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Meet Me In St. Louis is PROBLEMATIC

Let's talk about...

Agnes threatening to stab Katie to death and then have her ripped apart while wild horses drag her body. All for a cat.

Tootie being a compulsive liar and sociopath. Lying about Mr. Braukoff beating his wife, killing cats, and bootlegging liquor. Also, making a stuffed human doll and putting it on a train track, hoping the train would derail. Not to mention her obsession with dead dolls and dead bodies.

Rose being completely hard up for men, and throwing herself at Colonel Darly, who was at least 30 years older than her.

Lon taking his sister to a dance.

Esther singing about loving "the boy next door," before she even met him.

Katie's obvious lesbianism, which no one dared talk about.

Grandpa being a deadbeat freeloader, and doing nothing all day, while making his son feel guilty for wanting to take a promotion in New York.

Lon Sr. regretting not moving to New York, because in 50 years St. Louis would experience "white flight," and the city would be over-ridden with crime and violence.

The Blackamoor statue in the living room.

The only thing missing from this awful movie, was an illicit homosexual encounter between Lon Jr. and John Truitt in the boy's locker room at school!

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by Anonymousreply 200January 21, 2024 4:21 PM

I love the Blackamoor Statue!

Where did the Smith family buy it?

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by Anonymousreply 1December 25, 2023 7:07 AM

Exactly why I love it!

by Anonymousreply 2December 25, 2023 7:08 AM

Lon was clearly lusting after John Truitt.

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by Anonymousreply 3December 25, 2023 7:08 AM

Are those Garden Gnomes in John Truitt's front yard?

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by Anonymousreply 4December 25, 2023 7:13 AM

It's a Louis B. Mayer joint. Of course it's problematic.

by Anonymousreply 5December 25, 2023 7:19 AM

What does that mean, R5?

by Anonymousreply 6December 25, 2023 1:24 PM

Esther daring not to wear a hat in public and riding on the trolley, at that! Hussy!!!

by Anonymousreply 7December 25, 2023 1:31 PM

[quote] illicit homosexual encounter between Lon Jr. and John Truitt in the boy's locker room at school

Tell me more. In my fantasies, Papa walks in and watches.....

by Anonymousreply 8December 25, 2023 1:33 PM

Too bad Frank Gumm was dead, he would have enjoyed visiting the set for that.

by Anonymousreply 9December 25, 2023 3:33 PM

Tootie wasn't nearly as cute as everyone says she was.

I found her very annoying.

by Anonymousreply 10December 25, 2023 4:10 PM

Why do they always play this movie at Christmas?

by Anonymousreply 11December 25, 2023 4:40 PM

It’s my favorite movie. I watch it every year.

by Anonymousreply 12December 25, 2023 4:46 PM

The Smith residence at 5135 Kensington Avenue was torn down about 30 years ago.

As depicted in the movie, the house is rather large and sits on a large lot.

In actuality, the houses in this neighborhood were large but compact and featured rather small front/rear yards and hardly any side yards, being built very close to one another. Houses like the one depicted in the movie were more prevalent further out in the West End, particularly along Cabanne Place.

by Anonymousreply 13December 25, 2023 4:57 PM

r11 didn't have herself a very merry Christmas.

by Anonymousreply 14December 25, 2023 5:00 PM

R11 Because it has a Christmas sequence in it, and has the song, Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas, in it.

by Anonymousreply 15December 25, 2023 5:00 PM

Because it features one of the best-loved Christmas songs ever performed onscreen, r11.

I fondly remember an earlier DL thread on this movie that had dozens of posts controversially discussing the pretty piece of crocheted headwear that Judy as Esther removes as she sings the song. It was mistakenly identified as a snood and as a fascinator but I can't remember what the conclusion was.

by Anonymousreply 16December 25, 2023 5:01 PM

[quote] earlier DL thread on this movie that had dozens of posts controversially discussing the pretty piece of crocheted headwear that Judy as Esther removes as she sings the song

It was a tablecloth.

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by Anonymousreply 17December 25, 2023 5:04 PM

It's a crocheted head scarf.

by Anonymousreply 18December 25, 2023 5:18 PM

The angora wool in that head scarf drove me craaaaazy!!!

by Anonymousreply 19December 26, 2023 1:15 AM

I heard that the guy who played John Truitt was gay in real life.

Is that truth or fiction?

by Anonymousreply 20December 26, 2023 1:20 AM

R20 True.

it is perhaps, the Greatest film ever made, certainly the best Christmas film. I just got a new beautiful copy, and watching it over these holidays was like rediscovering a beautiful, lost friend. I adore the film so fucking bloody much.

by Anonymousreply 21December 26, 2023 1:25 AM

I loathe Margaret O’Brien, especially in this.

by Anonymousreply 22December 26, 2023 3:23 AM

And how many times did multiple family members taste the ketchup (catsup) and stick that used spoon back in the same pot

by Anonymousreply 23December 26, 2023 3:37 AM

Lon and John were throat fucking each other on the regular.

by Anonymousreply 24December 26, 2023 3:43 AM

I was DRUNK last night , dear mother!!!!

by Anonymousreply 25December 26, 2023 3:48 AM

r23 Needs salt.

by Anonymousreply 26December 26, 2023 4:04 AM

Everybody's WHITE!

by Anonymousreply 27December 26, 2023 4:26 AM

Lucille Bremer and Kirk Douglas were both from Amsterdam, NY, born two months apart. Wonder if they went to school together?

by Anonymousreply 28December 26, 2023 4:49 AM

[quote] Everybody's WHITE!

[quote] —Jada

Not the Blackamoor Statue!

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by Anonymousreply 29December 26, 2023 4:52 AM

Margaret O'Brien is half Spanish, does that count?

by Anonymousreply 30December 26, 2023 4:54 AM

One biography claimed Garland tried to bed Tom Drake, but he couldn’t perform because “The Boy Next Door” also liked boys.

Garland took this as rejection and shut him out after that.

by Anonymousreply 31December 26, 2023 4:56 AM

Tom Drake was born Alfred Sinclair Alderdice.

