’ll never forget it.

Jim bragged that his looks were often compared to Elvis. This seems to be a trend with cult leaders.

Jim was good lookingR157, tan, dark hair and eyes, my kind of dude. I could see that.

I exploit you, still you love me...

R34 how could there be paradise in those inhumane conditions in the jungle. It seems absolutely miserable to me.

Interesting how much the story follows Hearts of Darkness/Apocalypse Now.

R160 Their conditions weren't shitty till Jones came. They loved being a communal society and had plenty of food and rest. They were away from society and racism and had their loved ones living with them in cottages they built. It sounds pretty idyllic, but then he came and was a tyrant and a miser.

R158 he was ok looking, seemed to have some native american blood in him, but he himself, not just his crimes but his general demeanor, how he spoke, what he said, is so utterly revolting to me, I'd rather fuck Brendan Fraser in The Whale.

Was Jim bisexual or did he just use that to exert power over his followers?

R163 Jim was probably powersexual. He'd get off fucking anyone he could exert power over. Also he was arrested for "lewd" behavior in a men's restroom (something his inner circle tried, moderately succesfully, to keep quiet) in the mid 70's. I doubt he was just "recruiting".

Jim's health declined rapidly in Jonestown. There's speculation he might have had HIV.

Imagine this happening with MAGATs somewhere in Mexico. They’ll champion it’s some Eden then in 67 days, it’ll be over.

R166 going by what happened in Jonestown, thats more likely to happen to progresives...not MAGATS

I have to agree with R167, progressives would be more likely to fall for People's Temple type cult.

R164 Yeah I think that was why they expedited the move to Guyana, people were going to find out about it, he was going to have to go to trial soon. That and the John Stoen thing were big parts of why they all had to die.

R165 Who speculated that? I'm not being snarky, I've never heard that and I've read just about everything on Jonestown, there must be something I missed. Where did you hear that? I wouldn't be surprised, he was a whore, darlin.

....

Hmm R171. Interesting. I haven't looked at Moore's site in a long time. Thanks. I'm sure had had fucking syphillis or something too.

According to a People's Temple defector he had genital warts from fucking a homeless woman. It might have been Debbie Layton who said that.

Debbies pisses me off too. She led her whole fucking family to that place and then took off. Her mom died in horrible pain of cancer in Guyana after Jones took her (and everyone's) pain meds. Her idiot brother is the airstrip shooter and did time for it. And she just walks off into the sunset and lives back in San Fran where she continued to be an asshole, telling some guy she worked with, "look at that guy, look at his manicure, he must be a homosexual" and then she takes the guy's lunch because why shouldn't she? he's a moneyed homo with a manicure, he can afford it. She's lucky she was pretty, her personality was shit.

She also helped get Larry released.

All of Jim's women seemed like cunts.

Of course she did R175. Did she offer him to come live with her? She also bitches on and on about some fucking statue that was super valuable that her mom had and gave to Jones back then. She wants it back. Fuck you, I hope whoever has it is still alive and wipes their ball sweat on it everyday. She just sucks. I think she also got her young, black friend to join PT as well, and to move to Guyana. Later she sees the friend drugged and zombielike in the jungle after Jim used and abused her. So she's got that death on her head too. I want to say her name was Shonda.

R176 Oh for sure. Anyone who wields that type of power and practices the soft bigotry of low expectations over the marginalized people in their group is a fucking cunt.

Shanda James. She was a black teenager who refused Jim's sexual advances. He had her tied to a bed and pumped full of Thorazine.

Yes R178! Thank you! I thought he maybe raped her, of course he did. Didn't it start on a bus from one of his phony healings? And I swear Debbie is the one who brought her in. Debbie is not unlike any of those Nexium creeps like that actress, who brings sacrifices in. Poor Shanda. I hope she at least was out of it during the massacre. I think there's at least some pics of her somewhere so that she can be remembered. I haven't read "Seductive Poison" in so long, it pissed me off. I should read it again though. She REALLY hated one of Jim's other inner circle chicks, the blonde who was in charge of money and had Debbie go open a bunch of offshore accounts. I figure it's because the woman knew that Debbie was more than just an innocent bystander.

There's a photo of Shanda at the link. It says she was 19 but she looks younger.

