Don Murray is DEAD TO ME!

Poor Don got the tawdry "Dead to me!" treatment. Sorry, Don.

*

His son, Bill, must be devastated!

Sad!

Bus stop was an interesting movie. He always he nice (and controversial) things to say about Marilyn, the greatest Hollywood diva of all divas!

I remember him from 'Knots Landing', where he appeared the first few seasons as level-headed 'Sid Fairgate', wife of Karen (Michelle Lee) and older brother of Abby Fairgate Cunningham (Donna Mills). In season 2 (1980-81), he also had a small role in the movie 'Endless Love' playing Brooke Shields' father.

With the popularity of that film, he went to CBS and demanded more money before the 1981-82 season started....'or else'. CBS laughed at him, and chose the 'or else', killing his character off in the middle of season 3. He told reporters he was happy to be leaving the series and 'returning to his movie career', now that he was rediscovered as a film actor by a younger audience . Years later, when the show was wrapping up after 14 years, a reporter did an interview with him. He told the reporter that his decision to leave the show in 1981-82 was the biggest regret of his life - the worst decision he ever made.

Don was in the first gay bar scene ever shown in a mainstream American film.

As a kid, I was traumatized by the death of Sid Fairgate.

Awww I liked him. He was married to Hope Lange. Wasn’t she going to leave him for Glenn Ford?

Wow he had a long legged long life. Rip good man.

I wanted to hate fuck the sexy MFer before I even knew the meaning of the word in ‘Conquest of the Planet of the Apes’ as a little boy, so all I could muster was wanting to see him stripped bare and see his bum bum paddled red by a bunch of angry gorillas 🦍.

Don Murray was "The Hoodlum Priest."

I saw Don and ex wife Hope in Same Time, Next Year on Broadway. This was 1977ish and he was so fucking handsome and sexy. RIP

He was good in ENDLESS LOVE. Pretty much everyone was, except for Brooke.

He's funny talking about Otto Preminger in the documentary on the director.

Good looking - did some of his best work in the late 50s - BUS STOP, THE BACHELOR PARTY and A HATFUL OF RAIN. ADVISE AND CONSENT was 1962. Good actor.

Sid!!!!

I liked him in [italic]Baby, the Rain Must Fall[/italic]. You'll see the difference there between movie stars (Steve McQueen) and good actors (Murray & Lee Remick). I know they needed a star for the movie, but Murray and Remick were so much better than McQueen it hurt a bit to watch McQueen.

Advise and Consent is surprisingly sympathetic for the era, despite the Kill Your Gays aspect. The scene at r6 is a classic, as is the encounter with the fluttery, obese cat hoarder. Gay terror, indeed!

Don Murray was great. Very handsome in his youth, but even more so as he hit middle age. He looked very sexy in the Apes sequel at r10.

And I loved him as Sid on Knots!

RIP.

Baby the Rain Must Fall

RIP

A Hatful of Rain

A Hatful of Rain is a 1957 American drama film about a young married man with a secret morphine addiction, based on a 1955 Broadway play of the same name. It is a medically and sociologically accurate account of the effects of morphine on an addict and his family.[4] The frank depiction of drug addiction in a feature film was a rarity for its time.

Before sending her condolences, Susan Dey is wondering if Mr. Murray appeared on her television programs, LA Law or The Partridge Family?

I loved him as Sid Fairgate and was shocked when they killed off the character.

Talking with Leta Powell Drake.

Isn’t his son Chris gay? I have a vague memory that was known as such in NYC in the 90s.

Christopher Murray

R1, I don’t really find the DL Dead to Me objectionable or tawdry. It is just one of DL’s silly conventions and traditions and the continuity is kind of fun and comforting.

He was hot when he was young. Great actor, too

R1 seriously, Mary, the horse is dead. Get over it.

[quote]and fled a gay bar as a closeted senator

Complete fiction!!!!

I saw him and Hope Lange in "Same Time Next Year" and I remember nothing about it.

This one really hurts. I loved Don as Sid Fairgate on Knots Landing.

Very hot in his prime.

His son is very handsome.

Miss Michele Lee has commented

Michele Lee interview when Don left KL

[quote]I saw him and Hope Lange in "Same Time Next Year" and I remember nothing about it.

You're lucky. I saw it with Gary Collins and Sue Ane Langdon.

Conrad Janis and Joyce Van Patten did the tour...

God Damn, Michele Lee is the kiss of death. First RL husband James Farentino, then TV husband Kevin Dobson, and now first TV husband Don Murray.

My young loins ached for him back in the day.

So Young.

In the film version of A Hatful Of Rain, two of the Broadway main cast were retained (Anthony Franciosa, Lloyd Nolan), the other two (Ben Gazzara, Shelley Winters) were replaced by Don Murray and Eva Marie Saint. Murray was good but it's easier to see Franciosa and Gazzara as the Italian brothers of the original play.

I can’t believe that there are 41 posts here about Don Murray and not one word about the fact that he had a big cock. Was known for it.

Maybe because we never heard that.

Very handsome talented actor, I didn't know about all the good deeds he did going all the way back to his youth in the army as a conscientious objector working in the immigrant and orphan camps. RIP

Michele Lee and Claudia Lonow have commented

R35 great story

They spelled "grief" wrong

Twice

R10 and R18- I watched this movie as a gayling in the late 1970's on the 4:30 movie when they had Planet Of The Apes week.

I also fantasized about the Gorillas forcing him to strip COMPLETELY NAKED.

For those of us who are interested in such things, Murray has a scene early on in BUS STOP where he's doing sit-ups in his underwear, and the bulge in his underwear is very, very obvious. Director Josh Logan sure was a perv who loved hot young guys, God love him!

In the trailer as he's doing sit-ups the narrator of the trailer says he's doing push-ups.

I watched an interview with Amy Greene (wife of Marilyn's business partner, photographer Milton Greene) where she said they really wanted Rock Hudson for the lead in Bus Stop.

Don: 2024

Marilyn: 1962

It’s better to lasso than be lassoed

Hung!

Thanks, R49. How weird. But all of the narration in that trailer is laughable.

[quote] Advise and Consent is surprisingly sympathetic for the era

Thank the novel's author Allen Drury for that. Good liberals of the era hated him because he was too conservative for them, or perhaps insufficiently homophobic for the virile New Frontier.

Don and Hope @18:20

Murray’s son Christopher is an epic nepo baby. Been acting since the 70s, always in bit parts, riding on Murray’s and Lance’s coat tails.

^^^ Lange’s

I've been here for 24 years. The "dead to me" thing is a relatively recent development. It's stupid and sounds like something a frau would say.

The "dead to me" thing goes back at least a couple years. Why are people just complaining about it now?

Never heard of him, but he looks like he was a hot daddy back in the day.

To me he was blandly good looking and a competent actor but never a standout in his shows.

Don Murray had a big beautiful intact cock.

He was more believable as a man of the cloth than as a drug addict in the dreary Hatful of Rain (1957)

TIL gaylings across the globe felt their sexuality piqued by the promise of a middle-aged Don Murray entering into a sexual subjugation scene with a squad of militant talking gorillas.

DL continues to serve as a valuable historical repository of homosexual awakenings.

He was packed into that costume at R39 to a fair the well.

Years ago there was a photo a him online that showed him with a humongous bulge. I think he was wearing a swimsuit or tight shorts. It was a bulge that was on the verge of being obscene. But I see now it has been wiped from the internet.

Completely off topic, but noteworthy. As I was looking from the old Murray bulge photo a ran across this show of Chris Hemsworth from one of his workout routines. Thor's hammer never looked so great.

[quote]who fled a gay bar as a closeted senator

He was not a closeted senator, he just had a wide inciting stance.

Loved Don on Knots Landing (and the early years in general), but truth be told the character of Sid Fairgate was an astonishing bore. He pretty much weighed the show down and once they killed him off and the show became more serialized, it took off in the ratings. Quitting Knots may have been the worse professional decision he ever made, but it worked out well for the show.

So , this makes three, right?

[quote] The "dead to me" thing goes back at least a couple years. Why are people just complaining about it now?

There's one incredibly agitated prisspot who takes offense. Most of us recognize it as a DL thing.

Great looking man and a fine actor. From the photo of him in the NYT, it looks like he had a nice butt, too.

R71 I’m not one who takes offense at it, but sometimes I wonder why things that weren’t clever or funny in the first place just seem to go on and on.

Daddy plays rough.

R69 - how did Don Knotts get into the conversation?

R64 - whoever thought up that scene has a serious Mandingo fetish.

R75, it’s a callback to all that hot Don Murray/Don Knotts slash fiction from the nineties.

Nifty Erotic Stories even gave it its own category at one point.

Rock Hudson could never have pulled off the role of Beau (Bo?) in Bus Stop in 1956. Don Murray brought a sweet naivete to that part, believing in the innocence of Cherie, the MM part, that was very special and endearing.

[quote] t's stupid and sounds like something a frau would say.

I don't have a problem with it but please, it absolutely doesn't sound like something a frau would say. It's provocative and flip, the kind of performative disrespect that makes fraus clutch their pearls and recoil in disgust, like you.

He played Frank Gumm, Judy's dad, in Rainbow, directed by Jackie Cooper. With Andrea McArdle as Garland and Piper Laurie as Ethel.

[quote]things that weren’t clever or funny in the first place

To *you*, r73

I know nothing about Knot's Landing but that seems like a dumb move on his part. In his early career he was sort of on the verge of stardom and never made it. He should have continued with the TV series, at least it was a solid income and he would have become more of a household name or at least face, which he never really was.

R81 Of course, to me, who else can I speak for?

In The Rose Tattoo with Maureen Stapleton. Damn, you guys piqued my interest.

[quote]I wonder why things that weren’t clever or funny in the first place just seem to go on and on.

Sounds like you're making a statement of fact, r83.

I will never forget this scene. It was rare for a major character on a series to die.

R85 Do you expect everyone on here to preface everything they say with, "in my humble opinion"?

R14 That's interesting but could you tell us what he said or direct us to it in some way?

[quote]I wonder why things that weren’t clever or funny in the first place just seem to go on and on.

Fine, r87, the answer is...more DLers found it funny in the first place and continue to find it so. Now you can stop wondering.

He was always in t he second tier of A-listers and was probably at his best as part of an ensemble rather than carrying a picture. He didn't project the kind of energy to carry a picture himself and his best known work was wither playing off an established star (Marilyn Monroe) or in an ensemble (Advise and Consent).

R89 Oh, no! You mean I'm not one of the popular kids? I'll try to conform more to what everyone else thinks, in the future. Thank you.

You can do whatever you want, r91. You posted "I wonder why" and I simply told you why.

R92 Yes, I posted that I wondered why things that weren’t clever or funny in the first place just seem to go on and on.

I also wonder why you just seem to go on and on.

Now, good bye. I leave you.

[quote]Now, good bye. I leave you.

And take your superior attitude with you, r93.

Don Murray/Otis Young sandwich longings.

👀

Nice write-up and photos at link.

Cute butt.

[quote]I’m not one who takes offense at it, but sometimes I wonder why things that weren’t clever or funny in the first place just seem to go on and on.

Here's my explanation: I think many people here would agree that "____ is dead to me" wasn't especially clever or funny in the first place, but people started to repeat it as sort of a bad joke, and then that snowballed.

The article at R97 doesn't even speculate on why "he went from acclaim to obscurity in the blink of an eye".

Advise and Consent could use a remake.

[quote] I know nothing about Knot's Landing

Clearly you don't, or you'd know it was Knots Landing, not Knot's Landing.

Lean, tightly muscled, hairy chested men with thin lips have always been a particular fetish of mine.

R102 Well, at least you got in your petty little public correction of someone for the day.

