Would America have been better off had Romney defeated Obama in 2012?

Yes, by far. The fascist meltdown of the right would have merely been alarming rather than totally catastrophic. And the US would have got a handle on Putin before it was too late. And there would have likely been a Democratic win in 2020 with a newer, younger face besides Hillary or Joe.

Better if McCain won in 2008 and we never had the far right rise, plus Obama was a horrible president economically and he gave massive amounts of power to corporations. Him and his wife are completely bought and sold by lobbyists.

The MAGAts here really need to try harder.

The rise of the Birthers and the Tea Party occurred in 2008/9. And MAGA flowed from them.

ALL of this is the result of a great proportion of Americans not being able to handle having a black man (a reasonably traditional, staid, centrist, if not centre-right in some ways, non-American Descendant Of Slavery black man) as the most powerful person in the country.

[quote]The MAGAts here really need to try harder.

The McCain shout-out really is a knee-slapper given everything he helped unleash.

Looking back, I don't think America was ready for Obama.

Coulda shoulda woulda

He didn't

Be here now

[quote] The MAGAts here really need to try harder.

Really?!? I just posted the Simon Rosenberg interview in the "Trump Leads in 5 Key States ..." thread.

Try again, OP.

How's this, R9? I just contributed to the "Biden Victory Fund". Please do likewise.

Will Mitt Romney be campaigning with Biden in October? There's talk to that effect.

[quote]Better if McCain won in 2008 and we never had the far right rise

FUCK, to the NO. Mccain may he rot in hell unLEASHED the far right with fucking cunt Sarah Palin, now we have politics conflated with reality show hijinks every fucking night, NO fucking way

OP should research the John Birch Society and Alabama Governor George Wallace. The Republicans have had an undercurrent of these racist nutcases for decades and decades. Nixon and Lee Atwater knew that with their Southern Strategy. It's been building and building for decades--electing a simp like Romney would have done nothing. But I think OP knew that and is just a MAGAt trolling away and trying to rewrite history.

John McCain could have and SHOULD HAVE devoted himself to ending Trump's campaign after the "I like the ones who weren't captured" moment. Why he didn't devote himself 24 hours a day toward shaming EVERY VOTER AND ELECTED OFFICIAL by name for supporting Trump until Trump was forced out, or ruined on the public stage is his eternal shame!

If McCain had gone on every tv show, town hall, VFW, and anywhere with a mic to ruin Trump to the exclusion of everything else is his moral failing. McCain was a rotten, substance-free individual, but this error sealed it forever. He also should have vowed to vote for AND campaign with Hillary Clinton as well as switched to being an Independent in the Senate. He alone had the power to stop Trump, but he didn't. Shame!

Sen. McCain is great company down here.

😂 . This is all Obama's fault!

No the rise of the Tea Party was caused by Republicans putting their eggs in the basket of Pax Americana and Bush/Cheney globalism, and then the Iraq War spiraling out of control because George W Bush never could make it to the end of Lawrence of Arabia.

Obama’s election was a repudiation of the failure of Bush era globalism. People do not like globalism.

If there’s anyone to blame for this mess it is Al Gore for being such a putz he took on a running mate for the sole purpose of winning the state that his rival’s brother was the Governor of. Had he chosen Jean Shaheen from New Hampshire as his running mate she would have carried the state and its 4 electoral votes and become President without needing Florida.

As if MAGAts would be happy with the thought of their archenemy Romney preempting the rise of their Messiah.

Imagine 9/11 if Gore was president

R6: No we were ready but Barry rekindled a racial divide that had been steadily disappearing from American society. Fostering group identity politics for political advantage began under Obama's term.

[quote]Looking back, I don't think America was ready for Obama.

Really, the MAJORITY of Americans voted into office TWICE. Maybe it wasn't "America" who had the problem, maybe just the uneducated, white trash that had the problem.

[quote]Imagine 9/11 if Gore was president

9/11 would never have happened. Gore was a smart man and would have not have hired the likes of Condi Rice to give him cue cards on what the Presidential Daily Brief from the Pentagon. You know, like the one Condoleezza Rice ignored saying Bin Laden about to attack.

[quote]If there’s anyone to blame for this mess it is Al Gore for being such a putz

Lemme guess, you're...

Chris Hayes?

Jennifer Rubin?

Michael Moore?

Bernie Sanders?

Ralph Nader?

Frank Luntz?

Briahna Joy Grey?

Obviously, a moron!

