Katharine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy

Tracy was Catholic, his wife was Protestant.

I believe Hepburn was bi and Tracy just liked sex, no matter how it came. That was the big cross he bore, and his son’s deafness was part of that.

I do think something as close to love as both could get existed between them. Probably in the beginning there was sex. Then it evolved into a give and take, with Tracy doing most of the taking. She would have found any other man acting the way he did weak-willed. Why she put up with it - his affairs, drinking - is something that will likely always be a mystery.

Tracy and his son were lovers. Tracy's shame made him drink even more, especially while fucking his own deaf kid.

R3, where the hell did you hear this story?!

R3 never heard that story. It simply materialized out of r3's keyboard.

Beginning in the 50's, Hepburn was the lover of Phyllis Wilbourn, who had previously been involved with Constance Collier. Wilbourn "worked" for Hepburn until her passing many years later.

She's a dyke, ya know!

William Mann’s biography of Katharine Hepburn is very good on this whole topic of how Hepburn slowly came to create and burnish the myth of their great love affair.

Garson Kanin (who had sexual issues of his own) essentially created this myth — Hepburn was livid about his appropriating her life and Tracy’s to make a buck. But she came to realize how useful that myth was to her legacy as she aged, and she came to embrace it, especially after Mrs Tracy died.

Mann has a myopic perspective and an axe to grind, where he seems bent on trying to prove everyone in Hollywood was gay or bi.

R4/R5, just kidding. Having some fun that the Tracy-Hepburn romance is being brought up on DL in 2024. I agree the Mann book was very good at setting straight, so to speak, Hepburn's sexuality.

No, R 9, not “bent on trying to prove everyone in Hollywood was gay or bi,” just bent on proving the gay and bi ones were. And what’s wrong with that?

“ although plausible”

This is how you know when someone has significant insight to facts others just don’t have,

As long as he was married to someone else, he didn't have to truly commit to her. Someone else was Mrs. Spencer Tracy, and he liked that just fine.

If he had wanted to be an honest, married couple with Hepburn, he would have found a way to divorce his wife. He never bothered to go the distance.

Tracy used to sleep off his frequent benders in a cottage on gay director George Cukor's estate. Hepburn would go there to probably clean up after him. She was devoted to him, but they were not lovers. Also, the notorious whore/pimp Scotty Bowers said he provided boys for Tracy. So, if you believe him, it makes sense.

Ask Cynthia McFadden - maybe she'll know.

Your middle paragraph is the most accurate OP. Hepburn played up the great romance story at the end of her life. After she died LIz Smith pretty much confirmed that Kate was gay (Garbo too). Scotty Bower’s book also confirmed William Mann’s take on Kate (and Tracy)..

Clever girl that Kate. She and Tracy were dear friends and Kate was his caretaker more or less. They resided in LA in separate guest cottages on the Cukor estate where they could be shielded from the press and well protected by Cukor.

According to Mann some of Kate’s close friends were appalled by her late career talk show, show of her relationship with Tracy. No one spun an image more cunningly that Katherine Hepburn.

[quote] Katherine Hepburn

Oh dear, R16.

R13 Hepburn said in an interview I watched just yesterday she never wanted to marry Tracy. Why do you assume she wanted to get married and he didn't?

R16 They had to be much more than "great friends" for her to put up with his severe binge drinking at times. She gave up her career for about five years just to take care of him. I can't think of any woman who does that for a "dear friend." Even Mann chronicles how Kate had relationships earlier in her life with other alcoholic, married men. I think it was in his book that I read that. A poet, and John Ford were two of them.

It is so clear there's was not a true romantic relationship, but Hepburn (as assisted by Garson Kanin), an obvious lesbian worked tirelessly to create the Hepburn-Tracy romance that everyone simply took her word for it, and most still do.

I have never derived any pleasure from thinking about Katharine Hepburn's sex life. Or Spencer Tracy's.

Hepburn was bisexual, not lesbian; she had sexual relationships with men including Leland Hayward, Howard Hughes, and John Ford, as well as women.

[quote] Scotty Bower’s book also confirmed William Mann’s take on Kate (and Tracy)..

Oh, please. Scotty Bowers was the most unreliable of sources.

