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"May December"

Watched it on Netflix last night. Great movie, great fun, all with Todd Haynes' skillful mix of reality, poignancy, and a bit of camp (Julianne Moore's line "I don't think we have enough hot dogs" is given an overdone, ominous music sting).

Moore and Portman are excellent, of course, and Charles Melton well deserves the critical awards he's gotten; he's in his mid-thirties but at all times you see he never really outgrew his teens when Moore seduced him.

DW Moffett has a small role that shows his good looks always inhibited him from being the character actor he really was.

Who else has seen this? Thoughts?

by Anonymousreply 354January 22, 2024 2:07 PM

I thought it was good. Agreed Melton nailed the stunted and childlike nature of his life.

by Anonymousreply 1December 2, 2023 9:24 PM

Glad Todd Haynes got Melton naked in it, albeit briefly. His cock looked huge, but it was probably a prosthetic.

by Anonymousreply 2December 2, 2023 9:42 PM

It was ok. I can’t decide if I liked Portman or not.

I guess I thought it would be more like the real story than was, but it was just loosely based on the true story.

Gracie was controlling and childlike which would be exhausting to be around.

by Anonymousreply 3December 2, 2023 9:43 PM

It is a very odd movie, but I enjoyed it.

Melton was mesmerizing but also very difficult to watch— which means he did a good job.

I didn’t understand why Portman’s character was also into seducing kids. Or did I misinterpret? What was the point of that? To show how common this sort of thing is?

There must have been a point, otherwise her character is just there to facilitate exposition.

by Anonymousreply 4December 2, 2023 9:50 PM

Melton’s character was victimized twice, which was very hard to watch.

by Anonymousreply 5December 2, 2023 9:52 PM

Saw it in a packed theater a couple of weeks ago—it really merits big-screen viewing if you can catch it. I love Haynes’s dissection of actor bullshit and “prestige” true crime. All three leads are great, but it’s such a thrill to see Portman loosen up like this.

by Anonymousreply 6December 2, 2023 9:53 PM

R4 She doesn’t care about him or his trauma, she’s just using him and observing him for her own benefit like many people who profit off of true crime stories.

by Anonymousreply 7December 2, 2023 10:09 PM

Saw it in the theater a week ago. Did not get it at all.

by Anonymousreply 8December 2, 2023 10:17 PM

It was riveting. The over the top melodramatic music was fun. I loved the moment in the pet shop were Portman’s character tried to image and recreate as an actress, the seduction between Melton and Moore. And Moore’s line, “Who was in charge?” She’s placing the responsibility on Melton.

by Anonymousreply 9December 2, 2023 10:24 PM

It made me me feel gross. I guess that was the point but I didn't enjoy the movie.

by Anonymousreply 10December 2, 2023 10:41 PM

DW Moffett played Kim’s shrink in the Doug Cummings murder story

By day, DW said: “Kim, Bob values honesty. How do you think he’ll respond to the fact that you’ve been lying to him for months — even though it was to protect Frankie.”

By night, he did theater

by Anonymousreply 11December 2, 2023 10:42 PM

There were so many funny touches, like setting it in Savannah so there were always tour groups in the background, an oblique comment on the fame of the May-December couple.

And having Portman be the lead on a network drama called "Norah's Ark" — you didn't need to see a second of it to grasp the kind of show it was and its inherent shittiness.

by Anonymousreply 12December 3, 2023 12:10 AM

It's a complex, adult drama that really lingers with you and makes you think. I saw it at the New York Film Festival and loved it.

by Anonymousreply 13December 3, 2023 12:15 AM

I don't understand what you mean r4. When was Portman's character into seducing kids...? Portman's character is just an actor, and clearly not a very good one, trying desperately to capture Julianne Moore's character and doing whatever she thinks it takes. She sleeps with Charles Melton (who is now a grown man) because she thinks it will help.

The thing is Julianne Moore's character is in reality far better of an actor than Natalie Portman's character is, and it takes Natalie Portman:s character all movie to realize that.

by Anonymousreply 14December 3, 2023 12:25 AM

R14, the very last scene shows Portman becoming aroused when shooting the scene with the child actor. That’s how I interpreted it, anyway.

by Anonymousreply 15December 3, 2023 3:16 AM

Melton is so beautiful, you almost can’t bear to look at him. (Though he schlubbed up a bit for this role.)

It is so fascinating when a person that gorgeous is capable of portraying such sadness and complexity.

by Anonymousreply 16December 3, 2023 3:19 AM

*spoiler alert*

When Elizabeth & Gracie's oldest kid are outside the restaurant, he mentions the "big trauma" that started all this: stuff that happened with her brothers starting at @11 I think. I as the viewer automatically assumed that she was sexually abused by them, hence why she's so "naive". Then by the end I'm remembering she had two older & two younger brothers. Then I thought, wait, did she start this behavior earlier, like on her younger brothers? Just a really jarring film.

by Anonymousreply 17December 3, 2023 4:33 AM

I enjoyed the sick scene where Elizabeth enacts the letter from Gracie to the boy lover. Haynes is making fun of the character of Elizabeth, who is herself condescending in her camp portrayal of Gracie.

by Anonymousreply 18December 3, 2023 4:56 AM

The graduation party in the restaurant — the women all have entrees but Charles Melton and his son both have big burgers and both chomp down on them in the ravenously awkward manner of teenage boys. Melton was excellent in behaving like his near-grown kids were his siblings, because his emotional growth had stopped in his teens.

I wish Todd Haynes made a movie a year.

by Anonymousreply 19December 3, 2023 5:16 AM

We need to know:

*spoiler below*

WAS THE BONER REAL?!

by Anonymousreply 20December 3, 2023 5:20 AM

Looked LONG and pointy.

by Anonymousreply 21December 3, 2023 5:21 AM

THanks, OP. I hadn't planned on watching it, because I can't stand Portman, but based on what you've said, I will give it a try this week. I like Todd Haynes and Julianne. Not familiar with the Melton.

by Anonymousreply 22December 3, 2023 5:24 AM

[quote]I wish Todd Haynes made a movie a year.

Same.

Safe and Far From Heaven are two of my favorite movies, so I had high expectations going into this, and they were exceeded.

Todd and Julianne Moore are magic together.

by Anonymousreply 23December 3, 2023 5:26 AM

Love how Todd Haynes tears Elizabeth to shreds throughout. I just finished watching, correct me if I'm wrong: in one of the earlier scenes, Elizabeth is watching what looks like an old TV movie of Gracie's story. Bad hair, cheap sets etc. So it's like Haynes is setting this up as "the earlier tv movie sucked (here's a clip)" so we're expecting the Film version & Elizabeth are going to be the "redemption arc" for Gracie, Elizabeth will be great. But in the end it's just another tawdry portrayal with another bad wig. Love it.

by Anonymousreply 24December 3, 2023 5:28 AM

[quote]Saw it in a packed theater a couple of weeks ago—it really merits big-screen viewing if you can catch it.

I agree completely, R6. I saw it at IFC Center last week and rewatched it when it came out on Netflix on Friday.

It's a real big screen experience, especially the soundtrack. As soon as I saw it, I wanted to see it again to process my reactions.

It is so richly ambiguous and thought-provoking.

by Anonymousreply 25December 3, 2023 5:33 AM

R17 is right, and I missed this—I assumed on my first viewing Gracie had been abused by her older brothers, but she may, in fact, have been the abuser of her younger brothers.

by Anonymousreply 26December 3, 2023 5:33 AM

The guy who plays Julianne Moore's husband is seriously way too young to play her husband.

by Anonymousreply 27December 3, 2023 5:41 AM

The actor is 32. If the character became a father at 12, then again at 13 or 14, it's about the right age.

by Anonymousreply 28December 3, 2023 5:47 AM

Natalie's character is 36 and says they're the same age.

I thought he was a believable 36-year-old.

by Anonymousreply 29December 3, 2023 7:10 AM

The movie is called May December, not May May. The extremely notable age difference is the point.

by Anonymousreply 30December 3, 2023 7:14 AM

If you've never seen this Todd Haynes masterpiece, watch it post haste.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 31December 3, 2023 7:17 AM

I thought Cory Michael Smith was great as Georgie, the son from the "old family."

I totally bought him as scuzzy Southern scene trash, which is not his usual type.

by Anonymousreply 32December 3, 2023 7:19 AM

I laughed when one of the daughters said "I'm a big fan of Norah's Ark" and Portman replies in the phoniest voice "Thank you, it means the world".

by Anonymousreply 33December 3, 2023 7:35 AM

Smith is cute in Transatlantic.

by Anonymousreply 34December 3, 2023 7:46 AM

When Georgie talks about his Birthday party and the one friend that comes over that he gives a hand job to and then never speaks to again, was that Joe?

by Anonymousreply 35December 3, 2023 10:57 AM

While the music is adapted from Michel Legrand’s score for The Go-Betweens, the use of it is reminiscent of some of Cassavetes’ films from that period, especially Opening Night and A Woman Under The Influence. Haynes hasn’t referenced these films specifically but I’m not wrong, am I? Maybe it was a trend in European cinema at the time but I can’t imagine Cassavetes was concerned with trends.

by Anonymousreply 36December 3, 2023 11:21 AM

Also, in the scene where Elizabeth seduces Joe, is the suggestion supposed to be that it only lasts a few seconds because part of Joe’s arrested development is that he’s a premature ejaculator or is it just a movie trope that the sex scene lasts a few seconds because, I don’t know, movie sex doesn’t last that long. I thought it was the former because it was disturbingly short and it suggested a lot about his relationship with Gracie.

by Anonymousreply 37December 3, 2023 11:26 AM

Saw it yesterday, it was decent. When it premiered in Cannes, some critics were saying it was a campfest and hilarious at times. Those bitches need to have their eyes checked because this is not a campy movie at all; one sausage line does not a campy movie make.

Loved Cory Michael Smith's strained, screechy singing in the background when Portman was talking with the other guy. Totally bought him as a bar lounge singer. But the whole time he was at the table, I was thinking to myself "holy shit boy, you're acting opposite Natalie Portman, you have officially made it!" I have high hopes for him.

My sister is like Moore's character in that she breaks down over the smallest thing to get a reaction of emotional support. Horrible personality trait. So that was hard to watch.

My only complaint, the music was blaring at times, trying to hit me over the head with the movie's themes. Less is more in movies like this one, Marcelo Zarvos.

by Anonymousreply 38December 3, 2023 11:34 AM

r37 It's the former, yes. Pretty sure he lasts longer with Gracie, but he hasn't really ever done this with another woman.

