The Gilded Age Series 2 Part I

that's a great GIF

Heavens to Betsy, OP. That gif is animal abuse.

nasty kitty

I support the use of this properly labeled thread to continue. I’m a stickler for good order.

Things moved awfully quickly in this episode. Probably a good thing, but still somewhat jarring.

So glad we had new developments in the riveting alarm clock storyline!

Episode Four.

Idk if I could take seeing Agnes ruin Ada’s relationship with Forte. It would turn me off the show.

They need to show more gay nudity and more scandals!

How could it possibly be proper for a Ms. Brooks to marry the son of an Italian immigrant?

Meanwhile where is Maeve’s lady companion? I believe she’s been mentioned, but we haven’t seen her.

Speaking of lady companions, Turner must take her husband for an idiot given that the Russells have a son in his twenties. Did they meet in Europe? Maybe that’s how she finagled not being found out during the courtship.

I doubt it was just an accounting problem with the new Opera house. It seems to me there was a fair amount of financial subterfuge, perhaps cloaked by superficial romance, going on in this episode.

Will John Adams return? I like him

Ok - spoiler spoiler spoiler but do you think the Robert Sean Leonard thing is real OR are we going to go in the direction of “The Heiress?” Cynthia Nixon is best when “wronged.” he asked her the question awfully fast. plus we haven’t had scenes of his private life to know his side. If those two get together he is kind of another “Steve.”

Yeah, the Winterton doesn't know about his wife is so fraudulent. Rich old widowers always have Helpful Hannahs around to peer suspiciously into the past of any young woman coming around and trying to slip her way into the family fortune. If not a daughter, some niece or sister who is not about to let some bitch horn in on that inheritance, especially when it's so close.

What was that business with Celia K-B and the piano? Just as she was about to burst into a Broadway show tune she was interrupted by the gay chef asking her out.

And Turner - she sure accomplished an awful lot in that year she went missing.

I noticed that, too Re Celia K Bolger. You wonder after seeing how large Kelli O’Hara’s part is and then Laura Benanti coming in strong - you wonder if Celia said “Ok - my turn!” …… Why do I get a sinking feeling that Sutton Foster is going to turn up as Molly Brown soon!

OP, are you a limey? This is SEASON 2, not Series 2.

Did George secretly pay for the Met to resume construction?

OMG—OP is a Brit! What do we do?

And not only did OP call it “Series 2” instead of “Season 2,” but he labeled this “Part 1” even though it’s our fourth thread of Season 2. Let’s face it, the characters (and Julian) would be pleased that we use a British term instead of an American one. (Look how they fawn over a non-Royal Duke), But nobody likes inaccuracy. Least of all our Jack.

R11 I have some unease about this pairing too. I hope he is genuine and that the story focuses on Agnes grudgingly accepting him. But I fear for Ada. Maybe Marian can ask Cousin Dashiell to investigate? And if Agnes and Ada quarrel maybe Agnes will threaten to change her will so Ada gets nothing. After all let her new hubby take care of her. I hope the guy isn't after $$ but I fear he may be.

I think the rector is dying and he knows it. Hence the tears when he proposed to to Ada.

R18, did you cum over that? It looks like you came.

Against considerable odds, sexy.

I hope the reverend is on the level, or Agnes will be painfully smug.

I'm getting second-hand stress worrying about what's going to happen to Peggy in the south.

[quote][R18], did you cum over that? It looks like you came.

I beg your pardon?

I am worried about that too r22. I haven't really worried about anybody else, even Aunt Ada. What will happen will happen. But with Peggy it's making me nervous. Something awful I assume.

R20 I can't figure the Rector thing out either.... way too forward, too fast. But he's not playing it like some fortune hunter. His rubbing her finger and her gasping was actually kind of hot, I thot.

This series seemed pretty dry and shallow for the first season, but it's getting juicy. We do need more Homo Sex though... I am hoping the Duke is actually an invert.

Of all the theatah actors working on this show I think Donna Murphy comes off best. She brings so much to every scene she's in as opposed to Nathan Lane who sucks the air out of his scenes.

I still can't understand WTF they were on when they cast Nathan Lane as a Southern gent.

r26, Donna Murphy ALWAYS brings it in everything she does. I love her! Nathan Lane makes me want to have Uber Eats bring me some KFC.

Honestly, I’m kinda rooting for the gold digging former maid. Bertha Russell needs to get checked. Her and her hot husband winning all the time is not good writing and in time will become boring.

R20 - you’re right! I bet he is dying! He talked a lot about his mother and putting his life on hold until she died. The way he urgently told Ada that she still had plenty of time for more in her life …..

Where the man butts at?

Oooo OP , the gif was Great.

After all that talk and anticipation about the Duke of Buckingham, that was the best actor they could find? For one thing, he looks too old.

And kinda fatty.

Butter-faced Duke of Buck!

Duke of Butterface

The Duke was, physically, more of an Oscar Wilde.

I fear Ada will be left at the altar.

R38. Or realize she's a late in life lesbian.

The young Russell looks very pretty without his shirt in a bed

Is the house keeper a secret musician?

I adore this episode

I couldn't help but giggle watching those two ski noses in bed together.

R29. I want to see Bertha AND George humbled.

I want to see them BOTH fuck turner

Alarm clock to tell the servants it's time to serve the soup.

Better get a patent on that, Alarm Clock Jack, everyone will want one.

Mrs. Astor will get the biggest one - and Bertha will make George buy her Big Ben.

Well , as I have been watching some video documentary type stuff on You Tube, I gather that the Astors were definitely OLD money, and the Russells represent the Vanderbilts who the Astors considered "new money" and didn't want to let them be part of high society. But them after some time, they gave in. So The Russells aren't going to get a come uppance if they are prototypes for Vanderbilts. I hope if the Russell son has a kid they name him Anderson.

R47 the series makes pastiche of history but that's the general story. Note that the Vanderbilts are mentioned as coexisting in this fictional story, with the Russels, and the two families, along with for example the Goelets, are not yet at the top of society, as mentioned in S1. Also the Debutante Ball for the Russel daughter is a pastiche of the important historical event - "Mrs. Vanderbilt's Ball" - you can google that and read about it. It's when Vanderbilt successfully played Mrs. Astor and she capitulated to both attend the ball and by virtue of that, start publicly dealing with the Vanderbilts.

Now I have a question for the experts - the staff would attend the same church as the rich families??? Seems unlikely as many of the staff would be catholics.

Thanks R48, I remember some of this from books I've read about the Astors and the Vanderbilts.

I'm weary of the Jackenspiel non-plot. Just drop trou already.

It does bug me a bit that they take such liberties with locations. The Elms in Newport was finished in 1901, 20 years after the time period of this series. As I said tough, pastiche and ersatz - comes with the territory. For example, Mrs. Astor is drawn way too grandly. When she enters any room the direction for the staging and acting is that she is perceived as Queen or Empress. It's way too broad.

R49, they mentioned to the cook with the accent that she must enjoy the “mass” at that new saint Patrick’s, so yeah, some servants would have been open Catholics.

While I liked last season, this season is really trashy fun.

"I don't want other dukes! I want [bold]this[/bold] duke! We found him and he's [bold]mine[/bold]!"

Nixon gives a noticeable good performance. In my humble opinion.

I like her on the show, too

Seems like the social classes have their churches:Irish servants to the Catholic and the Upper classes Episcopal. And then it depends on which parish you belong to.

But the protestant servants were shown attending easter service in that small church with the society families. Seemed odd to me. But I don't know how it worked back then.