Remember in 2015 everyone thought Marco Rubio would win the nomination. It has nothing to do with race. Nikki Haley beat Ron DeSantis for Christ’s sake.

It had to do with globalism and people realizing the existing systems were not preparing us for the cataclysm of late-stage capitalism. This is a GLOBAL phenomenon. The UK, France, India, Brazil. An iconoclast comes offering solutions, people say, why not, everything else is failing. That’s what we’re going to see for the rest of the century. These wild pivots in democracies as nations struggle to come to terms with a world on the precipice.

McCain also had TERRIBLE judgement. I give you Exhibit A.

No. The very thought...

It all started in 1994. when Newt Gingrich became Speaker of the House and his Family Values Conservatism were front and center with help from Rush Limbaugh. By '94, the Edwardian gentility of Bush and Baker were long in the rear view mirror.

Take New England, for instance. In 1995 7/12 Senators were Republicans- Judd Gregg and Bob Smith in New Hampshire, Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins in Maine, Jim Jeffords in Vermont, and John Chaffe in Rhode Island. We can even count Connecticut's Joe Lieberman in this group.

They believed in a balanced budget, strong military, and didn't give a damn with who you slept with.

In 1996, Colin Powell, a moderate Republican, almost ran for president. But he didn't because Gingrich and Co. told him he was not welcome and they wouldn't support him.

When Junior won the White House in 2000, he picked both moderates (Powell/Rice) and Conservatives (Cheney/Rumsfeld//Rove). The Conservatives kept Junior on their side until 2006, but by then it was too late. No Republican was going to win 2008. The Democrats could have ran almost anyone, but they chose a likeable, handsome, and articulate black man after Edwards campaign imploded on itself and the realization that Hillary is the ONLY Democrat who would lose to McCain.

McCain tried to balance the ticket with a Conservative and it was an utter disaster. His (right) instincts were to pick his friend Joe Lieberman, but his Conservative advisors talked him out of it. McCain regretted it.

By 2012, Obama was still thought of as a novice. He continued the Bush-era foreign policy and the economy was still suffering from the Great Financial Crisis. The Republicans picked the charismatic and gentle Mitt Romney, but the Tea Party would have none of it. The Tea Party believed the Deep State was spending too much and Romney was not "Christian" enough to be president.

Romney would have won in 2012 BUT FOR the Tea Party.

Sorry to write so much! I got carried away! I love studying this stuff.

By 2016, Susan Collins is the last of the list to be a Senator. The others retired, switched parties, or sadly passed away (RIP John Chafee, but his son Lincoln excellently continued his dad's legacy).

R27 = idiot.

Romney was an elite Northeasterner and the party had become increasingly working class, Southern and Western.

Susan Collins is not a moderate. Yes, compared to Trump and the wingnuts I suppose she is but come on. Dumb bitch got snookered by Kavanagh and the rest who lied about Roe being settled law.

The GOP has gone so far off the deep end they keep moving the goal posts to make people like her seem totally moderate.

r11, I seriously doubt that. I'd like to see the Bush family and Dick Cheney openly support Biden, not likely to happen.

No. Now that Romney is retired perhaps he can make a few Mormonboyz porn tapes. Elder Mitt?

The nail in the coffin for Traditional Republicans was in 2018. One by one they were fired, resigned in protest, or quietly disappeared to be replaced by a more malleable figure:

General John Kelly

General Jim Mattis

Rex Tillerson

General Joe Dunford

Gary Cohn

General HR McMaster

Jeff Sessions

Nikki Haley

Don McGahn

Kirstjen Nielson

In Congress alone:

Paul Ryan

John McCain

Orrin Hatch

Jeff Flake

Bob Corker

Trey Gowdy

Not all of them were moderates or Trump haters and their critics never thought that they did enough, but they did more to save the United States FROM Trump and passed legislation despite Trump.

Mitt Romney was one of the worst of the vulture capitalists, stealing people's pensions and sending them to the unemployment line. Don't forget that.

And corporations are people, my friend!

Despite his shortcomings, Romney would have made the most handsome president.

America was mostly ready for Obama. However the racist part of America, around 30% , refused to accept of black man as their president. 140 years after slavery was abolished they still have that racist mentality that their forefathers had. They were never able to accept that slavery was a wrongful part of US history and learn from it. Germany at least accepted their horrible past with the Nazi fascism and have admitted it as cautionary tale. Obama's legacy is that he was able to get ACA passed, but he was also beholden to big corporate interests. Trump probably never would have become president without the Obama backlash.

