Which religion has weirder beliefs?

I see them both as cult-like and a deviant askew version of true Christianity. This is from an agnostic former Greek Orthodox.

I voted for Mormons because of the weird underwear.

My Mormon uncle called me to ask if I was okay with him doing [a thing of some kind] that would unite my dead mom and dead dad forever. In a spirit of “You do whatever voodoo you want to do,” I told him he could go ahead and then he notified me that I was going to be locked in with them, too.

If this bullshit works I’m screwed for eternity and weirder than that I just can’t imagine.

Mormons, definitely. Even though JWs are weirder people in general.

I live in a remote area for my first job. It was the land of misfit toys—anyone who didn’t fit into society found a home there. There was a huge community of Jehovah Witnesses. I became friends with one I worked with. She was great! She eventually invited me to attend a service but only because I asked her about it.

There wasn’t anything freaking about it. It reminded me of my Sunday School classes when I was a kid. Nothing too extreme. In fact, they believe you can do anything as long as it’s in moderation. So drinking fine.

There were a lot of religious whackos in the community—a snake worshipping evangelical bunch who spoke in tongues was a stand out. Jehovah Witnesses were the most normal of the bunch.

I think they get a bum rap. I don’t understand the showing up at your door nonsense, though. In my experience, they’re no worse than any other conservative Christian group.

I can't comment on their beliefs since I'm not that acquainted, but the ones I've met have been kind souls, so I'm not eager to dismiss them. Some of my kindest coworkers were JWs who knew I was gay.

Both are really insular religions with niche beliefs that are strange to most mainline Christians. I have Mormons in my family and also grew up with/work with JWs. I think Mormon theology is weirder if I'm being honest. JW is more Scientology-adjacent though in terms of excommunication rules. That being said, I think JWs assimilate more into mainstream society (save the not celebrating holidays) in the sense that they indulge in vices like caffeine and alcohol, whereas Mormons do not. In my experience, members of both religions have always been really kind. Mormons are far more political, whereas JWs do not believe in politics/voting, so they are completely disengaged in that sense.

Jehovah Witness can't eat birthday cake. I'm not joining a non birthday cake cult.

I still chuckle when I remember my mother giving Jehovah Witness holy hell for ringing our doorbell and trying to talk religion to her. My mother and my grandmother could both talk circles around anybody when it came to the bible and theology.

Jehovah Witness are the ones who have Facebook groups from those who’ve escaped them. Their families are required to shun them per the religion. They’re also taught from childhood not to go to police if mommy and daddy touch them. I’d say they’re worse.

That they claim to be part of the Protestant tradition has always seemed odd to me. I think it's just trying to take whatever shreds of Protestant social privilege they could. It reminds me that Protestantism seems to be all about Sunday respectability while not believing in much of anything or else believing way too much in utter nonsense

[quote] In a spirit of “You do whatever voodoo you want to do,” I told him he could go ahead and then he notified me that I was going to be locked in with them, too.

Do do

That voodoo

That you do

So well.

Both have weird beliefs. I would say Mormons are a lot more dangerous and and financially and politically savvy.

You might have included some of the mainstream religions. Christianity is especially weird.

[quote] It reminds me that Protestantism seems to be all about Sunday respectability while not believing in much of anything or else believing way too much in utter nonsense

I'm sorry I wasn't good enough for you.

Your clearly vast knowledge of doctrine and of history is just too much for me.

Luther was a an authoritarian gasbag. Just another pope-type. He's also only the founder of one stream of Protestantism. Anglicanism is probably the most petty in its origin--a King who wanted a divorce and didn't want anyone else to have power or money.

I went to Catholic school but am not Catholic. My friend (Catholic -- lapsed, I guess) reminded me that Catholics actually believe, while taking communion, that they are eating the "body of Christ." I.e., when the priest consecrates (?) those little wafers, he is actually turning the wafers into the body of Christ.

transubstantiation

Both my parents were catholic but well educated in theology. Jesuits. They'd invite the JWs into the house for tea and cookies. In a few cases the discussion lasted hours and the JWs ended up as dinner guests. And they had no trouble drinking. "everything in moderation" Except blood

I went to Catholic school too (raised Catholic, but stopped being one in high school) and we were actually taught to not chew the host, just swallow it whole, otherwise we might get a mouthful of blood like some poor kid they told us about.

I had a Mormon friend in college. He was very smart -- studying archeology and art history, and now he has a PhD in the latter.

The whole "Jesus established cities in North America" (or whatever they believe about that) just seems so unbelievable. Where is the archeological evidence of these civilizations? (Even if you don't believe the Bible itself, there is archeological and historical evidence for many of the events depicted.) Anyway, he is still a practicing Mormon. I would never ask him outright, but some part of me wonders if deep down, he really believes this.