Tracy loved dick and Hepburn loved cunt. A romance of pure convenience, and nothing else.

I find the Tracy/Hepburn comedies quite hard to watch these days. They have aged quite badly and their basic misogyny gets clearer over time. He is right and wins; she is wrong and loses, but knows her place and is ok with that. Judy Holliday is still great, though.

Alcoholic closeted fag & controlling dyke.

That's a simplistic and inaccurate description of their movies, R25, particularly ADAM'S RIB.

R26 - Matt Damon

Any truth to the rumor that Tracy and Hepburn were set to costar in a biopic about Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas when he died?

Such a confident analysis of two people you never met, R26.

Hepburn's lifelong BFF was Laura Harding, the American Express heiress. Harding was most definitely lesbian and she and Hepburn lived together off and on for decades.

They didn't live off and on for decades, but in the 1930s.

*They didn't live off and on together for decades

Katharine Hepburn was a dues paying member of

Daughters Of Bilitis

Hepburn always dressed in men's clothes. If anyone thinks she was anything but a massive bull dyke when the cameras weren't on her, they're nuts.

Yes, Miss R35, you've said it a few times.

R25 Which movie would that be the formula for? In Adam's Rib, she wins the court case, and makes a fool of him. In Pat and Mike, I don't see how he wins and she loses. Can you explain? In Without Love they enter into a marriage of convenience - there's no competition. How and what does he "win" in Desk Set, while she loses?

Not saying Tracy and Hepburn couldn't have had same-sex relationships, and Hepburn certainly dressed in a mannish way, especially for the time, though she didn't have a masculine persona. But what's the proof? Scotty Bowers saying so doesn't make it so.

We know Tracy was not some gay man who had no other relationships with women and just used his wife as a beard. He had an affair with Loretta Young in the '30s that made it into the papers and almost caused a divorce. Even when he was with Hepburn he had a roving eye, for Joan Fontaine, Grace Kelly and Gene Tierney, among others. That couldn't have been just a front. And as someone said above, Hepburn was involved publicly with Howard Hughes and Leland Hayward, privately with John Ford, and Many other men. Douglas Fairbanks Jr said he saw her necking in a car with Charles Boyer.

Exactly, R37.

[quote] Yes, Miss [R35], you've said it a few times.

And I say this to you madam, and I do mean this so nicely.

EAT ME!

Watch the Scotty Bowers documentary. Tells ALL.

Hard pass, R40, but thanks the offer.

Such a silly presumption that a married father needed a mistress as a beard. Wouldn't wife and child be enough. And tk thonk that in these conservative tines he would have pretended to be the adulterer to please the public.

If there is any truth in stories of their same sex relationships, they were probably bisexual.

They were both a mess. Hepburn was very careful to craft a rosy image of her parents but they seem like emotionless bullies.

Tracy was a lump of Catholic guilt with zero self control.

And yet, they were both movie stars, R44.

Hepburn's family was quite strange.

My feeling is that part of it was that having Spence on her side helped with the public and Hollywood accepting her as an unconventional, independent woman. She was box office poison for a while and a lot of traditionalists hated her.

Marlene Dietrich's daughter Maria Riva wrote in her book that Dietrich had a huge crush on Hepburn and wanted to lick her snatch in the worst way. Kate was never interested.

Did the suicide of her brother make Kate feel attracted by people who had weaknesses?

R49 : Actually, I think Hepburn came to hate weakness because she associated it with her brother‘s suicide, which I think gave her a certain contempt for male homosexuals (many have speculated that her brother committed suicide because he was gay and knew that wouldn’t fly with his bullying parents.) Hepburn strikes me as a male-identified lesbian who modeled herself on her strong, forthright father, and as a result she was attracted to confident, irascible men like Ford and Tracy, and developed a hard shell — she would never let weakness overcome her unyielding willpower. But alcoholism is also a weakness, one she had too much control to ever suffer from, and it pained her that Tracy was a blackout drunk, it disgusted her, as his propensity for rentboys did as well.

