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In Our Name: A Message from Jewish Students at Columbia University

"To the Columbia Community:

Over the past six months, many have spoken in our name. Some are well-meaning alumni or non-affiliates who show up to wave the Israeli flag outside Columbia’s gates. Some are politicians looking to use our experiences to foment America’s culture war. Most notably, some are our Jewish peers who tokenize themselves by claiming to represent “real Jewish values,” and attempt to delegitimize our lived experiences of antisemitism. We are here, writing to you as Jewish students at Columbia University, who are connected to our community and deeply engaged with our culture and history. We would like to speak in our name.

Many of us sit next to you in class. We are your lab partners, your study buddies, your peers, and your friends. We partake in the same student government, clubs, Greek life, volunteer organizations, and sports teams as you.

Most of us did not choose to be political activists. We do not bang on drums and chant catchy slogans. We are average students, just trying to make it through finals much like the rest of you. Those who demonize us under the cloak of anti-Zionism forced us into our activism and forced us to publicly defend our Jewish identities.

We proudly believe in the Jewish People’s right to self-determination in our historic homeland as a fundamental tenet of our Jewish identity. Contrary to what many have tried to sell you – no, Judaism cannot be separated from Israel. Zionism is, simply put, the manifestation of that belief.

Our religious texts are replete with references to Israel, Zion, and Jerusalem. The land of Israel is filled with archaeological remnants of a Jewish presence spanning centuries. Yet, despite generations of living in exile and diaspora across the globe, the Jewish People never ceased dreaming of returning to our homeland — Judea, the very place from which we derive our name, “Jews.” Indeed just a couple of days ago, we all closed our Passover seders with the proclamation, “Next Year in Jerusalem!”

Many of us are not religiously observant, yet Zionism remains a pillar of our Jewish identities. We have been kicked out of Russia, Libya, Ethiopia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Poland, Egypt, Algeria, Germany, Iran, and the list goes on. We connect to Israel not only as our ancestral homeland but as the only place in the modern world where Jews can safely take ownership of their own destiny. Our experiences at Columbia in the last six months are a poignant reminder of just that.

We were raised on stories from our grandparents of concentration camps, gas chambers, and ethnic cleansing. The essence of Hitler’s antisemitism was the very fact that we were “not European” enough, that as Jews we were threats to the “superior” Aryan race. This ideology ultimately left six million of our own in ashes.

The evil irony of today’s antisemitism is a twisted reversal of our Holocaust legacy; protestors on campus have dehumanized us, imposing upon us the characterization of the “white colonizer.” We have been told that we are “the oppressors of all brown people” and that “the Holocaust wasn’t special.” Students at Columbia have chanted “we don’t want no Zionists here,” alongside “death to the Zionist State” and to “go back to Poland,” where our relatives lie in mass graves.

cont...

by Anonymousreply 112May 20, 2024 1:52 PM

"This sick distortion illuminates the nature of antisemitism: In every generation, the Jewish People are blamed and scapegoated as responsible for the societal evil of the time. In Iran and in the Arab world, we were ethnically cleansed for our presumed ties to the “Zionist entity.” In Russia, we endured state-sponsored violence and were ultimately massacred for being capitalists. In Europe, we were the victims of genocide because we were communists and not European enough. And today, we face the accusation of being too European, painted as society’s worst evils – colonizers and oppressors. We are targeted for our belief that Israel, our ancestral and religious homeland, has a right to exist. We are targeted by those who misuse the word Zionist as a sanitized slur for Jew, synonymous with racist, oppressive, or genocidal. We know all too well that antisemitism is shapeshifting.

We are proud of Israel. The only democracy in the Middle East, Israel is home to millions of Mizrachi Jews (Jews of Middle Eastern descent), Ashkenazi Jews (Jews of Central and Eastern European descent), and Ethiopian Jews, as well as millions of Arab Israelis, over one million Muslims, and hundreds of thousands of Christians and Druze. Israel is nothing short of a miracle for the Jewish People and for the Middle East more broadly.

Our love for Israel does not necessitate blind political conformity. It’s quite the opposite. For many of us, it is our deep love for and commitment to Israel that pushes us to object when its government acts in ways we find problematic. Israeli political disagreement is an inherently Zionist activity; look no further than the protests against Netanyahu’s judicial reforms – from New York to Tel Aviv – to understand what it means to fight for the Israel we imagine. All it takes are a couple of coffee chats with us to realize that our visions for Israel differ dramatically from one another. Yet we all come from a place of love and an aspiration for a better future for Israelis and Palestinians alike.

If the last six months on campus have taught us anything, it is that a large and vocal population of the Columbia community does not understand the meaning of Zionism, and subsequently does not understand the essence of the Jewish People. Yet despite the fact that we have been calling out the antisemitism we’ve been experiencing for months, our concerns have been brushed off and invalidated. So here we are to remind you:

We sounded the alarm on October 12 when many protested against Israel while our friends’ and families’ dead bodies were still warm.

We recoiled when people screamed “resist by any means necessary,” telling us we are “all inbred” and that we “have no culture.”

We shuddered when an “activist” held up a sign telling Jewish students they were Hamas’s next targets, and we shook our heads in disbelief when Sidechat users told us we were lying.

We ultimately were not surprised when a leader of the CUAD encampment said publicly and proudly that “Zionists don’t deserve to live” and that we’re lucky they are “not just going out and murdering Zionists.”