Is your PhD friend hot?

Not quite r22.

All religions have weird beliefs in varying degrees.

I love how other Christians don't think their beliefs are equally ridiculous.

A Mormon once told me I will never enter the Celestial Kingdom but thanks to the Mormon tradition of posthumous conversions, I will be admitted to the Telestial Kingdom. Can somebody explain the difference, please?

I have a whole garage sale slew of American Heritage magazines - the hardcover monthly editions from the 50s - 70s. I open them at random when I’m bored. During the pandemic I found a fascinating article written in the 60s about how Joseph Smith’s “revelations” about the ancient civilizations in America were essentially plagiarized wholesale from popular novels of the 1820s - what we would now consider Science Fiction.

The article was pretty scholarly and juxtaposed almost identical paragraphs from The Book of Mormon and the novels he cribbed from. So the foundations of Mormonism are even closer to Scientology then you would think. I’ll try and find that article again and post a proper reference.

I know Mormons are nuts, and powerful. Which seems to meld right in with modern America.

I really have loved every Mormon I’ve ever met. They’re so kind and sweet. The jehovahs witnesses I’ve known seemed sinister though and their religion seems cult like

Both groups are kinda old news and pretty well integrated into society IMO. One of my favorite reaction channels is a group of 2 hot AF LDS brothers with dark features and their 3 blonder cousins. They say "frick", "oh my gosh" and pound cold drinks like there's no tomorrow. They also love reacting to anime with demons and devils, and occasionally post jokes on IG about "BBL Drizzy"; so I think the younger Mormons are integrating with society pretty well. My JW relatives are also pretty normal, aside from the holiday stuff - one is even kind of an old school deadbeat father.

“…and The Mound-builders Vanished From The Earth” — What became of the prehistoric race that built the elaborate ceremonial mounds found in the Ohio and Mississippi valleys? Nineteenth-century America had a romantic but self-serving answer. - Robert Silverberg June 1969 - Volume 20 Issue 4

“…Novelists, too, heeded the appeal of the mounds, and for a while the genre of Mound Builder fiction was an active subbranch of American popular literature. A typical specimen is Cornelius Matthews’ Behemoth: A Legend of the Mound-Builders (1839), which described the efforts of the Mound Builders to cope with a mammoth of supernatural size and strength that rampaged through their cities until slain by a hero named Bokulla.

Such fictions were avidly consumed by a New York farm boy named Joseph Smith, who was to found a major religion with tenets based on the Mound Builder tales. (See “The Farm Boy and the Angel” in the October, 1962, AMERICAN HERITAGE .) Born in 1805, Smith as a boy was given to experiencing religious visions, and also to speculating on the origin of the mounds. His mother later recalled:

“He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.”

In 1823, Smith declared, an angel named Moroni came to him at night and showed him a book written on golden plates, which he could find buried in a hillside near Palmyra, New York. Four years later he began, with divine aid, to translate the plates, and by 1830 he produced the 588-page Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon, which inspired a religious movement that endured vicious persecution, the martyrdom of its leaders, and the official opposition of the United States government, reveals that Joseph Smith had carefully studied the Mound Builder legends. Owing much in style to the King James Bible, and deriving many of its themes from the Old Testament, it tells how, about 600 B.C. , a party of Israelites escapes from Jerusalem just prior to its destruction by Nebuchadnezzar. Through God’s guidance they cross the ocean to America, where they prosper and multiply, building mighty cities and great mounds and surrounding them with huge fortifications. But they split into two factions, the Nephites and the Lamanites. The Nephites till the land and become rich, but the Lamanites are ungodly, and sink into savagery. To punish them, God turns their skins red. They are, in fact, the ancestors of the American Indians. The Nephites, too, grow corrupt, backsliding into idolatry, and God, angered by their sins, sends the Lamanites to destroy them. In a climactic battle in A.D. 401 the last of the Nephites are engulfed by the red-skinned barbarians; one priest survives to compile the record on golden plates, which he buries and which remain hidden until discovered and translated by Smith. By some two million Americans today The Book of Mormon is regarded in the same light as the Gospels or the Five Books of Moses. To their critics, however, Mormon beliefs are merely amusing fantasies, and the sacred Book of Mormon itself is just another literary expression of the Mound Builder mythology.…

[quote]OP: Which religion has weirder beliefs? Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses?

They're both sects of one religion, Christianity. It's all weird.

R25 for the win.

Trans "Rights" Activists.

So where are these gold plates today?

Don't forget about the Presbyterians and their "elect" nonsense.

Have you read the koran?! Oh lordy, what a hoot!

What does the Datalounge think of - Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

About two miles from where I grew up there’s a church ⛪️ of them. We would often drive by it.