[Quote] I’m not one who takes offense at it, but sometimes I wonder why things that weren’t clever or funny in the first place just seem to go on and on.

like Billy Crystal, Kevin Hart . . .no need to take offense humor is subjective

The younger photos of hot Don is reminding me of a current actor but I haven't yet figured out who.......

So young.

Monroe’s last living leading man.

Robert Mitchum was the sexiest, though.

Don Murray might have been the most marriageable.

Murray and Mitchum were just about the only 2 age-appropriate and sexually viable leading men MM ever had.

Ooops. I'm forgetting Tony Curtis because he spent so much of that movie in a dress.

Murray's breakout Broadway role in The Rose Tattoo must have been right up Tennessee Williams' alley.

R109 David Wayne in How To Marry A Millionaire, Keith Andes in Clash By Night, Richard Widmark in Don't Bother To Knock. Though who's to say what is or isn't age appropriate?

Who do you consider age inappropriate, r109?

This one I will give you, r109.

R82 - he left Knots Landing to do his own series, a sitcom called City Lights Country Road about a divorced country singer with three musically gifted children.

'Many people would say, 'Boy, that was some kind of gamble to leave,' ' says Mr. Murray, whose new series has yet to come to fruition, but who has kept busy with such TV movies as 'Thursday's Child' and 'License to Kill' and the soon-to-be-released feature, 'Peggy Sue Got Married.' 'I didn't feel it was a gamble. I felt that it was an investment. It didn't occur to me that I wouldn't work again, because my identification wasn't with 'Knots Landing.' I think it's definitely a risk for actors who are only known as that one character and haven't established identification in another role.'

R114 Haha!

He mentions City Lights Country Road in the Leta Powell Drake interview. He says he wrote the series for Lorimar and CBS. However the show does not appear on his IMDb page.

A 55 page interview with Murray.

Ooh he says CBS bought my series and we were set to go, but they decided not to film it. And the reason they gave was, it was an hour comedy; there was no precedent, for an hour comedy. Of course it never occurred to me to make it a half-hour comedy.

We have brought DEAD TO ME into the fold like an urchin off the street and its part of the family. Anyone who doesn’t like it can suck Don Murray’s big, uncut, fastly-necrotizing cock!

He didn't show his huge cock to the right person at CBS, apparently.

The reunion show.

The look that tells you he wants it. He needs it. Now.

I would have been on my knees for that look before he even had the belt buckle undone.

[quote] Now, good bye. I leave you.

If only. That whiny little bitch comprises half the thread with whining and pomposity. Bleech.

Hmmmmmm.

🤠 Howdy! 🤠

R69, I agree.

I remember reading a recap of the third episode of the third season in TV Guide.

It read: "After Sid's funeral, Karen..." and I was like NO WAY!!! Sid DIES???

Odd to think years and years before social media and the web that something could be inadvertently spoiled like that. My mom was a widow so it was tough to watch Michael read through the obits and find people who died who were YOUNGER than his father. The things we do to deal with the things that we can't control.

This being TV, of course, Karen finds love two seasons later with M. (Marion) Patrick "Mac" MacKenzie -- a he-man who played basketball with Michael and Eric, loved their mom, and grated on Diana's nerves.

As a lawman, Mac opened up all kinds of stories. There was only so much they could build around Knots Landing Motors, Sid's repair company. I had always heard it was choice to go. Makes sense that that's what they LET him say after he asked for more money and then they booted him.

What. A. Dumb. Move.

But, yes, GREAT for Knots.

Sid was hot. Mac was not.

Gary was KING.

I read some of the 55 page interview linked above. I'll probably read the rest of it soon. So far, it's fascinating. I didn't realize that even as a young man Don did so much for refugees and was such a humanitarian and activist, and that his wife at the time, Hope Lange, joined him in some of these activities.

Murray wanted too much money after the first season of Knots Landing. As a result, they killed him off--a rarity to kill off a lead character for the time.

"In 1979, Murray starred as Sid Fairgate on the prime-time soap opera Knots Landing. He also scripted two episodes of the program in 1980. In 1981, Murray decided to leave the series after two seasons to concentrate on other projects, but some sources say he left over a salary dispute. The character's death was notable at the time, because it was considered rare to kill off a star character."

Also, he turned down several studio contracts as a young actor, not wanting to be roped in to a 7 year contract without choices. When he did Bus Stop, he had had hepatitis and was suffering from pleurisy. A doctor who was with the acting company on location gave him a med to cure it halfway through the picture.

R86, it really was shocking! I remember my mom telling me that they’d never kill off Sid. She had told me the exact same thing about Lucille Wexler on Guiding Light the year before.

MARY!

R131 I already explained all that in my response, 126 responses before you.

I got a story for ya, r133

I would have loved to run the tip of my tongue up and down his chin cleft.

R134. The boys needed a refresher.

I love Diana Muldaur. One of the best actresses working in TV in the 1960s.

[quote]I don’t really find the DL Dead to Me objectionable or tawdry. It is just one of DL’s silly conventions and traditions and the continuity is kind of fun and comforting.

It's played out and boring as shit.

If you feel passionately about the DEAD TO ME convention, please start a new thread to hold that debate and leave this one to Don Murray adulation.

Tiny towel.

Sword-and-sandal foray.

Tub.

[quote] As a lawman, Mac opened up all kinds of stories.

Not just the world of stories Mac brought, but also new characters: Paige, Greg, Jill, and Anne for example. Also, the death of Sid gave them a retconned rich Aunt Fairgate bequeathing Lotus Point to Karen and Abby. Good Lord they got years of mileage out of that. One thing I did find funny was that at the time of Sid's death, I don't recall anyone having informed his daughter Annie or "lost" younger brother (seen in only one episode and never again mentioned again).

[quote] There was only so much they could build around Knots Landing Motors, Sid's repair company.

In an interview, Donna Mills joked about it. She said when she first started on Knots Landing, she didn't get why so much centered on Knots Landing Motors saying, in effect, no one comes home from a long day at work to turn on the TV and look at a garage.

In the 55 page interview he talks about writing a book. Did that get published?

[quote] Sid was hot. Mac was not. Gary was KING.

As a gayling during the original run, my eyes were mainly on Kenny Ward. Gary was second. I certainly think Sid was handsome but he seemed soooo old. Old even for Karen (I think he was about 15 years her senior in real life). I didn't find Mac handsome, but much later in reruns I did start to think he was hot. Oh, and I'm very sorry Mac's lawyer friend disappeared so soon. I forget the character's name but it was played by the very sexy Peter Fox. Lastly, Greg always looked like he was a day late for a shower.

Kenny was very appealing.

But Gary was the one to make my tongue loll out.

Variety went with a photo of him at his fanciest.

Was he the last living actor to have played leading man roles before 1960?

If you count TV -- Clint Eastwood.

Broadway - Dick Van Dyke (started in 1960, so not BEFORE 1960.)

Robert Wagner is still living R150

[quote]Was he the last living actor to have played leading man roles before 1960?

Was Russ Tamblyn considered Leading Man in Peyton Place? I think Father of the Bride and Fathers Little Dividend were Supporting. And West Side Story was after 1960 and not really Leading, I guess.

Throwing in foreign and B movies, in addition to Robert Wagner and Russ Tamblyn (who played leads or ensemble leads in several other 50s films not mentioned by R153), still alive with leading young man roles before 1960 are Pat Boone, Alain Delon, James Darren, Michael Craig, William Russell, Earl Holliman, Darryl Hickman, Brett Halsey, Robert Fuller, Mario Adorf, and Victor Rebenguic.

[quote] Robert Wagner is still living

*splash*

R154 - how long did it take you to get that list together?

Not long, R156, most of it is from the link here, easily cross-referenced.

I don't think any of those actors equal the stardom of Don Murray in the 1950s with the possible exception of Robert Wagner. And Wagner didn't do anything back then to equal Murray starring opposite MM in Bus Stop as early as 1956. In spite of him earning a Best Supporting Oscar for that role, Murray was clearly the male lead.

Wagner didn't do anything back then to equal Murray starring opposite MM in Bus Stop as early as 1956.

He survived the TItanic.

In terms of box office, Pat Boone was huge in the late 50s, voted just behind Rock Hudson and John Wayne in 1957.

Naughty, naughty Pat...

Robert Wagner was very popular and Don Murray wasn't. Wagner's first starring role was in 1953, in Beneath The 12 Mile Reef. Then starred in Prince Valiant, White Feather, Broken Lance (all before 1956). A Kiss Before Dying, The Mountain (co-starring with Spencer Tracy), Between Heaven And Hell, The True Story Of Jesse James, etc. He had to carry almost all those films as the star.

Wagner was a leading man in the 50s, 60s and 70s and more prolific than Don Murray. He was in 2 popular TV series: It Takes a Thief and Hart to Hart.

[quote]He had to carry almost all those films as the star.

All the while hiding his love of cock from Natalie and his adoring fans.

R 163 he was in Switch with Eddie Albert too.

I imagine Wagner had Paul Newman's cock they did 3 films together: Harper, Winning and The Towering Inferno

[quote]Wagner didn't do anything back then to equal Murray starring opposite MM in Bus Stop as early as 1956.

[quote]He survived the TItanic.

After clumsily falling into the water while trying to help lower a lifeboat. He hit his head and had to be pulled into another lifeboat, thereby skirting all of that "women and children first" protocol. Some hero.

That was only a movie R167 more importantly he didn't help Natalie when she was in the water.

Wasn’t he a closet gay who never married? Who am I thinking of?

Earl Holliman, R169?

Murray didn't make the best career choices. In the UCLA interview linked upthread, he mentions that he turned down Paul Newman's role in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.

[quote] he turned down Paul Newman's role in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.

Easier to play a closet gay opposite Inga Swenson than Elizabeth Taylor.

He did surprisingly well getting work, considering he didn't seem to be particularly obsessed with acting He had many other interests. I was surprised at how many opportunities he turned down at the start of his acting career. That took a lot of confidence, or optimism. H seemed to have no fear.

*He seemed

In 2018 he had a substantial role in Twin Peaks. I thought it was cool that he was still at it in his late '80s.

As I said, WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTION OF ROBERT WAGNER......

Though I still don't think anything Wagner did in the 1950s equaled Don Murray starring opposite MM in BUs Stop.

Tom Ewell and Joseph Cotten also starred opposite Monroe. So did a lot of other people. I don’t get why that’s such a career achievement.

R176 AS I said Wagner was more prolific and well-known and appearing with MM is hardly a career.

R84- Maureen Stapleton-

ALWAYS matronly

NEVER young

R86- Sadder still was when Rebecca Wentworth died after being in a plane ✈️ crash 💥 on Dallas.

[quote]Tom Ewell and Joseph Cotten also starred opposite Monroe. So did a lot of other people. I don’t get why that’s such a career achievement.

Because he was chosen to play the love interest of the biggest star in the world at that time. Tom Ewell was hardly her love interest.

Appearing as a romantic interest to MM in a film in that was based on a play by William Inge and directed by Joshua Logan was as prestigious as it gets in the mid-1950s

I beg to differ.

As do I.

The moviegoing public didn't care about Tolstoy in the '50s. Stuffy and boring! William Inge was one of the hottest playwrights of the day.

So now it's gone from prestigious to hot?

Hollywood has its own ideas of prestige, R186, We were discussing why this was such a huge opportunity for Don Murray.

Everyone agrees it was a huge opportunity, just a question of hyperbole or not hyperbole.

The poster who wondered why it was a bigger deal for him than it had been for Tom Ewell didn't seen to think it was such a huge opportunity. That's how this discussion got started.

Fuck, do I hate Tom Ewell!