We felt helpless when we watched students and faculty physically block Jewish students from entering parts of the campus we share, or even when they turned their faces away in silence. This silence is familiar. We will never forget.

One thing is for sure. We will not stop standing up for ourselves. We are proud to be Jews, and we are proud to be Zionists.

We came to Columbia because we wanted to expand our minds and engage in complex conversations. While campus may be riddled with hateful rhetoric and simplistic binaries now, it is never too late to start repairing the fractures and begin developing meaningful relationships across political and religious divides. Our tradition tells us, “Love peace and pursue peace.” We hope you will join us in earnestly pursuing peace, truth, and empathy. Together we can repair our campus.

Signed:

322 Jewish students"

by Anonymousreply 1May 10, 2024 8:54 AM

Actually it's now got more than 500 student signatures.

by Anonymousreply 2May 10, 2024 8:55 AM

DL is incapable of discussing this issue like adults.

by Anonymousreply 3May 10, 2024 8:58 AM

I applaud them. It needed to be said.

by Anonymousreply 4May 10, 2024 9:10 AM

Their statement is moving. This situation is so complex, so many layers. We do need peace.

by Anonymousreply 5May 10, 2024 9:14 AM

[quote] Actually it's now got more than 500 student signatures.

Was Riverto Thesea a signatory?

by Anonymousreply 6May 10, 2024 9:25 AM

R5 What is complex about a genocide? Israel has killed 30 000 innocent people, many of them women and children. Israel has been stealing Palestine land for decades and now they are slaughtering Palestines meanwhile the whole world stands by and does nothing. USA supports the genocide, which is disgusting and vile.

by Anonymousreply 7May 10, 2024 9:39 AM

They said nothing about the genocide. Nothing about Palestine, Palestinian people or their rights. They used the same old arguments they always use "you're either with us or you're antisemittic", "Israel is the only democracy in the middle east" etc. They talk about the fact that the Jewish people deserve a homeland. What abour the Palestines? Do they not deserve a country to call their own? It's rich that they talk about otherness and discrimination when we have all seen how Israel treats palestines. This whole letter is propaganda. I'm not buying it.

by Anonymousreply 8May 10, 2024 9:46 AM

R8 is like Rainman with his 30,000 number in every thread about Israel. I can see him sitting and rocking back and forth in a corner sputtering out, “Disgusting and Vile.”

And he always likes his own posts. He’s usually the only one who does.

by Anonymousreply 9May 10, 2024 10:22 AM

TLDR.

Also, HOW EVERY DARE YOU!!!

-- Gender fluid, Radical POC Queer with ADHD and PTSD, Class of '26

by Anonymousreply 10May 10, 2024 10:36 AM

R10

by Anonymousreply 11May 10, 2024 10:40 AM

Terrorism is evil. The world should side with anyone forced to fight back against it. Shocking that so many defend it or don't even mention the atrocities of Hamas while blaming the victims of Hamas.

by Anonymousreply 12May 10, 2024 11:25 AM

Modern terrorism was basically invented by Irgun and the Stern Gang, r12 — Zionist criminal gangs who used it against the British for not immediately turning Palestine over to the Zionist invaders. Thr car bombing of the King David Hotel is the best known example.

These ziono students claim (of course) that the critics of Israeli fascism are hiding “under a veil of anti-Zionism but we know they’re just doing it because they’re anti-Jew bigots” — even the many Jews who are protesting, I guess.

American Zionism is a cult — the brainwashing begins at childhood.

The gaslighting they use is no different than something out of Heaven’s Gate—they tell you how you really feel about things, your true motives. Except Heaven’s Gate was only harmful to the cultists themselves. Zionism is built on, and only survives via, murderous violence on an epic scale.

Oh, another difference — the U.S. Government did not enthusiastically throw billions of dollars of taxpayer money at Heavens Gate.

by Anonymousreply 13May 10, 2024 11:44 AM

[Quote] Shocking that so many defend it or don't even mention the atrocities of Hamas

R12 would like you to ignore everything that happened before 10/7, including invasion, massive murder, dispossession, occupation, and oppression, with hundreds of thousands of Palestinians killed, wounded or made into refugees, all because r12 wanted to steal their villages.

Then r12 is aghast when they have the never to inflict .01% of that back. R12 is the poster child for ziono gaslighting.

by Anonymousreply 14May 10, 2024 11:48 AM

^^^ the nerve

by Anonymousreply 15May 10, 2024 11:51 AM

OP, link.

by Anonymousreply 16May 10, 2024 12:26 PM

Thank you OP for posting this. It needed saying and it needed posting here.

Sadly it'll be completely lost on a few posters here, like pearls before swine

by Anonymousreply 17May 10, 2024 12:27 PM

Sorry, R16. The original letter was shared on a Google Doc, so I just copied and pasted. But here's the archived link.

It's being reported everywhere from the NYT to The Times of Israel, but I was afraid that no matter which news source I went with someone would accuse it of being biased in some way, so I just decided to let the letter stand on its own.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 18May 10, 2024 12:41 PM

I'm not Jewish, R14. But I'll always side with any group or country forced to contend with terrorism after being attacked. Terrorists are the bad guys, and nothing justifies the horrors of terrorism.

by Anonymousreply 19May 10, 2024 12:41 PM

R14. What invasion are you talking about? Maybe you could explain to us how Gaza came to be in Israeli hands. That might be enlightening.

by Anonymousreply 20May 10, 2024 1:04 PM

R20 since I doubt R14 is going to explain I'll do it - in short they won it in a war they didnt start in 1967, and they gave it back to the Palestinians in 2005. Every Jewish person in Gaza was removed;

[quote]Gaza was occupied by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War after the defeat of a coalition of Arab armies. Under Israeli occupation, existing structures of administration in Gaza would be maintained and administrative tasks would continue to be executed by Palestinian civil servants.

