I don't think the other members of the What's My Line panel, liked Dorothy Kilgallen

She was far more conservative than they were. In addition, she sometimes put into her column things that were said backstage, which John Charles Daly didn't care for.

I don't think Bennett, John, Arlene et al. actively disliked her, but they didn't socialize off the show.

Now Hal Block — one of the early regular panelists — was actively loathed by everyone else.

She was never in the legitimate theatre.

Been down the same hole myself. It's such a crystal ball into the past and all its "glory." Racism, sexism, snobbery, fashion, music, fads like hula hoops and The Twist. It's easy to hate Dorothy. She's a condescending bitch with a lethal hunger to win. I often watch her in her later seasons and think, "You'll be dead soon."

[quote]She's a condescending bitch with a lethal hunger to win.

They needed someone like that on the panel. Arlene was there to have fun and entertain, as was Bennett. Steve Allen was there just to show how smart he was (and he was, just not as smart as he thought of himself). They needed someone who took the game seriously. Enter Dorothy in a wiglet to save the day.

“Did I run into you in to you in a cafe in Rome?”

She was humorless. Not at all crabby, just no fun. The others could make each other laugh, offstage as well, I’d think.

No one was openly hostile, but the you're not one of us subtext is off the charts. I see the other cast members backstage having martinis after the show and Dorothy is alone in her dressing room, crying.

A chinless woman has to be tough.

R6 nails it. Dorothy was absolutely humorless. She could be quite nasty in her column.

Bennett is so smug when he guesses the mystery guest. I liked him, but not as much as he did.

Steve Allen thought he was the funniest man in history. An obnoxious man. Never missed a chance to make a joke — but they weren’t witty and always pulled focus to him. Robin Williams did it so much better decades later. Williams wanted to make people laugh. Allen wanted people to look at him.

Robert Q. Lewis was charming, sweet, affable. Quite a winning personality.

Fred Allen was also a great sport. Quite fun and very funny. I quite liked him. Genuinely funny.

Hal Block. A terrible panelist. He could never guess the player, whether celeb or common man. He had a personality that was … rough around the edges. A blowhard. A real life Fred Flintstone or Homer Simpson.But he was not without his charms. I liked him. His humor was bordering on crass and they canned him. They wanted a more sophisticated mystique, I guess. They certainly got it. But Block was BITTER.

Arlene. Absolute perfection. Nothing less.

John Charles Daley. As gracious a game show host and personality as ever has been. Only Jack Barry of “Jokers Wild” came close.

I really like RQL.

I always laughed at Steve Allen. Not Robin Williams.

Though I don't get why you compared them. R9 Nothing about them was similar.

Robert Q. Lewis was the gay panelist. An open secret, but he had to keep up appearances in order to remain on television. But it explains why he never lasted anywhere. He made producers nervous. Not a good time to be gay in show biz.

R1's comments were spot-on - at least according to Bennet Cerf. If you haven't already, you should look up his extended radio archives interview where he talks about his experiences with WML.

Over the years there were some great -and not-so-great- guest panelists. Peter Ustinov was delightful. So was David Niven. Tony Randall put up a good front, but he really was terrible at the game. Groucho Marx created absolute chaos whenever he appeared.

Damnit -Now I need to go back and rewatch a few dozen episodes! So much better than the drivel on TV these days.

I will say she never comes across as particularly warm.

OP Never got that vibe

was Martin Gabel liked?

Martin Gabel moments on What's My Line?

Seems to me Dorothy had a sense of humor. She laughs in those collection of clips on R15.

I like Dorothy. She was very sharp and observant and I agree with the person above who said they needed one panelist to take the game seriously. I've never read her column, so if I ever did that would probably color my opinion of her, but I enjoy her presence on the panel.

It's not so much about not having a sense of humor and more about somewhat lacking self awareness.

One of my favorite (Arlene's) moments on the show was when they had a turkey farmer on an episode just before Christmas, the point being it's a Holiday product. So Dorothy said something like "But I eat turkey all year round", to which Arlene quipped: "But you're rich, Dorothy!" The baffled look on Dorothy's face was priceless.

Just doing some Googling. It seems like her column went from a gossip column to some kind of obsession with the JFK murder and Ruby and Oswald.

I don’t think OP, knows how to use a comma.

Dorothys' obsession with the JFK assassination got her murdered.

Her hate fest with Frank Sinatra was epic.

She was also a drunk and a pill popper.

I'd say she was the most interesting member of the panel.

She had an extramarital affair with Johnnie Ray and reportedly started making out with him in a nightclub that came close to sex.

I had a slightly different take on Bennett (beyond his endless punning and leering at women) after reading his memoirs.. His friendships and encounters with Shaw, Joyce, Stein, Gershwin, Lawrence, Rodgers, etc. were fascinating. And he was responsible for making the Modern Library such a powerful collection of world literature.

R24, He fathered her third child, who her widower Richard Kollmar disowned after Dorothy’s death.

“In 1957, Dorothy published a scoop about John Daly's negative feelings about the television news career of Mike Wallace, then in his late 30s. Bennett Cerf said in 1968 that John never forgave Dorothy for doing that during the eight years she lived after it. If you want to judge the possible effects of alcohol on what Dorothy said, you have to look at her microfilmed newspaper because she spent most of her working life making comments for it. "What's My Line?" took up less than 90 minutes of her time each week.“

Oh My God... Look at Dorothy!!

[quote]According to lawyer and researcher Mark Shaw, Ray's relationship with Dorothy Kilgallen produced her youngest child Kerry Kollmar, whom her husband Richard Kollmar disowned after Kilgallen's death in 1965. In two books that Shaw has authored, he claims that Kilgallen remained faithful to her husband for 13 years, ignoring rumors of his extramarital affairs because she did not witness evidence of any of them during that time frame. After years of infidelity, Kollmar became careless, to the extent that in 1953 he brought a male lover into the third-floor master bedroom of his and Dorothy's new home, a five-story townhouse on Manhattan's East 68th Street. After Kilgallen caught the two men in a compromising position, she and Kollmar decided to stay married strictly for business. Their business included a talk radio show they broadcast from home every day that brought them large salaries and that promoted Broadway shows produced by Kollmar. "Dorothy and Dick", as their radio listeners knew them, discussed Ray's singing style on their program, according to a profile of Ray in the Saturday Evening Post edition dated July 26, 1952.

In 1954, Kilgallen gave birth to a baby boy who was photographed for magazines and newspapers with her holding him, never with a father. Decades later, Ray often mentioned Kilgallen to his manager Alan Eichler and remained devastated by her unexpected death in 1965. According to Eichler, Ray never spoke about or acknowledged the rumors that he fathered Kilgallen's third child. Throughout the 1980s when Eichler managed Ray, historians of popular music did not consider Ray important enough to research his private life, so Eichler was not familiar with the eyewitness accounts that Mark Shaw discovered years later, and Eichler did not ask Ray about possible fatherhood.

Kerry Kollmar

Johnnie Ray

Cerf was a shady character.

He had some publishing business that involved fraud.

Richard Kollmar

Another Kerry Kollmar

Kerry got the family chin.

Kerry Kollmar could not look any more like Johnnie Ray.

Watching all those clips of WML on youtube has given me years of pleasure over and over again.

I would disagree with the posters who are implying that Arlene and Bennett didn't take the game seriously. They just had a lighter touch when asking questions.

It's telling that Arlene, in her long storied life, never made any public comments about Dorothy.

I'm not a big fan of Cynthia Nixon but she'd be great casting as Dorothy Kilgallen in her later years.

Wally Cox was the absolute worst guest panelist on WML ever.

Later career Steve Allen was annoying but the 1950s/1960s Steve Allen was a lot of fun.

Yes, later in his career Allen was an uber-conservative.

There is something that makes me love Kilgallen even more now that I know she had a thing for fucking gay men.

TV obits. No Dorothy

Dorothy vs Paar.

Sorry, here it is.

I watched some earlier seasons where Dorothy was sitting next to Bennett Cerf, but then at some point Arlene was sitting there and Dorothy was over on the end. I wonder what happened there.

I liked when she showed up in her Coronation ball gown.

[quote]I watched some earlier seasons where Dorothy was sitting next to Bennett Cerf, but then at some point Arlene was sitting there and Dorothy was over on the end. I wonder what happened there.

Her pussy stank.

This keep me up until 3am last nite.

Watch Salvador Dali exasperate John Daly.

I think John Daly was kind a fool. Mispronouncing things, telling Doris Day he loved her in Young at Heart, which she had not started filming yet.

Dorothy smelled like garlic and cheap gin.

Little toddler Kerry makes an appearance.

Enjoyed the clip, R44, fun to see these showbiz tempests in teapots, now jusifiably forgotten.

I love Paar, interesting that he was a big TV star considering what a drama queen and closet case he seems. Was he hiding in plain sight? Or was he just a fey straight guy?

Why does the updated pic of Arlene in the links to both R43 & R44 look nothing like her?

Bennett Cerf was also close to Frank Sinatra.

Was Dorothy in rehab in 1961? She was the mystery guest in this episode after being out ill for a while. Rumor was she had been in rehab. Debbie Reynolds on the panel, so young.

R55, Frank was one of Bennett’s pallbearers.

R53- He seemed like a qween to me

R58, He would cry on the air often.

Randy Paar, Jack Paar's then-teenaged daughter, was one of three - the others being Johnny Carson & Broadway columnist Earl Wilson - to whom Ed Sullivan said the Beatles had dedicated their songs when they first performed on his stage Feb. 9, 1964.

R60 . . .

FUN FACT

Lauren Bacall was in the audience that evening, having taken Leslie Bogart and Lorna Luft to see the Beatles perform.

One of these "celebrity" panelists was my godparent. So I grew up around a lot of them when I was very young, too young to remember much except one thing: they all drank like fish. Morning, noon, and night. Amazing they could appear so sober. They used to let me have the olive from their martinis. I probably was half inebriated for my first seven years.

Cerf was the most competitive about winning. Kilgallen was ever-so unsteady later in her run, and her arriving drunk in that one episode (They all enjoyed the weekly social center they occupied, but Dorothy was the most obvious. The state of her marriage, the circumstances of her death: One can hear Sinatra laughing at it all.

No one touched the hem of the evening dress of Miss Arlene Francis - Mrs. Martin Gabel - who had no need of the layerings of Miss Kitty Carlisle (Mrs. Moss Hart) or the misstepping Miss Jayne Meadows (Mrs. Steve Allen).

Did Arlene ever have a stage hit, beyond ONCE MORE, WITH FEELING? She tried so so hard. Anyone ever see her onstage?

R63, Dorothy Kilgallen was the most competitive, even Bennett said so.

One evening after the show, he heard Dorothy crying in her dressing and when he entered and asked what was wrong, she said she was crying because she did not guess one contestant’s occupation that evening.

Bennett used to scour the trades and papers to see what celebrities were in town, then guessed after he had heard a few responses, already having had an advantage.

They ALL did that. Dorothy's jobs were to report on celebrities in town (both her newspaper column and her radio show) and Arlene had a radio interview show with show folk. And they all knew what Broadway shows were playing or soon to open, often because they had attended opening night.

R66, Any autistic 12-year-old could have done the same.

[quote]Robert Q. Lewis was the gay panelist. An open secret, but he had to keep up appearances in order to remain on television. But it explains why he never lasted anywhere. He made producers nervous. Not a good time to be gay in show biz.

I read somewhere that Arthur Godfrey, who had RQL as a regular on his show until RQL left for his own show, once sniped, "And we all know what the Q stands for."