Jones died a bloated disgusting mess. I doubt he died of Aidsm

I think the blonde you referred to is Teri Buford. She defected from Jonestown before the massacre.

Of course he didn't die from AIDS. He was shot. But we know it was circulating in San Francisco in the mid-70s so it's not impossible that he could have had it.

Does it go into the CIA / MK Ultra connections?

Oh wow R180, she looks about 13, that's so heartbreaking.

YesR182! It is her, I was thinking Theresa or something, but Theresa is that dummy that went on to join another cult and still speaks reverently about PT. Thank you! Damn, we should probably get married and just talk about Jonestown all the time. Teri does seem like a bitch but as stated above, they pretty much all were. I really take exception to the assholes who were with him on his faith healing trips, they knew it was all bullshit yet they continued for whatever reason and probably didn't even go to Guyana. Also the people who were there at his fake assassination attempts where he had probably Tim Carter, shoot into his house to show how persecuted he was. Anyone who knew about the fake healings but thought that was real is an idiot.

Oh her name just came to me, Edith Roller, I think. The older lady with the communist leanings who believed in the social Utopia Jones was trying to create and sold her shit to come to join the church. I forget if she died in Guyana or not, but certainly she learned that communism doesn't fucking work and their benevolent leader was a psycho. She's the archetype of the person who would go along with shit like this. Older, educated, white woman who suffers from white guilt but somehow tamps that down to follow a white leader who teaches about how equal marginalized groups are all while living a better life from than his minions and justifying it with knowing what is best for them.

Edith Roller died in Jonestown. I think she's the woman on the death tape who says if they all die they'll be no one left to write about them. Jones says "I don't believe anyone would write about us." She kept a journal of her time in Jonestown which is archived at Rebecca Moore's website.

The footage from news shows of Grace Stoen talking about how Jim blackmailed the followers is particularly eyeroll inducing. Hearing a woman who's married to a fucking lawyer talk about how they all signed blank confessions to be utilized later is mind boggling. "And you better believe we did it!And you would have too!" No, stupid, I would not have, but then I also wouldn't have joined a fucking cult. I can't believe John Stoen is buried in the mass grave, as someone said upthread. I wonder what her excuse for this is. I remember that after she left him in the jungle, she went to Reno or something and just kind of hung out for awhile, and Tim went to Europe to take in classical music and eat heavy meals. They both suck. I remember really looking forward to reading Tim's book just because I love all the different books, but then I decided, fuck him, and I didn't buy it. I'm sure it's just him making excuses for his shitty choices and justifying it by saying he joined the church to further social causes, despite the fact that he lived in a nice condo and had a BMW while everyone else suffered in shitty apartments and group homes.

Edith had worked for the CIA.

I don't think Grace ever really cared about John. She only had him because she thought being the mother of Jim Jones's child would make her part of the inner circle. When Jim refused to leave his wife Grace ran off and left John behind. Allegedly Tim was also one of Jim's spurned lovers and they only filed custody to get back at him. When Jim Jones was dead they had no more use for John.

R186 I don't know if you have Hulu but there's a cartoon show called "Bless the Harts" with Kristen Wiig and Maya Rudolph. It's pretty funny. I put it on while I was doing something mindless, changing my bedding or something. Suddenly there's a scene of the teen girl and her gay bestie ditching class and watching youtube vids and the boy says something like "Powers Boothe as Jim Jones was so hot!" and it has like a little shot of the video he's watching. I was shocked and delighted at that reference. Here's the trailer for the show, I think it's canceled now but it's cute and funny. Lots of cool refs on it, including a Reba "Fancy" storyline.

Grace went to Guyana with Leo Ryan but stayed in Georgetown.

Of course she did R191, what an asshole. I remember in the books she doesn't even sound particularly likable. They said that Jones wanted to keep Stoen happy and from leaving the PT so they had to let him have his condo, BMW, etc. or his shrewish, social climbing wife would make him go.

There was also the fact that Grace loved fucking Jim Jones. In one of the tapes he rambles on about how he fucked her up, down, and sideways.

Knowing now that Grace never claimed her son's body makes it especially infuriating that she's on this show and others. I don't think Tim talked about it on TV like she does. I know he wrote a book but at least he's not on the talk show circuit. If I were Grace, I would have changed my name long ago. Tim Carter is piece of shit to leave his kid to die in the jungle, but he's the father of the kid. I would think a mother would feel something more for her offspring, but I guess not.