Lol.

He died young at 64.

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by Anonymousreply 32December 26, 2023 4:59 AM

An article from 1945 about Tom Drake and his wife. It mentions that Tom is a "good friend" of Henry WIllson.

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by Anonymousreply 33December 26, 2023 5:00 AM

I was molested on Christmas Eve!

by Anonymousreply 34December 26, 2023 5:02 AM

[quote] it is perhaps, the Greatest film ever made, certainly the best Christmas film.

***AHEM***

by Anonymousreply 35December 26, 2023 5:11 AM

Tom Drake and Judy were good friends.

by Anonymousreply 36December 26, 2023 5:59 AM

'59

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by Anonymousreply 37December 26, 2023 6:10 AM

I didn't find John Truitt to be very good looking in the movie.

Lon Jr. was the real cute one.

However, Tom Drake does look good in this photo.

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by Anonymousreply 38December 26, 2023 1:27 PM

R21 = Rufus Wainwright

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by Anonymousreply 39December 26, 2023 1:33 PM

It's imperfect, but you can see (and perhaps feel) how much Vincent Minelli loved Judy from how he put together this film.

by Anonymousreply 40December 26, 2023 1:36 PM

[quote] He died young at 64.

Hold my beer.

by Anonymousreply 41December 26, 2023 1:53 PM

Margaret O’Brien is adorable in this.

by Anonymousreply 42December 26, 2023 1:56 PM

Katie had it coming. Agnes was only responding to Katie gleefully telling her she kicked the cat downstairs and its spine hit every step on the way down or something like that. THAT was twisted!

I think the weirdest thing about this movie is that Esther and Rose heat up water on the stove to wash their hair when their house has a bathroom with running water.

by Anonymousreply 43December 26, 2023 2:03 PM

Van Johnson was supposed to be The Boy Next Door, but I don't remember why he was taken off the film.

So odd this is Judy's first Technicolor film since OZ (I'm not counting her guest spot in "As Thousands Cheer", probably her weakest performance on film - wearing a hideous crocheted vest with pom poms and belting a really weak song with Jose Iturbi at the piano.)

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by Anonymousreply 44December 26, 2023 2:07 PM

Running water, but not hot running water.

by Anonymousreply 45December 26, 2023 2:07 PM

Grandpa was taking a shower at some point in the movie.

by Anonymousreply 46December 26, 2023 2:10 PM

It's odd that MGM, so famous for its lavish musicals, didn't really develop the career of a handsome young male singing star between Nelson Eddy in the 30s and Howard Keel in the 50s. Tony Martin maybe came closest to that type though I don't think he did much for them after Ziegfeld Girl in 1940. Peter Lawford looked good but couldn't really sing. I suppose Frank Sinatra sort of qualified but he usually played the sidekick. Obviously, Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire sang a lot in their films but their strengths were dancing.

by Anonymousreply 47December 26, 2023 2:29 PM

Ummm there was a war on, R47. I think that's also why Johnson couldn't do the film, but that's an educated guess.

by Anonymousreply 48December 26, 2023 2:31 PM

There wasn't a war on between 1946 and 1950. which some would say were the height of the MGM musical's years..

I think Johnson was exempt from WWII service for some health reasons but he wasn't really a singer, anyway. I meant more like a young handsome guy that could truly match Judy vocally, but it seems LB Mayer just wasn't interested in that type or perhaps simply thought Judy didn't need a singing peer.

by Anonymousreply 49December 26, 2023 2:51 PM

The bathroom sink had two separate faucets, i.e., they had hot water.

by Anonymousreply 50December 26, 2023 3:34 PM

R47 I think they tried, but there really aren't/weren't that many people who can carry a musical in a lead role as one would think. Look at when Judy left MGM. There were hardly any women who could carry a musical film themselves, as she could. (Jane Powell - but her movies were a little more teen-oriented. And Esther Williams, who was a swimmer.) Doris Day could, at Warner Bros. But it was somewhat rare.

MGM tries using Johnnie Johnston as a lead, once or twice, they also signed Perry Como, but then something happened there (kind of vague, about him insulting Mayer. Supposedly Sinatra was also let go for a remark about Mayer and Ginny Simms). But I would say Sinatra was MGM male singing star of that period. He did sometimes play solo lead (The Kissing Bandit, It Happened In Brooklyn).

Van Johnson got in a bad car accident, and had a plate put in his head, making him exempt from service. (That's why he had that scar on his forehead.)

He had originally (before fame hit) declared himself homosexual and was exempt, but then he and MGM tried to get out of that, with the feds, behind the scenes (these documents have since come to light). They didn't want that news to get out - so Van tried to say he was straight now, and to get into the service - then the accident happened. Afaik.

by Anonymousreply 51December 26, 2023 3:48 PM

Posts like R53 is what makes the cuntiness and hate here worth enduring.

by Anonymousreply 52December 26, 2023 3:55 PM

My mom told me she had a big crush on Tom Drake when she was a teenager, btw.

by Anonymousreply 53December 26, 2023 4:12 PM

This heteronormative film, celebrated primarily by cis white men, completely fails to center the Queer/Trans/BIPOC experience. Nor does it reflect the beautiful and vibrant diversity of St Louis, Missouri. The songs utilize a Eurocentric vernacular and emphasize treacly fantasy, averting their gaze from the horrific results of the white supremacy they extol.

#oscarssowhite #endwhitesupremacy

by Anonymousreply 54December 26, 2023 4:13 PM

Overplayed, R54. Chew more scenery to make it funny.

by Anonymousreply 55December 26, 2023 4:15 PM

MGM tried to get Betty Hutton from Paramount after Annie Get Your Gun, because they needed a woman star who could carry a musical, with Judy faltering. They tried to put June Allyson into some musicals, like Royal Wedding, but she got pregnant at the time.

by Anonymousreply 56December 26, 2023 4:26 PM

Fred Astaire, the famous *dancer*, introduced more song standards than anyone else, including Bing Crosby.

by Anonymousreply 57December 26, 2023 4:26 PM

If only it were still 2017, r54, so that would still be funny.