The MGM costume designer Irene was very talented with great taste but was known to have a drinking problem, one that her loyal staff covered up, even though she sometimes came to work conspicuously drunk. Hepburn developed a loathing for Irene, complaining that she hated the designs she created for some of her films (though Irene noted to her staff that Hepburn often walked off with pieces designed for her that she incorporated into her personal wardrobe). One day, Irene missed a fitting with Hepburn due to drunkenness and Katie went right to Louis B Mayer (who she adored) and had the designer fired. Her staff were horrified and told anyone who would listen that Hepburn was responsible. Since Irene looked like a dyke but apparently wasn’t, I wouldn’t be surprised if Hepburn made a pass at her which she spurned, earning Hepburn’s undying hatred.

Katie was an individual, was a mannered actress who could be great in the right role, but she was first and foremost a narcissist, a survivor, a self-promoter and a selfish cunt.

Wow r50 I never knew that about Hepburn and Irene. Great post.

Threads like this are why I love DL. So many of you know so much about Classic Hollywood.

It’s also reminds me of Lillian Hellman and her devotion to doddering drunk Dasheil Hammett. Sometimes women who feel unacceptable by their peers have a need to be involved with someone who is loved and respected by those peers.

R2 and R50 gave me great insight into how I've always seen her but couldn't articulate. I think she did have sexual relationships with men including Howard Hughes. But her and Spencer were soulmates of a non American traditional MAGA kind. And I don't think she ever thought she needed to go find a "soulmate" to make babies with. She was just a different broad.

Hepburn never wanted children. Later in life in interviews she said she never regretted her decision to not have children because she knew she would've been a terrible mother. She was too self involved and career focused.

No r53 both of them were staunch liberals. Nothing MAGA about them.

R50, where are the receipts about anything you say, including the firing of the costume designer Irene Lentz? Wikipedia said she left MGM to start her own fashion house. Where's your insight coming from? Your tinpan pscyhology of "Katie" isn't very convincing.

There's also not one word about the costume designer being fired in Mann's biography of Hepburn so I call bullshit, R50. Sounds like you just hate her--"cunt"? Calm down, Mary.

From the book “Irene, A Designer From the Golden Age of Hollywood,” by Frank Billecci and Lauranne B. Fisher, 2013.

Of course the fact that Irene was fired because of complaints of drunkenness from a major star would never have been reported at the time. MGM no doubt made a bland, supportive comment about Irene starting her own house. But people who knew her and worked with her told the real story.

And that's your receipt it was Hepburn, R50/R58?

Irene Lentz committed suicide by throwing herself out a window onto Wilshire Boulevard. And I thought I read that was over a broken affair with someone like Gary Cooper.

I'm probably getting some of that wrong but she did commit suicide.

Yes, that was also mentioned in Wikipedia, R60, except it didn't state there was an affair going on. Gary Cooper was a real cunt, by the way, not Hepburn.

Hepburn and Tracy were both highly complicated people whose neuroses were supported by the Hollywood PR machine. I don't know why that should be so difficult to comprehend, especially in these times of gender fluidity. They were ahead of their time.

I think there was real love between Hepburn and Tracy. She may have been bi but probably more school marm hetero, and then asexual after 55.

I love her Cavett interview and watch it every now and then.

Who's saying they can't comprehend it, R62? The oversimplification beig indulged on this thread is that Hepburn was lesbian, when she was bisexual.

Bette Davis's Cavett interview was better. She was so sharp and funny.

That's a matter of opinion, R65. If you like Davis more, you'll prefer the interview with her; vice-versa if you prefer Hepburn.

R59 — I am confused by your use of the word “receipt.”

If you are asking if that is my source for what I said about Hepburn getting Irene fired, then yes that is my source. It’s an actual book about the designer’s years at MGM. What else would I use as the source for what I relayed above?

Those two Cavett interviews are simply the best interviews ever done with movie stars. And they'll never be topped because we no longer have movie stars of that magnitude.

It doesn't name her personally, does it, R67?

Yes, it does, R69, the grudge Hepburn had against Irene is spelled out by assistants who witnessed it. Why is this so difficult to understand?

I was willing to give my interlocutor the benefit of the doubt thinking that maybe English isn’t their first language. Now I’m wondering — are you an AI bot?

We know Russians are flooding the internet with argumentstive conservative views, and there certainly seem to be an awful lot of conservative assholes lurking at Datalounge where they don’t belong. Are you part of the Russian front tasked with destroying cultural cohesion among U.S. gay men (only half kidding)?