Both cults love bomb you until they get you into their clutches and start controlling every aspect of your life. Just like the Scientologists.

Both have awful family destroying "shunning" practices and protect pedos. I could go on but I vote JWs are worse because they aggressively discourage going to college leaving their cult members unable to earn a decent living.

Mormons.

Jehovah Witnesses are forbidden to get blood transfusions. People die all the time because of this. Mormons have nothing when it comes to the dangers of JW.

I forgot about the egregious prohibiting of blood transfusions, far worse than no college. So many senseless deaths particularly of children.

I should have included Christian Scientists. I know much less about them than the other two.

Christian Science is literally dying out. Their membership is ancient and theoretically shun modern medicine. They have lots of money, though, because they're selling off their often very splendid churches.

At least the JW religion is only based on a (profound) misreading of John of Patmos' writings. The Mormon religion is made up out of whole cloth and the only reason that nonsense took off and is stil thriving today is American exceptionalism. In other words, American Christians being high on their own farts.

[quote]Christian Science is literally dying out.

They all are. The Mormon wards are closing and merging left and right as well, but they hide the stats well. Or at least they try to.

Used to be able to find Christian Scientist reading rooms in a lot of cities. I ducked into one once to get out of a torrential downpour and it was very peaceful, sitting there reading the paper. No hassle. Much nicer than the library. It closed years ago though.

Mormons are great to work with. The religion is crazy, but the people are nice.

What field are you in, R46?

[quote] What does the Datalounge think of - Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

LDS = Mormon, which is being discussed in this thread.

I have two friends who grew up in these cults, one Mormon and one JW.

The difference between the two is slight. Each kick you out when you don’t do what they say. The difference is that the JH shun you and you are forever dead to them, with even your mother supposed to act like they don’t know you in public, while the Mormons kick you out and then continually badger you to come back into the fold.

Both, being groups which shun their own children for noncompliance, are anathema to me.

R34 = Nadine Menendez!

I worked with a JW who wouldn't eat the Reese's cups in the candy dish on the receptionist's desk during the holidays because they were wrapped in red and green Christmas colors.

Mormons seem very similar to Scientologists, ie fucking nuts.

Shunning hs been common for a long time. The Amish shun and i would imagine that the more conservative Mennonite and Brethern sects shun, too. The Quakers used to do this.

R11, JWs are products of the Protestant Reformation. They're the spiritual descendants of the more radical reformers of the 16th and 17th centuries. The Amish and the Mennonites are as well. The JWs, unlike them, do not shun society entirely.

My Mom once had a cleaning lady who was a JW. She was a very nice woman, who brought pamphlets about grieving after my Dad died. I had a great aunt who claimed we should bless ourselves, if JWs. She claimed they would depart immediately. So, once I was about 12 and I answered the doorbell. Sure enough, it was JWs who wished to talk about religion. So, I blessed myself. They didn't scamper away. They just looked at me oddly, as I shut the door.

What bothers me about Mormonism is the belief in baptizing the dead into the LDS church. That's why they maintain so many family records. What right do they have of baptizing the dead who professed different religions or no religion at all?

Don't care, but the Mormons usually have the better looking guys that try to convert you. Smart to send out young men who practice clean living.

I will say that while JWs can seem nice that opinion woll change if you've ever had to interact with them in areas that challenge their beliefs. (e.g. Halloween event planning). They are much worse than Mormons in that regard.

JWs seem to be less affluent demographically. Compare their dinky utilitarian Kingdom Halls with the elaborate tabernacles of the upscale Mormons. Mormons love money.

Mormons apparently love money and twinks. Hmmm

ALL religion is made up of whole cloth. Every single one of them. MEN made them up - to control women and molest children, mostly.

In full disclosure, I cannot comment about the JWs as my experience has been so very limited, amounting to scaring them away by opening the door without clothes on when they rung on random Saturday mornings. I have come to know two couples whose lives revolve around their church; they're lovely people who know of my hatred for organized religion and avoid talking about their faith and practices.

However, my experience with the Mormons is significantly different. The Mormons have hurt me and my family spiritually, emotionally, financially and professionally. They are pure evil. I could go on for thousands of words about it, but frankly it's too painful to discuss, certainly too much for writing. I'm coming to understand the conservative movement with each passing day, guided by the immortal words of Stuart Stevens: [italic]It was all a lie[italic] which pretty much sums up the Mormon faith. Joseph Smith was a conman huckster who saw early in life that it was easy to manipulate people with religion. After all, if you can get a man to believe in a book of fairytales conjured by sheep herders, you can get him to believe in [italic]anything.[/italic]

The best example is their well known prohibition on alcohol, tobacco and caffeine, the so-called "Word of Wisdom". Yes, it's just pure coincidence that the Word of Wisdom was announced as the Mormons settled in the Salt Lake Valley, were starving to death, and the only goods that merchants were willing to drag across the country was the high margin vices... so make consuming them against the religion. They are nothing if not pragmatic.