[quote]In September 1993, leaders of Israel and the PLO signed the Oslo Accords calling for Palestinian administration of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank town of Jericho, which was implemented in May 1994. Israeli forces withdrew from Gaza, leaving a new Palestinian National Authority (PNA) to administer and police the city. Led by Yasser Arafat, the PNA chose Gaza as its first provincial headquarters. The newly established Palestinian National Council held its inaugural session in Gaza in March 1996.

[quote]In 2005, Israel implemented its unilateral disengagement plan under which it unilaterally withdrew Israeli armed forces and settlements from the Gaza Strip, including the Philadelphi Route, a narrow strip adjacent to the Gaza border with Egypt, and began the blockade of the Gaza Strip. Hamas won a surprise victory in the Palestinian elections of 2006, and has been engaged in a violent power struggle with Fatah.

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by Anonymousreply 21May 10, 2024 1:15 PM

All you gays for Gaza should go over to the Middle East and see how they treat you anywhere outside of Israel. Truly cognitive dissonance with this bullshit.

I understand why these college kids fall for the Iranian propaganda, but alarming when actual gay adults start spouting this hysteria with their buzzwords on a gay forum.

Guess you the Palestinians want to genocide? The Jews and YOU. Your homosexual existence is a death penalty crime over there.

But sure - keep shilling for Hamas.

None of the rest of us are buying it.

by Anonymousreply 22May 10, 2024 1:25 PM

They have my full support.

by Anonymousreply 23May 10, 2024 2:15 PM

R22 no one with conservative religious values is your friend. On this day they may not murder you in the street, but that is no reason to give them any of your trust.

by Anonymousreply 24May 10, 2024 2:29 PM

R22 Just a little reality testing: the Ultra Orthodox factions that are the reason Netanyahu is in power... hate homosexuals. As recently as June, 2023 an ultra-orthodox member of the Knesset asserted in public that homosexuality was a bigger threat than Hamas or Hezbollah. Yes, there are blocks where gay folk live happily in Tel Aviv, but if we want to really examine the truth, we cannot pretend that ultra-orthodox zionists in Israel and extreme Islamists are pretty much the same with gay folk.

I guess you could say I am Zionist... I've had deep personal sadness horror over the Shoa, as a kid I wanted to go live and work on a kibbutz. I am appalled by the real, on-going antisemitism all over the world. I the last few decades of the 20th century what happened in Russia and Iran is similar to what happened in Nazi Germany. I am a goy. I also am willing to see truth as it unfolds in ways that may contradict my assumed beliefs. Palestinians are, by many measures, second class citizens in Israel. The ongoing jewish colonization of the West Bank was short-sighted, and illegal. Allowing the insupportable environments in Gaza, for decades, was a defining mistake: a two-state solution that gave lands back to the Palestinians was the smart, long term security for Israel.

Also, Hamas is a terrorist entity. They have caused unlimited pain for the Palestinian people. Eqypt and Jordan and other arab countries have failed the Palestinian people in their closing off borders, and using antipathy to Israel as fuel for their own domestic political purposes.

Hamas attack in October was horrific. There is NO defense of it.

IDF overcharged response is horrific, ongoing. There is NO defense in killing 35,000 civilians, mostly women and children. It is a huge mistake. An international crime and stupidly ineffective to the longterm interests of Israel. Simple fact: the longstanding international support and respect for Israel is seriously eroded.

So, the point: the writer of the letter in OP's post is, by definition, one-sided. So transparently one-sided, they lose the ability to speak to, to convince. those that don't already agree with them. It has some sloppy logic: for example it criticizes those who use Zionist to mean Jewish and then asserts that exact same point.

I love Israel, it must remain a homeland for Jews... but it is also a country whose borders include Palestinians whose birthrates increase their % of Israel's population. Hamas and Netanyahu/IDF have both totally fucked Israel. The jewish Colombia students' letter doesn't understand that truth.

by Anonymousreply 25May 10, 2024 3:20 PM

R20, perhaps you could explain why, if Palestinian self determination is so vital, Egypt did not work to establish Palestine as a country when it held the Gaza Strip. Perhaps Egypt was too busy launching Fedayeen raids from Gaza into Israel.

by Anonymousreply 26May 10, 2024 7:09 PM

The 30,000 figure is pure fiction, concocted by the Hamas run Health Ministry. The numbers have never been independently verified by ANYONE. If there’s a genocide against “Palestinians,” why don’t their population numbers ever go down? The Jew hatred here is astounding.

by Anonymousreply 27May 10, 2024 7:23 PM

Good post R25. I read this letter and thought of my British friends who say “well that’s too then.”

by Anonymousreply 28May 10, 2024 7:28 PM

I also forgot to mention: the ~81mm popular vote figure for Biden in 2020 is pure fiction, concocted by the DNC-run Deep State and their pawns in the media. The numbers have never been independently verified by ANYONE. If Bi-dumb really didn’t win without fraud and dead people voting for him, then why is Trump still so popular?!!!?!?!!?!?!! The MAGA hatred here is astounding

by Anonymousreply 29May 10, 2024 7:42 PM

Early start to the weekend?

by Anonymousreply 30May 10, 2024 7:50 PM

Judaism CAN be separated from Israel

This person sounds dumb

by Anonymousreply 31May 10, 2024 7:53 PM

R29. We’re glad you remembered to mention that.

by Anonymousreply 32May 10, 2024 7:57 PM

Exactly r31. And it’s a slap in the face to Jews who do not identify as Zionist or are critical / unsupportive of Israel as a state (which doesn’t mean they must be against or hostile toward the people of Israel).