One can admire Hepburn as an iconoclast representing a view of female independence that went against the current of the times (and often of her own movies) and be inspired by that. I personally love her performances in “Summertime,” “Desk Set” (my favorite Tracy/Hepburn movie), “Long Day’s Journey Into Night,” “The Lion in Winter” and others.

But performance isn’t reality, we can admire the one and deplore the other. And a selfish cunt is a selfish cunt.

What, R70??? Those disagreeing with you are now all Russian agents? An astonishing statement.

Hehe, I have been accused and seen other being accused of being Russian agents because of political disagreements, but it is the first time I have seen someone being prounonced Russian agent over the discord on Golden Hollywood actress.

It’s not mere disagreement, it’s the mangling/misuse of the English language, the inability to imagine stars of the classic period as human, fallible and fueled by sexual desire, and a general lack of comprehension even when faced with an actual source for an anecdote..

Add that to the torrent of conservative threads and comments within posts and you can color me curious.

R47 The public wasn't aware of her relationship with Tracy.

Desk Set is a fairly fun diversion but I always thought it was one of the weakest Tracy-Hepburn comedy vehicles. Walter Lang was no George Cukor or George Stevens. Hepburn wanted to make the movie (from a Shirley Booth play - as was Summertime) and eventually convinced Tracy to do it (she was willing to do it with Fred Astaire). I feel her part is much better - and seems larger - than his.

Hepburn - who was around 50 at the time and no longer a big box office draw - was told by Fox execs that unless Tracy was in the movie with her they weren't going to make the movie. Not that Tracy was huge box office at the time but as a team the studio figured they'd bring people in (the film almost broke even). Reviews were mixed.

Katharine was asexual, she didn't want anyone. The Spencer thang was obviously made up to hide the fact.

With Howard Hughes, back when he wasn't as germophobic.

How could a self-professed liberal like her hook up with an avowed bigot like Howard Hughes? Same with Ava Gardner, who used to call him out on his racism. I don't get it - the dick must've been good.

R70, I'm very much not a bot. But your trashing of Heoburn--calling her a cunt, a narcissist, mannered, selfish, self-absorbed--shows a dislike of Hepburn that's off the charts, and reveals you to be a cunt in your own way. And how pathetic do you have to be to think anyone who disagrees with you must be some kind of alien? Get a life, dear.

They were comfortable friends with each other.I don't think you have to look any further than their movies to surmise how much sexual heat there was. Do they ever even kiss? Garson is the one who started the "legend" with his book, didn't he? It cost him Kate's friendship, yet it created a myth that she certainly took advantage of.

[quote] Do they ever even kiss?

Yes, they do. Have you ever seen a Hepburn-Tracy movie, R81?

You're sorely misinformed, and you absolutely have nothing to go on when you say they were "comfortable friends"--whatever that's supposed to mean?

[quote]Yes, they do.

Example, r82?

Woman of the Year, Adam's Rib, Pat and Mike, Desk Set.

Fool.

R80 — I fully explained my (half serious) jest above, and accusations of bot-dom had nothing to do with the fact that you (or whomever) disagreed with me, which you’d know if you actually read my post (R73).

And I also confessed above that I recognize Hepburn’s strengths as a female star and personality and that there are performances of hers I like very much (R 70) but you clearly traffic in absolutes in black and white not shades of gray and since I’m not a Hepburn partisan or fanatic by all means disregard my opinion.

I’ve disregarded yours.

Well, Miss Snippy @ r84, name the scene. When exactly do they kiss in Adam's Rib or Desk Set?

Well, R85, your "half-serious jest" was neither funny nor accurate, nor was it in any way the jest you pretend it was. about the only thing I would agree with, despite your ridiculous attacks on her as if she were somehow unique in displaying any bad behavior, were the performances you listed as superb examples of her work as a film actress. And hunty, I disregarded you in your first post when you called her a cunt. That's the pot calling the kettle black.

R86, you said they never kissed. Did you see Woman of the Year?

[quote]Did you see Woman of the Year?

Not in a *very* long time, r87.

[quote]you said they never kissed

No, I didn't "say", I "asked"...

[quote]Do they ever even kiss?