I've always believed Jim was the father.

I didn't R195, but my lawyer friend who got me into the Jonestown survivor's group was convinced he was too. I know the kid has the olive skin, sorry, HAD the olive skin, but Grace does too. I'm sure Grace convinced JJ it was his kid, but only to keep her place in the inner circle. I guess he could have been though, Jim sure was willing to do everything possible to keep him in the jungle. I still can't fucking believe he's buried in a mass grave. Otherwise, they could have maybe done DNA analysis on his bones? I don't know, is that possible? Also, does Tim think the kid was his? It's hard to tell from his movements back then. I mean, Grace was pretty fucking blase' about the whole thing and she was John's mother, it's not hard to see his dad could act the same way.

Tim has always claimed he was John's father. As for what he believes privately who knows? He hasn't given an interview since the 80s.

R188 You know a lot about PT. Do you know who the woman is in the footage from the day of the shooting, she's white and wearing like polyester slacks maybe, and a head scarf. She's screaming at her husband, "You bring those kids back here!" or something to that effect. It's a really charged scenario and I think the man did give the kids back. I never knew who she was though. Maybe I can find the clip, but I feel like you already know what I mean. Oh she also wears glasses.

Here's a short interview with Tracy Parks. I think she was also on "I Survived".

That was Bonnie Simon. Her husband Al had been planning their escape for months. Al tried to leave with Leo Ryan's entourage and take the kids but Bonnie's screaming prevented it. They all died in the massacre.

If Jones were alive today he would have 12 million TikTok followers. 13 million if he put on a dress. The TikkyTockers love crazy.

Oh damn R199! I knew you would know, thank you! That's always haunted me. Wow, I knew she probably stayed. Too bad he and the kids did too. I remember I think from "Raven" that there was a group of rebellious teens who managed to escape, I think before they went to Guyana. He called them fake revolutionaries and bougie, basically. I think he called them Coca-Cola revolutionaries or something, and they sent him a postcard telling him to fuck off and saying they were actually Pepsi drinkers, or vice versa. As I recall, nothing ever happened to them, no retribution. I forget who they were, but the fact they escaped unscathed makes me think that he was full of shit as far as his vindictiveness went in getting back at defectors. I know people think that guy that was hit by a train or something was set up by Jones, but I think it was probably a suicide. Al Mills, maybe? Or Mertle?

The Mills family was killed in February 1980. Some people thought it was done by former Temple members.

I never thought Stephan was insincere or shown any favoritism in Jonestown. I deeply disliked Marceline though. I always would read what a kind, caring person she was, and Stephan would say so too, but obviously, she wasn't. I don't understand her motivation in going along with him to the bitter end. Was it because she liked the adulation of the followers? Was it the money? I know she and Stephan supposedly had many conversations about Jim's addiction and mental health, and Stephan mentioned his mom knowing all about Jim's other women. Was Jim always just after money and fame? The Indiana days when he was actually a preacher and they became the first white couple to adopt black children seemed to be sincere, but it was probably all just a part of his act. I wonder if Marceline was acting too. He really did charm the little old ladies, especially the black sisters who went to Jonestown and I think one died, and one slept through the massacre. I just wonder if it was always phony for him. Was Marceline on drugs too? How the fuck could she reconcile the conditions others in JT lived in, in contrast with her private cabin and probable own fridge and food like Jones had? I was always surprised that she actually died there too. I wonder if JIm was shot because he resisted the poison or if that was always the plan. He didn't strike me as being very brave so I wonder if he was drugged before he was shot.

You can hear on the tape that Jim is high as a kite. Larry Schacht came up with the idea of mixing cyanide with Flavor-Aid. He said that it would be quick and painless which it isn't. Maybe when Jim saw those people convulsing and foaming at the mouth he decided he preferred a bullet to the head.

Ah, of course R204. A pussy to the bitter end. I'm honestly surprised he and his whores didn't just leave after everyone was dead, they had plenty of money and no one would have been there to stop them.

Some people think Jim was planning to make a final getaway in the last plane when *somebody* sent him along to meet Jesus.