[Quote] Appearing as a romantic interest to MM in a film in that was based on a play by William Inge and directed by Joshua Logan was as prestigious as it gets in the mid-1950s

R182 ever hear of A Streetcar Named Desire (1951] or Baby Doll (1956) both films adapted from the work of Tennessee Williams and directed by Elia Kazan?

R191, what's your point, and what does any of that have to do with Don Murray in BUS STOP?

Sounds like he wasn’t really Hollywood. It’s not for everyone, is it?

R185 Some of them must have, since War And Peace was the 7th highest grossing film of 1956. And Bus Stop...wasn’t even in the top 10.

R192 you dense

R194 Wagner was in big budget, all-star films like The Longest day (1962) and The Towering Inferno (1974) whose name is still recognizable today, but I don't think the name Don Murray would be known by many. I actually thought Murray had died years ago. And the trollina who keeps bringing up Bus Stop and MM will never get it.

r196, are you dense? We were talking specifically about leading actors (not actresses) from the mid-1950s who are still alive today. Or in Murray's case, last week. That is how the comparison between Wagner and Murray originally came up. It had nothing to do with the 60s or 70s.

Wagner was your basic contract player who was featured in mostly forgettable films, usually in supporting roles. Murray had done stage work, avoided being under an exclusive contract and had a breakthrough in what turned out to be a major film.

I much prefer Murray to Wagner, but let's look at the history: By '56 Wagner had already starred in eight 20th Century Fox productions and was a pretty big deal. He received critical acclaim that year in A Kiss Before Dying. He and Murray were on fairly equal footing for the rest of the decade. In the UCLA interview upthread, Murray even alludes to how unhappy he was with the state of his career by the end of the 50s, by which point he was stuck filming as second banana to Alan Ladd in a B western.

Murray would have starred with Grace Kelly in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof if he had accepted the role of Brick. That is until she withdrew to get married.

Murray's reasoning wasn't the best either. He turned down Brick because he didn't want to play an alcoholic after playing a heroin addict. A Williams play had put him on the map, and another one on film would have kept him there.

He wanted to switch it up and do a musical!

I didn't know that George Cukor was attached to direct Cat until he decided he didn't like the gay politics. It's mentioned on the AFI page.

Interesting interview with Don Murray on Gilbert Gottfried’s podcast.

[quote]I didn't know that George Cukor was attached to direct Cat until he decided he didn't like the gay politics. It's mentioned on the AFI page.

But, of course, the "gay politics" were almost completely removed from the movie of CAT. And removing all of that must have been planned from the beginning, as that subject matter would never have been included in a mainstream film with major stars at that time.

Modern sources indicate Cukor’s reason for declining to direct the film was due to his feeling that the screenplay presented an unrealistic treatment of the homosexual theme.

The final movie present almost no homosexual theme whatsoever, R206. You have to look awfully hard for it, which is not true of the original stage play.

Interesting factoid: "A Hatful Of Rain" was written by Michael V. Gazzo, who played Frankie Pentangeli in "The Godfather: Part II."

[quote]Murray’s son Christopher is an epic nepo baby

He's been working steadily since for decades. The whole "nepo baby" thing is ridiculous. Famous parents gets your foot in the door. It doesn't keep you in the room for very long.

Wagner most definitely was a bigger name than Don Murray in the 50's.

R197 Who made you hall monitor? And if you followed the discussion, you'd understand it better. And no discussion needs to be limited to your criteria.

Jeffrey Hunter, Anthony Perkins, Tab Hunter, Rock Hudson, Robert Wagner, James Dean, Tony Curtis were among the most prolific young actors of the 1950s

You use Bing?

There are idiots on this thread who'd probably insist Robert Wagner was a bigger star than James Dean cause Jimmy only made 3 films and never starred in a TV series in the 60s and the 70s.

Sure Jan, let's see those idiots come forward then.

R213 not a likely probability though Dean made only 3 films and he didn't work with MM either.

I didn’t know that he was a conscientious objector in WWII.

R216, The Korean War.

R213 Dean became a cult figure after death the only film of his that was a notable BO success was Giant which starred Elizabeth Taylor and Rock Hudson.

[quote]Don Murray, Oscar-Nominated Star of ‘Bus Stop,’ Dies at 94

And here I thought that Marilyn Monroe was the star of "Bus Stop."

[Quote] You use Bing?

R212 a more reliable source than what you pull from your ass and I don't need a colonoscope to get the facts.

[quote]Dean became a cult figure after death the only film of his that was a notable BO success was Giant which starred Elizabeth Taylor and Rock Hudson.

I guess "Rebel Without a Cause" has to be satisfied with merely being one of the most iconic films of the 1950s.

Here's another recent interview with Don.

Don and Tab

[Quote] I guess "Rebel Without a Cause" has to be satisfied with merely being one of the most iconic films of the 1950s.

it became that over time just like It's a Wonderful Life years after its initial release. And I sincerely hope Rebel Without a Cause is satisfied.

Here's more examples of films that became iconic years after their release

Don and Monty

It seems Hope's early career eclipsed Don's. Besides working with MM in Bus Stop, Hope worked with Elvis, Joan Crawford, Brando, Bette Davis, Lana Turner and twice with Robert Wagner and Jeffrey Hunter in The True Story of Jesse James (1957) and In Love and War (1958)

Hope was already fooling around with Glenn Ford well before her marriage with Don ended. Her star rose around the same time that Don's began to fall.

What timeline are you using R228? Both made their film debuts in Bus Stop for which Don received an Oscar nod and the following year Hope was Oscar nominated for Peyton Place.

Timeline for Hope's continued rise and Don's fall? Lange's first starring role was in The Best of Everything in '59, when Murray was filming as second-billed to Alan Ladd in a piece of garbage, trailer upthread at R199. Then things continued to rise for Hope, not so much for Don, which he acknowledges in the UCLA interview also upthread.

In the end, Hope never really became a bigger star. Both of them had the indignity of guesting on "Murder, She Wrote".

Hope Lange landed a sexy sailor spirit, though.

R230, “The Best of Everything” had three female leads, Diane Baker, Hope Lange and Suzy Parker.

FUN FACT

Hope Lange delivered the main eulogy at Natalie Wood’s burial service.

He is in the stereo cabinet and no longer shopping the Piggly-Wiggly.

And Hope had top billing, R233.

Hope was the poor man's Eva Marie Saint.

Eva Marie Saint was the poor man's Grace Kelly.

I think Eva was a better actress than Grace

And a better driver.

❤️ r239!

[Quote]I think Eva was a better actress than Grace

Absolutely and a better actress than Hope.

Frank Capra wanted Shirley Jones for the part of 'Queenie' in A Pocketful of Miracles (1961) but star Glenn Ford insisted on Hope.

Glenn Ford was about as interesting as Hope Lange, maybe less so.

Shirley Jones would have been a step up.

Hope is dreadful in A Pocketful of Miracles. No sense of comedy, no sex appeal, no nothing. She barely registers in the film and I would imagine it was the beginning of her movie star derailment.

And, I'd also add, that in spite of being top-billed in The Best of Everything, she's duller than dirt in that one, too, and even the demure Diane Baker and non-actress Suzy Parker steal focus from Hope in every scene she shares with them both.

Hope was fine in supporting good girl roles as in BUs Stop and Peyton Place but was never interesting enough to become an A-list leading lady in films. It's also fascinating to watch her interact with the other young actresses in those Roddy McDowell Malibu home movies. Compared to the natural beauty and charisma of Natalie Wood, Tuesday Weld, Lee Remick, Jane Fonda, Suzanne Pleshette and so many others, Hope looks like the hired help.

I don't disagree that EMS was a much better actress than the princess, but Grace was a MUCH bigger star than EMS ever was.

No offense to Eva Marie Saint but did she ever star (as the leading lady in another big movie after the opportunity Hitchcock gave her in North by Northwest? I guess there was Exodus, but....

Don, Hope and Johnny Mathis at the premiere for The Best of Everything (at 0:42).

That's BEST OF EVERYTHING's authoress Rona Jaffee with Don and Hope at the premiere!

One hit wonder if there ever was one.

I remember an interview with Eva Marie Saint where she explained that in the fifties, she was being pushed to become a major star, but she said she was a mother with young kids at that point and didn’t want it. She stated her goal had always been to be a “working actress.”

Sure, Eva, sure.

Eva won an Oscar opposite Brando in her film debut On the Waterfront (1954) She played opposite Don Murray in A Hatful of Rain (1957) with Clift and Liz in Raintree County (1957), Cary Grant in North by Northwest (1959), Paul Newman in Exodus (1960) with Warren Beatty in All Dall Down (1962) Liz and Dick in The Sandpiper (1965) ,1966s The Russians are Coming . . . and Grand Prix, The Stalking Moon (1969) with Gregory Peck, Loving (1970) opposite George Segal and in 1986 Nothing in Common with Tom Hanks and Jackie Gleason. She had quite a career.

Nice try, r250, but most of those are supporting roles, including the one for her Oscar.

b. 1924 Saint is the oldest living female Oscar winner and in 1962 she played Warren Beatty's love interest in All Fall Down and Angela Lansbury who is a year younger than Saint played Beatty's mother

Well, as long as Angela wasn't playing Eva's mother I see no problem. Surely, Eva was supposed to be Warren's older lover?

Not necessarily R251

Although the role of Edie Doyle properly is a lead, producer Sam Spiegel listed her as a Supporting Actress in the hopes of getting her a nomination. The ploy worked and she won the Oscar.

[Quote] Well, as long as Angela wasn't playing Eva's mother I see no problem. Surely, Eva was supposed to be Warren's older lover?

Actually, Angela looked old enough to be Saint's mother. In 1962 Angela played Laurence Harvey's mother in The Manchurian Candidate even though she was just 3 years older than him!

Eva Marie Saint is on the borderline between leading lady and supporting actress. She never became a bona fide film star who was able to open and carry a picture but she graced every movie she was in either as the love interest or the other woman. The argument above is kinda pointless.

R251 Saint was nominated for Best Actress for On the Waterfront by the NYFCC along with Audrey Hepburn, Judy Garland and June Allyson with Grace Kelly winning.

Best Actress Grace Kelly

WINNER The Country Girl, Rear Window, Dial M for Murder

Audrey Hepburn

Sabrina

Eva Marie Saint

On the Waterfront

Judy Garland

A Star Is Born

June Allyson

The Glenn Miller Story

Eva Marie Saint wasn't even as sexy as Hope Lange and that's a truly low bar. Lovely actress, tho....

Eva Marie Saint @18:12

IEva Marie Saint was not that interested in being a big star. She did have a long, happy marriage (to director Jeffrey Hayden. I once saw them do Love Letters, in Ogunquit, and met them later. I honestly doubt EMS wold have wanted to trade places with Elizabeth Taylor. She found a way to balance career and family life - and since her 20s she’s worked as an actress most of her life. The previous poster didn’t mention that she also starred with Bob Hope in two films, and she was in The Trip to Bountiful on TV (and Broadway) with Lillian Gish, and in Paddy Chayevsky’s Middle Of the Night on TV.

Despite that, she still became a household name.

(Despite no wanting to be a big star.)

Not everyone is aware of it but Hope Lange originally had a major part in How The West Was Won (1962). She played the daughter of Henry Fonda’s mountain man character, and the first wife of George Peppard’s character. Her entire performance was cut out of the movie.

I think it was to tighten the film, not because she wasn’t good. But I don’t really know.

There’s a scene where Peppard goes into one of those saloons in a tent that were part of the expanding railroad. In the scene, Hope Lange was introduced as a dancing girl onstage.

Lange and Peppard.

Is Eva Marie Saint at 99 the oldest living Oscar winning actor?

I saw an interview with Eva Marie. Her agent said if she wanted to be a star she had to work continuously but she would only do one film a year.