It shouldn't surprise me, but Robert Sean Leonard's age and looks...

He’s forever the DLs pretty baby

Nixon gives such a good performance it transcends my dislike of Nixon for how she helped fuck up the Kentucky Derby reboot.

Problem is Nixon's performance is so sincerely good, it doesn't quite fit in with all the dreck surrounding it.

It's not complicated drama, that's for sure... it's Julian Fellowes... but I really enjoy it as bubble gum goes. It's entertaining, a nice diversion.

Nixon is giving a performance close to the one she gave on stage as Birdie in The Little Foxes. She won a well deserved Tony for that one.

R64 I compare it more to her portrayal of Emily Dickenson in A Quiet Passion. A movie that captured the poet and her time really, really well. An underappreciated movie and a stellar performance by Nixon.

R65. Very true. I love that movie, too.

Nixon is a classic example of a talented performer who should shut up except when on stage or filming a scene.

^I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Hey, Susan, show us your battleship.

This show would be better if each episode was longer to flesh out the characters. There’s only about 5 minutes devoted to the kitchen staff.

That’s because they are so low-class

I hate when people tease, play tricks on and fuck with their pets

Did something happen to Pumpkin R72?

"He's our Duke and he's mine!"

I know actors need money and exposure but imagine winning a Tony and/or being a respected stage actor and ending up on a TV show where maybe you get 3 or 4 minutes of screen time every week. I guess work is work.

i work in showbiz and yes, work is work

One thing that truly amazes me is how the actors roll out and blather on about what a genius writer Julian Fellowes is. Julian Fellowes, by no thinking measure, is anybody's example of a great writer, but you'd think they'll be teaching him in schools in a hundred years time, the way everybody carries on.

It’s soap opera with a big budget

It is now. It's Downton without the twee.

what a great thread

I CUN'T wait for the next episode

Are we using this thread?

We are now R82.

I can’t believe Agnes was so cruel when she told Ada that she wouldn’t be coming to the wedding and that Oscar wouldn’t be allowed either.

R83: The short courtship is more remarkable. Showing Ages' loneliness is really the first time her character has had any depth and, of course, it leads her to cruelty--she's an unhappy, dried up old widow. If the Church moved the priest to NYC from Boston what is to stop them from moving them again?

The Roebling story is more or less true (his wife taking over), although Roebling already had built multiple suspension bridges. The one in Cincinnati, in particular, has been described as informing the Brooklyn Bridge. The Roeblings didn't need to go abroad to learn anything.

Well they finally gave Cynthia Nixon something to do.

Wrong vestments on the priest again - 19th century wedding in Episcopal church would have called for cassock, surplice, & stole - NOT that stupid anachronistic chasuble & stole get-up.

I’m sure we all noticed that right away.

Please consider this post my angry letter to the producers.

I fucking love this ridiculous show.

I wonder if the season cliffhanger will be whether or not the alarm clock will work?

I’m disappointed in the Tuskegee storyline. Yes, it’s historically important but it’s boring as hell.

^ LOL

Sorry, the LOL was for the cliffhanger.

The music being played for the bride's entrance is a tune I associate with a recessional. Is that just a liberty taken or would it have been appropriate for the period?

Why wasn't Ada wearing white? I'm guessing she's still intact.

She’s a menopausal spinster, not some spring chicken hussy.

Also Ada and her man were in a hurry no time to have her seamstress conjure up a fabulous wedding dress.

Prediction: Ada will be a widow by the season finale.

Is Nathan Lane’s face purple on anyone else’s television screen?

[quote]Why wasn't Ada wearing white? I'm guessing she's still intact.

Like Grant's tomb. And about as fragrant.

Where's the mansex this season?

It's purple everywhere.

Watson’s foiling of the saboteurs was a bit too convenient.

Is there anyone Watson hasn't told his sad story to? What a blabbermouth.

Alarm Clock Jack storyline didn't really advance much this week. Sigh.

At least Ada wasn't jilted at the altar like poor Lady Edith.

Michael (Watson) Cerveris has told his sad tale to everyone at this point so what would be the point of moving to Frisco?

I can understand Ada not wearing white but deep teal with Frida Kahlo headdress?

I don't think so.

And the Denee Benton character in that bright scarlet dress in Tuskeggee? It's a wonder she wasn't hauled off the streets and lynched by those white thugs' wives.

So was the evil footman going to spill the soup on the Duke of Butterface's head? Was that the plan to embarrass Bertha?

R106. Yup. Not sure how much Miss Gulch paid him but I hope it was a lot cuz Gladys would surely fire his ass.

More gay sex!!!!

Next episode looks thrilling. I have to say my own predictions came true. I thought Peggy and her boss would get romantically involved and they finally did. I believed Agnes would show up at the church and she did.. I like old Bannister. Now I'm gonna predict that Oscar loses all his money and so does his lovely potential fiancee. That guy and his big business scheme is gonna blow up in their faces. Does anyone know his name? Will this be part of some historical scam? Like Teapot Dome or something?

And the railway workers strike. Gonna get real ugly I think. WTF is going to happen to Turner when Bertha finds out...and she will...that sabotage was on the menu? And does anyone else believe there will be a very short lived honey moon for Ada and Luke? I think someone will become ill and sadness is waiting in the wings. Marian and Dashiell are moving along, but I wonder. She seems so happy and fun with the Russell boy. You know Dashiell wants to marry her. But is he looking for a wife or for a mother for his kids.

Marian and Larry must be the endgame. They need a reason for Baranski and Coon to face off.

What's going on with Oscar's business investments? Hopefully that guy isn't the Gilded Age Sam Bankman-Fried

Have we seen the last of Laura Benantis' cougar?

The crisis of there being cum in the Duke’s soup was thankfully avoided!!!

I sure hope Oscar loses all his money. He is a sniveling weirdo.

Soap Operas don’t have endgames. The plot just keeps going.

I would like an orgy or at least a 3 way.

I get weird vibes from the girl playing Dashiell's daughter. She looks strange, like the Ukrainian dwarf or Claudia the vampire girl.

Turner needs to have a significant victory against Bertha. One-sided rivalries are boring as fuck. Bertha always winning is also boring as fuck. She needs to get checked.

Agnes pulled a magnificent Maleficent moment entering the church. Baranski should have floated down the aisle in green smoke.

Loved it. Oh, and loved that the Turner char, did not stain the dinner.

Who dressed Agnes? The servants were in the church.

She probably has a heathen lady's maid.

I think the reverend wanted to wear Ada's dress.

I kept waiting for that scene last night when niece Marian would have to explain to Aunt Ada what her conjugal duties to the Reverend would be. And the inevitable cancellation of the wedding.

Agnes sitting Ada down for the talk.

"First something [bold]disgusting[/bold] is going to happen to you tonight and you will [bold]hate[/bold] every minute of it.

Second, [bold]if you don't[/bold], there is something [bold]very wrong [/bold]with you and you are [bold]not[/bold] a [bold]lady[/bold], you may not even be a [bold]Livingston![/bold]"

The Wedding Dress: Although Queen Victoria popularized the "white" wedding dress in 1840, it still wasn't universal until after 1900. Also Ada didn't have a new dress made, just additional ribbon ornamentation. Agnes was able to dress (in the Power Dress) because her Lady's Maid, the grim Gussie she is, wasn't going to the wedding.

The plot-to-sabotage-the-Duke's-party shenanigans was a cartoon - so broad. I expected Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot to walk in. Also, we are being set-up to think the Duke is irresistibly drawn to Gladys. I think she kind of looks like there is some rodent DNA there.... can't see how her "great beauty" would attract anything but a fly.

