The Wizard of Oz is the perfect film

Fuck you!

Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman she meets, then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again.

It's not perfect, but it's perfect for you.

Three anatomically incomplete complete strangers.

(“Courage” is polite for “balls.”)

It's for young children, you realize?

... and r5?

My favorite film of all time. I can remember waiting for this to air on television every year around Easter time as a child.

You three dirty hams! Let that little girl in there!

I'll never forget the first time my sister watched it and burst into tears when the Wicked Witch showed up, and then again with the flying monkeys. Good times.

As I said in another thread, I love this movie too, but I think it would be even greater if Frank Morgan, who plays multiple characters, some quite long-winded, got less screen time. Dorothy, Toto, The Wicked Witch - perfection!

That was one scary witch and she had 🔥.

I thought Morgan was perfect as a turn-of-the-century con artist.

This Instagram page has so many rare behind the scenes photos from the movie. Several famous people, like Chris Sarandon and Bronson Pinchot, follow it and comment about their interactions with some of the stars of the movie.

A famous vocal coach left this comment about Margaret Hamilton:

❤️Believe it or not, I actually got to know Maggie when I lived in NY. She considered and treated a friend of mine like he was part of her family and that’s how I met her. I was really young and she was quite old at the time, but she could not have been more friendly and open and treated us like we were her grandchildren. She had the best & most interesting stories from all the movies she had done. The thing I remember most was how she tried to answer every piece of fan mail she got! She had six or seven pictures from the Wizard of Oz, that she would sign and give to people. Another picture that she would sign was when she was “Cora the coffee lady” in the commercials. This post really reminded me of some beautiful memories!❤️

I have absolutely loved The Wizard of Oz from the time that I first started watching it as a young child when it was shown every year on TV. I’ve lost count how many times that I’ve seen it. While I have many favorite films, this one is top of the list, first in line.

The movie deserves to be called “iconic” because it is. Yes that word is overused, but it certainly applies here. As the opening credits note, the movie is dedicated to the young and the young at heart and it has certainly lived up to the hope of entertaining audiences throughout the last 80 years. The movie is replete with cultural references that have traveled well with it over those eight decades. Indeed, some scientists determined in 2018 that The Wizard of Oz was the most “influential” film of all time by calculating how much a film had been referenced by subsequent films. You can sometimes hear several references to the Wizard of Oz in a week.

I can’t think of any other film that has stood up as well TWOO. 👠 ❤️👠

Actually, R5, no. The film itself is dedicated to the young at heart.

“ For nearly 40 years this story has given faithful service to the Young in Heart; and Time has been powerless to put its kindly philosophy out of fashion. To those of you who have been faithful to it in return... and to the Young in Heart ...we dedicate this picture."

So fuck you and your dismissiveness and condescension, R5. You don’t know what you’re talking about. As usual. You fat ugly fuck.

As a very little kid, I thought that watching this was torture. The witch scared me so badly esp when she bursts into Munchkinland. Then after a couple of years, I was able to watch it after the witch left Munchkinland. Now it’s a favorite film.

I still think “If I Were King of the Forest” stops everything dead in its tracks though.

Amen to r16 re the Lion’s big number. zzzzzzzzz.

Actually Red Zone Cuba is the perfect film, but Oz is ok too I guess.

I was in a community theatre in the park production in a midwestern college town in the summer of 1986. I was a munchkin in pink Gingham overalls and a jitterbug. I shit you not.

A perfect film. And it includes “Somewhere Over the Rainbow.”

SURRENDER DOROTHY

OK but it leaves a serious question unanswered. What happens to Toto at the end? Does Miss Gulch return for him?

And I thought DL couldn't get any gayer...

I always wondered that also, R22.

MISS GULCH If you don't hand over that dog, I'll lie and say Henry tried to rape me. And then you’ll have to get a shady lawyer and go to court. You’ll spend a shit load of money and have to sell this sad excuse of a farm to pay for it!

As a kid the thing that scared me is when Dorothy fell into the hog pen, at the beginning. I think it was the way Judy Garland reacted. She was really upset, and it upset me. I didn’t find the witch frightening - somehow, I liked her wickedness. I did find her castle very scary, though. I had nightmares about it.

In talking to a lot of people about the movie, I’m surprised they think it’s set in the ‘30s. I think it’s set at the time of the book. There are no cars shown in that part of rural Kansas. Miss Gulch’s long dress and hat are not from the ‘30s. Professor Marvel has a horse and wagon, and wears a swallow-tail coat (supposedly the coat had a label saying it had once belonged to L, Frank Baum, but I don’t know if that’s true).

Racist white privilege movie!!!!

R22, R24, apparently some stage productions have tried to address this by explaining that once Miss Gulch learned Dorothy was injured in the tornado, she dropped her case against Toto.

R22, IIRC it was originally made clear that Miss Gulch had died in the tornado, but the filmmakers didn't want to end with such bleak content. I assume a case might be made that the tornado had damaged the wealthy Miss Gulch's property (she owns half the town) to the extend that she had other things to worry about.

"Extent".

Further to my response at R28, there might have been a line of dialogue about “her heart melted a bit”, alluding to her dual role as the witch.

[quote] I'll never forget the first time my sister watched it and burst into tears when the Wicked Witch showed up, and then again with the flying monkeys. Good times.

She wasn’t the only one, they scared me to death when I was a little boy. The don’t bother me now, as an adult, which I always feel a bit proud of.

[Quote] Dorothy fell into the hog pen

Dorothy was extremely stupid. It me so fucking mad seeing such a twat waffle fall in with the hogs then later on be too stupid to know when to come in out of the rain.

Agree 💯, OP.

And to quote Steve Winwood's/Traffic's "Hidden Treasure," "If you've got a mind that's open/If you've got a heart that yearns," [italic]The Wizard of Oz[/italic] takes you on a journey that spans a lifetime (or more).

When I was little, what spoke to me was the...[italic]UTTER[/italic] frustration of being a kid (especially the youngest), and having no fucking agency. You did what you were told, when you're told. You don't go spending your free time daydreaming and playing with your pet. Children should be seen, and not heard. What adults say/do is always right and proper; what children say/do is eye-rolling, annoying, and inconsequential. Your neighbors' word/allegations against you are automatically true, and to be taken seriously. You're not allowed to tell an adult "That's not fair!"

Dorothy spoke to my 5-15-year old self for those reasons.

My 40-59 self kind of blasts through/half watches the opening scenes, then STOPS immediately at "Optimistic Voices," and I CRY every single time. How I desperately want those lyrics and voices to be real in me someday.

And the end, when Dorothy is leaving Oz/getting home never interested me much. And it's still frustrating how everyone loves her and is thrilled she's "returned," STILL no one believes her; even then they laugh in her face.

But the actual parting scene where Dorothy says goodbye to her three dear friends, friends who'd carried through that journey with her? At age 59 I'm a weeping mess. Until I was 19 I'd never suffered loss of a dearly loved one. But from 19- now, that parting scene hits me hard. It describes physical loss, emotional loss, loss of childhood dreams, loss of the irreplaceable relatives, parents, friends, pets in your life. They're gone, but you have to stay and go on. And it's fucking hard.

Jesus I never meant to write this much. Dammit, OP!

[quote] A perfect film. And it includes “Somewhere Over the Rainbow.”

Spoilers!

Dorothy has no agency!

[quote] I was in a community theatre in the park production in a midwestern college town in the summer of 1986. I was a munchkin in pink Gingham overalls and a jitterbug. I shit you not.

I wonder if Tams-Witmark still licenses that strange version of The Wizard Of Oz. It includes the Jitterbug (cut from the movie) but doesn’t have King Of The Forest. Dorothy sings a random song called “Evening Star,” about someday falling in love. It also has a strange libretto, with terrible jokes. At one point, the Wicked Witch is hanging out with her witch friends, and one of them leaves not on a broom, but a vacuum cleaner, saying, “it’s the latest model!”

[quote] But the actual parting scene where Dorothy says goodbye to her three dear friends, friends who'd carried through that journey with her? At age 59 I'm a weeping mess.

Me too. I believe those scenes were written by Yip Harburg , the film’s lyricist.

Even as an adult, this scene always gets to me. I can think of a few times in my life -- long after I left childhood -- when I have been utterly terrified of something, and I yearned to be a child again, with my mother there to comfort me.

r38 Vivian Vance was Yip Harburg's mistress when he wrote the lyrics to "Over the Rainbow."

... which is the most DL piece of trivia of all time.

Supposedly sleeping with Harburg was how Vivian got to replace Kay Thompson in the lead of a show (Hooray For What) directed by Vincente Minnelli and Howard Lindsay.

The show (with Ed Wynn in the male lead) had one of those 1930s musical plots:

[quote] In Sprinkle, Indiana, Chuckles, a chemist, accidentally discovers a poisonous gas that could dominate the world. Breezy Cunningham is a weapons manufacturer, and tries to get the formula; when Chuckles refuses, Breezy hires the famous and alluring spy Stephanie Stephanovich to tempt it from Chuckles. Chuckles does not give in to Stephanie's wiles but goes to the League of Nations Peace Conference in Geneva to try to sell his discovery, which has somehow turned into a "love" potion. Meanwhile, Breezy, Stephanie, and their cohorts try to obtain the formula for the poisonous gas.

Vivian played Stephanie.

Frank Morgan has some of the greatest lines.

[quote]Her face is careworn.

I didn't get this joke when I was a child:

[quote]Better get under cover, Sylvester, there's a storm blowin' up, a whopper!... To speak in the vernacular of the peasantry. Poor little kid, I hope she gets home all right.

The part of Professor Marvel/The Wizard was written for . W. C. Fields, which becomes obvious if you listen to the lines with Fields in mind (see R43). Fields’s screen persona was sometimes that of the charlatan or sideshow performer, like Professor Marvel. Had he been cast he would have been the biggest star in the movie, which may be one reason why the part is so big.

Frank Morgan does a great job, though, and manages not to over-dominate his scenes, which Fields might have done, unbalancing the movie.

Funny how today's computer-generated imagery still can't top the thrill of what they were able to do 80 years ago.

This scene is like a classical painting come to life.

The only redeeming feature of the film are the flying monkeys.

It's pretty perfect except for that nelly prisspot Cowardly Lion bore of a musical number, If I Were King of the Forest.

R46 Completely ignoring Judy Garland's impeccable performance.

It's cute being a contrarian, isn't it R46?

I’ve always assumed that Miss Gulch is as dead as both of the witches.

And the part where the Wicked Witch of the West replaces Auntie Em in the crystal ball terrified me as a child. I still loved the movie and came back each year to watch again and again. Eventually I came to appreciate the witch as the most interesting character.

In a play in high school many eons ago I was able to incorporate the Wicked Witch’s cackle into the part I played to such great effect that the reviewer mentioned the Wicked Witch in his review.

I never thought about Miss Gulch at the end of the movie.

I like the King Of The Forest number. But then I love Bert Lahr. Arlen-Harburg had written for him before.

My theory - the Wicked Witch of the West killed her own sister to take the ruby slippers.

It's the Witch of the West we see out of Dorothy's window in the tornado, cackling with anticipatory glee.

She arrives already wearing mourning.

She immediately looks to blame what would otherwise be seen as a catastrophic but random occurrence on some individual - thus signaling her own guilt.

Her crocodile tears for her sister vanish once the slippers are mentioned...and the Witch of the East is never mentioned by her again.

Her error was in thinking that the house would be untenanted and that Glinda would take advantage of that fact.

This was an assassination and possible coup gone wrong.

W. C. Fields in the Frank Morgan roles sounds as inspired as Shirley Temple in the Judy Garland role.

Morgan could play a kindly avuncular type.

Fields could not.

R53 Apparently you never saw David Copperfield.

R37, “it has twice the pick up!”

I played the Tin Man and we did the jitterbug.

It's hard to imagine the movie without Frank Morgan, but W.C. Fields would have been great.

[quote] I shit you not.

I beg to differ, sir.

PROFESSOR Let's see -- you're -- you're travelling in disguise as a skid row whore.. No, that's not right. I -- you're -- you're going on a visit. No, I'm wrong. That's...You're -- running away from a couple of old bitches.

DOROTHY How did you guess??!

PROFESSOR Professor Marvel never guesses -- he knows! Now, why in the hell are you running away?

DOROTHY Why?

PROFESSOR No, no -- now don't tell me. They -- they beat the shit out of you at home. They don't appreciate the size of your tits. You want to see other cocks besides your uncle’s?

DOROTHY Why, it's just like you could read my mind!

DOROTHY Nobody gives a fuck at home. They think I’m stupid as owl shit!

PROFESSOR Aw, come, come, come --

DOROTHY No, it’s true! They’re a bunch of bitches!

R59, that is hilariouZZZZZZZZZZ

Agree op and the children in my family almost 100 years later love it. It’s a timeless movie.

R59 The Matt Rife version of The Wizard Of Oz.

THANK YOU, r16 and r17 and r47. I thought I was the only one who hated that number which does indeed stops the movie cold. I guess they wanted to give Lahr more screen time, but it probably meant the deletion of the grand return to Oz after the killing of the Wicked Witch. The soundtrack and stills exist - it was even on the original lobby cards - and while it wasn't a long number, it was pretty spectacular. The film needed a bit of sparkle at that point and the reprise of "Hail Hail, the Witch Is Dead" is a nifty bookend to "Ding Dong" in Munchkinland.

The film as it is abruptly cuts from the handing over of the broom in the Witch's Castle to the long slow walk to the Wizards' throne.

It's my favorite movie of all time. It never scared me except for the part with the pigs. I have an absolutely enormous backyard and am planting about a 1/4 acre of poppies so, as I told my landlord, 'I can live my Wizard of Oz dreams'. The poppy field always enchanted me as a child. If I ever get rich, one of the very first things I want to do is buy these (linked), I have kept track of them since I was a little kid.