Update your material.

by Anonymousreply 58December 26, 2023 4:27 PM

Margaret O'Brien was always adorable...it was a problem.

by Anonymousreply 59December 26, 2023 4:30 PM

R54 is just as valid today. Probably more so.

by Anonymousreply 60December 26, 2023 4:42 PM

R21 go touch grass

by Anonymousreply 61December 26, 2023 4:55 PM

Let's not forget Miss Mary Astor who was wasted but still delightful as Mama.

by Anonymousreply 62December 26, 2023 5:16 PM

Down in the jungles lived a maid Of royal blood though dusky shade

by Anonymousreply 63December 26, 2023 5:19 PM

r48: Ummm, I could not find any evidence that the war was the reason Van Johnson withdrew from the film.

Interesting tidbits from the web:

Gil Stratton, who had appeared in Girl Crazy, was originally cast as Judy Garland’s love interest. However, his service in the United States Army Air Corps kept him from the role. Van Johnson then accepted the role, only to drop out later (though he starred beside Garland later in In the Good Old Summertime). Robert Walker was considered, but Tom Drake got the part.

New York Times: HOLLYWOOD, Calif., April 22 1943 — Van Johnson, who was recently injured in an automobile accident and is expected to return to Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer within two weeks to complete his role in "A Guy Named Joe," will play the lead in "Meet Me in St. Louis," with Judy Garland.

From the AFI catalogue:

According to the Hollywood Reporter (HR), Paramount Pictures competed with M-G-M for the screen rights to Benson's popular stories. William Ludwig, and Victor Heerman and Sarah Y. Mason, who won Academy Awards for their 1933 version of Little Women, also worked on early drafts of the script, which, according to modern sources, included a kidnapping/blackmail plot line. Modern sources also note that while producer Arthur Freed was particularly anxious to make the film, Judy Garland, who was reluctant to return to teenage parts after successful appearances in adult roles in For Me and My Gal and Presenting Lily Mars, had to be persuaded by studio head Louis B. Mayer. George Cukor, who directed the 1933 version of Little Women, was first hired to direct the picture, according to modern sources, but bowed out after he was drafted into the Army. In Sep 1943, HR announced that Van Johnson had been cast in the lead male role. Robert Walker was also mentioned in news items as a cast member, and Gloria De Haven is listed in both news items and HR production charts as a cast member, but neither performer appeared in the final film. Lucille Bremer, a former New York nightclub singer, and Henry H. Daniels, Jr., a former tennis star, made their screen acting debuts in the film. Ruthe Brady , Tommy Batten, Wells Wohlwend, Joyce Tucker, Mickey Roth and Pamela Britton are listed as cast members in HR news items, but their participation in the final film has not been confirmed. According to HR new items, Freed "returned" to his former career as a songwriter to write the lyrics for "You and I" with his frequent collaborator, Nacio Herb Brown. "Boys and Girls Like You and Me," a song that was dropped from the 1942 Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein II musical Oklahoma, was shot for Meet Me in St. Louis, but cut from the final film. According to modern sources, the song, which was sung by Garland after the trolley scene, was removed at the insistence of Freed, who felt that it slowed the story. Meet Me in St. Louis was the first film on which Lemuel Ayers, who was the set designer on the Broadway production of Oklahoma, worked as an art director. Modern sources add the following information about the production: Although M-G-M wanted to use its "Hardy family" street set for the film, art director Jack Martin Smith and director Vincente Minnelli convinced the studio to build an entirely new set, which cost a significant $208,275. Most of the fair set was shot with miniatures, including two bisons sculpted by Henry Greutart. Principal photography went over schedule partially because of the many illnesses of the cast, as well as Garland's frequent absences and lateness. Lela Simone, a former recording pianist at M-G-M, worked as a music sound cutter on the film, and Dottie Ponedel was assigned as Garland's personal makeup artist. Ponedel, who changed Garland's onscreen look for the picture, became her regular makeup artist for the remainder of her career at M-G-M. The final cost of the picture was over $1,500,000. During its initial release, it grossed $7,566,000.

by Anonymousreply 64December 26, 2023 5:21 PM

[quote][R54] is just as valid today. Probably more so.

Well, possibly. But the point is, it's no longer funny. It's become very tired.

by Anonymousreply 65December 26, 2023 5:22 PM

The excellent r51 gave us our answer, r64.

by Anonymousreply 66December 26, 2023 5:23 PM

r66: I was just about to thank r51 for that! Much appreciated! And thank YOU! ;-) Always nice to be alerted.

by Anonymousreply 67December 26, 2023 5:27 PM

Thanks, you guys. Besides, after making A Guy Named Joe (1943) Van was too big a star to play John Truitt.

by Anonymousreply 68December 26, 2023 5:29 PM

A lovely film but I've seen it so many times I don't think I could sit through it again.

Tom Drake who seems to have been groomed to be a major star by MGM like Van Johnson never really took off and became an alcoholic. He is the star of a film called The Green Years which I highly recommend. Dean Stockwell(who said once he never even saw it) plays him as a boy. I guess it wasn't a hit because I had never heard of it until I ran across it on TCM. It does get the MGM big budget treatment but it seems to have died and been forgotten. It also has Hume and Jessica in it. It was Drake's chance to hit it out of the park but his initial success did not translate into leading roles. He is a very handsome Richard Rodgers in Words and Music but Mickey Rooney is too busy chewing the scenery for anyone to notice Drake.

by Anonymousreply 69December 26, 2023 5:30 PM

The Green Years was the movie MGM showed Evelyn Waugh when he visited the studio at the time they wanted to make a movie of Brideshead Revisited. Reportedly he wasn't impressed, and I guess the studio wasn't really able to get around certain things in the book (not surprisingly). The visit to Hollywood did lead to Waugh writing The Loved One, though.

by Anonymousreply 70December 26, 2023 5:39 PM

[quote]Grandpa was taking a shower at some point in the movie.

