Let’s discuss the TV show Dallas, Part 2

In the first seasons, I thought Pam was so cool. Smart, beautiful, normal...among a lot of abnormal people.

I'm Brooks Oliver's caterpillar eyebrows!

I'm the opening credits that look like tanning reflectors. And Priscilla's earnest face. Bealiesu or whatever it was.

I'm Dack Rambo's stretched out hole.

I'm a sad-faced Miss Ellie.

I’ve been watching season 8 - it’s a fun and Pam looks soooo good.

^^^. **…it’s a fun one…***

Is it just me or does Pam have an entirely new hair style in every scene? I don't think I've ever seen the same hairdo twice.

R8 no she did. Unlike Linda Evans on Dynasty who inexplicably never changed hers for 9 years.

All the wig budget went to Ms. Collins. Linda Evans could only get two whereas Joan Collins must have had a dozen through her entire run.

I'm the aerial shot of Texas Stadium, with the hole in the roof through which God can watch the Cowboys lose.

I'm one of those cows.

Pamela Sue Martin hosted SNL; she played Linda in a scene and the woman playing Alexis quipped: "I know what your hair reminds me of -- cafe curtains!"

the woman playing Joan, I meant.

Dallas was basically Succession 0.0.

Don't you mean that Succession is a sad, drab, Dallas wanna-be?

To follow up -- I've been re-watching season 4 and it's jam-packed with big events! Who Shot JR reveal, Lucy's wedding, Takapa, Ray is a Ewing, Bobby losing control of Ewing Oil, JR overthrowing a government, the return of Dusty...and I'm probably forgetting some.

Any one of these events could/would be season-ending cliffhangers on today's little 8-episode "dramas." I'm staggered at just how much plot the Dallas writers are burning through and surprised that they didn't run out of steam and ideas much sooner than they did.

I'm JR, pretty much raping Sue Ellen and Holly Harwood.

I'm up to where Jock divides up the shares in Ewing Oil. I love this now probably overused plot device. Lucy is so stupid. John Ross gets 10 percent and she as the eldest and only other grandchild gets nothing. John Ross is two and she's like 22. All she says in the scene is, "What's all this mean?"

R17, didn't some episodes go for 29 or 31 episodes?

that's a lot; technically, I think Bobby gave up Ewing Oil at Lucy's wedding.

Great stuff.

Yesterday I watched season 1 episode 5 where Jock and Digger face off at the Ewing barbeque, Bobby appears in tiny running shorts AND wet from a shower, Sue Ellen begins her spiral of alcoholic messiness, and Pam loses her baby when drunk JR confronts her in the barn. It was excellent. And the original house had a cool gothic, rural majesty to it.

Jock is the one who stands out when you rewatch it as an adult. He was really good looking when he was younger. He also aged really well. fakeJock was the stupidest story during the entire run.

Victoria was great as Pam, the outsider heroine who takes on Lucy's problems, puts SueEllen in her place and wins the admiration of Miss Ellie. Then they sort of zoned her out to be a bubblehead when J.R.'s machinations took over. Pam should have stayed a spitfire.

I don't ever spit.

I’m OP, who has no sense of humor.

[quote] Don't you mean that Succession is a sad, drab, Dallas wanna-be?

Well, first of all, if anything Dallas was Succession 0.0 as Dallas came first.

But Dallas was really just a prime time soap opera on network teevee for the hoi polloi. Succession was *at least* two steps up.

I spent a summer in the UK in the mid 80s when the show was at its height and when people would hear my American accent they would ask me what was going to happen on Dallas. This annoyed me — as if Americans had secret awareness other people didn’t. But what really annoyed me was people assumed I watched it.

It wasn't secret awareness. The UK was always about two seasons behind.

Please! You were flattered that people in other countries assumed you had any special qualities because your country owned a worldwide blockbuster show.

Knowing stuff about a dumb show =/= “special qualities”

Why didn’t Lucy get any shares? Was it because she was female OR was it because she was Gary’s kid?

R30 It's because she was a midget. Gary gives her his voting proxy.

[quote]This annoyed me — as if Americans had secret awareness other people didn’t.

In fairness, most Americans believe it as well.

I'm the Tundra Torque! I was Pam's vibrator, such a hit I named a drill bit after it.

Lucy and Sue Ellen saw right through scheming bitches Kristin, Afton and Katherine.

They should have had lLucy buy the Oil Baron’s Club so she could be a snide cunt to JR when he showed up with one of his whores.

r20 here; didn't some SEASONS go to 29 or 30 episodes, I meant.

Yesterday I watched the two part season 2 opener "Reunion" where Lucy reunites Val and Gary, and they return to Southfork.

The essence of who Val and Gary were through the entirety of Knots was established in those two episodes. I wish I could see those scenes again with Ted Shackleford after he replaced David Ackroyd.

Good stuff.

Lucy always looked slightly chubby in clothes but she wasn’t because when in a swimsuit, she looked fine.

I couldn’t figure that out.

We all know it became a mega-hit in 1980 but it must have been popular enough beforehand to merit a spinoff. When did it start getting noticed and talked about?

R35 The season I'm watching now (4) has 23 episodes. The range seems to be anywhere from 23-28.

You bastard!

So I'm up to right before fake Jock shows up (not to be confused with when fake Jan shows up at Southfork). I'm not exactly counting but it seems like most of J.R.s schemes fail but through his family's help and sheer luck he always comes out singing I'm Still Standing by Elton John. Will this be the same for the rest of the seasons? Just give me a teaser.

In the later seasons, he keeps scheming and cheating, but his wins will be smaller and less often. It's another reason why the show flatlines in the last four seasons. His adversaries are becoming smarter, and he doesn't see it coming. At some point he outsmarts himself and he ends up in the looney bin. At that point the J.R. character is just a shadow of his former menacing self.

Season 4 (the season where JR’s shooter was revealed) was short because of a writer’s strike in 1980.

The ratings for the first five episodes were good-the show was in the top 15. During the next season, the show’s ratings were lousy (it ranked in the 40s ), until the show was moved to a new timeslot midseason, at which point the ratings shot up.

The next season (79-80),, the show entered the top 10 and stayed highly rated until Pam woke up from her dream.

I'm Katherine Wentworth THE biggest bitch to every appear on Dallas.

fakeJock was almost as bad as the dream.

I'm Mr. David, Sue Ellen's gay hairdresser!

R23 Victoria preferred Pam as a spitfire and with some edge. She lost interest in the show and character when they turned her into Saint Pam. This, along with the declining writing, is why she gave notice in 1985 that she was leaving in 1987. It should have ended in the spring of 1986. JR gets Ewing Oil to himself when Pam sells the shares to him and marries Mark. Everyone is more or less happy. Of course a rewrite of Sue Ellen and Jamie blowing up would’ve been needed. The show still has Victoria. No dream bullshit to accommodate Duffy’s return when he thought he was too big for the show, and found out no one wanted to hire him. No hillbillies, blonde bimbos, and stupid characters getting the best of JR. No horrible writing. None of the main cast leaving one after the other.

R47 How about instead of ending it in 1986, they hired some better writers, which would have kept the cast happy so they didn't depart one by one, and gave the audience 5 more excellent seasons? Bring Duffy back, if necessary (was it, though?), in a different way.

R48 in a perfect world. The audience wouldn’t have accepted Duffy as anyone but Bobby. It just would have been more compelling if he was brought back another way instead of a dream. He flatlined but we didn’t see his body in the casket. Any talented writing team can get around this. Basically you’re telling a huge audience the joke is on you, and you’ve wasted time and tears by watching a whole seasons worth of shows which never occurred in the Dallas universe. The audience started to lose interest at this point and jumped ship. Rule number 1 don’t insult the people that watch your show. Victoria picked the perfect time to get the hell out. Even with everything intact the viewers would’ve eventually dwindled off I think. With long running shows that stay on the air there’s always a decline. We got 8 great seasons with 9 and 10 a mixed bag.

Jamie Sommers flatlined. Oh yes she did. Just saying.

Discussion of TV’s DALLAS Part 2: Southfork Boogaloo

[quote] The audience started to lose interest at this point and jumped ship. Rule number 1 don’t insult the people that watch your show.

Thank God we never did anything as off-putting and ridiculous as a dream season!

As a resident, I’m shocked at the interest.

[quote] they hired some better writers, which would have kept the cast happy so they didn't depart one by one, and gave the audience 5 more excellent seasons?

It wasn't just poor writing that made them leave. Some actors were let go because the show became too expensive. Hagman and Duffy could get what they wanted, but the other ones needed to go. They needed to let seasoned actors go and bring in new actors with more grounded base salaries.

These Dallas threads have convinced me. It's time to rewatch the entire series. Haven't done that in about 20 years, if not 25.

I'm CockTails, the shady bar where JR meets Walt Driscoll. Was I a gay bar?

I'm Aunt Lil, not wanting to put anyone out. Bitch it's just a cup of Donna's shitty Mr. Coffee sludge. It ain't no trouble.

I'm Donna's defective pussy.

I'm Donna and Ray's house. There is no kitchen. We never make breakfast and just show up unannounced and uninvited at Southfork every morning because we're too cheap to spring for our own instant scrambled eggs.

Beg pard' but we had a hot plate, grill, and a root cellar.

In response to r59's part, I am any door in Ray's house or Southfork. We are never locked; everybody is welcome to just enter. I am not the doors in Pam's house or Cliff's condo. People always have to wait there to be let in.

That’s because the Barnes family were poor trash living in the slums of Dallas, so they knew they had to lock the doors.

Rich bitches like Donna and Miss Ellie were accustomed to having staff open their doors opened by the help; even though Donna moved into Ray’s dirt floor shack, she was used to living in an estate in Turtle Creek prior to that.

I am Lucas Ewing. Yes, you read that right. In the next Dallas reboot (you know it'll happen eventually), I will come to Dallas and claim my birthright and my inheritance. I am true evil, unlike my gullible old father. John Ross won't have a quiet minute anymore. Have you ever wondered why Christopher was killed by that bomb under the car? Hmmm...

I'm the CHiPs-esque car crash with drunkard Sue Ellen and Mickey. That car rolled over several times and was flattened like a pancake, just coming out of the Southfork driveway.

It took us over a year, but we finished all seasons of the original series, the made-for-TV movies, and the TNT episodes.

We came to hate Miss Ellie, what a dumpy, pointless, whiny, always-wrong relic. Donna Reed was far more believable as a monied Dallas matriarch.

It was truly great in the beginning.

Donna Reed was better but I preferred OGMiss Ellie. Donna added some color. Literally.

[quote]Donna Reed was far more believable as a monied Dallas matriarch.

The Southworths came from cattle money, not oil money. They worked the land, they didn't drill oil wells. Bel Geddes was more believable in that role, given that background.

I can't fathom why the producers or a director didn't show Donna the 'Ray, get me the shotgun' scene.

She might have played it differently. Nancy Olson from Paper Dolls might have been a good replacement; ironically, she's still alive as is Priscilla Pointer.

I've suggested this before but all they had to do was have Katherine kidnap Bobby from the hospital and fake their deaths.

Pam and Mark marry in finale, they go to Europe for a honeymoon; Mark has to take a business meeting which Pam IS FINE WITH BECAUSE THERE'S NO BIG PASSION in their lives.

She goes out shopping and across a crowded street she sees Bobby! He does not see her. Freeze frame on Pam.

Pick up the next season, Bobby has no memory of who he is. Pam fights to find him, finding an ally in Miss Ellie.

They're reunited; Mark's heart breaks; Jack and Jenna find love and leave town.

In 2000 I was on business in Ukraine. All over Kiev there were billboards with Larry Hagman as JR. The show hadn't been on for almost a decade in the US.

I'm Ray's shirt he never wears when chopping wood.

I'm Miss Ellie's glass menagerie

I'm Jock's no doubt

HUGE COCK that Miss Ellie worships 🍆

Our family would watch Dallas every Friday night.

One time, JR walked out to the outdoor breakfast table during the battle for Ewing Oil; Miss Ellie chided JR: "JR, I hear you're pumping at full capacity."

My siblings didn't bat an eye; I looked over at my mom and she's beet red, trying not to laugh.

Whenever Miss Ellie or anyone would call Jock by his name..."Jock..." my brother would snark out "STRAP!"

I'm Falcon Crest, and forever grateful for that cushy timeslot. Without it we would never have gone past the initial 13 episode order.

Falcon Crest was so fucking boring.

I thought Falcon Crest seasons 2-5 were pretty good, but yes it definitely benefited from the Dallas lead in. Still snarky characters like Angela, Richard, Terry made it fun.

How dare anyone blaspheme Falcon Crest! On another note Lucy's modeling agent is Laura Palmer's father. Spoiler alert. He ends up murdering her. Laura not Lucy.

R74- and being the little gay boy that you were you would blurt out

COCK

ANGELA WORE DEPENDS!

I remember that news anchor on Channel 2 New York- He was hot.

Sue Ellen was so pretty like in this episode from November 1980 before she transformed herself 2 years later with that FUCKIN UGLY hairstyle that she got in the hospital hair salon apparently while visiting Cliff Barnes who had just tried to kill himself.

[quote]He ends up murdering her. Laura not Lucy.

Damn it. You had me going there for a minute.

[quote] He ends up murdering her. Laura not Lucy.

Unfortunately.

That would have been a good story-line. If I were the writer I would have had it be Miss Ellie. She was having flashbacks of walking in a Jock and Lucy fucking after having suppressed it for years.

[quote]Miss Ellie. . . was having flashbacks of walking in a Jock

Pics please.

Now do it in Miss Ellie twang while collapsing, crying into Bobby's arms: "I dropped my purse when I saw. I caught their attention. Then she just stood there. Naked as the day she was born. Laughing at me. Just laughing. The two of them. I'd forgotten all about it. Until recently. I couldn't take it anymore. Every time I saw her just made me sick. In my bed. There they were in my wedding bed. Where I conceived his children. I just couldn't. Oh Bobby what am I going to do? I killed my own flesh and blood. Your father made me a murderer."

A slightly drunk Sue Ellen breathes a sigh of relieve. She, of course, was the number one suspect. As usual. The police were there to cuff her not Miss Ellie. Miss Ellie's better angel wouldn't let them arrest Sue Ellen. Ray convinces the police not to cuff Miss Ellie as they take her to the station. Stay tuned to next season.

The cast in March. Scroll down to see the pic of all the Dallas attendees, many of whom I don't recognize. But if that's Marilee Stone in the hat in the front row, she aged well!

R88 Not gonna lie, I'd love the opportunity to have my picture taken in front of that set-up with the bar and the Jock painting. That is definitely Marilee Stone in the front row, and Leigh McCloskey as Mitch to her left. I think the woman in the floral shirt is one of the Ewing secretaries, but the name escapes me.

At any rate,what a display of horrid plastic surgery!

Im the fancy house dress Miss Ellie wears to the Oil Barons Ball

The one next to Mitch is April Stevens. Marilee is red dress with hat, no? Linda Gray looks good, so does Charlene Tilton.. Joan Van Ark and the actress who played Jaime Ewing, oh boy. What hath time wrought?

John Ross is too thin. Christopher unrecognizable.

Oops, in the big cast photo I mistook Linda Gray for Marilee. Shame on me, but they have similar jawlines and it's low-res image.

R89, that looked like Bobby's secretary Phyllis.

It made no sense for ME to update her home, patios, furniture and china through the years, but still dress in potato sacks for, and in, Dallas society?

To be fair, the frumpier the character, the less BBG had to act. She only had three notes: cry and simper, cunt, and BAD-TAKE mentor. By the time she got to the last seasons and put on a little makeup, it looked amateur and jarring. Just wrong.

Donna Reed, on the other hand, always looked showered and put together--like she just took a break from running lemonade out to the hands in order to order a purty from the N-M catalogue. And her affection for Clay, coupled with a cold indifference to the family fighting, felt more right for where the character should have been.

I guess after seven seasons of having BBG simper "Stop it, stop it!" it was too late to give that one a backbone.

Jim Davis said it best in one of the bloopers with BBG: "Goddamned old CUNT."

Interesting story about Reed: Several episodes into her season, producers called a meeting to upbraid the crew for lighting her with 'monster lighting" (severe overhead lights that aged her face with harsh shadows) and ordered them to knock it off and light her properly. Larry Hagman was a ring-leader, very anti-Reed, and wanted ME to go back to being a hag. He said he didn't like the "fancy" direction the production was taking--clearly talking about Reed, because the sets continued to get bigger and more lush, and everyone else's clothing continued to get fancy. All except for ME (by then BBG again), whose clothing got baggier and frumpier.

Oh, in the last couple of seasons they also cheaped out on the cars. Another small quibble: WHY did they never give Ray a front door??

And if you're watching the first couple of full seasons, keep an eye out for the top of the background canvas when they're filming on the outdoor studio set. We looked at each other like "Did you just see those lights sitting on top of the sky??"

[quote] WHY did they never give Ray a front door??

Because he was a dumb cowboy who built the house. He didn't know what he was doing.

[quote] WHY did they never give Ray a front door??

Because Ray was all about the back door

R88 - Was Joan Van Ark invited to this thing, or did she just happen to wandering around and stumbled upon the convention?

Thanks for posting that, r88!

Not sure I recognize everybody. I thought next to Fern Fitzgerald/Marilee Stone that was Victoria Principal. But it's Leigh Taylor-Young, I think. Who is the woman behind Joan Van Arc? She looks free of any plastic surgery, so maybe she is not an actress?

R94 you clearly don’t understand the ME character. She was a ranchers daughter and really didn’t care about designer clothes and material things, except when she went out to the Oil Barons Ball, dinner, or a public family function. If you Google BBG Dallas some of her gowns were beautiful and rivaled Donnas. Donna changed the character and was smart not to copy BBG, but she wasn’t right for the role. Howard Keel said himself Donna was too pretty and polished for the role. BBG saw the show through its glory years and became the matriarch off stage as well as on, plus played the part with an edge and grit Donna lacked. BBG also had heart issues beginning in 1982, and smoked like a chimney, so i think the sack dresses were maybe used to cover up the weight gain from some of the meds she was probably on.

They wanted Lucy to play Miss Ellie but Gary talked her out of it.

[quote]Donna Reed, on the other hand, always looked showered and put together-

Can you really see Donna Reed as a down to Earth rancher's daughter? Can you see her chasing Jock with a whip when he wouldn't commit to marrying her? Can you see HER telling Ray to get the shotgun?

R101, you’re kind of describing my Mom. Depression-era scrappy, ranch-to -Dallas. The city polishes a lot of edges. But the scrappy and pragmatic never went away.

I actually WOULD have liked to see what academy award-winning actress Reed could have done with any of that.

Again, just my opinion. We liked Reed better.

I'm Harry McSween's loud plaid jackets!

Maybe not all those things R101 but I bet she knew where to score the valium in a pinch.

R102 Bel Geddes won an Emmy as ME. As well as a multiple Tony nominee and received an Oscar nomination. She was no slouch in the acting department.

Reed wasn't bad, not even as Miss Ellie. But casting her against type of an established character was daunting. Had she been Miss Ellies sister, nobody would have had a problem with her. The other thing was the writing. She had nothing to do. She was written very reactive. I think the only actual story line Reed's Miss Ellie was given was that damn Jock portrait that made Clayton feel unwelcome. Then came the dream season with Miss Ellie having to mourn, keep the family together, support Pam, fend off Jeremy Wendell etc.

Wasn't part of the problem that Reed was somewhat typecast as the perfect 1950s TV housewife, and Dallas was a long way from there. Bel Geddes wasn't strongly associated with any particular past role, let alone one that was so antithetical to a steamy, tawdry melodrama.

Before Barbara Bel Geddes had heart surgery, Miss Ellie wore more tailored dresses and skirts-she wore a lot of twinsets. Everything she wore looked like old money. She wore pants sometimes but mostly twinsets and skirts.

The sack dresses/muu muus really began to appear when she returned in season 7 from surgery.