[quote] “And remember, my sentimental friend, that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others.”

Anybody else disagree with this? I think it's the other way around.

I ask as one with a lot of other posters here in that TWOO is one of my all-time favorite movies.

R63 There's no need for a big procession between the two scenes. It would probably have bored the audience. We want to know what's going to happen with the Wizard once the witch is dead.

It was the apple tree grabbing the apple from Dorothy and speaking in that loud, deep voice that really frightened me as a child. I guess I knew that you're supposed to be on your guard around obvious dangers like tornadoes and green witches, but ordinary, nice things like trees suddenly turning on you was too much!

R65, and Dorothy’s epiphany at the end makes no sense, either.

[quote] IIRC it was originally made clear that Miss Gulch had died in the tornado, but the filmmakers didn't want to end with such bleak content.

Wrong.

R22, I might be misunderstanding your question, but Toto escapes from Miss Gulch, which prompts Dorothy to run away to protect him from recapture. As to Toto’s assumed reprieve, I always figured once Dorothy was so seriously injured the order to kill him would be reconsidered by the sheriff.

Bruce Villanch confirmed on Gilbert Godfried’s podcast that Margaret was a lesbian. He worked with her on a Paul Lynde special and she was hitting on women saying that she’d like to give this one and that one her number.

I always thought that once the sand in the hour glass ran out Dorothy would immediately drop down dead.

I always wondered why she just didn't turn the hourglass over again before the sand ran out.

Personally, I felt bad for her when she had to go to Kansas. That farm looked bleak as fuck - and it's in Kansas.

Never understood why she wanted to go back so bad. Orphaned, no other kids, living in the middle of nowhere with an older aunt and uncle.

She fucked up.

When I was really young, I thought that when you drove across the Kansas state line, everything turned black and white.

I love the movie even as an adult. I think you can see it on different levels as you get older. I have to post the alternate ending from the still missed MadTV.

Mentally and ethically, it kind of does.

r65 I think the theory is along the lines of: "How much you are loved by others" is the result of one's demonstrated selflessness and emotional generosity; "how much you love" can be self-serving and illusory.

Thanks, r78.

You've provided me another way to think about that line.

R59 your post is laugh out loud hilarious

[quote]When I was really young, I thought that when you drove across the Kansas state line, everything turned black and white.

When in actuality it's much worse. You become Republican.

Kansas can't be all bad. After all, it produced DL patron saint Vivian Vance.

R82 thot she was from Albuquerque?

r83 not until after high school.

She was born in Cherryvale and at some point, her family moved to Independence.

R10 considers the presence of the Wizard of Oz in "The Wizard of Oz" to be overdone.

Happily, works of film art are, as all works of art are, safe from subjective tastes. To want less of Frank Morgan, the instigator of Dorothy's transformative experience, mistakes why the role is eponymous. He drives the plot and is the instigator of Dorothy's delirious process-the-solution dream. He's also the destination, and proves false, but partly true, but useless.

As for perfection of the plot (it is, after all, a fever nightmare after great physical and psychological trauma. Toto!), see link.

One mo' time.

R80 is either joking or is 14 years old.

The books, of course, had OZ as a real place and Dorothy went back several times before she and her relatives all lived there. So the Dorothy of the books wasn’t stranded in Kansas.

Neither r87

To disturb the ‘Oh another Trump thread’ poster, isn’t Trump kinda like the Wizard?

I recommend, for anyone who is interested, the screenplay for the movie. The 1989 paperback version contains several appendices with plot additions that had been suggested by the writers — and ultimately rejected. There were a great deal of wild imaginings that could have been included.

I used to love it back when every thread on Datalounge eventually wound up being about Joan Crawford.

Now it's Trump.

R29 half the County!

My favourite film of all time. I remember watching it on tv on Christmas Eve with my grandparents when I was a kid. It never loses its magic and it does have a genuine magic about it. I love the glorious technicolour and pretty much all the music numbers even though I’m generally not a musical person. It’s also a strangely emotional film. You really feel like you’ve been on a journey by the end of it.

Its one flaw is framing the Oz part as just a dream. That was simply because the filmmakers thought people couldn’t accept a high fantasy concept. The books depicted Oz as a real place and, in fact, Dorothy and her family later went to live there. But even so, I love every second of it.

My favorite moment in all of cinema is when Dorothy opens that door into Oz for the first time.

Just a quick mention of how much I enjoyed the books as a kid. They’re really imaginative and fun.

General Jinjur FTW!

Margaret Hamilton and the flying monkeys were amazing.

This is good.

A longer version.

did she finger lady elaine at the carousel?

[quote] did she finger lady elaine at the carousel?

No.

She was more interested in Henrietta Pussycat.

[Quote]I always thought that once the sand in the hour glass ran out Dorothy would immediately drop down dead.

Me too, R72; I think that's the implication. To this day -- despite having seen the film countless times -- I always worry that *this* is the time the Tin Man, Scarecrow, and Lion won't break down the door in time (yes I know -- Mary!).

r95 me too

The special and practical effects are pretty great. At one point, you do see a string attached to the Lion’s tail to make it wag but otherwise, it’s really well done.

The special effects complement the overall story.

They never get in the way of it, which began to happen in cinema sometime in the 1980s.

W. W. Denslow’s Illustrations for the novel

Has anyone here tried that thing of starting Dark Side of the Moon at the MGM’s lion’s roar to see if the CD and the movie synch up?

[quote]But the actual parting scene where Dorothy says goodbye to her three dear friends, friends who'd carried through that journey with her? At age 59 I'm a weeping mess. Until I was 19 I'd never suffered loss of a dearly loved one. But from 19- now, that parting scene hits me hard. It describes physical loss, emotional loss, loss of childhood dreams, loss of the irreplaceable relatives, parents, friends, pets in your life. They're gone, but you have to stay and go on. And it's fucking hard.

You mean the scene where she tells the Scarecrow she prefers him to the Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion... right in front of the other two? Even as a child I knew Dorothy was a rude and thoughtless bitch.

It's best attempted after copious amounts of pot, r107

[quote] Bruce Villanch confirmed on Gilbert Godfried’s podcast that Margaret was a lesbian. He worked with her on a Paul Lynde special and she was hitting on women saying that she’d like to give this one and that one her number.

Florence Henderson must have been traumatized!

Dorothy telling the Scarecrow she'd miss him most of all never bothered me. I don't know ... she'd known him the longest.

It’s ok if you like your stars pudgy and hunchbacked.

R68 It always made sense to me. She just went through a crazy, scary experience, and now she realizes she never really wanted to go over the rainbow - she loves being at home with the people she loves.

R111 He was the most lovable. The audience feels the same way as she does. Me, anyway.

Thank you, [R16]. Agreed that number is a dud and slows down the picture!

It's remarkable and probably should have won best picture over GWTW. Don't hate me for saying.

[quote] [R111] He was the most lovable. The audience feels the same way as she does. Me, anyway.

Whatever. That does not negate that it's rude of her to say that in front of the others.

Practical sfx at their finest.

Simple but ingenious and effective.

The tornado was also seen in High Barbaree (1947) (June Allyson and Van Johnson)

And in Cabin in the Sky (1943) (Ethel Waters, Lena Horne).

Some footage restored from the cyclone sequence. I love the part where the cyclone surrounds the house and seems to lift it up.

Vs. the actual final sequence in the film:

The ending makes me sad sometimes. Dorothy will end up married to Hunk (the Scarecrow), one of the farmhands, and end up living the same drab, joyless life as Auntie Em.

R14 Are you kidding, with a voice like that?

Cut Dorothy some slack, R117. She said it in a dream state.

The whole movie is just an overlong presidential campaign commercial for William Jennings Bryan.

You shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns, you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold.

What are your thoughts on Return to Oz? It came nearly 50 years later and it somehow looks much cheaper in terms of Fx, sets and makeup. I also don’t know what they were thinking with the horrifying beginning and electric shock therapy. It’s obviously a little truer to the books, but comes across at times like a horror film for kids. Doesn’t have the same magic?

r129 AWFUL. Terrible. Ugly. An abomination. Too many frightening sequences, not nearly enough charm.

Oops. r128, I obviously wrote r129 for you

I love Return to Oz precisely because it's the direct opposite of the original. There was no way to recapture the first film's charm, so they leaned into the nightmarish aspects of the books, which were legion. The Wheelers, Mombi's chamber of heads, the Gnome King and his court are all amazing. And the score is exquisite.

I'm with the executives at MGM. They should have cut Somewhere Over the Rainbow. It slows down the picture when we just want to get on with the picture. Then Garland sings it at every concert and show she ever did. If she were a royal she'd sing it at the opening of a supermarket. I never want to hear that fucking song again. And Glinda wears a used dress from Maytime or some other Jeanette MacDonald movie! Adrian got lazy. Though the munchkin costumes are wonderful. Some of the most ingenious for a movie.

Now the Bert Lahr number has some of the most brilliant lyrics ever. Sondheim couldn't come close. Prince and chintz. Beautiful.

[quote]I'm with the executives at MGM. They should have cut Somewhere Over the Rainbow.

r132 = Deanna Durbin

It's a wonder Garland didn't sing it in every subsequent movie she ever did including Judgement at Nuremberg.

The line "What makes the muskrat guard his musk?" always makes me laugh.

I hated "If I were King of the Forest" when I was a kid, but now I appreciate it.

I can’t imagine Wizard of Oz without “Over the Rainbow”. It’s sublime, one of the most beautiful songs of all time and it adds to the movie because it gives you insight into Dorothy’s character and foreshadows the coming adventure. If any song should have been cut it’s “If I Were King of the Forest”. It’s not particularly good, it’s not necessary and feels a bit like filler.

I kind of like Return to Oz because I have a fondness for 80’s fantasy and sci-fi movies. It’s a completely different beast to the original tonally. Maybe too nightmarish, with not enough wonder. Outside of Mombi’s exquisite palace, it’s also quite ugly visually which for me is its biggest crime. I recently rewatched it in hd and it’s been scrubbed up and looks a bit more colourful, but the production design and over reliance on location shooting doesn’t do it many favours.

I’m scared to even ask what people think of the James Franco prequel.

R133 I got out of that shit business!

R137, mostly terrible, alas They were going to cast Robert Downey Jr. as the wizard, who might have had some fun with the idea of a charismatic fraud in way over his head. But Franco really is a gaping hole in the screen. He was very good looking when young, but he just seems so washed-out and ultimately sleazy in the role that the conceit collapses and he doesn't have the nimble quality to make the sleaze funny, the way Depp did with Pirates of the Caribbean.

RETURN TO OZ is Tim Burton's favorite film. He even owns a print of it.

I love the dramatic first six notes of the overture (repeated twice) which sounds like the opening of a horror film.

R74 is ripping off John Waters.

Return to Oz is closer to the books and the tone.

One of Hollywoods best ever. Yes it is magical and continues to enchant new generations despite being more than 80 years old. Even the 1938 technology holds up due to the pure imagination and charm of its execution.

R15 needs her Seroquel NOW!

This image always scared me as a kid -- especially when the legs are sucked under the house.

The transition from sepia to color was brilliant. However since every print prior to the laserdisc restoration had regular black and white, the transition effect was ruined since it went from B&W to color instead of sepia to color as intended.

R146 agreed. But the next shot of the WWW kneeling in front of a screened image of the house is the worst cut in the film…clearly they had a re-shoot… poorly done. 🤷🏻‍♂️

R147 pre-Laser disc times: the great majority only had the tv version to go on, so we didn’t know the difference. In context of the viewer, it still worked just fine back then.

Margaret Hamilton got to wear the Ruby Slippers in the movie Brewster McCloud.

There aren’t a lot of movie appearances from Bert Lahr, so for that reason I like “If I Were King Of The Forest.” It’s a chance to see this great burlesque comedian in action.

By the way, his son, John Lahr, wrote about how odd it was to see his dead father’s image on children’s lunchboxes.

One of the strangest Bert Lahr film moments , the "Woof" song , cut from the 1937 Fox film LOVE AND HISSES.

The entire character was built around Lahr. The song works.

Here’s the original scene from "The Wizard of Oz" showing the munchkin that committed suicide on-screen by hanging! This is the original footage before MGM tried to cover up the catastrophic publicity with various cover stories. This is an incredibly tragic moment, but you can clearly see the munchkin hanging from a noose in the background of this scene. He's the dark silhouette swaying in the center of the blue sky background, between trees, above the heads of the Tin Man and Dorothy

Just the fuck up with your nonsense. Don’t try to frail this lovely thread by being an ass.

Derail*

Don’t let DeFacto/Grog derail the thread

I had behind the chair whenever the witch showed up. I was very ouster when they went in the castle because I was sure they would see the cowardly lion’s tail twitching beneath his coat

Anyone who thinks that "Over the Rainbow" slows down the move and should have been cut is clearly lacking a soul.

How could everybody have not noticed a corpse swinging overhead as they filmed a scene? C’mon. Such nonsense.

[quote]Has anyone here tried that thing of starting Dark Side of the Moon at the MGM’s lion’s roar to see if the CD and the movie synch up?

We did this years ago in college at my fraternity house. My recollection is that it does line up all the way through Great Gig in the Sky, and then it sort of falls apart. It’s worth a spin if you’re with a group of friends and you’re all high.

You need a lot of ‘shrooms to get that done…just sayin’

[quote]How could everybody have not noticed a corpse swinging overhead as they filmed a scene? C’mon.

What baffles me is the how the cameraman and lighting designer didn't notice while setting up the scene.

They were in on it! 😵‍💫

^ Was Alec Baldwin on set?

“The fact that the Munchkins weren’t due to arrive on set until after the Tin Woodsman sequence had been filmed should be enough to put paid to the legend that one of them met their maker in the woods.”

[quote] How could everybody have not noticed a corpse swinging overhead as they filmed a scene? C’mon. Such nonsense.