The Rev definitely has a shelf-life: I'm thinking brain cancer.

Oscar is going to lose a lot of money. That whole investment sub-plot is a scheme. It'd be funny of the "immensely wealthy" young lady was in on the scheme.

The Duke is drawn to Daddy’s money, silly.

We're totally getting the Brooklyn Bridge stampede, which happened six days after its opening. Of all the notable historical events I predicted back in the old threads, this one makes the most sense as it's the most local.

Can Larry please stop falling for cougars? Am I right in thinking that this new one looks like a younger Jillian Armenante? Remember her?

I'm so glad we didn't get a full lynching scene because what we did get was so distressing to watch already. Fucking deplorables.

So many cute footmen in this episode, the casting folk have a great eye.

Does anyone know anything about the railway strike? Did it really happen?

They said they were willing to die for workers rights and now we haven't seen or heard from them in two episodes, very strange.

I've been listening to a podcast about the industrial revolution(s) over this past month and apparently by this point in time, the US was already the leading manufacturer of clocks and watches. So I don't know what the hell Jack is about to invent with that damn alarm clock.

By the way, George Stephenson – the father of railways – also taught himself to be a watchmaker at a young age when he was still working in and later managing workers in the coal mines, so that might have been an inspiration behind Jack's arc.

Speaking of railways, that CG locomotive looked pretty damn good.

They had clocks and watches, but did they have an affordable and reliable alarm clock? I don’t think so.

The first known mechanical alarm clock was invented by the American Levi Hutchins in 1787. There's no mention of it being unreliable.

Frenchman Antoine Redier was the first to patent an adjustable alarm clock in 1847, but the patent didn't cross the oceans.

American Seth E. Thomas patented his own version in the US in 1876. His company (founded in 1813) started mass producing them.

This season takes place in 1883. I rest my case.

The Railway Strike of 1877 in Pittsburgh really happened and it was bloody. Dozens were killed. They called out the state militia, and the feds and it brought things to a standstill for weeks. It was extremely violent and bloody. Fires, riots, death. Coming next week I betcha. This will be a major catastrophe for George Russell and the other railroad men. But of course the Government will be on their side. Episode 6 and probably 7 will be consumed with it, which is why they probably got the more minor plot points out of the way in Episode 4 &5.

The Credit Mobillier scandal when politicians were getting $$$ off Railroad construction was in t about 1872-73. I'm wondering if Oscar was investing in a "big deal" involving railroads and then the labor riots caused the "big deal" to fall apart and he loses his money and his potential fiancee' loses everything as well. Although, I like Oscar. I think he has larceny in his genes and he will figure out a way to weasel out intact.

No mention of it being unreliable? You crazy. Jack said it himself. He clearly knows more about alarm clocks than someone who no doubt never heard of Levi Hutchins before today. Jack, on the other hand, has a portrait of Hutchins over his bed. I imagine.

I don't think I've ever seen former slaves interacting with the whites like that mere 18 years after the Civil War on TV before, it was so hard to watch. Peggy's mom was right, but I doubt she could have imagined Alabama still being an absolute fucking shithole 140 years after she gave her that talk.

I found the Alabama part of the story very upsetting in Episode 5. I really thought something horrible would happen t o them. I thought he would get killed and shed be brutalized and then shipped home in tatters by the Washingtons. I suspect the experience will definitely affect how they write up their news story.

^^ It was both a horrifying sequence, and so curious. So soon after the Civil War and Reconstruction - life in the South from this perspective is NOT portrayed much. It was a "balance" to the story of white old money and new Robber Barons, and so both checked a box, told an important untold story, and advanced the plot of a character.

And what happened to the plot line with the cunt servant’s dying mother?

Having now read the cited article—Hutchin’s invention was for his own use and it was not adjustable. It would only ring at one time.

Redier’s clock could only be set to the nearest hour. I’d call that “unreliable.”

As for the reported invention of an alarm clock by Seth Thomas in 1876, it is indeed a remarkable achievement considering that he died in 1859.

Go, Jack. You can do it!

gave me the cold grue

The problem with this show is that it’s like a glossy Hallmark drama that glistens with saccharine syrup. Downton Abbey was darker and had satisfying drama elements.

What’s the point of the Gilded Age if everything works out in the end and has a positive message like one of those 1980s sitcoms with the special episode?

R141 I thought DA was very positive. No aristocrats in that era would have bent over for their servants the way the Crawley's did. Happy endings all round.

r139 The Seth Thomas Clock Co. invented the first alarm clock in 1876 and was awarded a patent for its invention the same year, not Seth Thomas himself. I should have made that clearer.

Crowd massacre on Brooklyn Bridge, Black journalists chased by white lynch mob, labor riots with military intervention and lots of blood, investment schemes with lost fortunes.... r142 Yep, Happy Endings like a massage in WeHo, yep.

R142 I need a tragic death.

Yes, I thought Downton Abbey was unrealistically positive. The aristocrats look like saints

We don't cast with our eyes.

The article you cite specifically says that Seth Thomas himself invented the alarm clock. Tsk. Tsk. Clearly an unreliable source. Also, the existence of an 1876 patent does not tell us when the company started selling the clocks or how reliable they were After mentioning the Thomas patent, the article says “ In an expanding urban and industrial world, people were obligated to know the time and to be on time,” writes historian Martin Levinson. “By the late nineteenth century, many consumers were actively seeking alarm clocks.”

Plenty of opportunity for an enterprising young gentlemen like our Jack.

"Ding."

"Serve the teacakes, Loretta."

The Seth Thomas Clock Company was producing 135,000 clocks per year in 1885, shortly after this season takes place. I'm pretty sure they weren't sitting on that alarm clock patent, lmao.

I don't know what Jack might invent, but it surely won't be a reliable alarm clock.

Is Larry's new cougar going to take ANY responsibility for the impending stampede, or nah?

135,000 ALARM clocks? They were a leading clock manufacturer so unless you have specific information about the number of ALARM clocks they produced in 1885 it’s back to the library for you!

My American history is so poor I need Laura Linney to give me an introduction on what is going on in general American life.

Bertha mentioned using Bernardaud china and St. Louis glass for the dinner with the Duke. Googling around, both look fancy as hell.

Anyway, here's the actor who played the cute, bitchy, scheming footman. His very first IMDb credit!

We should remember that Jack already owns an alarm clock. Perhaps we can stipulate that it was manufactured by Seth Thomas Company. But our boy finds it wanting. He’s seeking to improve upon existing technology. And no doubt Seth Thomas’s sons would pay a pretty penny for a better, um, mousetrap.

It’s nice that Meryl got this Cush job for Louisa. All she has to do is look pretty and maybe say 12 lines each week. I wonder what her salary is.

R156 I thought she was competent but bland for the first season. By now I think her "careful, shallow" speech works for the character, and she has some tools. Her anger at Aunt Agnes was effective. Her charm with Larry seems real. Her uncertainty with the cousin and his daughter want who want to adopt her seems sweet...

Her character is a straightforward, polite, NICE young woman. The actress may not be able to do more than be straightforward, polite, nice... I haven't seen her in anything else. But for now it works for this character.

Louisa's sister I think Mamie and Gracie, are really really good actors. Louisa still seems to be finding her footing. I do think the role does giver her a lot to work with. She did rise to the occasion when it was needed. I loved her exchanges with Baransky. They had chemistry. And she is good at putting a little steel in Ada's spine. The dynamic works. But the way the dialogue is written, so mannered, it doesn't even compare to Downton Abbey as far as the scripts. Stilted, mannered artificial conversation. Carrie Coon's Bertha expressing her outrage at her husband's betrayal was the best I've seen of her. She is almost mechanical in most of her scenes.