This blog did recaps and analyses of Dallas episodes, until he stopped during the dream season. The gown Miss Ellie wore to the Oil Baron’s Ball that season weighed 20 lbs!

I love Dallas Decoder. His reviews are pretty insightful. I'd say it's the best fan site for any of the 80s soaps. Falcon Crest has a good fan site, too. But its episode reviews are not that smart or skilled.

If anyone has other great fan sites for 80s soaps with reviews, please post.

R106 agreed. Her two big scenes were taking down Jocks picture and when Bobby flatlined at his dream death. I think she did fine, but the character by and large wasn’t needed this season. Donna said when she was cast she wanted a scene where she could back JR up against the wall, similar to the material Barbara was given and her showdowns with JR, but alas she never got them. Barbara left the show in a salary dispute, not the usual poor health excuse they told the press. She wanted more money, and a reduced work schedule, since she was still recuperating from heart surgery, but the producers balked. They could’ve easily scripted her out of the show, or gave her the season, or most of it, off, and avoided the whole Donna Reed firing fiasco.

Poor Donna was more than likely a gambit the producers took to scare BBG back to the bargaining table. Donna probably never had a chance and deserved a lot better than getting played. I imagine it was an awful experience behind the scenes for her, and then the embarrassment of being so publicly fired.

R111 so true. They treated her like shit, all because she wasn’t Barbara. I’m sure the stress of the situation exacerbated her pancreatic cancer which she died of. Only Susan Howard from the show attended her funeral. Reportedly Barbara saw Donna on screen and called up the producers and told them I wanna come back. Larry has said he would’ve gotten Barbara what she wanted because of the clout he had, but found out after the negotiations with Barbara fell through that the show was moving on without her. Donna really believed the role was hers permanently. But with Duffy and Tilton leaving, I can’t blame them for wanting as many of the original actors on set. They were able to overcome the death of Jim Davis by keeping his memory alive via the fight for Ewing Oil and Larry taking over the show, but the Barbara Donna ME thing was one of the first death by 1000 cuts that was leading to the deterioration of the show.

Those assholes over at Knots Landing didn't try to pull that shit with me. I would've kicked Miss Julie Harris right in the cunt bone!

they should have brought in that walton lady as miss nelllie

Yes, Ellen Colby would have been a good choice.

The show needed an uppity black maid, maybe Pearl Bailey? Imagine her zingers to JR and Sue Ellen? She would have kept Lucy in line, too.

"She's just like your Mama -- another drunken slut who ran away."

Damn, the season finale of Season 4 is bringing it.

Was Dora Mae, the hostess at the Oil Baron's Club, the only black character on Dallas?

What was with Kristen and all the orange peels? Are oranges some sign of drug addiction?

Speaking of the Season Finale of Season 4, it would have been interesting had we actually seen (later on) what took place between JR and Kristen before her “accident”.

Maybe the writers intended it to be JR causing her fall but were unable to at the time due to censors?

I still say he did it.

If they wanted to show J.R. killing her, I don't see where the censors would have an issue with that. They had no problems showing Julie Gray's death two years before that.

If I remember correctly, Kristen, Pam and Sue Ellen are all wearing similar black and white outfits in the finale. I think they wanted the viewer to think that Sue Ellen and Pam were in jeopardy.

I wonder how much of the cliffhanger was rewritten at the last minute because of Jim Davis’ illness. He says 2 lines from the backseat of a limo in the previous episode, and that was his last appearance.

They should have called in Ann B. Davis.

I think they knew for the most part of his last season that he was dying. Katzman said that he showed him a made-up outline of the next season that still included him just to make him feel better. But they knew even he did not. And I could see that the uncertainty of the WHEN may have been a challenge for the next season's bible.

But the handling of Kristin's demise in the next season was kinda weird and eventually pointless. So she was dead in the pool, and Cliff and J.R. accused each other of having killed her. And eventually it was ruled an accident. That was lame and could have been handled with some more exciting stuff. Did that coincide with Falcon Crest's Who Killed Carlo Agretti season? Maybe CBS intervened and didn't want two shows back-to-back with the same story line. And then there was the Who-killed-Ciji?-season on Knots Landing. I may get the years crossed.

A good murder mystery WITH trial always jazzes up a soap. ABC daytime understood this an they were great at it.

R121, I meant maybe producers ( ok, not so much the censors) backing away from JR actually killing somebody. As R125 said, it was handled very anti-climactically.

And why did they back away from having Christopher be JRs? That would have been a really great thread for the rest of the series.

I agree that the Kristin death explanation was totally lame, that she was hopped up on PCP and thought she could fly. A JR murder trial would've been a much better storyline.

[quote] If I remember correctly, Kristen, Pam and Sue Ellen are all wearing similar black and white outfits in the finale. I think they wanted the viewer to think that Sue Ellen and Pam were in jeopardy.

If memory serves, it was Sue Ellen who Cliff pulled out of the water. She was floating face down and he flips her over in a nanosecond, but if you look close it's Linda Gray. Then it was reshot for the season opener with Mary Crosby. They were definitely leaning into our thinking it was Sue Ellen or maybe Pam.

Cliff would have had a stronger initial reaction if it had been Pam or Sue Ellen in the pool; his focus on was JR -- I knew it had ti be Kristen.

I thought it was Sue Ellen. Miss Ellie told her she filled the pool with vodka. It was a prank gone terribly wrong.

Kristin Shepard died at the end of the 1980-81 season. “Falcon Crest” had not premiered yet. The Carlo Agretti murder story was in the 1982-83 season as was the murder of Ciji on “Knots Landing”.

Look at the broken railing and then the distance between the pool and the porch on the house. If Kristin's fall broke that railing, her body would have landed on the pool deck, not in the water, the force expended on breaking the bannister would have reduced the trajectory of the body. Also in the long shot when Cliff's car arrives, the balcony rail doesn't appear broken, does it? I mean, yes, dramatic license but it always bugged me.

Thanks for clarifying that, R131!

I'm on Season 7--Cliff is a total dumbass schmuck for falling for JR's offshore drilling scheme. And getting set up again by Marilee Stone. What a fool, he deserved to be destroyed by JR.

On the DVD I had, there was no sound in the scene when Sue Ellen catches JR with Holly Harwood. It made it very dramatic but was there a non-licensed song originally in that scene? Does anybody remember?

Never understood the regard for Miss Ellie. In the first season, she just sits back while Lucy skips school, fully aware of it and just comments that Lucy won’t graduate if she doesn’t attend.

And despite her “backbone”, Jock and JR always ran right over her and did what they pleased.

R61, I liked Cliff’s house and I LOVED Pam’s house circa season 8.

Did we ever see inside Pam’s house? Seems like they were always in the front of the house or outback by the pool.

Pam's house was inherited from Rebecca Wentworth, filled with lots of antiques. Very classy.

I just started rewatching the dream season. In one of the early episodes, Jack goes sports car shopping with Jamie. The camera lingers briefly as he looks at a red Mercedes SL identical to Bobby’s convertible, then he moves to another car. Were they trying to position him as Bobby’s replacement?

Also, Jenna’s story arc in the dream season doesn’t work, because Priscilla Presley is a terrible actress. She starts the season being stoic about Bobby’s death; then she flirts with Jack; then she turns into a basketcase. Jenna is the only female character who regresses in the dream season.

They did have few scenes inside her house. In those weeks when they filmed on location they filmed pool scenes outside. When the crew was back filming in LA there were fewer scenes at Pam's, but then they were inside. Her downstairs interior was so much more elegant than Southfork. They may have filmed those scenes in an actual mansion. Hard to believe that she moved back to that mischpoche into that Southfork trash house.

R139 the idea was for Rambo to be Bobby’s replacement. They were setting that up, and it’s no coincidence he saved Ewing Oil, right before Bobby dreamed died. That would mean JR would always be grateful and form a bond with Jack. But of course we know how that turned out when Duffy came back. Larry reportedly hated Dack, so his days were numbered during season 10. Plus there was no use for the character when Duffy returned. Presley was ok as Jenna, but the dream season should’ve been her last. Pam wakes up, and Bobby and her realize Jenna left town. I hated the pairing with Ray. But Presley eventually quit so it worked out for the character but unfortunately Ray had to go to. Kanaly didn’t want to leave.

Who is the blond woman standing behind Charlene Tilton?

She played one of the secretaries Kendall.

Thanks, R143!

[quote] She played one of the secretaries Kendall.

And apparently she is still wearing that same wig.

Some dialogue from season. 8:

Jenna is awaiting trial for the murder of her ex-husband (Daniel Pilon with the worst accent).

Donna enters the Souhfork kitchen and sees Jenna baking about 22 loaves of her father’s famous split-top wheat bread. Jenna, distracted, drops a hot loaf.

Donna: Jenna, is something wrong? Jenna: (solemnly) yes, I’m afraid I’m going to go to jail.

Later on:

Bobby enters their bedroom and speaks to Jenna.

Bobby: I just checked in on Charlie. She seems depressed.

Of course she’s depressed! Her new found fake Italian papa, the one who gave her the biggest cameo pin even on television, kidnapped and tried to rape her mom while sending her off, also kidnapped, with his ex-lover.

I thought Daniel Pilon was so hot.

Priscilla Presley was just the worst actress.

R148, I agree. There were a few actor proof moments she was okay and even pretty good in.

She had Katherine's number from the beginning when Katherine showed up at the bar to try to size up Jenna; Jenna said that Pam has to worry about more than her (Jenna).

The mechanical bull scenes where Pam said "I am a tough act to follow!" and Jenna just shrugged "We'll see."

Last, she gave Bobby up after Lucy's wedding; I liked her with Jack in the dream season. Other than that? No, I had no investment in her.

If they had made Jenna a raging, nasty, manipulative cunt it would have been better. The show already had to many ladies who lunch.

Priscilla Pointer turned 100 today.

Victoria Principal posted on Instagram about it.

Morgan Birttany gave an interview to one of the soap sites.

Bobby scooped up John Ross in his arms and jumped into the pool during the fire that JR and Ray's fight caused.

I'm sure a stunt 'baby' was used but how cool that might have been in real life; scooped up in Patrick's strong arms and carried to safety.

Splash!

It would have been better if JR threw the baby through the window so he could escape.

It would have been better if JR used the baby like a battering ram to break through the window.

Victoria Principal has posted a very sweet happy 100th birthday to her Dallas mama, Priscilla Pointer.

100 year old Pointer looks healthier and more natural than 90 year old Principal.

As I recall, Jenna (when played I think by Morgan Fairchild) was a hard as nails, spoiled Daddy's girl bitch. Presley's character was written as Pam lite, perpetual damsel in distress. And then Presley was more a repeater of sentences from a script than an actress. Dallas might have benefited from an Alexis Carrington across the canvas bitch character. Sue Ellen and Lucy were randomly cranky (and Sue Ellen was rightly locked in a permabattle with JR), so they couldn't really do it. They tried to bring in various bitches but you needed a troublemaker with a tie and access to the family. I'm sure I've read how Dallas was a man's show and it shows with the women, who had nothing to do but suffer for the most part, when women with an axe to grind are far more interesting characters. When you think about it, while fun to watch, JR and Bobby were pretty one notes who did the same thing constantly. They drove action, but they weren't interesting.

Though it was stunt casting, and it showed, if they put some thought into Barbara Eden was a great nemesis to JR. They just seemed lazy with their approach to her character. Even with a minimal effort she fit in and clicked pretty nicely.

Barbara Eden worked because she had a friendship with Larry Hagman outside the show.

Anyone not close to him wasn’t going to be allowed to share the spotlight from the Ewing brothers.

William Smithers played Jeremy Wendell. According to Smithers, the producers approached him and wanted to expand the character and make him a full time cast member in season 12. Hagman didn’t like the idea, and “helped” Smithers by suggesting his agents negotiate for a salary he knew the producers wouldn’t pay. Talks broke down; Jeremy was written out; and we got Carter McKay as the Ewing Brothers’ new nemesis.

Rebecca should have stayed and been that bitchy Alexis like character.

I heard a contrary story about Smithers and Hagman. Smithers was on a Hollywood black list for years. I think because he became a nuisance when he was very vocal about increasing peoples' salaries in the TV business. Hagman was the one who got him back to business by landing him the Jeremy Wendell role. By the time Wendell was written out pretty much the entire cartel had been removed, too, because everything but Hagman and Duffy had become too expensive. They only kept the secretaries because they were advised to never ask for a raise if they wanted to keep this gig.

Smithers was awesome as Wendell. Along with Eden. Two of the few bright spots in the horrible seasons post Victoria. The show became such a joke in these years. Morgan Brittany should’ve been added back to the cast in the latter seasons. R157 is right. The show needed a true cunt. Her Katherine character I always felt never realized its potential. April started out promising, but was watered down to make her another mate for Bobby.

I agree, Katherine was the Alexis nasty bitch that would've been more interesting. Instead, most of the women were doormats.

And notice how many of the psycho killers were women-Kristin, Clayton's sister, and Katherine. A bit of misogyny there?

I don't remember her cast name but when Barbara did her reveal on who she was and why she was there, was one of the best scenes in Dallas history.

Dallas is nothing but misogyny.

Look at how women like Pam, Donna and Lucy are attacked by their partners for working.

When women make it to the top in business like Holly Harwood or Marilee Stone, it is made clear that they only have their position because it was inherited. They’re also depicted as sexually voracious and “thinking like a man.”

The most important parental/child relationship on the show is between fathers and their children, not mothers and their children.

All of the mothers, except Donna (and the only reason she isn’t on this list is because she was written off the show shortly after giving birth), are terrible:

Sue Ellen jeopardizes the health of John Ross by drinking to excess during her pregnancy. She then spends her time on the show using her son as a pawn in her fight with JR; or ignoring him in favor of drinking or fucking other men.

Rebecca abandons Cliff and Pam and leaves them with a drunken murderer. The child she does raise turns out to be evil.

Pam abandons Christopher right after telling him he’s adopted.

Jenna plays games for years with Bobby and Naldo, trying not to reveal Charlie’s paternity and confusing her daughter.

Val abandons Lucy as a baby. When she moves to California, she only sees Lucy once more.

Miss Ellie cedes control of JR as a small child to Jock, who turns him into JR.

R164, great breakdown, thanks for the post.

I don’t remember the last part (Miss Ellie ceding young JR). Was that discussed early in the show?

PS, R164, I’m watching season 8 (maybe 2/3 through the season) and am appalled at how Ray treats Donna. How dare he make me empathize with Donna!

When the family forces JR to commit a pregnant Sue Ellen to a sanitarium, Miss Ellie confronts him and tells him she stopped “interfering “in his life as a child. When he leaves the room, she says “I gave you up too soon.”

She makes several statements to Jock over the next few seasons that blame him for how JR turned out-for example, when JR mortgages Southfork. She tells Clayton later on that JR would go off with Jock as a little boy to work in the oil fields, trying to garner his respect.

Thank you, R64!

Val didn’t abandon Lucy. JR sent his good old boys after her and forcibly took Lucy from her and threatened her if she ever tried to see Lucy. Val was an impoverished teen who had no recourse.

Lucy herself tells this story to Pam in the first episode and we see it happen in the first season episode of “Knots” when Lilimae is introduced.

Plus, Gary and Val attended Lucy’s wedding. We just only saw Lucy once on “Knots”.

Val barely spoke about Lucy after she moved to Knots. Lucy says several times after her wedding to Mitch that her mother is in California and they rarely speak.

To be fair a little bit of Lucy goes a long way.

The men of Dallas are not exactly prizes either. Jock, J.R. and Ray are all adulterers. J.R.'s shady practices brought John Ross in harms way when BD Calhoun kidnapped him. Cliff is a greedy weasel. I'm not saying that women were treated equal or fairly, but in terms of ethics and moral compass they usually came out better than the guys.

One little overlooked detail: The way I see it, Bobby fathered Lucas right before he proposed to Pam again. Jenna gets out of prison. They have a party at the Oil Baron's Club, then Lucy's and Mitch's wedding. And somewhere in between he knocks her up, only to propose to Pam a day later.

All the men on all the night time soaps were cads. That's why you tuned in. You didn't tune in to watch them come home and help with the dishes.

R172 when did Ray cheat on Donna? And it was never explicit that Jock cheated, only implied.

R163, that was an amazing scene; I had stopped viewing Dallas regularly at this point. But damn, Eden was more than stunt casting! Brava!

R174, Ray cheated on Donna with Bonnie; who in real life is married to Parker the man left t the altar by Verna/Valene over on KNOTS.

[quote] All the men on all the night time soaps were cads. That's why you tuned in. You didn't tune in to watch them come home and help with the dishes.

Not all of them. Sid and Ben on Knots, and Jeff on Dynasty, were all relatively good and honorable men. And on Dallas, wasn't Bobby the moral compass of the show being the perpetual white knight?

Blake Carrington turned from being a hard ass with anger issues into a devoted family man and got boring as a bag of hammers.

Jock cheated when he fathered Ray. And Ray also cheated on Jenna when she was dropping off Charlie in a landfill, I mean in a boarding school in Switzerland.

The three most egregious errors on Dallas were Bobby in the shower; FIND ANOTHER WAY!

Ray and Jenna being paired.

The way Pam was written out.

Dallas was must-see TV from the start through the opening of the shower door. Then...it all went to dust.

R175 178 thanks I had forgotten.

And don't forget that Ray fucked teenage Lucy early on, never to be spoken of again.

R179 I don’t think Ray Jenna were a top three, but it was an awful pairing. The problem with Victoria was the producers, particularly Katzman, and or writers didn’t know she was leaving. Or at the very least had forgotten. So they tacked on the tanker truck crash last minute. Instead of a well thought out exit, like Pam and Bobby’s marriage deteriorating once again, with JRs shenanigans and Bobby defending him. Pam has had enough, feels Christopher is unsafe at Southfork, and leaves Dallas and divorces Bobby with their son. It opened a whole can of worms, with her leaving Dallas because of her burns, but Bobby turning into an asshole and not pursuing her. Then she reveals she’s dying, but Cliff and Bobby never learn this. Such a horrible end to Pam.

Ray fucked Sue Ellen too. It was a one night stand. The only Ewing woman he didn’t fuck was Miss Ellie.

One of the worst things they did was the disrespect shown to Linda Gray and the character of Sue Ellen.

Gray is great and got an Emmy nomination for her alkie stint, and all her dysfunction, in the early 80s. Eventually she wanted to move Sue Ellen beyond this which is understandable. As Sue Ellen became fully independent and well, in her final years on the show, the character became less fun however.

Oh, the hilarity of the badly lip synced song Lucy performs in a bar when she's being held at gunpoint by sexy Greg Evigan! It's laughable that terrified, weepy, teenage Lucy gets up there and belts out this country song with confidence and a smile, sounding like a seasoned Grand Ole Opry pro!

Why were all the Lucy centric stories so bad?!

Because Charlene was a shitty actress.

R187 That's true, but it went beyond that. The actual stories for her were shitty, too. A better actress may have been able to elevate them, I guess.

[quote] Ray fucked Sue Ellen too. It was a one night stand. The only Ewing woman he didn’t fuck was Miss Ellie.

You'd be surprised!

Priscilla Pointer, who played Pam and Cliff's and Katherine's mother Rebecca Barnes Wentworth, turned 100 this week.

She was also in "Mommie Dearest," "Carrie," and "Blue Velvet," and she's the mother of actress and multimillionaire divorcée Amy Irving.

Linda Gray was Heather Locklear’s character’s mother on Melrose Place.

[quote] Ray fucked Sue Ellen too. It was a one night stand. The only Ewing woman he didn’t fuck was Miss Ellie.

Ray, get me the diaphragm from the hall closet!

R88- Bobby looks MUMMIFIED.

R186- Roger the photographer was so dumpy and unappealing but I liked that storyline. Bobby and Pam rescue her.

R194 I was actually talking about an earlier episode, when Lucy runs away on her birthday because Jock won't allow her mother to come to her party. She steals J.R.'s car, then ditches it when the cops spot it .