I remember watching the show as a kid. I remember when Dorothy Kilgallen died and I distinctly remember the episode after her death with everyone saying a short eulogy in remembrance.

But I never appreciated the show until turned up on YouTube and I can watch it as an adult. I'm so impressed with Arlene Francis....what a wonderful presence.

[quote]I read somewhere that Arthur Godfrey, who had RQL as a regular on his show until RQL left for his own show, once sniped, "And we all know what the Q stands for."

And "Q" is what we're supposed to accept being called nowadays, because it is "reclaimed." What a bunch of horse shit.

Robert Q. Lewis had severely pockmarked skin.

For television, the makeup department had to apply extra thick makeup to his cheeks.

What I disliked the most about Kilgallen was that when she guessed the celebrity contestant's identity she would suck up to them in the process of identifying them: e.g. "Are you that marvelous flame-haired princess of stage and screen currently starring on Broadway in 'Time Out for Nurses,' Miss Rhonda Fleming?"

It also bugged me that both and Francis always asked the celebrity women like Fleming (for example) if they were famous for being great beauties, which would supposedly stump the celebrity guest who could not say anything in response without looking egotistical. Then John Daly would have to say gallantly, "Yes, I will say our celebrity contestant is celebrated for her stunning beauty," and the celebrity contestant would mime being relieved at not having to say that about herself. They NEVER asked this, btw, of less-than-beautiful celebrity women like Eleanor Roosevelt or Elsa Maxwell, sparing everyone great embarrassment--but also making me suspect the fix was on.

Is it Miss or Missus?

I recall an episode where guest panelist Henry Morgan made a snide remark while Bennet was giving a long-winded introduction for John Daly. Then John came out and through a polite smile put Henry in his place.

[quote] I remember when Dorothy Kilgallen died and I distinctly remember the episode after her death with everyone saying a short eulogy in remembrance.

At the beginning and the end.

Someone up-thread mentioned Debbie Reynolds. She was always a delightful guest, playing with accents and doing a Gabor impression. She always makes me smile (and I'm a curmudgeonly bastard). Really, all of What's My Line? made me smile. Intelligent and/or educated people demonstrating wit while being civil and using good grammar. Nothing like that today...

Debbie's segment begins at 18:00.

Apropos of nothing, I just watched a 1971 episode of To Tell the Truth and both Kitty Carlisle and Peggy Cass were wearing hot pants.

So if Kilgallen did kill herself… why? Because she was an alcoholic trapped in a marriage to a gay man?

I've never heard that Kilgallen killed herself. The conspiracy junkies insist she was murdered because she had the goods n who killed JFK.

I remember one episode (from reruns, I’m an eldergay not a Methuselahgay) where Robert Q Lewis speculated breathlessly that the mystery guest was “the greatest living comedienne, Lucille Ball.”

It was actually Lucy AND Desi.

Those top-tier game show ladies of the 1960s...Dorothy Kilgallen, Kitty Carlise, Arlene Francis, Betsy Palmer, Bess Meyerson, Peggy Cass ....were a delight to watch. And then 1968 happened and things were never the same.

In a telltale sign he was gay, Robert Q. Lewis portrayed himself as a horn dog on the show.

Exactly, and it is painful to watch.

[quote]Those top-tier game show ladies of the 1960s...Dorothy Kilgallen, Kitty Carlise, Arlene Francis, Betsy Palmer, Bess Meyerson, Peggy Cass ....were a delight to watch

I wonder what they put in the water on those sets. While Dot obviously died young, and Peggy Cass died in her 70s, Kitty, Bess, and Arlene all lived into their 90s and Betsy very nearly did.

Peggy Cass doesn't get discussed enough. Lesbian?

Peggy was a Democrat. Garry Moore teased her about it a couple of times which made me dislike him.

[quote]What I disliked the most about Kilgallen was that when she guessed the celebrity contestant's identity she would suck up to them in the process of identifying them: e.g. "Are you that marvelous flame-haired princess of stage and screen currently starring on Broadway in 'Time Out for Nurses,' Miss Rhonda Fleming?"

I would imagine they were required to say things like that, just like today when celebrities go on talk shows to promote something.

r70, I could have written your post myself!

Like, you, I watched WML as a child and was fascinated by all of it but never really appreciated how genuinely charming, witty and disarmingly bawdy Arlene Francis was until I started watching the reruns on youtube about 20 years ago. She was just a delight and it's no mystery why she was so beloved in her time. Like many of those early TV celebs who seemed to be famous for simply being famous, she was an incredible conversationalist, knowledgeable, spontaneous and witty. A lost art on TV talk shows now.

So many of the movie stars who appeared as mystery guests revealed a sense of humor that they were never allowed or encouraged to show in their movies. The young Elizabeth Taylor (pregnant, I think with one of her Michael Wilding babies) and Robert Wagner (in 2 appearances) are both hilarious.

OTOH there was an incredibly handsome Charlton Heston (promoting The 10 Commandments) who seemed to have no sense of humor whatsoever.

[quote]Like, you, I watched WML as a child and was fascinated by all of it but never really appreciated how genuinely charming, witty and disarmingly bawdy Arlene Francis was

"The Lovely Star of Stage and Television, Miss Arlene Francis!"

But not movies, r91, until Billy Wilder told his casting people that he wanted an "Arlene Francis type" to play James Cagney's wife in One, Two Three! and he wound up casting Arlene. And then, Arlene was cast as the dubiously pregnant wife of Edward Andrews in Send Me No Flowers.

Call me crazy but I find the very young Steve Allen in his early WML appearances kind of nerdy sexy. Totally get why he was so popular back then.

Johnny Carson was also so cute when he was a guest panelist in the 1950s, prior to his Tonight Show fame.

And I may be in the minority but I can hardly bear watching Fred Allen when he was a regular panelist. Sweet man, I'm sure, but rather an unfunny bore for me.

[quote]And then, Arlene was cast as the dubiously pregnant wife of Edward Andrews in Send Me No Flowers.

Turn in your gay card!

That was "The Thrill of It All." James Garner, not Rock Hudson.

Dorothy was the Mo’Nique of What’s My Line.

Oooops! You're right, of course!

I don't think Arlene made any more movies after that one, anyway....

[quote]So if Kilgallen did kill herself… why? Because she was an alcoholic trapped in a marriage to a gay man?

Because she was born without a chin, poor dear. Eventually it caught up with her

Often Dorothy would wear large sparkly hoop earrings, a very "out there" choice for a Waspy upper Eastside matron. I wonder if she thought they distracted from her chin?

Listen here you queers. This post is about me, Dorothy Kilgallen, not Miss Arlene “La-Di-Dah” Francis. Get it? Me! Dorothy!

More than a few times Dorothy would ask a Mystery Guest if he'd been flying with her in an airplane when his address book flew out the window. Was it ever established to whom she referred?

Here's the appearance of Desi and Lucy as the mystery guests, referred to above. One of my very favorites.... second only to Roz Russell.

Maybe Sinatra was right after all.

I want R94 to be the father of my children.

I was a contestant on Password when I was in grad school in LA. Peggy Cass was my favorite partner. Down to earth, she took time to carry on conversation with me during all of the commercial breaks, unlike some of the other stars. She made the show relaxing and fun.

Kitty Carlisle and Peggy Cass should have done a summer stock production of Mame.

[quote] I recall an episode where guest panelist Henry Morgan made a snide remark while Bennet was giving a long-winded introduction for John Daly. Then John came out and through a polite smile put Henry in his place.

R75 That was very near the end of the 17-year run of the original WML series. When I saw that episode I thought to myself, “Henry Morgan won't be on any future shows.” I was shocked when he appeared again on the next-to-last show. He was really rude to Bennett who had helped make WML the popular show that it was.

Then, during the 7-year run of the subsequent syndicated daily version of WML, Henry was a semi-regular panelist (Bennett was not a panelist on the syndicated version). Goodsan and Todman must have liked Henry for some reason. Henry was a professional curmudgeon. He was fired from one of his own shows for insulting the sponsor. It was a testament to Arlene’s grace that she good-naturedly sat next to him on so many syndicated shows. Then again, Arlene could have sat next to Atilla the Hun and made him likable.

[quote] Really, all of What's My Line? made me smile. Intelligent and/or educated people demonstrating wit while being civil and using good grammar.

R77 I agree. It felt like being at a party on the Upper East Side with them, and they were playing WML rather than charades. While all the troubles and changes of the 1950s and 1960s were happening, there they were every Sunday night, usually live, doing what they did since the beginning of the series. It was quite reassuring.

[quote] Like you, I watched WML as a child and was fascinated by all of it but never really appreciated how genuinely charming, witty and disarmingly bawdy Arlene Francis was until I started watching the reruns on YouTube about 20 years ago.

R70 and R89 Same here. In case you don't already know, a new biography of Arlene has been published, entitled “All Three Channels” by Jennifer Bitman. It's great. One of the nice things I learned was that Arlene and Martin were truly in love with each other. They sometimes sarcastically sniped at each other on WML, which made me wonder about them as a couple, but it’s clear from the book (which was written with the help of their [now-deceased] son Peter), that their marriage was a happy one.

R90 The episodes with Ronald Reagan (as the mystery guest or a panelist) reveal what a dumb airhead he was. He had already developed some of the speaking mannerisms he used as president, such as the smile and saying “well…” before figuring out how to answer a question, and the hack-sounding laugh when he didn’t know what he was talking about but kept talking anyway.

R93 I agree with you about Steve Allen and Johnny Carson on WML.

Fred Allen was a very popular radio comedian who had a face made for radio. TV was his downfall. He was quick-witted (as were Arlene and Steve) and that’s probably why he was a regular panelist on WML until he died. When Steve left WML because he had so many other shows to do, Fred Allen was a natural to replace Steve for his quick wit.

R102 Dorothy was found dead in the wrong bed in her house, wearing something she never wore to bed, with makeup still on, and reading a book about Sinatra she had already read, holding it upside down. The latter may have been a mafia calling card because of the feud she had with Sinatra.

Perhaps the other panel members disliked a big drunk. Should have changed her last name to Kilfith.

R100, Anthony Perkins

On an oral history recording Bennett made before his untimely death, he revealed that the amount of money CBS paid them for thirty minutes was surprisingly high.

WML? was a big money maker for years, each week it would make the Nielsen Top 10.

Since it's been mentioned several times herein, here's a link to the playlist of the Bennett Cerf oral history. If you've read this far into this thread you'll definitely enjoy listening to all of it.

[quote] Peggy was a Democrat. Garry Moore teased her about it a couple of times which made me dislike him.

I read somewhere, though, that he himself was a Democrat. I believe it was in the context of his support for Gene McCarthy in '68.

[quote] When I saw that episode I thought to myself, “Henry Morgan won't be on any future shows.” I was shocked when he appeared again on the next-to-last show.

That "later" episode was a taped show, one that preceded in time the live show that revealed his rudeness.

R117 Thanks for explaining that. I’m glad Goodson and Todman didn’t do that to Bennett after Henry was so rude to him, particularly so close to the end of the series.

I always heard that the book found with DK's corpse was Robert Ruark's novel Something of Value and was a suspicious clue because she had already read it.

I always wonder why in the entire run, they never increased the $50 prize! Talk about cheap.

The original show ended in 1967.

$50 in 1967 = $466.18 in 2024

That chinless wonder could suck like a Hoover.

[quote]Should have changed her last name to Kilfith.

Oh, dear. Killfi[bold]f[/bold]th, r112.