And yes, the Mormons love money. So much so that they own more real estate in the US than anybody save for the Federal government. They have so much money that they really don't know how much, but it's far, far more than their stated worth, and they're paranoid and suspicious, so they hide their money. And they are hypocrites as well, owning major stakes (if not outright) in the companies that produce alcohol, tobacco and caffeine-based products because a buck is a buck and god forgives any sin if done in service to him.

Sorry for the italic error.

My father grew up in a cult and man they were fucked up. He had legitimate PTSD over the experience and would never talk about anything that had to do with it. Lots of child abuse went along with it.

Mormons are scary in that they operate like a financially savvy business without regard to their own tenets. For example, gambling and the building of Las Vegas.

That Jehovah Witnesses thing about blood is just so weird.

I prefer them both to Islam

R60, they might be number two but they are just barely there if they are. I’m sure all of these people, the LDS church included, own quite a lot through shell companies.

This ranking has been cited by Forbes, so I assume it’s accurate.

Mormon doctrine does seem weirder overall, and of course inventing your own "third book" will tend to do that.

I remember watching a youtube series about early mormons, and damn those bitches were crazier than I would have thought. There were certainly a lot more drunken knife fights in taverns than i would have expected.

That is interesting about the "Word of Wisdom" r60, cause the early Mormons certainly knew where to find the booze and the brawling and the stealing, and well a lot. It was almost, just picture Mitt Romney, then picture the opposite and you get the Early Mormons.

Mormons, of course, object to my opinion on the origins of the WoW, and claim divine inspiration (as they do with all of their controversial (?) rulings and proclamations), but my family goes way, way back with the Mormons (and half the fam is still in the cult), which is where I gleaned this tidbit. The entertaining aspect is that you learn more about the Mormons every day; I've even learned things on this thread!

Someone mentioned The Brethren. I haven't thought of them in years. We had neighbours who were part of that cult - once they left they'd be the first to describe it that way. Despite what expert Susan Palmer says.p

How to decorate your house like a Mormon.

Unliker46, I had a bad experience with a Mormon co-worker when I worked in retail.

The few Mormons I've known socially were all stingy. I once had lunch at a chain restaurant with a Mormon colleague. She had some kind of gift certificate that brought the price of her meal from $25 to $5.

She left 50 cents as her tip.

^^^ r46

I should add I also worked with a family of Jehovah's Witnesses when I was in high school. They were uneducated, but generally decent people.

Similar to Mormons, I find 7th day Adventists interesting because they take their diet seriously. I knew a girl who was one and even her kids are vegetarian.

Mormons ftw!

Islam.

This doesn’t translate as “I submit” for nothing.

A historian friend of mine studies religion in the Middle Ages r76.

He points out that a big difference between Christian and Islamic theology is that the former is byzantine and difficult to understand (eg, the Trinity, and a deity (Christ) who is both fully human and fully divine), while the latter is simple and easy to digest (There is no god but God, and Muhammad is his messenger.)

With that said, both Mormon and Jehovah Witness theology deviates significantly from traditional Christianity.

The problem I have with Islam is that they claim Muhammad is God's messenger, but what about all the prior prophets who many Judeo & Christians consider to be his messenger?

It's all tribal and tradition and superstition.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are descended from the Adventists, R74, or rather, both are descended from the Millerites.

I learn something new every day on DL. Thanks r79!

[quote]I love how other Christians don't think their beliefs are equally ridiculous.

I don't know, I think Quakerism seems pretty cool. I like that their whole thing is just "being quiet with God" and not telling each other or anyone else what their own particular experience with God SHOULD be. I respect their dedication to pacifism and non-judgement. I'm a Jew but I've sat in on a couple of Quaker meetings in my life and found them to be a very peaceful, meditative experience.

If Jehovah's Witnesses believe only 144,000 people will be saved, why do they so aggressively evangelize?

Good point r82. If anything, they should be luring each other into sin, just to increase their own odds. There's already over 8 million. So odds are looking pretty bleak already.

It could be a fun kind of religion, avoiding sin yourself but actively encouraging it in others.

r83 what else is interesting about JWs, if I understand correctly, is that they celebrate the Lord's Supper (maybe they call it the memorial meal?) once a year, and only those among the 144,000 thousand can partake. (According to Wiki, "In 2023, approximately 20.5 million people attended, and about 22,300 members partook.")

So they don't consider themselves guaranteed of salvation (unlike, say, the Southern Baptists.)