Hitchhikes, gets in a van with sexy Greg Evigan (dumb, but I'd have been tempted too) who thinks she's a criminal like him, and he goes on a robbing spree and won't let her go. He makes her sing in a contest in a bar for a $100 prize while he robs it.

Bobby rescues her in the end.

Again I think the bad writing was that the entire show had no interest in the women except as plot devices for the men. Back in S1 when Succession was going to be a different show I think the plan was to kill off Logan and, with the family still in majority control, make the family trust the dynamic because Marcia would have held a significant position in terms of voting. Dallas could have done something with the idea that various family members held various positions, even, say, Miss Ellie (after Jock's death) holding control over a block of stock set aside for future grandchildren. I think they toyed with it from time to time - pretty sure I remember a family vote where JR got the boot - but it wasn't much of a driver of intra-family tension.

R196- There's an episode from 1981- one of the last episodes Jock appears in- he refers to Leslie Stewart as an uppity broad or bitch.

R190- She was so good on Dallas and she appeared in Mommie Dearest- she can do NO wrong in my gay eyes.

Well, let's not forget this was Texas in the 70's & 80's. The attitudes they were depicting toward women were actually pretty spot on for the era and location. Doesn't make it right, and it cleary says more about the producers and writers than anything, but a case could be made that they were reflecting the times.

R198 plus “Carrie” AND “Blue Velvet”? That’s impressive.

I would have gotten into a cage for Greg Evigan.

[quote] he goes on a robbing spree and won't let her go.

You say this like it's a bad thing.

Lucy was good as Lucy the spoiled grandchild and the smart aleck teenager/semi vixen. Her own storylines were lame and I agree she didn't bring much to them.

R197, she was.

This is a MARY! post, but I always related to the Pam and Cliff, sister-brother relationship. I too had messed up alkie/absentee parents and hqe q a very close relationship with my sister. Even with their ups and downs, they always came back together and supported each other.

I just found Ken Kercheval a one note... whiny, not very handsome, wimpy. Even when he was winning he came across like a loser. He wasn't a rival to JR, he was a pest. And Dallas wasn't well enough written to claim that's what they were going for.

I'll drink to that r200.

R206, I think Cliff's character was indeed written that way. He was supposed to be a whipping boy for Larry Hagman's character, not a true rival. The drama wasn't about the possibility that Cliff would mastermind a revolt against JR, but that he would try hard to do so and fail every time, where we pity him, and that maybe once in a while, he somehow wins because a broken clock tells the right time once a day.

Dallas was a cheesy soap, first and foremost, but the storylines revolving around business dealings were quality, and written by people who knew how the oil business worked.

*tells the right time twice a day*

oh dearing myself.

Cliff was Charlie Brown and the football.

I'm the aptly named Colleen Camp. Everyone remembers me from Clue, but not from my scheming character arc on Dallas.

This book by Barbara Curran is an excellent resource for all things Dallas, she talked with EVERYONE.

In the book, Victoria Principal said the producers offered her $250,000/episode to stay with the show when they realized she intended to leave. This would have made her the highest paid actor on television at the time.

I wonder what would have happened if she had accepted and stayed. There would have been deeper budget cuts, I would think. Would they have needed to pare down the cast further? And I can’t imagine Hagman would have been ok with it-he would have demanded more money too.

R211 I actually remember her obnoxious character in an odd movie called “They All Laughed”…..I think it’s from 1980…I have hated her ever since

[quote] I wonder what would have happened if she had accepted and stayed.

In my opinion she left a season too late. It didn't get any better for the Pam character after the dream season. Once Pam woke up she was the suffering heroine and not much else. Pam learned that Jenna was pregnant. Then she tried to adopt Jenna's baby and agonized over not being able to carry out a pregnancy herself. It couldn't have been any more housewife-y for Pam. In the dream season she went head to head against J.R and Cliff. And now she couldn't get pregnant. Boohoo. In contrast to diminished Pam, Sue Ellen's self-esteem took off and she started up Valentines, making her the master female schemer in Dallas history.

There wasn't really anything to gain for Victoria Principal who was probably bored out of her ears that year. It was good that she left.

She should have said Deal. That's a lot of fuck you money.

R214, you raise a great point about SueEllen. Many in this thread are talking about how all the women of Dallas had pathetic story arcs, and that they were always subjugated to the men.

What really happened is that most of the female characters learned to fight back, gain self-esteem, and start their own damn businesses, and in some cases, one-upped JR all the way to the bank.

[quote]We came to hate Miss Ellie, what a dumpy, pointless, whiny, always-wrong relic. Donna Reed was far more believable as a monied Dallas matriarch.

That is SACRILEGE! And you *clearly* have zero familiarity with how Texas *actually* works. It's irrelevant if Donna Reed was a more believable rich Dallas matriarch, because Miss Ellie herself was nothing of the sort. She wasn't a socialite, period, and while the show admittedly glossed over this fact, Southfork as depicted on the show would need to be at least two hours from the city of Dallas if only because of its vast size. (Nearly 300,000 acres, which in reality would consume most of suburban Dallas.)

Miss Ellie was a steel-spined rancher VERY intent on keeping it as an unspoiled paradise, as opposed to an active drilling site. This was a big issue between her and Jock at one point, and on the first episode of the TNT reboot, John Ross gets into a shitload of trouble for drilling on Southfork land without Bobby's permission. Moreover, I'm a native Dallasite and have known plenty of ranch matriarchs: BBG is about as perfect for the role as it gets. (And btw since it's "Dallas," they routinely telegraphed a character's "worth" via cars. The only two characters who ALWAYS drove modest cars were Ray, who always had pickups or old-school Suburbans, and Miss Ellie, who drove a VW Rabbit convertible in later seasons.)

[quote]The cast in March. Scroll down to see the pic of all the Dallas attendees, many of whom I don't recognize.

R88, same (but yes, the woman in the hat played Marilee). And fair point about the cosmetic surgery disasters: Joan Van Ark looks like she's gearing up to play Jocelyn Wildenstein! Priscilla Presley also looks odd, and *very* weirdly pale. (But point taken that she's probably still mourning Lisa Marie's death.) Also, in the front row on the first pic, are the two younger guys the original actors for John Ross & Christopher?

Linda Gray looks ASTOUNDINGLY good for an 83-year-old! While she's obviously had work done, it's not OTT like Joan or Priscilla. I don't recognize most of them, but among the ones I do: that's Jenilee Harrison (Jamie Ewing) to Steve Kanaly's immediate left. The blonde woman to Linda Gray's right is Sheree J. Wilson, who played April. In the photo immediately beneath it, that's Patrick Duffy posing with both actors who played John Ross: Omri Katz & Josh Henderson (on the TNT reboot). Also, interesting that Henderson seems to be the *only* cast member original to the reboot who showed up, but I guess Jesse Metcalfe couldn't be bothered.

R217 I think Jesse Metcalfe wanted off the reboot and wasn't going to return had it been renewed, so that's likely why he has no interest. I'm surprised some of the supporting actors from the reboot didn't attend.

Bit of a long story, but a few years back I was tasked with putting together a "bible" for the show, covering even esoteric topics. Here are some examples:

The "First" Season. It's since been effectively retconned as being part of what is, in reality, the *second* season, but "Dallas" started with only five episodes for a reason: the network wasn't sure if they wanted to pick it up, and in the mid-'70s – for reasons I'm unclear about – it was somehow a "thing" to order a multi-episode pilot. ("Wonder Woman" did the same thing, to be mega gay.) In reality the original show was MUCH different – in large part because it used a different ranch entirely as Southfork. It looks nothing even vaguely like the one everyone knows.

VERY oddly for Dallas, it had an extended cold snap as well as one of its biggest snowstorms ever at the time. Charlene Tilton got such an extreme case of the flu from filming outdoor scenes – and was out sick for weeks – that the producers almost recast the role. The first scene of Bobby & Pam driving back to Dallas in his iconic SL convertible was more than a bit silly considering they had the top down in 20º weather! (it was originally written to take place in the summer) Still, the show underwent some major changes based on those mere five episodes. Pam was originally intended to be the show's primary character – as the "center" of the Barnes-Ewing feud – and Sue Ellen & Cliff were mere guest stars. Still, the writers clued in quickly that J.R. was the standout character, and they upped Sue Ellen to a regular character (along with Ray) by the beginning of the next season. (All of four months later.)

The ranch used for the miniseries also had a major problem: its owner refused to let it be used for a continuing series. Given the *extremely* limited period between seasons, they had to scramble quickly to find a replacement (Even after the miniseries, he was getting random fans showing up at his front door.) Unlike the "other" Southfork, this one was snapped up by developers & turned into the painfully boring, fundie-heavy right-winger haven known as Frisco in the late '90s. (The one known as such is still largely the same today as it was 40 years ago, though the surrounding area is now all suburbs. That was why it could be easily used in the reboot: it was converted into a "Dallas"-themed event venue after the show ended, and hosts everything from business meetups to weddings.)

As such, they had to go with what is in reality little more than a then-recent-build, 4,000 sq ft home – except the producers had to transform it into a palatial mansion suiting an immensely rich family. This was why shooting its interiors on-site was never an option: the producers filmed all of its interior scenes at a Turtle Creek mansion that roughly fits the Southfork house's layout. (Which they bizarrely threw out for the reboot, instead making it into a fairly modest, open-plan look.) They also resorted to little more than camera trickery to make it "appear" larger from a bit of a distance. Also, the miniseries as well as the first two seasons were filmed entirely on location in Dallas, but after that they recreated the Southfork & Ewing Oil sets on Hollywood soundstages – in Southfork's case after taking over 1,000 Polaroids of its real setting, to get it as perfect as possible – and only returned to film various location scenes for the first 6-8 weeks of production of all but the final few seasons, which were mostly filmed in L.A. due to budgetary problems.

R212 Victoria loves to tell that highest paid actor and no amount of money could make her stay story. The reality is she was negotiating for one more season, and she threw a number out there they weren’t going to pay, but if they called her bluff she might’ve done another season. But she definitely had an exit plan sooner or later for the show. I think Joan Collins and Linda Evans were making at least, if not more than, 250,000 an episode. So I call bs on that. Victoria has her own version of the truth, but I’ll always give her credit for jumping off at the right time. Larry asked her to come back for the 11th season, but she declined. I do believe her days were numbered, and if she stayed she probably would’ve been shown the door after the 1987-1988 season. The budget cuts started hammering the show around this time.

Continued: after the series became a hit, the producers decided the Ewings needed an even *grander* mansion, albeit in part to explain how the place could fit something like 8-9 bedrooms. Enter the Great Southfork Fire of Season Six, which in reality was *entirely* done solely to redesign the set – and also "subtlely" increase the main living areas 50% in size, along with adding a very wide second-floor hallway instead of the standard-width one. The "main" hall alone had five bedrooms: J.R. & Sue Ellen, Bobby & Pam, John Ross, Christopher, and Ellie plus Jock and, later, Clayton. But then Lucy moved in. And Sue Ellen split up with J.R. but stayed at Southfork, in her own bedroom. And Southfork bedrooms were a revolving door for the rest of the series. It eventually sprouted a huge kitchen & breakfast room, along with an elaborate office and home gym.

While he didn't go into recovery until after the show ended, Larry Hagman was an alcoholic for most of its run, and if anything – given the vast amounts he drank (a bottle of vodka a day by the end) – I'm stunned that it didn't impact his acting. For the two reunion movies in the '90s, J.R. was explicitly on the wagon for this reason, except those are no longer canon. Reason being: the TNT reboot. As a superfan I appreciated many parts of it – hiring the OG cast members, filming it ENTIRELY on location (which nowadays is almost unheard of, unless it's a series filmed in a popular location for filming - Atlanta in particular - and the writers opt to incorporate it into the show), and retaining at least part of its iconic opening credits.

But they definitely fucked a few things up, and I was getting irked enough by some of them that I actually emailed the reboot's showrunner/EP over it. (Even by my standards, that was absurdly nitpicky. To my considerable surprise, she wrote me back!) The Southfork redesign was simply bizarre: they literally tossed out any & all interiors from the show's FOURTEEN seasons, and turned it into little more than a bland suburban open-plan McMansion. (With JR's room now on the ground floor – where the original show's kitchen used to be FFS.) Turning the original show's perennial loser, Cliff Barnes, into some sort of Machiavellian Koch Brothers equivalent – one with no qualms about trying to force his own pregnant daughter to lose her two children, after luring her into a dangerous setting – was absurd. They also did the unthinkable: killing off Christopher via car bomb! He died just like his mama did!

The worst part was pretending that numerous characters from the original show never existed. Despite adding a character from its TWELFTH season as a surprise reveal – the Rebecca engaged to Christopher is Cliff's daughter with Afton – the reboot simultaneously pretended like J.R.'s son James, who was featured prominently on the final two seasons, literally didn't exist. Clayton Farlow was on more episodes than *literally* anybody aside from the core Ewing/Barnes clan, but isn't even mentioned. Inexplicably, we're supposed to buy that J.R. has been in some sort of deep depression for a full 20 years following the series' finale – where he shot his reflection in a mirror – but instantly snapped out of it after a single chat with John Ross?? (Also: Sue Ellen moved him to London when she left the show, so how the fuck does he have a twang when Christopher does not?)

Scratch that: the ACTUAL worst part was turning Sue Ellen back into an alcoholic. The entire *reason* Linda Gray left the show was because she was tired of Sue Ellen being JR's doormat, and understandably so. It was GREAT when they had her running for governor, and while I know Sue Ellen had to have *some* reaction after JR died – which, sadly, also took the show down with it, due to some truly abysmal plot ideas like the house maid's daughter having some sort of odd connection to a Mexican drug cartel – it did *not* need to be her going off the wagon.

Continued: Finally, the one truly GOOD thing about the reboot: Judith Light, as Harris Ryland's mother. (She was so good that I wasn't even bothered by her being cast to play the mother of Mitch Pileggi, who IRL is only two years younger than her.) She was the ONLY truly good thing about the reboot! She chewed the scenery just as savagely as Joan Collins did on "Dynasty," and if they'd had a fourth season, I'm assuming she would've ended up as a main character. (They'd already upped her to series regular status because of her off-the-charts campiness, which the show BADLY needed.)

R221 Pam died of pancreatic cancer, not the car crash. But both her and Christopher going up in fireballs was tragic. Linda was initially against the drinking again story, but she was convinced that an alcoholic can give into the bottle when there are stressors in their lives, so she relented. I don’t think the drinking last more than a couple of episodes, and she was fine by the time the series ended.

Agree completely about Judith Light on the reboot! She was amazing. I also hated the depiction of Cliff. Complete character assassination. I wish Victoria would have been open to appearing. Undoing the bad ending they wrote for Pam would have been a huge selling point for me.

I always considered the Southfork Ranch and its interior set another main character, just like the Enterprise(s) on Star Trek, These pivotal "characters" should not be recast. So when the floor plan was completely different in the reboot, it did indeed bother me big time.

When Falcon Crest burned down I had it rebuilt exactly how my grandfather built it! Of course the first floor layout was never totally consistent with what room was off of what room.

R224 they didn’t approach her. The show was using her name for publicity and will she appear until Victoria put a stop to it and came out with a statement saying she had no interest. (Well you weren’t asked too). There was such an outcry from fans wanting to know what happened to Pam, so they finally killed her off. I know most fans wanted at least a cameo, but I can’t say I blame her for avoiding it. It was a pretty mediocre continuation of the show. She has more money than God and what actress at her age wants to do HD tv when they don’t have to. Linda looks incredible, but doesn’t have the money Victoria has. Tragic ending for Pam, but at least they respected the character enough to have her not ignore her ex and child for decades, and succumbing to the cancer while she was fighting to come home.

At least the Knots Landing finale was a love letter to the fans.

I can't wait for them to start streaming Knotts. I need to finish Dallas first. Dynasty meh.

[quote]Miss Ellie was a steel-spined rancher VERY intent on keeping it as an unspoiled paradise

I agree, except they so seldom played her that way. Occasionally she registered her disapproval. The character was underwritten and underused. The best scene ever was the shotgun in the hall closet.

[quote]Pam was originally intended to be the show's primary character – as the "center" of the Barnes-Ewing feud

Makes sense of the oft repeated story that the show was originally titled in development as "Untitled Linda Evans Project."

[quote] I was getting irked enough by some of them that I actually emailed the reboot's showrunner/EP over it. (Even by my standards, that was absurdly nitpicky. To my considerable surprise, she wrote me back!)

R221, what did she say, other than possibly cease and desist? (I kid, I kid...)

When (not if) they do the next reboot, I wonder what character they will use. Since Bobby and Sue Ellen are getting old and brittle but still aren't gone, I'm not seeing a working way to even bring them on for cameos. And Bobby would never leave the ranch (neither would have Miss Ellie, only lazy writing sent her to Greece). Could we see "Houston", Lucas Wade making it on his own? Or "San Antonio", Rebecca Barnes building her own empire?

Whaitaminute, when did Cliff and Afton have a daughter?

Right before she left she became pregnant, then in the 12th or 13th season she comes back for a couple pointless episodes where she hides the secret daughter from him. Well, she doesn't hide the girl; she hid his fatherhood.

I think if they ever do another reboot it will only feature next generation characters (ignoring the last reboot completely, which I feel would be necessary) or they'll do like they did with Dynasty and do a remake with new actors playing the old characters.

It would be funny if they did a reboot and the only original cast member to return was Victoria Principle as Pam! Our luck, we'd get Charlene Tilton as the new family matriarch, Lucy Ewing Cooper.

I want Knots Landing to stream. It has completely vanished, not on DVD except for the first two seasons, and not streaming or airing anywhere.

R233 Thanks. I wasn't watching by that point, and I tried and failed at sitting through much of the reboot.

One of the things that most bothered me about the reboot was how CW-bland and interchangeable the young leads were. I had trouble telling John Ross and Christopher apart -- they should have kept Christopher looking like that ugly little tow-headed baby who played him originally. And R225 is completely right about SF.

Running to Freevee to rewatch the show…

Just discovered Dack Rambo had twin brother killed at age17, there were two of them,Wow!

[quote] I want Knots Landing to stream. It has completely vanished, not on DVD except for the first two seasons, and not streaming or airing anywhere.

Not legally, anyway. I too wish they would release it to streaming. Lee, Van Ark, and Mills are still with us and always seem game to talk about the show, so they could even do little intros and outros of the episode with behind the scenes stuff that fans would love.

But I don't think it'll ever happen. Hardly anyone remembers Desperate Housewives, and Knots Landing ended its run 31 years ago. A whole generation of gays have no idea what that show was other than the it being the "Peyton Place" of the generation before mine.

If Victoria ever agrees to return for a new reboot, they should forget everything from the moment before she opens the shower door on.

Remember when Joan gave out her number? LOL

Yes r240!

I’m nearing the end of season 8 and I have to say, I’m enjoying Cliff more than I ever did the first time around. I also (sorry!) like his relationship with Jamie.

You probably already know how the season will end don’t you? Are you going to watch the dream season?

R243, yes, lol. I actually thought season 8 was the dream season… put it on, but decided to stick with it instead of skipping up to 9.

Season 8 is a real hair journey for the ladies!

The dream season pretty much killed the show but you've got to admit that you nearly shit your pants when Bobby came out of the shower.

I’ve read on one Dallas blog on the Telly Talk website some viewers skip the dream season because they figure what’s the point. But I recommend watching it at least once. The acting and writing were wonderful for about half the season as the family deals with the fallout of Bobby’s dream death, anchored by the return of Barbara Bel Geddes, who gives the show the emotional heft and wallop you would expect. Plus the potential of JR and Pam facing off every day at Ewing Oil. Then Anjelica Nero comes to town, and it starts devolving into her, Dack Rambo clones, and emerald mines. But it was the last season the show had ties to at least a tv reality. The post dream season had its moments, but the dream explanation really burst the bubble for the show.