R65, of course Cerf said that. Kilgallen played the game seriously and competitively, in a sometimes pathetically needy way. Cerf, however, applied his arrogance and shiftiness to an ownership on the show that Kilgallen never approached. But you get the points.

"The WML panelists often disqualified themselves as well. If they knew after just a few questions about the identity of a mystery guest or a regular guest, they tended to let the others play rather than revealing whom it was. With the mystery guests, it wasn't uncommon for the panelists to ask "Are you ________?" because they had a hunch, and they weren't always correct when they did this.

"The exception to this was Dorothy Kilgallen. Here's what Bennett Cerf had to say about it:

"'Another thing that infuriated us with Dorothy Kilgallen were the mystery guests. Sometimes they would have a very famous person on. Well, the audience wanted to see that mystery guest and him or her play the game for a bit with us. So we had established sort of an unwritten law that we'd let the questioning go around at least once before we picked off the mystery guest, even though we knew the minute he opened his mouth who it was-- just so people would have a little chance to see him. Not Dorothy Kilgallen; Arlene and I would purposely ask some silly question, knowing who it was. Dorothy would immediately identify the guest with some seemingly innocent question, often having seen the person at a restaurant the night before. She'd say, “Did I see you at 21 last night having dinner at the next table to me?" or something like that. Then she would get a yes and the audience would say “How brilliant.” Arlene and I could have named the guest before and we got angrier and angrier, as she kept showing off this way.'"

R119 Thanks; I got the details of the Sinatra connection wrong. Here’s what Mark William Shaw wrote in his book, “The Reporter Who Knew Too Much: The Mysterious Death of What's My Line TV Star and Media Icon Dorothy Kilgallen”

[quote] The book was The Honey Badger by Robert Ruark, a journalist, author, world traveler and big game hunter. He was the same Ruark who wrote a column criticizing Frank Sinatra. He said the crooner had frolicked with mobsters during a trip to Havana in 1947.

I thought Daly was rude when Carol Burnett was on and Bennett asked if the mystery guest was a beautiful woman, and Daly replied “no”.

Actually, r126, that moment on Burnett's appearance was a little more complicated. Certainly one of the most awkward moments in WML history though played for laughs at the time.

r108, do you remember about that new Arlene Francis bio, does it quote Arlene commenting about Dorothy?

Let’s be honest, Carol Burnett has never been a beautiful woman.

Carol Burnett’s shtick was the ugly duckling man hungry girl.

R128 I read the book a few months ago and don’t recall any comments about Dorothy. I searched the Kindle version and didn’t find any comments, either. Interpersonal feelings mentioned in the book are more about her family relationships than her professional ones.

I don't watch WML reruns a lot - if I do, I just watch the celebrity segments. But I did happen to see that Carol Burnett episode. That was awkward. But (I could be wrong) I thought: back then there was an accepted, realistic definition of a beautiful woman. Today of course you have to pretend every woman is physically attractive. It's not realistic but then that's our culture now.

What about the whistles and catcalls that would accompany the appearance of a young female non-celebrity contestant as they signed in? Even in the 1950s, it seemed so out of place on an otherwise classy show. A sign of the times tho.....

They LOVED her, what are you talking about?!?!?

Today it's gone the other way and it would probably be acceptable for a male contestant to get whistled at but not a female.

It's funny. I hate Steve Allen but loved him as a panelist. Especially when his wife was on with him. They had clever banter. Her deadpan sarcasm played really well off of Steve. Especially the beautiful airplane saleswoman episode.

[quote]What about the whistles and catcalls that would accompany the appearance of a young female non-celebrity contestant as they signed in? Even in the 1950s, it seemed so out of place on an otherwise classy show. A sign of the times tho.....

I can remember one episode where a heavyset woman (IIRC, her occupation was that she was some kind of Irish folk dancer) appeared, and when John gave the panelists a guess at her occupation, Arlene came out with "She works at a slenderizing parlor!"

Now, I would have expected something that bitchy from Miss Kilgallen, but it seemed like not the kind of joke Miss Francis would make.

Either way, it was a comment that would have gotten the studio burned down if she'd done it today.

I hated the Groucho Marx episodes. He was one of those comedians who didn't have an off button. Jerry Lewis was surprisingly low key for him when he was on the panel. My favorite episode is when Frank Gifford is on. A very young Frank Gifford was f****** beautiful. Then when Arlene guessed him she didn't know his position and she said half back full back I don't care what they call you you have a beautiful bag and you could tell she was so horny for him LOL.

R136, Jayne Meadows always wore the cheapest looking wigs.

I agree with R138 regarding Groucho. I adore him and think he's brilliant, but he doesn't fit on WML. The show grinds to a halt whenever he's on the panel.

Like Frank Gifford, another mystery guest who surprised me with his good looks was Paul Anka. I'd only known him in his older, balder days, but he was absolutely dreamy in his youth. No wonder he was a teen idol. He was smart, too, returning as a panelist on WML and was a top-tier Password player.

R138, I hated the shows with Paul Winchell and his fucking puppet.

Heavy-set guests were always prone to cause awkward humor from the panel.

Beards, which were rather uncommon in the 50s and 60s, also tended to provoke titters.

I always liked seeing Tony Perkins on the show, whether as a panelist or Mystery Guest. And Tab Hunter, too! I think this might have been when they were a couple.

R96 Arlene was in the film version of Arthur Miller's All My Sons (1948) as the neighbor of the main family. She did make one other appearance on film (after The Thrill Of It All) in Billy Wilder's Fedora.

Never got the big deal about Frank Gifford's looks. Not my type, I guess.

Arlene interviewing Jackie Kennedy in 1957. Arlene isn't very good and Jackie's answers don't give her much to work with.

The Paul Muni appearance was one of the weirder celeb ones.

Maybe it was the other panel members who murdered her, they so disliked her.

Nah, if I would have wanted to kill Dorothy, I would have had my maid drop a dumbbell on her head from our balcony.

I love how the fashions and hair styles changed over time.

Dorothy and Arlene looked so old with the dowdy hair and gowns of the early 1950s.

10 years later they looked 10 years younger. I imagine advances in studio lighting helped too.

IMHO 1964-1966 was peak fashion. Especially those episodes in '66.

John Daly's successor on the syndicated version, Wally Bruner, married one of the contestants.

Did we waltz together at the Waldorf for the March of Dimes?

Actual question posed by Dorothy. Who could stand to be around that?

R120:

[quote] I always wonder why in the entire run, they never increased the $50 prize! Talk about cheap.

R121

[quote] The original show ended in 1967. $50 in 1967 = $466.18 in 2024

$50 in 1950 (when the show began) = $649.89 in 2024.

I think R120's point was that in the entire run of the show the prize was never increased. In spite of inflation, or the fact that the show became more successful and could afford to give a bigger prize.

I just watched an episode with Wally Cox and he annoyed me. He couldn't turn it off. Also someone asked a question if his occupation had something to do with him being an Indian.

Whenever there were two mystery guests together, they had to share one chair.

[quote]Also someone asked a question if his occupation had something to do with him being an Indian.

Is something wrong with that?

I love how JPD would invade the personal space of contestants to discuss a response with them in order to cover up the microphone. The panel teased him when it was a beautiful young woman but he did it just as often with men.

It will never fly today and I bet it makes the more autistic DLers cringe in disgust but it adds to the party games atmosphere, like you’re attending a sophisticated soirée in Arlene’s apartment.

JFK was dreamy.

[quote]I love how JPD

Who?

I never thought of whispering in a contestant's ear as invading their personal space, or even thought about it, but then I'm over 60.

I seem to remember that CBS went to color in 1966-ish? Did WML switch that year too?

I liked that the visiting panelists were often not show biz types: James Michener, Van Cliburn, John Lindsay, Eliot Roosevelt, etc.

[quote]I liked that the visiting panelists were often not show biz types: James Michener, Van Cliburn, John Lindsay, Eliot Roosevelt, etc.

I remember a weird one with Conrad Hilton.

And I seem to also remember Miss Kilgallen going full-tilt Catholic over Cardinal Spellman.

Was Bennet Cerf a s how biz type?

[quote]I never thought of whispering in a contestant's ear as invading their personal space

It’s more him physically placing his body between the contestant and the desk and draping his arms about. I assume that the microphones were quite strong.

[quote]but then I'm over 60.

That’s nice, dear.

In all the many years the show ran and then in syndication, they never seemed to work out the kink where the chalkboard moved sometimes when the contestant was writing their name. They couldn't find some way to secure the chalkboard?

[quote] Now, I would have expected something that bitchy from Miss Kilgallen, but it seemed like not the kind of joke Miss Francis would make.

Arlene was plenty bitchy, but she was usually excellent at disguising it as jocularity

I guess I'm in the minority but I was never very fond of Arlene. Not hate - I mean I could take her or leave her. That musical voice and forced conviviality.

R166, Some of those original signed chalkboards were posted on eBay.

[quote]R80 I've never heard that Kilgallen killed herself.

The cause of death was sleeping pills and alcohol. Sometimes people accidentally overdose, but (maybe because my family’s prone to depression) that traditionally signals suicide to me.

[quote] I seem to remember that CBS went to color in 1966-ish? Did WML switch that year too?

It did, but only the b&w episodes survived.

[quote]Wally Cox was the absolute worst guest panelist on WML ever.

He was unbelievably bad. I watched an episode from the 1950s last night on Buzzr, and, when it was his turn, he just sat there, looking glum, unable to think of a single question to ask, remarking, at one point, "I'm not very good at this." John Daly had to ask him whether he wanted to pass. I wondered whether that was his only appearance on WML or whether the producers were crazy enough to ask him to return.

The funniest exchange ever on WML. And with Bennett hosting in place of John.

[quote]I seem to remember that CBS went to color in 1966-ish? Did WML switch that year too?

Buzzr stopped showing the B&W episodes at one point, switching to the syndicated episodes from the early '70s, presumably because they were in color and people don't like to watch B&W. They just don't have the same spark. Arlene is still fun, but Soupy Sales is no Bennett Cert. Broadway's Larry Blyden was one of the hosts. Lately, Buzzr has been showing B&W episodes again, starting at 4 a.m., along with B&W episodes of "To Tell the Truth" and "I've Got a Secret." This time, they're including the original commercials. My favorite WML commercial is the one in which a woman performs an interpretive dance celebrating the glories of Stopette.

[quote]I love how JPD would invade the personal space of contestants to discuss a response with them in order to cover up the microphone.

I don't recall ever seeing a contestant show any sign of discomfort over JD leaning into them.

[quote] Lately, Buzzr has been showing B&W episodes again, starting at 4 a.m., along with B&W episodes of "To Tell the Truth" and "I've Got a Secret."

I was excited about this development ... until realizing they were just recycling the same dozen or so episodes of each of the shows.

I didn't know that, R176. I've only watched a few so far. Very disappointing.

As for the WML episodes, R177, they're all from the brief time Fred Allen was a panelist.

[quote] I don't recall ever seeing a contestant show any sign of discomfort over JD leaning into them.

No one said they did.

[quote]My favorite WML commercial is the one in which a woman performs an interpretive dance celebrating the glories of Stopette.

There goes perspiration.

Also, Mr. Stopette, with Man-Power

I think the full slogan was, "Poof! There goes perspiration!"

There's an old B&W episode in which Dr. Jules Montenier, the inventor of Stopette, was the mystery guest. He doesn't enter and sign in. The segment opens with him already seated next to John Charles Daly. That's because he had lost a leg in a car accident.