This is exactly the type of language and rhetoric employed by cults

by Anonymousreply 33May 10, 2024 7:59 PM

Ah, yes, the old "Jews are in a cult" argument, again. Saying 10,000 times doesn't make it true.

by Anonymousreply 34May 10, 2024 8:14 PM

All religions are cults.

There -- I said it.

by Anonymousreply 35May 10, 2024 8:31 PM

R33:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 36May 11, 2024 1:00 AM

R33:

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by Anonymousreply 37May 11, 2024 1:01 AM

^Whether you like it or not.

by Anonymousreply 38May 11, 2024 1:02 AM

Gotta say, if Jews are a cult, they're doing a REAL shit job at recruitment.

by Anonymousreply 39May 11, 2024 1:03 AM

[quote]Judaism CAN be separated from Israel

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 40May 11, 2024 1:08 AM

“ The U.S. has concluded it was “reasonable to assess” Israel has violated international humanitarian law in its war conduct in Gaza”

“ “Given Israel’s significant reliance on U.S.-made defense articles, it is reasonable to assess that defense articles covered under [the national security memorandum] have been used by Israeli security forces since October 7 in instances inconsistent with its [international humanitarian law] obligations or with established best practices for mitigating civilian harm,” officials wrote in the report.”

“ The intelligence findings further raise concern about Israel’s war conduct, saying that Israel’s security forces “have inflicted harm on civilians in military or security operations, potentially using U.S.-provided equipment.””

“ Officials also said Israel has not shared complete information to verify whether U.S. weapons have been used in violation of international humanitarian law in Gaza, the West Bank or East Jerusalem. ”

“ The reports authors provided specific instances of attacks on humanitarian aid deliveries, sheltering Palestinians, and Israeli actions that “delayed or had a negative effect on the delivery of aid to Gaza.””

“ In the report, officials also noted that Israel has repeatedly struck humanitarian aid workers, including seven workers from the charity World Central Kitchen (WCK) in April, despite attempts to avoid those casualties. More than 250 aid workers have died in Gaza.”

“ The State Department review also found credible reports of “Israeli airstrikes impacting civilians and civilian objects unrelated to humanitarian operations that have raised questions about Israel’s compliance with its legal obligations.””

“ “While Israel has the knowledge, experience, and tools to implement best practices for mitigating civilian harm in its military operations,” the report says, “the results on the ground, including high levels of civilian casualties, raise substantial questions as to whether [Israel] is using them effectively in all cases.””

This will be settled in The Hague.

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by Anonymousreply 41May 11, 2024 1:33 AM

There's a lot to unpack. They seem to pay lip service to Israel's religious diversity while using their religion to lay claim to the land. I don't think you can respect other religions while asserting that God gave YOU the land and YOU are uniquely entitled to it. They also claim to "come from a place of love and an aspiration for a better future for Israelis and Palestinians alike" but bristle at the accusations of oppression or colonialism. I also think it takes a lot of balls to jerk yourself off over Israel's status as a democracy when so many people living under Israeli rule are denied basic rights let alone the right to vote. Israel deserves an asterisk next to it's status as a democracy. Overall I think it's a pretty extreme letter dressed up in some diplomatic language. Of course I expected nothing less from an open letter claiming to speak for most members of a large group.

by Anonymousreply 42May 11, 2024 1:37 AM

I'm completely unmoved by this bullshit statement.

by Anonymousreply 43May 11, 2024 1:49 AM

R42. The state of Israel is a true democracy with a large non-Jewish population with full citizenship rights and religious pluralism. The conditions outside the state of Israel are another matter but the situation there is more complicated than you acknowledge.

by Anonymousreply 44May 11, 2024 1:55 AM

Mmhmm R44

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by Anonymousreply 45May 11, 2024 2:07 AM

And the US just voted to shut down TikTok. Al Jareeza is basically Russia Today. Jihadi propaganda shit coming from the Hamas loving Qatar.

by Anonymousreply 46May 11, 2024 2:12 AM

R46 so you don’t believe in a free press.

by Anonymousreply 47May 11, 2024 2:13 AM

Free as long as the sick, evil, filthy people are in complete control

by Anonymousreply 48May 11, 2024 2:16 AM

R45. Wow, you got me there !!!!!

by Anonymousreply 49May 11, 2024 2:17 AM

R47 - so you believe the US doesn't have a free press based on the blocking of TikTok?

by Anonymousreply 50May 11, 2024 2:18 AM

R50 while I believe threatening to shut down TikTok is stupid and a form of censorship, I don’t think it’s a news operation, I believe it is social media. The two are different last time I checked. I think Fox is a mess but I wouldn’t agree with it being taken off the air for instance.

Also idk if you’re up to speed but TikTok has not been blocked.

by Anonymousreply 51May 11, 2024 2:23 AM

Yet, R51. Congress overwhelmingly voted to ban it, we'll see what happens in a few months. Whether you think it's a news outlet or not, for many it's their only source for news. Which works out well for the CCP.