Notice also how she quickly cleans her snatch with some nearby cloth even before he returns with a towel, and grabs the letter like she wants to read it straight away after sex while she's fully inhibiting the character. She doesn't give a shit about him in any way, it's all for research.

by Anonymousreply 39December 3, 2023 11:38 AM

I remember Vili Fualaau sued Adam Sandler for using his life as inspiration for his 2012 comedy THAT'S MY BOY.

This one hits closer to home, I should think.

by Anonymousreply 40December 3, 2023 11:40 AM

The dramatic music is stupid. I don’t understand if it’s supposed to add a comedic element? It’s like bad daytime soap opera music from the 70s.

by Anonymousreply 41December 3, 2023 12:25 PM

Moore’s and Portman’s characters are both sociopaths. I couldn’t tell if Melton’s character was cosplaying someone with arrested development for Moore’s sake, or if he actually had arrested development.

by Anonymousreply 42December 3, 2023 1:12 PM

The latter.

by Anonymousreply 43December 3, 2023 1:42 PM

I took it as Joe was an eternal victim with maybe a bit of PTSD. He was completely under her control.

by Anonymousreply 44December 3, 2023 3:35 PM

I guess this is a different opinion but I thought Julianne Moore was very miscast. She has an inherent sophistication, glamour and intelligent demeanor that don't, for me, allow her to be believable as this deluded working class character.

I also wish Haynes had gone more into the immediate aftermath of the original affair to give some details on the the trial and Gracie's subsequent jail time and the births of the older daughter and twins and show us how Gracie seemingly became more accepted by her former family and community (as we see in the flower arranging class) - except, of course, for the occasional box of shit on her doorstep.

by Anonymousreply 45December 3, 2023 3:59 PM

I don’t know, I thought the older lady at the flower arranging class was pretty snarky towards Gracie. But I speak”Southern bitch.”

by Anonymousreply 46December 3, 2023 5:25 PM

This movie shows the “now what?” part of relationships that begin in scandal/tumult.

Think the ending of “The Graduate” when Benjamin and Elaine turn to look at each other on the bus like “… now what?”

by Anonymousreply 47December 3, 2023 5:31 PM

I enjoyed it, but isn’t it a basic tv movie of the week? Very campy with the snake at the end.

And Charles Mellton winning critic awards… whatever. When he is interviewed he has the same halting speech so not sure he was acting much.

by Anonymousreply 48December 3, 2023 5:31 PM

Correct r46. Julianne Moore's character was not embraced by the community. The people at the flower class did not like her and we realize it is just her small group of friends ordering all her bakes because they feel bad for her. She just pretends like everything is normal.

by Anonymousreply 49December 3, 2023 5:34 PM

Haynes expressed reluctance to cast Melton because he was so good looking. But I think it adds something to the story.

Several characters comment on how good looking he was as a kid. And Elizabeth didn’t just fuck him for research-: he’s a hot guy!

You see lots of cases of predators going after beautiful girls and women, starting at an early age. Here, we see it with a boy/man.

Gracie seems to be just another predator. She presents herself as damaged / crazy / slow to escape consequences.

I’d love to know how she got that way.

by Anonymousreply 50December 3, 2023 5:50 PM

The older daughter (Honor) sure seemed to have Mom’s number.

by Anonymousreply 51December 3, 2023 5:52 PM

They got money to buy the house by selling the story previously, 18 years ago? And how do they still have money? The boy-husband is blue collar.

by Anonymousreply 52December 3, 2023 5:55 PM

It’s no “Carol.” Nice try ladies.

by Anonymousreply 53December 3, 2023 6:11 PM

[quote]I guess this is a different opinion but I thought Julianne Moore was very miscast. She has an inherent sophistication, glamour and intelligent demeanor that don't, for me, allow her to be believable as this deluded working class character.

Is her character's background based on Mary Kay Letourneau, who came from a well-off political family.

Her mother was also very conservative about behaving like a lady and such.

by Anonymousreply 54December 3, 2023 6:12 PM

Thank you. That explains the continued income stream and the generally classiness of the perp.

by Anonymousreply 55December 3, 2023 6:14 PM

A woman of 36 targeting a 13 year old boy is so gross. Ditto blaming him.

by Anonymousreply 56December 3, 2023 6:17 PM

Incidentally, Mary Kay Letourneau's brothers, John and Joseph Schmitz, both worked for Bush Sr. and Bush Jr.

Joseph even worked on Trump's 2016 presidential campaign.

by Anonymousreply 57December 3, 2023 6:22 PM

The "who was in charge" thing is based on what Mary Kay Letourneau would actually say r99.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 58December 3, 2023 6:27 PM

R9*

by Anonymousreply 59December 3, 2023 6:28 PM

It’s the exact same mindset you see with all those “Lolita” news stories and movies.

Predator has sex with a very young female then says “Oh, she knew exactly what she was doing! SHE seduced ME!”

12-year-old Joe had no support at home and was raising his siblings. He was the perfect target for a predator.

There were lots of kids in 7th/8th grade when I was a kid who were already 6 feet tall. You could easily forget they were so young. But an adult shouldn’t “forget” that, obviously.

by Anonymousreply 60December 3, 2023 6:34 PM

Joe is a radiology tech. They make ok money.

by Anonymousreply 61December 3, 2023 7:07 PM

Watching that clip of Mary Kay, Carey Mulligan would have been good in the role.

by Anonymousreply 62December 3, 2023 7:08 PM

So was Joe supposed to be a premature ejaculator then? Or was that movie shorthand for “they have sex”? I wasn’t sure if it was intended to be seen as a further deficiency due to his arrested development or what.

by Anonymousreply 63December 3, 2023 7:44 PM

I thought all along it was a lezzie romance.

Todd Hayes+ Julian Moore+ May/ December title+ Natalie Poetman = lesbian romance

by Anonymousreply 64December 3, 2023 8:07 PM

My PE teacher (woman) was fucking a classmate (male). We were in 7th/8th grade. He bragged to his friends, of course, and she was fired. I don’t think anything else happened to her. I did some internet sleuthing but couldn’t find her. She was very pretty/sultry and married to very handsome doctor.

My classmate killed himself a few years ago in his late 40s. His mom blamed his suicide on the relationship with the teacher, which she claimed he never got over. I remember him as being a bit of a psychopath, but a sexy psychopath. A cruel guy/bully. He went to a gun range and shot himself while there.

by Anonymousreply 65December 3, 2023 8:30 PM

r63 I thought it was because he was so excited to be with a young woman that he came right away.

by Anonymousreply 66December 3, 2023 8:56 PM

I actually loved Julianne Moore in this. The twist ending confrontation at the graduation was great

I usually hate Natalie Portman but I thought she was good too

by Anonymousreply 67December 3, 2023 9:17 PM

Does anyone know if that was really Charles Melton’s erect cock or not? If it’s fake I am just wondering why they would decide to even show that because it’s such a serious, dark movie. If it is in fact his real dick then I would let him fuck me in a second. He deserves an Oscar just for that!

by Anonymousreply 68December 3, 2023 9:34 PM

[quote]I thought it was because he was so excited to be with a young woman that he came right away.

Yeah, Melton performed it like an excited teenage boy — all thrusting, no thought of his partner, premature ejaculation. It was perfect for the character.

by Anonymousreply 69December 3, 2023 9:55 PM

Don't let your horniness blind your common sense guys, of course that was a prosthetic that Charles Melton was wearing. You aren't ever going to get a real erection in a mainstream Hollywood film.

You can listen to an interview with the guy who made it here if you want. It's mainly about this work on other things, but he talks a little May/December

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 70December 3, 2023 10:00 PM

Boring

by Anonymousreply 71December 3, 2023 10:00 PM

Did he gain weight for the role? He looked a bit flabby.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 72December 3, 2023 10:16 PM

How many times did he have to sleep with Todd Haynes?

by Anonymousreply 73December 3, 2023 10:21 PM

Does a radiologist's ass't make enough money to afford that house and send 3 kids to college?

Obviously not or Gracie wouldn't be baking all those pineapple upside down cakes. Or - of course! The kids must all be on scholarships.

I must have missed any snark from the others at the flower arranging class but clearly in the scene before that in the beginning of the film, the one neighbor lady was very sympathetic and supportive of Gracie as she defended her to Elizabeth.

by Anonymousreply 74December 3, 2023 10:21 PM

[72] He gained 40+ lbs for the role. He ate a gallon of ice cream and pizza everyday.

by Anonymousreply 75December 3, 2023 10:21 PM

R45 Mary Kay was not trashy or ugly by any means. She came from a white collar, well off family, was pretty and relatively classy other than being a pedophile. I think Moore was well cast.

by Anonymousreply 76December 3, 2023 10:27 PM

r76. I'm not basing my opinion of Moore's casting on Mary Kay. I don't really know anything about Mary Kay's background.

I think Moore is miscast just based on the film's characterization and story. As I said, to me , she just seems too inherently sophisticated, savvy and intelligent to play this woman, who from the film seems to be from a working class background. For one example, I don't buy her working in a failing suburban pet shop.

by Anonymousreply 77December 3, 2023 10:47 PM

Mary Kay’s father was a GOP congressman from California.

by Anonymousreply 78December 3, 2023 10:53 PM

Exactly how many kids did Gracie, the Moore character, have? I know she had three with her underaged lover. And then at the restaurant, and her ex shows up, it seemed like there many others. I thought that was hilarious. All Gracie seemed to know how to do is fuck and pop babies out. No wonder she cried a lot of the time.

by Anonymousreply 79December 3, 2023 11:16 PM

I wonder if Vili can sue the filmmakers? Or at least be compensated financially. This movie hits too close to home in regards to his story.

by Anonymousreply 80December 3, 2023 11:21 PM

Mary Kay’s dad was a CA congressman, but it’s not like that pays well. And they were fundie nutjobs,, so how classy could they have been?

Mary Kay was married to a blue collar dick head (Steve). She was an elementary school teacher— that isn’t exactly a high powered career.

by Anonymousreply 81December 4, 2023 12:25 AM

Radiology techs make great money.

by Anonymousreply 82December 4, 2023 1:08 AM

The movie addressed their ability to afford the house in a subtle way, saying the big pay day from selling the rights to their wedding is what paid for the house.

by Anonymousreply 83December 4, 2023 1:11 AM

Selling the rights to the earlier TV movie we saw Elizabeth watching? How much do you think they made off of that?

Are we to think that this new movie also paid them for the rights to their story?

Also, are we to think, based on that phone call, that Elizabeth is having an affair with her director?

by Anonymousreply 84December 4, 2023 1:18 AM

I'd love to fuck Charles Melton

by Anonymousreply 85December 4, 2023 1:23 AM

It's a nice middle class career but it's not rolling in the dough r82.