They did that static opening several times over the years. When Martyn Green (famed Gilbert & Sullivan interpreter who had lost a leg) was a panelist, and whenever anyone was on the panel who had difficulty walking. Can't remember -did they do it with Judy Garland that time when they feared she wouldn't be able to make it through the episode?

^ Not an WML panelist/host, but allowances were also made for Goodson/Todman regular - & polio sufferer - Bill Cullen.

R182 No.

All of the 1950 - 1967 shows are on YouTube.

Bennett was a show biz type in the sense that he published many books by show biz types, including the scripts of many Broadway plays, was friends with Rodgers and Hammerstein, Lerner and Loewe, Moss Hart, Eugene O'Neill, Gershwin, etc. He also talks about attending many opening nights—and Ginger Rogers was his wife's cousin! AND was married to actress Sylvia Sydney.

YouTube has dozens and dozens of them. Even some originally in color, but shown in b&w.

I'm glad no color versions of the original survive. The original WML is one of those shows that just works better in BW. It adds to the mystique.

R186 manages to bury the lede for all time. You are both factually correct and literally obtuse, all at the same time.

r185, you, or anyone here here can correct me, but I believe there are at least 2 early years' worth of WML episodes that are lost forever and therefore have never been posted online. Like maybe somewhere between 1951-53.

I'm hoping I'm wrong. I'd love to finally see them.

There are not many big stars who never appeared on WML but among them are Cary Grant, Clark Gable, Marilyn Monroe (Bennett was always guessing her name in the mid-50s - huge fan!), Marlene Dietrich, Spencer Tracy, the 2 Hepburns and, I'm sure a few others.

Also, Mary Martin, which seems bizarre as she was a NYer at that time and appearing in hit Broadway shows. I guess she just wanted her Sunday night off.

Not to mention Greta Garbo.

[quote]I'm hoping I'm wrong. I'd love to finally see them.

I'm currently watching the Debut Show. They're on YouTube. What I've learned is that Dorothy is the OG, she was on since episode 1. It seems that Bennett and Arlene didn't come until later.

They never even dared guess Garbo's name, They knew better.

Yes, the first season has always been available to watch. It's a couple of years after that is lost.

I don't think Jennifer Jones was ever on WML.

Katharine Hepburn appeared on almost nothing - she did one or two Lux Radio Theaters and very few other radio plays. Her appearance on Dick Cavett was a big deal because she had never been interviewed on a TV talk show. Tracy was similar.

Another lost episode.

Bennett was a HUGE cultural figure in the US in the 1950s, only glorified, of course, by his weekly appearances on WML. And he had his fingers in every branch of culture and politics and science and sports through publishing bios of every sort of contemporary celebrity as well as representing the authors of many of the most awarded and well-read fiction and non-fiction, plays and poetry of the time. And his tastes in those areas ranged widely from low brow to high brow and I'm confident he'd be the first to admit it.

He loved pretty women, or "girls" as he called them back then, thinking it was flattery. He divorced his first wife actress Sylvia Sidney after just a year in the 1930s because he admitted he was jealous of all the attention she would get when they went out together. He railed on the program, sometimes rather humorously, about rock and roll, the Twist, Bible epics, and 1958's shapeless sacque dress.

Humphrey Bogart never appeared on WML?

It took until 1967 for Frank Sinatra to appear as a mystery guest, and then they had him join the panel.

The producers must have promised Bennett never to have Sylvia Sidney as a mystery guest, even though she was active on Broadway during the run of WML?.

There is a second Betty Grable mystery guest appearance after she took over the lead in Hello, Dolly! that is lost and a third appearance by Lauren Bacall as the mystery guest is also lost.

Ginger Rogers was the mystery guest too often and she was always guessed right away by Bennett.

r197, what's the deal with that lost episode and is it available to actually watch in its entirety?

[quote] a third appearance by Lauren Bacall as the mystery guest is also lost.

And that appearance had all the FLAVAH!

It's tragic.

[quote]It took until 1967 for Frank Sinatra to appear as a mystery guest, and then they had him join the panel.

Sinatra would not appear on the show with Dorothy there.

Lauren Bacall was a mystery guest in 1953, but did not appear again until after Dorothy Kilgallen’s death in 1965.

Kilgallen angered Bogart and Bacall with the coverage of his illness in her column and Bacall never forgave her.

One of my favorite mystery guest sequences, Burns and Allen. They start at 17:00. Sadly, they aren't as remembered today as they should be. Their TV show ran for eight seasons, and was the longest-running TV show (then) in history when it went off the air. It was the second US TV show to be exported to the UK (first was Amos 'n Andy).. In this clip, Gracie is in character as the ditzy wife.

R172 Wally Cox was the ONLY panelist I had to fast-forward through in watching 17 years of the original WML and 7 years of the syndicated version. That’s how bad he was.

R170 Dorothy’s body had alcohol, Seconal, and tuinal when she was autopsied. She didn’t have a prescription for tuinal, and there was evidence it had been injected rather than ingested.

Dorothy died in Manhattan, but the police investigation and autopsy were done by a precinct in Brooklyn. That was not standard practice. The precinct in Brooklyn may have been corrupted by the Mafia.

After Dorothy went to the big pharmacy in the sky they had a semi-replacement for her. She was on quite a lot. I HATE her. I can't remember her name though. She was sort of a Broadway type. She spoke like she thought she was above everyone. Maybe her name is Pamela....ugh.

Suzie Knickerbocker was on the panel quite a few times after Dorothy died. Suzie (née Aileen Mehle) was from Texas and became a society columnist as Dorothy had been. I liked Suzy on WML because I found her to be camp. There’s a sweet episode in which there’s a second mystery guest who’s Suzy’s son Roger who secretly came home from the military early. Suzy didn’t guess it was him, and was both shocked and ecstatic when she found out it was her son.

Phyllis Newman, maybe? (for R208)

No it ain't Suzie. I have to find out now. Stand by.

Phyliss fucking Newman.

R207 blah conspiracy blah …Jesus

Ah yes, Phyllis “Giggles” Newman.

It was Barbara Feldon who shamelessly - & unsuccessfully -lobbied to replace Dorothy.

Was Don Ameche ever on WML? I didn't like him on TTTT, he asked questions like a Prosecutor trying a murder case.

^Yes, & his track record on picking the real person was really bad. I never saw him on WML.

I love Polly Bergen but when she was on TTTT she irritated the fuck out of me.

I could never understand why Phyllis Newman was a celebrity, other than she was Adolph Green's wife, and she understudied for Judy Holliday in "Bells Are Ringing."

^ She DID win a Tony.

For what? The best usherette?

^ She won the 1962 Tony for best featured actress in a musical for Subways are for Sleeping.

Patricia Neway won the same prize for a much better known show, and that didn't make her a household name,

The blackboard was a piece of BLACK construction paper in that frame so it could be easily removed between contestants and didn't have to be erased.

The week after Dorothy died, Barbara Feldon's manager husband called Mark Goodman and started his campaign for her to take Dorothy's place on WML.

Goodman was a bit taken aback and just told him they were going to take some time to name a permanent replacement......and Barbara was never asked back to be a panelist.

[quote] Patricia Neway won the same prize for a much better known show, and that didn't make her a household name,

Naming someone who won the same award who didn't become a household name is kinda moving the goalposts. Phyllis Newman was more than just someone's wife and/or au understudy. And she clearly was a personality.

^If you say so, honey.

[quote]Patricia Neway won the same prize for a much better known show, and that didn't make her a household name,

But did Patricia Neway beat out BARBRA STREISAND for the Tony? I did, bitches.

[quote] WML? was a big money maker for years, each week it would make the Nielsen Top 10.

"What's My Line" was never in the Top 10 for any of the seasons it ran.

[quote] But did Patricia Neway beat out BARBRA STREISAND for the Tony?

What am I, chopped liver?!

R226 I was a kid in the 1960s. You weren't

Phyllis Newman was a very popular celebrity. She was Johnny Carson's first guest when he took over the Tonight Show and appeared often on the show after that. She was bright, bubbly and someone the public liked.

She did every game show and variety show, she was very much a household name and a fixture on TV through the decade.

Dorothy was going to bust the Kennedy assassination case wide open after she went to interview Jack Ruby? She was excited about it. "“I’m going to break the real story and have the biggest scoop of the century,” she told her ­lawyer." She was the only reporter allowed to interview Ruby and she had completed an 18-month investigation. J. Edgar Hoover hated her. Right before she died, a mystery man named Ron Pataky entered her life, good looking, and began to romance her. Dorothy was smitten. (She wasn't used to being romanced by straight men.) I think he was leading her on and might have been related to the Mafia, back when the mob, the FBI and the CIA were working together. He was the last person to see her and then he vanished. Or something like that. So yeah, I don't think she killed herself. She just knew too much.

I just watched an episode with Arthur Godfrey. The audience went insane when he came out. I had no idea who he was, so I had to Google. That is one of the reasons why I like the show, discovering all these people. The more I watch, the more I like Dorothy.

Dorothy and mystery man Ron Pataky shortly before her death.

Yes, R232, Arthur Godfrey was HUGE back in the day, on both television & radio. Totally forgotten now. I can't watch A Face in the Crowd without thinking of him.

No, R231, like Sgt. Schultz, Dotty knew nothing.

The one with Liz Taylor cracked me up. Her southern accent!

Arthur Godfrey played Doris Day's daddy in one of her lesser effort, "The Glass Bottom Boat," which at least featured Paul Lynde in drag.

R230 I second what you wrote. And I liked Phyllis Newman. Btw she got a second Tony nomination for Neil Simon's play, Broadway Bound (as Aunt Blanche). She also got a special Tony for her humanitarian work.

The movie that is supposed to be based on Godfrey was The Great Man

I interviewed Phyllis late in life in her Central Park South apartment. She was a friendly, self-effacing good sport, especially when I told her I had seen her in Frank Loesser's PLEASURES AND PALACES, which closed out of town. Sondheim adored her (although she never appeared in one of his shows, except for FOLLIES IN CONCERT.

Phyllis always seemed to look down on the contestants.

One of my very earliest memories of TV is "Arthur Godfrey Time", a morning show. Something my mother tuned in to, I guess I hadn't even started kindergarten yet

[quote]Dorothy and mystery man Ron Pataky shortly before her death.

Ironically, he looks a little like JFK in that photo.

[quote]All of the 1950 - 1967 shows are on YouTube.

They've been collected in order from the best possible prints by a guy who runs an obsessive WML? Facebook group. He even discovered a previously-thought-lost episode of the show and made it available.

[quote]I love Polly Bergen but when she was on TTTT she irritated the fuck out of me.

That makes two of us! I always liked her, even when she was selling her turtle oil cosmetics. I loved her in an otherwise meh Broadway revival of "Follies," in which she sang "I'm Still Here" and was nominated for a Tony. But I couldn't stand her on "To Tell the Truth." She tried waaaay too hard to always be the center of attention. She actually slowed down the game with her camera hog antics.

I had to Google Ron Pataky and I found this. Fascinating if conspiracy theories are your thing.

Johnny Carson was also a pill on "To Tell the Truth." He acted as though the show was beneath him and used it as a vehicle to crack jokes, often being rude and condescending to the contestants when he questioned them. I watch old episodes on YouTube sometimes but always skip the ones he's on.

[quote]That makes two of us! I always liked her, even when she was selling her turtle oil cosmetics. I loved her in an otherwise meh Broadway revival of "Follies," in which she sang "I'm Still Here" and was nominated for a Tony. But I couldn't stand her on "To Tell the Truth." She tried waaaay too hard to always be the center of attention.