R158 here. I meant Louisa's sisters....I do NOT think the role does give her much to work with....

The Downton costumes were always gorgeous and authentic but never distracted from the scenes the way these fantastical creations do.

DA could have real heartache because actors like Dan Stevens and Jessica Findlay Brown chose to leave the series and made tragic deaths possible.

Well the new moneyed people are usually the tackiest dressers r160.

OMG, Jack's inventing the iPhone, isn't he?!?!?!?!

I'm another one who mostly dislikes the costumes. They're at war with themselves. You look at the Met archives and the dresses were elaborate but there was a color restraint. These things are like an episode of Antique Drag Race.

The men's tailoring has always been consistently authentic and incredibly handsome.

But the women's costumes are trying way too hard to stun the eyes and reinvent what those bustle ensembles really looked like. Fantastical shapes and outrageously inappropriate colors.

I don't imagine Julian Fellowes or any of the producers even know the difference.

I like the Streepling just fine.

I liked the first season well enough, but I’m really enjoying this season. Lots of scheming and real world influences that always send me down a rabbit hole history lesson. I didn’t know about the woman engineer; that’s cool! Oscar is certainly going to lose his money and Agnes will be scandalized. I can’t see Uncle Julian allowing Ada to be happy for long—something is afoot. Turner is a fun bitch-I know Bertha will eventually come out on top, but I hope at least one of Turner’s schemes works.

The Peggy stuff was tense. I was so scared for them. Glad they escaped.

I guess they have more than enough characters and storylines, but I miss Jeanne Tripplehorn.

R165, people wore bright colors back then.

It would be nice if Meryl Streep made a small cameo role.

I'd like to see Glennie Close make a cameo as Albert Nobbs.

Okay, R169 I laughed at that.

Perhaps G. will land the role of Bertha’s new tiara-handling maid. She will make the most of that small part, I’m sure.

[quote] Why wasn't Ada wearing white

White wasn’t that common - and she was old for the time. I believe I had great aunts in the early twentieth century get married in green or olive.

I think baransky’s confession to priest Luke about how lonely she’ll be made her INstantly a more interesting character than the dowager cuntess at DA. She’s a sour bitch, but there is interest there

The Streepling is definitely better this season. Of course it helps that she's not carrying a major storyline.

The episode would have been much better, and more fun, if the scheme with the sauce had been pulled off. As it was, it was another round of "Bertha wins again." which is quite boring.

Also, at her age, Ada would have married quietly in the parlour at home.

Unless she married a priest.

This was the best episode this season, which isn't entirely high praise. At least there wasn't all the tiresome emoting of last week's episode, although the rescue of the banquet for the Duke seemed ridiculous. Yes, Ada's marriage will somehow crash and burn--she seems to be the "poor Edith" of this show. Oscar will lose his fortune. Hopefully, Bertha will "get hers" at some point---she's not very interesting if they stick with this. The Tuskegee subplot was at least a bit unexpected and actually well done. The opera subplot seem to be losing steam, hence, the Roebling plot, I guess.

Call me Rose, but what was the evil footman going to do with that bowl of soup?

r167, bright colors like those seen on the series were very rarely worn by respectable women in the 1880s. Certainly not by the likes of retiring spinsters like Ada and Black secretaries like Peggy.

I get it, it's HBO TV, but still, it's just so inauthentic and distracting. It would be far smarter if they saved those very bright colors for dramatic punch when needed instead of making it the norm in every scene.

^ No, most women liked bright colors, even respectable ones. It's a myth that Victorians wore bland colors. See some comparisons: costumes from the show vs real dresses from the time

r180, did you actually read the article you linked?

There are NO examples of real dresses in bright or deep colors from the 1880s in any of the research they provide. And I agree with all of the criticism of the GA costumes the author so generously lays out in the article.

If you love the costumes, that's great.

r181, they've done numerous write-ups about the show, and if you go through them you can see comparisons to dresses from the time

Did YOU read the article? They do give the show some criticism but overall their view of the costumes is positive

Lots of dresses from that period were brightly colored:

Hope the bald dude gets some kind of reward for saving the day with his keen observation skills. He always seems most out of place to me. Did men shave their heads like that in the 1880s? Photos from that era show men leaving their remaining hair. Maybe he’s just completely cue ball bald.

He’s sort of cute in a sad way, I’ll throw him a BJ

I just don't see Gladys having any particular charisma or enough charm and beauty to be any sort of society beauty. She's sweet but easily eclipsed by other chatacters. The way Julian is writing her as some great society deb of the social scene needs to be a Scarlett O'Hara type personality. Unless, she undergoes a personality major change or makeover she's miscast in my humble opinion.

Taissa Farmiga is a bland actress and isn't remotely attractive.

To me though, R183 is a classic example of how the show gets it wrong. The dress shown at link was bold, but it works. Three colors, considerable detail, but it isn't at war with itself. So many of the dresses on GA look like a collision between Easter, Drag Watch and truck full of Eastern European upholstery.

R186, agreed. I'm sure Bertha looks at Gladys and wonders how to make that mouse work. In Gone with the Wind, Scarlett disregards her daughter by Frank Kennedy as bird brained and addled (probably because Scarlett boozed her way through the whole pregnancy.) That's who Gladys reminds me of. She's written like a total disappointment.

There was much more dramatic tension in a mother and daughter equally matched in temperament, but, Julian Fellowes.... Oooooh, if I finish this script quickly we'll have time for extra mini-puddings with our tea!

See, here's the thing. I don't think the actress playing Gladys is miscast. I think she is playing the character deliberately bland and colorless. While her mother has all these pretensions of importance and plays the society games, and insists Gladys wear this color not that color, and her parents block suitors they feel unsuitable, poor Gladys (even her name is dowdy) just wants to be a simple young girl and have friends and have fun. Notice how she walked in to the dinner a couple beats late and was sort of going through the motions and when Mrs. Fish called out she just walked right past Mom and the duke. She was unimpressed and unimpressive. Gladys only lights up when she is with people she likes or is comfortable with. She's drab, because her mother has squeezed the life out of her leaving her almost limp.

And Bertha needs to hike her daughter's tits up and out. They were invisible at the dinner.

R192, Gladys 's whole presentation had a bit of the ridiculous in it. One of the downstairs maids could have worked up more enthusiasm, and the feather and the white accents on the BRIGHT pink dress made it seem like a cheap dancehall costume not a formal dinner gown. Gladys dressed better at the ball her parents gave last season.

I agree r193, the dress on Gladys reminded me of a can-can girl. And the hat Marian wore to Aunt Ada's wedding could have been purchased at Party City.

That post is abuse- it’s not remotely funny or witty.

Who upthread called Ada's hat from the Frida Kahlo collection?

I am tired of hearing the word "Pittsburgh"

Some of the costumes are beautiful but some are hideous. There was one on the latest episode where it looked like Marian had roses for nipples.

Gladys and Ada are analogous to Edith in "Downton Abbey" and really one Edith would be enough (she certainly was more than enough on DT). Gladys is the dull part of Edith, while Ada is the pitiful part and I doubt we'll have an unplanned pregnancy or unanticipated interest from a minor royal (although Gladys' mother is trying), but maybe Ada will have a dead husband.

Taissa is an attractive woman, but they intentionally make her dowdy for this.

I want Ada to have a change of life baby!