R264 yes according to the R157 list.

[quote]Is Eva Marie Saint at 99 the oldest living Oscar winning actor?

Yes, now that I'm no longer around. And I won two consecutive Best Actress Oscars!

[quote]Eva Marie Saint is on the borderline between leading lady and supporting actress. She never became a bona fide film star who was able to open and carry a picture but she graced every movie she was in either as the love interest or the other woman. The argument above is kinda pointless.

I agree with all, including your last sentence. It continually amazes me that some people insist on arguing bitterly over things that cannot be defined and/or don't have black and white, right or wrong answers.

[quote]and fled a gay bar as a closeted senator in Advise & Consent

That gay bar scene is unintentionally hilarious. He walks in and spots the guy trying to blackmail him. He runs out and the blackmailer runs out after him. The blackmailer’s date, in the nelliest gay voice he can produce, yells out, “Hey, you’re with me!”

She looks like Eva Marie Saint / In On the Waterfront

I think of this old Lloyd Cole song whenever I hear her name. What a great shortcut to describe someone who is breathtakingly lovely.

[Quote] agree with all, including your last sentence. It continually amazes me that some people insist on arguing bitterly over things that cannot be defined and/or don't have black and white, right or wrong answer

R268 could you specify what the bitter argument is about?

R271, I made a general comment, but specifically, I was referring to the arguments here over who was a bigger movie star at a certain period of time -- for example, Don Murray or Robert Wagner.

Eva Marie Saint also played Emily in the musical TV version of On The Town, opposite Paul Newman as George - where Frank Sinatra introduced Love And Marriage as the Stage Manager. Hear Saint and Newman sing at 44:00.

I never miss a Paul Newman musical.

*Our* Town

R273 Wow. I've been wanting to see that forever. Thanks for posting.

[quote]R193 Sounds like he wasn’t really Hollywood. It’s not for everyone, is it?

He had a coddled, incurable case of White Male Privilege - thinking he could waltz through town, deigning to pick up a role here, play a role there, always refusing to be “trapped” by a long term contract. Meanwhile actresses and performers of color were bending over ash cans for producers in the studio alleyways, just to keep bread in their children’s mouths.

I bent over plenty of ash cans and you won't hear me griping about it, baby!

#TheRequisiteEnabler

R275 Ooops. Posting from work.

[quote]r13 He was good in ENDLESS LOVE. Pretty much everyone was, except for Brooke.

As the New York Times said, “Shields has a face that transcends the need to act.”

I haven't said anything but to be honest I did not find him as physically attractive as many people seem to in this thread.

Cross-reference to the Pamelyn Ferdin thread.

Did Don ever make a comedy film or TV show?

[quote]r282 I haven't said anything but to be honest I did not find him as physically attractive as many people seem to in this thread.

This. Is. SACRILEGE!

There was something so sexy about him. I fucking love DL. Only saw him in Bus Stop.

R262 at a wearying 2h44m a lot more could have been deleted from HTWWW

How the West Was Lost would be a more appropriate title for this dud epic since as conceived by the writer James R Webb the pioneers seemed to be dimwitted bunglers who can't do anything right-Pauline Kael

Indeed he did, R284.

Carroll Baker is in “How the West was Won.”

But it’s still not enough to make me watch it [bold] : (

Don Murray was very ‘meh’ to me. Like Cliff Robertson, another attractive-but-dull actor who had zero sex appeal and therefore never became a star.

At a certain point, Hope Lange became a serious alcoholic. Her drinking became so out of control that she was fired from the ‘The New Dick Van Dyke Show,’ and she had a very sloppy, drunken affair (which probably mostly involved drinking to excess) with gay closeted writer John Cheever.

I think she never looked more beautiful than she did in “Peyton Place” as Selena Cross.

Who played his Bus Stop role on stage? Albert Salmi who was no pretty boy. But apparently Albert was offered the same role for the film opposite Monroe but turned it down.

It may have been brief, like just 3 years or so, but Cliff Robertson was a huge star in the early 60s, winning an Oscar for Charly and being chosen to play JFK in PT 109, neither of which required much sex appeal. I always thought the money he acquired as Mr. Dina Merrill made him just a little lazy about his career.

And, actually, when he was younger, I thought he could be quite the hairy-chested hunk.

Albert Salmi and Kim Stanley

Did anyone ever tell Albert he might be mistaken for Salami?

[quote]r290 At a certain point, Hope Lange became a serious alcoholic. Her drinking became so out of control that she was fired from the ‘The New Dick Van Dyke Show,’ and she had a very sloppy, drunken affair (which probably mostly involved drinking to excess) with gay closeted writer John Cheever.

Wow. She always seemed too wholesome and prissy to be a big boozer. But anyone can get hooked. I wonder what she was drinking over.

"Did anyone ever tell Albert he might be mistaken for Salami?"

He was an abusive drunk and a murderer, so I'm not sure you'd want to get on his bad side!

I never thought of Hope Lange as “prissy.”

I always thought of Cliff Robertson as a star. Maybe not the biggest but he was popular and everyone knew who he was. Playbill referred to him as a movie star.

[quote]r292 Cliff Robertson was a huge star in the early 60s… I always thought the money he acquired as Mr. Dina Merrill made him just a little lazy about his career.

When I read the book Indecent Exposure (which he figures briefly in) I remember thinking, “I know he’s a… star, but I’ve never seen him in anything.”

I finally did see him in OBSESSION.

Cliff Robertson was handpicked by Pres. Kennedy to play him in PT 109.

R298 - Cliff was a nightmare on that film. Brian De Palma tells funny stories about him.

Cliff was once also Mr. Dina Merrill.

r300, details please!

We haven’t talked about me in some time.

In the documentary De Palma he recounts that Cliff would deliberately deliver poor performances and line readings when shooting reverse shots for Genevieve Bujold. He also insisted on dark tanning makeup, which made lighting him so difficult that at one point cinematographer Vilmos Zsigmond shoved him against a wood wall and shouted "You! You are the same color as this wall!"

^ Whoa, he sounds like an asshole

Which makes it okay for a cinematographer to shove him against a wall.

[Quote]Don Murray was very ‘meh’ to me. Like Cliff Robertson, another attractive-but-dull actor who had zero sex appeal and therefore never became a star.

He was competent but generally dull, and handsome in a generic way. He was the perfect type to play a politician.

He was good in the Hoodlum Priest but unconvincing as a drug addict in A Hatful of Rain

He was no Ralph Meeker.

Ralph Meeker was no EJ Peaker

In this still from the film Robertson appears to be wearing no makeup at all.

What the hell’s that?

^^ In re: to

[quote]r299 Cliff Robertson was handpicked by Pres. Kennedy to play him in PT 109.

"Carrie" more than made up for the dullness of Cliff in the derivative "Obsession."

In 1956 Don worked with MM and Cliff worked with our Joan

R312, JFK initially wanted Warren Beatty to portray him, but Warren turned down the role.

Cliff Robertson’s hotness peaked in “Gidget”.

Robertson had a level of fame that would have been similar to Don Murray's.

R317 Only in the mid-'50s to early '60s. If ever. Robertson won an Oscar for Best Actor in the late '60's. When Murray was mostly forgotten by the public.

“A VERY SPECIAL WEEKEND WITH DON MURRAY” ROXIE FESTIVAL HIGHLIGHTS NEGLECTED AMERICAN ACTOR San Francisco, CA (June 13, 2014) - More than two decades of oblivion are coming to an end for Don Murray. The 84-year-old actor/filmmaker is the subject of a forthcoming documentary, UNSUNG HERO (Midcentury Productions, scheduled for release in November 2014) and he’ll be the subject of an ambitious retrospective at San Francisco ’s Roxie Theater over the weekend of July 11-13.

“Don Murray was as big a star in the late 50s as Paul Newman,” said Roxie programmer Elliot Lavine, who is coordinating the retrospective in association with Midcentury Productions’ Don Malcolm, who’s producing and directing UNSUNG HERO. “What happened to him is one of the truly baffling events in Hollywood history, and it’s a story that’s just begging to be told.”

Cliff Robertson never fell into obscurity.

Cliff suffered some career decline in the late 70s and unwanted notoriety, no thanks to the David Begelman scandal.

UNSUNG HERO - Experts Dissect the Don Murray Mystery

Cliff had a prominent role in Natalie Wood's final film Brainstorm (1983)

[Quote]“Don Murray was as big a star in the late 50s as Paul Newman,” said Roxie programmer Elliot Lavine,

Pure hyperbole! From 1956-1959 Newman starred in Somebody Up There Likes Me, Until They Sail, The Rack, The Young Philadelphians, The Left-Handed Gun, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, The Young Philadelphians, The Helen Morgan Story, Rally Round the Flag, Boys! and The Long, Hot Summer.

All of which are etched in the memories of millions of Americans, R322...

R323 Newman was a more popular, well-known and busier performer than Don Muray ever was from the very start. Both actors made their film debuts in the mid-fifties and Newman's star went on for decades.

Newman, Wagner and Cliff Robertson are listed but not Don

Clickbait and Roberson ranks very far down. Wagner does well because he was in more films, which shows how this "ranking" is easily gamed. he shouldn't rank above Cary Grant who was a much bigger star of the 50s.

and Don Murray?

Who is that creep in the van in the Unsung Hero trailer?

R321, He kept repeating he wanted Walken, Fletcher and Natalie to knock his socks off.

Cliff Robertson and Piper Laurie were the original stars of Days Of Wine And Roses (live TV version) - both were great. Lemmon and Remick were also great in the movie, but Robertson was really outstanding and it was things like that that made him well known that today people really forget about.

R329 - is that a metaphor?

it's an idiom. And the film which is a mess didn't knock anyone's socks off.

R279 - Wow, in that photo Hope looks like Joanne Woodward's plain, awkward kid sister. Yikes.

R332, By today’s standards, the film’s special effects are laughable.

R329

Miami Herald Bill Cosford

No ears for dialogue around here, either: Several characters observe that the invention "blew my socks off," an expression so odd that we expect it to lead to a comic payoff. But there is none, and there's not much to the movie, either. [30 Sept 1983]

[quote] JFK initially wanted Warren Beatty to portray him, but Warren turned down the role.

JFK's womanizing was too much for even Beatty to portray on screen.

R323 Somebody Up There Likes Me. The Long Hot Summer, Cat On A Hot Tin Roof, Rally ‘Round the Flag, Boys, and The Young Philadelphians were all big hits. From The Terrace (1960) was a smash, in the box office Top 10 for the year. Bus Stop was the only big hit Don Murray was in from 1956-1960, and the films are not remembered now, other than maybe A hatful Of Rain (a box office flop).

(^.^) Most of those movies starring Paul Newman were frequently shown on TV in the 60s and 70s which is how I saw Cat, The Long Hot Summer, Rally Round the Flag, Boys and Somebody Up There Likes Me.

The success of those films led to Newman becoming a huge star in the 60s with Exodus, Sweet Bird of Youth, Hud, The Prize, Harper, The Hustler, Torn Curtain, Winning, Cool Hand Luke and Butch Cassidy the #1 film at the BO in 1969 by which time Newman had been nominated 4 times for Best Actor and his directorial debut Rachel, Rachel was a Best Picture nominee.

And it didn’t hurt Newman that he and Woodward were a popular team.

R339 - Is that what they were? I always thought Newman and Woodward were a married couple.

R340 Huh? Yeah, so were Lunt and Fontanne. Married in their personal life They were also an acting team, professionally. Do you understand the difference?

R340 Bogart and Bacall? Same thing.

In Hollywood, the 1950s was still dominated by male stars who began in the 1930s - Gable, Cooper, Grant, Wayne, Stewart, Bogart, Holden. And 1940s - Peck, Mitchum, Lancaster, Douglas.