But the movie does make it clear they freely milked their live stories for money.

by Anonymousreply 86December 4, 2023 1:27 AM

Check out Charles Melton in the. “Bro House” episode of “American Horror Stories.”

Bonus: it’s Christmas themed!

by Anonymousreply 87December 4, 2023 1:27 AM

[quote]Also, are we to think, based on that phone call, that Elizabeth is having an affair with her director?

Absolutely. And it's been established she has a fiancé.

I loved her first line where she walks into the magnificent whole Southern mansion AirBnB, which is all for her, and she describes it as "quaint."

by Anonymousreply 88December 4, 2023 1:57 AM

Thought Melton was excellent, we have all met a man like that in our lives.

by Anonymousreply 89December 4, 2023 2:15 AM

[quote]But the movie does make it clear they freely milked their live stories for money.

Yeah—if they sold the wedding to a People-type magazine, it's not too far a leap to imagine they sold the younger kids' newborn pictures, the anniversary interview, the fifth anniversary interview...

People used to pay out the ass for this kind of stuff. In the early '00s, People, OK!, and Us would get in huge bidding wars, so it's plausible they got millions, or at least enough to have no mortgage and be comfortable in Savannah.

by Anonymousreply 90December 4, 2023 2:27 AM

One of the kids asks Gracie how much money she is getting paid for the movie Elisabeth is going to make.

by Anonymousreply 91December 4, 2023 2:31 AM

Watching this prompted me to google the Mary Kay Letourneau case. I can’t believe they ended up married. I hope Vili Fualaau is getting to enjoy being independent now that he’s on his own

by Anonymousreply 92December 4, 2023 2:33 AM

He's not independent, he has a boatload of kids

by Anonymousreply 93December 4, 2023 2:44 AM

Vili aged like rotten taro.

by Anonymousreply 94December 4, 2023 3:18 AM

Joe was texting somebody regarding the butterflies, did they ever identify who that person was? I think it was a facebook group or something.

by Anonymousreply 95December 4, 2023 3:25 AM

[quote]Joe was texting somebody regarding the butterflies, did they ever identify who that person was? I think it was a facebook group or something.

A woman in his Facebook group about monarch butterflies. We never learn anything about her.

by Anonymousreply 96December 4, 2023 3:26 AM

Thank you, I couldn't figure out where they were going with that.

by Anonymousreply 97December 4, 2023 3:38 AM

^ R97, I wonder if that is who he ultimately left her for, the butterfly FB friend who responded when asked if she wanted to go see the butterflies in Mexico, responded: "I thought you were married?"

by Anonymousreply 98December 4, 2023 3:46 AM

I think it was just a fantasy of his with the texting. Nothing real, just escape. Melton is staggeringly handsome but he was merely adequate in the role. Totally unremarkable and many young men could have played that part.

by Anonymousreply 99December 4, 2023 4:02 AM

I saw it today and thought it was excellent. Absorbing, complex and finally haunting. Also disturbing. Perfectly sustained mood and an excellent screenplay.

Haynes gives you lots of clues as to how this bizarre relationship started but lets the audience make up its own mind. Makes sense that Gracie, having been sexually abused from an early age, would want a sweet man she could manipulate by using her own sexual favors. And that she would use the marriage as a suffocating haven from further pain, oblivious to the pain she was causing others. Staying in town was a weird sort of denial to convince herself it all turned out okay. Joe was clearly not a skilled or sophisticated lover, there was virtually no foreplay before he fucked the actress.

And the observation above that both women were sociopaths (and by extension all actresses are?) is dead on and very sly on Haynes’ part.

by Anonymousreply 100December 4, 2023 4:06 AM

[wuote]R68 Does anyone know if that was really Charles Melton’s erect cock

I though this said [bold]Charles Manson’s[/bold]… !!

by Anonymousreply 101December 4, 2023 4:34 AM

Mary Kay died of colorectal cancer. I guess you could say karma got her in the end.

by Anonymousreply 102December 4, 2023 4:40 AM

When they say "colorectal cancer" instead of colon cancer, that usually means rectal.

Maybe her first husband or Vili gave her anal HPV.

Wouldn't that be a kick in the ... pants.

by Anonymousreply 103December 4, 2023 4:45 AM

The 18-year-old son seems more mature than Joe. Very sad.

by Anonymousreply 104December 4, 2023 5:45 AM

IRL Villi and MaryLou divorced and he went on to have a child with another woman. IDK if they are married or not, but they stay out of the spotlight, apparently.

by Anonymousreply 105December 4, 2023 1:38 PM

R104, he certainly lasts longer.

by Anonymousreply 106December 4, 2023 2:14 PM

Just watched. A bit boring. Well acted.

by Anonymousreply 107December 4, 2023 2:54 PM

Thanks to this spirited discussion here on the DL, I watched this yesterday.

Thought it was excellent. Great story, very subtly told. Much left to the imagination, which was a bonus I did not expect.

Wonderful cast.

by Anonymousreply 108December 4, 2023 3:26 PM

I think if Joe usually lasted longer and was aware of premature ejaculation, he would’ve apologised to Elizabeth or been embarrassed. Instead, he’s ready for some afterglow which Elizabeth clearly isn’t feeling.

by Anonymousreply 109December 4, 2023 3:30 PM

The encounter with Elizabeth was brutal, but it might have caused Joe to realize he wants more out of life.

I’ve had three or four relationships that made my life much more difficult than it needed to be. I feel like I missed out on a lot of life because I was always taking care of someone.

Joe is still very young. He can use this bad experience to figure out what he wants.

by Anonymousreply 110December 4, 2023 4:27 PM

Joe’s parents apparently thought nothing of treating him like a “man” with a man’s responsibilities when he was 12 or 13. You see this a lot in poorer families and / or in some ethnic groups. Gracie wasn’t his only abuser.

My friend’s grandfather ran away from an abusive home and joined the army when he was 12 years old. He was a big farm kid and just lied about his age. This would have been around 1927-1930.

You can see Joe still struggle to “be a man” while he’s realizing that his life has been stolen from him.

by Anonymousreply 111December 4, 2023 4:34 PM

I also saw it last night and loved it. Sure were a lot of sociopaths in this story: Gracie, Elizabeth, the grifter first family son, maybe Gracie's brothers...

I loved the ending at the graduation when Elizabeth realizes she has been outplayed by Gracie.

by Anonymousreply 112December 4, 2023 7:14 PM

R102 you don't know what karma is and also cancer is not caused to enact moral punishment. Dingbat.

by Anonymousreply 113December 4, 2023 7:22 PM

I really liked it. Julianne Moore is so damn good.

I loved the scene where Julianne and Natalie put on makeup. So Todd Haynes.

by Anonymousreply 114December 4, 2023 7:45 PM

All three leads were terrific, as was Cory Michael Smith, whom I first noticed in Olive Kittredge. Enjoyable interview here. I could see Georgie on OnlyFans.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 115December 4, 2023 7:46 PM

[quote]IRL Villi and MaryLou divorced and he went on to have a child with another woman. IDK if they are married or not, but they stay out of the spotlight, apparently.

Her name was Mary Kay and they did not divorce.

Vili and Mary Kay separated in 2019, but he and their two daughters were at her bedside in her final days when she passed in the summer of 2020.

by Anonymousreply 116December 4, 2023 7:46 PM

They did divorce r116. They separated in 2017 and were officially divorced in 2019, a year before she died.

by Anonymousreply 117December 4, 2023 7:48 PM

[quote]Watching this prompted me to google the Mary Kay Letourneau case.

Over 20 years ago, there was a TV movie made about the case starring Penelope Ann Miller and Mercedes Ruehl that originally aired on the USA Network although many people misremember it as a Lifetime movie.

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by Anonymousreply 118December 4, 2023 7:54 PM

I was confused by the scene where Georgie is singing. He leaves the stage to talk to Elizabeth yet we hear someone else continue singing the song who sounds just like him. Huh?

by Anonymousreply 119December 4, 2023 8:00 PM

I'm not going to cry over pedophiles who die of cancer.

by Anonymousreply 120December 4, 2023 8:09 PM

R119 I think he said the drummer took over and then got up and said (to the effect of) oh hell no...

by Anonymousreply 121December 4, 2023 8:11 PM

Was there any particular meaning to the scene with Joe's heavily smoking father? What was that all about?

by Anonymousreply 122December 4, 2023 10:37 PM

Uh, Elizabeth had sex with Gracie’s husband. I think that qualifies as outplayed.

by Anonymousreply 123December 4, 2023 10:46 PM

R122 I took that in, with the pot scene on the roof with Joe, Jr. In both instances the others seem to be giving insight to Joe. Joe Jr. is already more worldly than his father, and Joe's dad says maybe he'll have time to think about other things, after the graduation. The smoking seemed to be a shamanistic activity, or a device to indicate one.

by Anonymousreply 124December 4, 2023 10:47 PM

Smoking showed up in a few eventful scenes, as did asthma (Portman's character, Joe's sister).

Maybe a comment on the claustrophobia/smothered nature of Joe and Gracie's lives.

Whenever I see someone struggling to breathe or doing something to compromise their breathing, I feel claustrophobic.

If so, it worked better for me than the heavy-handed caterpillar/butterfly imagery, which I could have done without.

by Anonymousreply 125December 4, 2023 10:49 PM

I took as showing his Father is a damaged man also. People smoke as an outlet to release stress and anxiety, and we see him sitting there chain-smoking cigarettes to get by.

by Anonymousreply 126December 4, 2023 11:13 PM

When Joe took a cigarette and started smoking with his father I took it as this kid who is trying to act like an adult. Joe's father was older and was smoking and it seemed like Joe was trying to emulate him and act more like an adult.

by Anonymousreply 127December 4, 2023 11:23 PM

Wow! Thanks for all these perceptive takes on the smoking scene.

by Anonymousreply 128December 5, 2023 12:12 AM

This movie went no where and explained nothing.

by Anonymousreply 129December 5, 2023 12:32 AM

I didn't much like the movie but it was definitely thought-provoking as there was so much to interpret so many ways.

by Anonymousreply 130December 5, 2023 12:36 AM

[quote]I took as showing his Father is a damaged man also. People smoke as an outlet to release stress and anxiety, and we see him sitting there chain-smoking cigarettes to get by.

Yeah, he was a victim of the affair as well — Joe has to get his groceries and his father's whole life is sitting on that balcony and smoking.

by Anonymousreply 131December 5, 2023 12:43 AM

What never really was explained was why the fuck Portman's actress character would want to go that deep into anyway.