Hanging was common on the set in 1939.

That ridiculous nonsense about the Munchkin suicide has been debunked numerous times over many years. And, still it pops up repeatedly. 🙄

Minus the hanging munchkin myth, I'm loving this thread. Thanks, DL!

i love that Andrea Caselotti, (the voice of Snow White) was "Wherefore art thou, Romeo?".

After SNOW WHITE became the biggest Hollywood smash since BEN-HUR (and until GONE WITH THE WIND, was the highest grossing sound film) since I'll bet Mayer was very grumpy he turned down the opportunity to be Disney's distributor in 1935. Irving Thalberg was very keen to have Disney associated with MGM, but Disney was cool to the idea after MGM's HOLLYWOOD PARTY of 1933 (where Disney supplied both an appearance by Mickey Mouse and a Technicolor number "Hot Chocolate Soldiers" by Brown & Freed) was a huge bomb... and Mayer hated the Silly Symphonies, which Thalberg loved.

MGM flirted with the idea of hiring Disney as technical advisor to THE WIZARD OF OZ, and Disney lent MGM his personal print of SNOW WHITE for the MGM writers to study. The Dwarves 'Theme" "Heigh-Ho" suggested that a similar theme be done for OZ, which inspired "We're Off To See The Wizard" And of course the original idea for the Wicked Witch was Gale Sondergaard in a slinky black sequined gown and witches hat, a twin sister to the Evil Queen of SNOW WHITE.

That wasn’t a munchkin, it was just Mickey Rooney pulling a prank.

I watched this documentary a few weeks ago. I loved it! It’s really just interviews eight of the last surviving actors who played the Munchkins. But there’s so much information. It was fascinating to me.

I love the little jokes in the Munchkin lyrics. “From now on you’ll be history, you’ll be hissed, you’ll be hissed, you’ll be history. And we will glorify your name. You will be a bust, be a bust, be a bust - in the hall of fame!”

An interesting look at filming on the poppyfield set as Dorothy and friends run through the expansive hills of dangerous red flowers 🌺🌹🌷 Look closely and you’ll see Bert Lahr and Judy Garland running in front of the camera.

Behind the scenes while filming in the haunted forest! This is one of my favorite photos from set, showcasing the camera crew and technicians

The Wizard of Oz was actually cursed. Buddy Ebsen, who was originally cast as the Tin Man, almost died from the aluminum makeup. Margaret Hamilton was severely burned from her green makeup, and she fell through a trap door in the floor.

Universal had to pay MGM to allow them to use the exact shade of green that was used on Margaret Hamilton in the original movie on Cynthia Erivo in the upcoming Wicked film. Apparently, MGM copyrighted the green makeup shade.

R26 Dorothy falling into the pig pen also freaked me out as a kid. I think she overdid it. That old cunt Miss Elvira Gulch blew my mind when she came to get Toto . I was livid that Aunty Em and Uncle Henry allowed it. But I was young and thought parents could fix anything. May as well learn that reality soon as possible I guess.

You can see in the film that when Hamilton spins around to position herself above the elevator, the flames and smoke came before she was safely below set. She suffered second-degree burns on her face and third-degree burns on her hand. The green makeup covering her body was copper-based and toxic if absorbed, so Hamilton's burned skin had to be thoroughly cleaned with acetone.

I always wondered what Auntie Em was dying to tell Almira Gulch.

[quote] Universal had to pay MGM to allow them to use the exact shade of green that was used on Margaret Hamilton in the original movie on Cynthia Erivo in the upcoming Wicked film. Apparently, MGM copyrighted the green makeup shade.

They’re actually making Erivo wear the makeup? I thought they’d add the coloring by computer after the filming.

You’d think that for a girl growing up on a farm that falling into a pig pen would be no big deal.

Pigs are a force to be reckoned with, r181

How many takes did Judy have to do before she got falling into a pigpen right?

I watched this documentary unceasingly as a child.

r176, r177, after Margaret got burned, she refused to do anything with fire and made her stunt double do the rest. The stunt double also got badly burned with the broom stick (which was apparently something like a exhaust pipe with fuel it).

r175: Thats fascinating about the green makeup. I know about Universal paying MGM to use the Ruby Slippers (they are silver in the OZ books)...wonder how much they paid?

R185 I don’t blame her. Knowing what happened, I cant watch the scene where the Witch disappears into the flames without wincing. Whoever was in charge of health and safety should have been carried off by the flying monkeys.

As Margaret Hamilton describes it in the documentary at r184, the incident in which she was burned is NOT the one that's shown in the film.

[quote] I know about Universal paying MGM to use the Ruby Slippers (they are silver in the OZ books)...wonder how much they paid?

Universal is also paying MGM for the likenesses of the Scarecrow, Tin Man, Cowardly Lion and Dorothy and her ruby slippers. Wicked is going to feature these characters more prominently than did the stage musical.

Half a dozen rainbows appeared directly over the set while filming Wicked in London. A prominent psychic told the cast that Judy Garland, Margaret Hamilton and Billie Burke had sent them as a blessing for the project.

Ok—then I’d say the film version shows you that the special effect went off too early in multiple takes, if the one use so clearly shows the fire and brimstone starting before she is in the proper position.

The fire shot of the Wicked Witch leaving Munchkinland seen in the film is the very first take. All those concerned were fully awake and "on the ball". Then they called lunch. When they got back, the same guys who had done the perfect shot earlier had their bellies full and were now drowsy, thinking about lunchtime conversations, ready for a nap, ready to go home; in short, not paying attention.

The next attempt, the flames came up around the platform before Margaret Hamilton was safely under the set floor and the section of Yellow Brick Road had not swung around over the trap door, resulting in the broom catching fire, then the hat, and her left hand and arm and the left side of her face.

Stage hands under the set grabbed the broom from her, knocked the hat off, and the makeup guy grabbed her up and ran for the makeup trailer. All the while, she was laughing hysterically. They thought she had lost her mind, but she was really laughing at how funny they were acting. Aside from warmth on her face and arm, she had no idea what was going on. In the makeup trailer, the makeup up man offered an apology before he started work, then proceeded to use cotton balls with alcohol to remove the green makeup. It contained copper and he was worried it would get into her blood stream through the open wounds, resulting in copper poisoning.

The bastards at MGM thought she would be back at work the next day!

Thanks for that, r191, being a makeup artist, that is fascinating to me. When I work with stunt people, we cannot use anything with alcohol (we use alcohol based paints for longevity) or adhesives with flammable materials (there are quite a few) when they do fire stunts. They can't even glue on wigs, but use just the barest amount of pins, should we have to go in and rip off the wig.

R191 you say the first take was perfect. The take used in film is not perfect—the timing was clearly off.

I don't think I've ever seen it in full, and I'm 51. I probably did when I was little, but I don't remember all of it. I think I know more about it because it's cultural canon and is referenced and discussed in a lot of different places.

Funny how the witch dominates the movie. In the book, she’s really only in one chapter and is disposed of pretty quickly.

We represent the piss n shit guild

[quote]Funny how the witch dominates the movie.

Margaret Hamilton has only 12 minutes of screen time in the movie.

And most of that is all in the climactic castle chase.

[quote]SURRENDER DOROTHY

[quote]SURRENDER DOROTHY

R21: I had that t-shirt as a teenager, 1983-84! I didn't like Wizard of Oz as a kid (still don't), so I thought it was hilarious. I think I bought it at AAHS! in Westwood Village.

[quote] agreed. But the next shot of the WWW kneeling in front of a screened image of the house is the worst cut in the film…clearly they had a re-shoot…

Nah. They just wanted a full shot of the effect. Keep in mind that it took forever for the negatives to be made and by the time they were done it would be a day or so later after they filmed. They had no time to reshoot anything. They just hoped for the best.

Fake nails weren’t a thing then. Margaret’s nails were made from film negatives and they kept popping off.

Why was it changed to black and white from sepia on the early VHS releases?

The fake snow during the poppy field scene was actually asbestos, which is highly cancerous.

They were exposing the actors to all kinds of deadly toxins, like asbestos, copper and aluminum. It's a miracle that they didn't all drop dead after production was finished.

Margaret Hamilton as the Wicked Witch of the West in 1939’s “The Wizard of Oz” (MGM) 🧹🔮 Notice she has a different hairdo and less prosthetics than she would in the final film. This color footage was taken by the film’s composer Harold Arlen, and was taken during the first few weeks of production while director Richard Thorpe was at the helm. Soon after this footage was taken during a portrait session, production was halted, the director fired, and creative changes made (including to Margaret’s hair and makeup).

Credit to Margaret Hamilton. She’s only in 12 minutes (!) and suffered horribly for her art, but she gave one of the most memorable and iconic performances in Hollywood history. Even though by the time I was a kid, the images of witches with green skin and pointy black hats is kitsch at best, she fecking well terrified me!

How did Margaret Hamilton not get an Oscar nomination for Oz? She was every bit as good and memorable as Hattie McDaniel in Gone With the Wind, who won the Oscar that year.

The chipmunks genuflect to me.

R199 - Westwood Village was quite the college age scene in the mid / late 80s. USC even ran a shuttle there on Friday & Saturday nights. Then the Santa Monica Promenade opened, there were some gang-related shootings, and the whole place quickly became a ghost town.

There was one gang shooting of a bystander —in 1988. There was a recession in 1989 that had a material adverse impact on commercial real estate…in California. That’s what hurt Westwood.

Can't believe I'm the first to make this comment, it's no doubt because I'm so damn old (74), but I can't tell you how many years I watched and ADORED this film in black & white on our old TV, little suspecting there was a huge change into Technicolor at Dorothy's arrival in Oz. I don't think I saw a color print of the film until I was in college in the late 60s at a campus film festival. I was astonished all over again.

As to the question of period in regard to the Kansas clothes we see, Miss Gulch and the Professor do sport Victorian clothes but Dorothy's gingham dress couldn't be more of a classic 1930's frock. So, Adrian the brilliant costume designer deftly mixed periods in a subtle way that gave the film a timeless look for all-time.

As some here may know, Adrian became very fond of cotton gingham plaid and featured it in his couture line after he left MGM in 1941. Because Oscars weren't given for Costume Design until 1949 (unbelievable!), Adrian never was awarded an Oscar, not even an honorary one. He occasionally would design films in the 40s and early 50s, but mostly inconsequential contemporary comedies, nothing major (except for sometimes the uncredited leading lady costumes). He died in 1960 while designing the costumes for Broadway's Camelot before the show started dress rehearsals.

If it was the early 1900s, why was the entire Emerald City Streamline Moderne / art deco? Hmmm 🥸

Dorothy wore 1930s bobby sox.

IIRC Dorothy's socks were not white.

A lot of the Munchkins' costumes are based on high fashion of the 1830s but with a Deco slant. That Adrian was brilliant!

She may have only been in 22 minutes, R197, but Hopkins is only in “Silence of the Lambs” for 16 minutes and he dominated as well. It’s the screen presence.

The WWOTW is ingrained in the film.

Me too, r210. All of my memories of the great children’s TV classics—Oz, Cinderella, Magoo’s Christmas Carol, Peter Pan—are in black and white.

*12 minutes

It’s not screen time —it’s how the story relates to that character even when not on the screen. Her broom is the McGuffin for Dorothy. (And I guess that makes the ruby slippers a McGuffin as well for the WW). It all adds up to a constant presence even when she’s not there…no?

The Wizard of Oz is the first horror film that most children see. It's downright terrifying and traumatizing to small children. The whole movie is DARK. I think that's why it continues to resonate to this day. The combination of the fun and the terrifying is irresistible, like a ride on a roller coaster.

Jeff Goldblum and Jimmy Kimmel talk here about how The Wizard of Oz was too scary for them and their kids. Goldblum said he even started crying while filming Wicked because it's so scary, and how it will traumatize a whole new generation of kids for the rest of their lives.

One of my favorite memories from my childhood, OP, was watching this movie every year with my siblings and mother. It was her favorite movie. I loved the flying monkeys—they were terrifying!

R34 you made my cry. I never knew that song was called Optimistic Voices.

Thank you for taking the time to express a few of the reasons that the movie is special.

When we're young, most of us, particularly gay men, dream of leaving our hometowns and having adventures. Eventually, we do. We move far away from where we were raised to big cities and towns. But, eventually you realize your hometown was a pretty special place, and your time there was simpler. But you can never go back because a place exists in time, not just location.

THAT'S the magic of The Wizard of Oz. Dorothy gets to do what we all wish we could do at one time or another. Go home again.

[quote] He occasionally would design films in the 40s and early 50s, but mostly inconsequential contemporary comedies, nothing major (except for sometimes the uncredited leading lady costumes).

R210 You probably just forgot about this, but Adrian designed the women’s clothes for Lovely To Look At (1952). Big MGM musical remake of Roberta, w/ Kathryn Grayson, Red Skelton, Howard Keel, Marge & Gower Champion. Takes place in a Paris fashion salon, and ends with a big, elegant formal fashion show directed by Vincent Minnelli. The whole movie is an Adrian fest.

[quote] As to the question of period in regard to the Kansas clothes we see, Miss Gulch and the Professor do sport Victorian clothes but Dorothy's gingham dress couldn't be more of a classic 1930's frock

R210 The first Oz book was published in 1900, the Victoria era ended 1901. I would call the era of the movie post-Victorian. I don’t think there are any automobiles or trucks seen in the Kansas scenes. Professor Marvel has a horse. There’s no radio in the farmhouse. It’s just not 1938-39.

Dorothy’s gingham dress may have a somewhat 1930s style, but it’s based loosely on the illustrations of the book, where Dorothy wore a blue and white gingham dress. I don’t think Dorothy is dressed like a modern late-‘30s teenager at all, in the film.

King Vidor said he didn’t want to mention it when Victor Fleming was alive, but some years later he admitted he directed the Kansas sequences, including Over The Rainbow. He was proud to have directed the number.