That's exactly how I felt about Orson Bean, who would stretch out his clever-boy antics so long that he often didn't get to ask a question before the buzzer rang.

In later life he campaigned against same-sex marriage and became a Rush Limbaugh fan. When he got hit by a car and died I wasn't upset.

I much prefer the original TTTT to the original WML.

I believe Polly Bergen also made a concerted effort to replace Dorothy on WML I think I read it in WML producer Gil Fates' book about the show, I'll have to hunt down the book, There's probably tons of dish in it for all you bitches.

R248, Orson Bean’s death was gruesome. He was hit by the first car that leveled him and then a second car ran over him and basically beheaded him.

FUN FACT

Orson Bean appeared opposite Phyllis Newman in the Broadway musical Subways are for Sleeping for which Phyllis won a Tony, beating Barbra Streisand.

I have that book, R250, & don’t recall there being anything about Polly Bergen seeking to replace Dorothy. She had long since left TTTT on her own accord, so I don’t see her then being interested in joining another panel show.

We all should be so grateful that the kinescopes of the great Goodson-Todman shows were saved.

[quote]although she never appeared in one of his shows, except for FOLLIES IN CONCERT.

She would have to do as Stella in Paper Mill's FOLLIES, r240.

From the "Orson Bean is dead to me!" thread:

[quote]When I was very young I appeared on To Tell the Truth pretending to be a young scientific genius. The panelists were Kitty Carlisle, Peggy Cass, Orson Bean, and Tom Poston. Afterward everyone was very nice to us, except Mr. Bean, who was an asshole,. and even at that age I could see that the others didn't like him much.

[quote] [R226] I was a kid in the 1960s. You weren't

Yes I was, you idiot.

r250, I have the book in front of me now and on page 110, recounting the weeks after Dorothy's death, Gil Fates says:

".....one truly gorgeous and terribly bright singer-actress got me on the phone and chewed me out for ten minutes because we didn't offer her Dorothy's permanent place on the panel. "And deep in your hearts," she wound up her diatribe "you guys know that I'm the best God damned panelist you ever had on your show."

Fates politely disagrees with her and she responds: "You're a bastard." she said and hung up. Five minutes later her husband was on the phone. "You've got to forgive her. Things haven't been going well. She's terribly upset."

Fates never names the "terribly bright singer-actress" but that sounds exactly like Polly Bergen, not Barbara Feldon. Was Feldon EVER described as a singer-actress?

Sorry, my post should have been addressed to r253.

[quote]The movie that is supposed to be based on Godfrey was The Great Man

[quote]Harris's investigations reveal Fuller's relationship with Carol Larson, the alcoholic singer on his show,

Also, r253, FWIW, according to the appendixes at the end of Fates' book, Barbara Feldon never appeared on WML as a guest panelist. It wasn't until long after Dorothy's death that Feldon appeared as a mystery guest in 1973 on the syndicated show.

Fascinating R246. If you read the stuff at the bottom it gets even more interesting. Lee Israel, being interviewed about Pataky. Israel was thisclose to being killed herself when she published her book but "they" decided not to, thinking only conspiracy theorists would be interested in it.

John Simkin: Did you find any evidence that Ron Pataky was working for the CIA?

Lee Israel: No. Only that he dropped out of Stanford in 1954 and then enrolled in a training school for assassins in Panama or thereabouts.

John Simkin: Do you believe that Ron Pataky murdered Dorothy Kilgallen?

Lee Israel: He had something to do with it.

What was Dottie going to ask Pataky? If he was appearing in the legitimate theater?

Here's Phyllis stinking up an episode. I think Arlene just wants to snatch her wig.

R71 MAAAAARY!

R258, To add more to thinking it was Polly Bergen, her husband at that time was well known agent Freddie Fields, who would have made the second call to Gil Fates on her behalf.

R261, Here’s Barbara Feldon appearing as a WML? panelist on June 11, 1967.

Polly couldn't wait to get off the panel. She had a pretty decent career off of the show. During the shows run and after. I think she won an Emmy for a musical show during the run of TTTT. Then she had some really good film roles. Most notably Cape Fear. She understood a show like TTTT could lead to greater things and she used it. Don't turn your nose up at being a camera hog. She was not going back to a panel show. Other than as a guest on WML.

Gee how the cast changed in the 1970s when Sandy Dennis was the surprise guest (and didn't bother to hide her voice).

Oh she says she was trying to do an English accent.

R269, Wow. How the mighty had fallen! The pace was so rushed, and all of the good manners and gentility were gone. Even Arlene came on looking like she'd needed a fair amount of dandelion wine to get through it. It's clear just how much John Daly brought to the original show!

[quote]R224 The week after Dorothy died, Barbara Feldon's manager husband called Mark Goodman and started his campaign for her to take Dorothy's place on WML.

Is that really such a bad thing? The show must go on.

Wasn't Barbara Feldon already contracted to do Get Smart?

R268, WML? was a “live” show, so any panelist only had to commit to 30 minutes each week.

It’s not like they had to rehearse or learn blocking or choreography.

They received national exposure on a top rated show and were paid very well.

Who wouldn’t want that?

R273, WML? ended promptly at 11:00 PM on Sunday. She could have taken a red eye flight back to California and been on the “Get Smart” set on Monday morning.

I thought Barbara had another conflict of interest. Feldon almost lost her role as 99 because the sponsor of Get Smart was a deodorant soap, and she had done a deodorant commercial for Revlon.

R276, Also, “Get Smart” was NBC, WML? was CBS. I recall Lucy telling Johnny that each time she appeared on the “Tonight Show”, CBS deducted a sizable amount of money from her.

Networks were much stricter back then.

R258, while you make a very persuasive case for it being Polly Bergen, it's long been believed that Barbara Feldon was the one. And she's so out of left field, it's hard to believe her name would've been so strongly bandied about if it was NOT her.

When Dorothy died in 1965, Polly was still basking in the success of her film release the previous year.

Who needed television?

I just can't believe that it was Agent 99. It just doesn't seem like her MO. Especially when she was already on a hit show on another coast.

In her Archive of American Television interview Barbata says she started Get Smart at 6.30am. That doesn't leave much time for sleep if she had done WML on Sunday night. However she also says she wasn't in every episode of Get Smart so maybe there was some wriggle room.

R281, There was also a three hour time difference.

Sandy Dennis once bared her breast to me at a small party. She was drunk.

Kilgallen played the game to win . Cerf did, too, but he had a much lighter touch. The did need to have someone you could legitimately hate to make the panel work, which is why the show wasn't the same without her.

Tallulah’s last appearance on WML? in 1965 @ 18:15.

I like how she goes back to kiss each panelist.

Did Tennessee Williams appear on WML? Or many of the great playwrights?

Not sure about playwrights but Rodgers & Hammerstein were on the show.

If anyone can find it and post it there's a delightful segment with a "Broadway chorus boy" as a contestant and he was in a musical (I think it was Wish You Were Here) produced by Dorothy's husband.

Wish You Were Here.

[quote] Sandy Dennis once bared her breast to me at a small party. She was drunk.

Are you a woman, R283?

Richard Kollmar

My goodness! Among the chorus kids in Wish You Were Here were Florence Henderson, Tom Tryon and the much-discussed Phyllis Newman.

Dorothy and Dick on “Person to Person”.

No, r289, it was in a room with a handful of gay men. She was demonstrating that Willa Cather "makes my nipples hard."

Thanks, R293. I’m intrigued by her relationship with the much younger Eric Roberts.

Her last adventure...

Susperia! That’s a wild little episode….^

Who knew Lloyd could play the oily jerk?

[quote]If anyone can find it and post it there's a delightful segment with a "Broadway chorus boy" as a contestant and he was in a musical (I think it was Wish You Were Here) produced by Dorothy's husband.

John Charles Daly: "That's two down and eight to go. Dorothy?"

Dorothy: "Have you ever fucked my husband?"

What's My Line was long before my time, but I like watching it as a time capsule of mid-century entertainment personalities and NYC cafe society. Everybody was so "classy." Unlike the trash garbage culture we have today.

Jealous?

Weird seeing “RCA Building” instead of “30 Rock.”

Hey 256. R62 here, and I wrote that on another thread. My connection to these people got me on a few shows when I was a kid.

Word was, unfortunately, that when Roberts and Dennis were together he roughed her up quite a bit. This was from a good friend of hers.

DL favorite John Payne was one of the sharpest and most astute guest panelists. He phrased his questions carefully. He identified the first contestant instantly. John Daly seemed taken aback by how good Payne was.

R300. Why? The name on the building was never the street address…

I enjoyed John Payne's hairy knuckles.

When Miss Arlene Francis throws a party she always serves Vat 69.

R306, I’d rather perform 69.

[quote] WML? was a “live” show, so any panelist only had to commit to 30 minutes each week.

R274 At least an hour, I would think, if not more. They had to get there before the show, get made up, probably get into the clothes and had to be seated when the show went on the air. I don't know if they had any dress rehearsals but at any rate I'd think it'd be more than 30 minutes a week.

Yes, r308, and it makes me laugh when Bennett says to the mystery guest, "You were just at my house for a party this evening!"

P.S. Were all of Dorothy's and Arlene's gowns (some of them hideous!) donated? If so, I never heard any credit to designers or department stores.

R309 Not sure but I assume they wore their own clothes

The problem is that the show just didn't work after the Swinging Sixties came in. Kilgallen's death signalled the end.

Miss Bette Davis as the Mystery Guest

Bette is wearing her Dead Ringers Korean wig.

Earlier Bette appearance

There are 3 other WML appearances by Bette on YouTube.

That wig was hideous, one of the worst I've ever seen. It looked like a Halloween wig.

R308 does not understand the meaning of hyperbole.

BTW . . . No one had to be seated, they all made entrances.

[quote]Wow. How the mighty had fallen! The pace was so rushed, and all of the good manners and gentility were gone. Even Arlene came on looking like she'd needed a fair amount of dandelion wine to get through it. It's clear just how much John Daly brought to the original show!

Daly refused to let the guests do demonstrations of their work. That changed in the syndicated version, where they'd rush through the questioning and then have a fashion show or have the panel attempt to do the guest's job. Soupy Sales was painfully unfunny at all of this.

When "Laugh-In" debuted in January 1968 and became a runaway hit, it changed everything. Irreverence and irony became a thing. "What's My Line? 's cancellation in Sept 67 was perfect timing.

Soupy Sales was painfully unfunny at everything.

Soupy had his moment, though. His luncheon time show was a big hit among Detroit children back in the day, before going national, where his fans included Frank Sinatra. And he shared the Ed Sullivan stage with the Beatles in 1965.

Though I would agree that Dorothy's death signaled the beginning of the end of WML, the couple of years following that sad event were fascinating to watch just as a chronicle of the enormous cultural shift and how the Old Guard, namely Bennett, Arlene and JCD, dealt and reacted to it. Must-see TV in its own right and just as interesting.

R308 does not understand the meaning of hyperbole.

I fully understand the meaning of hyberbole, but the post R274 said all any contestant had to commit to was 30 min. per week. If that was supposed to be "hyperbole," so be it.

[quote] BTW . . . No one had to be seated, they all made entrances.

Whatever, they still didn't run in from the street. They must have had to be there well before air time.

Re-do:

[quote] [R308] does not understand the meaning of hyperbole.

I fully understand the meaning of hyperbole, but the post [R274] said all any contestant had to commit to was 30 min. per week. If that was supposed to be "hyperbole," so be it.

[quote] BTW . . . No one had to be seated, they all made entrances.

Whatever. They still didn't run in from the street. They must have had to be there well before air time.