Then going out on "it's beginning to feel real"? Etf was supposed to be deep? Showing an actress can be just as messed up as the person they're playing? There wasn't a lot of good about her.

Julianne Moore's lisp got on my fucking nerves and was not believable.

by Anonymousreply 132December 5, 2023 12:50 AM

[quote]Over 20 years ago, there was a TV movie made about the case starring Penelope Ann Miller and Mercedes Ruehl that originally aired on the USA Network although many people misremember it as a Lifetime movie.

I watched this last night. A cut above most TV movies (Mercedes Ruehl, and WHET Penelope Ann Miller?), but they cast an older actor as the 13-year-old, which undercut it. You did get a sense of how crazy Mary Kay's father was — he'd be Ultra MAGA today.

by Anonymousreply 133December 5, 2023 12:55 AM

I didn't even register Gracie's lisp until the actress's OTT "interpretation," it was that subtle to me.

by Anonymousreply 134December 5, 2023 12:58 AM

I really didn’t like this movie. I suspect it kind of went over my head but I’m not an idiot - just didn’t see the point when it was over. Narcissists behave like narcissists…ok.

by Anonymousreply 135December 5, 2023 1:42 AM

Todd Haynes movies can be enjoyed as mostly style exercises that appeal to cinephiles who enjoy style for styles sake. See also: Sofia Coppola, Quentin Tarantino, Wes Anderson, Baz Luhrmann, Terrence Malick and many dozens before them.

by Anonymousreply 136December 5, 2023 1:58 AM

Not every movie is for the general audience who mainly watches blockbusters and the like.

It's perfectly fine that some movies are meant for "cinephiles".

by Anonymousreply 137December 5, 2023 2:01 AM

I didn't say otherwise, at R136. I was responding to R135, who didn't see a point to this stylish movie.

by Anonymousreply 138December 5, 2023 2:08 AM

Julianne Moore’s lisp drives me nuts! Did MKL do that?

by Anonymousreply 139December 5, 2023 3:02 AM

I didn't notice Julianne was using a lisp until halfway through so I had to go back and watch her early scenes. The thing that bugs me about Portman is that fake smile she does.

by Anonymousreply 140December 5, 2023 3:12 AM

Was Natalie wearing a (bad) wig in some scenes?

by Anonymousreply 141December 5, 2023 3:29 AM

Portman looks ugly with bangs. She isn’t really aging well. She isn’t old looking, it’s just that her features aren’t as attractive anymore.

by Anonymousreply 142December 5, 2023 3:43 AM

I just watched the scene they played on WWHL and I did not hear a lisp at all. I never heard it throughout the whole movie.

by Anonymousreply 143December 5, 2023 3:46 AM

You didn't notice that Natalie used one in her monologue?

by Anonymousreply 144December 5, 2023 4:27 AM

Haynes has used the “observer who’s a little too obsessed” device before (Christian Bale’s character in. “Velvet Goldmine.”)

by Anonymousreply 145December 5, 2023 4:42 AM

(r144) I'll have to watch that monologue again, now that you mention it maybe I noticed it with Natalie more than Julianne.

by Anonymousreply 146December 5, 2023 4:49 AM

MKL seemed to have a bit of vocal fry, maybe. I didn’t get a lisp from her.

by Anonymousreply 147December 5, 2023 10:15 AM

Someone upthread mentioned the "twist" confrontation ending between Gracie and Elizabeth at the graduation. Whatever information is supposed to be revealed by Gracie's insisting that she talks to her son every day and Elizabeth's full body shudder and bag adjustment was lost on me. What's implied by that interaction?

I noticed the lisp came and went and wondered if Julianne was unable to keep it up or if Gracie used it to manipulate those around her by acting more innocent than she really was. It was most obvious in emotionally-charged scenes.

by Anonymousreply 148December 5, 2023 3:20 PM

What is implied R148 is that Gracie is in full control. When she said "I'm very secure" with a steely gaze - you were left in no doubt that she was a predator playing the role of a helpless damsel.

by Anonymousreply 149December 5, 2023 3:22 PM

Portman really needs to stop smoking. She is 21 years younger than Moore and certainly doesn't look it.

by Anonymousreply 150December 5, 2023 3:24 PM

Thanks, R149. That was my take on the character from the beginning, so I guess it explains the lack of revelation.

by Anonymousreply 151December 5, 2023 3:51 PM

Went into the film assuming that Gracie was a teacher and she met Joe in school. Changing the setting to a pet store was an interesting choice, but seems arbitrary and I'm not sure they made the most of it.

by Anonymousreply 152December 5, 2023 3:52 PM

[quote]You did get a sense of how crazy Mary Kay's father was — he'd be Ultra MAGA today.

R133 Her brother, Joseph Schmitz, was a foreign policy adviser to Donald Trump.

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by Anonymousreply 153December 5, 2023 3:53 PM

Not sure what to make of the retakes of the pet shop scene with the snake. Any thoughts?

by Anonymousreply 154December 5, 2023 3:55 PM

I wondered if it was just to show how boring and technical and unsexy the filming of sex scenes actually are in moviemaking, r154.

by Anonymousreply 155December 5, 2023 5:54 PM

I’m obsessed with the cheesy score

by Anonymousreply 156December 5, 2023 6:28 PM

The end of the movie shows a couple important things. Once that Julianne Moore's character outplayed her. Natalie Portman thinks she has finally unraveled Gracie and understands her, but she blows that up when she reveals she knows exactly the "secret" conversations that Portman has been having with her son. She was in on it the whole time and that it's all made up (or is it, who knows).

That causes Portman to spiral and doubt her preparation. We see her failing when the movie is filming and she is trying to capture Julianne Moore. All her insane method "preparation" lead nowhere and she is fumbling the bag.

by Anonymousreply 157December 5, 2023 6:34 PM

How many children did Gracie have??

by Anonymousreply 158December 5, 2023 6:34 PM

r156 it's music from the Go-Between. Rather fitting because it's about a 12 year old boy with a crush on Julie Christie.

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by Anonymousreply 159December 5, 2023 6:38 PM

R154 In addition to what the poster at R157 said, with each take Elizabeth became more sensual and requested additional takes because it was "becoming real"-- I think the final scene depicted the lines becoming blurred (as she said in her speech to the students earlier in the film) and alluded to the fact that she was at risk of having a sexual relationship with the young actor.

by Anonymousreply 160December 5, 2023 7:19 PM

Oh who cares??

by Anonymousreply 161December 5, 2023 9:36 PM

This movie created such a strong reaction in me I’m still trying to process it. I have so much that I want to comment on, but I can’t even put it in words yet. For now I’ll say that I thought both Moore and Portman were excellent. They really went raw with playing predatory manipulative women without overplaying it.

Julianne is just brilliant at telling you so much about her character just by the way she chooses to deliver a few short lines. I feel like every scene was carefully considered by Haynes too.

The end result for me was just feeling such loathing for Gracie. I really felt kind of gutted/grossed out/disturbed by how this woman stole Charlie’s life from him in a way that all the sensational coverage of the real case could never genuinely convey.

by Anonymousreply 162December 5, 2023 9:41 PM

Who is Charlie?

by Anonymousreply 163December 5, 2023 10:54 PM

I kept thinking "This music sounds oddly familiar," so it was a very satisfying moment when the credits mentioned the score having being adapted from The Go-Between.

by Anonymousreply 164December 5, 2023 11:20 PM

It's a curious musical choice.

by Anonymousreply 165December 5, 2023 11:25 PM

Julianne Moore, seriously.

Her movies haven't all been great, but I can't remember her ever turning in a bad performance.

by Anonymousreply 166December 5, 2023 11:27 PM

So far, Julianne has the female performance of the year. Nobody was better in Oppenheimer. I haven’t seen Nyad or Poor Things though.

by Anonymousreply 167December 6, 2023 1:15 AM

It's a very collected performance, underplayed, witty and chilling.

by Anonymousreply 168December 6, 2023 1:31 AM

Is Charles coked up here? He better be on his best behavior during the Oscar campaign season.

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by Anonymousreply 169December 6, 2023 1:45 AM

R167 - yes but she didn't go swimming with Jodie Foster.

by Anonymousreply 170December 6, 2023 1:51 AM

Yeah I didn't get. Big reveal, I'm in control acting dumb the whole time!?

Yeah right. Her husband's questioning their relationship, about to have a breakdown, she doesn't get along with some of her kids, it's awkward interacting with her old and new family. Her only career seems to be making pies, wow! She's a pariah. What does she have?

Natalie's could be like, oh you're right bitch. My bad, and go on to play her as a mommy dearest psycho. What would Julian Moore's character do? Nothing! Because she's a frail nothing.

I'm not a fan of cryptic movies where you need an accompanied text to decipher it. Shawshank Redemption didn't need analysis for these make up your own meaning movies. You felt something palpable.

With this I felt confused, like I was watching Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman incorporate the Mary Kay Letourneau story. Why? Just to show that life is sick and sad sometimes?

Fuck this movie. Never watching again.

by Anonymousreply 171December 6, 2023 2:14 AM

R167: Sandra Huller in "Anatomy of a Fall" is at the level of Moore's performance here.

by Anonymousreply 172December 6, 2023 2:14 AM

Elizabeth may have temporarily been surprised at the end, but then I am sure she forgot about it. She knows that the husband fucked her and Gracie doesn’t know about that. She could care less about these people.

by Anonymousreply 173December 6, 2023 2:24 AM

Poor Julianne Moore. She was just snubbed by the Independent Spirit award people and people are now saying that of the 3, she is the most vulnerable of losing the nomination slot.

by Anonymousreply 174December 6, 2023 2:27 AM

Isn’t Natalie going for lead and Julianne supporting? I doubt either of them will be nominated for this.

by Anonymousreply 175December 6, 2023 2:41 AM

Sandra Huller in "Anatomy of a Fall" is the performance of a decade. Such an incredible film.

by Anonymousreply 176December 6, 2023 2:44 AM

The Independent Spirit Awards mix the men with the women in a unisex category. So boring that way.

by Anonymousreply 177December 6, 2023 2:48 AM

Yes r175.

It's been announced Portman will campaign for lead while Portman will campaign for supporting.

Though honestly the best chance seems to be Charles Melton in supporting actor. The early awards groups have really been pushing him.

by Anonymousreply 178December 6, 2023 2:51 AM

R171, that’s an awfully long post to describe your position.

Next time you could just say, “I’m stupid.”

by Anonymousreply 179December 6, 2023 3:44 AM

[quote]Though honestly the best chance seems to be Charles Melton in supporting actor. The early awards groups have really been pushing him.

Yes, the real Vili Fualaau has a lot of sympathizers, so I can see Melton being carried to a nomination.