[quote]I don’t think there are any automobiles or trucks seen in the Kansas scenes.

Aren't the three farmhands trying to fix a tractor at some point?

It's a wagon, r226

I think there’s something beautiful about the message of appreciating what you have; often it’s not until we lose something that we appreciate its value.

Aunt Em & Uncle Henry wanted to get rid of Dorothy. She’s banging on the storm cellar door and they won’t let her in. They were hoping for one less mouth to feed and with Dorothy falling into pig pens, she wasn’t much use around the farm. A family named Ingalls came traveling through and even they wouldn’t take her. Said they already had four daughters, but if she were a son, they’d have taken her.

This episode of Sesame Street was televised only once.

It has Margaret Hamilton playing the Wicked Witch of the West, but it apparently scared young children.

She’s much older here, but does a good job and still could sound like the WWW.

Thanks for sharing, r230!

That was amazing, [R230]. Big Bird accidentally mispronounces Mr. Hooper’s name and then corrects himself. I assume it was a Blooper and they didn’t have time to reshoot. Did anyone else catch that?

I just rewatched [r230] again and one of the little kids actually whispers and corrects Big Bird when he incorrectly calls Mr. Hooper “Mr. Looper” 😂

r213: Bobby sox weren't always white

r219: OZ, SNOW WHITE and especially PINOCCHIO contain moments of horror that traumatized generations of kids. The 'Donkey transformation' scene in PINOCCHIO and the shot of the drowned Pinocchio face down in water are still pretty shocking.

Sorry, r234, but the very definition of bobby sox is: white socks.

MGM execs loved to scare little kids…by showing their dicks.

[quote]OZ, SNOW WHITE and especially PINOCCHIO contain moments of horror that traumatized generations of kids.

Don't forget Bambi!! "Your mother can't be with you anymore."

MARY!!!!!

Good news:

The ruby slippers that were stolen in 2005 and recovered by the FBI in 2018 were finally reunited with their owner, Michael Shaw!

Why was the FBI holding on to those shoes for 5 years?

I don't care for it. I also didn't care for Pinocchio and Peter Pan.

R232 that was a running joke. Big Bird never got his name right in any episode.

For those "Wizard of Oz" fans who have some spare money lying around, a judge has ruled that a dress worn by Judy Garland in the movie can be auctioned. It was stashed away in a box at Catholic University and forgotten about for years. The box was found on top of some old file cabinets.

r241 everyone on this thread should chip in to buy it.

r238 The FBI was holding on to them because they look simply stunning complementing the agents' bloodshot eyes.

Ah the dulcet sounds of the harmonica playing "Sunny Day". Thanks R230.

I grew up on horror (my first theatrical movie experience was, "The Abominable Dr. Phibes", so TWOZ never scared me. This, Fantasia, and Singin' In the Rain were our family's annual viewing rituals. Still a comfort movie for me, and I never tire of it.

Not TWOZ.

TWOO.

I'm afraid there no denyin' I'm just a dandelion

Anything that was based on Grimm's Fairytales was going to be scary. If you've ever read the original tales, they are gruesome.

Dorothy was for all intents and purposes a worthless bitch.

r59 = r80 = r248

R249

It's based on Grimm's fairy tales?

[quote]It's based on Grimm's fairy tales?

Not The Wizard of Oz. I was talking about some of the other titles, which were Grimm adaptations, because people were saying how scary TWOO was. I was agreeing that many children's movies can be terrifying.

I'm afraid there no denyin'

I'm just a dandy lion!

This is pretty cool—the voices of the three actors who played the Lollipop Guild before their voices were replaced by the ones we hear in the movie.

R254 not gonna lie, those three always creep me out a bit. It’s the twitchy dance; it’s like they’re having some kind of drug related seizure.

To Kill A Mockingbird is perfect too.

But "To Kill a Mockingbird" doesn't have the Singer Midgets.

Now voyager is fucking perfect too

Dr. Strangelove is a movie at hits PERFECTLY every single target it aimed at. As close to perfect as a movie can get.

None of those other films features JUDY GARLAND, bitches.

"To Kill a Mockingbird" would have been a lot better with some flying monkeys.

It's funny that all of the major characters that Dorothy meets in Oz are played by people that she knows from her life in Kansas, except for Glinda. Why is that? I think it would have made more sense if Billie Burke had played a friendly neighbor in Kansas, or some similar character, at the beginning of the movie.

R262 because her character’s purpose is unique—she’s otherworldly…a guardian angel. If she been a counterpart to a sepia Kansan then the whole bit about tap your heels, etc. would have made little sense. Someone from home telling her she can go home doesn’t quite work.

Always wondered about Glinda's hairstyle which didn't seemed based on any particular period nor was even very flattering on a woman of Billie Burke's age. She looks kind of like a cocker spaniel. But maybe it was a brilliant choice in its utter quirkiness?

There's been a persistent rumor out there in vintage Hollywood costume circles that Glinda's gown was actually originally a gown that Adrian had designed for Jeanette MacDonald for San Francisco but reworked a bit for Billie Burke. Sorry not to link a photo for comparison (I stink at that but it's easily googled) but I think that's ridiculous. As if MGM couldn't afford to build a new dress for Miss Burke! And the work it would have taken to alter the dress would have been more complex than starting fresh, especially in all that delicate tulle fabric. The bodice and skirt shapes are actually quite different.

R254 I like the real actors voices better.

R254 As an adult I don’t know what I think of her wig but as a kid I thought she was beautiful. Also most people who don’t know Billie Burke’s age in the movie ae pretty surprised when they discover it. I think the wig is to mask some stuff- probably that they taped her face back a bit.

R262 All the major characters Dorothy meets in Oz are people from her life in Kansas, but not all the people from her life in Kansas have counterparts in Oz. Auntie Em and Uncle Henry aren’t represented as characters in Oz, while the three farmhands, Miss Gulch, and Prof. Marvel are. Why is that?

“Always wondered about Glinda's hairstyle which didn't seemed based on any particular period nor was even very flattering on a woman of Billie Burke's age. She looks kind of like a cocker spaniel. But maybe it was a brilliant choice in its utter quirkiness?”

She was 52 when they shot the movie, and she was probably the second best-known actor in the movie—she’d been famous for so long. The hair matched the voice ;)

She was married to that Flo Ziegfield.

Glinda's look was a throwback to the "fairy" phenomenon of the late 1800s early 1900s. It was perfect.

No —not even close.

R270 No, you're wrong.

The look is Victorian fairy.

....

r267 she was born in 1884, so she would have been 54/55 when they shot the film.

I do believe in spooks. I do, I do, I do, I do, I do!

Neither picture reveals anything similar to Glinda’s costume.

Or possibly Salman Rushdie, R142.

Odd that they didn't put Billie into an Edwardian styled wig that hearkened back to her youth and the height of her beauty.

R275 Follow the thread. I am referring to the comment "Always wondered about Glinda's hairstyle which didn't seemed based on any particular period nor was even very flattering on a woman of Billie Burke's age. She looks kind of like a cocker spaniel."

The Victorian era and Edwardian era had an interest in fairies and witches...books, plays...it was a fad. They were always portrayed with long hair and a cap or a garland of flowers.

Baum's 14 books about OZ come from that era and the original illustrations portray Glinda with long hair. Baum even wrote a novel devoted to Glinda in 1920.

"In the books, Glinda is depicted as a beautiful young woman WITH LONG RICH RED HAIR and blue eyes, wearing a pure white dress. She is much older than her appearance would suggest, but "knows how to keep young in spite of the many years she has lived" - a fact that is established in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, by the Soldier with the Green Whiskers. She has ruled the Quadling Country ever since she overthrew the Wicked Witch of the South during the period when Ozma's grandfather was king of Oz."

By the time the 1939 "The Wizard of Oz" was released, the public was well familiar with the characters and the story. "By 1938, more than one million copies of the book had been printed." The film's costumes were inspired by the original illustrations.

It astounds me that Glinda's dress, crown and scepter were not saved by MGM. They were able to preserve many of the other costumes, but not one of the most famous dresses ever in the history of cinema? It boggles the mind. Imagine being able to visit the Smithsonian to view the ruby red slippers alongside Glinda's dress.

Neither picture reveals anything similar to Glinda’s hair.

There now.

You can prattle on as you see fit. TIA

R280 = blind

All the Edwardian girls had bright red perm jobs!

Girls! Girls! You're BOTH exhausting!

Auntie Em was a good christian woman but what she wanted to say to Gulch was go fuck yourself with a broomstick. Dorothy did ask Auntie Em later and Auntie told her which is why she reappears as the witch but it was cut in previews because audience members were yelling 'You go girl!' and Louis B said it would be a distraction.

This was such a fun store...

Burke is so different in this film than she is in all her others. She's warm and wise where in everything else she's a silly rich woman. Ziegfeld lost his considerable fortune in '29. His stockbroker saw what was going to happen and tried calling him but he was in court fighting a scenic designer over the cost of a $1,000 backdrop. Something like that. Anyway of course he never recovered died a few years later and Burke continued working to pay off Ziegfeld's debts. She was made of sterner stuff.

And yes I've read in a number of places that Glinda's dress was repurposed from a Jeanette MacDonald film which Adrian had already designed. You can imagine how stuffed the MGM warehouses were with all sorts of elaborate costumes which were mostly destroyed in a fire.

Garbo said to Adrian, 'I never liked wearing your clothes.' She probably would have liked to have done Camille in a pullover sweater and a pair of slacks.

Aunt Em! They’re all a bunch of bitches!

[quote]It astounds me that Glinda's dress, crown and scepter were not saved by MGM.

I saw Glinda's scepter several years ago at the Smithsonian's Museum of American History, along with Ray Bolger's Scarecrow hat and the ruby slippers that are on permanent display there.

Was it the Tin Man or the Lion who was coded gay? Or were they just gay baiting?

My great grandmother dated Jack Haley.

Jack Haley's Boston accent certainly comes through in the movie. "If I only had a haaaht."

True, R292!

He also come across as a bit mincing.

Bolger also had a New England accent.

Of any of them, the Tin Man was definitely the most fey. The Scarecrow was bumbling and the Lion a … well, a scaredy cat.

Bolger had a very specific Boston accent. Dorchester.

I went to college in Boston in the 70s and we had a lovely old cook in our dorm from Dorchester and she pronounced potatoes as bid-day-duhs.

r278, Respectfully, your entire defense of Glinda's hairstyle being based on the Victorian/Edwardian image of fairies is belied by the fact that Glinda's gown has nothing to do with those original Oz illustrations of a "pure white dress."

Burke's bubble gum pink dress is more of a fantasy version of mid-18th century French fashions a la Marie Antoinette with its wide panniers.....though the pink tulle, of course, is total MGM/Adrian fantasy time.

The Wicked Witch's crystal ball prop still exists and is in a private collection. I don't understand why they don't loan it to the Smithsonian, or the Academy Museum of Motion Pictures. It should be on display for the world to enjoy.

Was Flo Ziegfeld still alive when Billie Burke did The Man Who Came to Dinner?

If I could have one prop from the movie it would be the Witch's hourglass. Although she threw it off the balcony and shattered it I've always hoped that that was just a copy for use in that scene and that someone somewhere has the original.

R 298 *sigh* Yes, the dress is different, but the hairstyle......which was the topic of the conversation..... was obviously inspired by the Victorian/Edwardian images of fairies and witches.

That frizzy perm?! Drop it.

But can't you see, r302, without the total picture, the imagery is lost? And tbh, Billie's hairstyle is much more trimmed and formalized than the streaming wild locks of those illustrated fairies.

R304 Hon, you're a bore.

You're BOTH boring!!

[quote]Of any of them, the Tin Man was definitely the most fey. The Scarecrow was bumbling and the Lion a … well, a scaredy cat.

Please. The Lion is as gay as an Adrian frock. On the line, "I'm just a dandy-lion," he even does the de rigueur limp-wristed gesture.

Jack Haley had a major case of gay face. Even with all that makeup on. I’m still convinced he was a friend of Dorothy in more ways than one.

Like father, like son.

Girl...

Like mother, like daughter.

Gay son face

Jack Haley said he had to come up with a voice for the Tin Man since originally Fleming wasn’t happy with Haley’s own voice, for the character. So he said he tried speaking in the voice he used when he read bedtime stories to his kids.

R300, Ziegfeld died nine years before “The Man Who Came to Dinner” (1941).

Billie Burke didn’t always play that flighty society matron type. She gave a straight dramatic performance in A Bill Of Divorcement, for example. (The one with John Barrymore and Katharine Hepburn.)

When I was a little boy, I thought Glinda was the most beautiful woman I’d ever seen.

When I was older, I was like, she’s a lot older than I thought!

The more hi-def they make the film, the older she gets.

I think it was in the ‘80s, I went to see the movie when it was playing in a theater so I could watch it for once on a big screen. There were these three people behind me, two gay guys and a woman. They started right away, saying all the lines aloud, ahead of the actors. I moved away from them but I could still hear them, saying the lines and laughing at everything. Still annoyed by it.

Weren’t several pieces of instrumental music in the film pre-existing? I remember once hearing some Schumann somewhere and it was the opening music when Dorothy is running down the road.

My brother and sister were in a kid's presentation o TWOO, complete with 2 or 3 of the missing musical numbers (I remember The Jitterbug as one of them). It was something like 3 hours- I was ready to cut my wrists- the only thing I could think of why they would include all the numbers so that all the kids could participate (it was a huge group).

Have any of you seen the Oz exhibit at the Academy Museum? They have the ruby slippers, owned by Leo DiCaprio and Stephen Spielberg, as well as the Wicked Witch's hat, along with many other items.

[quote] Don’t let DeFacto/Grog derail the thread

R156, do you ever look in the mirror and feel bad about what a fool you’ve turned out to be?