Yes, I know. I was helping him.

by Anonymousreply 71December 26, 2023 5:40 PM

r52 can predict the future!

by Anonymousreply 72December 26, 2023 5:40 PM

[quote]Vincent Minelli

Two words, and you got them both wrong. Brava!

by Anonymousreply 73December 26, 2023 5:41 PM
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by Anonymousreply 74December 26, 2023 5:42 PM

Whatever makes you feel better, dear. I'm buzzed on homemade eggnog on my sofa and very happy about it, so fixing my phones autocorrect isn't a priority.. You do you, r73.

by Anonymousreply 75December 26, 2023 5:43 PM

Dear Judy at her best -looking beautiful, singing and acting marvelously . Unrivaled .

by Anonymousreply 76December 26, 2023 5:47 PM

Eat Me In St. Louis

by Anonymousreply 77December 26, 2023 5:51 PM

Darryl Hickman played one of the kids in the Halloween scene. This is a good interview with him (not about St. Louis but about Minnelli directing Tea And Sympathy).

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by Anonymousreply 78December 26, 2023 6:00 PM

That article quoted by R64 is interesting and shows how misleading press handouts were. Lucille Bremer was not a nightclub singer, she couldn’t sing a note. She may have been a nightclub dancer and perhaps that’s where Arthur Freed saw her. The fact that she became his girlfriend and “protégée” is the whole reason she came to MGM at all.

Her debut in “Meet Me in St. Louis” was considered a success, though even there, her cold, snooty screen presence is evident. She was a really skillful dancer, so she very successfully partnered Fred Astaire in two of the best numbers in “Ziegfeld Follies.” This caused her to get the coveted lead in “Yolanda and the Thief.” Coveted until everyone got a look at it. Director Vincente Minnelli, who quite liked Bremer, was given cart blanche to make a dull, overstuffed and precious musical with only one good number. Judy Garland, who had once wanted the lead in that film herself, filed past Arthur Freed after the catastophic preview and trenchantly commented, “Don’t worry too much, Arthur, Riverside is just not Lucille’s town.” Meow.

Miss Bremer’s career was on a fast track to nowhere after that debacle, her shortcomings as a screen presence only too evident to all.

by Anonymousreply 79December 26, 2023 6:11 PM

r79: Thank you for that. Ann Miller is reported to have (privately) described Bremer as "Arthur Freed's pussy".

"George Cukor, who directed the 1933 version of Little Women, was first hired to direct the picture, according to modern sources, but bowed out after he was drafted into the Army" - that would have been a very interesting film.

by Anonymousreply 80December 26, 2023 6:19 PM

Vic Damone was another MGM young leading man singer, though he was a little too young at the time (early mid-50s) and never went anywhere as a movie star.

by Anonymousreply 81December 26, 2023 6:24 PM

Wow! No one thinks these lyrics are problematic?

ESTHER*

Down in the jungles lived a maid

Of royal blood though dusky shade

*TOOTIE*

A marked impression once she made

Upon a Zulu

*ESTHER*

From Matabooloo

by Anonymousreply 82December 26, 2023 6:32 PM

Have to mention that it's nice that June Lockhart is still with us.

by Anonymousreply 83December 26, 2023 6:33 PM

R82 This was written in 1902 but we are still using our smelling salts when we watch the movie.

by Anonymousreply 84December 26, 2023 6:39 PM

[quote]Have to mention that it's nice that June Lockhart is still with us.

...so to speak.

by Anonymousreply 85December 26, 2023 6:41 PM

And June plays the adult Liz Taylor in The White Cliffs of Dover.

by Anonymousreply 86December 26, 2023 6:44 PM

Darryl certainly has one of the all time great movie death scenes in Leave Her to Heaven.

by Anonymousreply 87December 26, 2023 6:49 PM

[quote]Whatever makes you feel better, dear. I'm buzzed on homemade eggnog on my sofa and very happy about it, so fixing my phones autocorrect isn't a priority.. You do you, [R73].

If your phone autocorrects a word to "Minelli," you need a new phone. Or at least a gay one.

by Anonymousreply 88December 26, 2023 6:58 PM

June Lockhart yes.

June Allyson....I didn't appreciate her bladder pads on the nightstand!

by Anonymousreply 89December 26, 2023 6:59 PM

Fun fact: I played Mr. Dodge in my high school production of Meet Me in St. Louis.

Funner fact: I’m black. So I’m sure this colorblind casting would have set Datalounge off into a tizzy.

by Anonymousreply 90December 26, 2023 7:05 PM

[quote] Let's not forget Miss Mary Astor who was wasted but still delightful as Mama.

WHAT??

Please tell us more.

She seemed like the only normal and grounded person in the movie.

Was she higher than Judy?

by Anonymousreply 91December 26, 2023 7:08 PM

Irene Sharaff especially liked Mary Astor.

wink wink

by Anonymousreply 92December 26, 2023 7:10 PM

I really hated how Rose Smith would always insert French into her conversation.

"She's such a belle enfant." Speaking to Colonel Darly about Tootie.

"Oh Esther, have you seen Mr. Truitt's chapeau?" When John Truitt asks for his hat.

She was so annoying!!

by Anonymousreply 93December 26, 2023 7:10 PM

Wasn't Van a tad too 'mature' to play the boy next door.

by Anonymousreply 94December 26, 2023 7:22 PM

🎶 "the boy, next door.....looks fifty four....." 🎶

by Anonymousreply 95December 26, 2023 7:24 PM

[quote] Because it features one of the best-loved Christmas songs ever performed onscreen,

Yes and it really hit EXTRA hard when released, something people remembered for decades after seeing it. At the time, late 1944, that was the high point of American engagement in WWII, and millions of young men were away.