But MKL is pretty much despised by the Left, so I can see Moore missing out, regardless of her performance.

My $0.02.

by Anonymousreply 180December 6, 2023 4:12 AM

I found Gracie's comment to her daughter that a woman needs a scale to get through life odd but then since she has had so many babies maybe it makes sense for her.

by Anonymousreply 181December 6, 2023 4:23 AM

But Julianne was excellent. Right from the beginning when she takes the package from Elizabeth and calls to Joe, “Jooooeeee…” in that nails on a chalkboard voice. She is able to convey the character’s childish immaturity as well as that entitled attitude. I can’t even explain how she was able to do it.

by Anonymousreply 182December 6, 2023 4:24 AM

r180 The left? Lol I don't think actors lose awards because their character wasn't woke enough. Meryl won for playing Thatcher.

by Anonymousreply 183December 6, 2023 4:27 AM

[quote] What never really was explained was why the fuck Portman's actress character would want to go that deep into anyway.

It’s mentioned she studied at Juilliard and has done theater - so supposedly she at least has the background of a serious actress. And doing all this real life research would give her character a lot of “weighty” stuff to talk about in interviews when the film-within-a-film comes out.

The film really is good at making her insincere star seem wholly insufferable.

by Anonymousreply 184December 6, 2023 9:36 AM

I didn’t really get that Elizabeth Berry was supposed to be such a bad actress I guess because I’ve never really thought Natalie Portman was that good of an actress. I did get that she was insufferable but, again, that’s every Natalie Portman character to me. I need to watch it again.

by Anonymousreply 185December 6, 2023 2:10 PM

I'd rather watch Power of the Dog if I want enigma.

Fuck lazy storytelling.

by Anonymousreply 186December 6, 2023 2:12 PM

I don't really advocate for suicide but I was rooting for Julianne to shoot herself when she was out hunting.

Black Swan, there's a good depiction of an actor going to deep and insane. Hate these boring, slow moving nothing stories. Give me drama and action and feeling!

by Anonymousreply 187December 6, 2023 2:18 PM

Ok just watched — this was super campy. Natalie’s lisp during her last monologue, oh gosh, so funny.

I thought Charles Melton did a great job.

For the poster who wanted to see Gracie’s seduction of Joe in real time — the movie showed it to us, by way of narcissist Elizabeth seducing/using vulnerable Joe. Same thing happened between them as it did between Gracie and Joe. He is still a vulnerable kid, emotionally immature

by Anonymousreply 188December 6, 2023 2:52 PM

I didn’t really get anything too sinister from Gracie. She’s a garden variety hausfrau with arrested development. They are a dime a dozen, especially in suburbia.

Of course she’s also a child predator. Which means she’s rather stupid, because latching onto a successful man would have. Even the best way to support her frau lifestyle.

by Anonymousreply 189December 6, 2023 3:00 PM

Gracie suffers from Np/Bpd. She is rude and cold except when she is manipulating someone

by Anonymousreply 190December 6, 2023 3:05 PM

Review your sentence structure R189.

by Anonymousreply 191December 6, 2023 3:09 PM

R178 that is a novel approach for Natalie Portman to campaign for both supporting and lead.

Now why didn’t I think of that?!??

by Anonymousreply 192December 6, 2023 3:32 PM

[quote]this was super campy

There are a few intentionally campy moments, but the movie is *not* camp. It's melodrama.

by Anonymousreply 193December 6, 2023 3:58 PM

So what was up with Gracie’s ex husband? He seemed perfectly nice. I know the real life Mr Letourneau was apparently not great but what was the problem with the movie ex?

by Anonymousreply 194December 6, 2023 4:11 PM

R194, he wasn’t 13.

by Anonymousreply 195December 6, 2023 4:13 PM

I think Melton is soooo hot!

by Anonymousreply 196December 6, 2023 4:15 PM

[quote] it really merits big-screen viewing if you can catch it.

Why? If want movie seems fit to be seen at home rather than on a big screen, it’s a movie like this.

by Anonymousreply 197December 6, 2023 4:19 PM

My takeaway is that it was a character study of two narcissists and in the end theyre both vile

by Anonymousreply 198December 6, 2023 4:20 PM

Me too R196. He is a little sexpot

by Anonymousreply 199December 6, 2023 4:20 PM

It’s really more February June than May December, right?

by Anonymousreply 200December 6, 2023 4:21 PM

March - August?

by Anonymousreply 201December 6, 2023 4:55 PM

Did anyone else catch when Natalie Portman’s character showed up Julianne Moore didnt say hello or anything, just yelled “I need a minute!” Rude!

by Anonymousreply 202December 6, 2023 5:21 PM

[quote]r185 I didn’t really get that Elizabeth Berry was supposed to be such a bad actress

I didn’t leave with the impression she was a bad performer, either.

I personally found it funny when Elizabeth took a careful note when the ex husband described the initial scandal as “weird.” Like, wouldn’t an outsider look at the scenario that way already? It’s not a specific detail like “her right ring finger would tremble when she was nervous,” or an aspect you’d forget. But Elizabeth studiously writes down “weird.” (Or, I’m assuming that’s what she writes down.)

by Anonymousreply 203December 6, 2023 6:11 PM

I think the fact that the ex-husband used a descriptive word like "weird" instead of "gross" or "vile" or "demeaning" or any number of more predictable responses was worth noting down.

by Anonymousreply 204December 6, 2023 6:16 PM

Hmmm. Yes, I see.

I just laughed. To me it was like someone noting a victim was “scared” as they walked down a dark alleyway. I’d already assume that. But Elizabeth dutifully notes it.

by Anonymousreply 205December 6, 2023 6:37 PM

Like, part of Elizabeth’s character analysis would be, “Husband found it weird she was having sex with a 7th grader” ??

[italic]You’re so astute, little Miss Elizabeth!

by Anonymousreply 206December 6, 2023 8:16 PM

I love the melodramatic music when Elizabeth goes to the back room at the pet store. Like she’s on the verge of discovering something revelatory or gaining some unique insight into Gracie and Joe’s relationship. As if Elizabeth has the capacity to perceive anything beyond the surface. Which she doesn’t because she’s utterly lacking in empathy. And I loved how Haynes revealed that about her. Not just with her seduction of Joe, but also the scene where she’s checking out pics of the potential actors to play Joe. All she cares about is how they look. Not if they exude other qualities like vulnerability or something beyond the surface.

by Anonymousreply 207December 6, 2023 9:29 PM

I bet they loved this movie.

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by Anonymousreply 208December 7, 2023 12:28 AM

Melton got better as the movie progressed. Or maybe he just grew on me.

by Anonymousreply 209December 7, 2023 12:44 AM

Yeah I thought he did a great job ^

by Anonymousreply 210December 7, 2023 12:48 AM

[quote] Not sure what to make of the retakes of the pet shop scene with the snake. Any thoughts?

I was thinking that the retakes indicate that Elizabeth has nothing to bring to the scene other than being seductive because she didn’t really understand Gracie. Elizabeth is so lacking in self-awareness she couldn’t recognize the base narcissism and selfishness in Gracie that mirrors her own narcissism and selfishness.

Like the scene where Elizabeth is so deflated because she thought she had cracked the code of what drives Gracie, but it’s all bullshit. What drives Gracie is that whatever she wants she takes, because she only cares about herself. She’s a terrible person, there’s no big reveal other than that. If Elizabeth wasn’t such a terrible person herself she would have been able to see that.

I am obsessed with this movie, I just think it was so well done.

by Anonymousreply 211December 7, 2023 3:13 AM

I haven't watched this yet (and think i'll probably hold off), but if it was so obviously a re-telling of the MKL story, what was the point of completely changing up the setting/circumstances? What was the thinking/intention in that?

Real question, not trying to be snarky. I'm just trying to understand the point in the whole re-set on how things actually went down.

by Anonymousreply 212December 7, 2023 3:21 AM

Sorry I meant to add that the snake is of course a reference to Satan tempting Eve (and then Eve goes on to tempt Adam) in the garden of Eden. But Satan wasn’t seducing Eve for the purpose of sex, he was doing it for the purpose of corruption. All Elizabeth focuses on is the sexual aspect.

That’s what I think anyway.

by Anonymousreply 213December 7, 2023 3:25 AM

Why does Elizabeth need to “understand” Gracie? It’s an acting job—imitate her. The last scene of filming was tedious, to say the least. Loved the film otherwise.

by Anonymousreply 214December 7, 2023 3:29 AM

[quote]r212 if it was so obviously a re-telling of the MKL story, what was the point of completely changing up the setting/circumstances? What was the thinking/intention in that?

Well, for one thing, if they hadn’t changed aspects of the story they’d have to pay everyone for the right to depict them - unless they wanted to leave themselves open to lawsuits for misrepresenting them.

When they are fictional characters in slightly different circumstances the filmmakers have more leeway.

by Anonymousreply 215December 7, 2023 3:57 AM

I found it sad due to the final scene of the actress shooting the seduction- turns out that all her “research” was lost to a cheesy looking movie- I.e., exploitation. That’s how I interpreted the whole thing. She’s kind of screwed up- bedding the husband to boot. While he and his older wife are better people if not complex and flawed.

by Anonymousreply 216December 7, 2023 4:04 AM

[quote]R214 Why does Elizabeth need to “understand” Gracie? It’s an acting job—imitate her.

Most actors see themselves as more than someone simply doing impressions. They want to illuminate another individual’s psychology.

by Anonymousreply 217December 7, 2023 4:08 AM

[quote]I am obsessed with this movie, I just think it was so well done.

* pressing hands together *

Thank you. It means the world.

by Anonymousreply 218December 7, 2023 4:12 AM

I cannot understand the praise for this movie.

Two stars for the lisp.

by Anonymousreply 219December 7, 2023 4:25 AM

Agree 👆🏼 Don’t understand the praise for this movie. What does it mean that 5 different posters have 5 different interpretations of the last scene. Each of them plausible, none of them definitive. I find it hard to praise something so unclear.

by Anonymousreply 220December 7, 2023 4:55 AM

I’m not sure the incest stuff was bullshit. Just because the son said it and Gracie knew he said it doesn’t mean it wasn’t true. Gracie herself calls it a disgusting story, but I don’t remember her contradicting it. On the contrary, I could see her actually telling her older kids that story to help justify what she did.

by Anonymousreply 221December 7, 2023 5:21 AM

Thank you! What the fuck is everyone else smoking? This movie is a 2.5/5 Hallmark Channel-esque with typical trope seen before. I've seen more engrossing After school specials in the 80s.

I don't think the MKL story is great at all considering it really happened to a young boy. It should have showed how it deeply affected that innocent young man. Instead it was about some bitches and most people are fawning over them because they're big name actors.