19th Century America must have been such a weird place.

Okay, I guess in fairness, it's still rather odd.

At least Jehovah's Witnesses don't participate in politics, which is more than can be said for most evangelical Americans.

Mormons - there's no comparison. However JW's are also cultish and can be extremely abusive.

But Mormons win on all the crazy shit. It's scary how many people believe in it.

It's a religion founded by a conman, r87. With receipts.

Serena is now "officially" a JW:

Quakers seem to be the most peaceful and non-judgmental. They don't really have preachers and seem welcoming to all.

I used to live in a neighborhood that had a lot of Hispanics that were newly arrived and the JW missionaries hit them up hard every Sunday. They spoke Spanish and would even stop and ask us if any neighbors were Hispanic. Unfortunately, a lot of the newbies fell for it and joined.

I watch a lot of HGTV and I can spot a Mormon family immediately. If it's a young, attractive blonde couple with multiple blonde kiddies stair stacked in age they are Mormon. Surprisingly, some actually have pretty good taste. I was surprised at one designer's renovation of an old building into their house. She was very talented.

R44, Mormons are not recognized as Christians by any branch of traditional Christianity, and for one major reason:

They believe that Mormon men become gods.

This belief today may be downplayed, obfuscated, equivocated, but it's right there in the writings of Joseph Smith.

Mormons also believe they'll inherit their own planets.

I was shocked the first time I learned that, r93.

Evangelicals hate the Mormons because they're successful at the Evangelicals' game.

I feel like I've seen FAR more Jehovah's Witnesses handing out literature in public in recent years. Did they ever used to do that?

There are several ex-Mormon YouTubers who I watch occasionally. Cults To Consciousness, Mormon Stories, Jordan and McKay are a few of them. The ones who leave the church tend to be pretty cool people, from what I have seen.

I've often felt that Mormonism is the most American of all religions.

HAVE you, R99? Might that be because IT IS?!

Southern Baptists!

Americans are fuckin’ nutz.

True.

But you have to admit, of all the weird beliefs out there, having your own planet is one of the cooler ones.

r104 = Marshall Applewhite

What's the deal with Seventh Day Adventists?

R104 They changed it from Uranus

We should def go back to using the terminology “Uranian Love”. Those early gay pioneers were onto something. It would’ve been cool if one/some of the early philosophical societies has survived, but we can’t have nice things.

I don't think they're any weirder than regular Christianity

The Mormon underwear edict is quite bizarre.

Only Mormonism has produced a line of fetishistic pornography for homosexuals.

What have you got to offer us, Jehovah’s Witnesses?

Honorable mention goes to Islam

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one in the same.

Mormons believe that God and Adam are one in the same. (Or something like that.)

Mutilating Jews and Muslims.

R82 - That is incorrect, the belief that 'only' 144,000 will be 'saved'. The 144,000 number is the number that 'go to heaven' (whatever that means) when they die. They believe that you can't wheedle your way into being one of those, no matter what you say or do. So you happen to be one, or you're not. They also believe (unofficially, you won't really read this in any of their material, certainly not the new stuff) that the number of tickets given out probably has hit the max a while ago, if not quite a long time ago.

So, the evangelizing and being one (or not being one) of the 144,000 at the end of the day has really little to do with each other. They do the evangelizing simply because it's always been done (sort of like 'I always put my left shoe on before I put my right shoe on').

r115 I think they believe that only baptized Jehovah's Witnesses will be able to "enjoy life forever on paradise Earth." Everyone else is annihilated at death.

r27 very interesting. Thank you!

R115 Damn, I'm always the bridesmaid.

R116 - Nope. Common misperception. I can see where someone who has talked to them might get that idea for the way it's framed, but no. There's no shortage of idiots in that religion who even think that.

To be honest, that might have been a thing at one time, but hasn't been for at least 40, maybe 50 years.

That comes from those still alive at the thing called "Armageddon" will get the axe. But the probability is that civilization will have decayed to such a point that there would only be an extremely tiny population (and I mean like a couple dozen) left alive on the planet. To quote a very funny Dr Who line: "World War Seven was probably the worst".

The folks that run that religion don't like the general population to know that's what they think (that very very few people will be alive at that point), so they don't publicly talk about it that way.

[quote]R106: What's the deal with Seventh Day Adventists?

What do you want to know?

They're descended from the Millerites, a religious movement from the early 19th century focused upon the soon return of Jesus Christ (hence, 'Adventist'). Common to the descendants of the Millerites is the belief that, while the exact time of Christ's return is not known, it can nonetheless be approximately foretold through close studies of the scriptures. Date setting is common.