I’d still be alive.

The drift to fascism was baked into the Republican right since Goldwater. The more they won by appealing to the lowest common denominator, the more they appealed to the lowest common denominator.

The world would be in a much better place today had Hillary won in 2016. The pandemic would have been handled much better for one thing. I know she's polarizing, but Trump's win really was a disaster on so many levels.

But you bigots are forgetting that the 2016 backlash did not start against the Democrats. It happened against other Republicans. John Kasich, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush, Chris Christie. The backlash happened against the establishment because Republicans voters did not feel they represented their anger at the changing world.

It has nothing to do with Obama’s race. It had everything to do with Obama selling himself as a unique solution to disillusionment with government. In that sense, he serves exactly the same function as Trump; government pivoting between wildly different poles as the world struggles to keep its bearing among the devastation of late-stage capitalism. Obama was only elected because of the 2008 financial crisis. The 2008 financial crisis was capitalism hitting 88 miles per hour.

You bigots also conveniently forget what almost happened on the Democratic side.

[quote]Obama was only elected because of the 2008 financial crisis.

No. There were other reasons people were sick of the Republicans, the handling of Iraq being one of them. And McCain didn't give the Republican base or donors a lot of enthusiasm, even with Palin. Obama led on average in the polls from early summer 2008, well before the September financial crisis.

Obama was a good president. A little too center-right, but scandal-free.

I disagree that the country was mostly ready fore a black president. I think having a black president made a lot of this country lose their damn minds and Trump fed on that.

Too bad Biden didn't run after Obama - he was younger then obviously, but certainly less polarizing than Hillary (who I've always liked).

If people were merely sick of Republicans they would have elected Hillary. They wanted new solutions.

People want new solutions, that was what the Democrats could not offer in 2016 and what they are not offering now.

This was the future, whether you like it or not. Why do young people hate Joe Biden? Because he doesn’t make them feel optimistic about the future. It’s because he’s so old, right? NO! Because then THIS WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED!

Biden would have also lost in 2016.

THE BEST IS YET TO COME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

R43, the last thing Americans want is solutions. That would require congressional action, which is super boring. They would rather bitch about immigration than push to get the current bill passed that would actually change the situation.

Americans are caught between their desire for superhero leaders and the reality of their form of government, which is kryptonite to superheroes. Most Americans don’t understand that and just blame the President for whatever is ailing them.

Saying that you cannot get new solutions is merely an excuse to continue doing things the same way badly. Biden’s popularity is proof of that.

Trump fanned the flames of the Republicans growing sense of aggrievement and racism. Divide and conquer.

America would have been better off had Gore contested the stolen election.

All the posters going on about "Americans'" disappointment with the Democrats need to get a grip on the fact that the majority have been voting for the Democrats for House, Senate, and White House with very few exceptions for the last three decades and more. It's our weighted political system that makes everyone fret over "swing states" and fetishize rural districts.

Biden has done plenty that is new, but Americans are uninformed. The infrastructure bill, the CHIPS Act, overtime guarantees, student loan forgiveness, CBP One for immigration, elimination of noncompetes, reduction in child poverty, codification of gay marriage, regulations on air carriers.

What exactly did Trump accomplish? Lowering corporate taxes, separating children from their parents, killing a million Americans. And blowing a lot of hot air.

Outside of the ACA by Obama, Biden has accomplished more in just over 3 years than Obama had in 8 years.

I doubt Biden would have won had he ran back in 2016.

As polarizing as Hillary is, she was a much stronger candidate.. Her mistakes had nothing to do with what she brought to the table Presidentially but more of a poorly run campaign and a lousy VP choice..

Biden got in because people wanted Trump out. But as we see, left his own devices, he’s struggling very badly.

R52 The problem is that nobody knows that. And that’s really the fault of his team and himself. They’ve let the opposition complete control the narrative.

Palin certainly didn't help but even if she wasn't on the ticket I think McCain still would've lost. The Republicans didn't want McCain as their nominee. McCain was seen as a RINO and the Republicans were open about how a McCain presidency would've destroyed the Republican Party. Romney had the right political positions but was a robotic Mormon. Giuliani barely campaigned and when he did campaign it was all about 9/11.

No.

People keep citing Biden's low approval ratings, but Trump's are only a point or two higher, and his disapprovals reach the mid 50s.

[quote]People keep citing Biden's low approval ratings, but Trump's are only a point or two higher

And again, that's the problem.