Did you grow up in an orphanage?

I wonder how Dorothy was orphaned.

I don't think there were any details about it in the original novel -- which this thread has made me want to read again. I remember reading it as a kid and realizing how different it was from the movie, but charming in its own way.

Is/was Jack Haley Jr. gay? Is he still with us?

I'm forever eternally grateful to him for producing THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT 1, 2, & 3! They introduced me to so many MGM stars and musical numbers I hadn't known before.

R324, he died in 2001.

Ray Bolger was originally cast as The Tin Man but complained to LB Mayer until he relented and switched the casting of Bolger and Buddy Ebsen. Which is a little surprising as I can see how Ebsen with his long lanky elastic body would have been perfect casting for The Scarecrow. Ebsen, apparently, didn't mind.

Of course, we all know how that worked out in the end.

For some reason Where's Charley Bolger's big Broadway success was made into a film which the Loesser estate had withdrawn from being shown for decades. I have no idea why. I believe I read it was recently made available. Has anybody seen it? Did Frank Loesser hate it?

I wonder if Ray Bolger was upset this routine was cut, while "If I were King of the Forest" stayed in.

I'm sure it was in Lahr's contract that he got a song that was not to be cut.

Glinda was mean. Why didn’t she tell Dorothy in the beginning she could click her heels three times and go home?

No, Glinda makes the immigrant do all the dirty work.

Bert’s son wrote Elaine Stritch’s solo show.

Dorothy says to Glinda why the hell didn't you tell me right off the bat so I didn't have to go through all this shit. And Glinda says she had to learn it for herself. I'm not sure if Glinda would have made a good therapist.

I very much doubt that Bert Lahr had the power at MGM to demand much of anything in his contract.

I realize his solo is not appreciated by most here but you can be sure if Mayer and the studio execs didn't like it, it would have gotten cut without a care.

I never realized so many people didn't like Bert Lahr's number. I never thought about it. A friend of mine and I used to listen to it on his car radio driving to school and laugh at all the amazing lyrics. (There used to be an album of the movie with songs and dialogue.) I guess not everyone thinks it's a perfect film, huh?

R328 There's a bad print of it on YouTube. Once you get past the credits it's sort of okay. I just remembered my dad told me he and my mom saw this show (on stage) with Bolder and loved it.

*Bolger

Stop shitting on Bert Lahr. Read this and weep…if you have the courage.

[quote]Jack Haley had a major case of gay face.

And a touch of gay voice to go with it.

[quote]Billie Burke didn’t always play that flighty society matron type. She gave a straight dramatic performance in A Bill Of Divorcement, for example. (The one with John Barrymore and Katharine Hepburn.)y

Billie Burke played Mrs. Cosmo Topper in the original movie with Cary Grant and Constance Bennett. When Lee Patrick played the ditzy Henrietta Topper in the TV series (for which Stephen Sondheim wrote some scripts), she played the role very much in the style of Billie Burke. Post-"Topper," Lee Patrick was also typecast as a flighty society matron type. Before the series, Patrick was known for playing tough dames. In "Caged," she plays the prison queen bee who takes a shine to Eleanor Parker.

I always thought that Billie Burke played Norma Shearer's mother in The Women, but recently discovered that it was Lucile Watson. They're very similar actresses.

Lucile Watson isn't at all flighty in "The Women."

R340 In what universe are they similar?

Billie Burke was considered for the role of Aunt Pittypat Hamilton in Gone With The Wind. Of course the perfect actress was cast, Laura Hope Crews.

[quote] I think it was in the ‘80s, I went to see the movie when it was playing in a theater so I could watch it for once on a big screen. There were these three people behind me, two gay guys and a woman. They started right away, saying all the lines aloud, ahead of the actors. I moved away from them but I could still hear them, saying the lines and laughing at everything. Still annoyed by it.

This wasn't in Boston by any chance?

🙄

Dorchester

I'm with R335. The Cowardly Lion sings his number while they're waiting to hear whether the Wizard will see them. The movie can't cut straight to the answer; the audience needs a build-up, and Bert Lahr's shtick helps fill the time. Complaints that the song stops the movie dead in its tracks are misplaced; the action has to stop while we wait with the characters.

But how dare that swishy Tin Man damage the Wizard's floral display!

What an incredible year 1939 was for motion pictures, with The Wizard of Oz, Gone With the Wind, Dark Victory, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, etc., but how did The Women not get nominated for Best Picture? And how did none of the actresses from The Women not get nominations?

[quote] Weren’t several pieces of instrumental music in the film pre-existing?

R319, Mussorgsky’s “Night on Bald Mountain” is the basis for the ”Dorothy’s Rescue” music.

“Basis”? That word is doing a lot of heavy lifting.

Was there a movie theater in Dorchester in the '80s?

Jesus, Mary & Joseph—catch a clue^

Here are Bert Lahr and Bette Davis in a live "Honeymooners"-type sketch. The print's a bit rough and grainy, but it's still a fun watch.

[quote] Jesus, Mary & Joseph—catch a clue^

No one knows what you're talking about.

R344 It was in Cambridge MA. Why?

Not the Brattle or the Orson Welles. There was a big theater in Harvard Square on Mass Ave. that usually played somewhat old films. 5 or 10 years old. But in this case they played TWOO.

The old Harvard Sq Theater?

On Church just off Mass Ave

The Harvard Square Theatre was kind of a dump, but it showed gems. Often fairly recent movies, as R354 says, but they had many double features of Astaire and Rogers, Hitchcock, film noir, musicals and on and on. A great place to get a basic film education. I saw Oz there several times (and kept my mouth shut even though I, too, knew nearly every line).

I miss the old and now shuttered movie theaters in Boston/Cambridge:

The Harvard Square Theatre

The Orson Welles Cinema

The Paris Cinema

The Exeter Street Theatre

The Sack (later Loews) Cheri Theatre

The Nickelodeon Cinema

I miss the Combat Zone…now that was a fun time at the “movies.” 🔥🍆👏🏼

R358, were you a frequenter of the Pilgrim Theatre?

Me Squanto.

[quote]Weren’t several pieces of instrumental music in the film pre-existing?

Robert Schumann's "The Happy Farmer" is heard briefly as Dorothy is running up the road with Toto in the movie's opening scene.

R357Yes, that may have been it. I think they showed Rocky Horror there on weekends in the 80s and I do remember that one on a side street off Mass Ave.

I think there was also a Walter Reade theater that showed oldies, on Mass Ave. in Boston. And there was the Coolidge Corner Theatre, in Brookline. I saw some oldies there - Lust For Life, Dial M For Murder, in 3-D, Ben-Hur, some 50's sci-fi. The BPL also had a lot of good free old movies.

R357 ^

^355

R362, the Coolidge Corner Theatre is still in Brookline.

It's a great nonprofit, independent cinema.

R319 The Happy Farmer

Why credit R357–that’s you!

And why are posting anonymously and then posting as Greg again. All very strange.

R367 R368 I was replying to R357 (not "crediting" R357). The reply didn't work, in my post, so I put the number of the poster (Greg) in the next reply with a pointer.

I am not Greg.

Also - I don't know why you care.

This music was used in the witch's palace for Toto.

Mendelssohn : Scherzo op.16 No.2 in E minor

...........

Because it was 355 who correctly identified the theater …you’re mixing up your own posts, and others.

R372 So you just have a need to correct me? Anyway, no one was responding to their own posts.

Hello, R373,

Pay no attention to R367/R368. He's a mentally unwell bore.

Ignoring him is the best course of action.

[Quote] wonder how Dorothy was orphaned

Isn’t it obvious? She’s an idiot who is bad luck.

[quote]wonder how Dorothy was orphaned

A previous cyclone caused a house to land on her parents.

[quote]wonder how Dorothy was orphaned

Dorothy was the daughter of Miss Gulch and Professor Marvel.

This film contains my favourite brush off line of all time: “You have no power here. Now be gone, before somebody drops a house on you, too!”

R378, I love when Glinda says that.

As soon as she does, the Wicked Witch of the West looks skyward to see if there's a house headed her way.

There are many such fun moments in that film

I always liked Glinda's line, "What a smell of sulphur!"

Professor Marvel / The Wizard have a lot of funny lines, most of which I didn't appreciate as a kid.

I also like:

I am Oz, the great and powerful. Who are you?

If you please, I am Dorothy, the small and meek.

Many of the Oz costumes and props were thrown into a pit dug when MGM was selling most of their land and other assets to build that fucking MGM Grand in Las Vegas. Believe it or not, some things just were not recognized and into the ground they went. Or they were outright stolen.

The only reasons some of the things still exist is because of people garbage picking. There was a stack of paintings someone sorted through and thought, "Hey, these will look great in my kid's room!" These were actually matte paintings and included Munchkinland, the witch's castle, and The Emerald City itself. Imagine not seeing (or caring) you were looking at part of the famous shot of Dorothy and her three friends skipping down The Yellow Brick Road towards their destination!

One of the lion's costumes was spared, but the other was taken by someone who intended to alter it for a Halloween costume for their kid. It laid out in their garage in a garbage bag for years before finally just hitting the curb. Someone else driving along happened to spot it hanging out of the bag and immediately recognized it, stopped his car, and grabbed the bag. This is now the costume that is on a mannequin, complete with a likeness of Bert Lahr and in a display with his own Yellow Brick Road and print of The Emerald City in the background.

As for Dorothy's parents, I don't know why I seem to recall it was mentioned somewhere they died in a shipwreck, which is odd, because in the late 1800s/early 1900s only the wealthy traveled by boat, unless they worked onboard.

the late 1800s/early 1900s only the wealthy traveled by boat

Um, pretty much everyone in the world travelled by boat at that time. The only other option was a train…hot air balloons having proved unreliable.

All this talk about Glinda's dress, crown and scepter; oddly enough, they still have her shoes. They were also pink, high heeled with ankle straps and adorned with tiny butterflies like her dress and choker. They sold in 2004 for $25,000. Why the shoes are still out there and not the rest of the costume...? The crown may have been celluloid and not survived.

Because shoes always went into a different box than the rest of a costume.

Too bad MGM didn't cast Joan as Glinda.

"Are you a good witch, or a bad witch?"

Two of the screenwriters, Edgar Allen Woolf and Florence Ryerson - who also wrote "Ice Fillies of 1939" (above).

[R174] The forest in the picture isn't the Haunted Forest, but the forest the Cowardly Lion was living in. The Haunted Forest was later when they were off to find the witch and get her broom.

*Follies

Noel Langley, the third screenwriter:

As a kid, I was always wanted to know about the Witches of the East and the South. What were they like? Were they good witches, or bad witches? Also, why was only the Wicked Witch's castle shown in the original movie and not Glinda's? I'm excited that the Wicked movie will cover the other witches that we aren't familiar with, and we get to see their castles in the movie.

You excite easily. Are you 10?

Yes I am.

[quote] why was only the Wicked Witch's castle shown in the original movie and not Glinda's?

Why was only Uncle Henry's and Aunt Em's house shown in the movie, and not Miss Gulch's house?

You can hardly compare a spinster's sad house to a grand castle.

What were they supposed to show? Glinda sitting around her castle waiting to come back into the movie at the end?

She was watching over them the entire time—-jeebus. SNOW!

Best theater in the Boston area is the Brattle.

Is that like saying “I went school in the Boston area”? ;)

There's something odd about Auntie Em still being in black and white (sepia) when she shows up in the witch's crystal ball, when the movie is in color at that point.

That’s what you find most odd about Oz?! It’s a dream—for chrissake. She wasn’t really seeing her aunt.

The Exeter was really the best theater to see an old movie (when they showed them) because (unlike the Brattle) it had a big screen. And of course it used to have Friday's on the corner.

In this photo, the marquee used to be on the left and Friday's entrance on the right.

The old marquee with its individual white light bulbs.

Made perfect sense to me, r400

R404 Why, because the witch has a black & White crystal ball? Couldn't she afford color?

Having Mrs. Gulch still out there at the end of the film is as unsatisfying as Mr. Potter being unpunished at the end of “It’s A Wonderful Life.”

Maybe the writers and producers killed her in their minds but they never put it to paper. So like Jason at the end of the original “Griday the 13th”, she’s still out there.

The crystal ball was in color…

We know how Dorothy got back to Kansas, but how did that house get back from Oz, and intact?

The fact that most of the film was a DREAM seems lost on some DLers.

Can we have a Miss Gulch origin movie? I suspect her father was a butthurt Confederate veteran and her mother was a traumatized Native American. Their drunken fighting and chronic debts drove her away from home at a young age (possibly during a tornado warning) and made her into an "I'll never be hungry again" type miser.

That, or she was the sister of the Agnes Moorehead character in Citizen Kane.

And what happened to the “Kansas” shoes—where the heck were they?

R406 What did you expect to happen to Miss Gulch? She took a dog, and the dog escaped.

Her father - or possibly her mother - was with Quantrill's Raiders.

R410, Ryan Murphy will make it into a series.

Charley Grapewin was also Pa Joad in The Grapes Of Wrath (lower left). He played it with his teeth out.

And in The Good Earth...

Come on, Greg! Don’t leave us hanging. Spill the tea! How long did they date? What was he like? Did he share with her any WOO stories?

I wish I had details, R416.

Yes, R398, the Brattle (located in Harvard Square) is a great old place.

It's where they show TRHPS at midnight every week.

Nice photos, R402/R403

I remember that building being Conran’s Habitat and then a really nice bookstore (I forget the name). I think it’s a Montessori school now.

It’s a great building.

Waterstone’s is the bookstore that was in that building.

One of my favorite sushi places is in Cambridge- The Laughing Monk. Only for the omakase, not for the Thai food.

Or sorry, it's in Wellesley.

Why the fuck are people talking about buildings in Cambridge and Wellesley in a thread about the Wizard of Oz? That’s not just off topic, that’s completely irrelevant.