Fuck everyone who thinks this film is some fascinating highbrow masterpiece. I don't want your opinion on anything!

by Anonymousreply 222December 7, 2023 5:26 AM

I found the final encounter between the two women to be rushed. I would have liked more, there. The business with Gracie going out with her shotgun was vague to me, as well. What does she finally see, a fox? I can guess she sees that as a symbol of both herself and the intruder, Elizabeth (?) That could have been clearer.

It’s a very interesting film, nonetheless. I’ll watch it again. I don’t ADORE Todd Haynes but I do respect him. His ideas always strike me as more gripping than the finished product. I found this more intriguing than his other works. I wish I knew nothing about it before watching, so it could really take me over instinctively.

by Anonymousreply 223December 7, 2023 5:28 AM

Something that was disturbing to me is when Portman is watching the audition tapes for the young actor and they are around 12. That brings the horror home.

by Anonymousreply 224December 7, 2023 8:55 AM

[quote]It should have showed how it deeply affected that innocent young man.

Um... it does. It's one of the spines of the movie. Did you even see it?

by Anonymousreply 225December 7, 2023 11:52 AM

This is what happens when the type of movie that would normally play arthouse theaters and be watched by the crowd that enjoys subtle, indie filmmaking is on Netflix. This type of filmmaking isn't for everyone.

by Anonymousreply 226December 7, 2023 12:56 PM

Comic book films aren’t for everyone either. I am beyond sick of that shit and happy to see a bit of fatigue setting in. I am happy Netflix has films like these, because going to any theater is unpleasant and overpriced.

by Anonymousreply 227December 7, 2023 1:02 PM

[quote] What does it mean that 5 different posters have 5 different interpretations of the last scene. Each of them plausible, none of them definitive. I find it hard to praise something so unclear.

What it means is that the filmmaker wanted the audience to think, evaluate what was on screen and interpret it based on their own intellect and experience. Much like life, not everything is subject to only one explanation.

by Anonymousreply 228December 7, 2023 1:10 PM

some movie viewers want everything crystal clear. the movie is the directors message for the audience to contemplate. they dont enjoy ambiguity thank u kindly.

by Anonymousreply 229December 7, 2023 1:18 PM

the young husband was a 3 pump chump

by Anonymousreply 230December 7, 2023 1:19 PM

[quote]some movie viewers want everything crystal clear.

some movie viewers want jumbo tubs of popcorn with extra butter.

by Anonymousreply 231December 7, 2023 2:16 PM

R230 sometimes my husband is a three pump chump and we have been together 19 years.

by Anonymousreply 232December 7, 2023 2:21 PM

I think I’d be ok with a 3-pump chump that looked like Charles Melton

by Anonymousreply 233December 7, 2023 3:00 PM

Charles Melton's face is all smooshed in. I don't get all the lust here.

by Anonymousreply 234December 7, 2023 3:02 PM

Yes he looks like the Walmart version of a young Jason Mamoa

by Anonymousreply 235December 7, 2023 4:06 PM

Natalie Portman is looking rough

by Anonymousreply 236December 7, 2023 4:08 PM

WEHT that Hawaiian stud from the first season of WHITE LOTUS? Can't remember his name but he was so much hotter than this Melton guy.

by Anonymousreply 237December 7, 2023 5:13 PM

melton is superhot. he was on that teenish drama on CW11 where he shows his hot bod. I can't remember the name of it but I watched it for a few season years ago. That's where I first noticed him.

by Anonymousreply 238December 7, 2023 7:20 PM

MKL was sexually abused as a child according to her best friend. If you end up as fucked in the head as she was - you obviously have some sort of trauma. The right wing fundie dad with a secret second family + childhood sex abuse would do it.

by Anonymousreply 239December 7, 2023 7:54 PM

Portman was having serious issues in her marriage during filming and she smokes. She is looking really weathered.

by Anonymousreply 240December 7, 2023 7:55 PM

I wasn't going to watch it since I don't like the subject matter but people here were raving about it. It was a waste of my time.

by Anonymousreply 241December 7, 2023 8:05 PM

MKL was also unmedicated bipolar. Part of her original plea deal was to take her bipolar meds but she stopped taking them

by Anonymousreply 242December 7, 2023 8:46 PM

Next time R241 trust your instincts. And also, grow a spine.

by Anonymousreply 243December 7, 2023 9:59 PM

R225 yes, and I was anticipating a good movie instead I witnessed overrated horseshit of the most depressing subject matter. You won't be talking about this film in a few years.

You'll talk about it as much as Birth with Nicole Kidman was talked about and then it will wane because it's not particularly good, it's simply controversial.

Break down what he want through. I've never seen 2 more boring characters I couldn't give a fuck about.

by Anonymousreply 244December 8, 2023 1:30 AM

[quote]What does it mean that 5 different posters have 5 different interpretations of the last scene. Each of them plausible, none of them definitive. I find it hard to praise something so unclear.

Damn, gay men really have fallen as the premier arbiters and consumers of culture.

"I don't like to think! I need a movie to spell everything out for me!" is an actual point of criticism on DL.

If ambiguity bothers you as a storytelling technique so much, you might want to avoid Shakespeare, Henry James, Joseph Conrad, J.D. Salinger, Kate Chopin, Nabokov, F. Scott Fitzgerald. Or real life. You know, if thinking about the perception of experience (a.k.a. unreliable narrators) is too heavy a lift.

by Anonymousreply 245December 8, 2023 2:10 AM

Hey R245 your seeming rage re: questioning the confusion and ambiguity of the movie is misplaced. Not ambiguity but lazy, unfocused and specious provocation are the chief complaints. Neat that you tossed Todd Haynes into the pile of some of the greatest writers in history, though. That’s…special.

by Anonymousreply 246December 8, 2023 3:11 AM

R245 Are you new? The average cultural sophistication on DL circled the drain years ago and is now a fetid dark lowbrow gelatinous blob in the sewer.

by Anonymousreply 247December 8, 2023 3:19 AM

You're not a close reader, R246, are you?

I didn't compare Haynes to the great writers of history. (And btw, he didn't write the movie.) I simply said those writers employed ambiguity and let readers sort things out for themselves. Because that seems to be a complaint against this movie, it's a PSA—avoid if it's not for you!

How exactly is May December "lazy, unfocused, and specious"? I would love to read your specific analysis.

Because I thought it was richly evocative and thought-provoking. My favorite kind of movie.

by Anonymousreply 248December 8, 2023 3:19 AM

It’s generated 247 replies in a short time—for a small “indy” film—there must be something interesting and worthwhile there to get so many interesting comments.

by Anonymousreply 249December 8, 2023 3:30 AM

Some of us didn’t like the movie for various reasons — and that seemed to infuriate you — your response to questioning is to chastise and belittle those who aren’t on exactly the same page. mean you’re basically saying if I can’t appreciate the ambiguity of May December (the way you seem to) there is something fundamentally and profoundly wrong with me. That I shouldn’t waste my time on Shakespeare or Hemingway or Nabokov or Fitzgerald et al. Lighten up. Do you only come here to seek agreement? I’m sincerely interested that so many were engaged by the movie. I wasn’t. I guess we’ll both have to find a way to live through this, huh? JFC.

by Anonymousreply 250December 8, 2023 3:45 AM

It’s so apt that the oldest child, born in prison, is grandiosely named Honor. You can just imagine Gracie holding her head (ridiculously) high and knowing all the papers will print this.

by Anonymousreply 251December 8, 2023 4:15 AM

Meet Charles Melton

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by Anonymousreply 252December 8, 2023 7:17 AM

I don't like Natalie Portman as an actor and this role didn't help.

by Anonymousreply 253December 8, 2023 7:44 AM

Oh, I thought she was (sickeningly) perfect.

by Anonymousreply 254December 8, 2023 8:40 AM

[quote]I don't like Natalie Portman as an actor and this role didn't help.

But do you like her as an actress?

by Anonymousreply 255December 8, 2023 9:07 AM

[quote]Damn, gay men really have fallen as the premier arbiters and consumers of culture.

[quote]"I don't like to think! I need a movie to spell everything out for me!" is an actual point of criticism on DL.

That reminds me, I recently watched some young people react to the CABARET film and one of the things they said was, "This movie's confusing. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel or think."

And they thought "Tomorrow Belongs to Me" was glorifying Nazis and hated that scene.

by Anonymousreply 256December 8, 2023 9:12 AM

[quote]When Georgie talks about his Birthday party and the one friend that comes over that he gives a hand job to and then never speaks to again, was that Joe?

I don't think it could have been because he said that the party was right after the scandal was discovered so no way would Joe have been allowed to go.

by Anonymousreply 257December 8, 2023 9:46 AM

[quote]Not sure what to make of the retakes of the pet shop scene with the snake. Any thoughts?

Like others, I read it as that she was struggling to act it well, perhaps because Gracie had thrown her idea of her character but also it was funny because it showed that she was a bad actress in a crappy B-list/TV style movie which contrasts with how seriously she took herself and her acting.

Ultimately a lot of the movie was dark comedy.

by Anonymousreply 258December 8, 2023 9:51 AM

I agree with your interpretation r258 and want to add that Elizabeth had promised to make the movie respectful of Gracie, Joe and their relationship.

And then proceeded to make what looks like exploitive crap.

by Anonymousreply 259December 8, 2023 12:36 PM

Let me say if it had been about Macron and his wife in France it might have been interesting.

Not bumfuck, sick predator MKL.

by Anonymousreply 260December 8, 2023 2:12 PM

Charles Melton sounds like a bit of a dingbat in that NYT interview.

But a beautiful dingbat!

by Anonymousreply 261December 8, 2023 2:51 PM

"Notes on a Scandal" was another Oscar-bait film inspired by Mary Kay Letourneau, right down to making the boy an aspiring artist.

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by Anonymousreply 262December 8, 2023 2:51 PM

How did MKL raise her first baby in jail? How long was her sentence?

by Anonymousreply 263December 8, 2023 3:17 PM

Vili’s mom raised the babies until MKL was sprung from the pokey^^

by Anonymousreply 264December 8, 2023 3:31 PM

An omen of the many Oscar moments to come for old Pete

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by Anonymousreply 265December 8, 2023 4:53 PM

^^ for that other thread nearby

by Anonymousreply 266December 8, 2023 4:54 PM

Bitches, go watch “The Naughty List” ep on “American Horror Stories”! Season 1

by Anonymousreply 267December 9, 2023 7:13 AM

I saw this at a film festival a month or so ago, and I have now watched it twice on Netflix. I fucking love it and catch new things each time. Julianne is truly brilliant in this.