I was 19 at the time, and when it was announced Duffy would return, all the tabloids were wondering if it’d be Bobby or another character he would play. I knew it would be Bobby, and he actually didn’t die. Never thought they’d pull something as lazy as a season long dream.

I wonder how Linda Gray felt about the dream season. Her acting and story line were top notch during that season. She did her best work then. Especially waking up in detox. She nailed it.

She probably wasn’t crazy about it, considering it would erase all the progress Sue Ellen made, and revert her to being an alkie again, even though the post dream season she cleaned up her act pretty quick. I’m guessing most of the cast thought it was ridiculous, but just showed up and cashed their checks. Only Susan Howard has gone on record as being critical of it.

Unfortunately so many reasons to like Susan Howard. LOL No matter what you may think of Susan outside of her professional work she was liquid gold on Dallas.

R249 agreed. Hate her politics, but she was amazing on Dallas. They were so stupid to let her go with Victoria leaving.

Some of Susan's best work.

I hated all of the "Jenna in peril" storylines of Season 8. I could give two shits about her and her stupid daughter. Both were terrible actors.

Did the show explain why Pam was having such vivid dreams of other people in long-running, new stories that had nothing to do with her? How very strange.

Victoria Principal, on Dallas, had great diction. I applaud that… but I also wonder if that was the reason (or at least part of the reason) that her acting seemed so artificial at times.

No, R254. No, that's not the reason...

I'm a serious act-TOR, motherfuckers!

Poor Pam. That first episode was rough on her. JR confronts her and asks her what the hell she’s up to. Lucy corners her and tells her she has no chance of making it at Southfork. And Sue Ellen’s bitchy comments about her and Miss Ellie of having a little tradition of setting up for a dinner and Pam’s help is NOT needed was great.

Let's be lines from Dallas that never made the script.

JR: Well, dad, it just seems to me Bobby is payin' attention to all the wrong things.

Jock: Bobby's upstairs fuckin' his wife. What the hell's wrong with that, JR? Maybe you should do the same, give me that grandson I want.

Sue Ellen: Thanks, Pam, but Miss Ellie and I have it all handled. After all, this isn't Taco Night at Buddy's Bowl-a-Rama.

R217- I don't know what you're talking about. There was an Dallas episode where it's mentioned the acreage of Southfork- I believe it was 1982 when Mickey Trotter started to work there under Ray. He asks Ray how big Southfork is and Ray tells him 500 acres - I don't recall the exact number but it was in the hundreds not 300,000 acres.

Sue Ellen was so threatened by Pam in those early seasons (“Miss Ellie, I don’t think Pamela likes your turkey.”) and then years later, they’re running off to Hong Kong together to look for Mark Grayson.

R261 - Sue Ellen only went to Hong Kong for the primo Kung Pow Chicken and Opium. She didn't give a fuck about Pam, let alone Mark

R260 Jock gave Ray a section of Southfork land. A section is one square mile (640 acres), so that's probably what Ray was referring to. I think Southfork was supposed to be about 100,000 acres.

Southfork had at least 40 sections, because the oil was under section 40.

Cliff is such an unsympathetic character - possibly the most unsympathetic in the entire show. Maybe if Digger wasn't an alcoholic and we knew more details about exactly how supposedly Jock screwed him we might have rooted for him at least a little. He just can't let go of the vendetta though even when he has some significant victories financially.

David Wayne was so good as Digger, and very believable as Cliff's father. Why did he leave the show? The replacement never fit the role at all.

[quote] Southfork had at least 40 sections, because the oil was under section 40.

I remember a reference to a Section 50, so there were at least that many.

Cliff fit in less and less with the show over the years. Ken Kercheval looked like he was closer in age to Miss Ellie than Sue Ellen by the end of the show. His clothes and demeanor made it seem like he was the comic relief, not a formidable enemy to JR.

I would have preferred Cliff leaving at the end of the 1987-88 season, instead of Ray. Jenna and Charlie still had to go, however.

After Pam left , there really wasn't a reason for Cliff to still be around. I loved his relationship with Pam. It felt like a true sibling relationship. And he made Pam's life difficult. So it helped with the drama. His last great scene was with Miss Ellie when he realized that Digger was just as much at fault as Jock regarding the feud. But after that he just wasn't that vital to the show's dynamic anymore.

R269 I’m guessing they kept Cliff on the off chance Victoria ever returned, plus to still have him as JRs foil tied to the show’s history. I didn’t mind Cliff, but hated Callie, Carter McKay, Rose, and Michelle.

I was excited to see a younger hot guy on Dallas but the James Beaumont storyline was one of the biggest duds.

I think I read somewhere that Southfork was modeled on the King Ranch of Texas, which is several hundred thousand acres in size.

Oh, I loved Carter McKay. He was the last well written and well acted character. The kind of relationships he had, the way George Kennedy could play menacing and sympathetic character traits, I thought it was a great shot I the anemic Dallas arm.

Season 9, Episode 1: Barbara Bel Geddes is back, and when she forks that stick into the earth where they’ll bury fake-dead Bobby we’re back in business.

R274 yeah the season opener couldn’t have been better. I loved how Barbara didn’t even try to copy Donnas gray dress from the hospital when the family comes back to Southfork and Barbara is wearing one of her standard sack dresses in green.

R275 - Miss Ellie freshened up in the ladies' lavatory at Dallas Memorial before heading home.

[quote]Sue Ellen: Thanks, Pam, but Miss Ellie and I have it all handled.

Yeah, Sue Ellen is drunk and Miss Ellie is stirring and stirring that fucking pot of chili.

R277 - And licking the spoon each time before stirring it some more.

I AM NOT AN ALCOHOLIC!

I imagine Sue Ellen saying r279 while driving home from her cunty OBGYN in her big ass station wagon, a bottle of Stoli between her legs.

Okay, so most of season 8 Pam searches for Mark (while making it clear that she’s only doing it out of guilt and “cares” about Mark… she sees a man she thought might be Mark, but wasn’t, and that ends her quest/curiosity/instinct… then he shows up? Ugghhh

**^^searching***. Uuuugghhhh

Not only that. She finds a man who was put in place by someone, so Pam would think that Mark is not alive anymore. And then nothing happens. Mark did not return to Dallas. Instead Pam married Bobby and didn't give Mark any thoughts anymore. Who put that Mark-lookalike into the hospital bed. We don't know.

The Ewings were inconsiderate assholes. They have a raging drunk in the family yet still have their nightly cocktails and a fully stocked liquor cabinet to tempt Sue Ellen. Then Miss Ellie and the rest act surprised when she falls off the wagon.

I AM NOT AN ALCOHOLIC!

BASTARD!

R283, in season 9, the dream season, when Mark comes back he explains (it’s all idiotic) that he put the fake guy in the Hung Kong hospital to get Pam to stop her search.

Since that was a dream, we never really do find out what happened to him, do we?

It's like I'm actually getting angry remembering the dream season. It was such a good season and then it just didn't matter. They took their audience for idiots.

Larry Hagman and Leonard Katzman hated the dream season, probably because it was so women-centric.

Knots Landing and Dallas swap some of their writers during this season, if I remember correctly. That might explain some of the shift.

One of the most insulting parts of the whole 'dream season' explanation was that they still went with the fake Jock storyline which started during Pam's dream! Infuriatingly bad, lazy writing.

And one of the twins being named after their dead uncle. Plus the twins actually weren't undreamed.

Here's a good timeline for the decimation of the cast.

The first was Jock (RIP) he naturally died, so they wrote him out of the show.

-The Barbara Bel Geddes left in the 1984-1985 season, and Donna Reed took over her character. Then Barbara Bel Geddes came back in the 1985-1986 season. What the writers did to Donna Reed was horrible, and rumor was Larry Hagman told them to give Donna Reed less lines and plots,etc... then they got rid of Donna Reed and she sued the show.

-Then Charlene Tilton was written out of the show, but then they randomly added her back in 1988-1990 but barely gave her any lines before removing her from the show again in season 14

- Then Patrick Duffy left in the 1985-1986 season, it was Patrick Duffy that wanted to leave the show, so they killed him off for one season. He returned in 1986-1987 season but the ratings for Dallas were never the same after.

- Susan Howard was written out of the show in 1987. Her Husband (Steve Kanaly) was written out of the show in 1988.

- Then Victoria Pricincipal was killed off the show over a contract and salary dispute in 1988. Leaving Patrick Duffy a Widower for the remaining 3 seasons.

- Then Linda Gray left the show in 1989. Leaving Larry Hagman single but quickly married Cathy Powell until she left him in season 14, leaving Larry Hagman single for season 14 and 15.

No show survives this shit.

Pam left in the Season 10 finale in spring 1987.

I was old enough to remember this show from its original run. We didn't have social media but we had People and TV Guide and Entertainment Tonight.

A BIG deal was made out of Duffy's exit. The great drama and stories that came out of Season 9 AKA the Dream Season were overshadowed by the sadness fans felt over losing Bobby. He was the perfect white knight and he'd just reunited with Pam. What a loss!

It was great that he was back but it was clear in the first episode of Season 10 that the writers were ignoring much of what was set up at the end of Season 8. We SAW Katherine in her car waiting outside BEFORE Pam's dream started. Mark was all but revealed to be alive.

But when the reality picked up after the dream season none of that played out.

The show was essentially over. We lost Pam, and Donna (HUGE loss), then Jenna (meh), Ray (he loved the land!) and then Miss Ellie; Clayton kept coming back to visit but he wasn't family.

He was just married to Momma.

They should have brought Tina Louise back as Julie Grey for the finale. Julie would certainly not have ended up dead if not for JR. It would have been amusing if she'd been Cliff's First Lady.

[quote]R17- I don't know what you're talking about. There was an Dallas episode where it's mentioned the acreage of Southfork- I believe it was 1982 when Mickey Trotter started to work there under Ray. He asks Ray how big Southfork is and Ray tells him 500 acres - I don't recall the exact number but it was in the hundreds not 300,000 acres.

R260, I'm afraid you're mistaken. Ray may have been referring solely to the portion Jock gave him. They mentioned later in the original series that it was "over 250,000 acres," though I don't recall the specific episode (or even year). I do recall it was part of Miss Ellie redoing her will, though I don't recall how they handled the Gary & Val issue, or if they even referenced what Gary received (if anything) after she passed away.

I do, however, recall its specific mention on the very first episode of the reboot: Bobby announced to the family his plan to sell Southfor , and in the next scene, he's shown meeting with his lawyer to discuss his sale options. He specifically references an actual sale: Hearst Ranch. (The one in California that includes, but isn't limited to, Hearst Castle.) The Hearsts sold it on the *very* specific condition that nearly all of its land be placed into a conservation trust, which permanently precludes it being converted into gross suburban tract homes. Since I work in environmental law, and had read about land conservatories at length in law school & beyond, I definitely remember that specific plot point.

Bobby says, and this is an exact quote, that Southfork is "more than twice as large" as Hearst Ranch. (He also intended to keep its land permanently protected.) Since Hearst totals 153,000 acres, Southfork must be north of 300,000. For perspective's sake, that's about 485 square miles. The ENTIRE CITY OF DALLAS is only 375 square miles. Even Dallas County, which includes many of its suburbs and has over three million residents, is only around 900 sq mi.

That being said, it's Texas, and there are four or five ranches even larger than the fictitious Southfork. The King Ranch still handily reigns as the state's largest, at 825,000 acres, but OTOH they're not contiguous; the ranch has "segments" in six different counties. The state's largest contiguous ranch is Waggoner Ranch in North Texas, at 510,000 acres. It sold in 2016 for what is believed to be the most expensive ranch or land sale in American history: $725 million. Still, it's admittedly a stretch that a ranch that huge would basically be sited in suburban Dallas. (Every other one over 100,000 acres is in one of the state's most remote areas.)

[quote]I agree, except they so seldom played her that way. Occasionally she registered her disapproval. The character was underwritten and underused.

R230, I'm afraid I have to disagree. Even very early on, Miss Ellie had one of the first truly *realistic* depictions of a woman getting a mastectomy due to breast cancer. And I'm guessing you don't remember the later seasons very well, because Miss Ellie was VERY active in opposing everything Carter McKay was planning! This is a coincidence, but one of the last episodes I watched of it – less than five years ago – featured her storming off of Southfork and barreling her VW Cabriolet through McKay's security gate at his house to confront him. (IIRC it was after he somehow finagled ownership of part of Ray's portion of the ranch – and its oil holdings – via blackmail.)

[quote]When (not if) they do the next reboot, I wonder what character they will use.

In this case I really don't think they'll do another reboot. Hollywood seems to be clueing in that its IP has a sell-by date. "The Fall Guy" underperformed, despite its truly great cast, because almost nobody under 50 remembers the original TV show. Also, the only reason "Dynasty" lasted for five seasons was because it was syndicated in so many countries. It was usually in the *bottom* 10 US ratings alone.

[quote]The acting and writing were wonderful for about half the season as the family deals with the fallout of Bobby’s dream death, anchored by the return of Barbara Bel Geddes, who gives the show the emotional heft and wallop you would expect. Plus the potential of JR and Pam facing off every day at Ewing Oil.

Agreed – the dream season's worth a watch, even if it "didn't mean anything." (It also ends with Sue Ellen seemingly perishing after someone sets up a bomb at Ewing Oil's offices.)

[quote]I was 19 at the time, and when it was announced Duffy would return, all the tabloids were wondering if it’d be Bobby or another character he would play. I knew it would be Bobby, and he actually didn’t die. Never thought they’d pull something as lazy as a season long dream.

I was *12* at the time and knew he had to be back as Bobby! Also didn't expect the "it was all a dream" bit, which was a definite letdown, but to be fair, he did die on camera and in a hospital bed surrounded by his entire family. They couldn't "pull a Kimberly" like on "Melrose Place," where her death was obviously faked. (The first time.)

[quote]Poor Pam. That first episode was rough on her.

True, but the Barnes-Ewing feud was intended to be Hatfield-McCoy level, and these seem like understandable concerns relative to a Barnes marrying a Ewing. (Also after eloping.) And as noted upthread, the show was originally intended to be centered on Pam, but J.R. quickly proved to be the breakout character.

[quote]Ken Kercheval looked like he was closer in age to Miss Ellie than Sue Ellen by the end of the show.

You should've seen him on the reboot! Holy FUCK he looked terrible! Patrick Duffy & Linda Gray admittedly had a fair amount of cosmetic work done, but Ken had zilch. But speaking of ages, the actors actually *weren't* that far apart. Barbara Bel Geddes was born in 1922; Larry Hagman in 1931 (except J.R. was supposed to only be 3-4 years older than Bobby, despite Patrick Duffy being born in 1949, though he admittedly looked great for his age on the original show); and Ken in 1935.

[quote]The Ewings were inconsiderate assholes. They have a raging drunk in the family yet still have their nightly cocktails and a fully stocked liquor cabinet to tempt Sue Ellen.

R284, I can only explain this as a "Texas thing." I know a lot about "Dallas" in part because I grew *up* in Dallas. My family didn't have a ranch, but my grandparents always had the entire family over for dinner at least twice as week. ALL of the adults drank G&Ts. (And also smoked, at least at the time.) Similar story to most other Texans I've known for that long, including a few with large ranches.

As for R293's comments: I have thoughts.

[quote]The Barbara Bel Geddes left in the 1984-1985 season, and Donna Reed took over her character. Then Barbara Bel Geddes came back in the 1985-1986 season. What the writers did to Donna Reed was horrible, and rumor was Larry Hagman told them to give Donna Reed less lines and plots,etc... then they got rid of Donna Reed and she sued the show.

They got rid of Donna Reed – despite her suing – because it was one of the single WORST recastings in television history. (Even worse than "Dynasty" replacing Fallon!) It was a terrible situation all around: she was merely doing her job, but Donna was simply not even vaguely the right fit for a character who by that time was already a TV icon. She would've been a more suitable replacement for Joan Collins on "Dynasty"! Yes, they treated her poorly, but I'm guessing she made a mint after suing the producers.

[quote]Then Victoria Pricincipal was killed off the show over a contract and salary dispute in 1988. Leaving Patrick Duffy a Widower for the remaining 3 seasons.

She left in '87, not '88. (Also, Bobby was a double widower: his wife April was kidnapped by Erica Kane ... er, Susan Lucci during their Parisian honeymoon on the show's final season.)

[quote]Patrick Duffy returned in 1986-1987 season but the ratings for Dallas were never the same after.

Not quite. The entire *reason* they went to such extremes to bring Duffy back was because the ratings for the 1985-1986 season were by far the worst the series had seen. For '87-'88 the ratings were significantly *up* for most of the season, credited entirely to Bobby's return. What really killed it was the end of THAT season, after Victoria Principal left – except, in proper soap opera fashion, there was a surprise twist: a MAJOR ratings rebound for the 1988-1989 season! The TWELFTH! I'm not sure exactly why it did so well, but it included the much appreciated addition of Carter McKay to the cast – including the episodes I mentioned over Miss Ellie getting peeved about Ray having sold his section of Southfork to McKay – along with the bizarre-but-oddly-cool circumstance of Bobby, J.R. and Cliff (!!) each owning equal shares in Ewing Oil.

The 13th season ('88-'89) was when the ratings started going down the shitter, though they'd already started declining in season 12. Sue Ellen left, and they added two of the show's most talent-free lead characters: Cally & James. But really, they were running short on plot threads. That was also went they started "stunt plots": "Dallas" was the first American TV show to *ever* film on location in Russia, and instead of the usual location scenes filmed in Dallas, they shot overseas in both Russia & Austria. (Except a stunt's just a stunt, and it couldn't mask shitty writing or actors mostly phoning it in.)

[quote]The show was essentially over. We lost Pam, and Donna (HUGE loss), then Jenna (meh), Ray (he loved the land!) and then Miss Ellie; Clayton kept coming back to visit but he wasn't family. He was just married to Momma.

Great summation, R294. (I was a Donna fan at the time, but not since finding out about her odious IRL politics.) With most of its original characters gone, and most of the new ones not being at all compelling (save for Carter & Michelle), even *I* tuned out for the final season, though I watched the series finale. (And later watched the full season while doing the bible thing.)

[quote] Bobby announced to the family his plan to sell Southfork

That was the first mistake of the reboot. Of all the original show's characters he would have been the last to even consider a sale.

R284, but you have to admit that those cocktail hour scenes were some of the most fun the show ever had.

[quote]Of all the original show's characters he would have been the last to even consider a sale.

Gotta disagree here as well. Bobby decided to sell Southfork for a simple reason: Christopher didn't want to take it over (he was doing his clean energy thing), and he wanted to honor Miss Ellie's wishes of keeping the land unspoiled. (Also, while this was an obvious setup, his first scene in the reboot has him visiting an oncologist who tells him he has some form of terminal cancer.) Selling it to a conservancy – which, if it'd happened, would've netted Bobby at least $200 million – was a logical move, particularly since Bobby thought he was dying (and he knew Ann had no expectation of inheriting it - I'm assuming her character was based in large part on Miss Ellie, at least in terms of being down-to-earth & not into glamor. (I remember Sue Ellen driving a Porsche Panamera the first season; Ann drove a base-level Tahoe.)

And yes, R300, some of those cocktail hour scenes are LEGENDARY!

Maybe I’m wrong but f do isn’t somebody say that Ray’s drive from the driveway down to his house took quite a while? I assumed that the ranch was huge.

R302, Jock gave Ray a small section of ranch – at least compared to Southfork's size – after finding out that he's his son. Since Miss Ellie owned the ranch, and since the writers also hadn't yet stated just *how* big Southfork was, Ray's part was "only" 500 acres.

His driveway wasn't that far from the road, and definitely nowhere near as far as the Southfork house was.

R298, I’m fascinated by your use of asterisks.

I think Ray got that piece of land before he became a Ewing.

Yeah, I think he got it as a wedding gift when he married Donna, which was before.

[quote] Yeah, I think he got it as a wedding gift when he married Donna, which was before.

Well, shit. And I all I got them was a toaster.