I believe Arlene became the first woman to host(ess) a game show when she filled in for Bill Cullen.

As if she’d know the prices!

Wikipedia says In 1943, she began as host of a network radio game show, Blind Date, which she hosted also on ABC and NBC television from 1949 to 1952.

I've often noticed how once the MG's identity was guessed or revealed there'd be applause but then inevitably an awkward moment when nobody, not even John, seemed to know what to say next. Has anyone else observed that?

I never understood that weirdness as I'd have thought John would be ready to congratulate the guest on their latest project, but John often seemed reluctant to appear as though he was promoting a film or show, as though it was crass. And there are many instances, of course, especially in the early years, when an older star would appear with nothing to promote and thus nothing ,much to talk about. Even more awkward.

But it was often Arlene who could be counted on to graciously and quickly pipe up with a complimentary comment to save the moment and keep things moving along.

Maybe part of it was that they had no idea when or if the identity of the guest would be revealed. So they may have been trying to fill the time or use up the time, depending.

In the early tears of television Arlene was as ubiquitous as....Fay Emerson! As famous and familiar to American audiences as Lucy.

Great conversationalists with little real talent like Arlene, Fay, Arthur Godfrey, Garry Moore, Steve Allen and Jack Paar were huge celebs.

Fill the time, or run through the time quickly, I guess I meant.

r329, I agree, but then JCD knew who the MG was so you'd think he'd be prepared with a few pertinent remarks.

Steve Allen wasn't merely an interviewer, he did all kinds of comedy, had a comedy cast and did a lot of gags that pre-dated Letterman. Like having teabags attached to him and being dunked in a giant vat of hot water. Or his "Man on the Street" interviews.

R332 Yes you did have a point. I wonder why he didn't?

Please —John Daly could be crass as needed. He hosted the very first televised Miss America pageant, and then had the winner on WML the very next week. Lee Ann Meriwether, Miss California (San Fran).

R328, Daly often seemed uneasy and rushed around the mystery guest segment because it was a “live” show and he knew they had to be off the air at a set time.

If you look at the photo of the stage, there was a wall clock(upper left) that Daly would regularly glance at to see how much time was left.

Arlene was also one of the temporary hosts of the Tonight Show in 1962 during the run-up to Johnny Carson taking the helm on Oct. 1.

I always loved when the teen heart throbs like Tab Hunter, Fabian, Paul Anka and Ricky Nelson appeared. The panel truly had no idea what to say.

R323

[quote] the couple of years following that sad event were fascinating to watch just as a chronicle of the enormous cultural shift and how the Old Guard, namely Bennett, Arlene and JCD, dealt and reacted to it

That’s interesting.

R338, Dorothy considered herself a connoisseur of music.

Re R335 - was any other film director as famous enough as Hitchcock to be on the show?

Otto Preminger was a MG, R341.

George Stevens and Joseph Mankiewicz too. Arlene had the chutzpah to mention Joe's Cleopatra headaches.

R343, Orson Welles guested on the panel.

[quote]fascinating to watch just as a chronicle of the enormous cultural shift

The culture changed so fast in the 60s. The first half of the 60s were Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack being the epitome of cool and then in five minutes it was the Beatles and the Rolling Stones. It changed overnight.

Walt Disney...not a director (at that time), but a producer. Gene Kelly was also a director, actually.

Darryl Zanuck (producer) was also a mystery guest.

R345 You're not wrong, in a way, but Sinatra and the Rat Pack were popular with adults. The kids liked rock and roll. The Beatles and the Rolling Stones were loved by the kids, mostly - the adults continued to like the pop singers. Dean Martin's TV show was very popular, for ex.

For this Theatre Queen, WML is a goldmine of Broadway stars at the peak of their fame. Roz Russell during rehearsals for Wonderful Town. Angela Lansbury the week that Mame opened. The vonTrapp children (in costume) from The Sound of Music. Lauren Bacall during Cactus Flower. Julie Andrews in rehearsal for Camelot. And so many, many others. Those were the days when Broadway stars were real stars, known by most of America. You also got people like Abe Burrows, Jerry Herman, Rodgers and Hammerstein, etc.

Do we need a separate TTTT thread or can we piggyback here?

I'd like to discuss religious Bud Collyer, Tom Poston and his 17 yr old girlfriend, creepy Orson Bean, gracious Southern belle Kitty and Peggy Cass' weight fluctuations.

[quote]For this Theatre Queen, WML is a goldmine of Broadway stars at the peak of their fame. Roz Russell during rehearsals for Wonderful Town. Angela Lansbury the week that Mame opened. The vonTrapp children (in costume) from The Sound of Music. Lauren Bacall during Cactus Flower. Julie Andrews in rehearsal for Camelot. And so many, many others. Those were the days when Broadway stars were real stars, known by most of America. You also got people like Abe Burrows, Jerry Herman, Rodgers and Hammerstein, etc.

There was a great appearance by Burl Ives during the original run of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. IIRC, Arlene made him sing.

[quote]gracious Southern belle Kitty

I know Kitty was from New Orleans, but why did she sound like a Boston Brahmin?

[quote]I always loved when the teen heart throbs like Tab Hunter, Fabian, Paul Anka and Ricky Nelson appeared. The panel truly had no idea what to say.

"Might your songs be found on a jukebox?"

Kitty's mother wanted her daughter to rise above her less-than-upper-crust origins (she was jewish and middle class) and insisted on taking her to Europe for "finishing." She did well at it.

It worked!

r350 — per your request, I started a TTTT thread.

Thank you, r355!

[quote]Please —John Daly could be crass as needed. He hosted the very first televised Miss America pageant, and then had the winner on WML the very next week. Lee Ann Meriwether, Miss California (San Fran).

Back when the Miss America Pageant was getting block-buster ratings, Bennett Cerf and Kitty Carlisle were judges a few times. And of course former Miss America Bess Meyerson hosted the show for a few years.

When I was a little boy watching the show in the 60s, I had a huge crush on Robert Q. Lewis. I thought he was handsome. Today I would have pulled off those glasses and give him a blow job that would blow his mind.

Dorothy is the MG!

R349 Well, most of the world knew Russell, Lansbury and Bacall from the movies.

George Stevens.

Don't forget Babs—twice! And Bette Davis used much of her on-air time to rave about seeing Streisand in Funny Girl.

Even Greta Garbo went to see Streisand in Funny Girl.

Plus the R361 clip has Claudette Colbert

Joe Mankiewicz, Jane Russell.

The only Otto Preminger on YouTube has him as a panelist.

R366, Otto was a mystery guest on the syndicated series in 1973 @ 21:35.

Mike Todd was another producer mystery guest.

He was seething when Bennett thought he was Cecil B. DeMille.

^ Bennett was being puckish, R368.

[quote] Dorothy considered herself a connoisseur of music.

Including longhair music!

[quote]Including longhair music!

She had a problem with chin length.

I'm watching the 1952 season now. What I find interesting is that many of the female contestants bring their purses on stage with them, was there no one to hold their purses? Also, I don't mind Hal Block at all.

That custom would continue on television shows into the ‘70s, R372.

We had a discussion of post-Dorothy guest panelist Sue Oakland, who was smart and pretty but such a total nobody that she had to be fucking either Goodson or Todman.

The term “longhair” music is one I learned from watching WML.

Those damn dirty hippies with their longhair music!

R372, R373, Here’s Natalie Wood on the Tonight Show in 1980, with her purse.

Thanks, R377. I knew I saw women on tv with their purses at least into the ‘70s.

Where did you expect them to stash their smokes?

Didn't these stars have assistants to mind their stuff?

But they didn't have snack purses back then.

Natalie probably brought her purse onstage so she could have a cigarette during the break.

I saw an episode on YouTube. A bell player was the contestant. Arlene was drunk off her ass. It was funny as hell. The other panelists found it pretty funny.

You don't think Johnny could have offered her a cig, r382? He smoked like a fish.

When I was a kid and home sick from school I'd see Sue Oakland on afternoon TV often. She was a frequent panelist on those women talk shows like Leaver It to the Girls and Girl Talk with Virginia Graham. Sue was smart, sophisticated and pretty, full of fascinating opinions pre-Women's Lib..

Does anyone remember Virginia Graham?

oopsie

I love the episode when outrageously gorgeous bi-guy opera conductor Thomas Schippers was the first contestant (with blindfolded panel).and wowed Arlene with his looks. She looked like she wanted to go down on him right there.

Well, with Martin Gabel waiting for at home, can you blame her. r387?

R384 The host was Rich Little.

As for Broadway leading lady MGs don't forget Ethel Merman, Lena Horne, Carol Channing, Beatrice Lillie and Judy Holliday.

I know Mary Martin never appeared but did Tammy Grimes or Janis Paige or Gwen Verdon?

Arlene '32

R387, Here’s the episode.

Thomas Schippers died of lung cancer in 1977 at age 47.

One of his lovers was . . . wait for it . . . Lenny Bernstein.

Arlene was moist for Stephen Boyd too.

Wow! Thomas Schippers was indeed gorgeous, even if he looks about 10 years older than 28.

I wonder if his lung cancer was from Lenny's second hand smoke. Sad!

How moist was she, r393?

One of my guilty pleasures with WML is the large number of handsome, young men who appeared. I remember the Thomas Schippers episode -and others -where I Googled the guy to see if he was still alive, or gay, or...

I remember another episode where the guest was a former pole vaulter turned minister in the Church of the Brethren. My great-grandmother was a member of that church, so I mentioned the episode to my uncle. "Oh, Bob Richards? He used to have dinner at our house a couple of times a week when he was in seminary back in the day. Nice guy." Small world.

The Schippers...

[quote] As if she’d know the prices!

She didn't even know the difference between perfume manufacturers!

R398 Was it live?

R392 Am I the only one who doesn't think he's that hot?

Yes, R400, you are.

omg Arlene! "SHIT!!!" Hilarious. She looks like her waist is cinched in pretty tight in that ad.

Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein II were on. Any other Broadway musical composers?

Jerry Herman was on just after Dolly opened.

Stephen Boyd as MG with Otto Preminger as panelist.

Re R392 - it's funny when Jon has a long conference with Thomas where he caresses his ear? leading to Arlene say, Allright, John. That's for us.

[quote] But it was often Arlene who could be counted on to graciously and quickly pipe up with a complimentary comment to save the moment and keep things moving along.

R328 I think that’s part of what made Arlene successful on live TV and radio: you could relax and know that whatever happened, she’d find a funny and graceful way to smooth over an awkward moment.

[quote] There was a great appearance by Burl Ives during the original run of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. IIRC, Arlene made him sing.

R351 Yes, Arlene sometimes asked contestants (mystery and otherwise) to perform, such as asking a sword-swallower to perform. JCD usually said “No,” and I’ve read that he was dead set against turning WML into anything resembling a variety show. JCD seemed to have nearly as much control over the original WML as Goodson and Todman did.

When I finished watching the original WML episodes and started watching the syndicated version, I quickly saw that contestants were performing or involving the panelists in demonstrations relating to the contestants’ lines. It seems Goodson and Todman had no problem with it, and Arlene frequently enjoyed performances and was game for all sorts of competitions between the panelists that were related a contestant’s line.

R386 That’s the first time I’ve seen Arlene lose her cool rather than make a joke about something unexpected. It looks like a kinescope rather than a filmed commercial, but it can’t possibly be a kinescope of live TV or that would have been the end of Arlene’s TV and radio career. I don’t know if they had the 7-second delay yet for live TV at the time she did that commercial.