Julianne and Natalie were on Andy Cohen’s show last week and they were fun. Cory Michael Smith, who plays Gracie’s son from her first marriage, was the guest bartender. He is SO cute. (And a great actor)

by Anonymousreply 268December 9, 2023 1:30 PM

R268 Anything interesting you've caught that hasn't been mentioned? I do like how this movie has generated plenty of interesting discussion!

by Anonymousreply 269December 9, 2023 5:41 PM

Oh truly R68. May December really struck a chord with its subtle moments. Julianne Moore's handling of the carrots in the kitchen was a nuanced delight, akin to watching someone master a craft. Natalie Portman's gaze at the pet shop's fish tank felt like a quiet connection with nature, and the singer son interaction at the restaurant echoed the warmth of a family gathering.

The deer hunting scenes held a symbolic depth, representing life's transitions, much like the graduation and rooftop Doobie scene. Throughout the film, hidden gems abound, inviting the audience to uncover layers of meaning. "May December" isn't just a movie; it's a contemplative experience that resonates with genuine emotion about victimization of a male by two narcissistic women in the months of May and December.

by Anonymousreply 270December 9, 2023 6:45 PM

[quote]in the months of May and December

I thought May December referred to the relationship of a young person with an older person?

by Anonymousreply 271December 9, 2023 11:02 PM

Shhh you’ll show R270 how dumb he actually is

by Anonymousreply 272December 9, 2023 11:03 PM

The French Film and TV industry seems entirely too chic and mondain to make a Macron biopic including 15 yo Emmanuel and 40 yo Brigitte. Pity!

by Anonymousreply 273December 9, 2023 11:15 PM

R270 wins this month's purple prose award.

by Anonymousreply 274December 9, 2023 11:17 PM

When I heard the music, I kept thinking, "What's that from?" I thought it was from a French film from the 60s or 70s. It really threw me out of the movie every time it came on, and when I saw it was from "The Go-Between" I thought at least steal from a worse film, not a better one.

by Anonymousreply 275December 9, 2023 11:20 PM

R274 are you sure R270 isn't taking the piss?

by Anonymousreply 276December 9, 2023 11:22 PM

That was certainly my assumption, r276.

by Anonymousreply 277December 9, 2023 11:53 PM

Charles Melton shows hole in his sex scene.

by Anonymousreply 278December 10, 2023 12:10 AM

Boring despite Moore being on point.

by Anonymousreply 279December 10, 2023 12:12 AM

Two sociopaths and one pathetic victim. There still has to be more to the story. I did appreciate that the three kids from the second marriage seemed like decent people.

by Anonymousreply 280December 10, 2023 2:50 AM

I did not see Melton’s dick. Can someone do a screenshot? Also I have never heard of The Go-Between until this thread. Was that a famous, acclaimed movie?!

by Anonymousreply 281December 10, 2023 2:41 PM

It was a prosthetic anyway, so not very interesting.

[quote]Charles Melton is opening up about wearing a prosthetic for a scene in his new movie May December. The 32-year-old actor stars as Joe Yoo in the Netflix film, and one of the final scenes they filmed was a sexual encounter with Natalie Portman‘s Elizabeth Berry, which required him to wear a prosthetic. “It was very professional,” Charles told Variety about filming the scene. “The whole thing. Natalie, Todd [Haynes, director], and I met to discuss the scene, walking through it and ensuring everybody was comfortable. There were a few conversations about the prosthetic, regarding what was realistic and what wasn’t.” He also revealed, “I had to wear that prosthetic for nine hours that day. I didn’t have anything to drink that morning or the night before. That was an annoying process but still very respectful.”

by Anonymousreply 282December 10, 2023 2:46 PM

Ooh, these young actors take themselves sooooooo seriously. ^^^^^^^^^^

by Anonymousreply 283December 10, 2023 3:20 PM

I love the 'what was realistic or not' comment. Realistic would be his real dick! Not some mega long prosthetic.

by Anonymousreply 284December 10, 2023 3:22 PM

Is this based on Mary Kay Letourneau?

by Anonymousreply 285December 10, 2023 3:23 PM

Well in the movie scene it was erect r284. Anytime you have an erection in a mainstream production it is always be prosthetic.

If want the actual actor to go full frontal, that's going to be flaccid

by Anonymousreply 286December 10, 2023 3:32 PM

The Go-Between film is famous as a British classic, but not famous like Titanic or The Sound of Music. It's a must-see for its perfect cast of Alan Bates, Julie Christie and Margaret Leighton. Still not sure why Haynes used its score for MD.

by Anonymousreply 287December 10, 2023 3:33 PM

Be nice to me. I went to the effort of getting the split second of Joe's prosthetic dick. Side note: I didn't like how dark half of this movie was but maybe I'm half-blind.

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by Anonymousreply 288December 10, 2023 3:39 PM

Thank you R 288🥰

by Anonymousreply 289December 10, 2023 4:27 PM

R287 the director likes that stuff. In Far From Heaven, he had Elmer Bernstein come in late to write the score. During the editing process, Todd did the basic cut of the movie using the score from To Kill a Mockingbird as a placeholder. The original trailer shown in theaters actually used the main theme from Mockingbird.

by Anonymousreply 290December 10, 2023 4:32 PM

The piano theme sounded like something you would hear on an Unsolved Mysteries type show from the 90s.

by Anonymousreply 291December 10, 2023 7:39 PM

R287 - you forgot the godawful Dominic Guard who was the literal go-between. He stunk up Picnic at Hanging Rock too.

by Anonymousreply 292December 10, 2023 10:41 PM

Julie Christie and Alan Bates were both at the height of their beauty and sexual power n The Go-Between. But yes, the kid was awful.

by Anonymousreply 293December 10, 2023 10:54 PM

From the little I've gleaned through various articles and interviews, the dynamics of the production were as fascinating and complex as the story they portrayed. It's incredible to think that Natalie Portman is responsible for bringing the script to Todd Haynes, knowing what a juicy role it would be for her in his hands, and banking on Haynes calling in Julianne to fill in the blank-- she's a smart cookie. I was also surprised to learn that the lisp was Julianne Moore's creation, which not only brought another layer of depraved depth to her character, but gave Natalie something to play with throughout the course of the film. Brilliant. Haynes, Portland, and Moore are at the top of their game.

by Anonymousreply 294December 12, 2023 8:21 PM

Well, some feel that Eugene has it all over Portland.

by Anonymousreply 295December 12, 2023 10:49 PM

[quote]. Boring despite Moore being on point

What does on point even mean?

by Anonymousreply 296December 12, 2023 10:56 PM

on point

idiom, informal

as good as it could be; perfect

by Anonymousreply 297December 12, 2023 11:02 PM

“The Go Between” is a story about an adolescent boy who is manipulated into enabling an illicit romance between two adults. He is used by them and confused by his complicated feelings about it.

by Anonymousreply 298December 13, 2023 3:48 AM

I finally saw The Go-Between a few months ago on Tubi. It’s a great film.

by Anonymousreply 299December 13, 2023 4:07 AM

R294 you described nothing complex and, well, fascinating is a personal matter.

by Anonymousreply 300December 13, 2023 4:53 AM

[quote]the director likes that stuff. In Far From Heaven, he had Elmer Bernstein come in late to write the score.

And as usual, his instincts were right-on. The Far From Heaven score was so beautiful I bought the soundtrack, and I hadn't bought a film score in years.

That first swell in the main theme, when the full orchestra comes in—wow.

And that's not even speaking to how effective it was dramatically.

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by Anonymousreply 301December 13, 2023 5:18 AM

R268

Cory Michael Smith is indeed a sexy thing & he has a big dick.

by Anonymousreply 302December 13, 2023 5:18 AM

Does Andy accept 37 yo bartenders? Also where can is see Cory's size meat?

by Anonymousreply 303December 13, 2023 5:30 AM

oh never mind, found it

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by Anonymousreply 304December 13, 2023 5:33 AM

Cory is otherwise sexy and a good actor, but that's an ugly dick.

by Anonymousreply 305December 13, 2023 7:05 AM

[quote]r301 …that's not even speaking to how effective [FAR FROM HEAVEN] was dramatically.

TRIVIA: The actress who plays one of Moore’s friends in that movie played Kelly Rippa’s mother on ALL MY CHILDREN.

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by Anonymousreply 306December 13, 2023 7:17 AM
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by Anonymousreply 307December 13, 2023 7:21 AM

Can "fun" and Todd Haynes be in the same sentence

Fine, (sigh) I'll watch it

by Anonymousreply 308December 13, 2023 7:21 AM

Goodness, they really were scraping the bottom of the barrel of New York day players at that point, weren't they?

She couldn't beat MY cameo in Ordinary People, R306.

by Anonymousreply 309December 13, 2023 7:34 AM

A little RESPECT!

She was also in “The Bone Collector”!

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by Anonymousreply 310December 13, 2023 8:15 AM

With all the presence of a corpse, R310.

by Anonymousreply 311December 13, 2023 8:19 AM

Well, you have forced me to bring out the big guns:

wordy Symbicort commercial

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by Anonymousreply 312December 13, 2023 8:39 AM

I'd rather die, R312!

And did!

by Anonymousreply 313December 13, 2023 8:43 AM

Forget ORDINARY PEOPLE - No one can top your bit making tea and getting stabbed in the opening of EYES OF LAURA MARS, Meg.

The whole world knows it. You really set the whole tone for that thing.

(signed) Arlene Vaughan II

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by Anonymousreply 314December 13, 2023 8:56 AM

EXCUSE ME, R314, but Miss Hubbard and I are not the same person.

But it must be said—I made much more of an impression in Ordinary People (as "antisemitic grandmother") and The Doctors than she.

by Anonymousreply 315December 13, 2023 9:03 AM

It seems like Melton is a lock for supporting Oscar. I would still rather see RDJ win for Oppenheimer

by Anonymousreply 316December 13, 2023 12:55 PM

Is WHITE COLLAR worth watching? Never heard of it until this thread.

by Anonymousreply 317December 13, 2023 1:24 PM

Doesn’t it say something that out of Natalie Portman, Julianne Moore (Far From Heaven, Safe and this) and Cate Blanchett that the first actor to win an Oscar for a Todd Haynes film is….Charles Melton?!?!?

by Anonymousreply 318December 13, 2023 1:52 PM

Well, he hasn't won yet.

by Anonymousreply 319December 13, 2023 3:15 PM

Melton is so hot. I hope he does full frontal in near future.

by Anonymousreply 320December 16, 2023 5:03 PM

Charles Melton will be nominated, and will get a leading man's career out of this 9a better reward than an oscar), but the Oscar for Best Supporting Actor is pretty much completely locked up for RDJ for "Oppenheimer." It's a superb performance, and Hollywood has always wanted to reward him for her great comeback after the prison term.

by Anonymousreply 321December 17, 2023 3:13 AM

[quote] With this I felt confused, like I was watching Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman incorporate the Mary Kay Letourneau story. Why? Just to show that life is sick and sad sometimes?