The bittersweet song about being separated from loved ones for Christmas couldn’t have resonated more.

by Anonymousreply 96December 26, 2023 7:28 PM

I love Lucille Bremer. Her two numbers in Ziegfeld Follies and Coffee Time are the among best musical numbers on film. A fabulous and very beautiful dancer.

by Anonymousreply 97December 26, 2023 7:32 PM

I watched this movie a couple of weeks ago. I feel that it has way too much going on within its storylines for it to be a coherent movie. I had watched it twice when it was on HBO Max, both times it made absolutely no sense. But the third time was the charm and figured out what was going on. I feel gipped when the end scene when the World’s Fair starts they don’t really show anything of the fair. Just them walking around. I don’t think it’s the greatest movie, but it is very cute and wholesome in that nauseating, heteronormative way.

by Anonymousreply 98December 26, 2023 7:50 PM

BIG MISTAKE staying in St. Louis, versus moving to New York City.

HUGE!

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by Anonymousreply 99December 26, 2023 7:54 PM

R99 in 2023 not so much. NYC isn’t great by a loooing shot anymore

by Anonymousreply 100December 26, 2023 8:13 PM

[quote] I feel that it has way too much going on within its storylines for it to be a coherent movie

The is sarcasm.....right?

by Anonymousreply 101December 26, 2023 8:37 PM

I was surprisingly impressed with the stage adaptation.

by Anonymousreply 102December 26, 2023 10:56 PM

The TV version from 1960 was excellent. Jane Powell (Esther), Tab Hunter (John Truitt), Jeanne Crain (Rose), Walter Pidgeon (Mr. Smith), Myrna Loy (Mrs. Smith), Patty Duke (Tootie), Ed Wynn (Grandpa), Lois Nettleton (Lucille Ballard), Reta Shaw (Katie, the maid).

The original was live and in color - it exists in a B&W kinescope on YouTube. I was skeptical, but I loved it. Powell, Crain, and the parents were older, but it worked. Jane Powell was great, her singing, dancing and acting. There were more songs than in the movie - old songs from the time period.

I probably would have substituted Mary Wickes for Reta Shaw but other than that it was perfectly cast.

by Anonymousreply 103December 27, 2023 1:06 AM

It's a bit...dark.

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by Anonymousreply 104December 27, 2023 2:13 AM

A perfect film.

by Anonymousreply 105December 27, 2023 2:23 AM

[quote] I had watched it twice when it was on HBO Max, both times it made absolutely no sense.

I suggest you never attempt to watch Murder on the Orient Express.

by Anonymousreply 106December 27, 2023 2:37 AM

Imagine, it took three tries to understand the plot of an MGM musical.

by Anonymousreply 107December 27, 2023 2:41 AM

Is there a remake planned? I'd be PERFECT for Tootie.

by Anonymousreply 108December 27, 2023 2:43 AM

R91 Mary Astor had a colorful past. There was her famous “Blue Diary” where she wrote of her illicit sexual relationship with playwright George Kauffman. … She had terrible struggles with alcohol for years. In her autobiography she recounts how much discipline she had to use to control her drinking during the 1950s when she did a lot of live television plays. She was extremely Catholic.

by Anonymousreply 109December 27, 2023 3:03 AM

Thank you R109, that's a great story.

It's amazing how many of these classic actors and actresses had drinking and drug problems.

You never would have guessed, based on their performances.

They really kept it together.

by Anonymousreply 110December 27, 2023 3:11 AM

[quote] Is there a remake planned? I'd be PERFECT for Tootie.

Sorry Cathy, I'm already talking to producers!

by Anonymousreply 111December 27, 2023 3:13 AM

Mary Astor did a TV version of Sunset Boulevard in the '50s, with Darren McGavin and Gloria De Haven. (on Robert Montgomery Presents.)

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by Anonymousreply 112December 27, 2023 3:17 AM

When Katie tastes the ketchup she has a strand of hair in her face.

by Anonymousreply 113January 2, 2024 8:42 AM

Don't like Judy's Korean wig.

by Anonymousreply 114January 2, 2024 8:43 AM

I’m sorry, but when the titular song has “coochie” in the lyrics, the filth and vulgarity through the film should be expected.

by Anonymousreply 115January 2, 2024 9:24 AM

That wig got around (2:30)

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by Anonymousreply 116January 2, 2024 4:29 PM

Meet Me In Bed In Five Minutes

by Anonymousreply 117January 2, 2024 5:48 PM

What is wrong with you bitches? It's a marvelous movie. Shut up.

by Anonymousreply 118January 2, 2024 8:38 PM

You would think there would be one person who refused to join in their stupid dances at the party.

by Anonymousreply 119January 2, 2024 8:41 PM

There was a time when people liked to dance at parties incredible as that seems now.

by Anonymousreply 120January 2, 2024 10:39 PM

My Dad recalled as a little boy in London during the war, a letter his mom received from her mom in Canada saying she had been to see Meet me in St Louis and highly recommending that she see it when the war was over.

by Anonymousreply 121January 2, 2024 10:45 PM

Margaret O'Brien is like the untalented child of a producer the film has forced upon it.

by Anonymousreply 122January 2, 2024 10:57 PM

[quote]Agnes was only responding to Katie gleefully telling her she kicked the cat downstairs and its spine hit every step on the way down or something like that. THAT was twisted!

Agnes wanted a hunting knife for Christmas. She was probably planning to go all Michael Myers on Rose, except Tootie's backyard histrionics ruined her plan.

It's not a perfect movie, but it has a charm & loveliness & it really does capture Judy at her most beautiful.

by Anonymousreply 123January 2, 2024 11:14 PM

R122. Margaret O’Brien was the best thing about it—and it’s a great film.

by Anonymousreply 124January 3, 2024 12:06 AM

R124 is Margaret O'Brian 's grandchild or great-grandchild.

by Anonymousreply 125January 3, 2024 12:11 AM

I honestly think that Agnes was a psychopath, and Tootie was a sociopath.

How did that happen?

The oldest three kids all seem normal. Although Rose is a bit of a slut.

by Anonymousreply 126January 3, 2024 1:20 AM

I would like to see Katie get flour in the face. She would not take it lightly. You varmint!

by Anonymousreply 127January 3, 2024 1:25 AM

How did Agnes even come up with the idea of stabbing Katie to death, and then having her dragged behind wild horses, until she's torn to pieces?