According to the Mail Nixon is on a hunger strike outside the White House, until Biden imposes a ceasefire in Gaza, or something along those lines.

Frankly, I think it'll do her good. That bustle wasn't getting any smaller.

But there *is* a cease-fire in place as I type, and there also was a cease-fire in place until Hamas broke it with their barbarism on October 7th. These Hollywood types really do live on another fucking planet.

What a surreal experience it'll be watching this show next week. Ada on her honeymoon and Nixon cosplaying as our Darfur orphan.

Well, to be fair to Taissa, the hair styles of the time aged women. Even the younger women look matronly.

R203 I understand the horror of Oct 7. But the idea that only Hamas is at fault is no longer the reasonable opinion world wide. Those who oppose ethnic cleansing, who are dedicated to human rights, know that only a two-state solution is the possible path to peace. Israel will need to be different. Palestinians will need to reject Hamas... and Palestine will need to be its own country.

The world has changed this Fall. Israel is not without guilt. Hamas is evil.

There's not nearly enough real tension and passion and interest between these characters. Also more Mrs. Fish, please. Give her a proper story line.

Yeah, I can see that r199. The Duke is pretty dull as well, of course. So at best it will be the marriage of a dull dishrag with money to a dull dishrag with a title. Hurrah!

[quote]But the idea that only Hamas is at fault is no longer the reasonable opinion world wide.

In your opinion. Hamas is wholly to blame for the terrorism; you can't victim-blame Israelis and others who got caught up in the savagery of October 7th, just as you can't say the US shares part of the blame for 9/11. There is NEVER excuse for terrorising civilians. No ifs, no buts, no qualifiers of any kind. We live in a modern world and there need to be lines drawn in the sand when it comes to this medieval nonsense. If you do resort to that sort of behaviour, the response needs to be ruthless, so you'll get the message what happens if you try that again. We'll all benefit from that ruthless response in the long run.

Hamas needs to be obliterated from the face of the planet, then we can talk. And unless we forget, it's Hamas that has thrown off members of nascent opposition parties in Gaza off rooftops in the past because they were competition to their hold on power.

Anyway, I enjoy this thread for being a refuge from the real world, so I won't press this matter further.

I agree. Not here. I posted the Nixon thing here and it was a dumb choice. I ought to have put it on the thread related. Very sorry.

Hi Taissa at R200! Sorry dear, you're fug in every era.

I think Oscar's drag name should be Pernicious Anemia.

Were bustles a kind of status thing? I don't think the maids had bustles did they? But they if they went out on a day off they had a plain version of the bustle dresses the rich ladies wore. And some of Marian's outfits, her bustles seemed less pronounced than Bertha's or Ada or Agnes.

WTF?

r178, Spill the soup on the duke.

Spill the soup on George Russell and I’ll happily lick it up.

The spill the soup on the Duke gambit was poorly conceived. First of all, a random footman hired for the occasion would not be serving the guest of honor. Second, the fact that he regularly works for the Wintertons is not a secret.

Lazy, lazy, lazy.

It was a Russell footman.

R217 He was... but I didn't understand his motivation for staging such a gaffe. I mean spilling soup on the Duke gets him fired and couldn't possibly help him get another job in service.

Excuse me, r218, but you are trying to apply logic to this. There is no need for logic. In my world, an evil footman can stay in his job as long as he wants. He brings a certain needed - color - to the place...

Perhaps he already had an offer to join Watson in San Francisco?

I assume Turner was going to give him a very special hiring bonus.

Yes, Turner probably promised him a job at her palace.

I was thinking Turner had plans to snag the Duke, kill off the elderly husband, grab the cash, and become a Duchess. But Big Bertha seems to twat-block her at every turn.

R221 Hard to think she'd be that explicit to reward a servant who messed up the Duke's Dinner. But then.... "poaching" the help has come up before in this series.

Plotting and writing is terrible. Acting is a mixed bag. The only fun is seeing what old mansions they took out of mothballs to shoot this series and how they get the production design right, or wrong.

That whole "spill the soup" plot was beyond stupid. Embarrassingly bad! Insulting. Non-sensical.

It's shocking to me that HBO is willing to put millions into this shit yet won't bring in some better writers to "help" Fellowes.

They could have at least put some mice in the dining room and had them running wild as the guests ate their soup. Now that would have been the shit. That's how I'd have written it. But of course that would have ruined things and the point was that things were not ruined. But I agree. Deliberately spilling soup was dumb.

Maybe the soup was to be poisoned?

One thing I have to credit Turner with. She had a back up plan in place. It didn't work, but it demonstrates she is not to be dismissed.

Maybe Alarm Clock Jack put his cum into the soup......the Duke would have asked for a second helping.

Consuelo Vanderbilt had quite the life. She did marry the Duke - sobbing down the aisle - and gave him two children. It was very much a loveless marriage. But she ended up divorcing him, which was rare. After that, she lived and loved well. And get this -Diana Spencer is related.

There's a photo of her then. She was fairly similar to the actress playing her.

The American heiress Frances Ellen Work was actually Diana’s great grandmother. (And Oliver Platt is really one of Diana’s cousins?) The Vanderbilt relationship is more distant.

She's a beaut.

I like that the Russell men are very handsome. And the women are attractive enough. And the Van Rhijns are homely. Blake Ritson as Oscar is very poorly lit. He looks ill.

Ward Horton as Charles Fane isn't bad looking. I don't buy the plot twist that Russel saved his fortune. That was very easy.

Sullivan Jones is handsome.

There aren't enough handsome men in this series.

The Vanderbilt men were homely. It took a couple generations and the Cornelius line was eventually OK looking.

Charles Fane looks Gay to me. Aurora has been very helpful to getting Bertha hooked up with the society people she was to run with.

R235, leave the Vanderbilts alooooone

I'm seeing a bit of AC in R235.

AC is a descendant of the dissolute brother, Reginald.

[quote]Charles Fane looks Gay to me.

He looks [bold]very[/bold] gay to me. In fact I want him to have an affair with John Adams' attractive grandson.

Clay Elder (Adams) was Ward Horton's (Fane) understudy in the dreadful Torch Song revival.

R234 , I want beard-y Cousin Dashiell deeply, deeply inside me. He is very sexy.

R242, I agree. That guy is hot... and that voice. Yummy. But I Google stalked... straight and married.

Personally, I don't think actors should be allowed to be straight.

[quote]Personally, I don't think actors are ever completely straight.

FIFY

Morgan Spector. Please pound my ass.

How can that man not be gay?

Fuck, r246. Rebecca Hall is one lucky bitch.

He’s pretty lucky too. Gorgeous couple. I kind of wish she was playing Bertha.

Very big dick energy there

I'm sorry, he's not bad, but I don't see it. I think the guy who plays his son is ten times hotter.

I think the issue with Morgan Spector is dressing him in Victorian tailoring, all buttoned up, is not really doing him any favors. HIs sex appeal is very contemporary working class guy. The son OTOH pulls off the period look just perfectly.

What's stupid, among many things with the series, is they don't really take advantage of that working class ethos in the conception of George Russell. It might have been mentioned in S1E1 but really should be a constant in the characterization. He's basically become little more than a prop for his wife.

Agreed, R116. It's like they shrank down an adult Kiernan Shipka back to Sally Draper size. She's also leaning way too heavily into the "we're a little family!" business. That's extremely creepy and presumptuous, not to mention precocious, at that stage of acquaintance.

George is torn between his progressive nature and taking the shrewdest actions as a Robber Baron to protect and build his vast wealth. For example he is progressive about his daughter's right to self define, within some boundaries. This was a promising characterization although basically unstable and they haven't pushed it. He obviously both loves his wife and relies on her steely determination in all things. He takes energy from her steely coolness.