Like the Jews, they observe the Sabbath on the Seventh Day, from sunset Friday night to sunset Saturday night. This observance is very central to their identity, since they believe that it is 𝑡ℎ𝑒 defining feature which sets them apart as the true Remnant of the people of God. This difference is one of several which cause friction between themselves and surrounding society, which has led to a certain amount of cultish segregation.

Some peculiarities:

▪ They lean towards vegetarianism, with some variations in the intensity of the diet between conservative and more relaxed factions.

▪ They have (had) a prophet, a woman named Ellen G. White (1827-1915), whose writings they hold to be inspired. Her books ('Patriarchs and Prophets,' 'Desire of Ages,' 'The Great Controversy,' etc) constitute a collection of supplements to the bible, somewhat analogous to the LDS's 'Book of Mormon,' 'Doctrine and Covenants,' and 'The Pearl of Great Price.'

▪ Openness to the idea of further inspiration, what they call 'the Spirit of Prophecy,' has made them susceptible to splinter sects and cult leaders. David Koresh was 'prophet' of an Adventist splinter sect called the Branch Davidians, who became engaged in an armed standoff with the FBI and the BATF in 1993.

Verlis W Johnson was the self-proclaimed prophet of another sect, 'Creation Calendar,' centered in Kermit, Texas. In the late 1980s, I had a passing acquaintance with one of its adherents, who spent some time sharing their literature and generally trying to recruit me into the sect. (I did not take the bait.)

I was once a Seventh Day Adventist, from the late 1980s to the mid 1990s. I am no longer a believer of any sort. I'm now an antitheist.

Shirley Mason ("Sybil") was a Seventh Day Adventist.

R38 R40 R41 - I would also like to know where this 'no college' thing comes from. The guy who runs the congregation by me IS a college professor (one of his kids is a client of mine), and there's no shortage of college graduates I know (it seems mostly MBAs) who go to that church and the other ones in the area. I could see rural flyover types peddling that, but not in fancy areas.

R57 - Tell that to the Forbes 400 guy who goes to one of the above places. The same church, smack in the middle of a really swish neighborhood, has no shortage of congregants in the 8 to 10 digit net-worth region.

[quote]R122: I would also like to know where this 'no college' thing comes from.

It does happen to be a trait of the JWs (though not uniquely - LDS, SDAs and Southern Baptists also have these tendencies - any 'higher education' which they advocate is typically carried out at their own proprietary colleges and institutions). But JWs are a bit more aggressive about it, and more controlling - so much so that they have even created their own bible version, the New World Translation, to support their own peculiar interpretations and views.

[quote]Jehovah’s Witnesses’ low levels of education compared to other religions has affected members’ job prospects and led to a high rate of underemployment, according to a report on National Public Radio (February 19). The report cites Pew Research figures showing that only 9 percent of Jehovah’s Witnesses get an undergraduate degree, well below the national average of 30.4 percent and the lowest of any faith group. The likely reason for this trend is that 𝐉𝐞𝐡𝐨𝐯𝐚𝐡’𝐬 𝐖𝐢𝐭𝐧𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐞𝐬 𝐭𝐞𝐚𝐜𝐡 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐬𝐞𝐜𝐮𝐥𝐚𝐫 𝐞𝐝𝐮𝐜𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 𝐢𝐬 𝐬𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐢𝐭𝐮𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐝𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐞𝐫𝐨𝐮𝐬, reports Luke Vander Ploeg. JW leaders discourage secular education with a video on the Watchtower organization website warning members of the ways higher education can erode religious beliefs and values. While the Jehovah’s Witnesses have traditionally accepted public schools, it seems home schooling is popular today, with some members saying their parents weren’t equipped for this task.

[quote]The guy who runs the congregation by me IS a college professor (one of his kids is a client of mine), and there's no shortage of college graduates I know (it seems mostly MBAs) who go to that church and the other ones in the area.

A 'college professor' of what college, exactly?

Also...

[quote]“The lack of higher education can translate into more tangible problems for Witnesses. 𝐏𝐞𝐰 𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐞𝐚𝐫𝐜𝐡 𝐬𝐡𝐨𝐰𝐬 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐉𝐞𝐡𝐨𝐯𝐚𝐡’𝐬 𝐖𝐢𝐭𝐧𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐞𝐬 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐚𝐦𝐨𝐧𝐠 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐥𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐬𝐭 𝐞𝐚𝐫𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐬 𝐨𝐟 𝐚𝐧𝐲 𝐫𝐞𝐥𝐢𝐠𝐢𝐨𝐮𝐬 𝐠𝐫𝐨𝐮𝐩,” Vander Ploeg reports.

Now, I'm aware that the link I've provided is from the Baylor Institute For Studies Of Religion, which is Baptist, and as such may comprise a religious 'hit piece' on the JWs (when I wrote above that "Southern Baptists also have these tendencies," it was universities like Baylor that I had in mind), But it's not the only source that says this about the JWs.