Actually, Jock gave it to him even earlier, when he was going to propose to Garnet McGee. Then he caught her in bed with J.R.

Ray gave it to me earlier.

Ray and Donna married after he found out he was a Ewing.

At Lucy and Mitch's wedding, JR went to Ray and said, 'Hey, Ray, you seen my daddy?'

"YOUR daddy, JR? Sure he's right over there."

"Thanks Ray.'

Donna walks up to Ray. "So it's true. You are a Ewing. Lucy told me. Strict confidence of course.'

"Why?"

"For the same reason she invited me to the wedding. She thinks you and I should be together."

That's why I loved Donna. Including Bobby, she was the only straight shooter on the show.

When Ray and Donna announced their engagement, Jock gave Ray a share of the Ewing sons' trust making him, "a millionaire in his own right."

And then Ray turned around and blew it all on a shady land deal.

I’m the Southfork barbecue sauce.

I was never a fan of Donna and am definitely not a Susan Howard fan. However, she did a good job during the pregnancy storyline.

That storyline seems ludicrous now without the context of the time in which it was produced.

R314 I think that’s the main reason Susan was so critical on record of the dream season. She knew she had done her best work of the series with it. Only for it to be erased because Duffy was so desperate for his job back he never should’ve left in the first place. I don’t think it was a ludicrous storyline. I imagine the little deaf boy Ray and Donna would’ve been shipped off to boarding school if the season wouldn’t have been made a dream. I just can’t imagine the kid roaming the halls of Southfork or even in Ray and Donnas shack. Dallas was never a politically correct show. So no use for deaf kids.

Was Duffy desperate for his job back or was Hagman desperate to have him back?

Seems like Hagman was very instrumental when it came to getting people to sign back on.

I still find it funny that after “Dallas”, Duffy didn’t skip a beat and did a 180 straight into a comedic role for seven years. With Suzanne Somers. Not even a one season break.

Hagman mostly wanted im back. Duffy concocted this wild list of demands. Including salary. They said yes to everyone in about 30 seconds. So he said fuck it and signed. After the first post dream season Dallas lost 10% of its ratings.

Remember how Duffy came back and very soon after, his parents were murdered? That was sad.

I think they could’ve lowballed Duffy a bit and he still would’ve come back. It wasn’t as if he was in high demand for film and tv work. He thought he was going to set the world on fire after Dallas, only to be relegated to doing two miniseries. One as a goat (an adaptation of Alice in Wonderland), and Strong Medicine, ironically with another hit series jumper Pamela Sue Martin. With Larry involved, of course he got what he wanted. Larry had said he completely understood why Victoria left, being an actress of a certain age in the industry, and wanting to see what more she could do, but thought Patrick was stupid for leaving.

Desperate Housewives ageing everyone was far worse than the dream season. Far, far worse.

Ultimately, I blame the producers for killing off Bobby.

I've written this before, but Katherine hires some goons to kidnap Bobby; Pam sees him being dragged into a van, it turns the corner, explodes.

The following year, we learn Katherine staged the whole thing. Do the Bobby is rescued story. Pam and JR have to team up.

That way, all the other great drama with Donna and Sue Ellen could have been kept.

How the fcuk did Pam dream "Ben Stivers" only to have him appear the next season as "Wes Parmalee."

At this point, it was all about the extra f.u. money. and the hell with the loyal audience.

R322 Duffy wanted him killed off and they listened to him. I think he somehow convinced the producers he was never returning. I love your idea, and that would’ve been a great way to go. Hindsight is 20 20 of course. Even with a flatlined Bobby, they could’ve gotten around his death. Katherine kidnapping him, not dying after hitting him with the car, and nursing him back to health, but keeping him prisoner and all to herself, until he escapes. Audiences don’t like to be fucked with. And that was one thing they didn’t fully think through by making it a dream. The underlying message was you just wasted hours on end watching things that will be erased in Dallas history. Then audiences started not watching which taught their asses a lesson. Duffy’s wife reportedly thought of the dream explanation. Another lesson. Don’t listen to the Duffy’s when making creative decisions for a hit show.

Watching the season in which Sue Ellen was pregnant. How in the hell was John Ross not born with fetal alcohol syndrome? Sue Ellen was drinking non stop the entire pregnancy. Rarely a scene without a glass in hand.

[quote]I still find it funny that after “Dallas”, Duffy didn’t skip a beat and did a 180 straight into a comedic role for seven years. With Suzanne Somers. Not even a one season break

That was part of the deal Lorimar gave him to return to Dallas. Lorimar gave Gregory Harrison the same deal to join Falcon Crest. He jumped right to the CBS sitcom Family Man, which only lasted half a season.

R323, thanks. I have watched A LOT of soaps over the years.

Back from the dead used to be saved for top tier A-listers. GH's Laura disappeared into the fog, presumed drowned in early 82; she was back on our screens November 83.

Roman fell off an island cliff on DAYS while fighting Stefano; Bo left his brother's body alone and mistakenly assumed it was washed out to see; he came back 7 years later. (Thanksgiving 1984 was RUINED btw -- when Roman "died").

You save back from the dead for the best of the best; DAYS sadly brings back everyone who died nowadays. If GH shows a body -- Julian, Britt -- they usually stay dead. No body, like Jason? The door is open.

Tho I do think GH NEEDS to bring back Britt. Stat.

doesn't anyone remember my various returns from the dead?

Not to derail this thread into daytime, but GH has definitely crossed the line a few times with "bring back the dead" stories:

Lesley Webber was killed in a car crash. Her co-workers at the hospital and her Doctor husband identified the body. A funeral was held. Lo and behold, nine years later she was being kept in captivity by the Cassadines.

Little Jake Webber gets run over by his grandfather Luke Spencer. Everyone sees the body (including his mother, a nurse), he has his organs donated and is buried. Lo and behold, a couple of years later he was really being held captive by the Cassadines. There had been a last minute "body switch".

A.J. Quartermaine came back from the dead twice (the last time he was pronounced at GH, only then to be willed back to life hours later by his surgeon mother's pep talk); Jason Morgan has spent more time "dead" than alive; Carly Corinthos showed up at her own funeral as a new actress. Pretty much everyone in town has died at least once.

Problem is that such foolishness is expected in a daytime soap, not a primetime soap with far larger budgets and more expensive writers and fewer episodes. The standard was higher, but they went straight down the path of the worst of daytime.

Bringing back from the dead? Only on soaps!

I know she chose to leave the show,, but I missed Afton when she left. After she left Cliff really became a cartoon.

I liked Mandy when she first arrived. She was smart, fun, and independent. Then she became JR's mistress and turned into a breathy moron.

Seaons 6, 7, 8 were glory years; the fight for Ewing Oil; the blend of personal and business; JR and Katherine schemed to break up Pam and Bobby, the waiting and waiting for them to reunite and realize she'd never written any letter.

Classic soap.

The dream season is almost like a stand alone maxi series as Season 10 all but ignored after Pam's wtf was that?

The first few seasons were fantastic especially once it went serialized and things weren't wrapped up more or less in a single show.

[quote]I think they could’ve lowballed Duffy a bit and he still would’ve come back. It wasn’t as if he was in high demand for film and tv work.

I truly don't get why some people think it's *entirely* about money. It's not, nor has it ever been – at least for traditional network shows. It's legitimately exhausting to work 14-16 hour days, as is standard in TV, And this was back when 30-episode seasons were the norm! (And at 48-50 minutes, with far fewer commercials.) Burnout for a show's leads is definitely a real thing, and if anything I'm amazed Barbara Bel Geddes managed to stay put for all but a few seasons.

Btw this is why the networks always mandated five-season minimums, at least from relative unknowns: plenty of actors *try* (and fail) to quit the first season. They're often halfway out the door after the fifth season: pick any given show with an ensemble cast, and you'll see series regulars routinely begin departing with the sixth season. As an unusual example: after the fifth season of "The X-Files" David Duchovny & Gillian Anderson threatened to quit if Fox wouldn't move the show's production from Vancouver to L.A. (Also, Canadian winters by themselves are a big reason shows that film there lose actors.)

[quote]Watching the season in which Sue Ellen was pregnant. How in the hell was John Ross not born with fetal alcohol syndrome?

R324, it was the '70s. EVERYONE drank & smoke – even my own parents, and yes, through both of my mom's pregnancies. My brother and I turned out fine. (It was only a few years after John Ross's TV birth that "booze-shaming" expectant moms started happening.)

[quote]Only for it to be erased because Duffy was so desperate for his job back he never should’ve left in the first place.

R315, I also missed Donna's storyline, but it was the network that was desperate for *Duffy* to return, not the other way around. The ratings plummeted that season, which is the only reason CBS went ahead with the still-unprecedented – and likely to remain that way – extreme of turning an entire *season* into "a dream."

[quote]I still find it funny that after “Dallas”, Duffy didn’t skip a beat and did a 180 straight into a comedic role for seven years. With Suzanne Somers. Not even a one season break.

Hey, Elisabeth Moss went straight from "The West Wing" to "Mad Men" to "The Handmade's Tale." None are comedic, obviously, but good actors can handily transition into an entirely different role from before.

[quote]Back from the dead used to be saved for top tier A-listers.

True, but you're glossing over a rather considerable difference. The standard on daytime soaps was always "presumed dead": a character drove off a cliff into the ocean, was in a plane crash, kidnapped, etc. They never had ONSCREEN deaths, since the producers always knew full well that soap actors routinely return. The REAL back-from-the-dead ridiculousness involves characters who unambiguously flatline onscreen while surrounded by family – which, to be clear, isn't at all specific to "Dallas."

I never watched GH, but I still remember the truly absurd lengths "All My Children" went through to bring Jesse back, DECADES after his onscreen death. (He was one of the few actors who neither planned to return, and didn't want anyone else assuming the role.) I'll skip over the batshit "hey we're getting cancelled so let's bring back LITERALLY EVERYONE" bullshit – including Stuart FFS!

[quote]Bringing back from the dead? Only on soaps!

R329, we all know superheroes routinely die & return, but they also *have* superpowers. (Or they're not even from Earth.)

Oh, it's Len Katzman again.

I truly don't get why some people think it's *entirely* about money. It's not, nor has it ever been – at least for traditional network shows. It's legitimately exhausting to work

And on a massive hit show like Dallas was, they’re compensated out the ass to work those hours. When Duffy returned, all that he asked, along with an astronomical amount per episode, was to have Bobby not be so milquetoast. I don’t think he was BEFORE he left. He really explored every aspect of the character through the 1984-1985 season. It was mostly cash, and missing Hagman, that brought him back.

[quote] (It was only a few years after John Ross's TV birth that "booze-shaming" expectant moms started happening.)

The tip of the iceberg on a very slippery slope.

I also missed Donna's storyline, but it was the network that was desperate for *Duffy* to return, not the other way around. The ratings plummeted that season

Desperate might be too strong a word, but he didn’t put up much resistance to it either. Hagman invited him out to his place, and he agreed to return. Personally, I would’ve said no to him. The ratings didn’t plummet. They ended up at 6 for the season. They were used to being 1 and 2, but still being in the top 10 is not plummeting. Tv tastes were changing, and sitcoms came back big time in the mid to late 80s. Victoria wanted parity with Duffy, which she deserved, and they turned her down (even though she might’ve stayed one more season at best). Victoria stood by the show, when Duffy left and did next to nothing with his career. I think Duffy would’ve approached them eventually to return tbh. His return, and the way it was handled, plus his salary demands and bonus to return, all to be in the glow of his presence as Bobby, and to accommodate his ass, completely undermined the show. Then the ratings plummeted out of the top 10 for good.

Some of the main actors said that the workload on Dallas was actually quite nice. It was a soap with nine to 12 regulars. So even if you were part of a major story line you only had to film 20 minutes per episode in a week. Now, you had a lot of standby time, but the schedule wasn't too bad. It's not like Columbo where the star has to be in 80% of all scenes.

Whatever they paid Miss Ellie was too much.

I also found Miss Ellie dull.

What was Donna's backstory prior to marrying Sam Culver? Was she an only child, orphan, what? Of all the Dallas characters, we never heard a peep about her family background.

[quote] Whatever they paid Miss Ellie was too much.

Barbara Bel Geddes was in bottomless G&T's and packs of Pall Mall.

I think Donna told the story in one of her first appearances, r342.

Donna went to college with Bobby Ewing , but had to drop out when her parents died in a car crash. She went to work and got involved in politics. That’s how she met Sam Culver. Her maiden name is McCollum.

We WISH the post Moldavian Massacre only dropped us to 6!

Thanks for that R344!

It would have a nice nod to the past in the reboot if Donna had some sort of tie to Sue Ellen’s race for governor-working for her; her opponent; or maybe she was one of Texas’ senators.

The reboot was so botched. So much potential wasted! It's only saving graces were Sue Ellen's evolution, Judith Light's performance, and the fact that Larry got to die while playing J.R. again.

In the very first episode, Jock and Miss Ellie are watching Cliff lead some hearings that concern Ewing Oil. What was that about? Was it ever revisited?

The ginormous, blindingly white veneers of that chick from the Fast and Furious movies was enough to put me off of the reboot series.

Who the hell was looking at Jordana Brewster when you had gay-baiting Josh Henderson and Jesse Metcalfe prancing around half naked?

I watched Wonder Woman and The Incredible Hulk on CBS

I found those boys kind of 'Meh', R351

Here you go, r349.

I’m busy scratching my asshole right now…. Brb….

R353 - Oh yes, they're absolutely meh-level uggos.

If they ever do a remake a la Dynasty, let's make Kit Mainwaring and his gay story juicier and keep him around after he dumps Lucy.

In a remake a la Dynasty, Lucy would be a transgendered Puerto-Rican social justice warrior.

Valene would definitely be hispanic or African American in a remake, making Lucy biracial. One major character will need to be gay. Cliff? Ray? Having an affair with Kit Mainwairing, adding extra drama when Lucy falls for him.

Oh Bobby would have to be the gay one. At this point, the gay son is still the snow flake.

Gary would be gay (thank you Lord) and his self-loathing under Jock's boot made him drink. And drunk, he knocked up Valene, who always tries to save him, just like OG Knots/Dallas.

R361 - To me, that was always the subtext anyway.

Watching the first few seasons and whiny Lucy gets on my nerves. I just want to yell "Shut your fucking face uncle fucker!"

R347, there was zero chance of that. Susan Howard dug her own grave on the show by bitching about it being "pro-abortion." (Despite it never having a character who had an elective one.) That was what prompted her firing.

R348, if anything it's bizarre that they got so much of the reboot *right* – original J.R., Bobby, Sue Ellen & Cliff; filmed entirely on location in Dallas *and* at the actual Southfork; a realistic set of opponents in John Ross & Christopher; all things Judith Light – that I truly can't fathom its fuck-ups. I can deal with retconning the two miniseries about it, but as others have pointed out, the house *itself* was a character. The reboot turned it from a grande dame into a frumpy Midwestern 'fraud.

The bigger problem, however, was the cast (meaning the new one). While it may "fit" for Hollywood to hire blandly attractive but mostly talentless actors, that is NOT gonna work when they're literally sharing the (sound)stage with multiple TV legends. When the only two actually *interesting* characters are north of 60 (Judith & Mitch Pileggi), you should know you have a problem. (And considering how much money they spent on that show, they *definitely* could've hired actors for the younger characters with actual *talent*. If a show like "Snowpiercer" is smart enough to immediately go after Tony winner Daveed Diggs, why couldn't "Dallas"??

But really, what killed the show was Larry Hagman's unfortunate death. I'm truly curious if either he or the producers knew just how little time he had left by the time production started; I really can't think of another show where a lead actor died only a few episodes into its season. I'm amazed he was still KILLING IT as J.R. even at his advanced age & deteriorating health.

As for a "'Dynasty'-style reboot": they kept the same characters, aside from turning Sammy Jo from a fag hag to an actual gay guy (and, bizarrely, writing out his husband Stephen after two seasons), with minimal changes. More fiftysomething men nowadays look like Grant Show (still hunky) than John Forsythe, and it wisely focused on Fallon, the show's cattiest character until Alexis came into her own. They made Sammy Jo & Cristal Hispanic, and turned Culhane the chauffeur into a Black guy – and lead character – but even after the George Floyd stuff in 2020, they didn't lean that hard into a social-justice context.

The one major change: after deciding to make the Colbys black, they also decided to make Dominique Jeff's mother. A bit of a stretch, but still. (Well, that and they went through, what, three Alexises and four Cristals??)

[quote] Despite it never having a character who had an elective one.

Didn't Lucy have one?

They should’ve done the Dallas reboot in the early to mid 2000s, when Larry was healthier. I liked Josh Henderson, and the chick who played Cliffs daughter, and I believe they had some modicum of talent beyond their looks, especially Josh. The ratings dropped like a stone after the first episode, so even if Larry would’ve lived, it wouldn’t have gone beyond three seasons. The writing really sucked, and the things they got right felt almost accidental. The show runner had no intention of consulting with the any of the original Dallas writers, and it showed. And it probably ended more depressing than any multi decade show with Cliff in jail, JR dead, Pam dead, and Christopher blown up.

Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, I think one of the many problems actually was the reliance on the legacy characters. People wanted Pam back, Katherine, Afton. But most characters who left a lasting impression had been on the show for just two, three years. I don't know how you could write Dallas without J.R. when Hagman is still around. John Ross though became his own more interesting when his dad was no longer around.

R364 I couldn't believe Adam shoving Alexis's face into the flames in the Dynasty reboot. Plus Alexis causing Mark Jennings' death. Same characters, but definitely shook up the story. Alexis was much weaker (living in a trailer?! Joan Collins would never!) by far because Fallon basically had the Alexis role. I was good with that, though, because they cast Fallon so well.

As much as I love Dallas, I'd enjoy a juicy remake like that, with some gay content.

Larry did appear in 17 episodes of the new Dallas: the entire 1st season and 7 episodes of the 2nd. I don't think anyone knew during the first season how little time he had left. I would guess that it became more apparent during filming of the second season. He was still on top of his game as JR, and I'm glad he got to go out that way.

^ Died with his boots on.

Larry had his ashes spread over Southfork. Very fitting.

I thought Lucy had an abortion too … but cannot remember when that would have been. They certainly didn’t dwell on it.

Lucy was raped by her photographer at the end of season 5, resulting in her pregnancy.

She had an abortion early in season 6, although Pam and her friend Muriel gave her a hard time about it.

How in the hell am I supposed to discuss what I have not seen?

Way to be supportive, Muriel.

Ray got that Lucy snatch when it was still young and tight. 🐈

Donna and the Tards. My favorite punk band!

Charlene Tilton was a pint sized sex symbol with blond hair down to her ass.

^ It's such a burden, and seldom ends well.

[quote]Didn't Lucy have one?

R365, while it was "voluntary," she only had it because she was raped. (I think that was a reasonable "excuse" for a televised abortion at the time.)

[quote]They should’ve done the Dallas reboot in the early to mid 2000s, when Larry was healthier.

R366, agreed in theory, but you may not remember that the show had two reunion TV movies. The second aired in 1998, as part of the show's 20th anniversary, but did poorly in the ratings. (Also, this is admittedly absurd, but in the mid-2000s the guy who made "Legally Blonde" was trying to shop around a reboot that sure as fuck SOUNDS like either farce or camp: John Travolta as J.R. & JLo as Sue Ellen. No, I am definitely not kidding!!!)

[quote]R364 I couldn't believe Adam shoving Alexis's face into the flames in the Dynasty reboot.

R368, I concur that was definite overkill. OTOH "Dynasty" always had a bit more leeway for that: "Dallas" never had its lead character kidnapped by aliens. Or an entire wedding party gunned down, only to "miraculously" recover during the summer hiatus. Those "Moldavian healing waters" are something else!

[quote]Larry did appear in 17 episodes of the new Dallas: the entire 1st season and 7 episodes of the 2nd. I don't think anyone knew during the first season how little time he had left.