I have seen Adam's Rib and Desk Set again not too long ago and am still waiting for an answer from r84.

[quote] Do they ever even kiss?

Yes, they do. Woman of the Year and Pat and Mike. So the answer is yes.

Yeah, their Woman of the year kiss. All the passion of the back of Spencer's head.

The question was: do they ever kiss?

Their mouths aren't even touching.

Talk about moving the goal post. That's a fucking kiss.

My original post:

[quote]I don't think you have to look any further than their movies to surmise how much sexual heat there was. Do they ever even kiss?

So, the answer is yes...on occasion. Having to search for examples myself, the only examples I found support my statement regarding "how much sexual heat" there was in their personal relationship

If you say so, r93.

You asked if they ever even kissed, R94. The answer is yes. So you've asked and been answered.

Yay, r95, you win.

That's right, R96. Maybe next time stop making stupid statements.

r97 - Yes, massa

I don't think the Garson Kanin book on Hepburn and Tracy was published until after Tracy died but I'm pretty certain the public was aware of their affair when they were reunited to make Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. I was only a teenager then but remember that. It may be true it wasn't written about and yet it was public knowledge.

Hepburn's label as "box office poison" was in 1938, before she ever made a film with Tracy.

Of course their affair was a well-known secret in Tracy's lifetime, regardless of how much of an affair it was. But to say it never existed is ludicrous.

R53, it’s “she and [insert name].” Never “her and[insert name], It’s “he and”, not “him and”.

Why would Kate have cared about Garson Kanin “outing” them if the relationship was a beard?

By the way, here's the "selfish" "cunt" Katharine Hepburn, as R70 refers to her, speaking against Joseph McCarthy and the House Un-American Acrtivities Committee, before it really cost her and made her nearly blacklisted.

That was real guts on her part, but apparently R70 is too stupid to know about this part of the noble history of this "cunt," as he calls her.

"Selfish cunt," to quote R70.

R70=asshole.

And please listen all the way to the end of her brilliant speech. She deserves more than idiots like R70 suggests this "cunt" suggests.

What a "selfish cunt" she was, right, R70?

Kate thought all those 80s actresses were affected and inauthentic. She only liked Melanie Griffith and Julia Roberts. Because she could see IT.

Wow, I really struck a nerve. Calm down, I’m well aware she was a forthright Democrat at a time in the postwar years when that wasn’t fashionable and could have a negative impact on a career.

I’m also aware she allowed a story to circulate that she spit in Joe Mankiewicz’s face because he was so cruel to Montgomery Clift on the set of “Suddenly Last Summer,” when the reality was that Mankiewicz was very sensitive to Clift’s problems, and often took him aside to talk to and encourage him quietly on the set. Hepburn got mad at her director for another reason: At the end of Elizabeth Taylor’s long monologue exposing her cousin Sebastian and his mother Violet Venable, Mankiewicz wanted his cinematographer to photograph Hepburn in a less flattering light than she had been getting earlier in the movie to show that the revelations had aged her in minutes. When Hepburn got wind of it she freaked, spit in Mankiewicz’s face, called him a misogynist and walked off the set. Realizing how unprofessional her behavior had been she made up the other story, which was clearly nonsense — Taylor adored Clift and would never have agreed to let Mankiewicz take over the screenwriting and direction of “Cleopatra” if he had treated her friend badly. But Hepburn spun the embarrassing anecdote in her favor. (And my “receipt” for this anecdote is ‘Competing With Idiots, Herman & Joe Mankiewicz, A Dual Portrait’ by Nick Davis.)

Katie was still a willful, selfish twat, never moreso than when she was sailing into a rocky old age and was desperate to shape her legacy. She was only human, as we all are. Maybe except for the bots here!

R109 is a gash who's never done anything for anyone and is a failure who will die alone.

And now I'm done with you. Bye.

Hepburn and Tracy never did any particularly passionate kissing scenes with anyone. Kate with Jimmy Stewart in The Philadelphia Story was one of the few. The Tracy-Hepburn relationship in Woman of the Year was a sexy one, no question about it. They had several exchanges that were rather loaded, for the time. Not all their movies were as sexy. They did kiss in several movies. But what they did in a movie or didn't do is proof of nothing.