Having looked over your posting history, you seem a little 'invested.' Are you a JW, a former JW, or simply one who admires from the periphery of the sect? Or simply a Christian believer?

R123 - A big-10 state university. He personally is considered the world’s leading authority on his subject (One of the engineering disciplines). I'm sure you were hoping for a kitchen sink degree teaching reading at some tech school.

I’m considered an authority in my field, I’ve done hundreds of interviews from assorted Podunk weeklies to the Wall Street Journal to the Times (of London), and business collaborations with individuals that just short of everyone posting on this board would be lucky to be in front of for more than 10 seconds.

This JW video aimed at kids suggests that they do discourage higher education, especially for girls (of course). Owen was raised in JW and has a lot of interesting stuff about the religion on his channel.

[quote]R124: A big-10 state university. He personally is considered the world’s leading authority on his subject (One of the engineering disciplines). I'm sure you were hoping for a kitchen sink degree teaching reading at some tech school.

No, what I was expecting was a religious college. But it might as well be a tech school, since it's only an engineering degree, and that was likely narrowly pursued. Remember, JWs are Old Earth creationists, and cannot reconcile themselves to the fact of evolution. They will not avail themselves of a broad 'secular' education.

[quote]I’m considered an authority in my field, I’ve done hundreds of interviews from assorted Podunk weeklies to the Wall Street Journal to the Times (of London), and business collaborations with individuals that just short of everyone posting on this board would be lucky to be in front of for more than 10 seconds.

Well, gee... I've no idea what induced 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 unprompted - and unqualified - boast. I didn't question 𝑦𝑜𝑢𝑟 education at all.

Nor did you answer the question that I asked. You seem defensive about the JWs - even more so now - and perhaps about Christianity in general. Are you a Christian? Why so stung over criticism of the JWs?

r126 I'm not the poster you're replying to, but I cannot see a Jehovah's Witness teaching at a religious college, regardless of its denomination.

I should add, r126, that the only Jehovah's Witness I know of who teaches at the university level is at a community college.

[quote] Also... “The lack of higher education can translate into more tangible problems for Witnesses. 𝐏𝐞𝐰 𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐞𝐚𝐫𝐜𝐡 𝐬𝐡𝐨𝐰𝐬 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐉𝐞𝐡𝐨𝐯𝐚𝐡’𝐬 𝐖𝐢𝐭𝐧𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐞𝐬 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐚𝐦𝐨𝐧𝐠 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐥𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐬𝐭 𝐞𝐚𝐫𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐬 𝐨𝐟 𝐚𝐧𝐲 𝐫𝐞𝐥𝐢𝐠𝐢𝐨𝐮𝐬 𝐠𝐫𝐨𝐮𝐩,” Vander Ploeg reports.

This may actually be one difference. The Mormons seem VERY interested in money. They really do want a prosperous cult, and prosperous cult members. Sounds like the JWs are not so interested in that.

Exactly, r129. Look at how many MLMs originate in Utah.

Seth Andrews has a great interview with Owen Morgan about Jehovah's Witnesses. Plus you can just settle back and luxuriate in their soothing voices.

The "beliefs" of cults mean nothing,

It's the cultic structure, system of control, and dehumanizing schemes that tell the differences.

Holy Christ (no pun intended!) this Morgan guy needs to put on big-boy pants and fucking get over it. He needs a psychiatrist, not social media. He'll be 80 years old and still shrieking on YouTube about not going to his high school prom or whatever. There isn't a single thing he has to say that isn't being said in public endlessly already.

He's also significantly hurting his future professional job path, which I would guess most of the people in this thread (and him, too) do not realize.

good lord, bitch, you are really invested in this shit, aren't you r133.

It's okay, girl, you can be JW, just realize it's all nonsense, mmmkay.

R134- Just like you are, genius. Everybody who wrote on this thread has some kind of axe to grind, and it includes you too, right? What was your childhood trauma?

By the way, I was relating the comments a friend of mine (a noted and highly-published authority on adolescent behavior) made to me. And he's Catholic.

Do Mormons ever engage in door-to-door proselytizing like Jehovah's Witnesses? Never had a Mormon come to my door, but have had several JW's.

R136:

The Peeping stones win it for the Mormons

Mormons are just a way for ex-cons to practice socially acceptable corruption. Their leaders are not trained in the faith at all and the hierarchy is rigid the way 80 year old crooks can be

Mormons proselytize door to door. Once I was even in the process of moving out from my apartment and they would not leave me alone as my friends and I moved my furniture and stuff. It was just bizarre how persistent they were.

Mormon missionaries are younger and hotter.

The Mormon men make better gay porn.