I haven't been moved by any dilemmas in the Russell narrative. This is poor writing and plotting. Th other characters have more compelling stories and conflicts, though even they are limited. So much of the plotting is weak sauce.

WHET Jeanne Tripplehorn's character? I don't remember, nor do I recall any of the specifics of her storyline. I only remember that she was snubbed by polite society and had an art collection.

R252 It's SUPER HEAVY narration. I guess it's for the near senile viewers in the virtual peanut gallery, watching from their Barcaloungers.

R254 are you one of the senile viewers I just mentioned? Sylvia Chamberlain's backstory is painstakingly narrated in several episodes. She was the mistress. She bore a son out of wedlock and when they were finally able to marry they tried to pass the son off as legitimate. Nobody in society bought into it.

R253, you're right. Fellowes cannot do complexity or character, and if he somehow tries and does, he cannot sustain it. George should have been a much more complex character, contentedly ruthless in business, rationalizing everything. His daughter should have been a stronger character, a challenge to her mother's strong will. This could have been a great drama but it isn't (which isn't to say, for me, it isn't a ton of fun to watch.) And for some reason they've gone the cast of thousands route, allowing everybody about three lines a week in two scenes at best, on average. Nothing happens, nothing matters. It's just so damn frustrating because Fellowes is great at creating a chess board but horrible with the moves.

R254, she was just a cog in the wheel of the storyline about Marian and Raikes. They didn't even write her out. She just ceased to exist in season two.

I never watched Downton Abbey. I'm continually surprised that a man who makes a career out of creating historical drama and writing dialogue for period characters has such a minuscule understanding of how people actually spoke.

"Go for it!"

"You're going to miss out!"

Servant to employer: "If you don't go to the wedding, you're going to regret it for the rest of your life." The presumption! The disrespect! That would never happen.

Etc., etc.

I don't think Uncle Julian likes to be late for tea, so sometimes he rushes.

But truly, I think he's much better at setting the stage than scripting. It is a mystery to me how many actors on GA have vigorously sucked his cock with lines in press like "and of course the genius writing of Julian Fellowes!" I don't think anyone would honestly call Fellowes a genius writer. He doesn't punch genius at all. He's... fine... he delivers typical Julian Fellowes material, which never delivers any insight into the human condition. It has to be contracted. Baranski, Coon et. al have all played the genius card in press and it amazes me. And Coon is married to a Pulitzer prize winning writer.

When I think that he did Gosford Park I just shake my head. Of course he was working with Robert Altman who was brilliant. I think Julian performs better when he has someone pushing him.

Series 2? They’re still on the same series, “The Guilded Age.” We’re in season two now, of course.

The consensus is Gosford was as much a consequence of truly all star, talented actor cast, set free to ad lib. Which would be consistent with Fellowes knowing how to set the table but not cook the meal.

[quote] "If you don't go to the wedding, you're going to regret it for the rest of your life."

I can see Carson saying that to Lady Mary, r258. Indicative of a long-established relationship.

Agnes Van Rhijn is mostly bark with no bite. If I'm not mistaken she rails against and slaps down all impudence but she doesn't punish it.

[quote] Servant to employer: "If you don't go to the wedding, you're going to regret it for the rest of your life." The presumption! The disrespect!

Have someone fetch your smelling salts, Mary!

Oh, the HUMANITY!

It's shocking how bad this series is with so many prominent producers in place. The series and characters can all be described as "one note," no depth to either. Doesn't always equal magic but its not usually such a bomb in so many areas:

1. Christine Baranski - how under used this wonderful actress is. Her character is completely one note with no depth. They have her saying non-funny sarcastic lines every episode. They have her sitting on basically the same set every episode - her living room or dinning room. Ridiculous. 2. Casting in general - it's actually easier to name the actors who were cast well. Mr. Russell is a great actor, fits his part. Miss Brook, Louisa Jacobson , is also very good (helps that her mother is Meryl Streep). And... that's it. All of the others are miscast. Cynthia Nixon is cringe. The woman who plays Mrs. Russell is not good in this role. Even the fantastic Nathan Lane is annoying in this series. 3. Storyline(s). One note and a big who cares.

LIterally the only reason to watch this series is to see how much money they've spent on sets and costumes which grow more ornate by each episode.

I love it

R267 lost me at Louisa Jacobson is very good. I agree that Baranski is totally wasted here.

I also hate those heavily feathered bangs on Baranski's wig which look ridiculous on an ultra-conservative widow. Clearly, this is Christine's vanity.

Well, the problem, as I See it, is that Julian hasn't done much with the plot points. Basic premise is that we go back in time to NYC society, and observe, post Industrial Revolution, or during it, the "new people" make waves and demand a place in the high class social life and are blocked. But you have all these characters and therea re stories and crises, and problems, and nothing is ever followed through. Everything is very predictable.And tedious.

But there is a dastardly plot to spill the hot soup on the duke!

[quote] Even the fantastic Nathan Lane is annoying in this series.

His accent is so bad and cartoonish that you wonder whether they'll want to rescind some of his previous Emmys and Tonys.

R265, the point went right over your head. That dialogue was completely period-inappropriate, illustrating my comment, and what I wrote is how an employer like Agnes would have received it. It is not his place to comment on her behavior, and it stuck out like a sore thumb.

[quote] [R265], the point went right over your head.

Oh no, honey: I absolutely ssure you I got your point.

You're just neither as ironic nor as clever as you think you are.

*assure you

Uh oh,,,,,the Rev saw a doctor. It won't be long now.

Pernicious anemia??????

So Mrs. Winterton/Turner took her box! I would love a knock down drag out fight between Winterton and Bertha.

Dashiell stepped in it when he stated that Marian isn’t a real teacher.

A starring role for Alarm Clock Jack this episode!

But he didn't beat the clock!

Alarm Clock Jack looks particularly dreamy when he's sad. Those eyes!

Well. I tol' you an' I tol' you....Rev. has a fatal disease. ....and Larry Russell the architect has eyes for Marian. THis Dashiell thing will end badly. Dashiell seems rather overbearing. Oops. Gould figured in the Tea Pot Dome scandal. That guy gave Oscar his money back with "interest." And dumbass insisted on giving him MORE money and becoming an investor even though the guy was very clear about not wanting him. That guy knows this is a shady deal. Mrs. Astor needs to simply change the Academy's calendar so it doesn't conflict, the invite her "waiting list" to come to the Academy. It was a stupid strategy borne of arrogance that she insisted you couldn't be a member of both. And did she really expect the Wintertons to go quietly.

Cancer! The big C!

Felt so bad for Marian, being put on the spot like that by cousin Dashiell

I really liked this episode probably because I accept the show for the over produced soap opera it is. And there's nothing wrong with that. Nixon was really excellent. Dashiell showed us what an asshole he really is. And Morgan had some nice moments.

Cunting butlers call a truce!!!

Honestly the plotlines are worse than a f---ing network daytime soap opera! She married him last week!!? UGHHHHHHhhhhhhhhh. I wish HBO would do-over this concept. It's a great concept. Terrible, terrrrible writing, acting, directing.

I am certain the banker and Oscar's girl are jointly pulling a con on Oscar.

I wish Enid Winterton (formerly Turner) would gain the upper hand over Bertha for at least one episode, but Fellowes wants her plans foiled every single episode.

"I am certain the banker and Oscar's girl are jointly pulling a con on Oscar."