But that's part of why it went downhill after it went syndicated. JCD ran the show so it replicated the gracious and convivial atmosphere of a high society soirée; and you just don't ask actual guests to perform at a high society soirée.

"Tell her I would be happy to sing, if she'll christen a battleship!" -- Judy Garland, after being told at a Hollywood soirée that Princess Margaret wanted her to sing for everyone there.

R410 Yes, it was a very different show in syndication and far less appealing (although it survived for 7 years, 5 days a week, which says something about how TV audiences were changing). I think it would have been a total loss without Arlene. Also, Soupy Sales and Henry Morgan were not helpful. Henry already had a black mark against him for insulting Bennett on the original show.

[quote]Miss Bette Davis as the Mystery Guest

Wearing her "Dead Ringer" wig.

[quote]Not sure but I assume they wore their own clothes.

I certainly wore all my own clothes on "To Tell the Truth," including my ball gowns from "Traviata."

What is going on with Joan's hair?

R414, That was tame compared to this.

Bennet asks Joan about her hair and she says she did it herself.

In the second clip Joan introduces the Justin Bieber style hairdo.

Songwriters Lieber abd Stoller were on as the writers of Hound Dog, Jailhouse Rock, etc. The panelists couldn't have been more condescending when they learned the guys wrote "rock n roll.," basically telling them that they hoped they'd go o to better things.

400+ threads about What's My Line and Dorothy Killgalen (with tangents about '50s Broadway and closeted male stars of the time) are why I still come to DL after all these years.

What about those early shows when the contestant was asked to parade down in front of the panelists so they could get a closer look and shake their hands before the game began? I think Dorothy would even try and inspect a contestant's suit label to determine how wealthy they might be.

There was also an early year or two when the panel would be asked to make a wild guess as to the contestant's occupation before the questioning started, rarely leading to the hilarity it was meant to ensue.

I'm grateful those customs didn't survive long.

[quote]What about those early shows when the contestant was asked to parade down in front of the panelists so they could get a closer look and shake their hands before the game began? I think Dorothy would even try and inspect a contestant's suit label to determine how wealthy they might be.

I always wondered why when they would do that, the male panelists would stand to shake the hands of the lady guests, but the female panelists didn't. I'm sure there's some arcane Emily Post reason, but it was not anything that my finishing school mother ever prepared me for.

Men stand for a lady out of respect. Woman remain seated so as not to lose their power.

[quote] What about those early shows when the contestant was asked to parade down in front of the panelists so they could get a closer look and shake their hands before the game began?

Followed by the "free guess." What a waste of time. Although there were a handful of correct guesses.

Wonder how long those components lasted. Ultimate snob DK would indeed ask to see a label to assess the quality of the clothing. Wow!

The majority of the celebrity mystery guests kissed Dorothy on the way out.

Her column was widely syndicated and it made her very powerful back in the day.

After watching a bunch of episodes this past weekend, I think it's cafe society cosplaying high society in a gameshow filled with double entendres and occasional wolf whistles at pretty girls. It's a fun concept that you could never truly duplicate in a million years.

[quote] Wonder how long those components lasted.

i believe they ended in 1955.

[quote] Although there were a handful of correct guesses.

And here they all are.

I've never been to a high society party but somehow I doubt WML resembled one.

May I see your hands?

Dorothy once asked to see the label inside a contestant’s suit jacket.

As someone noted, more middlebrow than high…society. Most were entertainers!

They weren't high society, they were...sophisticates.

[quote] As someone noted, more middlebrow than high…society. Most were entertainers!

An aged, highbrow Frank Lloyd Wright hardly seemed interested.

One of the best mystery guest appearances ever.

Did panelist Robert Q query him?

The seemingly girl-crazy (like RQL) Hal Block never married.

I noticed that, too, R437. Also, he scratched his head a lot. Dandruff?

[quote]Men stand for a lady out of respect. Woman remain seated so as not to lose their power.

When Eleanor Roosevelt was the mystery guest, all four panelists, including the two women, stood to shake her hand.

They stood for nuns and cardinals, too.

I don't think a rabbi ever appeared though....

And when Bishop Fulton J. Sheen was the mystery guest, devout Catholic Dorothy kissed his ring.

That Liberace clip would be utterly inexplicable to anyone under 75. No, make that 80.

The reception that Liberace received from the audience was incredible as if he was Elvis.

R441 . . .

[quote]And when Bishop Fulton J. Sheen was the mystery guest, devout Catholic Dorothy kissed his ring.

Was that before or after she had a kid with her gay lover?

During!

And in the 1958 Thomas Schippers episode there's Pat Boone on the panel.

I wonder how many "WML?" panelists are still alive. He may be the only one.

^ Steve Lawrence & Dick Cavett, to name just two, are living panelists from the network run.

R447, Steve Lawrence, Paul Anka, Barbara Feldon, Marlo Thomas and Jane Fonda all sat on the WML? panel at least once.

As I type, all are still alive.

Others still living from the network run: Woody Allen, Michele Lee, Pia Lindstrom, William Shatner.

They're all alive. It's just their careers that are dead.

As a child, I thought a black satin blindfold outlined with faux pearls was the height of sophistication and glamour.

Bishop Sheen was a hot daddy.

His religious show was so popular, it knocked Milton Berle’s show off the air.

I thought Sheen was creepy. Vampire-like.

Shatner was a great panelist. He was so good looking. There was a funny episode when a teenage girl was ridiculously flirting with him. It was funny as hell.

"'Boy do you have a crazy sponsor"

[quote]Was that before or after she had a kid with her gay lover?

I'm sure they could commiserate over having a gay lover.

Do you work for a profit making organization?

Another Arlene moment was when a very young guy, 19 or 20, extremely fit and good looking was on. He taught exercises classes at, well, a slimming spa, to women. Arlene set about asking questions loaded with innuendo, and he was firing innuendo laden answers right back at her. It was pretty funny.

Take it off...

I guess this is not the one with the flirting Shatner. But you get Jack Lemmon as the MG.

Now that I watch it he is pretty flirty. He can't wait to shake her hand at the end and he looks at her ass as she passes.

All the YouTube clips I can find have Jane Fonda as MG and not panelist.

Jane was a panelist inn 1963, according to my Gil Fates book.

Aha.

Jane brings her purse with her on the set.

Jane looks older in that 1963 clip than she does now.

I absolutely adore this show. I'm a millennial, so sometimes there's a mystery guest I don't recognize, but the amazing part is that many of them I do. They got major talent to appear on that show.

Father & son Fonda as mystery guests. Along with David Merrick.

[quote] They got major talent to appear on that show.

This show ran long before cable, when there were just three networks. For a good part of its run, just two major networks, CBS & NBC. So WML drew a sizable audience.

But they did get movie stars as MGs who'd never otherwise be on TV. Especially in the 1950s.

And occasionally in the early 1950s they'd have a TV star who the panel didn't really seem to recognize because some of them, well....Dorothy, anyway, insisted she didn't watch TV.

IIRC poor Gale Storm fell into that category. And yes, I know Gale Storm was in films, but decidedly minor B films, before she really found success on TV.

R471, Gale Storm also had a recording career.

Nevertheless, r472, the panel struggled to guess her identity, even after it was revealed.

R467 - that dress and hairstyle did her no favors. But she does have a funny moment with the lady who sells salami contestant.

1963 was still a time when young people actually dressed to look more adult, hard as it may be to believe now.

at the end of each segment, the celebrity guest would shake hands with each of the panelists, this was off mike and appeared to always be cordial. I distinctly remember Lucille Ball, politely shaking everyone's hand BUT when she got to Kilgallen, she whispered something to her that made Kilgallen blink in fear. I'd love to know what it was. Scotty Bowers said somewhere that Lucille Ball confronted him at a party about providing girls to Desi. He said she scared the shit out of him.. When he told the story to an old Hollywood friend, the friend said "there are two people in this town you do not fuck with, Frank Sinatra and Lucille Ball. Wasy Lucy like a mob boss?

Well she kisses Dorothy here so it's not this one.

Kisses her again here.

[quote] As a child, I thought a black satin blindfold outlined with faux pearls was the height of sophistication and glamour.

You mean it's NOT?!

I notice some pronunciation that seems off to my 21st ear. But I tend to defer to them, as if these mid-century sophisticates were the “founders” of the English language.

(1954 Episode with mystery guest Clarence Nash , the voice of Donald Duck)

Fred Allen: "Is the product (you are involved with) grown in California? (Nash: "No")

Arlene: "Its just MADE in California. " (Nash: "Yes")

Arlene: "So many people are."

[quote]I've never been to a high society party but somehow I doubt WML resembled one.

Rather than high-society, WML? represented NYC cafe-society. The crowd you'd find at El Morocco and the Stork Club.

Dorothy always wore a white satin mask trimmed in lace and beads. It looked to my child eyes like a brassiere. It still does, actually.

Arlene's was usually of a hard stiff black material edged with pearls.

The ladies would both frantically touch up their mussed hair and false eyelashes when the masks came off. You could tell, they hated wearing them.

10 minutes with Arlene

No, r483, they both wore the satin masks and later the black masks trimmed with pearls.

After the Black-and-White Ball in 1966, Arlene wore an altered version of the mask she had worn that night. She was so excited and wanted to talk about it.

Does anyone remember the episode where Daly had to defend Arlene from a viewer who had written in their accusation that Arlene had inside info about the contestants that allowed her to guess right so often? Daly was solemn and angry in his response and as I remember Arlene was close to tears. Only saw it once.

Yes, r487, but I think it was on the syndication version with Wally Bruner.

Chinless lush.

Don Murray and Hope Lange are seen in that collection of Arlene clips.

Arlene on the Merv Griffin Show.

Why does a Catholic have to exhibit perfect moral behavior?

R492, I am the Blessed Mother.

Do you work for any branch of the government?

Eleanor Roosevelt who brings her handbag and for whom the women stood.

R495, That’s where she kept her hot sauce.

The way that John kept repeating the question for Eleanor was SO annoying.

This is very funny when Dorothy asks the age of Rosalind Russell.

He was repeating the questions for Mrs. Roosevelt because she was nearly deaf.

[quote] The way that John kept repeating the question for Eleanor was SO annoying.

As it was when he would repeat the city of residence provided by the guest upon introduction.

The Roz Russell age question comes at 18.46 in the clip. "Are you under 48?"

R498, Roz would have been 45 at that time.

If anyone would care to link it there's a very funny episode with Roz's chum Irene Dunne in which her age also rudely comes up (from Hal Block) but Arlene saves the day.

Irene appeared twice, this is the earlier occasion when she really seems like an Irene Dunne character.

TIA!

"Are you in a picture that's playing in one of the picture houses on Broadway?"

Do people come to you?

That Roz segment is so delightful. The wit, the genteel charm. We've lost so much over the last 70 years.

Well they come inside me.

Robert Q. was by some accounts not an easy man to work with. I've seen him described going from charming to petulant in an instant, and prone to foot-stamping "hissy fits".

[quote]The wit, the genteel charm. We've lost so much over the last 70 years.

That no longer exists in our mainstream culture. It's currently a garbage pile.

Irene Dunne #1

This thread has prompted me to watch many random episodes in addition to those provided here. I, too, get pissed off at the urgency that Dorothy and Bennett showed. It just seems offputting to me. I'm also routinely pissed at the loud-ass studio audience. If they would have emoted so much, maybe it would have thrown off the panel more.

As for the MG, all the panel had to do was be in the know as to who was in town. There aren't too many times they've been stumped.