As for Al Jazeera- Israelis can still access it via Youtube, the article says the 'block' is more symbolic than practical. This is major evidence Israel isn't a democracy?

by Anonymousreply 52May 11, 2024 2:27 AM

Can the war be over already? So as to stop the continued killing of innocents AND also start to heal the vicious rising anti-semitism

by Anonymousreply 53May 11, 2024 2:27 AM

R52 it doesn’t matter what you or I think, it’s a social media company. It doesn’t produce journalism in house, therefore it is not a news company. Idk why you’d want to focus on that. Tell me, what’s the difference between the NY Times and Facebook.

Just because an outlet is used for distribution of social media but non employed users does not make that a news organization. And like you say, it is not blocked it’s currently available.

by Anonymousreply 54May 11, 2024 2:34 AM

Voter intimidation of Arab voters in prior Israeli elections.

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by Anonymousreply 55May 11, 2024 2:34 AM

This letter makes me sad.

by Anonymousreply 56May 11, 2024 6:57 AM

[quote]attempt to delegitimize our lived experiences of antisemitism.

"Experiences" is more than sufficient.

by Anonymousreply 57May 11, 2024 7:24 AM

R57 Agreed. I don't know why that became such a buzz phrase. Like, as opposed to what—dreamed experiences?

by Anonymousreply 58May 11, 2024 7:52 AM

[quote]As for Al Jazeera- Israelis can still access it via Youtube, the article says the 'block' is more symbolic than practical. This is major evidence Israel isn't a democracy?

Most of Europe have banned Russia Today from its digital channels. Are they not democracies?

by Anonymousreply 59May 11, 2024 8:04 AM

Since 1934 US law does not allow majority foreign ownership of domestic news broadcast corporations.

TikToxic isn’t banned as long as the American arm is sold to an American citizen.

FWIW the Trump administration tried to undo that law on China’s behalf. Under all that racist bluster, he was working for the PRC

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by Anonymousreply 60May 11, 2024 10:17 AM

They are the minority and lost the world’s support. Israel has a massive PR problem and Millennials and Gen Z are two generations that are going to be in charge soon and will be cutting off the welfare checks to Israel. It was over the minute Israel began taking out full page ads and attacking pop stars on Twitter. Bibi destroyed them.

by Anonymousreply 61May 11, 2024 10:18 AM

R61 First of all, Israel doesn't receive "welfare checks". If anyone in the Middle East receives "welfare checks", it's Palestine. All of the aid Israel receives goes toward military defense, which is what enables our only ally (and the only democracy) in the ME—a region that is very much dedicated to the destruction of the west—to remain intact. Israel doesn't need a PR campaign in order for anyone that actually understands geopolitics and diplomatic relations to recognize the importance of protecting its existence.

by Anonymousreply 62May 11, 2024 10:50 AM

R62 is correct. Israel has received no economic assistance since 2005, only military assistance, the vast majority of that in US made military hardware

Since April 2021, the United States has provided over half a billion dollars in assistance for the Palestinians, including more than $417 million in humanitarian assistance for Palestinians through UNRWA, $75 million in support through USAID, and $20.5 million in COVID and Gaza recovery assistance (from Wikipedia)

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by Anonymousreply 63May 11, 2024 1:06 PM

R63 and what do they use the money that they would have used on their military from their own coffers. Any money given, no matter what category, benefits a country economically. You’re trying to use kindergarten level accounting to blow smoke it’s so embarrassing for you lol.

by Anonymousreply 64May 11, 2024 5:28 PM

r64

by Anonymousreply 65May 11, 2024 5:30 PM

R64 Both side use the aid money to buy weapons. Israel is at least completely transparent about it

by Anonymousreply 66May 11, 2024 5:35 PM

R66 and who got more?

by Anonymousreply 67May 11, 2024 6:02 PM

[quote] Contrary to what many have tried to sell you – no, Judaism cannot be separated from Israel. Zionism is, simply put, the manifestation of that belief.

That's not fact. That's just their very biased opinion.

by Anonymousreply 68May 11, 2024 6:05 PM

R68 So true—which is why since the 10th century Jews have repeated the phrase "next year in Boca!"

by Anonymousreply 69May 11, 2024 6:16 PM

R68 R69 There are so many ways to be Jewish...

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by Anonymousreply 70May 11, 2024 6:49 PM

Why is OP greyed out?

by Anonymousreply 71May 11, 2024 6:51 PM

^^^ I like their slogan: "Never again... for anyone."

by Anonymousreply 72May 11, 2024 6:51 PM

R71 Wtf...I'm GREYED OUT??? Seriously, I'm about finished with this site.

I am a goddamn AMIABLE FELLOW on here. I don't post racist, sexist, homophobic, Republican, or hideously unclever content. I've only had one outspoken position that's seemed to piss anyone off here, and that is the fact that I am a proud Jewish Zionist. And when I share that here, I don't do it in a "die in a grease fire, you vile cunt" kind of way. I would say v8fairy and I are pretty much on the same peg of the "pro-Israel spectrum".

But for some reason, some Pro-Pali nut (or a small handful of them) have been FF'ing me into fucking oblivion every time I comment on ANY Israel/Palestine thread in the last week or so. I was given my very first 48-hour time-out earlier in the week for no discernible reason other than I pissed off an extremely persistent DL antisemite. And now this?? Literally just for posting this letter?!