I think at least one person knew how little time he had left: Larry! "Dallas" is his biggest legacy, and I can definitely see why he wouldn't want it to end with the original show's ridiculous "mirror-shooting" finale. I have no clue if the producers knew anything about it, and I'm assuming TNT *definitely* didn't, but still. Also, watching him with literally ANY character aside from Bobby or Sue Ellen was a disappointment: he truly had no match.

And I think the TNT show was the actual end. The studios have figured out that pre-2000 IP doesn't "work" for millennial or Gen Z audiences (hence the reason why "The Fall Guy," despite rave reviews & Gosling as star, underperformed). Larry's passed on; Patrick's not looking great, to be honest; and if even Dames Judi & Maggie decided to call it a night at 80, Linda Gray likely should at 83 (despite looking fantastic). I'm assuming no one wants a reboot with just the untalented younger Ewings (and Rebecca).

[quote]Also, this is admittedly absurd, but in the mid-2000s the guy who made "Legally Blonde" was trying to shop around a reboot that sure as fuck SOUNDS like either farce or camp: John Travolta as J.R. & JLo as Sue Ellen. No, I am definitely not kidding!!!

I recall that too. Can't remember the context, but remember that chatter.

agreed in theory, but you may not remember that the show had two reunion movies

I do remember, and watched them. Still unfortunate it didn’t happen, but I don’t know if they were actively shopping a Dallas reboot around in that decade.

"Dallas" never had its lead character kidnapped by aliens. Or an entire wedding party gunned down, only to "miraculously" recover during the summer hiatus. Those "Moldavian healing waters" are something else!

No. They made an entire season and a little more a dream. Which is more ridiculous and far fetched that both versions of Dynasty ever did.

Dames Judi & Maggie decided to call it a night at 80

What are you talking about? Both have continued to work approaching 90. Though Judi might hang it up due to her bad eyesight.

The mentions of Dames Judi and Maggie made me think: what if they did a complete remake and Helen Mirren played Miss Ellie? Never going to happen, I know, but this is fantasy casting. Who could play Jock? Sam Elliot comes to mind, but he already dissed Dallas by saying Yellowstone was too much like it.

You'd need it to be a drama, not a melodrama to get good actors. Like Dynasty, the first episodes were better storytelling with stronger characters.

Gravitas and charisma are dead, no one could play Jock or JR anymore.

I want one of DL's resident AI artists to make me an image of young Jock and Ellie based on 1950s publicity stills of Jim Davis and still of BBG from her old western, "Blood on the Moon." Please kind sirs, make it happen!

Young Ellie gets the shotgun herself.

I wish they had given Sue Ellen claws before the end of the series. A great final season would have been great ending with Sue Ellen taking control of Ewing Oil.

What the hell would former Miss Texas recovering boozehound Sue Ellen know about running an international oil conglomerate? I had a hard enough time believing Bobby could do it. That lingerie store thing was enough of a stretch, and probably financed by Ewing money as a vanity project for wifey.

R388 it’s called dramatic license. Sue Ellen wasn’t just going to go to work at Walmart. And I think a show that concocted a 31 episode plus dream out of an 8 hour Pam sleep, and characters like Miss Ellie, Digger, Jenna changing their faces, Sue Ellen’s learning the ropes of business is the least of its problems.

I did it and I spent most of my husband's really instructive career years banging pool boys in Acapulco.

Dack Rambo appears to be wearing a codpiece. His crotch enters the room before the rest of him.

^ How unusual. I always thought Dack entered a room ass first.

Sack was so pretty.

Ugghhh! Dack! ^^

[quote]No. They made an entire season and a little more a dream. Which is more ridiculous and far fetched that both versions of Dynasty ever did.

Fair point, but I still think aliens are more batshit in the context of a soap opera than any "dead" character coming back to life. (Even when a soap goes to absurd extremes to do so.)

[quote]What are you talking about? Both have continued to work approaching 90. Though Judi might hang it up due to her bad eyesight.

To clarify, I meant regular work. Dame Judi exited the Bond franchise for that reason, and does occasional one-off talks for theatre audiences, but has also said that she's too old to do any future stage work (the regular 8x/week kind), in part because of her vision. Maggie exited "Downton Abbey" for similar reasons. OTOH Betty White admittedly appeared as a series regular on "Hot in Cleveland" well into her 90s.

[quote]Like Dynasty, the first episodes were better storytelling with stronger characters.

VERY strong disagree!! The first season of "Dallas" – meaning the first full season, along with the five-episode miniseries that kicked it off – was generally as dull as dishwater, though at least they successfully established Gary & Val (and, by extension, "Knots Landing"). To note a few storylines: Pam wanted to get a job at The Store – its actual devoid-of-originality name on the show – but Bobby wanted her home makin' babies. Con man Willie picks up Lucy at the Ewing Barbecue; cons her into participating in several schemes; gets upset when she says no & kidnaps her; and Bobby & the police track her down ... all in a SINGLE EPISODE.

Pam is offered a promotion at The Store, but it would mean postponing a trip with Bobby to Paris. Oh, the horror!

Bobby's old college pal has a "moneymaking opportunity" for him: all he needs is a few hundred Southfork acres. Miss Ellie says HELL to the no!

The season had three quality episodes: the one where Miss Ellie's brother Garrison shows up, after being presumed dead. If anything, this should've been a multiepisode arc – and also should've replaced the much more ridiculous one after Jock died. It was of critical importance because Garrison was the one who inherited Southfork, and to state the blindingly obvious, the Ewings would've had to have given up their ancestral home. But, of course, Garrison turned out to be a con man.

The other two were the final two, and also the first episodes of the show's transition from standalone episodes to serials. (They'd done an earlier experiment across various episodes highlighting Sue Ellen's affair with Cliff, but the "who's the daddy?" episodes were the two highest rated of the season, aside from the Garrison episode.)

To be fair, I know "Dallas" wasn't the only show to transition into a soap, but it was DEFINITELY better as one. I'd say the exact same thing about a show that premiered less than a year after "Dallas" ended: "Melrose Place." Season one was total garbage, and it got the shot in the arm it needed in the form of Heather Locklear & Amanda Woodward buying the apartment complex. On "Dallas," the serial approach also let the writers get creative with J.R.'s goings-on, some of which were admittedly complicated.

[quote]I wish they had given Sue Ellen claws before the end of the series. A great final season would have been great ending with Sue Ellen taking control of Ewing Oil.

I assume you're referring solely to the original show: Sue Ellen *does*, in fact, end up controlling Ewing Oil at the end of the first reunion movie – she makes her entrance on the second movie driving through the front gate at Southfork with a new vanity plate specifically reading "EWING OIL" – and also the reboot. Or, rather, co-controlling: the reboot ended with her & Bobby outmaneuvering Cliff & his daughter Pamela to take over Barnes Global, which immediately becomes Ewing Global. (The fact that Christopher wasn't at all involved in these maneuvers were the giveaway that they'd planned to kill off his character, who seemingly perished in a car bomb on the final episode.)

[quote]What the hell would former Miss Texas recovering boozehound Sue Ellen know about running an international oil conglomerate?

If there's anything the past decade has taught us, it's that A LOT of people assumed to be smart are, in reality, idiots. Trump tops that list, and Elon Musk is its biggest shock of an addition. By the same coin, a "recovering boozehound" can certainly run an oil company, and in this particular case, the ex-boozehound in question was already a successful businesswoman who ran for governor (in the first season of the reboot). Or is your real problem the fact that it's a *female" boozehound running the show? (But fair point that Bobby's basically an airhead, initially known only for being a UT football star.)

[quote][C]haracters like Miss Ellie, Digger, Jenna changing their faces

I'll admit that I found it curious that, unlike "Dynasty," "Dallas" never even *tried* the "replace an actor via disfiguring burn injuries" bit, and instead always just used unannounced replacement actors, up to and including Donna Reed. Also, I'm somehow always surprised that some of you bitches always forget that the FIRST Jenna Wade was played by Morgan Fairchild, of all people!

and now it's a Trump thread. Thanks.

R395 Garrison didn’t turn out to be a con man. He came home because he was dying and wanted to see Southfork and his sister.

I do agree that it should have been a multi episode arc, but they were all about plots that wrapped up in an hour at that point.

Why do same characters exit the house (Southfork, Ray’s house, etc) by pushing their way through curtains? Is that an actual Texas thing, or something dreamed up by production so that audience can’t see inside? Seems clunky every single time.

R398, Garrison's nurse, Cathy, was played by Melinda O. Fee.

She died in 2020.

The actress had quite the eclectic resume. She played Mary Anderson on DAYS. She was briefly Jill Abbott on Y&R. AND she was Fembot/Tami Cross on The Bionic Woman.

R400- She looks quite a bit like Pinky Toscadero

Bitch stole my look

[quote]Why do same characters exit the house (Southfork, Ray’s house, etc) by pushing their way through curtains? Is that an actual Texas thing, or something dreamed up by production so that audience can’t see inside? Seems clunky every single time.

R399, it's definitely not a Texas thing, and I agree it looks silly. I don't recall offhand what it looked like at Ray's place, but the reason they had to do it that way for Southfork is because they established in its first full season that the real house's interior looks nothing even *vaguely* like the Turtle Creek mansion they ended up using for shooting the interiors. I noted it upthread, but after the initial miniseries (and the original Southfork owner refusing to let them continue filming there), the producers had to scramble to find an exterior AND interior that would plausibly "work." They picked that particular Turtle Creek house because it at least "fits" Southfork's exterior by having its living room to the left of the front door and its dining room to the right.

Where it did not at ALL fit was out back. The main sliding glass door from the actual Southfork house went into a surprisingly cramped kitchen – except this "didn't fit" with the layout of having the dining room on the right side of the house. (For that matter, it's pretty standard in American homes for the garage to lead directly into the kitchen. That's exactly what it does at Southfork, but not TV Southfork.)

Btw this is also related to why *literally* almost everyone visiting the house – including people like the police who don't live there – went to the rear entrance, not the front, despite the oddity. In the real house, the areas housing what's supposed to be the living/dining area were "extended" a bit using camera tricks. Those same camera tricks are harder to pull off if you can see the *actual* exterior, which is why it was shown all of three times on the original show – each at night, and yes, I counted. (They started using it more or less normally again on the reboot, after the real Southfork's interior had been overhauled and roughly matched what was shown on TV size-wise.)

Finally, this isn't a "thing" – in Texas or any other hot-weather state – for good reason: it lets out all the A/C! Two things you do *not* waste in Texas are summertime A/C and cold beer! (Preferably Lone Star.)

Dallas DL historians, what is the story behind the implied lesbian relationship between Grace and Angelica Nero. I just watched the dream season and they did act a little weird around each other. I remember somebody on here saying that they were going to go for a lesbian relationship but then Hagman put a stop to it. Please fill me in.

YOU MADE ME FEEL LIKE A PIECE OF TRASH, J.R.!

R404, I've heard conflicting versions of what happened, but I think it was the network that scrapped the idea, not Larry: he was the one, along with creator Leonard Katzman, who tried to *convince* them to do it! (Ratings were admittedly plummeting at the time.) Still, it was the '80s, so you wouldn't have even seen the two in bed together, let alone even closed-mouth kissing.

Thanks for that R406. Very interesting. I remember a similar lesbian storyline was proposed on Falcon Crest for Miss Jones and Meredith but staunch Catholic Jane Wyman vetoed it.

Did L.A. Law do a major lesbian storyline around this same time? I never watched the show, but I recall the media buzz about it. I think it was the Michelle Greene character.

R404 it wasn't Hagman.

It was Blake Carrington.

"What kind of woman puts her hands on another woman!"

^ I always suspected there was much more to all that rough-housing and manhandling between Krystle and Alexis. Pent up frustrations...

[quote]staunch Catholic Jane Wyman vetoed it.

No surprise there. She was always an uptight cunt.

Susan Howard also complained about the lesbian relationship between Angelica and Grace. Grace was scarier to me than Angelica-her eyes were dead.

Before Patrick agreed to return, Sue Ellen was supposed to survive the explosion at Ewing Oil, but end up in a wheelchair and fighting with JR again. Mark was supposed to die on his honeymoon with Pam, and Pam would have ended up running his company and battling JR.

I don't even think Susan was still on the show when they want scissors action.

What could have been! I always felt like it should have come down to Pam taking on J.R. in business. She should have been his true adversary.

I always assumed they only blew up Sue Ellen because they knew it wasn't going to be real at that point.

R412 she didn’t battle him under the Ewing Oil roof, when the show went off in the diamond mine Anjelica Nero direction, so why would she battle him as head of Marks company?! I can’t remember what Marks company dealt in, but it sure wasn’t oil.

[quote] Mark was supposed to die on his honeymoon with Pam, and Pam would have ended up running his company and battling JR.

I always liked Mark Grayson even if he was really just a pretty sounding board for Pam. So they did remember that he actually owned a company? That was untapped territory that could have added some flavor to the Barnes/Ewing feud. So instead of running Mark's company and going toe-to-toe with J.R. they rather had Bobby come back and Pam cry half the season for not getting babies. And on top of that they had her ask Jenna to adopt her baby. I can see why Victoria Principal was happy to leave.

Mark Graison, during the dream season, was exhausting his company’s resources in an effort to set up clinics that would be focusing on unconventional medical treatments (like what saved his life from the blood disorder that should have killed him.

As glorious as the first 8 seasons were -- and I learned to love Dream Season 9 -- the last five were horrible; minus the Pam Bobby wedding; we waited and waited. The actors gave us the payoff.

I recall when Mark Grayson's story line of 'I'm dying' started, it was with him talking to Pam:

PAM: Mark, who was it that left you a message?

MARK: Oh I think it was my doctor, wanting to call me back. Probably some sort of tests or something, due to my old knee injury or something...

I laughed at this, because he hadn't even been to the doctor yet. Stupid continuity error in that script. Like your doctor is going to leave a message telling you to come in for an appointment because of bad news, when you hadn't even been there. Was that doctor psychic?

Well, that Doctor was his old high-school buddy Jerry Kenderson. He probably remembered Mark's hairy chest and thought a thorough physical might work to see that hairy body again.

Mark was never mentioned again after the dream season. Like all of Pam's traipsing around the Orient and the Bahamas never happened either.

R422.

That drove me nuts. JR admitted to Pam that he sent her to the Caribbean, but he had no role in her going to Hong Kong.

The writers had a plan and it was a good one. Mark would be presumed dead. John Beck was available and wanted to continue to work.

Bobby died and he wasn't (so we thought) coming back; so the next season, Mark pops up alive to be Pam's hero. The next best thing, to many.

When Mark learned that JR had sent Pam on a wild goose chase he went to his office and popped him a good one.

But when Bobby came back, they said okay, not only was last season a dream but the dangling plotlines and set ups from the PREVIOUS season weren't valid either.

We SAW Katherine in a car outside the home BEFORE the dream started. But when Pam and Bobby walked outside in the post -dream season premiere...no Katherine.

TPTB had stopped trying at this point.

^ But in return you got a retconned pregnancy. Somewhere between Jenna's release from prison and Bobby's proposal to Pam, he got Jenna pregnant. What an ass.

Jenilee Harrison must've gotten bigger implants after the dream season. Just about every scene she's in has her in these sun dresses with no bra. Her ginormous tittys and hard nipples are very distracting for this viewer.

Maybe it was intentional jiggle tv to boost sagging ratings. You didn't see Victoria running around with glass cutter nipples, I guess Jenilee needed the cash more at that point.

It is odd to me that the producers let Charlene Tilton go when they knew Patrick Duffy was leaving. They also let Linda Gray go temporarily when she asked to direct episodes and they refused-when Larry Hagman found out he raised hell and they allowed her to direct.

You would think with Duffy leaving and Bel Geddes returning, they would want to lock in as many original cast members as possible. Lucy’s storyline disappeared after Mickey Trotter, but surely they could have done something with her instead of sending her off to Atlanta with Mitch. And she should have been at Bobby’s funeral, she was close to him.

Lucy was such a waste of space from day one, though. Gary & Val should have had a hot to trot hunky son. Bonus points if he was gay and bedded Uncle Ray.

Like they would have done that in the 70's/80's.

that blond chips guy from the later seasons would have been a great Luke instead of a Lucy.

R425, you think Jenilee was paid more to not wear a bra and to see to it that her nipples were erect?

Whatever they paid Jen it was better than fighting with an ironing board once a week.

R429 Great casting! Luke Ewing would have set our screens on fire.

R414, I'm not sure why you think it was Pam who had a head for business, but I have to disagree. The only two female characters who were consistently depicted as such – not counting J.R.'s various "pals" like Marilee Stone, or later-season additions – were Sue Ellen & Donna. That said, considering Cliff ended up as a combo of Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos & the Koch brothers on the reboot, I think Pam would've been WAY more realistic than him! (Am I the only one who thought he was mainly there for comic relief of a sort?)

R422, I'm surprised *you* were surprised that they never mentioned it again. The dream season was the one unambiguous time that "Dallas" simply went WAY too far beyond the bounds of credibility. I would've been stunned if they *had* mentioned it. Much like similarly ill-conceived cliffhangers like the Moldavian Massacre and Fallon being kidnapped by aliens, I'm assuming the producers simply hoped people forgot about such embarrassingly bad lapses in judgment.

Along that vein: R423, I think you're too preoccupied with the idea of Katherine's physical location being important. You're also overlooking one aspect of the dream-season flipover: when, specifically, it began. As we know, Bobby was leaving Pam's house in the S8 finale when Katherine ran over him: he didn't die on impact, but passed away that night. Cutting back to S9's finale: Pam married Mark, but then woke up on what should've been the morning after – only to find Bobby, not Mark, in the shower.

Also: it was only *after* that point that Bobby finished showering and got ready to leave – and, yes, Pam was visibly nervous that Katherine was hiding around the corner ready to run Bobby over again. But here's the thing: in both S8 AND S9 – and extending into the S10 premiere – Pam's dream began *before* Bobby left the house. As such, Katherine was never there in the first place; that was all part of Pam's dream as well. (Better described as a nightmare, but still.) Everything *starting* from when Bobby left in S8 was included in the dream, which obviously covered all of S9 until the final 45 seconds or so.

R426 when they made Lucy a waitress, I think they just didn’t know what to do with her anymore. They still should’ve kept her though, if only to criticize JR to his face, which she was great at. Letting Tilton go the first time was one of the death by a thousand cuts the show was experiencing. Truly the beginning of the end.

If Pam was gonna rival JR in business, she should have been part of Ewing Oil.

That's what Bobby's death could have brought about. Leaving all his shares to Pam. I used to love how JR always called her Pamela or that Barnes woman.

I really liked how Pam went after JR in the second season episode when it was revealed Cliff’s girlfriend had died from an Illegal abortion. I loved when Pam cane at JR but it happened less and less.

In think it was the sane episode at dinner when JR implies cliff may be gay and Miss Ellie sternly says, “I don’t like the tone of this conversation.”

R435, to be fair, both Sue Ellen *and* Cliff ended up running (or co-running) Ewing Oil at various point. That was one of the few later-season plotlines I loved, given that J.R. was constantly apoplectic about letting a Barnes into the Ewing henhouse!

R437, Miss Ellie was always a "speak loudly and carry a big stick" type, but in modern lingo she was a TOTAL boss bitch at Southfork (yes, meaning as a compliment).

I never cared for Mandy Winger and she had the dumbest line when complaining about Cliff’s penchant for Chinese food. “My mouth is full of wax from all the containers!”

Mandy, you dingbat, you aren’t supposed to eat those.

Was Deborah Shelton the one in “Body Double” who was graphically killed by the huge power drill?

OH GOD I HATED MANDY!!!!!!!

R439 yes. I thought Mandy was great, and fit in with the fabric of the show. The one JR should’ve married instead of the hillbilly imbecile Cally.

I wish I was a fly on the wall when they thought up the Cally character and during the casting. She was fucking horrible. Better writing for her and better casting could have made it work in a great way. But fuck the one they cast and how dumb they made her...I just can't.