R140, you should have asked them to help you move. They love doing that kind of thing.

You should have invited them in for a three way.

[quote]It's a religion founded by a conman

That applies to all religion.

That's somewhat of a provincial and ahistorical view, r145.

But it’s true. Because all religions are cons.

That doesn't mean all religions were founded by conmen, r147.

Conmen or narcissists, what’s the difference? All religions were just made up by somebody.

[quote]That's somewhat of a provincial and ahistorical view, [R145].

Provincial like religion?

I guess you could say conmen or the mentally ill. Take your pick.

[quote]R146: That's somewhat of a provincial and ahistorical view...

Ah, someone's stung. But you're telling us that you think those who don't accept the claims of your religion are unsophisticated, and that you believe you have history on your side. Tch, tch, tch.

[quote]R148: That doesn't mean all religions were founded by conmen...

Assuming you think others besides your own are genuine, which ones do you nominate, R146/R148?

Jesus is not the founder of Catholic Christianity (that 𝑖𝑠 the sect you're privileging here, isn't it?), nor Peter, nor Paul, nor any of the characters named in the literature as having been significant in its formation (Ignatius, Clement, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, etc). No, the founders are unnamed individuals, largely hidden from the direct gaze of history, who crafted the hagiographies of the others from the 3rd century onward. It did not really take on the contours of the form modern Catholics would recognize until after Eusebius in the 4th century. It is the very definition of ahistorical.

That the early characteristics of Roman Catholicism include becoming the gatekeepers of marriage (and eventually of who gets to be king), and involuntary asset collection ('sell all you have and give it to the Church, and if you withhold anything, God will kill you'), clearly mark it as a dangerous con.

No, actually I had in mind religions like Hinduism, r151. Or ancient Greek religion, or other ancient religions, whether or not they are still practiced.

They were founded rather organically.

I suspect you're right r152. In general I don't think people start out as complete charlatans, totally inventing shit they don't have any belief in themselves. That can happen, with Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbarb being perfect examples, but I suspect a lot of it is some combination of sincere hunt for answers and some self delusion and maybe then a little bit of bullshit to get the whole thing off the ground.

I'm curious about people like William Miller who started the whole Millerite movement that eventually would turn into the Seventh Day Adventists and apparently indirectly the Jehovah's Witnesses and others. I don't think he was just conning everyone. I suspect he really was trying to sincerely figure out when the end of the world was coming and then when he turned out to be wrong, there was a certain hemming and hawing, but even then, not exactly just flat out lying. There is of course a lot of lying once a church gets started and established, and almost always a lot of hypocritical bullshit gets mixed in when the leaders turn out to be the usual fuckups, but I'm not sure everybody starts out just trying to con everyone around them.

And even more true in ancient days, when very few people were sitting around saying there just CAN'T be spirits and gods and demons, cause that would violate the undiscovered laws of science. But hey, maybe I can get these idiots over there to give me shit if I totally make up gods and spirits. I don't really imagine it working that way.

I highly recommend Carl Sagan's [italic]The Demon-Haunted World[/italic] which talks about this brilliantly.

Hinduism is batshit crazy. Worship of an elephant God, a thousand armed god, etc.

[quote]R152: They were founded rather organically.

What do you mean when you say that, 'organically'?

That these cults didn't have organized priesthoods, which established systems for the conservation / accumulation of offerings from worshipers, or that they didn't seek preferential treatment or standing from the rulers in the places where they practiced? That they didn't practice chicanery in terms of the pronouncements of oracles, or in some cases, of the statues of the gods supposedly speaking? That they didn't exercise control over their monastic following, or the laity? That they did not endeavor to coerce kings with their claims?

Neither Hinduism nor Greek religions were innocent of these features.

I was surprised to learn that Jehovah's Witnesses are not teetotalers (unlike Mormons), especially since JWs are stricter in general.

R157, the amount of ink JWs have spilled justifying alcohol consumption seems the result of an internal sectarian dialogue, perhaps in oblique response to the Seventh Day Adventists, who have themselves spent an inordinate amount of effort justifying teetotaling. (See for example, Samuele Bacchiocchi, 𝑊𝑖𝑛𝑒 𝑖𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐵𝑖𝑏𝑙𝑒: 𝐴 𝐵𝑖𝑏𝑙𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑙 𝑆𝑡𝑢𝑑𝑦 𝑜𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑈𝑠𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝐴𝑙𝑐𝑜ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑖𝑐 𝐵𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑎𝑔𝑒𝑠.)

Thank you, r158!

I am endlessly fascinated by American religion.

This is nuts.

"seems the result of an internal sectarian dialogue"

Um, no. They've always been first-class boozehounds, except for down South, where the Baptists are screeching to everyone about what kind of a sin it is.