When George Raft and Edward G Robinson were on, separately, the audience's reaction to the question of Do you play gangsters gave them away.

[quote] the audience's reaction to the question of Do you play gangsters gave them away.

Well, the question surely suggests the panel was on to the mystery guest's identity.

George Raft is so adorable as the MG

Loretta Young’s daughter was visited by Dunne in the hospital once, and she was quite staid and cheerless. Dunne dropped off a plant and asked the obligatory questions, but Judy Lewis found her to be nothing like the star’s warm and open hearted screen persona.

Well, I just love Irene Dunne in that first WML clip. Utterly delicious! Exactly what I would hope she'd be like.

Judy Lewis was a sour puss.

I wonder if Loretta Young ever appeared on WML? I don't think so.

r511, you're not quite taking into account that many of the biggest stars in the world lived in New York City in the 1950s, whether they were appearing on Broadway or not. So knowing who "was in town" doesn't quite solve everything. NYC still provided lots of entertainment employment opportunities, most notably live TV dramas and all the big talk shows, as well as night clubs with big star stage shows like El Morocco, The Stork Club, The Persian Room at the Plaza, etc.

Of course, knowing about the recent big Broadway, club and film openings was essential and the panelists were experts there, often attending those openings.

They might of objected to her offstage Swear Box.

^^ re:

[quote]I wonder if Loretta Young ever appeared on WML? I don't think so.

Loretta would charge you a dollar and "oh dear" you, r518.

Judy Lewis was a doll. She showed compassion for her mother and never trashed her - despite the woman telling her she was a “mortal sin.”

Loretta Young sounds like she was a hard boiled dame under the sickly sweet veneer.

[quote]R520 Loretta would charge you a dollar and "oh dear" you

How much to tell you to [italic]go fuck yourself ? ![/italic]

[bold]: )

[quote]as well as night clubs with big star stage shows like El Morocco, The Stork Club, The Persian Room at the Plaza, etc.

Don't forget the Tropicana!

Loretta and Irene were friends so I can't imagine that was Judy's only interaction with Irene, r515.

[quote]I, too, get pissed off at the urgency that Dorothy and Bennett showed. It just seems offputting to me.

They're not as enjoyable relaxed as Arlene is, but if someone didn't treat the whole thing like a contest, the sequences would never have ended.

[quote]I'm also routinely pissed at the loud-ass studio audience. If they would have emoted so much, maybe it would have thrown off the panel more.

It was just a different era. People behaved differently. Also, they needed to get through the contestants--they only had a limited amount of time.

It was the combination of the panel's personalities. Brilliant chemistry! I wouldn't have traded Arlene, Dorothy or Bennett for anyone else.

Remember. The phrase "Bigger than a bread box" was invented by Steve Allen on WML.

Do you think there were plants in the audience making sure there were enough cheers and wolf whistles to bolster the egos of the stars? The whistles sound awfully similar from show to show.

They hold up applause signs and such, r528.

Irene Dunne #2

Wasn't it Johnny Olsen who announced the first panelist ("The star of stage and television...") and also did all the roaring and whipping of the studio crowds as soon as the Mystery Guest entered? I think he did all the Goodson/Todman shows.

He might have even been a Mystery Guest himself once when the scheduled star didn't show up.

It doesn't seem Loretta Young was on the show.

Johnny OLson

Probably because Loretta was west coast. She probably only went to NYC to shop and see shows. Her film career was running down so she didn't have anything to push.

She had a long-running TV series but it was on another network so maybe they wouldn't let her promote it.

The epitome of Hollywood glamour.

Lots of MG's pushed shows from other channels.

R517, this is R511.

Thank you for a better perspective of NYC. I guess I assigned mostly Broadway and some shows to it, enough for the panel to scour the NYT for hints. In my mind, I assumed Hollywood was the overwhelming primary source.

With that said, I still maintain that the audience did a horrible job of not keeping their yaps and guffaws silent. The MG WANTED to fool the panel, so any extra help (such as wolf whistles or laughing at a panel member's thinking out loud) hurt the MG's attempts.

Also, Dorothy was such a prisspot.

Ava does a lot of Marilyn-type cooing in that clip.

Errol Flynn behaves very strangely. Was he drunk?

Errol as panelist.

LOVE that Ava Gardner clip! Thanks for posting it. So glamorous and at the height of her beauty and fame, promoting MOGAMBO (or Mo-gum-bo as Bennett calls it). It's the only clip I've ever seen of her where we get a glimpse of the real Ava (even though, of course, she's very "on").

But then that's the wonderful thing about WML, seeing these stars behaving scriptless and without much control.

You really get the impression with Errol Flynn how much he benefited from strict studio control of his image during his heyday.

[quote]The epitome of Hollywood glamour.

Hollywood! You mustn't stay there!

[quote]Errol Flynn behaves very strangely. Was he drunk?

When wasn't he drunk by that point in his career?

R540, That was less than two years before he died.

If she were still around, do you think Dorothy would have participated in the syndicated version?

Good question, r547! It's actually quite hard to imagine what Dorothy would have been like in the 1970s and what she would have done with her life. She was only 52 when she was murd....umm, died.

[quote]Good question, [R547]! It's actually quite hard to imagine what Dorothy would have been like in the 1970s

She would have fit right into the Reagan era 1980s Park Ave. society scene.

Had she lived, I imagine Dorothy would have eventually divorced Dick Kollmar. Her column probably wouldn't have survived the 1970s.

But who knows what info she really had on the JFK assassination and how or if it would have impacted the 1960s, not to mention her life and career. That's the real question.

[quote]Her column probably wouldn't have survived the 1970s.

Liz Smith and Cindy Adams were bigger than ever in the 1970s and 80s.

Didn’t Dorothy pen a very different type column than either Liz or Cindy?

I think the difference between DK and the other two ladies is that the tone of DK's column was often very catty and mean-spirited with an "I told to you so" attitude. Liz and Cindy were more like obsequious cheerleaders and if they were ever critical it was with a faux naive sense of wonderment.

The nasty columnists like DK, Hedda and Winchell were just no longer palatable in a world of People Magazine and Entertainment Tonight.

I think Dorothy would have ultimately found the show that became WML beneath her dignity.

Here's a sample of Dorothy's column, R552.

Is there a product involved in what you do?

I like Irene Dunne as a performer but she was known to be a little on the prissy side.

There are a lot of "best of" clips on YouTube with Dorothy showing a pretty great sense of humor. I don't know why people keep talking like she was a stiff.

Dorothy wasn't a stiff -she was a lush.

[quote]I like Irene Dunne as a performer but she was known to be a little on the prissy side.

I always found her charming.

How the hell does this topic generate so much interest?

"What's My Line?" has always been a popular DL topic. It's a fascinating time capsule.

George Hurrell (Hollywood photographer) usually talked to women stars in a sexy way to get them to loosen up and project sex in their portraits. Irene Dunne was the only one who wouldn't respond with anything sexy. She replied to him with something like, "Let's not be silly." Of course that's another reason I like her, but it's true that she really didn't project any sex, onscreen. She was also reluctant to do screwball comedy, originally, but got talked into it and eventually was great at it.

Robert Alda as MG with Alan on the panel.

Was it Hedda Hopper or Louella Parsons that they’d use as a fill-in for Dot?

R565, It was Kitty Carlisle the week after Dorothy died.

Dorothy Mae could always draw a crowd.

[quote][R565], It was Kitty Carlisle the week after Dorothy died.

I thought they'd use one of the other gossip columnists in the 50s when Dorothy was on vacation.

I dunno. I've found videos where both Hedda and Louella were mystery guests. I can only imagine that if they and Dorothy were in the same restaurant, they'd be seated far apart.

R568, They were friendly competitors. Both Hedda and Louella kissed Dorothy after their mystery guest appearances.

I thought Louella and Hedda hated each other.

Since Dorothy was New York and they were LA, I guess they didn't compete with her in the same way they did with each other.

R570, Dorothy and Hedda/Louella were friendly competitors.

Weren't Hedda/Louella always making deals with studios. If you don't print that, we will give you this sort of thing. From the samples I've read of Dorothy's column and all her feuds, it seems like Dorothy was more fuck you.

Where does Susie Knickerbocker fit into the picture? She was an occasional sub after DK died.

[quote]"What's My Line?" has always been a popular DL topic. It's a fascinating time capsule.

Exactly, r562. r561, see my thread below....

[quote]"What's My Line?" has always been a popular DL topic. It's a fascinating time capsule.

The episodes on YouTube have hundreds of thousands of views. Some with half a million. That's quite a testimony to the show's enduring charm.

From the column posted at R555:

[quote]Apparently Judy Garland approves Liza Minnelli's betrothal to dancer Peter Allen. She demonstrated her pleasure over the whole thing by giving her daughter a diamond ring.

I confess I mostly watch the show on YouTube to skip ahead to the movie/TV star appearances. It's really almost my sole interest in What's My Line?.

Is it true that WML was also a popular radio program? Not sure if this was during the early years of the TV series.

Did Goodson and Todman fly in WML contestants? And did they house them in NYC? They did come from all over the US.

The show originated on television in 1950, R578. They tried a radio version that only lasted for about a year, from 1952 to 1953.

R579, No, just like Jeopardy! doesn’t today.

I know I saw a United Airlines sponsor card on a few of those episodes.

WML was staged in NYC. There was no need to fly anyone in.

I once befriended an older lady who was a contestant in Jan. 1964. My interest in her was mainly that she had crossed paths with the WML stars.

Tell us more, r584!

I just listened to a bit of the WML radio program. It was so odd to just hear and not see them. I cannot bear Hal Block who constantly interrupted who ever was talking with a lame joke. I looked forward to the Mystery Guest segment, figuring it would be fun to really play along and I guessed the identity before the panel did. But be warned - the radio announcer (not sure if it was Johnny Olson) announced to the listening audience who it was. But I covered my ears before I could hear the name.

So that column linked by R555 was from 1965, but how old was that picture of Dorothy? 10 years? 20? She actually looks like she has a chin in the pic.

[quote]R555 Here's a sample of Dorothy's column

Her writing style is really boring. I wonder if other gossip columnists got kind of shrill and judgey just to give their pieces some flavor. (“Frances Farmer is on a liquor slicked highway to hell!”)

I guess I would try to stir up some outrage/drama, too.

[quote]R585 But be warned - the radio announcer (not sure if it was Johnny Olson) announced to the listening audience who it was. But I covered my ears before I could hear the name.

Thank the Goddess for that!

I also noted the very outdated photo of Dorothy with her column. You'd think she'd be embarrassed at how old-fashioned her style was, if nothing else.

Here is the one with Dr. Jules Montenier

I wouldn't miss the regular contestants for anything. They were for me the most entertaining, ordinary folks representing (mostly) the average working folk, getting however briefly a moment in the spotlight. And it was often a hoot seeing what kind of outfits they thought would be suitable for national TV.

R554, Dorothy craved belonging to the type of NYC entertainment/publishing/journalism circles her the WML network provided. And the weekly show reinforced her needs, as her husband's career took its hits and the marriage suffered.

I had a book that referred to "pert Arlene Francis" and "quince-faced Dorothy Kilgallen".

I watched an episode with a young Elizabeth Taylor as the celebrity guest. My God, she was beautiful.

Helen of Troy stunning, r594.

Would any of us on the panel be likely to use your service?

Have you ever studied dentistry?

I don't wear one Bennett

Did you ever lose your address book out of a helicopter over Greece?

[quote]I cannot bear Hal Block who constantly interrupted who ever was talking with a lame joke.

He was the Orson Bean of WML.