The Caroline Ellison and Sam Bankman-Fried of yesteryear?

Days of our Gilded Age.

All of My Gilded Age Children

One Gilded Age to Live

Ryan’s Gilded Age

The lack of Bertha in this episode has not gone unnoticed and will not be tolerated going forward.

Oscar is getting scammed to hell and back and it's beautiful to watch.

Kudos to whoever guessed the priest was dying. I admit it was a bit triggering because my cancer last year started out with a back pain as well. So grateful to live in a time where the doctors bought me some extra time to discuss this show with you all here. However, Ada really didn't deserve that, shame on Fellowes for breaking a spinster's heart like that.

This episode took place in August of '83, which means we aren't getting the Brooklyn Bridge stampede after all. Boo!

I deplore and repudiate Jack's entirely ahistorical alarm clock arc. Having said that, seeing Jack sad made me sad.

Oh, and Mrs. Winterton is a bitch cunt from hell, but fuck me if this isn't the single most beautiful costume I have ever seen.

[quote]However, Ada really didn't deserve that, shame on Fellowes for breaking a spinster's heart like that.

At least it wasn't pernicious anemia. Or even regular anemia. Then again, he always did like Lady Edith Syndrome a lot too. Incurable until the last episode of the last season. Recurs if there are movies.

The Streepling and the Russell boy actually have a nice chemistry in their scenes. I hope she tells her fiancée/cousin to kick rocks. And that creepy little girl can fuck off too.

Poor Ada—couldn’t she have a few months of happiness before finding out she’s about to be a widow?? I never thought this show would make me tear up, but the scene with Agnes showing up to comfort Ada did it.

I called the Ada as Edith plotline earlier. There's a bit of her in that homely Russell daughter, too.

R290, I really hope the girl isn't in on Oscar's being conned. And I honestly do not want to see Oscar lose his fortune. I'd like to see a win for him. I'd like to see him figure out the con and expose it and not lose his money. But your idea is a good one. The fact she might know about it is very plausible. You should be writing this not Julian. I fear your notion may be too complicated for him.

Of course even though I speculated way upthread, that Rev. would develop a fatal illness, I don't want him to die. I would rather it's a misdiagnosis. I want Agnes to cure cancer.(joke) by finding him a doctor who will perform a really dangerous experimental surgery and discover a benign growth they can remove and maybe he ends up in a wheel chair, but he's alive and 'one day" he will heal and walk again.

Hey, I'm Dr. Che Diaz.

It's always nice to see Agnes leave that damn house. She was practically a recluse in Season 1 but Baranski was also shooting The Good Fight at the time and that may have necessitated filming multiple Agnes scenes in one day.

OK read this brief biography of Jay Gould for some idea of what's going on in Gilded Age. Gould died in 1892. I think he'd have been in his 60's? Anyway he was a railroad man, and a financier and a speculator and he was involved with fraud and scams.

Julian likes all of his fags to suffer. They are never happy.

If Marian decides to get out of the engagement (scandal!) she's likely to wake up to that creepy Orphan dopplenganger daughter with a knife to her throat

That would be entertaining.

It's too bad... that actor has natural appeal, but they gave him nothing to do.

R261–the British use “series” the way Americans use “season.”

At some point Marian will see that he "engaged" her for his daughter, and that he is still in love with his dead wife. But yes it will be a scandal. And Agnes will have fits since she helped engineer it. It seems a number of people were in on it. But WTF did she expect! She was seen frequently in his company with him and his daughter. It was clear he was interested in her. She should have stopped it. Instead she allowed her kind heart to take pity on his daughter, which he exploited, and boom! There it is. It is definitely going to be a scandal. Especially if Marian hooks up with young Mr. Russell. OMG. And I think Mr. Russell is going to get into an alliance with the woman who built the Brooklyn Bridge. I'm talking about a business alliance. So if the brilliant engineer and the young Architect go into business together, and he marries Marian, everyone is going to go nuts. His parents, Aunt Agnes and Cousin Dashiell.

Imagine taking "if you really want me to" as an affirmative when asking someone to marry you. That guy just wants Marian to take care of his kid, but is otherwise completely disinterested in her. The scene with his wife's portrait wasn't just another instance of Marian' putting her foot in her mouth, it was a total red flag – he doesn't need reminders of his wife... because she's never left his mind and heart in the first place.

The plot developments are visible from a mile away. We knew Ada’s husband would die. We know Oscar will be the victim of an enormous fraud . We know Jack is going to make a ton of money on his alarm clock.

Damn, I must have been reading r308's thoughts as I posted that.

What I didn't like about Cousin Dashiell is his presumption she'd say yes by asking her in front of all those society people. He plans this event, knowing he would ask her, and Agnes obviously had advance notice, but Dashiell didn't have a conversation about their relationship with Marian. He treated her lie a child, even dismissing her interest in teaching. Don't like that guy.

r307 It's DL, posters here regularly freak out over Briticisms. I once got treated to a full-blown meltdown because I called a TV show "brilliant".

That proposal scene was the equivalent of those diabolical gender reveal parties where 10,000 of old growth forest goes up in smoke.

I actually felt sorry for Marian. I though Louisa did a very good job of expressing embarrassment and awkwardness. But her response was cringe worthy. "If you really want me to..." Have we ever seen Dashiell and Marian sit and have a conversation beyond talking about his daughter? As for next weeks event, Gladys is about to be fed to the lions. That Duke fella isn't just coming for the opening of the Met.Bertha is definitely up to something. Maybe Cousin Dashiell will take an interest in Gladys. She could do worse.

I’m afraid a non-royal Duke is as low as Bertha will allow for poor Gladys.

No one is going to take in interest in homely Gladys unless it's for her money. Maybe Dashiell will get dropped from the show once he's dumped. Julian has too many characters as it is.

R317 I wouldn't mind if Dashiell leaves the scene.

Maybe it will be Marian and young Mr. Russell who hook up and leave. After all. If she dumps Dashiell it will be extremely socially embarrassing.

Has Stanford White been murdered yet???

When is Larry going to fuck Jack?

any news on the colored assistant and her boss the mandingo ex slave?

The public, or semi-public proposal, just seemed so bad and out of place in that time and society. Even now big loud public proposals are obnoxious, even though everyone is supposed to find them so adorable, but then it seems like it would be a real faux pas. The forms are vital to these people, and even though everyone knows marriage is very transactional and arranged by parents, etc., there are still hoops to jump through. And one of them is the quiet discussion with the blushing young lady, even if she's thinking "bout friggin time, numbnuts." And after the quiet engagement and the discussion with the parents or guardians getting approval and working out any financial details, then there's the carefully planned announcement to friends and family, at the proper occasion.

Marion should break it off just for the desperate presumption that Dashiell showed in skipping all that.

When the alarm clock wakes him up.

Yes, it seemed completely off that Dashiell had this plan to do something so public, at a time when this was definitely not done. Also, he didn't even know she was going to be there. She had already turned it down. But then again, when has the plotting made much sense in terms of period - or logic.

The teacher who persuaded Marian to go to the event and took over her class was clearly in on the plot

^well, possibly

Kai Winn from Deep Space Nine and Mrs. Winterton from The Gilded Age.

Separated at birth?

As someone who thinks Cousin Dashiell (David Furr) is extremely attractive — I noted earlier that he looks like a hunky John Singer Sargent — I’d like him to stay on the show. Though his springing a public proposal like that was dim-witted, the fact that he never so much as made a move to kiss his intended filled me with hope that he’s a closet case, hoping Marian will beard for him and take care of his brat while he sexually enslaves bottom boy John Adams (Claybourne Elder) becoming a passionately cruel and tormented Daddy. Well, anyway, that’s what would happen if I was the show runner . . .