There were strict rules in place via the Hays Code re kissing in Hollywood films and Tracy and Hepburn, especially when under the thumb of conservative MGM, paid heed to them. Also, Tracy and Hepburn were never sold to audiences as a steamy, sexy hot team like, say Gable and Harlow or Hedy Lamar and Charles Boyer or Rita Hayworth and Tyrone Power or Joan Crawford and....any man would have been.

It's not what their sexual chemistry on film together (and even apart) was ever about.

This thread and others had me watching Cavett interviewing Burton and Burton and Taylor being interviewed in LA. Also watched an interview with Gielgud. Fascinating. Frenemies with Olivier.

[quote]I love her Cavett interview and watch it every now and then.

I haven't watched this yet, it's broken into two parts on YouTube but it has to be streaming somewhere.

R115 ...Why can't you just watch it in two parts on YouTube?

Not pertinent I guess but I happened to watch this Cavett interview with Lucy yesterday. I kept thinking of the Katharine Hepburn interview and especially the first Bette Davis interview he did. Davis was hilarious, charming, and delightful (even if Dick barely got a word in - but I guess that's not necessarily a bad thing).Constantly Hepburn was very winning, as well.

Then there was poor Lucy. She came off as just weird. She faced away from Cavett for almost the entire interview. I've never seen anyone else do that. She wore a jacket with feathers that she never stopped picking at and playing with. She did tell two very funny stories, and was touching talking about people she missed in Hollywood who had died.

I found both of them to be unbearable together in movies.

R118 You were in the minority.

Lucy was great but no Hepburn or Davis.

R35 So did Marlene Dietrich. Yet, she was bi, not a "massive dyke"

Apparently, in the old days there was no such thing as bisexuality. People were either gay or straight.

Controlling Dyke + Alcoholic Closet Case = Phoneywood Fauxmance

They've been dead for ages. We'll never know the details. It really doesn't matter.

But it really matters enough for R124 to say "it doesn't doesn't matter".😂

Why would he need a beard? He was married to a woman with a child

All these sex-starved harlots running around the Metro lot simply EXHAUSTED me, I tell you!

Actually, Tracy was married to a woman with two children. He was even their father. Twice the reason not to need a beard.

Agreed R126/R128. This is one of the silliest conspiracy theories. That a married father (and in conservative US in 50s and 60s), needed a mistress to prove that he is not gay.

Even if they both were bisexual, no doubt he and Hepburn had genuine relationship.

I was a movie buff at a young age and read all the books I could--got so I could tell tall tales from the ring of truth. Then the internet happened. Now many people have knowledge of the classic movie era, based on podcasts, YouTube, gossip sites, and a lot of false stuff gets repeated over and over. Now it's become incredibly hard to separate fact from fiction, and everyone is a self-styled "expert" on people who all dead before they were born, or grew up, anyway.

*died

Liz Smith said that Katherine was gay. Why would she lie?

I don't know, R132. Why would you misspell Katharine?

Katharine Hepburn was a dues paying member of

DAUGHTERS OF BILITIS

If Hepburn was a lesbian then she put up with a lot of shit from Spencer Tracy for years for no reason.

On that Shirley Eder taped conversation with Barbara Stanwyck, doesn’t Stanwyck mention the Tracy-Hepburn relationship? BS was a Hollywood insider so, if it was a bogus relationship, I doubt she would have treated it seriously in a private convo.

(r135) Katharine enjoyed Spencer's company, when he was sober - strictly as friends. She also saw herself as a bit of a rescuer and thought she could help him to sort his life out.

R137 I think this has already been stated but friendship doesn’t normally account for behavior like Hepburn’s (or Tracy’s). The number of years they were close to each other as well as the fact that Hepburn gave up her film career for about 5 years (a long time, in an important career that meant a great deal to her) to care for Tracy indicate strong emotional attachment.

There’s also no logical reason why Hepburn would have been furious with her friend Garson Kanin for writing the memoir, Tracy and Hepburn, that exposed their relationship, if there had been no relationship to expose.

[quote]I believe Hepburn was bi and Tracy just liked sex, no matter how it came. That was the big cross he bore, and his son’s deafness was part of that.

Umm....WHAT????