[quote] As a kid, I was always wanted to know about the Witches of the East and the South. What were they like? Were they good witches, or bad witches?

R391, the Witch of the East was wicked but dead. She’s the one Dorothy’s house dropped on. The ruby slippers were hers. The Wicked Witch of the West refers to her as her sister when she says she wants the slippers.

The Witch of the South? Logic suggests that, if the Witches of the East and West were sisters and both Wicked, and Glinda, the Witch of the North, was Good, then the Witch of South was probably Glinda’s sister and probably Good.

Or, the Witch of the South was Tallulah Bankhead. Take your pick.

[quote]I also like: I am Oz, the great and powerful. Who are you? If you please, I am Dorothy, the small and meek.

That comes directly from the book. Also, in the book, Glinda is the Good Witch of the South. The Good Witch of the North is the first witch Dorothy encounters. The movie combines the two good witches into one.

[quote]Can we have a Miss Gulch origin movie?

In the 1980s, long before Wicked was thought of, Fred Barton did a cabaret act called Miss Gulch Returns. It was about Miss Gulch hanging out in a gay bar.

There was a time when theater was funny and silly and frivolous and entertaining and creative. Then it all went wrong.

The only flaw with The Wizard of Oz is that it doesn’t have a white man playing a crazy Asian man.

We all know there’s a lot about this movie that doesn’t make one bit of damn sense.

Why would Glenda the good witch put Dorothy in so much danger by putting those slippers on her when Dorothy can’t use them for anything? It is stated very clearly up front that the shoes are of no use to Dorothy.

Also, it seemed a little bit silly and pat that after all of that, the wicked witch of the west can be taken down by a simple splash of water to the face? The whole death scene was very anti-climactic.

[quote]Can we have a Miss Gulch origin movie?

It's coming!

[quote] Or, the Witch of the South was Tallulah Bankhead. Take your pick.

R424 Thank you, Darlin', I'll take it!

This is interesting to see. It's surprising that Billie Burke and Flo Ziegfeld have such modest gravesites.

[quote]We all know there’s a lot about this movie that doesn’t make one bit of damn sense. Why would Glenda the good witch put Dorothy in so much danger by putting those slippers on her when Dorothy can’t use them for anything?

It is all the fever dream of a child. It doesn't need to completely make sense.

R428 She must’ve smelled great.

You’re right - today there would be a five-minute scene where Dorothy and the witch go at each other with those big pikes the Winkie guards have. There would be loud, cheesy fight music, and at the end Dorothy would impale the witch against the outer rail of the walkway around her palace, as she stares into the dark abyss below. The witch wold say something cryptic like “I loved you all along, my pretty” before Dorothy lifts her on the pike over her head, and hurls her into the deep valley, screaming “I am woman! Hear me roar!”

I almost forgot - the witch would ooze thick, purple blood out of her eyes and ears, and it would splash in Dorothy’s face.

The film would be rated PG-13.

The Cowardly Lion seemed to spit when he talked. Why didn’t that kill the witch?

Royal Caribbean’s 'Icon of the Seas’ The Wizard of Oz Highlights. This looks absolutely fabulous!

When I was in elementary school, we had to read a biography or autobiography and write a report on it.

I went to the library and checked out “With a Feather on My Nose”—the autobiography of Billie Burke.

I’m sure my teacher was “a little muddled.”

Nope. A canopy bed? A little Oz here, a little Wicked stolen there. Another cheezy effect or two? Nope—full stop.

[quote]The whole death scene was very anti-climactic.

It's directly from the book.

Isn't there an orgy scene in the book with goats?

Anything can happen in rural Kansas.

That’s The Ten Commandments: Moses Goes Commando

[quote]R428: Why would Glenda the good witch put Dorothy in so much danger by putting those slippers on her when Dorothy can’t use them for anything? It is stated very clearly up front that the shoes are of no use to Dorothy.

It's the Wicked Witch of the West that claims they're of no use to Dorothy. Actually, they're of great utility, since they protect her from the Witch, and have the power of teleportation, though Dorothy is unaware of all of that.

Your question about Glinda is an interesting one. It looks a lot like a power play between Glinda and the Wicked Witch. Gregory Maguire takes it even further, and makes the shoes a pivotal piece of a plot either to remove the Wizard, or keep him in power.

Does she still have those slippers on in bed at the end? I forget if that's addressed.

In the film, it's not addressed, R444.

In the book, the request to fly her home to Kansas is nearly beyond the scope of the shoes to carry out. Crossing the Great Desert that separates Oz from the rest of the world, they drop off, and are lost forever.

Dorothy doesn't have the ruby slippers on at the end. She has Converse, ripped skinny jeans and a t shirt on under the covers because she's going to sneak out to a Justin Bieber concert after all those farmhands leave.

DOROTHY No!

MISS GULCH Here's what I'm taking him in -- a yellow Dollar General shopping bag.

DOROTHY Oh, no, no! I won't let you take him! You go away, you old dried up cunt! Oooh, I'll bite your pancake tit off

What exactly were the magic powers of the ruby slippers that made the Witch want them so badly? She wanted the slippers to enable her to dethrone the Wizard ...but how? We only saw them spit out electric power to shock her, and for Dorothy to click her heels three times and go home. Glinda tells Dorothy "Keep tight inside of them...their magic must be very powerful or she wouldn't want them so badly."

The shoes don't really DO anything. Glinda should have given Dorothy an instruction manual. Shouldn't they at least been able to shoot lightning to kill the flying monkeys or something?

R448 They're the MacGuffin.

.....

So is the broomstick ^^

Both are noted upthread…

So is Glinda a witch or a princess? These straight guys nearly come to blows over the debate.

R451 So you should have told that to R448...

I just did…

I thought you ^^ was directed at my posts

(your)

r448, somehow I got the impression that it amplifies powers. Maybe from the book?

There was a pond in Munchkinland.

Did the munchkins not know that they could melt the WWW without breaking a sweat?

Glinda could have been more helpful.

[quote] Did the munchkins not know that they could melt the WWW without breaking a sweat?

They didn't teach killing witches in the Munchkin Unified School District. Very big on music, though.

[quote] Glinda could have been more helpful.

Dreams don't always make sense, though, do they?

[quote]Does she still have those slippers on in bed at the end? I forget if that's addressed.

What part of "it was all a dream" don't you understand?

R418 I had many great experiences at the Brattle. It was the first place I saw All About Eve. I also loved going to Astaire/Rogers movies, and seeing how spellbound the audience was during the dance sequences. But three VERY special memories:

1. Freshman year at Emerson, 1989. I was in love with my straight roommate. Blond and blue surfer dudebro from Southern California, sexy iodine colored tan. I was from New Jersey, and his world seemed so foreign and exotic to me.

He didn't care about old movies, but I convinced him to go see the re-release of Gone with the Wind with me. As intermission drew near, I was panicked that he would want to go home. But, to my surprise, he was BEAMING. "This is great! I can't wait to see the second half!" He loved Rhett, found him so funny. Anyway, we got out of the theater about 1:20am. The Red Line had stopped running, it was lightly snowing, Harvard Square was empty, and a light blanket of snow was covering everything. And it was so quiet. Absolutely beautiful. We walked home, across the bridge over the Charles River, talking about how much we loved the movie and making jokes and laughing. We got home, made hot cocoa, and went to bed. I was trying to stifle the sound of me crying. "Dude, what's wrong?" he asked. "Nothing. It's just that tonight was so perfect." He got up, walked over to my bed, and patted my shoulder. "Yeah, it was John" and he went back to bed. He was basically telling me he knew what was going on with me, and it was ok. Just perfect. For 1988. In New Jersey, you kept that shit quiet.

2. I was a huge Beatles fan, and The Brattle had a double feature of a short Beatles doc by these guys called the Maysels Brothers, along with something I never heard of called Grey Gardens. The Beatles doc was pretty good, about they're arriving in NYC on Feb 7, 1964. But, I'd paid $4.50 for the ticket. I figured I should stay for Grey Gardens because a 25 min. short doc didn't really cut it for that price. About 10 minutes into Grey Gardens I WAS ENTHRALLED. And I wouldvremain so about the Beales to this very day. An unexpectedly wonderful Saturday afternoon.

3. I'd never seen Last Picture Show. Me and my friend Laura were in the first row of the balcony. Cloris Leachman's final scene yelling at Tim Bottoms just wrecked us both. We sat there in total silence for the whole closing credits. As soon as the house lights came up, we looked at each other and said, at the same time "her FACE!" To see the sheer pain and longing in Cloris Leachman's face at the end of LPS, on a big screen, first row balcony, is something I can NEVER forget. A perfect movie memory.

I miss you, Brattle Theater. I HAVE to go back before I die.

Zzzzz. Go. But don’t come back and write about on an Oz thread.

Thank you for sharing those beautiful memories, r461.

I always loved the ruby slippers, especially when they did close-ups. (Yes I know -- Mary!)

I love Dorothy’s gingham dress equally as much as her ruby slippers. I’ll argue that Dorothy’s costume is the #1 most iconic and perfectly designed costume in film history.

So true.

Does anyone know the inspiration for Glenda’s crown? The shape and tallness stand out. I’ve never seen anything like it.

Glinda, not Glenda.

Has anyone watched the 1925 version?

Why do I sometimes see Glinda referred to as Galinda in stuff about WICKED (I've never seen the show)?

R462 You must be a very sad, small person. I feel sorry for you.

R463 Thank you! I've never written about my roommate before. Felt good to get it out, even if it is slightly off topic. : - )

At least that would be something.

R470 I should let somebody who knows Wicked answer this, but I think the author said it was originally her name, then one character called her G'linda. Not sure.

Right back atcha! 🫵🏻

All the characters and the whole movie are so colorful and attention-getting, but it's Judy as Dorothy who holds it all together. Even if it's a dream, it's a "hero's journey" type of plot and not many of those have had a girl at the center. It's too bad her movie career (on a regular basis) only lasted another decade, or so. She was a born movie actress. So sympathetic and lovable, but real, never cloying.

I agree, r475.

That Cavett interview with Bette Davis is the very best interview EVER done with any movie star. I could watch them over and over again, endlessly.

So this was the last time that Glinda's iconic dress was ever seen:

Billie Burke as Glinda in three signed photos 💖 Billie had this portrait taken by MGM photographer Clarence Sinclair Bull on October 30, 1939 (after the film was released). She had the portrait taken for her own personal purposes, not for the film’s publicity, and even included a version of this image on her Christmas card in 1939!

Wow that’s so Edwardian! ;)

^Give it a rest.

[quote]All the characters and the whole movie are so colorful and attention-getting, but it's Judy as Dorothy who holds it all together.

I agree. I think it's safe to say that it wouldn't be the enduring classic it remains today if MGM had been allowed to borrow Shirley Temple from 20th Century Fox.

"The Wizard of Oz" is a 1933 Canadian-American animated short film directed by Ted Eshbaugh. The story is credited to "Col. Frank Baum." Frank Joslyn Baum, a lieutenant colonel in the United States Army and eldest son of writer L. Frank Baum, was involved in the film's production, and may have had an involvement in the film's script, which is loosely inspired by the elder Baum's 1900 novel, "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz." It runs approximately eight and a half minutes and is nearly wordless, working mainly with arrangements of classical music created by Carl W. Stalling. The film is considered to potentially be the first full color animated film. Production[edit] The film was known to be in production during October, 1932. The film was originally made in Technicolor, but because it was made without proper licensing from the Technicolor Corporation (which limited use of its 3-strip process to Disney), it never received a theatrical release in color, but was released in Black & White instead.

Delightful, r482! I never knew about it. Thanks for sharing.

How many sock puppet accounts is Greg using on this thread?

Is he having a back and forth discussion with himself about Harvard Square like he has back and forth discussions with himself on most other threads?

Give it a rest, r484

I’ll rest at bedtime, R485. :)

r482 I remember watching that as a kid. It's interesting how they also depicted Kansas as being in black and white. Though I vaguely recall the book describing Kansas as being grey too.

[quote] He didn't care about old movies, but I convinced him to go see the re-release of Gone with the Wind with me. As intermission drew near, I was panicked that he would want to go home. But, to my surprise, he was BEAMING. "This is great! I can't wait to see the second half!" He loved Rhett, found him so funny. Anyway, we got out of the theater about 1:20am. The Red Line had stopped running, it was lightly snowing, Harvard Square was empty, and a light blanket of snow was covering everything. And it was so quiet. Absolutely beautiful. We walked home, across the bridge over the Charles River, talking about how much we loved the movie and making jokes and laughing. We got home, made hot cocoa, and went to bed. I was trying to stifle the sound of me crying. "Dude, what's wrong?" he asked. "Nothing. It's just that tonight was so perfect." He got up, walked over to my bed, and patted my shoulder. "Yeah, it was John" and he went back to bed. He was basically telling me he knew what was going on with me, and it was ok. Just perfect. For 1988. In New Jersey, you kept that shit quiet.

Oh, for fucking crying out loud, you made up a maudlin fantasy like this off the top of your head, and the rest of us have small lives?

This never happened. I bet in reality he left during intermission and you made the rest up as a defense mechanism to block out the embarrassment and the trauma of it all.

This is how the novel opens r487:

[quote]Dorothy lived in the midst of the great Kansas prairies, with Uncle Henry, who was a farmer, and Aunt Em, who was the farmer’s wife. Their house was small, for the lumber to build it had to be carried by wagon many miles. There were four walls, a floor and a roof, which made one room; and this room contained a rusty looking cookstove, a cupboard for the dishes, a table, three or four chairs, and the beds. Uncle Henry and Aunt Em had a big bed in one corner, and Dorothy a little bed in another corner. There was no garret at all, and no cellar—except a small hole dug in the ground, called a cyclone cellar, where the family could go in case one of those great whirlwinds arose, mighty enough to crush any building in its path. It was reached by a trap door in the middle of the floor, from which a ladder led down into the small, dark hole.