"He's not Trump" is his message. And its completely obscured what R52 states.

Why keep the bar so fucking low?

No different. The same with Trump or Hillary. Your life would be no different.

Yeah, no difference at all to the 51% of the population who now have to get permission to make decisions about their bodies..

[quote]"He's not Trump" is his message.

It doesn't sound as if you've been listening to Biden's administration or his campaign. It includes both criticism of Trump and the huge amount of progress made in the last three years. But maybe you're one of the voters who is, as R51 says, "uninformed."

R53 I agree that the Biden Administration is very bad at promoting their accomplishments. Trump has basically zero accomplishments during his 4 years in office and yet he is propaganda maniac.

[quote] THE BEST IS YET TO COME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does Guilfoyle holler that right before Junior dribbles out a drop or two on her bolt-ons?

Probably does lines off of them.

R62 Yes

Adding to what r22 said, The Clinton Administration was extremely focused on Islamic terrorism because of the Khobar Towers bombing, the embassy bombings in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam and the USS Cole bombing. Bush wanted to put his own mark on the government and that's why he hired Condi, a career Russia expert. It's very possible that a President Gore would have continued focusing on Islamic terrorism and averted 9/11. I recommend The Looming Tower to anyone who wants to know more about the lead up to 9/11.

[quote]Biden would have also lost in 2016.

Bernie would have also lost in 2016.

Bernie did lose in 2016....and in 2020.

[quote]If people were merely sick of Republicans they would have elected Hillary. They wanted new solutions.

But the people DID want Hillary, she won the popular vote, that's what THE PEOPLE wanted, it's the electoral college that got in the way of what the people wanted. The electoral collage is an antiquated method of adding up the votes, but it's not actually what the people wanted.

Populism is a worldwide phenomenon. So it’s not clear anything could have prevented the rise of Trump. Romney type Republicanism is dead and the left has been losing support from the working class everywhere.

But I also thought the election of someone as charismatic but inexperienced as Obama opened the door for Trump.Little experience in government lead to none,

Obama was involved in community activism and community politics starting with his college years. He also studied constitutional law and even taught it. I wouldn't even put him on the same planet as Trump as regards political experience or lack thereof. Trump displays his ignorance of the US constitution each and every time he opens his mouth.

No, Mitt Romney was a fascist but would have been far more effective at it than Trump.

[quote]ALL of this is the result of a great proportion of Americans not being able to handle having a black man (a reasonably traditional, staid, centrist, if not centre-right in some ways, non-American Descendant Of Slavery black man) as the most powerful person in the country.

What does non-American mean R4? Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii in 1961. He is American.

[quote] The electoral collage

I like this typo.

[quote] No, Mitt Romney was a fascist but would have been far more effective at it than Trump.

This 'a pox on all your houses' thinking is part of the problem. Trump is an existential threat to our democratic republic in a way that Romney, who twice voted to convict Trump, becoming the first senator to vote to convict a president of his or her own party, never was. Treating the two alike - or even suggesting Romney was the greater threat - tunes out the voting public who must come to appreciate the unique danger Trump presents.

[quote] But the people DID want Hillary, she won the popular vote, that's what THE PEOPLE wanted, it's the electoral college that got in the way of what the people wanted.

The Electoral College is how we elect presidents, not through the popular vote. And every candidate for president runs with this understanding. It's like tennis, which is played in points. Four points win a game, six games win a set, and two or three sets win a match. Think of popular votes like tennis points. Just as we don't judge a winner of a tennis match by virtue of the total number of points, we don't judge a presidential election by then number of total points. Think, as well, as playoff & championship sporting series. We also don't name a winner on the basis of total number of points or runs. Each game - like each state in a presidential election - is a self-contained unit. So, although I voted for Hillary & deeply mourned her loss - to this day - it was a loss under our constitutional system.

Be that as it may, R74, R67's point about what "the people" wanted stands—certain elements of the Constitution just potentially get in the way of what "the people" want, especially now that the Republicans are committed to oligarchic, theocratic, minoritarian rule. A few thousand votes across a few states don't represent the people, as opposed to a majority in the millions.

Stealth Trumptard thread.

The best outcome would have been a Clinton/Obama ticket in 2008. She could have served two terms and then Obama. could have run in 2016. That was her best shot to win. Obama win showed discontent and hatred of elites. That really triumphed big time in 2016. Obama also was not an outstanding Senator and had little to show for his two years there. Again, a VP candidate.