I mean.... c'mon. What is she, 12? 13?

Alonso and Anna should have had her committed to an asylum.

by Anonymousreply 128January 3, 2024 1:29 AM

Joan Carroll reminds me of Peggy Ann Garner.

by Anonymousreply 129January 3, 2024 1:31 AM

The behavior of the children indicates their father was…shall we say…over-attentive?

by Anonymousreply 130January 3, 2024 4:04 AM

[quote] The behavior of the children indicates their father was…shall we say…over-attentive?

Nah. Alonso was too busy with work.

He couldn't be bothered with the kids.

I think it was Grandpa. He did nothing all day.

Well, except.... you know.

by Anonymousreply 131January 3, 2024 4:20 AM

Why is Mary Astor doing this garbage?

by Anonymousreply 132January 3, 2024 4:34 AM

[quote]Nah. Alonso was too busy with work.

That's one of things I like about this movie: where's Tootie? who the hell knows, probably off on the ice truck with that creepy guy - but hey, at least she's out of our hair. Likewise, Agnes went swimming and I guess she'll come back - or not. The parents are the kind of old school parents largely indifferent to the antics of their kids so long as they weren't too annoying.

I personally liked Grandpa. How could you not love an old guy with such an awesome hat collection?

by Anonymousreply 133January 3, 2024 10:50 AM

I believe after Mary Astor's salacious diaries were exposed at that infamous George S Kaufman adultery trial in 1936, her career in Hollywood was essentially over until she made a huge comeback in 1941 with The Maltese Falcon and winning a Supporting Actress Oscar for The Great Lie, both for Warner Bros.

But she had aged out of leading lady roles and it was LB Mayer, who always had a thing for her, who cast her in a succession of Perfect Mother roles in MGM musicals that kept her going long past her initial stardom in silent films and early talkies, when she was considered one of the most beautiful women in the world.

by Anonymousreply 134January 3, 2024 5:47 PM

Mary Asshole?

by Anonymousreply 135January 3, 2024 10:59 PM

[quote] AW, HELL NAW!!!!

*ESTHER* Down in the jungles lived a maid Of royal blood though dusky shade *TOOTIE* A marked impression once she made Upon a Zulu *ESTHER* From Matabooloo *TOOTIE* And every morning he would be Down underneath the bamboo tree *ESTHER* A Waitin' there his love to see *TOOTIE* And then to her he's sing *BOTH* To her he'd sing If you like-a me, like I like-a you and we like-a both the same I like-a say this very day, I like-a change your name. 'Cause I love-a you and lov-a you true and if you-a love-a me One live as two, two live as one Under the bamboo tree

by Anonymousreply 136January 4, 2024 2:42 AM

When Rose comes home with the ice cream and suddenly everyone is looking for Tootie, all I was thinking was - For Gods sake get the ice cream in the frig.

by Anonymousreply 137January 4, 2024 2:59 AM

Those Smith girls were such snobs. And mean about judging some men at the Christmas eve dance as not worthy to dance with.

Plus John appears at the dance after all in a tuxedo with no explanation. I wondered why Grandpa didn't offer his tuxedo to John since he heard through the thin walls about the problem.

by Anonymousreply 138January 4, 2024 5:35 AM

[quote]But she had aged out of leading lady roles

R134, Astor (b. 1906) was only two years older than Bette Davis, was three younger than Claudette Colbert, one year younger than Myrna Loy and [ahem] somewhere around the same age as Joan Crawford. All those women were still being cast in leading lady roles in the early '40s. Perhaps Astor's (or Mayer's) problem was more the lingering effect of the scandal, which was a Very Big Deal at the time.

by Anonymousreply 139January 5, 2024 9:25 AM

R47 and R51, I was going to say Mario Lanza, but I see his first film was not until 1949 (although he was signed by MGM in ’47). He did get a big buildup, though, and was a huge star for a few years in the early ‘50s. Lanza was a great singer and reasonably handsome. I confess I've never seen any of his movies, so I don't know whether he was a good actor.

by Anonymousreply 140January 5, 2024 9:57 AM

Hard to imagine MGM ever pairing Mario Lanza with Judy Garland, even if their years there coincided more fortuitously. He and Kathryn Grayson were bad enough.

Mary Astor lost her momentum as a leading lady after the scandal. Back then she was considered lucky to get supporting roles no matter her beauty or talent. It was commendable of LB Mayer to champion her, nevertheless. I hope she didn't have to eat too much of his mother's chicken soup (and yes, that is a metaphor).

by Anonymousreply 141January 5, 2024 1:05 PM

R103 Love Mary Wickes. She's good in everything.

by Anonymousreply 142January 5, 2024 1:26 PM

R142 very true

by Anonymousreply 143January 5, 2024 2:17 PM

Orson Welles said something about M. O’Brien in Jane Eyre about how great she was. She was something like 5 or 6 in the movie, and she did a French accent.

by Anonymousreply 144January 5, 2024 2:24 PM

Wasn't Mario Lanza more the Joe Pasternak unit type than the Arthur Freed unit type like Judy?

by Anonymousreply 145January 5, 2024 4:03 PM

R145 yes, but Judy did work for the Pasternak unit in a few films, like presenting Lily Mars and Summer Stock. I think Freed’s was the top unit and Pasternak got her when he could.

Speaking of Pasternak, I liked Margaret in Music For Millions, a good MGM musical I doubt too many people have heard of. It was about a symphony orchestra filled with women because the men were off at war (something that did happen during WWII). Margaret runs away to join her sister who plays string bass in the orchestra and whose husband is missing overseas (June Allyson). It was mostly orchestral and solo instrumental music, with a song or two by Jimmy Durante (who plays the manager).

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by Anonymousreply 146January 5, 2024 5:59 PM

Meet Me In St. Louis was one of MGM’s biggest moneymakers ever.

by Anonymousreply 147January 7, 2024 2:19 PM

It just isn't what St. Louis was like.

Anyway this is a better old Christmas movie.