That any actor in his 20s, whose career began in the 1950s could make a big impression was rare, but Newman had accomplished that by the end of the decade. I suppose Rock Hudson was also in that category.

and Anthony Perkins and Robert Wagner judging by the number of films they were in during the 50s.

Enough about Robert Wagner!

In the 1950s he was a lightweight juvenile male ingenue and came nowhere near the fame of those iconic male stars of the 1930s and 40s who were still dominating American cinema in that decade. Even Jeffrey Hunter, Fox's other handsome young juvenile got cast in more prestigious projects than Wagner, like The Searchers. Even fuckin' Tony Curtis was more respected as an actor and achieved better roles in high profile films by the end of the 50s.

Wagner's career was essentially over by 1962 as his marriage to Natalie Wood collapsed....until he made a comeback as a TV star in the 70s. But he always remained a lightweight.

Hey! What about me??

Yet Wagner got top billing over Hunter in the films they made together R345

Paul Newman could not do comedy at all…

Wagner outlived them all: Hunter, Murray, Newman, Hope Lange, Perkins and Natalie

[quote]Paul Newman could not do comedy at all…

Apparently you've never seen "The Silver Chalice."

Tab Hunter had a very brief heyday. Unless you count his John Waters films, he never really had any kind of second act.

[Quote] Paul Newman could not do comedy at all…

[Quote] Apparently you've never seen "The Silver Chalice."

or Slap Shot R348 It's one of his best performances. And he was funny in the hugely successful Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

[quote]R336 JFK initially wanted Warren Beatty to portray him, but Warren turned down the role.

JFK then wanted Lucy to portray him, but Gary talked her out of it.

Wagner's neck in neck with Earl Holliman to see who outlives whom among the 50s young guns.

In "Pocket Money" (1972) Newman is very funny as a dopey but hot cowboy.

Newman had a sly undercurrent of humor in pretty much all but his seriously serious films.

Newman couldn't do a certain kind of comedy - actual comedy, like, Jack Lemmon could, or Cary Grant - or Tony Curtis. He was unfunny in several comedies. Slap Shot wasn't that style.

Don't forget, Elvis was a huge movie star in the 50s. May not have been an actor but you can't leave him out.

Not a Cantinflas amongst them.

[quote] In Hollywood, the 1950s was still dominated by male stars who began in the 1930s - Gable, Cooper, Grant, Wayne, Stewart, Bogart, Holden. And 1940s - Peck, Mitchum, Lancaster, Douglas.

[quote] That any actor in his 20s, whose career began in the 1950s could make a big impression was rare, but Newman had accomplished that by the end of the decade. I suppose Rock Hudson was also in that category.

Tony Curtis was pretty big. Of course if you're talking about a big impression, James Dean briefly made one. Also since you didn't mention Marlon Brando and Montgomery Clift, not sure where they fit in but both were huge stars (in their 30s) in the 50s. Brando's screen career began in the '50s and Clift's a few years before.

[Quote] Newman had a sly undercurrent of humor in pretty much all but his seriously serious films.

That's true of his performances in Hud, Cool Hand Luke, Butch Cassidy Fort, Apache, the Bronx . . .most of the comedies he appeared in like Rally Round the Flag, Boys and What a Way to Go! were lame.

A lot of it depended on how well you smoldered, r360.

There were actually a lot of stars who became big in the '50s (who were not necessarily in their '20s). Charlton Heston, Richard Burton, Jeff Chandler, Yul Brynner, Stewart Granger, James Mason, Jack Lemmon, Gordon MacRae, Howard Keel, Richard Todd, even Martin & Lewis.

Well Don and Hope were no Paul and Joanne.

Paul and Joanne on What's My Line

Here we go again with whether Cliff Robertson was a "huge" star or not like the argument about Eva Marie Saint. He wasn't. He was a well-known actor who secured the rights of Charly because he knew he could get noticed with it but he didn't go much farther than Charly after he won the Oscar for it. He mostly played secondary roles in movies and was not known for opening a picture after his very few hits in the late 50's early 60's.

With Lana in the bad movie we love, Love has Many Faces

Everyone knew who Cliff Robertson was. Not a huge star but the average American knew him by name and face. My dad, if I showed him a picture of Cliff Robertson, would know who he was. Don Murray, he would have no idea. He'd probably think he looked a little familiar.

Murray was briefly famous, his career had no momentum, and for the rest of his life he was a working actor, toiling in relative obscurity. That's it.

That's a bit dismissive and reductive. He was prominent in the late 50s and early 60s., declined for roughly 15 years before a resurgence in the 80s, then had intermittent success near the end of his career with Twin Peaks as an example. If he were that obscure, we wouldn't be at 370 replies, even if a fair number of them digress.

I'd say almost half digress actually.^

Unlike Robert Wagner or Cliff Robertson, Murray was one of those familiar actors you probably couldn't name by sight.

Unless you've seen Bus Stop, Advise and Consent, The Hoodlum Priest, A Hatful of Rain, Knots Landing, The Outcasts....

Who knew Don was in so many enduringly popular classic films?

[Quote] Unless you've seen Bus Stop, Advise and Consent, The Hoodlum Priest, A Hatful of Rain, Knots Landing, The Outcasts....

and don't forget The Viking Queen

Wasn’t he married to Hope Lange? Her brother killed Karyn Kupcinet.

which caused Hope to become a lush

that and Edward Mulhare's breath

[quote]With Lana in the bad movie we love, Love has Many Faces .

A.k.a. "Lana Has Many Costume Changes."

and Edith Head designed the ugly, cheap looking million-dollar wardrobe

Will Murray be included in the Academy's In Memoriam

[Quote] Cliff Robertson was handpicked by Pres. Kennedy to play him in PT 109.

Robertson played a Presidential Candidate not unlike Kennedy in the film version of Gore Vidal's The Best Man (1964)

Nor if there's a publicist or Hollywood lawyer unknown to the public whom the Academy would rather include, R380. I remember that Dorothy Malone was omitted from the In Memoriam the year she died, and she was an Oscar winner (for "Written on the Wind").

^^ Not if , , , ^^

R246, that's a great clip. Thanks. I was surprised to see that DL fave Dorothy Kilgallen was escorted by Johnnie Ray. I thought I must be wrong – he was all but washed up in the US by ’59 – but then I read Ray’s entry at Wikipedia and saw this:

[italic]Ray had a close relationship with journalist and television game show panelist Dorothy Kilgallen. They became acquainted soon after his sudden rise to stardom in the United States. They remained close as his American career declined.[/italic]

R290, both Cliff Robertson and Don Murray had plenty of sex appeal if you like handsome, full-grown-man, upstanding-citizen types. I do, so I think they were both sexy as hell.

R384, Johnnie Ray fathered Dorothy Kilgallen’s youngest child, Kerry, while she was married to Richard Kollmar.

After Dorothy’s death, Kollmar disowned Kerry and banished him from the residence, even though he was still a child.

One look at a photograph of Kerry and you see the resemblance to Johnnie.

An exemplary life and career has come to an end with the recent passing of Don Murray, an actor-writer-activist whose commitment to films exploring social issues was second-to-none. We hope that Don’s memoirs, which sadly did not find a publisher during his lifetime, will at last be made available—Don’s reminiscences are filled with empathy, insight, humor and unflinching honesty and illuminate his incredible life.

MCP will be making UNSUNG HERO, its semi-authorized documentary about Don, temporarily available for on-line screening shortly. There you’ll find out much more about the man’s life and career, including rare projects that remain virtually unknown to even his most ardent admirers.

R381 I think the character was supposed to be more Nixon-esque?

or Joe McCarthy (Robertson) to Henry Fonda's Adlai Stevenson

or Joe McCarthy (Robertson) vs Adlai Stevenson (Fonda)

[quote]Johnnie Ray fathered Dorothy Kilgallen’s youngest child, Kerry, while she was married to Richard Kollmar.

That big ol' mo fathered a child?

Honestly, about the only movie I’ve seen boring Hope Lange in is Blue Velvet.

I just watched The Best of Everything.

[quote]R382 I remember that Dorothy Malone was omitted from the In Memoriam the year she died, and she was an Oscar winner (for "Written on the Wind").

And she was in Basic Instinct! How soon they forget.

PS: the music from Basic Instinct makes the whole thing seem better than it is:

Don wanted to do Basic Instinct with Hope but she wouldn't do the screen nudity.

Didn’t the studio heads say, “I wouldn’t give you FIVE CENTS for those two old broads!”

Shocking.

[quote]I just watched The Best of Everything.

And yet you've never seen "Peyton Place" (the movie)?

This thread is Eldergay-Datalounge distilled to purity and I love it.

[quote]R397 And yet you've never seen "Peyton Place"

They’re both bad movies - but The Best of Everything has a more lively cast (dreary Hope Lange aside.)

Lana Turner is such a dull actress - and there’s so much of her in Peyton Place.

I would’ve ate his ass.

So most of you never saw That Certain Summer?

For people of a certain age say those 40 and under, films like Peyton Place, The Best of Everything, That Certain Summer, Crowhaven Farm and shows like The Ghost and Mrs. Muir weren't shown to death on network TV or cable for that matter as they were in the 60s and 70s.

[Quote] Lana Turner is such a dull actress - and there’s so much of her in Peyton Place.

and perfectly matched with Lee Philips the dullest leading man this side of Efram Zimbalist Jr.

R402 yeah, that’s true. I don’t remember That Certain Summer being played more than a couple of times, on the network, anyway. I saw it when I was about 13. People my age saw Hope Lange a lot on TV. The Ghost and Mrs. Muir was popular with kids.

My friends thought my mom resembled Hope Lange (she did, a little bit) ... I think that shows how at that time everybody knew who she was.

r401

[quote]The film follows Doug Salter, a divorced contractor who is in a same-sex relationship with a man named Gary and his teenage son

An incestuous throuple? How daring for 1972!

[quote]They’re both bad movies - but The Best of Everything has a more lively cast (dreary Hope Lange aside.)

Lange was very pleasant to look at in that film, but her acting is as if she's doing a commercial for Excedrin.

R406 Compared to Suzy Parker, Hope Lange was a genius.

R237 Eva Marie Saint wasn't the poor man's Grace Kelly. Martha Hyer was.

I'm an old guy and I can at least talk about the 1960s....Cliff Robertson and Don Murray were kind of non entities during that decade. Cliff Robertson had a moment with Charly but that's about it. Don Murray was pretty forgotten.

[quote]Compared to Suzy Parker, Hope Lange was a genius.

Yeah, but Suzy Parker had that bone structure.

[Quote] Eva Marie Saint wasn't the poor man's Grace Kelly. Martha Hyer was.

You can say that again!

Hope had a brain tumor.

Note the photo which shows her starring onstage in The Best Man in Los Angeles with Don Murray (after they had been divorced for a long time).

(They were divorced in 1961. This was 1991.)

I'm an old guy and I can at least talk about the 1960s....Cliff Robertson and Don Murray were kind of non entities during that decade. Cliff Robertson had a moment with Charly but that's about it. Don Murray was pretty forgotten.

born in 1965 I can talk about the 70s/80s when many of his films were frequently on TV: Picnic, Obsession, Charly, Three Days of the Condor, Autumn Leaves, Love Has Many Faces, Sunday in New York where he was top-billed even though it was a supporting role and saw Brainstorm on the big screen.

[quote] Sunday in New York where he was top-billed even though it was a supporting role

That's probably a good indicator he wasn't a nonentity.

Poor Hope had to wear a Korean wig after her brain surgery.

R415 "Sunday In New York" wasn't even in the top 25 grossing films of 1963.

Warren Beatty as first choice for the film but he turned it down, it was then offered to Robert Redford...he turned it down. It then went to Robertson.