Mandy always sounded like she had just been fucked hard, just breathless and horny.

And she always walked bowlegged, like the man who fucked her had a horse cock.

No wonder Sue Ellen despised her more than any of JR’s other tramps.

I always thought Mandy should have returned for Sue Ellen’s last season, trying to steal JR from Cally. Sue Ellen sees this and decides she does NOT want Mandy as John Ross’ stepmother, so she teaches Cally to become a proper lady while working to get rid of Mandy. After JR dumps Mandy and she flees Dallas, he remarries Cally in the season finale, and Sue Ellen gleefully tells him she engineered the whole thing. I would have preferred that to the movie storyline.

Of all the women that played JR’s mistresses, Deborah Shelton was Larry Hagman’s favorite. In contrast, he hated that dyke Susan Flannery.

Someone, according to the Dallas E True Hollywood Story, came up with the idea of giving JR a young wife, after another divorce from Sue Ellen. I don’t know how, from this, they came up with Haleyville and hillbillies. I guess they were going for a fish out of water aspect with the character, but it failed miserably. And it weakened JR considerably when he didn’t burn the whole fucking town to the ground after what they did to him there. They truly ran the show into the ground with this shit writing.

[quote] And it weakened JR considerably when he didn’t burn the whole fucking town to the ground after what they did to him there.

This. And then the story line in which J.R. gets himself institutionalized and then couldn't get out of it anymore. That was beyond embarrassing for J.R., Larry Hagman and the big legacy of the show.

R433, no, we saw Katherine -- or some woman in a car -- outside Pam's house. She saw the lights go out.

After the lights went out, Pam and Bobby had sex, went to sleep, and the dream began.

Katherine was there before the dream began.

Killing Bobby and not leaving a better out was a HUGE mistake that really signaled the end of DALLAS.

When exactly did Bobby impregnant Jenna? After she got out of jail? Before?

The timing didn't work. I realize the writers were dealing with losing Susan Howard and pairing Ray and a pregnant Donna made sense. Sort of.

Frankly, I'm surprised (but not unhappy) that Bobby didn't go back to Jenna after Pam left Dallas -- all burned and scarred.

Priscilla was beautiful; loved her scenes where she sized up Katherine, told Pam off at the mechanical bull, and where she let Bobby go in Season 8 finale.

But Francine Tacker and Morgan were better actors.

[quote] And she should have been at Bobby’s funeral, she was close to him.

Meh, Lucy didn't bother to attend her dad's murder trial nor her mother's premature funeral. Did she ever meet her full siblings, Bobby and Betsy?

No, she never met Bobby and Betsy because in their universe, Uncle Bobby was dead (driving their father to drink again), whereas in hers, he was very much alive.

I did &5 like Sue Ellen going back to JE after she was cleared of shooting him and becoming a bitch again. Sure, it barely lasted but her character had evolved so much by that point, it was a big step back and made her seem kinda stupid.

*didn’t *JR

Get us an editing function!!!!

R446 it would’ve been natural for Bobby to go back to Jenna after Pam left, but I think Priscilla gave notice she was leaving at the end of the 87-88 season. They might’ve decided they were going to let Kanaly go at the beginning of this season for all we know, so they can pair both of them, and have them leave town. I always thought April was a better vixen than another one of Bobby’s wives, so they dropped the ball there too. So Bobby ended up with two dead wives lol. I personally didn’t give a shit, considering he refused to even look for Pam. Quite chivalrous to do this, considering she was the love of your life.

Yeah, April was great. I don't know why Priscilla left. With Vicky and Sue gone her character would have been on the ascendancy.

R452 Priscilla left to focus on her family. She left before the Naked Gun was a hit. I don’t know if they ever asked her back, but after April got killed, this would’ve been a good time for the return of Jenna. Or a recast Pam. I always thought Jaclyn Smith would’ve been a decent Pam recast. The role needed someone with beauty 10 on a 10 scale and star power. That’s why Margaret Michaels (played Pam for one episode after Victoria left) would not have worked. But they weary of the backlash that came with Donna Reed.

She did look a lot like Victoria though. I just never understood the killing of April. At that point she was about the only spice left on the show.

R454 Sheree Wilson voluntarily left. She was pregnant, and wanted to focus on her baby, like Priscilla. Plus I think both knew Dallas was a sinking ship and it was time to jump off. A lot of times there’s the pr excuse they give why they are leaving (true or untrue), and stuff going on behind the scenes that figure into the decision. This was definitely true in the cases of Barbara, Victoria and Susan leaving.

Thanks for that info. I didn't know. Not only did I like the character of April, but I'm also a big fan of Sheree J. Wilson.

After her first season on Walker, Texas Ranger, Sheree wanted to leave. They gave her huge dollars to stay.

Jenna was a better fit for Ray than Donna. She was fine with being the submissive wifey-poo and dabbling in her dress shop business. Donna was too uppity.

If that is true, Wilson should have stayed on for the last season that (a) had a reduced number of episodes already and (b) would have been the last anyway. Not officially, but the writing was on the wall. I wouldn't be surprised if she was let go after her contract ran out. An extension would probably have been too expensive.

I had a dream they used AI to redo the dream season fiasco and bring Patrick Duffy back in a less ridiculous and insulting way. This tells me I've been thinking about Dallas too much lately thanks to this thread. Also, thanks to AI, they added Carrie Fisher to the cast as amnesiac Bobby's new love interest.

R459 she was killed off (by Susan Lucci no less), very early in the last season. Plus she pre taped some episodes where Bobby hallucinates she still alive, which were a few that ran throughout the season. I’ve never heard anything that she was let go, but its possible. I’m sure the budget was in the crapper the last season. And they might’ve allocated some of her money to the guest stints by Lucci and Barbara Eden.

R459, believe it or not, Wilson was considered a regular cast member in the final season. She was credited in the opening credits in every single episode that season.

Hagman and Duffy's acting and producing salaries took up such a huge chunk of the budget that everyone’s episode count was reduced. Greatly reduced in the case of Howard Keel!

Hagman, Duffy - 23 episodes

Sasha Mitchell - 17 episodes

Kimberly Foster, George Kennedy, Ken Kercheval - 16 episodes

Barbara Stock - 14 episodes

Cathy Podewell - 10 episodes

Sheree J. Wilson - 7 episodes

Howard Keel - 4 episodes

R462 Keel should have been phased out completely when Barbara left. I thought Wilson and Podewell did more episodes, but it’s been more than 30 years since I watched this horrible season. I did like the reteaming of Hagman and Eden however.

I watched the very first episode of I Dream of Jeanie on YouTube today. Larry wasn't just good looking he was scorching hot. It lasted for about a year and he went downhill very, very fast. I'm going to assume he was a drinker.

R464 an alcoholic in fact. He had a liver transplant in 95. He would drink champagne all day on the Dallas set. So that says a lot about not being able to give it up even at work. I think he finally quit after the transplant.

Anyone know how old he was when Dallas started?

Born in 1931. They probably started filming in 77 so 46 yo.

And Bel Geddes was born in 1922, so basically Jock raped a 9 year old Miss Ellie,

After Jock's death they should have had Miss Ellie in a love triangle with Clayton and Punk Anderson. They could have written in the death of Punk's wife, it would have given him and Ellie something to bond over.

I would have loved a drunken, both parties, one night stand between Bobby and Sue Ellen.

Sue Ellen threw herself at Bobby in the sanitarium when she was drying out. He turned her down, but they could have had them get together once Pam got blowed up. It would've made for some fun tension between JR and Bobby.

Then Sue Ellen getting pregnant. Is it Bobbie's or J.R.'s? That would have been a classic story.

[quote] After Jock's death they should have had Miss Ellie in a love triangle with Clayton and Punk Anderson.

I would've found a love triangle between Miss Ellie, Rebecca Barnes, and Jessica Farlow far more believable.

A season of Miss Ellie as a GILF with a MUCH younger man would have been fun too. Barbara would have played shame so well.

It should have been Miss Ellie with speedo clad admirer Christopher Atkins, not Sue Ellen!

I would have preferred that too,

Uhhh, do I have say in the matter? Not a fan of gray pubes and wrinkled titties...

Well what do you think you look like when you get out of the water?

[quote]This. And then the story line in which J.R. gets himself institutionalized and then couldn't get out of it anymore. That was beyond embarrassing for J.R., Larry Hagman and the big legacy of the show.

Agreed. That entire storyline is what the kids today would call "cringe."

[quote]No, we saw Katherine -- or some woman in a car -- outside Pam's house. She saw the lights go out. After the lights went out, Pam and Bobby had sex, went to sleep, and the dream began. Katherine was there before the dream began.

R446, I still think you're nitpicking. I don't disagree in the slightest that the producers handled the entire "return from the dead" story – and, along with it, the hiring and rapid firing of Donna Reed – like J.R. treated each of his strumpets, but dwelling on a single point (whether Katherine was parked outside Pam's house all night) is a bit much. The messiness of also having to have to fire Donna Reed in advance of Barbara's return – after a traumatic illness – only to have Miss Ellie have *her* most traumatic story in the show's history (I think having one of her own children die before her counts) was appalling, and yet I don't see how else they could've done it. If the dream season was the show's biggest mistake, replacing Barbara Bel Geddes PERIOD was its second.

[quote]R452 Priscilla left to focus on her family.

Translation: "She left to focus on Graceland, which the Presley family had just opened to the public a few years earlier and which would soon bring her over $50 million per year in profit."

Can someone refresh me on how they brought Jenna in?

[quote]Or a recast Pam. I always thought Jaclyn Smith would’ve been a decent Pam recast.

I feel like I'm the only one here who was never a big Pam fan. Sue Ellen was always more interesting – constant drama & alcoholism helped – and Victoria honestly never had much in the way of range. I also wasn't much of a Lucy fan: it always seemed like the writers were straining to come up with interesting storylines. It certainly didn't help that her first one was sleeping with the ranch foreman while still in high school. (And that was before they knew about the incest part!)

[quote]Also, thanks to AI, they added Carrie Fisher to the cast as amnesiac Bobby's new love interest.

This definitely works for me!

[quote]I’ve never heard anything that she was let go, but its possible. I’m sure the budget was in the crapper the last season.

R459 & R461, I'd have to dig out my old research books to be sure, but I think Sheree was written out mainly because she was pregnant, not due to budget issues. (IIRC that's why she pre-taped a few posthumous dream sequences, and also why she was in the opening credits all season: she was allotted it per her original contract, which for some reason they didn't change.)

[quote]And Bel Geddes was born in 1922, so basically Jock raped a 9 year old Miss Ellie.

No. The actors' ages really didn't correspond with their characters' ages, and on "Dallas: The Early Years" – an attempted spinoff that didn't go anywhere, but is still considered canon – Jock, Miss Ellie and Digger are all shown at around the same age. Larry Hagman is technically old enough to be Patrick Duffy's father – they're just under 18 years apart – but J.R. & Bobby are only 3-4 years apart. (Also, as a reminder, Lucy was the product of 17-year-old Gary knocking up 15-year-old Valene. Different times, y'all.) Speaking of which...

[quote]Larry wasn't just good looking he was scorching hot. It lasted for about a year and he went downhill very, very fast.

I haven't seen "I Dream of Jeannie" since I was a kid, but Larry always looked seemingly normal on "Dallas," despite being a massive alcoholic (and he really did drink on set each day, every day - talk about a high-functioning alcoholic!). It's obviously a stretch to call J.R. "hot," but Patrick definitely was hot in his prime, and Larry believably looked like his slightly older brother nonetheless. (Thanks to a very obvious toupee and a fair amount of plastic surgery; he definitely got an eye job between seasons early on.)

[quote]Sue Ellen threw herself at Bobby in the sanitarium when she was drying out. He turned her down, but they could have had them get together once Pam got blowed up.

In the second reunion movie, they definitely teased a romance between Bobby & Sue Ellen at the end if a third one was made, but since the second crapped out in the ratings, that never ended up happening, and Bobby ended up with Ann on the reboot.

maybe part of the reason the second one tanked in the ratings is because the writers just ignored that Ray had sold his house and they didn't have more cast members back; Dynasty, which was always kind of fluffier than Dallas and Knots, had the good sense to do a reunion movie in which a lot of stories were tied up.

Blake and Krystle back together being the most important story; CBS could have thrown a pilot deal pickup guarantee, 13 episodes for sure at Victoria Principal for a Dallas reunion movie and reunite her and Bobby. The money shot would be Sue Ellen watching J.R.'s reaction to Pam and Bobby walking back onto (or let's face it, away from) Southfork.

Give the fans what they want.

R481 - Clearly I was joking that Jock was a child molester. Yes, actors real ages often don't match their characters' ages -- especially in soap land. Although, as it happens using your other example, there actually is nearly 15 years between Van Ark and Tilton.

Cliff was such a loser. It's hard to believe he got Grade A pussy like Afton, Mandy, April, and Marilee Stone.

R479 it’s not nitpicking. We saw a woman outside parked in a car before the dream started

When TBTB came up with the dream idea, someone should have said ok the dream started HERE - everything else is the dream

They all but revealed Mark being alive. The fact that he didn’t come back post dream season was a big miss.

Writing Pam out the way they did was horrible.

R485 I used to play the game of when the dream began when watching the last episode of that season too, but then I figured what’s the point. It’s not when it began, but even doing it to begin with. They fucked up big time by even going there with a dream scenario. It completely undermined the credibility of the show. Dallas was never perceived in the same way by taking the lazy way out.

As far as Victorias exit, yes it was horrible. Obviously some miscommunication, because Katzman was unaware she was leaving, so it felt tacked on and rushed. Instead of building up to maybe Pam leaving Bobby, and then leaving town (really the only logical way to go), they did this. I’m sure they thought they could get a nice cliffhanger out of it though. Victoria wasn’t a fan of it and for years she believed her character died. Obviously they went the long way around, but Pam did eventually die.

For you, r480:

Jenna first appeared, played by Morgan Fairchild, in season 2. She was the mistress pf a married politician, and asked Bobby for help when it blew up in the press. She then tried to seduce Bobby, using Charlie as leverage, until Pam forced her to admit to Bobby that Charlie wasn’t his.

She then appeared in the following season, played by Francine Tucker. She was now an editor at a local fashion magazine, so Pam was forced to interact with her. Charlie wasn’t around-she was in Italy with Naldo, who she said was a great father. While Pam was on a work trip to Paris, Jenna tried to seduce Bobby, who was fighting with Pam. It didn’t work, and Bobby and Pam reunited.

In season 7, Jenna reappeared, played by Priscilla Presley. She was now a cocktail waitress.

That's right, I do recall Hagman had gotten an eye job at some point. It was really obvious!

R488 - Hagman really was eminently fuckable in his younger days.

Don't most movie/tv sets use iced tea for whiskey/bourbon (so the actors don't get drunk)? Since Hagman was such a high functioning alkie, I wonder if Dallas used real whiskey/bourbon.

R489 In the reboot, during J.R.'s funeral, all of his exes were gathered around at the wake agreeing that J.R. was "hot as hell." They must have been looking at this.

How'd he hit the wall so fast? Maybe it's the recessive munchkin gene he got from his mother.

I don't know why the wig stylists gave Larry that horrible flat slab of hair on the front when his natural hair seemed a little wavy.

I think they did use iced tea for the bourbon and branch on set....but Hagman had a bottle of champagne always going.

Larry looked pretty good in season 7, he lost weight and was tan. There is a small scene between JR and Miss Ellie where he mentions losing weight (this is the season we first see the Southfork gym). His toupee looks more realistic too.

After that season, however,, he started putting weight back on.

I never understood why nobody did something about his eyebrows. I suppose they are supposed to make him look sinister, but they become Andy Rooneyesque in the later seasons and in the movies.

BASTARD!

To me, late year Larry Hagman always reminded me of Sam the Eagle...

Sue Ellen, Callie and Mandy were a respectable turnout, but dear Lord where were Sly, Marilee Stone, Holly Harwood, Valene (!), and most of all, Pam!

Poor Val, always misplacing her newborns.

You take that back!

R498 Pam died. Valence hated JR, so why attend his funeral? Holly and Marilee were sometime bed partners, but not really close to him. I will give you Sly. She should’ve been there.

Valene ^

Valene would've opened the casket and spat in his face. Missed opportunity.

Verna Ellers would've poured bourbon on the casket and set it on fire.

Hagman also lost weight at the end of Season 3, right before he got shot. In the early seasons, JR wore a lot of sans-a-belt jumpsuits to hide his girth. He looked like Major Nelson again when he was shot but then he gained it again.

I loved Marilee Stone, from her earliest scenes when she’d always smirk and make Sue Ellen uncomfortable at the Daughters of the Alamo meetings to being part of the consortium. She was a fun minor character.

[quote]maybe part of the reason the second one tanked in the ratings is because the writers just ignored that Ray had sold his house and they didn't have more cast members back; Dynasty, which was always kind of fluffier than Dallas and Knots, had the good sense to do a reunion movie in which a lot of stories were tied up.

R482, I agree that "Dynasty" had a much more important job in terms of tying up stories, but that's in part because its cancellation came as such a shock! "Dallas" was assumed to be a goner even early in its final season, and that's why the finale became nothing but a Joel Grey-hosted, alt-history-focused journey through J.R.'s headspace. The "suicide attempt" bit was little more than a hail mary. Even dumber, they had to retcon it *twice*: first for the reunion movies, in which J.R. returns after a few years abroad looking better than ever (and it turns out he didn't actually try to kill himself), and then again for the reboot, where we were expected to buy that J.R. had been in such a severely depressed state that they'd kept him locked for TWENTY YEARS.

"Dynasty" OTOH ended on multiple cliffhangers! When it ended, they had at *least* five characters on the brink of death: I know Alexis & Dex fell off of a balcony of some sort – and IIRC it was resolved in the Dex-free reunion via Alexis literally LANDING on him, which seems like she crushed him to death but walked away unscathed (!!) – and I know Blake, Krystina & Fallon had some issue as well. And yes, it was essential that they reunited Blake & Krystle, particularly considering how poorly most of the relationships on "Dallas" fared.

Finally, I think the second reunion movie underperformed simply because it arrived too late. By 1998, even its spiritual successors, "90210" and "Melrose Place," were on the skids. People had moved on to all of NBC's sitcoms, and by then even "The Sopranos" had arrived and introduced the world to the start of "Peak TV." (And as much as I love "Dallas," I love it for camp value, not true quality television.) The reason the second movie had a far smaller cast is because the original cast members' salaries – along with a pricey location shoot – consumed the majority of the budget. The producers had the original Southfork sets built again for the first movie – or at least the living & dining room – but VERY obviously faked it for the second one. That was the one and *only* time the Southfork house's interiors were used for the actual show, and indirectly why most of the action takes place at Ewing Oil and Ray's ranch.

One last bit re: Victoria that I forgot to mention before now: during the course of my research on the show, I found two separate sources that claimed that she'd secretly inherited an absolute FUCKLOAD of money, and that *that* was why she refused to do anything after leaving the show originally. (To frame it DataLounge-speak, one of the people said she's "even richer than Cher!" Which seems unlikely, but still.)

[quote] It’s not when it began, but even doing it to begin with. They fucked up big time by even going there with a dream scenario.

THANK YOU, R485! This is what I've been trying to articulate, but you did so better than I did.

I've recently streamed both Dynasty and Dallas. Dynasty was more fun but Dallas was so much better than Dynasty. The only really big thing against Dallas, and it's a big one, there were so many times they were so insulting to their viewers. The dream season being the biggest insult. The way they could have handled Bobby was easy and would have been entertaining. Bobby is somehow brain dead. Instead of subjecting him to the humiliation Miss Ellie hides him away with a staff in some cabin in the middle of nowhere. Several shots of Miss Ellie talking to someone without the someone being seen. Then in the series finale we see she's talking to Bobby. Lucy over hears some things and brings them to the attention of Pam. Pam starts digging around and having Miss Ellie followed Then when Pam finally finds Bobby, when he sees her, he has a flash of near lucidity. Bring on the healing. Bring on the reckoning for the once worshiped Miss Ellie. That's just one way.