[quote] Otherwise, they could have maybe done DNA analysis on his bones? I don't know, is that possible?

They probably could have done it if he hadn't been buried in the mass grave. I recall DNA analysis has been done on remains of unidentified soldiers who were killed in wars.

On the topic of the Jonestown bodies. I remember when the story broke in 2014 when cremains were found of Jonestown bodies were found in an old funeral home in Delaware.

[quote] I still watch this movie all the time. Powers Boothe was a real piece of ass. Meg Foster, staple of the 70s, even Madge Sinclair and Levar Burton.

And we mustn't forget the talented, ethereal Brad Dourif as ex-meth addict Larry Schacht's fictional avatar "David Langtree" in "Guyana Tragedy." Known for such chilling performances as a deranged murderer "Criminal Minds," possessed murderer in "The Exorcist III" and as the perennial voice of psychopathic doll "Chucky," Brad Dourif has never been one to shy away from discomfiting roles.

In fact, one could argue that his breakout, Oscar-nominated turn as a naive, stuttering mentally-arrested patient in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" was among his most wholesome roles.

Here's a transcript of the last phone call between Marceline and her daughter Suzanne. Suzanne had left The People's Temple and Jim considered her an enemy. Marceline tries to convince her daughter to come to Jonestown and see what a beautiful place they've built. She's gaslighting and trying to manipulate Suzanne. Reading between the lines it sounds like Suzanne accused Jim of molesting her. There's also a link where you can listen to the phone call.

Marceline intervened to stop the Simons from leaving. At 15:22 Marceline comes down the walkway looking pissed. Then you hear her page Bonnie Simon to come to the radio room. Cut to Marceline hovering as Bonnie screams at Al to bring her kids back.

Are people in mass graves put in separate body bags or whatever they bury them in? I would assume they have their own bags with a label on it. I bet they could do it but they don't care to.

R209 oh yeah, how could I forget Brad? Yeah, he's great. Randy Quaid is in it too, also playing a kook like he is in real life.

R210 and R211 What a twat! I knew it, I knew she wasn't some sweet woman. I can't even believe she stopped the Simons from leaving. I'm so glad you know who all the players are in that video, it's always upset me. Bonnie was so adamant and angry and I wonder if she regretted it later or if she was resigned to it. I know a lot of people were so tired of the constant "white night" bullshit where they would be kept up all night without the benefit of medicinal speed. I'm sure some of them really did believe the bullshit that they'd be arrested and their kids taken and killed, so they were glad to just finally rest.

[quote] The Temple gave them a home and a family.

Just like gangs do. So many people are not properly raised with security and love, hence the need for cults and gangs.

R211 So that's Marceline there? She's a little fucking chubby for a place where they're all being starved. I've seen this video many times and never even knew that. What an evil woman, I wonder if her kid has admitted that to himself yet.

The guy in the green striped shirt who walks ahead of Marceline is Tim Carter. I wonder where he was going?

R4 - and your Christian school didn't see the irony in that?

You can see Marceline's body on the cover of Time. She's the one in red pants.

Some people think it's Bonnie that Jim is talking to when he says "Mother,mother,mother...don't do this...lay down your life with your child."

There was another adopted child named Agnes who is rarely mentioned. She was kind of a mess, drifting in and out of PT. Unlike others she was always welcomed back. Agnes had several kids, one of whom was given up for adoption. The father was unknown and I wondered if it was Jim Jones.

Article on the unclaimed bodies.

Another article about the body recoveries.

I still cant believe what a fucking evil cunt Marceline was. So she essentially called her to the radio room to say, "Al's leaving and he's taking your kids, are you going to let him?" fucking twat.

R218 I was almost 6 when this happened, my parents had that Time magazine and I was so curious about it. My mom told me they were crazy people who drank poison or something to that effect. Thus began my lifelong obsession with Jonestown.

Marceline knew all of Jim's dirty secrets yet stood by him until the bitter end.

I'm glad she suffered the indignity of being chubby and dead in polyester on the cover of Time magazine. God, those pictures...they're so bloated and you can see at least one dead kid. And they're all black streaked. Ugh. I forgot how they killed all the animals too.

Marceline wasn't trying to save those kids. She knew what the plan was and she wanted to make sure they killed as many as possible.