I think that’s the movie the casting director told Faye Dunaway she wasn’t “pretty enough” for.

Don Murray didn't even make a movie in 1963.

His son Mick made a few films.

R403, Lana’s only Oscar nomination.

R417 According to Wikipedia, Redford auditioned to reprise his stage role but said his reading "did not go well" and he was not cast.

Redford's stage role was Mike Mitchell - played in the movie by Rod Taylor, not Cliff Robertson. Robertson's role was played on Broadway by Conrad Janis.

Rod Taylor is unbelievably sexy in Sunday in New York.

[Quote] Warren Beatty as first choice for the film but he turned it down, it was then offered to Robert Redford...he turned it down. It then went to Robertson.

confirms you don't know what you're talking about R417

In the 1960s what hot must-see movies did Don Murray make?

Advise and Consent

He was in the national tour of California Suite. Here with Elizabeth Allen (who played Paul's wife on The Paul Lynde Show, btw).

Don replaced Robert Reed.

With ex-wife Hope in Same Time, Nest Year.

I wish I had seen this so I could have heard Hope say the line, "Let's fuck."

Robert Reed must have had playing the bisexual antique dealer.

[Quote] Don Murray didn't even make a movie in 1963.

Robertson was in 3 films that year: PT 109, My Six Loves, and Sunday in New York

[Quote]"Sunday In New York" wasn't even in the top 25 grossing films of 1963

PT 109, My Six Loves, and Sunday in New York were popular films in the top third of 1963s highest grossing films.

[Quote] In the 1960s what hot must-see movies did Don Murray make?

I think every possible point has been made about Cliff Robertson vs. Don Murray. The real question is why they are even being compared. Their only similarity seems to be that they both had brown hair and were born in California. CR (Oscar winner) was 6 years older than Murray. He was 5' 10". Murray was 6' 2".

People were comparing their career arcs. I can see Murray in PT109 or Obsession. in this image Murray actually looks like Cliff

Don and Hope ( I guess at the time they were in Same Time, Next Year).

NY Times obit. He looks adorable in the photo with Monroe

Cliff presents the Best Actress Oscar Nominees included a former and a future Robertson costar. Fonda and Bujold.

Jane in full Klute mode plus Alice Ghostley plus Cliff as Bradley Cooper...

One of the films Don starred in I'd never heard of, 1964's One Man's Way, a biopic of Norman Vincent Peale. It looks a little somber.

[quote]r439 One of the films Don starred in I'd never heard of…

And thus it ever was.

Murray directed the ineffable The Cross and the Switchblade with Pat Boone and Erik Estrada. mixing West Side Story with The Hoodlum priest.

'. . . combines amateurish acting, ham-fisted writing, and perfunctory direction into nearly two hours of drab sermonizing inspired by the experiences of the real-life Wilkerson.

'Pat Boone as Rev. Wilkerson is awfully bland. There is nothing in his performance that explains the why and how of his reaching these young truants with the word of God'.

'As for the gangs, they look like something out of a low-budget production of "West Side Story," a group of actors told to look and act tough but remaining actors nevertheless. A pretty girl who is supposed to be a junkie is just a pretty girl'.

[Quote] One of the films Don starred in I'd never heard of, 1964's One Man's Way, a biopic of Norman Vincent Peale. It looks a little somber.

Like the Cross and the Switchblade it's amateurish. preachy and dull

R442, Diana Hyland as his wife.

[quote] Paul Newman could not do comedy at all…

Apparently you've never seen "When Time Ran Out..."

Around 1958 LIFE Magazine did a special issue devoted to Hollywood. It's mostly remembered now for its gorgeous Richard Avedon photos of Marilyn Monroe costumed and made up as various sex goddesses over the years, but there was also a fun photographic essay of the hottest young stars in Hollywood posed in a series of photos dressed as characters in a Mack Sennett silent film about a runaway bride and groom, played by Kim Novak and Rock Hudson, being chased to the beach by Keystone Kops, surrounded by bathing beauties, all played by those hot young actors.

I think Paul Newman and Don Murray are featured, as well as Jim Garner, Nick Adams, Debbie Reynolds, Shirley MacLaine.....but not Robert Wagner. Can't remember if Cliff Robertson is there. If anyone can find it and post it here. lots to talk about.

I didn't find that issue, R445, but here's something close: behind the scenes at the rehearsals for the '58 Oscars. Lots of photo gems of the stars discussed upstream, though sadly no Don.

And just out of view, behind the curtain, is Roddy McDowall blowing Guy Madison.

R441 - Pat should have taken off his shirt to motivate the girls and the boys to do a Brother Act singing tour.

R446 - Janet Leigh looks bizarre in that pic.

The Hoodlum Priest is a good movie.

Some of '58 Lide photos R445 mentions are in the link here. Search under PHOTO ALBUM OF 1958 RALPH CRANE "SAVED AT THE ALTAR" MACK SENNETT SPOOF PHOTO SHOOT.

Life*

Erik Estrada at r441 was eminently fuckable!

Hope Lange had an angelic face that made her sympathetic from the moment you saw her. Her extremely violent death scene in Death Wish was ultra shocking precisely because of this.

[quote]Eva Marie Saint wasn't the poor man's Grace Kelly. Martha Hyer was.

Martha Hyer was the poor man's Kim Novak.

[quote]Diana Hyland as his wife.

Triggered!

r446 Is that Mae West strategically positioned between Van Johnson and Rock Hudson?

R457 Yes, she performed a number at the Oscars with Rock.

R457, Mae loved her gays!

Poor Marge & Gower Champion aren't even identified in that LIFE Oscar rehearsal spread though they're prominently featured.

Whom is the brunette gal sitting on the step behind Janet Leigh's bullet bra? Yvonne de Carlo, maybe?

[quote]Whom is the brunette gal sitting on the step behind Janet Leigh's bullet bra?

Oh, dear.

R460 Ruth Roman, I think.

Being born in the mid-1970s, Don Murray was identifiable to me as Brooke Shields father in Endless Love (which I only saw in the late '80s on tv) and Cliff Robertson was the guy from the long distance plan commercials. I can't remember if he was AT&T, Sprint, MCI or what...

Yes, R453 but those teeth! He was a great asset to Chips in that tight fitting uniform

Don seems like he wasn't the type to put out and as a young stud in Hollywood that might have been a problem.

You know that Tennessee Williams must have at least given this a college try.

His career peaked early on with Bus Stop (1956), A Hatful of Rain, The Hoodlum Priest, Advise and Consent (1962)

Yes, we know.

R468 did we know that he was married to Hope Lange

R469 Yes and he co-starred with Marilyn Monroe!

Second trailer for Unsung Hero.

He was no Glenn Ford

This thread is now without Hope.

Someone once told me that Hope's sisters where names Faith and Charity. And that the three of them were in vaudeville. Actually, he must have made it up.

[Quote] Cliff Robertson was the guy from the long distance plan commercials. I can't remember if he was AT&T, Sprint, MCI or what...

[Quote] I think Paul Newman and Don Murray are featured, as well as Jim Garner, Nick Adams, Debbie Reynolds, Shirley MacLaine.....but not Robert Wagner.

Wagner was probably too busy making one of the 23 films he appeared in during the 50s

Don Murray talks up Deadly Hero which looks pretty tawdry.

Martha Hyer always seemed a little cheap--like a girl from the wrong side of the tracks who couldn't quite pull off "class".

Deadly Hero was Treat Williams' first film and James Earl Jones plays a crazy

Although the plot for Deadly Hero is offbeat and provocative, the filmmakers—including hack feature/TV director Ivan Nagy—can’t pull the disparate elements together. For instance, the performances are all over the place. Murray is wildly undisciplined, going cartoonishly over the top at one moment and trying for frightening understatement the next. Williams barely registers as anything but a pleasantly sophisticated cipher. As for Jones, who’s only in the movie for about 20 minutes, he succumbs to silly flamboyance when trying to channel craziness.

Deadly Hero

With Conchata Ferrell as Slugger Ann.

R478 — You are right. Perhaps her past had something to do with it. She started as a Hollywood call girl and got “discovered” for movies. The more attractive prostitutes were often taken as dates to high-end Hollywood parties, and those who dressed well, spoke well and maybe had an interesting quality about them would be put in films (this happened to Rhonda Fleming too).

Martha’s career high point was her Oscar nomination for Supporting Actress for “Some Came Running” as the prim, attractive school teacher longing for love. She officially became respectable Hollywood royalty when she married Hal Wallis, the extraordinarily successful production exceutive and producer.

Hollywood royalty!!!!!

Wasn't Dina Merrill actually touted as the next Grace Kelly?

^ Yes, but only after Grace's death.

R482 Are you sure?

[quote] Martha Hyer was born in Fort Worth, Texas, into a wealthy family, the daughter of Julien Capers Hyer, an attorney and judge, and Agnes Rebecca (née Barnhart). She was the middle of three sisters, with Agnes Ann and Jeanne. The Hyers were active in the Methodist church, where her father was a highly respected Sunday school teacher. Hyer graduated from Arlington Heights High School and then from Northwestern University with a degree in drama. She was in the sorority Pi Beta Phi with actress Patricia Neal. She then moved to California to study at the Pasadena Playhouse, and soon after was signed to a film contract with RKO. She was married twice, first to producer C. Ray Stahl and later to producer Hal B. Wallis.

Deadly Hero also has Danny DeVito and Rutanya Alda.

Interesting R487, I'm glad that Rutanya was able to get work during this period despite her brother seemingly being unwilling to offer her a guest spot on Mash...

Rutanya in Brian De Palma's Hi, Mom!

[quote]Deadly Hero also has Danny DeVito and Rutanya Alda.

I initially read this as Danny DeVito and Rula Lenska.

[quote]Martha’s career high point

Truly it had to be...

First time I ever saw Martha Hyer was in HOUSE BOAT as The Other Woman opposite Cary Grant and Sophia

R486: The wiki summary is not inconsistent with her taking time out to be a call girl. She could have done it during her time at Pasadena Playhouse. RKO was going in the tubes and I'm sure she could have tricked during that time.

More to the point, she always had a sort of cheap glamor. She wasn't a laughably bad actress, but she wasn't a great one. I'm sure she was hired because the casting director couldn't get someone better known or more talented.

R482, where did you come up with that?

R393 She "could have done it"..."I'm sure she could have tricked"....Yeah that's very convincing.

Rhonda Fleming sang gospel songs with the Hollywood Christian Group (Jane Russell, Connie Haines, Beryl Davis)...kind of an odd thing for an ex-call girl to be interested in.

In case no one’s heard, Mr. Murray played Brooke Shields’ father in a movie.

We're talking about putative whore, Martha Hyer, not Rhonda Fleming.

R498 The poster who brought it up -- R482 -- also mentioned Rhonda Fleming.

Also in person in Deadly Hero was Blondie singing but IMDB has no soundtrack credit.

Of all the dead to me threads to have a long life....I would have NEVER predicted Don Murray!

Yes did better than Chita.

R486: There’s a lot of time and vagueness in that bio after her arrival in Hollywood and before and after her first marriage. It wasn’t easy to jump start a career with pretty new girls coming into town every week. When money was tight, there was one sure-fire way to make a buck if you were attractive and well-spoken. And it’s still true.

I recently read a very entertaining book about Polly Adler, who in the ‘20s and ‘30s was one of the most famous madams in NYC. The author had access to Adler’s extensive files which revealed that when times were tough and there were long stretches between legitimate jobs, Ruby Keeler, Dorothy Lamour and Martha Raye all worked as Polly’s girls for a time. When Adler retired and moved to LA, Raye let her live in her home until she got her own place. Many others who knew Polly from having had dealings with her in NY refused, afraid they would give themselves away. So it was not exactly an uncommon way to make ends meet.