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by Anonymousreply 148January 7, 2024 2:39 PM

R148 It’s not a documentary about the city of St. Louis.

by Anonymousreply 149January 7, 2024 2:45 PM

R148 - yes the director William Keighley may not have had the Minnelli touch but he did have that wonderful play.

by Anonymousreply 150January 14, 2024 1:12 PM

OP doesn’t know what would happen to homosexuals back then, huh? He’s really out of touch with real life.

by Anonymousreply 151January 14, 2024 1:18 PM

Tootie was the original Amber Heard.

She falsely accused John Truitt of assaulting her, proceeded to try to gain sympathy from everyone, and then had the nerve to demand ice cream as a reward.

by Anonymousreply 152January 14, 2024 4:14 PM

Tootie was in the Facts of Life, dear.

by Anonymousreply 153January 14, 2024 8:25 PM

R152, you also forgot the part where she crapped in his bed...

by Anonymousreply 154January 14, 2024 9:35 PM

Barbra Streisand wanted to remake it, playing all the parts.

by Anonymousreply 155January 15, 2024 4:49 PM

Mary Astor was under contract with MGM. She was assigned “mother roles”, which she hated. Yet, she wanted financial security. As always, she was brilliant, and she left MGM after her contract expired. MGM still wanted her, but she refused to stay.

by Anonymousreply 156January 15, 2024 5:00 PM

Mary Astor

meet your master

by Anonymousreply 157January 15, 2024 5:09 PM

[quote] Mary Astor was under contract with MGM. She was assigned “mother roles”, which she hated.

Eat your cake, Lon!

by Anonymousreply 158January 15, 2024 5:10 PM

MGM did give her roles as a blowsy boozer in Cass Timberlane (1947) and an aging hooker in Act Of Violence (1948).

by Anonymousreply 159January 15, 2024 5:11 PM

[quote] Eat your cake, Lon!

Take your THORAZINE, Tootie!

by Anonymousreply 160January 15, 2024 5:13 PM

Did Mary Astor play any great non-mother roles after she left MGM?

by Anonymousreply 161January 15, 2024 5:14 PM

Happy 85th birthday to our dear Tootie Miss Margaret O'Brien, a true survivor!

by Anonymousreply 162January 15, 2024 5:15 PM

R161 She played Norma Desmond in a TV version of Sunset Boulevard.

by Anonymousreply 163January 15, 2024 5:18 PM

She played Jewel Mayhew in Hush, Hush, Sweet Charlotte in her final onscreen appearance. It's nothing more than a cameo but she she makes the most of her limited screen time.

by Anonymousreply 164January 15, 2024 5:25 PM

R134 should be ignored…bad history. Mary Astor was back in track in 1936 with Dodsworth, a smash hit. She had other well-received films before Maltese Falcon and The Great Lie.

by Anonymousreply 165January 15, 2024 5:41 PM

I think a lot of Mary Astors fans were not upset by the diary...thewt were glad Mary was getting good meaty kosher cock.

“His first initial is G, and I fell like a ton of bricks. I met him Friday. Saturday he called for me at the Ambassador and we went to the Casino for lunch and had a very gay time! Monday—we ducked out of the boring party. It was very hot so we got a cab and drove around the park a few times and the park was, well, the park, and he held my hand and said he’d like to kiss me but didn’t.

Tuesday night we had a dinner at ‘21’ and on the way to see Run Little Chillun he did kiss me—and I don’t think either of us remember much what the show was about. We played kneesies during the first two acts, my hand wasn’t in my own lap during the third. It’s been years since I’ve felt up a man in public, but I just got carried away.

Afterwards we had a drink someplace and then went to a little flat in 73rd Street where we could be alone, and it was all very thrilling and beautiful. Once George lays down his glasses, he is quite a different man. His powers of recuperation are amazing, and we made love all night long. It all worked perfectly, and we shared our fourth climax at dawn. I didn’t see much of anybody else the rest of the time—we saw every show in town, had grand fun together and went frequently to 73rd Street where he fucked the living daylights out of me.”

—Excerpts published in Kenneth Anger’s HollywoodBabylon, from the diary of actress Mary Astor, whose affair with the playwright and critic George S. Kaufman was exposed during her 1936 custody battle. She claimed the snippets leaked to the tabloids were inaccurate. We’ll never know: A judge in 1952 had it burned.

by Anonymousreply 166January 15, 2024 11:44 PM

The radio adaptation is on SiriusXM Radio Classics right now. Judy, Tom, and Margaret reprise their roles.

by Anonymousreply 167January 16, 2024 12:21 AM

R166, some excerpts were real, others were fabricated by a writer at the NY Daily News and Astor's ex-husband.

[quote]Mary’s diary, which her ex-husband—Franklyn Thorpe, a Hollywood doctor—had found when they were still married. [...] Thorpe planned to use the diary to prove she was an unfit mother.

[...]

[quote]Florabel Muir was in town to cover the trial—one of the New York Daily News’s top reporters and arguably the most unethical one on its staff. [...] Once she got hold of Mary’s diary long enough to photograph it, she had no compunctions about making the contents juicier or, if too juicy, more printable for the newspapers.

[...]

[quote]Thorpe felt like a blackjack player who had an ace for his down card. Monday he would have the pleasure of seeing Kaufman mortified on the witness stand, and tomorrow the tabs would print leaked diary excerpts about him. They praised G’s prowess as a lover in such graphic terms that even the tabloids resorted to euphemisms. The most explicit extracts appeared in Time, which quoted Mary’s testimonial to her “thrilling ecstasy” with George, who “fits me perfectly . . . many exquisite moments . . . twenty—count them, diary, twenty . . . I don’t see how he does it . . . he’s perfect.”

[...]

[quote]Where exactly was Miss Astor’s 200-page diary? Dr. Thorpe was put on the stand and said he’d given the incendiary reading matter to his lawyers. Then a former member of his legal team swore she had given it to the lead lawyer—who said he had given it to his brother and law partner, who in turn said he had had photostatic copies made of pages pertinent to the custody action but didn’t know where the rest were.