She wouldn’t have won a second term in 2012. Obama was at the right place at the right time.

That’s true. Obama took his shot and won. However, a win by either Clinton or Romney could have meant no Trump Presidency. So there’s that.

[quote] Stealth Trumptard thread.

Or not so stealthy Never Trumper, pro-Romney, thread.

The Clinton and Obama elections were thrilling, even considering the disappointments of each and the backlash to each. It was no surprise that the majority of Americans in 1992 and 2008 were racist, homophobic, and against rights for women and poor people. It was incredible to see the coalition of people who were not.

There is no guarantee that the backlash to Obama and Clinton wouldn’t have expressed itself in even darker results for the country even if they hadn’t been elected.

America was not ready for Obama so much they voted for him twice. Maga started a long time ago with the Regan years.

Today's version of the Republican Party started with Clinton not Obama. America electing a black man twice just sent them into complete crazy town.

Obama may have been an accelerant, but the MAGAs are motivated by demographic changes (loss of white dominance), changes in gender roles (feminism and LGT rights) and economics (loss of manufacturing jobs).

They were inevitable.

[quote] No, Mitt Romney was a fascist but would have been far more effective at it than Trump.

Sounds like the mindset of a Jill Stein voter.

The problem with humanity is collective amnesia. The religious right has been slowly but surely taking over the US for decades. Trump is not the beginning, he's the end result.

Part deux.

Not true. Romney is also an existential threat to democracy. Remember what the Christian Right really is. It's the military bribing dirt-poor, illiterate pastors to be pro-militarism and pro-rich. THat's all it is. It has no "spiritual" component at all.

And the reason is the collapse of the Republican grass roots due to watergate.

[quote] Not true. Romney is also an existential threat to democracy.

Defining "existential threat" down! If every republican - even one who twice voted to convict Trump - is an existential threat, it's all white noise to those to whom we wish to appeal.

Romney is not the Christian Right. You really do not know what Christian Right Nationalisms vs. Traditional Republicanism is:

They hide their xenophobia through being "Christian," despite not going to church or reading the Bible. They believe that America was founded by Christian men on good Christian principles. "So what they had slaves, that's just survival of the fittest- it is in the Bible." America first, not America last. They think Trump is the closest thing to Moses or Jesus Christ himself because he is a true Christian who is a victim. They believe he put America first, Christians first, and the Truth first.

They are generally over weight, undereducated, and over opinionated.

--- Republicans like Romney, McCain, Powell, and Condoleezza Rice are different. They believe that they are stewards of America being a global leader and superpower in the world. On the economic side, they honestly believe the government has "ruined" people by giving them more assistance than actually helping them with their problems and to get more people off the system. They also believe lower taxes and a little bit of government spending helps stimulate the economy.

They believe most social issues should be decided by the people because this is true representation. Abortion, for example, should be voted for at the state level. Regardless of their personal beliefs, they belief this is how democracy should work.

This group is generally well educated and have a higher income bracket.

Great. OP is blaming the black man for Trump.

Romney, who placed the dog house atop his station wagon to go on a family vacation was a real turnoff. The dog inside the dog house was terrified, and it was a cruel and stupid way to treat the dog. At least he wasn’t as despicable as Kristi Noem.

Due to the dog incident, I refused to consider voting for Romney. That said, I believe he would have been a much better president than the poor decision making of George W. Bush. Of course that is not a high bar. Near anyone would be better than that con man, Putin asset, Trump.

Fascist that he is, Romney gave us the model for Obamacare.

Though not a Romney voter, he has successful corporate executive skills. He would have appointed competent, appropriately experienced personnel to his administration, and managed their activities and decision making very well. As to his pro-big business policies and taxation views, that’s the debatable aspect.

One reality we may see soon is the impact of the multiple unfunded Republican expenditures - the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars, the Bush tax cuts, the Trump tax cuts. the prescription drug benefit, the Covid spending.. Even though deficit funded growth has been the rule for Republicans since Reagan, interest payments are now bigger than defense spending. Democrats have always taken pains to create “pay fors” so they can blunt accusations of overspending.

Even if there is no debt crisis, it’s a lot to pay for interest that could be going to other places.

Meanwhile, what about Mitt in and of himself?

Are any of you familiar with private equity?

Romney founded Bain Equity, one of the largest private equity firms in the world.

Private equity funds are set up by a fund manager like Bain. The fund is managed by them but the money in the fund comes from individuals and organizations with huge amounts of money. They put capital into the fund. The fund manager (Bain) then looks for companies to buy. These are almost always companies not doing well. The fund buys the company so now the company is owned by private equity.