There was a doc years ago, probably in 2008 or so since that would be an anniversary, where Stephan talked about how great his mom was. He said they had learned that JJ was an addict and were unsure how to proceed. He said how worried they were and that JJ had such a Christ complex, and "how do you tell Christ that he's got a drug problem?". Anyhow, he made it sound like she was such a sweet and helpless woman who was just swept up in all this. I never really bought that shit but I certainly didn't think she was a fucking cunning and vile bitch as we see in that video. I'm just floored by that. She really literally stopped a woman and children from leaving and guaranteed certain death for them. I hope she died in agony and lived in humiliation of her husband's cheating ways.

Even at his worst Jim Jones sounded more sober and reasonable than Trump.

Jim Jones had political clout in the 70s. Imagine if he had ran for President.

I still imagine a small cult of Trumpers going to live in Mexico and crazy shit going down.

R229 Yeah and he had an in with Jimmy Carter's sister, imagine if he had the president's ear too!

He did have lunch with Roslyn.

And Eazy E once had lunch with Pres George HW Bush. So random.

Was Jim well known before Jonestown? Would the average American have recognized him?

R234 Hmm...he probably was in Indiana when he had his church. In Cali he was pretty political but I don't think he was super well known. Once they started bad press about him he probably still wasn't heavily recognized but after the "gay" stuff he was arrested for, he seemed to think everyone would know him, which is why they went to Guyana. The average American though, wouldn't have known him.

Eazy E wasn't influencing elections in San Francisco.

Jones attracted people who were interested in racial equality movements.

Jones really was ahead of his time.

-Being the first white family in Indiana to adopt a black child.

-Welcoming openly gay members into the church.

-Putting women in positions of authority

But somewhere along the way he let that power go to his head.

Imagine how much good he could have done if he hadn't been evil.

R238 but only white women! For whatever reason, he never really did trust black or other minority women as much as white ones. But yeah, damn, if only he'd used it for good. Which begs the question, was it all bullshit? Did he adopt the black kid for publicity? His work in turning heroin addicts around is really phenomenal. Synanon used similar methods. People did stay clean, I think, for the most part, and that's pretty awesome.

If Jones wasn't evil, he could have been a liberal version of Billy Graham or Pat Robertson.

It sounds as if he surrounded himself with people who were just as bad as he was.

Several concerned guests at Mar-a-Lago say Donald Trump is starting to give off “Jim Jones vibes” lately.

....

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Fingers crossed!

This doc was very good, it happened before I was born by two years, so the footage and the multiple filmed trips was insane to see. Also don't remember ever hearing about the rum shop they hid out in.

The detail about the guy who took money to the 'Russian Embassy ' and him watching his kid poisoned then his wife- I suppose the fight/flight/freeze response is a reasonable explanation, the sequence is shady, although I'm not discounting that they were conditioned cult members who were holding onto sanity by a fine thread so the bizarre has to be a legitimate factor in participating or just leaving everyone to run (legitimately out of fear for being punished). I only wish a larger group stole off with the kids into the jungle when the congressman was coming (they had the entire day) on that ticking time bomb of a trip.

Yeah R247, that asshole is Tim Carter, and we have many opinions on him. Mainly though, where's the fucking money, Tim? He's also the one who let Jones know that they were coming. He infiltrated a group called the Concerned Relatives, pretending he had family in Jonestown. He then found out their general plans and let Jim know.

Jim Cobb has died. He was one of the original Temple defectors in 1973 and a survivor of the Port Kaituma shooting.

Meanwhile fellow survivor Thom Bogue is a MAGAT.

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When the Carters and Prokes made their way to Port Kaituma, two security guards stopped them and confiscated their possessions. And on Monday, Nov. 20, the three were brought back to Jonestown by Police Commissioner Skip Roberts to identify bodies and retrieve the suitcases.

They, like other many survivors - for instance, Odell Rhodes and Stanley Clayton - were then moved to Georgetown and kept in protective custody by the Guyanese Government for about a month after the deaths, likely in anticipation of the government's coroner's inquest that occurred in the following December.

Tim Stoen compares Trump and Jim Jones.

What’s really weird is how respected he was in SF and tight with White before going to Guyana.

Ironically Jones dedicated a suicide barrier on the Golden Gate Bridge.

Cultmasters. They all get too big for their britches.