[quote]Since the diary had been tampered with, the court held that the whole thing must be disallowed

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by Anonymousreply 168January 16, 2024 12:25 AM

The judge who rule the diary inadmissible: 17 years later he became Governor of CA. Goodie Knight.

by Anonymousreply 169January 16, 2024 12:32 AM

One of Mary's later great roles was in Desert Fury (1947) for Paramount. She played a very perverse mother.

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by Anonymousreply 170January 16, 2024 2:23 AM

[quote] One of Mary's later great roles was in Desert Fury (1947) for Paramount. She played a very perverse mother.

So similar to her role in Meet Me In St. Louis?

by Anonymousreply 171January 16, 2024 2:29 AM

Can you imagine if there was a play called “Meet Me in East Saint Louis”

by Anonymousreply 172January 16, 2024 2:33 AM

Bigot^

Take a hike

by Anonymousreply 173January 16, 2024 3:22 AM

Ooh Mary did The Star for Lux Video Theatre in 1956.

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by Anonymousreply 174January 16, 2024 3:26 AM

R173 Go hike there, see how it ends.

by Anonymousreply 175January 16, 2024 3:38 AM

R174 With William Hopper in the Sterling Hayden role.

by Anonymousreply 176January 18, 2024 2:36 AM

I wish I could've seen Lux Video Theatre's take on "Sunset Boulevard," with Miriam Hopkins, and gay James Daly.

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by Anonymousreply 177January 18, 2024 3:11 AM

Check out Savage Intruder (1972). It's the same story except more savage.

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by Anonymousreply 178January 18, 2024 3:16 AM

Or "Casablanca" with Paul Douglas and Arlene Dahl.

by Anonymousreply 179January 18, 2024 3:17 AM

They had to change the plot of "A Place in the Sun" -- the actress playing the Shelley Winters part got fat because Ann Blyth kept force-feeding her Twinkies.

by Anonymousreply 180January 18, 2024 3:21 AM

Miriam Hopkins in Sunset Boulevard...

by Anonymousreply 181January 18, 2024 2:51 PM

[quote]Miriam Hopkins in Sunset Boulevard...

Must-flee TV.

by Anonymousreply 182January 18, 2024 3:25 PM

Mary Astor also did two Alfred Hitchcock Presents - "Mrs. Herman and Mrs. Fenimore" and "The Impossible Dream".

by Anonymousreply 183January 18, 2024 6:20 PM

Tom Drake did an Alfred Hitchcock Hour.

by Anonymousreply 184January 18, 2024 7:49 PM

"Off Season" in 1965.

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by Anonymousreply 185January 19, 2024 1:34 PM

MOB on What's My Line?

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by Anonymousreply 186January 20, 2024 5:15 AM

Jesus she is as annoying as ever.

by Anonymousreply 187January 20, 2024 5:17 AM

Thank you, R186. That was fun to watch. I liked the ladies' dresses, and Graham Hall, the crocodile hunter, was cute.

Yes, MOB seemed annoying, but anyone would with that awful fake accent. Would any of the panel have recognized her natural speaking voice as an adult? (I know the voice disguise is a standard thing for the mystery guest.) She had done some TV in the '50s, but not much.

by Anonymousreply 188January 20, 2024 9:47 AM

Margaret and Darryl Hickman (who was also in MMISL) did a Private Screenings panel interview with Robert Osborne - the other two child stars were Dickie Moore and Jane Withers.

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by Anonymousreply 189January 20, 2024 10:11 PM

The movie came out in 1944 and was set in 1904. It was nostalgic for a lot of people who saw it. It would be like a movie made today that’s set in 1984. Many people still remembered the time, and the teens looked at it as a quaint earlier day.

by Anonymousreply 190January 21, 2024 1:00 AM

I think her appearance on WML is one of the funniest ever. She clearly had no problem making fun of herself and really seemed to baffle the panel. Like so many Hollywood mystery guests, she displayed a far greater sense of humor than she was ever asked to do onscreen,

I wonder if they would have guessed her identity if they'd had a little more time? They would have all known what a HUGE star she was a dozen years ago but it seemed like she wasn't working at all during this time. She was certainly as beautiful as any other Hollywood ingenue of 1957.

by Anonymousreply 191January 21, 2024 3:26 AM

Judy on What's my Line?

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by Anonymousreply 192January 21, 2024 4:44 AM

^ I think all her fanboys were in the audience.

by Anonymousreply 193January 21, 2024 5:33 AM

And Liza had just married Peter Allen.

by Anonymousreply 194January 21, 2024 5:37 AM

And and she has just signed to do Valley of the Dolls.

by Anonymousreply 195January 21, 2024 5:39 AM

As many here might already know, Judy was apparently very late to the theater for her appearance that night on What's My Line? So late that producer Mark Goodson was all set to appear in her stead as the Mystery Guest (as he was wont to do a couple of times during the show's long history when there was an unfortunate no-show).

But at the last second Judy strode in, brilliantly made up and ready to go, if albeit just a little sloshed, and there she is, sparkling as ever. How sad to hear her talk of her film comeback in Valley of the Dolls knowing the tragic outcome of that venture.

by Anonymousreply 196January 21, 2024 2:05 PM

The way she signs in suggests Judy is sloshed.

by Anonymousreply 197January 21, 2024 4:02 PM

I love the Halloween scenes simply for the glimpses of the old costumes and decorations

Tootie was a fucking brat.

by Anonymousreply 198January 21, 2024 4:12 PM

Tootie Ramsay was on The Facts of Life!

by Anonymousreply 199January 21, 2024 4:14 PM

[quote]Fun fact: I played Mr. Dodge in my high school production of Meet Me in St. Louis. Funner fact: I’m black. So I’m sure this colorblind casting would have set Datalounge off into a tizzy.

Why , the next shocking thing you'll tell us is that Audra McDonald once played the part of Carrie Pipperidge!!!

(reaches for smelling salts)

by Anonymousreply 200January 21, 2024 4:21 PM
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