According to the same book, when Frank Fay’s marriage to Barbara Stanwyck was on the rocks and his once-promising film career was fizzling, he visited Polly’s and as he got drank the night away, tried to get her to admit that Stanwyck was one of her girls when she was still Ruby Stevens from Brooklyn. Adler, who was protective of girls who came to her needing extra money, refused to take the bait and would neither confirm or deny since she did not want to get in the middle of a divorce action or give ammunition to the vindictive Fay. Drunk and disgusted, he finally asked for a list of all the male brothels in town and left.

with a little help from us R502

R496: Not unusual for reformed whores to over-compensate in later life. Look at Fleming’s early career, before her nosejob. One of her first roles was as a nymphomaniac at the beginning of Hitchcock’s “Spellbound,” and another early part was as a prostitute in “Out of the Past.” She was treated like a big-titted piece of ass, all within the bounds of ‘40s censorship. Her first agent was Henry Willson, who was not averse to lending members of his stable out to interested film executives, directors or producers in order to get them seen.

That she would try to cover her tracks later is no surprise.

Martha Hyer is a call girl groomed to be an actress in THE CARPETBAGGERS.

The whorishness of the entire enterprise is unending.

[quote] Yes did better than Chita.

It must be the sizemeat

R503 So the fact that she came from a wealthy family doesn't matter, she would still need to turn to prostitution to keep a roof over her head (even though she or her family had enough money to send her from Texas to Northwestern University in Evanston, IL, and she then had a scholarship to the Pasadena Playhouse). Why don't you just say where you got the info about Martha Hyer and/or Rhonda Fleming?

R506 Yes, I wondered if the poster might have been mixing up her life with her character in The Carpetbaggers.

[quote]Rhonda Fleming sang gospel songs with the Hollywood Christian Group (Jane Russell, Connie Haines, Beryl Davis)...kind of an odd thing for an ex-call girl to be interested in.

Go over to the thread on former gangbang bottom gay porn star Rocco Reed, currently a Christian minister.

R482/R503 = the ghost of Scotty Bowers.

R510 That doesn't make Rhonda Fleming a former call girl. Still haven't been shown any proof at all.

Rhonda Fleming was acting in movies when she was still going to Beverly Hills High. She was discovered crossing the street at the school at 16 or 17 by the infamous gay (future) agent, Henry Willson. He was working for David O. Selznick at the time and Selznick signed her to a 7 year contract. She was getting a regular paycheck. So why would (and when) would she have been a call girl?

The 1950s proved to be the death knell for the classic leading man in Hollywood. The explosion of sensitive leading men appearing in that decade left little or no room for the character lead, which had flourished since the '30s. The sensitive type was quickly supplanted by the anti-hero, leaving little or no room for the matinee idol who was dashing but not dangerous.

Enter Don Murray, who straddled both the dashing and the sensitive type. While not from the method school—he once joked that he was cast as the virginal sailor in The Rose Tattoo (his first major role on Broadway, in 1951) because there were no virgins at the Actors' Studio—he was AADA-trained and was poised to give '50s heartthrobs like Clift and Dean and Newman a run for their money.

I think there’s only a handful of notable actresses I’ve read that worked as actual, professional prostitutes. Jeanette McDonald. Denise Richards (one of Heidi Fleiss’ girls.) Louise Brooks, after she left Hollywood for good. Sleazy, downwardly mobile Barbara Payton, of course.

Certainly there’s others - but as a group they seemed to have kept their pasts primarily buried.

[italic]”Today, right now, I live in a rat-roach (they’re friends) infested apartment without a bean to my name and I drink too much rosé wine. I don’t like what the scale tells me. The little money I do accumulate to pay the rent comes from old residuals, poetry and favors to men. I love the Negro race and will only accept money from Negroes." [/italic] (I AM NOT ASHAMED, 1963)

And yet, R513, '56 and '57 were the only years that Murray ran with any competitive pace. He effectively took himself out of the running when he turned down his biggest opportunity, the role of Brick in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.

he was catapulted to stardom via his performance as the brazen young cowboy in Bus Stop (1956), holding his own against Marilyn Monroe and garnering an Oscar® nomination for Best Supporting Actor.

Murray would spend the next six years fulfilling his vow to solve the refugee problem while trying to be a movie star on his own terms. Despite a series of artistic triumphs (1957's The Bachelor Party and A Hatful of Rain, 1958's well-turned-out pacifist western From Hell to Texas, and a memorable role opposite James Cagney in 1959's Shake Hands With the Devil), it proved to be a tightrope act—one that soon led to a series of crossroads in his personal and professional life.

Was he scared to play a gay?

^^ re:

[quote]r515 He effectively took himself out of the running when he turned down his biggest opportunity, the role of Brick in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.

His alternative service in post-WWII Europe, particularly in Italy, where he found thousands of displaced persons living in caves and barbed-wire camps a decade after the war's end, would lead him to live a kind of double life once he was catapulted to stardom.

R512: Why wouldn’t she have been (a call girl) if she had to do that to get noticed or get roles? Do you know that according to Shirley Temple in her memoir, David O. Selznick literally chased her around his desk when she was 13 or 14, he was that desperate to get his hands on her nubile little body? He cast her in “Since You Went Away” and had her under contract too, and he was desperate to fuck her. She didn’t, of course. And her great fame as a child star gave her the leverage to say no. Most others didn’t have that privilege.

Why wouldn’t he have fucked Rhonda Fleming and ‘loaned’ her out to his film executive poker buddies in return for a role that could have gone to any number of other actresses? Contract boys and girls (but mostly girls by far) were seen as little more than currency loaned out to exhibitors, producers, directors, friends, any man with power and a stiff prick. If you said ‘no’ once too often you got dropped because there were plenty more to take your place. For every one like Marilyn Monroe who actually became a star after years of effectively being a whore — fucked and fucked over by the likes of men like John Huston, Elia Kazan, Arthur Miller and many famous others — there were scores we have never heard of. Nothing was easier to fudge than the dates on a studio bio. Did Miss Hyer or Miss Fleming have a tough eight months between contracts or jobs when they registered with a call service to pay the rent? Who needs to ever know? Not the folks at home and certainly not the press. But plenty would gossip about it once those girls were on the rise.

The scruples we have today about bodily integrity, the innocence of youth, and a woman’s right to say ‘no’ did not exist then. Movies were and are a tough, mean business, and plenty of kids were willing to do just about anything for a break. And were Hyer and Fleming such distinctive talents that they could have gotten where they did on their own skills? Where they got was the middle, with long mediocre careers in mostly poor films (though Hyer was smart enough to marry well) and to get there they traded on youthful assets.

Is there “proof”? These things happened in the ‘40s and ‘50s, and unless there are suddenly discovered private files or diaries of gossip columnists or studio publicists we’re never going to see proof. Call it gossip, oral history, whatever you like. If you work (or worked) in the business with movie people of that generation, you heard stories.

[Quote] Murray would spend the next six years fulfilling his vow to solve the refugee problem

and did he solve the problem R516?

[quote]r520 Why wouldn’t he have fucked Rhonda Fleming and ‘loaned’ her out to his film executive poker buddies in return for a role that could have gone to any number of other actresses?

Sleeping with (or being chased) by producers isn’t the same as being a call girl.

R517, the reason he gave was that he didn't want to play an alcoholic after playing a drug addict in A Hatful of Rain. Even when asked about his character in Advise and Consent, he glosses over the character being gay, stating that he thinks the character was just trying it out. He makes a lame joke that playing golf once doesn't make someone a golfer.

[Quote]The scruples we have today about bodily integrity, the innocence of youth, and a woman’s right to say ‘no’ did not exist then. Movies were and are a tough, mean business, and plenty of kids were willing to do just about anything for a break.

things haven't really changed.

Did any actors of Murray's generation (born between 1920 and 1940) ever play a gay character who wasn't a villain or a victim of tragedy? The only one I can think of who might come close is Sal Mineo.

I just thought of Brock Peters in The L-Shaped Room.

Robert Redford Inside Daisy Clover (1965)

r525, Dirk Bogarde in Victim?

George Peppard Breakfast at Tiffanys

Inside Daisy Clover: "Redford reportedly insisted that his character, gay in the original novel, have some interest in women. Warner Bros., fearful of the potential controversy, insisted that the film only acknowledge the character's bisexuality through brief and oblique lines of dialogue."

Pauline Kael in her review of Victim: "The hero of the film is a man who has never given way to his homosexual impulses; he has fought them–that's part of his heroism. Maybe that's why he seems such a stuffy stock figure of a hero... The dreadful irony involved is that Dirk Bogarde looks so pained, so anguished from the self-sacrifice of repressing his homosexuality that the film seems to give rather a black eye to heterosexual life."

It seems the UK's kitchen sink dramas of the early 60s were the first to treat homosexuality unapologetically: Brock Peters in The L-Shaped Room and Murray Melvin in A Taste of Honey. Also the French film Les Tricheurs treats homosexuality as just a routine variation among the Paris existentialists of the late 50s.

Katherine bard who plays Christopher Plummer's wife in the film screams out about Redford's penchant for young boys.

Hope Lange who eulogized Natalie is seen here on the Santa Monica Pier during the filming of Daisy Clover

[Quote] Did any actors of Murray's generation (born between 1920 and 1940) ever play a gay character who wasn't a villain or a victim of tragedy?

Rod Steiger

Some would list George Sanders in ALL ABOUT EVE and Clifton Webb in LAURA as non-tragic, non-villain homosexuals of the post-WWII era.

There’s also Webb’s Elliot Templeton in “The Razor’s Edge,” a character created by gay author Somerset Maugham. It was just on TCM last night. And what about Webb’s Mr. Belvedere in his series of movies for Fox in the ‘40s-‘50s? Clifton Webb was unusual in being a gay star hiding in plain sight and getting three Oscar nominations while he was at it.

Yes, the difference is that there was plenty of room to ascribe asexuality or celibacy to those fussbudgets. Their sexuality was kept under wraps or buried, thanks to the Hays Code. Explicitly gay characters had to go underground or overseas not to meet a terrible fate. Alan Bates in The Leather Boys is another gay character allowed to flourish in the British New Wave.

[quote]Some would list George Sanders in ALL ABOUT EVE and Clifton Webb in LAURA as non-tragic, non-villain homosexuals of the post-WWII era.

Addison DeWitt in ALL ABOUT EVE is not supposed to be gay. A major plot point is that he blackmails Eve because he wants to sleep with her. I've never really bought that plot line, but there it is

You could interpret it that way, R537, but another way of seeing it is that he merely wants to control her, have her appear on his arm everywhere he goes, etc., get the credit for her discovery and bask in her reflected glow.

The same dynamic is at work with the characters Waldo Lydecker and Laura Hunt in “Laura,” where she’s an idealized feminine version of himself, coached and ‘created’ by him, and where he grows to hate her because she’s drawn to hyper-masculine men just as he secretly is. Waldo crushes on Dana Andrews’ Mark McPherson as much as Laura does (he even gets naked in front of him).

You’ ve gotta know how to ‘read’ old movies. They couldn’t make Waldo or Addison explicitly gay without killing them off by the end.

[quote]You could interpret it that way, [R537], but another way of seeing it is that he merely wants to control her, have her appear on his arm everywhere he goes, etc., get the credit for her discovery and bask in her reflected glow.

Hmm, not really. Addison makes it pretty clear that he intends to have Eve sexually, although he does have that line, something to the effect of "Why I should want you at all, I don't know...."

[quote]You’ ve gotta know how to ‘read’ old movies. They couldn’t make Waldo or Addison explicitly gay without killing them off by the end.