Seriously, Muriel—I don't call on you often and I do not use your name in vain. But if this is the direction DL is going to be allowed to go in, you'd better at least make a statement defending it.

by Anonymousreply 73May 11, 2024 7:08 PM

R71 and R73 you need to set your "Flames and Freaks" slider all the way to "Asbestos Eyeballs" (under Settings in the top bar) and OP shouldnt be greyed out.

[quote]But for some reason, some Pro-Pali nut (or a small handful of them) have been FF'ing me into fucking oblivion every time I comment on ANY Israel/Palestine thread in the last week or so. I was given my very first 48-hour time-out earlier in the week for no discernible reason other than I pissed off an extremely persistent DL antisemite. And now this?? Literally just for posting this letter?!

R73 I had the same, reported it as a fault because I couldnt figure out what the fuck was going on. Didnt last 48 hours though, Muriel to her credit sorted it in a couple of hours

Its likely Iranian backed/ funded trolls. (Possibly the same crowd as the Russian trolls, Boris is backing Iran/ Hamas) They get really really pissed off when you post facts, they dont like it at all

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by Anonymousreply 74May 11, 2024 7:26 PM

Asbestos Eyeballs fixes it, yes. But it does mean it got hit with a lot of FF

by Anonymousreply 75May 11, 2024 7:59 PM

R74 I am OP (and R73). Did as you said and I'm still not seeing myself greyed out. Can you see it? I noticed you were also greyed out about a 1/2 hour ago and now you're not. Did you contact Muriel to fix it?

You know, there are a lot of people here whose political opinions bother me very much too—but generally after trying to refute their claims with facts 3 or 4 times and realizing they have no intention of having an actual open dialog, I simply block them. I don't obsess over their demise to the point that I'm using handfuls of sock accounts just so I can delight in seeing them red tagged.

So yes, I agree it really must be bots. The demographics on this site skew older and politically moderate (therefore statistically pro-Israel). I just can't imagine there are enough rabidly pro-Palestinian humans here to be able to get someone timed or greyed out within hours of them posting something objectively uninflammatory simply because it's critical of Hamas.

by Anonymousreply 76May 11, 2024 8:02 PM

R70 Yes, there are many ways to be Jewish. There are over 15 million Jews and we're not a monolith. We're also notorious for disagreeing with each other...a lot.

That said, Judaism is a closed ethnoreligion. While it espouses universal values, it is not for everyone. It’s also not for everything. Communities and communal practices have boundaries, and at some point, things are so far outside the boundary of what is or isn’t Judaism that it just isn’t Judaism anymore.

At UCLA, for example, Jewish Voice for Peace held a “Seder,” which not only made a complete mockery of actual Seders (which Jews have held sacred for 3000 years), but also used backwards Hebrew inscriptions. Just about every Jewish person who remotely grew up in a Jewish community knows from a very young age that Hebrew is written right to left, even if they don’t speak Hebrew themselves. They also held Seders on nights of Passover when they are not meant to be held—literally something that even the most cursory google search would have educated them on. It seems strange and offensive that a group of people that are so far removed from the Jewish community that they couldn’t spot the backwards Hebrew would purport to speak for Jews.

In another incident, at a University of Michigan JVP pro-Palestine “encampment” Seder, they served challah. Jews do not eat leavened grains during Passover, and anyone with even a minimal Jewish education knows this. Of course, not all Jews are equally as observant, but for a Jewish organization to serve leavened grains at a Seder is inherently exclusionary to observant Jews, which speaks a lot to who is even attending these encampments in the first place.

These are just a couple of examples. I cannot imagine disrespecting, making a mockery of, and misappropriating another group’s sacred traditions like this…and calling it social justice.

The problem is not that these Jews at the encampments support Palestinians or care about the people of Gaza. The problem is that in their so-called “activism,” they are endangering their fellow Jews.

I don’t know how much more evidence we can show that these protests are filled with violence, incitement, harassment, and death threats against Jewish students who don’t fall in line. If your protest is only safe for Jews who say exactly what you want them to say, then your protest is not safe for Jews. Antisemitism is not a valid punishment for bad behavior or for political views you dislike. Antisemitism is a hateful, ancient bigotry that ultimately endangers all Jews…whether you like them or not.

These Jewish students at the encampments keep going to the media to rebuke accusations of antisemitism and gaslight other Jewish students about their experiences. Much like the Yevsetskiya or the Association of German National Jews, they use their Jewish identity as a cover for antisemitism. But we see through it, and it’s infuriating to many of us that you don’t see it too.

The students who composed and signed this letter do not claim to speak for every Jew in the world—they are simply speaking for the many, many hundreds of Jewish students at Columbia that share this same Jewish experience (which also happens to reflect the same views held by 80-97% of other American Jews regarding their connection to Israel, which polls have consistently showed). Also consider the fact that those signatures required students to sign their full names, graduation year, and major—an enormous risk to take considering Jewish students have been harrassed, threatened, and even assaulted on campuses lately just for being visibly Jewish and there. I suspect the number of signatures would have been in the thousands had they been allowed to sign anonymously.

by Anonymousreply 77May 11, 2024 8:28 PM

R70 I will also add that Messianic Jews (aka "Jews for Jesus") identify as Jews as well. A small number of them very well have actually been born Jewish, but the beliefs they are espousing and religious practices they are participating in are decidedly NOT Judaism. And like the "Anti-Zionist Jews", they are such a small minority, and so radically at odds with the actual tenets of Judaism and majority worldview of Jews that it would be equally ludicrous to hold them up as even remotely representative of the whole.

by Anonymousreply 78May 11, 2024 8:54 PM

^*may very well have actually been born Jewish

by Anonymousreply 79May 11, 2024 8:58 PM

[quote]At UCLA, for example, Jewish Voice for Peace held a “Seder,” which not only made a complete mockery of actual Seders (which Jews have held sacred for 3000 years), but also used backwards Hebrew inscriptions. Just about every Jewish person who remotely grew up in a Jewish community knows from a very young age that Hebrew is written right to left, even if they don’t speak Hebrew themselves. They also held Seders on nights of Passover when they are not meant to be held—literally something that even the most cursory google search would have educated them on. It seems strange and offensive that a group of people that are so far removed from the Jewish community that they couldn’t spot the backwards Hebrew would purport to speak for Jews.