I know! I felt the same way about this old movie I saw this weekend where I felt like I was watching Orson Welles and Joseph Cotton incorporate the William Randolph Hearst/Marion Davies thing for the same pathetic reason. How dare they.

by Anonymousreply 322December 17, 2023 3:15 AM

The scene at the dress shop where Portman and Moore watch the daughter try on graduation dresses was just brilliant. The cinematography was incredible (with Moore duplicated in the reflection and then triplicated by Portman's mirroring her mannerisms), the writing was splendid (with Gracie becoming furious at Elizabeth for going behind her back, and lashing out with those sweetly delivered but cruel passive-aggressive comments about her daughter's bared arms), and all three women (including the unknown who played the daughter!) could not have been better.

I really loved the complexity of both of the central women characters. They were both control freaks who dared not show it openly, and so did so by demanding attention from and controlling others while all the time pretending not to. It was inevitable Gracie was a child predator and that Elizabeth preyed on the emotionally childlike Joe.

by Anonymousreply 323December 17, 2023 3:23 AM

[quote] Someone upthread mentioned the "twist" confrontation ending between Gracie and Elizabeth at the graduation. Whatever information is supposed to be revealed by Gracie's insisting that she talks to her son every day and Elizabeth's full body shudder and bag adjustment was lost on me. What's implied by that interaction?

That's been variously explained here, but it's clear that the son from the first marriage, Georgie, has become twisted enough as to be every bit as manipulative and as fucked-up as his mother is. (His nastiness to his band members because of their perceived inadequacies echoed Gracie's nastiness to her daughters by Joe because of what she perceived as their weight problems.) When he saw his attempt to blackmail Elizabeth into getting the music supervisor job had failed, he switched sides yet again and went right back to his mother and told her what he had done. She was furious with Elizabeth for talking to Georgie, and told her that Georgie had made up the story about the incest with her brothers so as to undermine Elizabeth's confidence.... and she succeeded. Gracie's character is deeply insecure, but she has a personality disorder so she mimics a fake insecurity to elicit sympathy from others. She cares only about herself, as someone else pointed out above. Elizabeth is on her way to becoming another Gracie, much like in Bergman's "Persona" which is about an actress and the person she's studying merging into one (it's a favorite film of Todd Haynes, and also Darren Aronofsky, who also riffed on it in another Natalie Portman film, "Black Swan").

One of Haynes's points here seems to be security and insecurity can be so easily performed that it can impossible to tell which is which, sometimes even by the person exhibiting them. this is pretty true if you know someone who has a serious personality disorder, incidentally--they can mimic being deeply confident and being deeply insecure as it suits their needs.

It's also why it's so hard to tell whether or not Elizabeth's big delivery of the monologue is good or just a cheap imitation of how Gracie would have said it--Gracie is as much an actress (and always has been) as Elizabeth is, so it's a professionally trained and beautiful (but probably not very good) actress trying to be convincing mimicking an amateur but beautiful older woman who had herself been acting a part in order to hoodwink Joe into loving her.

Was Gracie actually sexually abused as a child by her older brothers? Probably. But I think Haynes and the screenwriters always drop plenty of clues that Gracie in turn sexually abused her younger brothers too, just as she sexually abused Joe and continus to manipulate him (and probably continues to sexually abuse Georgie and manipulates him).

[quote]I noticed the lisp came and went and wondered if Julianne was unable to keep it up or if Gracie used it to manipulate those around her by acting more innocent than she really was. It was most obvious in emotionally-charged scenes.

That was one of my favorite things in the movie. I read in an interview that the come-and-go lisp was Julianne Moore's idea. It's sort of like the breathy baby voices both Marilyn Monroe and Jackie Kennedy would affect when they knew cameras were on them, but which they dropped when the mics were no longer hot.

by Anonymousreply 324December 17, 2023 6:37 AM

I think that the end showed us that Elizabeth just did not know how to play Gracie. Hanging out with her just fucked her up instead of giving her insight or inspiration.

by Anonymousreply 325December 17, 2023 1:26 PM

I thought it showed too that between the two, Gracie was by far the better actress.

by Anonymousreply 326December 17, 2023 4:27 PM

It's interesting how the film also evoked "Mulholland Drive," which is another film inspired by "Persona." Elizabeth's monologue reading the letter in front of the mirror reminded me so much of the big audition scene between Naomi Watts and Chad Everett in the Lynch film.

by Anonymousreply 327December 17, 2023 5:30 PM

Just saw it, now I'll read the thread and hopefully post an insightful, interesting comment.

by Anonymousreply 328December 22, 2023 6:35 AM

Is the Joe character mentally retarded?

by Anonymousreply 329December 22, 2023 6:58 AM

R329 likely low IQ like a large portion of the human race

by Anonymousreply 330December 22, 2023 1:14 PM

He was interested in insects and worked as a radiologist, I think, so he can't have been totally dumb but he did seem a bit slow and out of touch with his emotions.

by Anonymousreply 331December 22, 2023 1:19 PM

Yet you a totally dumb for thinking he was an M.D. ^R331

by Anonymousreply 332December 22, 2023 5:26 PM

R332 Huh? Read what I wrote again.

by Anonymousreply 333December 22, 2023 5:29 PM

[quote]The French Film and TV industry seems entirely too chic and mondain to make a Macron biopic including 15 yo Emmanuel and 40 yo Brigitte. Pity!

There isn't much to their story.

His parents sent him away until he came of age, so they didn't consummate their relationship until after he had graduated from school and were not married until he was 30.

Vili was 7 when he was a student in Mary's second-grade class and 12 when he was in her sixth-grade class..

They had sex shortly before he became a teenager and she gave birth to their first child when he was 13 and 15 for the second one.

Mary got out of prison when Vili was 21 and married him shortly thereafter.

by Anonymousreply 334December 22, 2023 5:46 PM

[quote]Charles Melton will be nominated, and will get a leading man's career out of this 9a better reward than an oscar), but the Oscar for Best Supporting Actor is pretty much completely locked up for RDJ for "Oppenheimer." It's a superb performance, and Hollywood has always wanted to reward him for her great comeback after the prison term.

Agreed.

Had Heath Ledger not died in 2008, RDJ would most definitely have won that year.

He had a banner year with the smash hits IRON MAN and TROPIC THUNDER, being nominated for the latter.

Plus, the Academy has rarely awarded twentysomething male actors.

And RDJ had the comeback narrative, since only a few years prior he was persona non grata in the industry due to his legal/drug issues.

by Anonymousreply 335December 22, 2023 5:55 PM

R333 you wrote that the character worked as a radiologist. He did not. He was not a doctor. Duh.

by Anonymousreply 336December 22, 2023 6:28 PM

R336 Is this some kind of language difference? (I am not American.)

by Anonymousreply 337December 22, 2023 6:33 PM

A radiologist is a medical doctor. The end.

by Anonymousreply 338December 22, 2023 6:34 PM

👀

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by Anonymousreply 339December 22, 2023 6:35 PM

[quote] The French Film and TV industry seems entirely too chic and mondain

Oh, dear!

by Anonymousreply 340December 22, 2023 7:34 PM

It seems r331 meant radiology technician, not radiologist.

But we all knew that, right?

by Anonymousreply 341December 22, 2023 10:04 PM

R331 didn’t…

by Anonymousreply 342December 22, 2023 11:37 PM

I did.

by Anonymousreply 343December 24, 2023 2:06 AM

Jesus, some of you are so obsessive. Move on already r342.

by Anonymousreply 344December 24, 2023 2:44 AM

I got the impression that in the scene at the bar with Georgie and Elizabeth, George was more wrecked by the revelation that his middle school friend Joe was in love with Georgie's mother and not with him.

by Anonymousreply 345December 28, 2023 3:39 PM

Sad news! The big dong of Charles Melton was a prosthetic.

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by Anonymousreply 346January 1, 2024 2:44 PM

Late to the party, but I watched this last night and was really impressed with it. Great performances all around. The ominous piano score was kind of funny at times, as were the occasional moments of camp like the zoom in on Gracie that ended with "I don't think we have enough hot dogs."

The film is kind of brilliant in how subtle it makes its points about the characters and the world they inhabit. So many of the film's major plot points are open to interpretation (as this thread proves). Gracie is a self-absorbed sociopath who plays the innocent card to get out of trouble (or not). Elizabeth is a terrible actress who thinks she's doing high art but is really just making a schlocky B-movie. Joe has clearly never been allowed to mature beyond age 12.

I'm not sure if I'll revisit this film anytime soon, but I do think it's worth the watch.

by Anonymousreply 347January 1, 2024 7:12 PM

I didn't care for it at all and find it surprising that it's getting any attention.

by Anonymousreply 348January 1, 2024 8:13 PM

R348, what’s your favorite movie of 2023?

by Anonymousreply 349January 1, 2024 8:23 PM

When Elizabeth says “Thank you. It means the world to me!” at the dinner table it was one of the most authentic portrayals of a Hollywood actress that I have ever seen in anything.

by Anonymousreply 350January 1, 2024 11:39 PM

Re-watched this for the fourth or fifth time and Gracie makes my skin crawl more each time.

by Anonymousreply 351January 3, 2024 6:06 AM

I'm curious if Charles Melton will get more work because of this, or whether it's going to be a one-time thing for him.

He's really handsome sometimes and looks really odd at others. It would be odd for him to get more character parts like this, because as good as he looks like an action hero--but it may be that he's getting too old for those.

by Anonymousreply 352January 15, 2024 9:46 PM

He has this in pre-production:

K-Pop: Lost in America

Just days before their American debut at Madison Square Garden, a K-Pop group finds themselves mistakenly stranded in Waco, Texas. In order to make it to New York City, the group must overcome their differences.

by Anonymousreply 353January 16, 2024 3:10 AM

[quote]That's been variously explained here, but it's clear that the son from the first marriage, Georgie, has become twisted enough as to be every bit as manipulative and as fucked-up as his mother is.

R324 I was really struck by how underneath it all, to me, he seemed angry and fed up with how his family/the controversy has remained a subject of fascination for the media/entertainment industry and the public. So, how he deals with the Elizabeths et al. is by fucking with them. He feels contempt and resentment, but he expresses it with this wry amusement.

by Anonymousreply 354January 22, 2024 2:07 PM
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