[quote]When Dorothy stood in the doorway and looked around, she could see nothing but the great gray prairie on every side. Not a tree nor a house broke the broad sweep of flat country that reached to the edge of the sky in all directions. The sun had baked the plowed land into a gray mass, with little cracks running through it. Even the grass was not green, for the sun had burned the tops of the long blades until they were the same gray color to be seen everywhere. Once the house had been painted, but the sun blistered the paint and the rains washed it away, and now the house was as dull and gray as everything else.

[quote]R487: I remember watching that as a kid. It's interesting how they also depicted Kansas as being in black and white. Though I vaguely recall the book describing Kansas as being grey too.

As R482 remarks (or re-posts), "The film was known to be in production during October, 1932. The film was originally made in Technicolor, but because it was made without proper licensing from the Technicolor Corporation (which limited use of its 3-strip process to Disney), it never received a theatrical release in color, but was released in Black & White instead."

I understood that to mean it was originally all Technicolor, then all B&W. The form in which it appears in the current Youtube video is likely the innovation of the encoder of this version (someone called 'Thunderbean'), who doubtless made his coloring choices based upon the 1939 film.

r490 there is another copy on YouTube that also has the Kansas sequence in B&W

There's a Russian cartoon as well...

[quote]R491: there is another copy on YouTube that also has the Kansas sequence in B&W

Not only that, but its uploader, RoyalKidofOz, adds a preface to his version of the video stating that "the cartoon was the first dramatic treatment to show Kansas in black-and-white and Oz in color." But we do not know that for a fact, and neither does this uploader. The path from surviving B&W prints to home video formats was a long one, during which the prints were re-colorized (see Wiki article linked below, which states, "This is not an original color print, but has been colored to match the original intent of the filmmakers, which, as in the MGM film that followed, had the film go from black and white to color upon Dorothy's arrival in Oz").

It continues, "Thunderbean Animation restored and remastered the cartoon from its original negatives and released the new colourful print on a DVD and Blu-ray combo pack under the title “Technicolor Dreams and Black & White Nightmares” in 2014." But I would be willing to bet that Thunderbean followed the preferred version depicting Kansas in B&W and Oz in color.

The alternative is to argue that Ted Eshbaugh created the two-tone innovation in 1933, and MGM copied it from him for its 1939 film. Barring explicit evidence to that effect, I don't believe that. I think that, during the home video era of the early 1980s, restorers preferred to follow the MGM version, and that ultimately led to how it looks now.

[quote]The film as it is abruptly cuts from the handing over of the broom in the Witch's Castle to the long slow walk to the Wizards' throne.

Incorrect. The "long, slow walk to the Wizard's throne" is earlier in the movie. After the broom is handed over, the film cuts immediately to Dorothy and her friends already standing in the throne room. I do lament the cutting of the "restoration sequence," because the movie could have used another brief musical number right there, and yes, it would have been a wonderful bookend to "Ding Dong, the With is Dead" in the Munchkinland sequence.

But for those of you who hate "If I Were King of the Forest" because you think it "stops the movie dead in its tracks," I pity you for having no ability to appreciate Burt Lahr's brilliant comedic performance in that number.

[quote] The path from surviving B&W prints to home video formats was a long one, during which the prints were re-colorized (see Wiki article linked below, which states, "This is not an original color print, but has been colored to match the original intent of the filmmakers, which, as in the MGM film that followed, had the film go from black and white to color upon Dorothy's arrival in Oz").

R493 The full quote: The first known commercial release was in Canada in 1985, on Betamax, VHS and Laserdisc, through the efforts of Fred M. Meyer, longtime Secretary of The International Wizard of Oz Club. This is not an original color print, but has been colored to match the original intent of the filmmakers, which, as in the MGM film that followed, had the film go from black and white to color upon Dorothy's arrival in Oz.

"This" refers to that original release, not the current restoration.

Thunderbean Animation restored and remastered the cartoon from its original negatives and released the new colourful print on a DVD and Blu-ray combo pack under the title “Technicolor Dreams and Black & White Nightmares” in 2014.

If the print has been restored from its original negatives, then the Thunderbean version is the way the film was originally presented. It's no longer the colorized print of the original release. If they found the negative, then that is the actual original version. And the black and white sequence is authentic to that.

Besides, if they were trying to copy the 1939 film, they would have had the opening credits in b&w, not color.

[quote]R495: If they found the negative, then that is the actual original version.

There's no footnote sourcing the statement that the original Technicolor negative was found and used. Actually, nearly the entire section on 'Home Video' is unsourced.

[quote]Besides, if they were trying to copy the 1939 film, they would have had the opening credits in b&w, not color.

This still amounts to the idea that Ted Eshbaugh invented the B&W/Color approach to the narrative, and that MGM copied him.

According to The Oxford Handbook of Children's Film, Ted Eshbaugh's version presented the Kansas sequence in B&W.

That image of the house up in the twister could have been a storyboard for MGM…quite similar.

I don't know if the negatives the cartoon was restored from are the "originals" or dupes, but if cartoon was originally made in Technicolor, there would be no original "color" negative as we think of them currently (or let's say recently, since film as a production medium is now mostly dead).

By the early 30's Technicolor used a beam splitting camera and 3 B&W negatives to record the image via red blue and green light sumultaneously. Those negatives were used to produce corresponding dye print matrices - a Technicolor release print wasn't developed, it was printed with dye, which is why the color is so saturated and beautiful -- and the process was so expensive.

Since we at the DL don't have access to whatever negative they used for the restoration, the only other way to truly know if the original cartoon was made with the B&W to color switch would be to find original cel artwork, which probably no longer exists

But judging by the YouTube version posted above, the color doesn't look colorized onto a surviving B&W only print (or later B&W negative) -- the look seems very Technicolor and period specific. And the short B&W Kansas sequence is not true black and white - there are green-ish and then sepia tones, and the storm makes everything blue for a moment. This suggests artwork that was painted in varieties of monochrome and photographed with a color process for narrative purposes, rather than an effect that was added many years later in restoration.

I suspect cartoon alway had a monochrome to color gag built in -- the book has always described Kansas as drab and grey versus the colorful world of OZ, and that visual trope would be much easier to achieve in a early color cartoon than a live action film.

WIKIPEDIA: "Definitive Technicolor movies using three black and white films running through a special camera (3-strip Technicolor or Process 4) started in the early 1930s and continued through to the mid-1950s when the 3-strip camera was replaced by a standard camera loaded with single strip "monopack" color negative film. Technicolor Laboratories were still able to produce Technicolor prints by creating three black and white matrices from the Eastmancolor negative (Process 5)."

I love DL.

Oh, r494: I appreciate it, even though it does stop the film cold. It's kind of a miracle the bizarre number I posted from LOVE AND HISSES was even filmed it's so loopy. It was cut.

Sorry I got the sequence misplaced - but there is an abrupt cut. It's very jarring.

The color of the 1933 cartoon is pretty psychedelic with the vivid cerise and hot pinks and acid greens. Does anyone know iff Natalie Kalmus and her Technicolor 'color consultants' oversaw cartoons the way they did live-action films?

Very over-rated in my opinion. Saw it as a child. Didn't have a desire to see it again and rewatched as an adult. Stil meh.

R503: worse than Hitler.

I've always thought that one of the best things about THE WIZARD OF OZ is the main title sequence -- the great music and magnificent orchestrations, with the wordless female chorus in the background, the simplicity of the credits in that beautiful typeface against the clouds. And by the way, I had already seen the film about a thousand times before I read somewhere that the very first music we hear in the film, as the MGM lion roars, is actually a majestic, full-orchestra version of the lovely little theme we hear to accompany Glinda's two bubble entrances in the film.

R503 is a friendless idiot.

[quote] But for those of you who hate "If I Were King of the Forest" because you think it "stops the movie dead in its tracks," I pity you for having no ability to appreciate Burt Lahr's brilliant comedic performance in that number.

I can appreciate his performance without thinking the sequence was needed in the movie!

His son says different.

No, "If I Were King of the Forest" wasn't "needed" in the movie, but it's a delightful number that helps us further invest emotionally in the character of the Lion. His version of "If I Only Had....." is shorter than the Scarecrow's version or the Tin Man's version. The Tin Man's dance wasn't "needed" either, but there should be room in any musical film for some numbers that don't add to the plot and are just enjoyable for their own sake.

I love the bit where Dorothy, Tinman and Scarecrow “crown” him and provide him with a robe. It’s adorable. I find the song cute, but it does seem just a little bit like filler in an otherwise extremely tight film. I think I’d have preferred if the song had featured a verse from each of the main characters reflecting on their hopes upon meeting the wizard. It just feels like a bit of an outlier for me. But that’s just me putting on my critic hat. I adore every second of the film.

Have any of you watched the Scarecrow's big solo dance number (not, I believe The Jitterbug) that was cut from the film? Now, that was truly filler and unnecessary.

Interesting to see how Dorothy in the 1933 cartoon looked to be all made up with false eyelashes and lipstick but wore the too-short pinafore that exposed her frilly panties and bare legs. I guess that sort of sexually infantilized image was rampant in cartoons of the era.

Dorothy, meet Betty.

r512 That's also what dolls looked like.

[quote]Very over-rated in my opinion. Saw it as a child. Didn't have a desire to see it again and rewatched as an adult. Stil meh.

Because it was the preceding post, I can only assume that you're talking about the 1933 cartoon.

[quote]Very over-rated in my opinion. Saw it as a child. Didn't have a desire to see it again and rewatched as an adult. Still meh.

Sad that you continue to be so meh as an adult.

R488 yeah that story is generic and wimpy fiction

I like to reenact the lion’s king of the forest when in public crowds. You should see all of the looks and laughs I get from strangers. I love it

[quote]R172: I love the little jokes in the Munchkin lyrics. “From now on you’ll be history, 𝐲𝐨𝐮’𝐥𝐥 𝐛𝐞 𝐡𝐢𝐬𝐬𝐞𝐝, 𝐲𝐨𝐮’𝐥𝐥 𝐛𝐞 𝐡𝐢𝐬𝐬𝐞𝐝, you’ll be history. And we will glorify your name. You will be a bust, be a bust, be a bust - in the hall of fame!”

That's funny! But I have to say, I had never up to this point heard it that way, nor is it reflected in any version of English script or subtitles. Where did you get it? Is it your own understanding of the lines?

I actually prefer it, and will update my own version of the film's subtitles to reflect it. :D

▲ Hmm. The only reference I can find to it is a post on Bluesky social by someone called 'Kip Williams sort of.'

But I do think it's the better reading.

My favorite lyrics:

We get up at twelve and start to work at one.

Take an hour for lunch and then at two we're done.

That’s a plain stu-pid te-write of his-tory.

R519, the "You will be a bust" lines are rendered above exactly as they're sung in the film, and there's no other way to hear them. Whether "You'll be hissed" should be interpreted that way, or as "hist," is a matter of opinion, but I do like that way of hearing it.

One of the things that floors me about the genius of so many people who created THE WIZARD OF OZ is that it's evident from the very first thing we hear, the music that begins the main title. It wasn't until about 10 years ago, after I'd seen the film about a thousand times, that I realized that opening theme is a drastic re-orchestration and rearrangement of the theme we hear both times when Glinda arrives in her bubble (and also as she departs the first time). The thing is, when we hear the melody at Glinda's entrances, it's very light and airy and fairy-like, but when it's used at the start of the main title, it's harmonized, orchestrated, and arranged in such a way that it sounds majestic and also more than a little frightening.

Incredible that someone had the brilliant idea to take that lovely, light little theme and transform it into thrilling music that's absolutely perfect for the beginning of the main title under the roaring MGM lion. I wonder if was Herbert Stothart, George Stoll, or someone else who had the idea? Whoever did, it's absolute genius in my boo.

r524 also Miss Gulch's theme is an altered version of "We're off to see the wizard".

[quote]R523: the "You will be a bust" lines are rendered above exactly as they're sung in the film, and there's no other way to hear them. Whether "You'll be hissed" should be interpreted that way, or as "hist," is a matter of opinion, but I do like that way of hearing it.

Actually, there is another way of hearing "be a bust." The way I'd always understood the song lyric was as a sculpture of the head, neck, and chest. But the other way is one commonly used in the slang or vernacular of that time (1930s/40s), a 'bust' as a complete flop or failure, a sense which agrees perfectly with ' you'll be hissed.' So the lines would read thus:

"𝐅𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐧𝐨𝐰 𝐨𝐧, 𝐲𝐨𝐮'𝐥𝐥 𝐛𝐞 𝐇𝐢𝐬𝐭𝐨𝐫𝐲!

𝐘𝐨𝐮'𝐥𝐥 𝐛𝐞 𝐡𝐢𝐬𝐬𝐞𝐝 (made infamous)

𝐘𝐨𝐮'𝐥𝐥 𝐛𝐞 𝐡𝐢𝐬𝐬𝐞𝐝 (made infamous)

𝐘𝐨𝐮'𝐥𝐥 𝐛𝐞 𝐇𝐢𝐬𝐭𝐨𝐫𝐲! (a thing of the past)

𝐀𝐧𝐝 𝐰𝐞 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐠𝐥𝐨𝐫𝐢𝐟𝐲 𝐲𝐨𝐮𝐫 𝐧𝐚𝐦𝐞.

𝐘𝐨𝐮 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐛𝐞 𝐚 𝐛𝐮𝐬𝐭 (a sculpture)

𝐁𝐞 𝐚 𝐛𝐮𝐬𝐭 (a failure)

𝐁𝐞 𝐚 𝐛𝐮𝐬𝐭 (a failure)

𝐈𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐇𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐎𝐟 𝐅𝐚𝐦𝐞!"

The genius of the lines is that they can be understood to complement 𝑎𝑛𝑑/𝑜𝑟 denigrate at the same time. It's what R172 meant by "little jokes in the Munchkin lyrics."