[quote]In another incident, at a University of Michigan JVP pro-Palestine “encampment” Seder, they served challah. Jews do not eat leavened grains during Passover, and anyone with even a minimal Jewish education knows this. Of course, not all Jews are equally as observant, but for a Jewish organization to serve leavened grains at a Seder is inherently exclusionary to observant Jews, which speaks a lot to who is even attending these encampments in the first place.

JVP isn't a Jewish organization and their Jewish membership is questionable to say the least. Even the most secular of Jews know which way Hebrew is read or that bread is a no go on Passover. And if you are so secular as to not know those things, then odds are you aren't celebrating Passover, period, much less having seder. It's performative window dressing. It's cosplay "Jews" so they can deny their antisemitism.

by Anonymousreply 80May 11, 2024 9:04 PM

Hey, Jews for Jesus might be kind of culty, but they would NEVER serve unleavened bread at a Sedar, most of them are traditionally kosher.

You aren’t greyed out for me OP.

And let’s face it when people start talking about global Zionism. They might as well be talking about the international Jew and waving a copy of the protocols.

by Anonymousreply 81May 11, 2024 9:22 PM

Never serve LEAVENED bread

by Anonymousreply 82May 11, 2024 9:49 PM

R76 I didnt notice I was greyed out cos I was sleeping (shift worker) and never contacted Muriel. I think the timing of these things will relate to what time it is in Russia and Iran you'll find

Good to see sanity prevail here from at least the last few hours anyway

by Anonymousreply 83May 12, 2024 2:30 AM

For God's sake. The Datalounge is spewing more Hamas propaganda. GENOCIDE. 30,000 KILLED. Bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 84May 12, 2024 3:19 AM

[quote]Hamas propaganda

Yeah, it's sad and kind of eerie. Wouldn't have expected it here.

by Anonymousreply 85May 12, 2024 4:33 AM

[quote] Its likely Iranian backed/ funded trolls.

No, it’s just the rest of the whole world, finally sick of the bullshit and the emotional blackmail, and finally ready to tell you that you’re full of shit and the jig is up.

by Anonymousreply 86May 12, 2024 5:33 AM

It's a bunch of whiners who cannot abide people disagreeing with them.

by Anonymousreply 87May 12, 2024 5:37 AM

[quote] Modern terrorism was basically invented by Irgun and the Stern Gang, [R12] — Zionist criminal gangs who used it against the British for not immediately turning Palestine over to the Zionist invaders. Thr car bombing of the King David Hotel is the best known example.

Do tell.

[quote] The Fenian dynamite campaign (or Fenian bombing campaign) was a bombing campaign orchestrated by Irish republicans against the British Empire, between the years 1881 and 1885. The campaign was associated with Fenianism; that is to say the Irish revolutionary organisations which aimed to establish an independent Irish Republic; such as the Irish Republican Brotherhood, the Fenian Brotherhood, Clan na Gael and the United Irishmen of America. The campaign, led by Jeremiah O'Donovan Rossa and other Irishmen exiled in the United States, was a form of asymmetrical warfare and targeted infrastructure, government, military and police targets in Great Britain (particularly London). Over 80 people were injured in the attacks and one young boy was killed, as well as two of the bombers in the 1884 attack on London Bridge. The campaign led to the establishment of secret police group Special Branch (originally known as the Special Irish Branch)

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by Anonymousreply 88May 12, 2024 5:42 AM

[quote]JVP isn't a Jewish organization and their Jewish membership is questionable to say the least. Even the most secular of Jews know which way Hebrew is read or that bread is a no go on Passover. And if you are so secular as to not know those things, then odds are you aren't celebrating Passover, period, much less having seder. It's performative window dressing. It's cosplay "Jews" so they can deny their antisemitism.

R80 Thats what happens when you get your Seder from Wish!

Its currently 09:59 in Tehran and 09:29 in Moscow. And I see Boris in Moscow or Behrooz in Tehran is up and at em already. Gotta keep the mullahs happy!

by Anonymousreply 89May 12, 2024 6:32 AM

[quote]For God's sake. The Datalounge is spewing more Hamas propaganda. GENOCIDE. 30,000 KILLED. Bullshit.

Yup, total horseshit, figures pulled out their Hamarse. Biden doesnt believe their bullshit either to his great credit

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by Anonymousreply 90May 12, 2024 6:41 AM

It’s very disturbing this thread is greyed out R73. What happened on TikTok six months ago is starting to happen here and it’s pissing me off. And no, Hamas Hitler lovers, you are not winning the PR battle, nor are you going to win here.

by Anonymousreply 91May 12, 2024 1:18 PM

Actually R90 in a report issued last week the Biden admin repeated the figure of 35,000 killed. If they didn’t find it credible they wouldn’t have repeated it. You people are engaging in willful denial of civilian casualties in war. And you’re proud of it. You should read the report, and read between the lines, and maybe rethink your position if you’ve an ounce of humanity in you.