The private equity company will own the company for about 3-7 years. During that time the private equity firm has ONE goal: to make the company worth more when they sell it than when they bought it. Why? Because when they sell the company the investors in the private equity fund get the profits — that’s the whole point of being a private equity investor. And the fund manager (Bain) gets huge fees.

So how does Bain make the company more profitable? Lay offs. Closing stores. Lowering product quality standards. Buying cheap product made in China. All of this puts more cash into the company, for that re-sale profit, but it devastates the lives of thousands of long term, loyal employees, drags the product through the mud, and is a recipe for disaster for everyone BUT the private equity fund.

In short, that’s Mitt Romney’s vision for America, its privileged .1%, and the masses of middle American employees. Company town? Welcome back.

Romney's seed capital came from the Poma family of El Salvador, who partially funded the death squads there.

You're missing the point of Bain Capital r97. It is to reduce capacity in mature industries. Bain Capital buys a leading company in a mature industry where profits are only 3 - 4 % in well run companies. Bain then uses the company's credit to go on an expansion spree buying up competitors. Bain then demands payments to repay its investments after loading the company up with debt. If the company survives paying off Bain and crippingly high interest on the huge new debt then Bain chose wisely. Otherwise the company will spiral and die and Bain doesn't care because the whole point is to reduce capacity so the businesses leftover can raise prices on reduced competition. It's using capitalism to REDUCE competition.

I’m not “missing the point”, r97. That is not always what private equity does (it certainly is one prong of their nefarious tactics).

But private equity almost invariably is bad for the company’s workers and callously mistreats them to benefit the massively rich. THAT’S the point in evaluating whether we “should have” elected Romney.

^^^ r98

R83 And remember Clinton was dubbed the first black President by the media. Nothing pisses off the racists more than a white person that supports people of color. It's why IMO they hate Biden so much, since he was Obama's VP.

R99 you're still not getting it. It's not just layoffs. It is a conspiracy to raise prices to consumers.

And it requires bank fraud to operate.

In his own way Romney is a bigger crook than Trump

It’s not just the USA and it’s hardly just MAGA. There is a turn away from the center and from the left, the right is certainly on the rise around the world. We are hardly unique. We may be the most important though.

[quote] John McCain could have and SHOULD HAVE devoted himself to ending Trump's campaign after the "I like the ones who weren't captured" moment. Why he didn't devote himself 24 hours a day toward shaming EVERY VOTER AND ELECTED OFFICIAL by name for supporting Trump until Trump was forced out, or ruined on the public stage is his eternal shame!

Wasn’t he really sick with cancer?

People who want to blame those that didn’t like Obama as hillbilly racists are over-simplifying the issue, imo. They weren’t comfortable with the idea of a black President but Obama wasn’t comfortable with them either. Like it or not it’s the president’s job to speak to all the people, not just the ones who like him. Plus, a lot of them were rust belt people who were really struggling so they felt like he didn’t really give a shit about them and their problems. That’s a simplification too, but my point is that the issues were more complex than just white people hating black people.

Osama Bin Bama

R106 I disagree, it is that simple. Most people are not that complicated.

I thought the point of this thread was not to relitigate Romney's virtues, not to make a case for or against his electoral appeal vis-a-vis Obama, but whether his election might have been for the larger good if it could have prevented a president Trump.

Romney is too wishy washy so no. Plus I will be forever grateful for Obamacare even if it is no longer inexpensive for me. It’s still way cheaper than what I would be paying without the ACA.

^ Obamacare is DEATH PANELS!!!!

The right wing has controlled national policy for 5 decades, ever since LBJ left office. Even when Democrats had the presidency, there were often blocks in some other branch of the government which stifled Democratic policies, often using procedural rules and tricks. . Think about how Newt Gingrich knee-capped Clinton. Think about how Mitch McConnell knee-capped Obama. Think about how McCarthy and and now Johnson have often knee-capped Biden. It's no accident that we have an iron-clad Supreme Court majority that is far to the right of Attilla the Hun.

R112

You describe some weak ass totally worthless democrats. By your view the Dems may win the WH, the Senate, the House, and often dominate the popular vote but are so fucking inept the right (or the gop) dominates US politics all the fucking time.. How fucking weak and lame and incompetent is that?

The US has never been an overly liberal or progressive country. It has though for decades been a Democratic Party run country.