[quote]𝐛𝐮𝐬𝐭 (3 of 4) noun: a complete failure : 𝐟𝐥𝐨𝐩

R524. You’re either repeating yourself or you’re too late R505

The official logo for the Louvre museum seems copied from the Oz opening credits.

R526 I already mentioned that.

R172

[quote]Also Miss Gulch's theme is an altered version of "We're off to see the wizard".

Yes, the Gulch theme is said to be an inversion of the "We're off to see the wizard" theme -- in the Gulch theme, the notes go down where they go up in the other one, and vice-versa. Particularly impressive in this case, because Harold Arlen wrote the music for "We're off to see the wizard" but Herbert Stothart wrote the background score for the film, including Gulch's theme. Another example of genius.

R526, of course, you're right. What I meant was that you have to hear "hissed" instead of "hist" for that one joke to land, whereas "bust" is one word with two very different meanings. Actually three, and the way Judy Garland responds to the Munchkins singing "Be a bust! Be a bust! Be a bust!," it almost looks like she thinks they're referring to her breasts!

I will admit that I never got the "hissed" joke until someone explained it here -- yet ANOTHER example of how much wit and brilliance there is in this movie

Incredible that someone had the brilliant idea to take that lovely, light little theme and transform it into thrilling music that's absolutely perfect for the beginning of the main title under the roaring MGM lion. I wonder if was Herbert Stothart, George Stoll, or someone else who had the idea? Whoever did, it's absolute genius in my boo.

R524 Just curious why you assume the "lovely, light little theme" was transformed for the main title? We have no idea which was written first. (Or, maybe you do. But I don't).

I also notice just before the women's voices under the title, the orchestra briefly quotes "Ding Dong! The Witch is Dead".

[quote]R529: I already mentioned that. R172

I know. I had already addressed you directly at R519/R520 (you didn't respond), and in the R526 post I cited your R172 post. Do you not ever read your notifications (the bell symbol on the upper right hand of your screen)?

Are you okay?

[quote]Just curious why you assume the "lovely, light little theme" was transformed for the main title? We have no idea which was written first. (Or, maybe you do. But I don't).

Well, because I believe it was normal practice for the main title music -- which basically used to function as the "overture" of a film -- to be written after the bulk of the score had been composed. So I expect that theme was written first as Glinda's entrance (and exit) music, and then later transformed for use in the main title. But even if the reverse did happen in this case, what's amazing is that the theme sounds so completely different in those two contexts because of the very different ways in which it's harmonized, arranged, and orchestrated.

In the upcoming Wicked film, Dorothy wears silver shoes. Aren't they supposed to be ruby slippers?

No, R535. In the book they are silver shoes. I believe they switched to ruby slippers because they showed up better on film.

R535 also the case in The Wiz. But I'd heard they paid MGM for the rights to the Rubys for Wicked.

The things that some of your bitches argue about ...

Doesn't something like the "ruby slippers" eventually become public domain after so many years? Actually, I've always understood that clothing and costumes cannot be copyrighted. For example, a copy of the MM "Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend" pink gown could be duplicated onstage or in a film without having to pay or even give credit to the original designer or 20th Century Fox.

Why the slippers are silver in the WICKED film:

Id heard MGM git paid for some elements, but I guess the ruby slippers are not among them.

This reminds me of when Applause paid ONLY for the rights to the short story The Wisdom of Eve, NOT the movie All About Eve. So things unique to the movie, like the fasten your seatbelts line, could not be used in the Broadway musical.

Then at the past minute, the production decided to pay Warners, so Charles Strauss penned a fasten your seatbelts number which was inserted during previews. However, when you see Aoplause it's still clear they were making it very different from the movie All About Eve.

Back in 1970 when APPLAUSE was written, Broadway creators were not slavish about recreating their source material onstage. APPLAUSE, like many shows back then based on classic films, intentionally chose NOT to use the film title, as well as other aspects of the film (for example, they didn't set it in 1950). They were creating a new product. A very different aesthetic from today.

By the way, whether you love or don't love "If I Were King of the Forest," it's interesting to know that the number was originally a bit longer -- both a middle section and a tag were cut, but here is an audio recording of the complete version as it was recorded for the soundtrack before the cuts.

[quote]In the book they are silver shoes. I believe they switched to ruby slippers because they showed up better on film.

Silver would have shown up fine. MGM changed the slippers from silver to ruby because "The Wizard of Oz" had the distinction of being a TECHNICOLOR production in 1939 and they wanted to make the most of it.

[quote]In the book they are silver shoes. I believe they switched to ruby slippers because they showed up better on film.

Not quite, it was because they wanted to exploit the Technicolor process to the fullest extent, and obviously, ruby red slippers are a lot more colorful than silver ones. One of the most spectacular images in THE WIZARD OF OZ is when Dorothy begins her walk down the yellow brick road from the square in Munchkinland. That shot of the ruby red slippers and white socks against the bright yellow brick road, with the lower portion of Dorothy's blue gingham dress also visible, is eye-popping.

I would rather have ruby slippers than silver shoes.

[quote]Back in 1970 when APPLAUSE was written, Broadway creators were not slavish about recreating their source material onstage. APPLAUSE, like many shows back then based on classic films, intentionally chose NOT to use the film title, as well as other aspects of the film (for example, they didn't set it in 1950). They were creating a new product. A very different aesthetic from today.

Yes, but it is ALSO true -- as someone pointed out above -- that when work on the script and score of APPLAUSE began, the production didn't have the rights to the ALL ABOUT EVE screenplay, only to the original story by Mary Orr, so they couldn't use any characters or ideas that were original to the film. And by the time the rights to the screenplay were bought, the writing of the musical had proceeded so far that few changes were made at that point.

Once again, Dorothy's socks are not white. They're blue. But I agree that red is a lot more photogenic in Technicolor than silver. Hardly brain surgery.

And rubies are jewels. Silver is merely a metal.

R548, I'm sorry for misremembering the color of Dorothy's socks. But of course, my point remains about all of those vivid primary colors -- red, blue, and yellow -- appearing in that shot of Dorothy taking her first steps down the yellow brick road.

The slippers were originally silver as the whole thing was a political allegory about the gold standard, the silver speech of WJ Bryan, and Greenbacks!

[quote]Id heard MGM git paid for some elements, but I guess the ruby slippers are not among them.

The ruby slippers appear in the Wicked movie. The original ruby slippers worn by Judy Garland were taken off display at the Academy Museum. Hmmm.

[quote]The original ruby slippers worn by Judy Garland were taken off display at the Academy Museum.

Maybe Liza wanted them back.

Here the source material…

I wish my slippers had a 3 inch heel.

[R547] You are correct. Any characters created in Joe Mankiewicz's screenplay couldn't be used in "Applause", so we lost Addison DeWitt, Miss Caswell, Max Fabian and Birdie. The producer Mr. Benedict took on Addison's role of confronting and blackmailing Eve by threatening to reveal her real background. Birdie became Duane, Margo's gay dresser, which was daring for the 70's still. Margo, Karen, Eve and Bill kept their names from Mary Orr's play but Lloyd Richards was renamed "Buzz" for some reason. To be current I guess? Anyone know?

I think Mary Orr wrote a short story, not a play.

R556 She adapted it into a play after the success of All About Eve.

This thread inspired me to reread the original novel.

Thanks, DL!

I once heard Susan Sarandon do a reading of the short story The Wisdom of Eve on NPR. It was an interesting listen. But one case where the adaptation is superior to the source material.

R557 So was Applause was based on her play, or her short story?

R557 *...So was Applause based on her play, or her short story?

R561 Six of one, half a dozen of the other. The producers bought the stage rights to the short story. I'm sure her play version was quite similar.

[quote]For example, a copy of the MM "Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend" pink gown could be duplicated onstage

If Mary Orr wrote a play based on her short story, I've never heard of it. I don't think it went anywhere. She was British and married to British director/writer Reginald Denham, who was first married to actress Moyna Macgill, actress and mother of Angela Lansbury, who came along a year after their divorce.

Orr and Denham spent much of their later marriage and careers working together on Broadway and in early NY television. She was a friend of the actress Elisabeth Bergner, supposedly her inspiration for Margo Channing.

R564

But has it ever been produced in the legitimate theatre, r565?

R566 I don't believe so. It seems like the kind of thing high schools or community theaters might do.

I know you girls probably think The Mandela Effect is bs, but I’ll have you all know that Glinda now tells Dorothy to “tap” her heels three times and if linear time is to be believed, always did. It was never “click.” Check your old vhs tapes and she’ll say tap.

[quote]Glinda now tells Dorothy to “tap” her heels

Written back when Shirley Temple was a contender. Glinda would tell her to tap and Shirley would do a five minute routine accompanied by two Munchkins.

R568, I only recently learned this -- I always thought it was "click" -- and it also occurred to me as a perfect example of the Mandela Effect.

When we talk about heels, we often talk about them clicking down the hall. That is the reason everyone thinks Glinda said "click your heels 3 times."

Ih and Lena DOES say it in The Wiz.

I never thought she said click.

I thought she said slam.

R573 silly

R571, there's that, but the main reason is that heel clicking - exactly what Dorothy did in TWOO - is a thing. It's something soldiers in some countries (Germany?) used to do when they saluted as an addition sign of respect. This would have been even more familiar in 1939 than it is today, so it's no surprise that people mixed up the real-life expression for what Glinda actually said.

It's also a sort of dance move to leap in the air and click your heels together like a leprechaun.

Good points, R575. It seems that "click your heels together" is a far more common expression than "tap your heels together."

Oh my god who cares?

Wow, I have to say I'm impressed. The Billie Burke hair debate reached levels of hysteria not seen since the Melinda Dillon Christma Story perm saga that tore through the DL for the majority of the first decade of this century...

These Valentines cards were a promotional tie-in for the 1939 film 🌈💕

The second one is the gayest Valentine’s card EVER.

Do you still hear them, Clarice?

[quote] It's based on Grimm's fairy tales?

Yes, Rose. On "Rumpelstiltskin" and "The Frog King, or Iron Heinrich."

[quote] The original ruby slippers worn by Judy Garland were taken off display at the Academy Museum.

There were actually multiple copies of the ruby slipper made for the movie. There's no single pair that's original.

One pair is now in the Smithsonian; one pair is at the AMPAS Museum; one pair (which was stolen for several years) is at the Judy Garland Museum in Grand Rapids, Minnesota.

At least two (including the pair unused for the film with curled toes that used to be owned by Debbie Reynolds) are currently in private hands.

Is" Return to Oz" worth watching?

Did anyone here see "The Boy from Oz".?

And what about the HBO series "Oz"? Was that some sort of sequel?

In the novel, she knocks and claps her heels together:

[quote]"The Silver Shoes,” said the Good Witch, “have wonderful powers. And one of the most curious things about them is that they can carry you to any place in the world in three steps, and each step will be made in the wink of an eye. All you have to do is to knock the heels together three times and command the shoes to carry you wherever you wish to go.”

[quote]Dorothy now took Toto up solemnly in her arms, and having said one last good-bye she clapped the heels of her shoes together three times.

r584 no.

"Return to Oz" is dark and dreary, without an ounce of the joy that makes the 1939 movie the unforgettable classic it is.

Return to Oz is fine if you like 80’s fantasy. It is very much its own thing (and actually far closer to the tone of the books), and has to be seen as such.

I quite like it for its own merits but it’s nothing compared to the 1939 film. They do too much location filming which looks surprisingly dreary; some imaginative sets would have worked much better for a fantasy feel. There are some moments of real magic, such as the flying Gump. Jean Marsh is terrific and genuinely nightmarish as the villain (“Dorothy Gaaaaaaaaaaaale!!!”). Mombi’s castle is dazzlingly spectacular, but as have some noted it’s not very good visually and often has a very drab feel, at stark odds with the glorious technicolour of the original.

It’s worth a watch. Some consider it a minor classic in its own right…just try not to compare the two or you will be disappointed (and perplexed that Dorothy seems to have gotten ten years younger despite being set after the first film).

A friend of mine adores RETURN TO OZ, and insisted that I watch it. I liked it well enough on its own terms, but I can't imagine why anyone would even think to compare it to the 1939 film, as the style and intentions of both are so very, very, very different. If anything, as someone mentioned above, RETURN TO OZ should be evaluated as something inspired by the original Baum books, not the MGM movie.

I like that “Return to OZ” is so heavily based upon “Ozma of OZ” as that’s one of my favorite books in the series. It’s a really good tale.

“Return” should have had a different title as it’s not really a sequel as Oz is very real in it and determined to be just a dream in the 1939 film.

My copy of The Wonderful Wizard of OZ arrived today! It's a facsimile of the first edition, which is charming in its own way.

Here's the digital facsimile on Google Books:

If you know anyone who's never seen the movie, it would be funny to show them this, then afterwards rave over the timeless story and unforgettable musical numbers. Squeezing out a few nostalgic tears would really sell it.

R594 when was that made? It’s pretty awful looking.

My sister woke me up the night JG died. I was maybe 4 years old. She did it because we had watched Wizard that year and I was obsessed. So grateful she did that. Love remembering what my life was like while Stonewall was unfolding.

Fairuza Balk was quite talented—she had to carry that movie.

R597 she did a good job, and she really did carry the movie. It didn’t help that her costars weren’t actual people; we had a walking tin can, a stick man with a pumpkin head and a sarcastic chicken.

Miss Gulch tried to kill Toto. She was gonna have him destroyed! Toto jumped out of her bicycle basket and ran back home. Miss Gulch… What a bitch!

Judy Garland performing “Over the Rainbow” in March of 1944, four years after the release of “The Wizard of Oz” 🌈 Judy is only 21 years old here, but you can hear how mature her voice had become. This particular performance was transmitted via radio exclusively to troops overseas as part of the program Command Performance.