[quote]I think they did use iced tea for the bourbon and branch on set....but Hagman had a bottle of champagne always going.

It may not have even been iced tea, but dyed water. If you're unfamiliar with how food & drink scenes are filmed for TV or movies, the "ice" in any given drink is nearly always fake. If they used real ice, it'd melt between takes – particularly under all the hot lights used for filming – and it would screw up continuity. AFAIK Larry was the only heavy drinker on the job, and he drank solely Champagne from what I've heard and always between takes in his dressing room or trailer.

[quote]I don't know why the wig stylists gave Larry that horrible flat slab of hair on the front when his natural hair seemed a little wavy.

At least on the reboot, Larry was balding both in his widow's peak area as well as his crown, and he wore a toupee for the entire duration of the show, so I think it was a matter of pre-Propecia hair loss, not his possibly wavy natural hair. But yeah, it was obviously a toupee for anyone who knows what to look for on them.

[quote]I never understood why nobody did something about his eyebrows.

DEAR GOD those eyebrows!!! I NEVER understood why he couldn't at least *trim* them. I know it's not unusual for men to get bushy eyebrows when they get older, but that doesn't mean *viewers* need to see that shit!

[quote]Sue Ellen, Callie and Mandy were a respectable turnout, but dear Lord where were Sly, Marilee Stone, Holly Harwood, Valene (!), and most of all, Pam!

JFC: back-to-back mentions of two of the most irksome elements of the reboot. Oy. The problem with having Cally in particular show up is that the reboot had already retconned too much – most notably ZERO mention of his son James! I would've *loved* to have seen Sly or Marilee in particular, and I have no idea why they didn't show up (both women are alive and still working). That said: Valene? Her showing up would've made little sense, given how much J.R. (and the rest of the family) despised her. Also, she actually did show up in a few reboot episodes along with Gary, showing off that Jocelyn Wildenstein-level plastic surgery nightmare of a face.

Finally, it was just ... well, weird that they brought back the only two still-living stars from the original show (Steve & Charlene) solely for that episode. What, Bobby & Ann didn't invite them over for dinner on occasion? And since Ray had obviously returned from his "Swiss trip," why not use him as a character?

[quote]I loved Marilee Stone, from her earliest scenes when she’d always smirk and make Sue Ellen uncomfortable at the Daughters of the Alamo meetings to being part of the consortium.

R506, this may be a first: I'd actually *forgotten* all about that! No idea how, but yes, those episodes were always fun. (They reminded me a bit of Phoebe Wallingford on "All My Children" and her resident-snob meetings of the Daughters of Fine Lineage.)

Finally: R508, I definitely agree "Dynasty" was more fun (and particularly in terms of camp), but "Dallas" was the better show. OTOH the two women essential to your idea – Barbara & Victoria – said "no" to returning time and time again. If anything, Larry & Leonard may have pushed too *hard* to get them back! I've heard scattered details, and I don't know if anyone will ever piece them together, but Larry apparently became "occasionally nasty" on the final three seasons due to his worsening alcoholism, and did the kind of stuff nowadays that would probably be enough to get him cancelled. (I do know Leonard had more than one misconduct accusation tossed his way, but since he passed away back in the '90s, I assume it went nowhere.)

R508 if Bobby was brain dead, I think she and Pam would’ve pulled the plug. Plus it’s not something Miss Ellie would have hid from the family if Bobby was alive. And Lucy wasn’t even a part of this season. The key to all this would’ve been Katherine. They should’ve let her live as the red herring out of this whole thing. Katherine mows him down and drives off. He flatlines in front of the family, but Katherine pays off hospital staff to whisk him away when he doesn’t actually succumb. Katherine nurses him back to health, but keeps him prisoner while doing so. Bobby escapes and goes back to Dallas.

that would work. I just wanted one juicy story for Lucy.

Barbara & Victoria – said "no" to returning time and time again.

That was Victoria. Once she left she never looked back. Barbara left, but came back, when they agreed on her salary.

Definitely Val and Sly for JR's funeral.

They should have given Victoria Principal whatever she wanted to come back for revival.

Give us that happy ending we'd been denied back in 1991.

The Dynasty reunion gave us Blake and Krystal and other happy reunions. Knots ended with Val and Gary and Mac and Karen and kids playing in the cul-de-sac. Falcon Crest ended with Angela giving a speech after Richard married Dr. Beth Correll. (or whoever she was -- oh, yeah, Lauren!)

Dallas was the best of them all and yet we got cheated out of closure.

R513 the executive producer of TNT Dallas was a hack. She and her writers got so many things wrong in the Dallas universe it was ridiculous. Victoria put out a statement saying she wasn’t interested in returning when they used her name to drum up publicity for the show with the possibility of Pam coming back. Reportedly they weren’t even considering asking her back anyway, and had Bobby marry Ann. Victoria doesn’t even need the money and I think she was wise to avoid it. And how do you explain where Pam has been for over twenty years if she ended up not dying from cancer? Avoiding Bobby and Christopher that long? The closure was killing her off which was sad, but made sense.

[quote] Bobby is somehow brain dead.

I think that was a given starting with the pilot.

R514, it may have made sense, but people tuned into Dallas and other soaps for fantasy.

Dallas's best years were all about J.R. scheming to break Pam and Bobby up and the look on his face when his schemes failed was the payoff.

Imagine if one of the reunion movies from the 1990s ended with all the major players reconvening at South Fork -- Sue Ellen reveling in J.R.'s reaction to Pam and Bobby reuniting. Donna and Ray bond after a crisis with Margaret.

Lucy and Mitch are happy; Cliff and Afton and their daughter reunite. Bobby reads a cable or I guess at that point email from Clayton and Miss Ellie. They're coming home.

J.R. pulls off some deal with the cartel where everyone -- especially him -- emerges as a winner.

A little too sugary? Maybe.

But it beats that It's A Wonderful Life bit they did and then JR maybe shoots himself.

R516 I wouldn’t call the show fantasy in its peak, but it was a very fun nighttime soap. They moved it into the fantasy realm with the horrible dream explanation and it never recovered. Overall I like your idea of it ending it on a high note (compared to what we got), but budget constraints and cast issues put a damper on all this. Even ending it with Pam and Bobby reuniting would’ve been enough for me. Without Victoria’s involvement, they could’ve used a double, plus camera angles of her arriving at Southfork, but not showing her face, and ending it that way. Or Bobby and or Christopher run into her by accident somewhere, and she comes back. They definitely could’ve got creative with it. Even a recast for the very last episode would’ve been fine. That doesn’t solve the problem on what they would’ve done with Pam on the TNT version, where a recast would’ve been necessary. Victoria made the role her own, so it would’ve been hard. Like I said, it would’ve had to have been a name actress as beautiful as VP, a la Jaclyn Smith, who is actually a Texan, born in Houston.

The finale of Knots Landing was a loving thank you note to the fans. Everyone is hanging around outside Happy as can be. That was nice but it didn't feel complete without Abby. It was still nice though. THEN Abby pops out of the car. She's the house buyer they were wondering about. Abby is back. Everyone is home safe and tucked in. We can go to bed in peace.

...

R519, bingo.

This ending is why KNOTS was in most ways the best show.

Tho if I had to choose I'll always go with DALLAS>

R516, I'll clarify; from the first episode it was all about JR trying to break up Pam and Bobby and viewers tuned in to see true love prevail.

I wish producers had given us a happy ending.

Hi Abs.

I'm liking season 11--JR scheming his way to overtake Westar and Sue Ellen wise to it. I even enjoyed the Dandy storyline with Cliff. I could've done without the Pam Mummy storyline though. And the Clayton and Laurel Ellis storyline is an exact retread of the Jock heart attack/friendship with Julie Gray (except it's played out over way more episodes).

What's up with Priscilla Presley in this season though? Was she pregnant IRL? They have her dressed in all of these gigantic sweater dresses and her hair makes her look like Mrs. Swan. Maybe the hair and wardrobe people just hated her and it was the late 80s with their baggy clothes.

And we get to see a young Brad Pitt as annoying Charlie's boyfriend.

In a show less afraid of strong female characters, Marilee Stone would have evolved into a major character. I just loved her scenes and there was a lot of potential there. Imagine if she'd become involved with Bobby, or even Ray, and schemed against J.R. behind their backs.

[quote]Definitely Val and Sly for JR's funeral.

Sly? Yes. Val? Only if she went to piss on his grave. (Really, it makes zero sense that Val would attend, given Gary's overall estrangement with the Ewings.

[quote]R514 the executive producer of TNT Dallas was a hack.

R513, if you're referring to Cynthia Cidre, I managed to track down her email address while the reboot was still on to tell her about a number of details she got wrong. To my considerable surprise, she emailed me back! I'd noted that they were no longer using the "EWING 1," "EWING 2," etc. plates shown on the original show. (I think only John Ross had a vanity plate, but it was a weird one with an l (lowercase L) instead of an I (uppercase I), for "EWlNG 6.") In her response, she noted that each of those plates had already been taken by other people in Texas, and that that was the reason they couldn't use them.

THAT'S when I knew she was a hack. Had she bothered to do any *research*, she'd've known that the LITERAL EWING NAME stems entirely from David Jacobs' original trips to Dallas itself in advance of writing the show's original miniseries. Ewing Mercedes-Benz was the only Benz dealer on Dallas's north side at the time, and whenever an owner brought in a vehicle for service, they let them use a loaner – and at the time they only had a half-dozen or so. Jacobs had already decided that the Bobby character should have a cherry red SL convertible, and when he visited the dealership, he noticed that each of its service vehicles had a "EWING 1," "EWING 2," etc. plate.

After the show's miniseries was greenlit, Jacobs met with the dealership's owner to ask if he could basically "borrow" their vanity plates for the show, with the considerable enticement of offering to literally *rename* its main family after the dealership! That was an offer too good to pass up, and they did exactly that. I doubt either side knew just how long it'd last, but the deal remained intact until the original show was cancelled. All that said, it was obvious that Cidre knew none of this, but if *I* could figure it out, she sure as fuck should've as well!

[quote]Victoria put out a statement saying she wasn’t interested in returning when they used her name to drum up publicity for the show with the possibility of Pam coming back. Reportedly they weren’t even considering asking her back anyway, and had Bobby marry Ann.

Correct. They knew they didn't have the budget to bring back three of the original show's biggest stars, but had no problem "suggesting" that the idea was "under consideration." (Btw Cidre originally wanted to use the original actors as glorified guest stars, and focus entirely on the younger generation, but thankfully the network called bullshit on that one.)

[quote]And how do you explain where Pam has been for over twenty years if she ended up not dying from cancer?

There's always the old soap-opera standbys: amnesia and coma. Or they could've retconned some sort of scene set in the '80s, where it's "revealed" that J.R. had some type of vicious blackmail on her, and she'd been forced to remain outside the US ever since they faked her death (also established via retcon).

[quote]Barbara left, but came back, when they agreed on her salary.

I know, but after leaving the show, she was its *only* former lead star who refused to even give *interviews* about it, let alone show up at a fan convention or something. She retired somewhere remote (IIRC somewhere in the Northeast?) and was rarely seen again before she passed away, except for small appearances to promote the children's books she authored during her retirement.

[quote]R514, it may have made sense, but people tuned into Dallas and other soaps for fantasy.

R516, true, but considering the amount of bitching on here about the dream season, I'd argue it'd be at least the show's second-biggest stretch to bring back Pam after a full decade (or nearly so). Also, while people tuned into "Dallas" for fantasy, that doesn't change the fact that they had to stick to an inherently limited budget. The first miniseries went well *over* budget, thanks to an elaborate location shoot – including a scene depicting J.R.'s (second) death, this time by blowing up his car on an actual freeway (which is exactly how they filmed it) – and bringing back a huge part of the original cast. The reason the second one was much more limited – and had far fewer stars – was also due to budget constraints.

If anything, I'd argue the "fantasy" here is that Victoria would've ever – under ANY circumstances – returned to the show. I meant to mention it earlier, but she actually *did* give them a counteroffer when they asked her to come back: she wanted the same salary (and back-end participation) as Larry Hagman. Considering this was back when women were *never* paid more than men on TV, that was a total nonstarter. (That, plus by then the show was on a downward spiral that it never escaped.)

[quote]The finale of Knots Landing was a loving thank you note to the fans. Everyone is hanging around outside Happy as can be.

True, but DLers' fondness for this show has always been surprising, considering that it's literally set among suburban hausfrauen. In any event, "Knots" was more akin to a nighttime soap in a setting far more attuned to daytime dramas. I agree that it was stupid for "Dallas" to end on a cliffhanger, but featuring a sudden reappearance of Pam simply getting out of her Lexus, as if time had stood still, would've been absurd in its context.

[quote]R516, I'll clarify; from the first episode it was all about JR trying to break up Pam and Bobby and viewers tuned in to see true love prevail.

R519, I'm afraid this isn't true. Yes, the original show was intended to be centered on Pam, and obviously J.R. spends years trying to break them up. The *reason* the writers threw out their entire original "bible" for the show – in which neither Sue Ellen nor Cliff were regular characters btw – is because CBS did a shitload of viewer testing after the initial miniseries, and they heard two things very clearly: J.R. was the breakout character, and one specific episode put Sue Ellen (and Linda Gray) in the pole position as the show's "other" main female lead.

In case you forgot, it's an episode set amidst a blizzard of some sort, when a gang of bad guys breaks into Southfork and takes everyone there hostage. We already knew that Sue Ellen had been Miss Texas, but in the episode, the kidnappers force her to put on her bathing suit & sash from the competition and make her smile through her tears. Female viewers in particular felt a *huge* amount of sympathy for her as a result of the trauma she experienced both during the kidnapping – and, of course, throughout her entire marriage to J.R. – and the writers also clued in that adding her *and* Cliff as series regulars would a) give Sue Ellen a chance at "revenge" against J.R., and the worst possible form of it was ABSOLUTELY sleeping with a Barnes, and b) keep Pam as the show's "good girl" who'd never consider cheating on Bobby. (If she'd turned out to be a strumpet or tramp, I seriously doubt there'd be such fond feelings for her today.)

The J.R.-Sue Ellen-Cliff love triangle is what made "Dallas" must-see TV (long before NBC coined the phrase), and it may not have ended up as a serialized drama at all without it – meaning if they'd stuck to their original plan of having Pam remain the main lead.

[quote]What's up with Priscilla Presley in this season though? Was she pregnant IRL? They have her dressed in all of these gigantic sweater dresses and her hair makes her look like Mrs. Swan.

R523, kudos! You caught something I totally missed! I knew Lisa Marie was born long before "Dallas" started, but I forgot that Priscilla had a child with her second husband (okay, partner, but still) as well. Her son Navarone was born in March 1987 – unknown if he suffered permanent psychological damage from being tortured by classmates over his name – and the 11th season would've started filming a few months later. I'd assume Priscilla still had a fair amount of baby weight: she was over 40 by then, and your skin simply does *not* snap back as quickly (if at all) then. (Following her departure from the show after its 11th season, she got a tummy tuck.)

I was just going through my notes trying to find something about the show, and I spotted a page I somehow totally overlooked *and* forgot about! What I overlooked, and apologies if anything I've written is contrary to what's below, but if so this has the accurate info:

1. While it was described as a "mutual" decision for the media, Linda Gray was let go from the show due to major budget cuts – the same ones that necessitated Ray's exit after only five episodes in the same season.

2. The producers brought Lucy back twice, only to let her go twice, and for the same reason: they couldn't think of any good plotlines for her. (This was why I never liked the character, but I didn't know it was why they let Charlene go.)

3. For everyone irked about Donna Reed being fired: do you know she *died* barely six months later? Pancreatic cancer. I'd totally forgotten. (But, if anything, this is simply more proof that hiring her in the first place was a huge mistake, and she might've only been able to finish another half-dozen episodes before her cancer took a turn for the worse.)

4. Leslie-Anne Down was the main actor (meaning one in the opening credits) with the shortest tenure on the show: only eight episodes total, in the 13th season.

5. Dack Rambo's exit from the show was a lot more complicated than I recalled. While Hagman denied it, Dack claimed they were at loggerheads because Larry knew he fucked men. What I didn't know is that Hagman *and* Rambo were both raging alcoholics during the latter's final season, in which he exited halfway through. It's unclear if Hagman was actually a homophobe (but wouldn't exactly be a shock, given the era), or if Dack assumed it incorrectly in a likely intoxicated state. (He eventually entered Betty Ford for treatment.)

6. Finally, I'm VERY pissed at myself (I know: "MARY!") for forgetting this part: James wasn't the only Ewing child erased in the reboot. Cally ALSO had J.R.'s baby! And James left the show after finding out *he* was a dad, too – also making J.R. a grandfather on the original show!

I AM NOT AN ALCOHOLIC!

I'm revisiting season 5 now and the "Pam Goes Nuts Because She Wants a BAYBEEEEE" storyline is still my least-favorite ever. Jesus Christ, lady -- go volunteer with underprivileged kids and get a grip!

It's also really funny how with the new set designs, Ellie is suddenly whipping up something in the kitchen every single episode, whereas previously Raul and Teresa must have done all the cooking. Do any other 80s kids remember BBG's soup commercials?

[quote] He eventually entered Betty Ford

Ewww.

[quote] Really, it makes zero sense that Val would attend, given Gary's overall estrangement with the Ewings.

Not to mention her overall estrangement from man-whore Gary. Of all of them, Val would most likely have gone to Bobby's funeral since she seemed to genuinely like him. I don't remember now, but did Gary and Val do a crossover when Munchkin Lucy married that feather-haired boy Mitch Cooper?

R452- April was not great.

By the late 1980’s the show was unwatchable.

The show was at its peak in the early 1980’s. When Pam moved out of Southfork in 1983 after her mother died after the plane crash ( that was the saddest moment on the show)Dallas started to decline.

R532 Yes, Val and Gary got off their asses and flew to Dallas for Lucy's wedding.

[quote] R452- April was not great.

Not sure what r452 said, but I thought she was the best happening in the last third of the show's run. April had a much more developed personality than Pam. She could take on J.R. when she had to but managed to stay on his good side. Pam fit in better because she functioned as an archetype of a girl that needed to rise while suffering. So her character can be much easier labeled. But by the same token her range was limited by that. April could do whatever she wanted. She could own a business, deal with Jeremy Wendell and get battered by a stalker. So yes, I found her more interesting than Pam, but would have preferred both on the show at the same time against each other.

It was that LOOK that Sue Ellen gave J.R. at the end of the Brian Dennehy episode that inspired the show's writers to expand Sue Ellen's character.

The show never lost sight of J.R.'s efforts to break up Pam and Bobby.

He and Katherine schemed to make it happen. That letter prompted Bobby to give Pam her freedom at Thanksgiving Square.

For the next two years, we watched and waited and yearned for them to get back together. Their reunion was short-lived. The wedding that finally happened in Season 10 was a bit anti-climactic. Exactly WHEN did Bobby impregnate Jenna?

Bobby is a pig. He springs Jenna out of jail and presumably fucks her as soon as they get to Southfork (even though he spent 2 episodes with his tongue down Pam’s throat).

Then he showers, goes to Pam, proposes to her and fucks her.

Pam and Jenna should have both dumped him and raised their kids together as a lesbian couple.

I can't give you an answer right now.

R534 - Did Gary give her away? That was after all what Val did best.

Dora Mae is dead to all of us. Who is running the Oil Baron's Club now?

Duh, Cassie has taken over.

I'm still watching Season 5. I'll never get over Bobby Ewing straight-up buying a baby. And such an ugly baby.

Though Jim Davis is so conspicuous by his absence, Miss Ellie's beefed-up role as family enforcer is great to watch.

[quote] Miss Ellie's beefed-up role as family enforcer is great to watch.

Christina! Bring me the shotgun!