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by Anonymousreply 92May 14, 2024 10:32 AM

R92 Biden himself doesnt believe it. He is not a credulous fool, unlike some. Your own link admits the "evidence is incomplete" which given how Hamas actively tries to obscure the truth at all times is unsurprising

And the UN itself has revised its estimates of the number of civilian casualties, admitting that far more are combatants and less civilians.

Yes, there have been failures by the IDF themselves, where civilians have been targetted unnecessarily or in error. It'd be foolish to pretend they are perfect, but given that Hamas uses civilians as shields again its hardly surprising

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by Anonymousreply 93May 14, 2024 11:16 AM

Link to the UN revision of civilian casualty figures

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by Anonymousreply 94May 14, 2024 11:23 AM

R94 Oh good, 10,000 innocent children have died, not 20,000. That makes me feel so much better.

by Anonymousreply 95May 14, 2024 2:24 PM

R95 we killed more kids than that in just one week when we bombed Hamburg and Dresden during WWII

That's war for you. And even the Nazi's didnt sink to using their own civilian population as human shields like Hamas do

You seriously think Hamas wouldnt kill thousands of Jewish kids if they had the opportunity? Thats their stated intent in their constitution. They are the ones that actually WANT to commit a genocide

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by Anonymousreply 96May 14, 2024 2:35 PM

R96 I know it may be hard to process... but "we committed a horrific act" doesn't mean all horrific acts get a pass.

by Anonymousreply 97May 14, 2024 2:49 PM

What you mean is “only when the Jews do it” R97. Why don’t you antisemites just say what you mean? Because you’ll be exposed for the racists you really are.

by Anonymousreply 98May 14, 2024 4:34 PM

R97 You are incoherent, pookie.

What we did in Dresden was wrong. What Hamas did in October is wrong. What IDF is doing in Gaza is wrong.

It's pretty simple, really.

by Anonymousreply 99May 14, 2024 5:18 PM

^^ I meant R98

by Anonymousreply 100May 14, 2024 5:19 PM

Lol how is what we did in Dresden wrong, you deranged simpleton? Get help. Go to school. DO SOMETHING WITH YOUR LIFE you fucking Hamas loving nitwit.

by Anonymousreply 101May 14, 2024 7:04 PM

R101 quite so. I missed that stunning piece of idiocy. If we hadnt bombed the Nazis into submission in Hamburg, Dresden etc ..... they'd have won. Maybe that poster would have preferred that outcome

by Anonymousreply 102May 14, 2024 7:10 PM

Is v8fairy related to the Christchurch mosque shooter?

by Anonymousreply 103May 14, 2024 7:11 PM

Why is everyone so mean to each other!

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by Anonymousreply 104May 14, 2024 7:42 PM

History. It's your friend really (if seen without the filters we are addicted to). We did not need to fire bomb Dresden. We were winning the war. There was no need to kill 70,000 civilians there.

I am a pacifist, so yes, I think Hamas.... and the IDF... have committed horrible crimes. I am uncertain about the atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki... I think there is an argument that they prevented a US invasion in which hundreds of thousands could have been killed.

Fire bombing Dresden saved not one single life.

History. Your friend.

by Anonymousreply 105May 14, 2024 7:48 PM

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about, R105. And you’re a Hamas excuser and have been for months, and most likely a bot so anything you say is meaningless. I’ve blocked you before, and I’ll block you again.

by Anonymousreply 106May 15, 2024 10:47 PM

R93 your first link is from last October (if you need me to explain why it’s not relevant for this conversation, well…sigh) and your second link in R94 doesn’t do what you describe it to do. You have a habit of coming on here and flubbing about with declarations that don’t match the information you provide.

by Anonymousreply 107May 16, 2024 12:28 AM

v8fairy, you are a fucking idiot and you are the reason why everyone now hates Israel.

by Anonymousreply 108May 16, 2024 3:48 AM

R105, yes, we may well have been winning the war when we bombed Dresden - but the allies didnt know that for sure at the time. Its easy to say in hindsight that it wasnt necessary, but at the time Britain had been hanging on by a thread for months or years, and they were not going to risk pulling any punches. We also bombed several other cities, Hamburg in particular, with similar civilian casualties, and that was a big reason we won that war (but only barely)

by Anonymousreply 109May 16, 2024 4:08 AM

R108 So...when exactly WAS the time when everyone DIDN'T hate Israel? Or, you know, Jews in general? Was there some point time in history that's escaping me when Jews were universally trusted, respected, or even tolerated?

That is of course before v8fairy officially sullied their reputation...

by Anonymousreply 110May 16, 2024 5:50 AM

Anyway here’s video of Israeli protestors stopping aid trucks bound for Gaza and destroying aid. Thankfully they’re protesting in completely benign, peaceful and non violent way such that our zionoloungers will surely be happy.

And of course I know our esteemed pro Israeli trolls will also agree that actual starvation caused by famine and interrupted critical aid, is much less personally traumatic to the person suffering it than…..not being able to attend your graduation???

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by Anonymousreply 111May 16, 2024 9:50 AM

[quote] This will be settled in The Hague.

Told ya.

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by Anonymousreply 112May 20, 2024 1:52 PM
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