I agree with you there, but I really don't think it was anyone's intention that Addison should be perceived as gay. On a related note, in the musical APPLAUSE, the character equivalent to Addison is a producer, not a theatre critic, which makes a LOT more sense in the way he treats Eve.

"That I should want you at all, suddenly strikes me as the height of improbability. But that, in itself, is probably the reason. You're an improbable person, Eve, and so am I. We have that in common."

Anyone who can't see that Addison de Witt is intended to be perceived as gay (closeted or not) is pretty dense. The cigarette holder alone should tell you something....

Okay, genius, then please explain what exactly Addison wants from Eve, and why he wants it. Or from Miss Caswell, for that matter.

r542, I believe r538 explains it perfectly if you'd just listen and open your eyes.

Eve is lesbo and Addison is gay. There's no spark of romance or sexual attraction between them. Note the scene where Eve walks arm and arm up the stairs with her roommate who makes a call claiming Eve needs help.

You could argue that although not villain-villains, both Addison and Waldo are villains of some sort, especially Waldo who meets a terrible ending.

A topic of endless debate--one theory is that "venomous fishwife" Addison is procuring for Miss Caswell and bearding mutually for Eve.

Sanders' suicide note was worthy of Addison: "Dear World, I am leaving because I am bored. I feel I have lived long enough. I am leaving you with your worries in this sweet cesspool. Good luck."

Okay, so we're supposed to believe that Addison is a gay theatre critic, and he wants Eve as his possession because -- why? Because he needs a beard? And/or just as a power play?

As I said, the whole notion of a theatre critic being involved with a famous actress is quite bizarre to begin with, and the whole relationship makes a lot more sense in APPLAUSE, where the equivalent of the Addison character is a producer, not a critic.

I do believe Eve is lesbian, OR that she will sleep with anyone of either sex if it's to her advantage in terms of her career.

R542: Addison is closeted, he takes pretty chorus girls around with him because it is expected of the straight man he is pretending to be (perhaps partly even to himself). As Roy Cohn commented: Gay men are weak and despised, I am accomplished, powerful and feared, therefore I can’t be gay.

de Witt is partly responsible for Eve’s build-up and discovery and stardom because he endlessly plugs her in his column, and shephards her around town. He gets a tremendous amount of reflected glory from her glamour and it enhances the illusion that he is all-powerful and a starmaker. But she isn’t yet a star at the point when he confronts her about her lies and manipulations. He gets her to admit she ‘belongs’ to him, but as we have had heavy hints that she’s a dyke, he was likely thinking of them as a lavender power couple.

[quote}He was likely thinking of them as a lavender power couple.

Now that makes sense to me as a possibility, but if that's what he wanted, would he really try to achieve it by bullying, degrading, and blackmailing her? Wouldn't it have been better for him to politely propose that arrangement to her?

Meanwhile, Don was fending off Tennessee's advances in the theater next door.

The middle aged never married (I assume) Addison is a bon vivant and needs an escort. He recognizes he and Eve are two of a kind.

Clifton Webb in LAURA as non-tragic, non-villain homosexuals of the post-WWII era.

Spoiler - Waldo is the killer.

[Quote] Now that makes sense to me as a possibility, but if that's what he wanted, would he really try to achieve it by bullying, degrading, and blackmailing her? Wouldn't it have been better for him to politely propose that arrangement to her?

No he uses what he knows about her as a means to control her

That ole Don Murray has me in his spell

That old Don Murray, just last week he fell

He starred in Bus Stop, and had a 9 inch dick

He married Hope Lange, and passed on playing Brick

Bravo, R554.

and now it looks like comments about Murray have hit a brick wall!

R549, I think Addison really admires Margot and respects and likes the others because he loves the theater and they are all of it (Eve loves being a star actress and will likely never return to the theater) and he’s genuinely disgusted by Eve’s disloyalty and machinations. He is hitting her where she lives in the same ruthless way she hurt people he thinks of as worthy.

Also don’t forget what really gets him mad — the fact that she thinks he is as trusting and easily fooled as they are. It infuriates him that she thinks he can be discounted and side-stepped so easily.

And I think another theme of Mankiewicz’s is that each generation here becomes more debased than the one before. Eve is evidently talented, but she will never be in Margot’s class as an actress and person. ‘Phoebe’ doesn’t seem to have any talent except for lying. Does she have the goods to earn a Sarah Siddons award (or an Oscar?) Who cares? She just wants the award and the clothes and adoration that come with them. She’s even worse than Eve because she’s even more shallow.

Hyer started out as a Grace Kelly and by the time she made Picture Monny Dead (19660 she was more like one of the Gabors. In Sime Came Running she resembles Grace and played the refined schoolteacher.

Also, Addison forces Eve to give up Lloyd not because he wants to sleep with her himself, but so Lloyd will go back to Karen, who he actually likes and respects (“Like most women she told more than she learned”).

Woah Deadly Hero killed Dian Williams' career.

Eve belongs to Addison

"We deserve each other. An inability to love and be loved."

Diahn

[quote]I think Addison really admires Margot and respects and likes the others because he loves the theater and they are all of it (Eve loves being a star actress and will likely never return to the theater) and he’s genuinely disgusted by Eve’s disloyalty and machinations.

So you think Addison is disgusted by Eve's behavior but he still wants to own her and control her -- in a non-sexual way? Sorry, I just don't get it, but it WOULD all make sense if he wanted to own her sexually.

To some people, power and manipulation of others IS sex. It has a greater charge and is a bigger kick than sex. And a lot of such people are in show business.

Another failed series attempt by Don after he tried with Barbara Eden. This time his costar was Lucie Arnaz. 13 episodes.

[Quote] Sorry, I just don't get it

that's obvious.

I don't think this has been seen on the thread before. I could be wrong but hope lange not.

[quote]To some people, power and manipulation of others IS sex. It has a greater charge and is a bigger kick than sex. And a lot of such people are in show business.

Okay, but again, all of THAT would make more sense if Addison were a producer or maybe a director, rather than a theatre critic. I think they should have been two separate characters in the movie: the acid-penned theatre critic and the producer or director who lusts after Eve and wants her as a possession.

Addison de Witt is a critic and columnist who is syndicated to hundreds of thousands (maybe millions ) of newspaper readers. He is Walter Winchell and Hedda Hopper combined. So he has more power and influence than any producer.

This was during the analog era when there were many hundreds of newspapers published in the U.S. and most people read more than one of them a day. That was power back then.

No man would lust after that ice queen Eve.

Monroe was nominated for a Golden Globe in the comedy/musical category, but the GG went to Deborah Kerr who was nominated for the Oscar along with Nancy Kelly (The Bad Seed), Carroll Baker (Baby Doll), Katherine Hepburn (The Rainmaker) and winner Ingrid Bergman for Anastasia

R569, I'm not questioning Addison's power, I'm wondering whether a theatre critic would ever want to be known as the boyfriend or husband of a famous theatre actress. Can we think of any examples of that in real life? I mean, some people even frown on such relationships between a producer or director and an actor or actress.

George Jean Nathan (who is referenced in “All About Eve”) had a long-running affair with Lillian Gish, who he wanted to marry. She turned him down and he wound up marrying Julie Haydon (“The Glass Menagerie”) shortly before he died.

I would think many straight male critics of the time would have been glad to have it known they were fucking a famous actress who was also considered talented. So how much better to be gay and have people assume you are sleeping with the dyke star who is always on your arm?

I always assumed that if All About Eve ran five minutes longer we'd see Eve face first in Phoebe's muff...

Yes, R574. that certainly would have happened in a movie made in1950.

[Quote] I always assumed that if All About Eve ran five minutes longer we'd see Eve face first in Phoebe's muff...

or more likely the other way around

Another obscure film starring and written by Don Murray

(^.^) Tagline 'Tale of the Cock - a love story as real as now

Linda Evans barely recognizable pre facial reconstruction

Who'd have thought that a thread about Don Murray would max out, or at least come close to it? Will a Part 2 be required?

sure, R579 as long as people want to talk about Martha Hyer, Hope Lange, Cliff Robertson, Addison De Witt and Eve Harrington, Paul Newman, Robert Wagnerand . . .

From someone who focused on films as moral lessons, Murray's late 60s stuff looks like plain ol' exploitation.

[Quote] Okay, so we're supposed to believe that Addison is a gay theatre critic, and he wants Eve as his possession because -- why? Because he needs a beard? And/or just as a power play?

sounds plausible to me R547

[quote] I do believe Eve is lesbian, OR that she will sleep with anyone of either sex if it's to her advantage in terms of her career.

That doesn't make her a lesbian, that makes her an actress.

[quote]R557 Phoebe’ doesn’t seem to have any talent except for lying. Does she have the goods to earn a Sarah Siddons award (or an Oscar?)

I don’t know that one can gauge an artist’s talent from witnessing one late-night conversation.

It’s very sad that Barbara Bates eventually killed herself. She never arrived at the stardom that often seemed quite close. Danny Kaye’s wife had her cut out of most of their film together - I don’t know if she suspected they were having an affair, or wanted Kaye to get more focus.

Robert Wagner, Barbara Bates and Marilyn all appeared in this film early in their careers

[quote]It’s very sad that Barbara Bates eventually killed herself. She never arrived at the stardom that often seemed quite close. Danny Kaye’s wife had her cut out of most of their film together - I don’t know if she suspected they were having an affair, or wanted Kaye to get more focus.

Is it at all likely that Danny Kaye was having an affair with a woman?

from IMDB Bio of Barbara Bates

Succumbing to extreme mood shifts, insecurity, ill health and chronic depression to the point of being taken off important film assignments. By age 30, the promise she had once shown was no longer considered, and she and her husband Coen, who made all of Barbara's decisions for her, tried to salvage her career in England.

Nothing was heard of Barbara until her March 1969 death. It was learned she'd returned to her hometown of Denver and worked in various jobs, including stints as a secretary, dental assistant and hospital aide. Her much older husband and chief supporter, Cecil Coan, died of cancer in January 1967, and Barbara fell apart.

Although she remarried in December of 1968 to a childhood friend, sportscaster William Reed, she remained increasingly despondent. She committed suicide just 4 months later. She was found dead in her car by her mother in her mother's garage of carbon monoxide poisoning.

Interestingly, the one role she'll always be identified with is also one of the smallest parts given her during her brief tenure as leading lady.

In the very last scene of All About Eve (1950). Barbara turns up in the role of Phoebe, a devious school girl and wannabe actress who shows startling promise as a future schemer along the lines of her equally ruthless idol, Eve Harrington, superbly played by Anne Baxter.

Barbara's image is enshrined in the picture's very last scene - posing in front of a 3-way mirror while clutching Baxter's just-received acting award. It's this brief, moment for which she'll best be remembered. - IMDb Mini Biography By: Gary Brumburgh / gr-home@pacbell.net (updated by U.N. Owen

Barbara, PLEASE! PLEASE Barbara!

Don's included in a feature covering (uncovering?) male stars' towel scenes.

Jim Brown is so hot on photo 36/48 as is Joe Namath 37/48 but 38 with Gary Coleman is disturbing

Cliff grabs a towel @ 1:00

R586 Didn't he have one with Eve Arden? And Shirley MacLaine talked about having an affair with him.

Addison wasn't gay. What do you think he was doing with Claudia Casswell (Marilyn MOnroe), playing chess?

No R593 it was for playing the man on the town, the well-known and influential critic. It was for show and publicity! Ever hear of Rock Hudson a 50s icon?

[quote]Is it at all likely that Danny Kaye was having an affair with a woman?

Not as long as I was around!

R592 - Gwen Verdon said she did too.

Don in tight jeans...

More Don

WEHT Eddie Cibrian (from the Men in Towels link)?

Thanks, everyone, for filling my thread!