Meanwhile, Ben Ahlers as clock tinkerer Jack looked much taller in this episode than he has before. He has beautiful eyes, but something about his nose, mouth and jaw suggest a character out of Dickens — or Tim Burton.

Stanford White was assassinated by Harry K. Thaw in 1906, more than 20 years on from our story. Thaw was a closet homosexual and sociopath, albeit rich, and he became obsessed about White’s deflowering of his wife, beautiful Evelyn Nesbit, who — unlike most beauties of the past who usually look plain or even ugly to us — really was radiantly lovely, even to our contemporary eyes.

[quote]He has beautiful eyes, but something about his nose, mouth and jaw suggest a character out of Dickens — or Tim Burton.

Quoting Logan Roy: Have a drink, you beautiful Ichabod Crane fuck you!

What do we know of David Furr?

Married?

Sizemeat?

Coinslot or Rosebud?

Furr is unfortunately, married to a woman and has offspring.

Again, I really feel very strongly that actors should not be allowed to be straight. What purpose does it serve?

Yeah, the public proposal is not authentic to the period.

I cannot take my eyes off Morgan Spector (aka George Russell). What a compelling actor. Even in a cast of top-tier actors, in my opinion he’s blowing them all away. I can’t believe I’ve never seen him in anything before. His character is objectively a villain but I can’t help rooting for him.

R329, that's true. Nesbit really was lovely. I was going to make a point about the casting of Sophia Adler as Lillie Langtry (in a blink-and-you'll-miss-it appearance in the Duke of Buckingham episode); I could hardly believe that actress was supposed to pass for a famous beauty. Then I looked up pictures of both of them, and I could see a real resemblance.

I miss John Adams! Would like to see more of him

One thing is certain: jack is a SNACK

John and Jack Snackwich!

The fictional George Russell shows a softened to the strikers that historically never existed.

IMO, Marian ought to be outraged. She should be upset with Dashiell and anyone who was complicit in putting her on the spot like that. It was demeaning.

R341 — Yes, in 2023. In the 1880s, most well-reared young ladies of breeding would consider Cousin Dashiell a catch and meekly acquiesce as events avalanched.

We’re obviously meant to see Marian as a maverick, soft-spoken but decisive. And clearly, she and Harry Richardson are going to be paired off. They look like they like each other but I don’t see sexual sparks. Richardson has a wonderful face, his eyebrows and dimples really send me, but his narrow-shouldered, skinny body is a turnoff, even if accurate for the period.

[quote] I’m afraid a non-royal Duke is as low as Bertha will allow for poor Gladys.

At the time, you couldn't get any higher than that. British royals only married other royals (or in rare cases, other members of the aristocracy), but the "dollar princesses" were snatched up by British dukes, earls, marquises, etc. Sometimes if they knew French they could also marry French aristocrats; but actual royals (the non-deposed kind) were out of their reach.

Gladys is based on the real-life Consuelo Vanderbilt, whose mother Alva (the real-life basis for Bertha) forced her to marry the Duke of Marlborough. She came with an enormous dowry, which the Duke (who was a real cad) knew would save his estate, Blenheim Palace, then falling into ruin but once the grandest house in the UK. Consuelo's mother not only forced her daughter to break off her engagement with a man she really loved, but actually locked her daughter in her room at their Newport mansion until she agreed to marry the Duke.

I feel her pain

While my problem with most shows is that I can’t keep the young long-haired brunettes straight, on this one I can’t remember which dashing young man is which.

Consuelo took back up with Rutherford, her true love after her marriage. And she had many other lovers during her marriage to the Duke. She did OK.

I used to follow Ben Ahlers on Instagram but his photos of himself and friends were just too scuzzy and disappointing. He's not cute and sexy in real life.

Surely you gents don't find Ben cute. It's too late, but his Zeppelin sized head should have been drained at some point in childhood.

R347, scuzzy how? Straight or gay? On Insta he and the guy who plays Larry come across as gay, or did.

R342 Ah the mysteries of "beauty" and its permutations that not all agree on. I found the semi-naked scenes of the Young Russell in bed with the cougar very arousing: the lithe body, the milky white skin, the dark body hair contrasted against that milky white skin.... he looked so vulnerable, so fuckable.

If Harry Richardson was 6'2" instead of 5'10 or 5'11 he'd be perfect.

Heightism rears its ugly head.

If Alarm Clock Jack went over to the clock company and presented hole I bet he could get that patent in no time.

The union standoff was so hard to watch at first, but then I clocked the many, [italic]many[/italic] cookie smellers among the extras on both sides, and I unclenched. Seriously, did all the NYU theatre queens sign up to be on this show, or what? I don't mind though, they're all cute as hell.

Gilded Age takes such liberties with dates. Just noting it, not complaining. Half the gilded age film locations hadn't been built when this story takes place.

Yes, Jack's alarm clock patent is another egregious example of that. However, that gives me hope that we might still see the Brooklyn Bridge stampede. Not to come across as heartless, but I want to see some people stamped to death; it's a natural part of life since time immemorial and we shouldn't shy away from depicting it.

That strike leader is such a terrible actor - and his speech impediment is distracting.

I expect to see him stamp his foot after every line he says.

He’s not trying to get a patent on the alarm clock. He’s trying to get a patent on a part he modified that makes the alarm clock more reliable. Nothing implausible about that.

Go, Jack! Go!

Well said, R358.

r349, "scuzzy" meaning his and his friends' heroin chic aesthetic with the ever-present cigarette dangling out of their lips. Nothing cuddly about Ben Ahlers IRL.

I think we’ll see the Brooklyn Bridge opening but not the stampede.

Ahlers seems to have a funny looking/shaped head on the show, less so in his Insta.

All the frauen were clutching their fake pearls at Cousin Dashiell's 'not a real teacher' throwaway line and immediately started shipping dull Marion and hot Larry. As if Bertha would allow any wife of her son (even an age appropriate one with some old money pedigree) to work in a school.

When will they finally give George and Marian the green light to marry? Season 3?

I like the clock story, even if it's stupid. In those days, the working class did not have much to make themselves happy.

He'd have to divorce Bertha first, R364. So maybe season four.

He’s a SMOOTH operator!

Sorry, meant Harry and Marian. ❤️

Was Bertha even in this latest episode?

^ Briefly, yes, she was fighting over the opera box

Yes r368, she was winning as usual. So boring!

R367, I thought his name was Larry?

Lots of Pumpkin in this episode. Fun fact, Blenheim Cavalier King Charles spaniels get the name of their coloring from Blenheim castle. Queen Anne’s mistress/lady in waiting Sarah Mitchell, the first Duchess of Marlborough, bred them. If the Duke of Buckingham is really based on Consuelo Vanderbilt’s first husband, maybe he’ll run into Pumpkin and wax poetic about how she reminds him of his family’s dogs.

For anyone tl;dr’ing the above link. Consuelo Vanderbilt, Duchess of Marlborough and Blenheim CKCS.

Wasn't Winston Churchill's mother American? Jenny?

Yes, she was American R374 and born in Brooklyn!

wow!

And played by Anne Bancroft in the movie! Anna Maria Italiano, from the Bronx.

I need to smell morgan spector's underarm hair

I'm sorry, but Morgan Spector both in this series and in photos in real life looks like he is poorly groomed and smells of stale cigars and very bad breath.

r379 which, I believe, is exactly what R378 is seeking.

pretty much

[quote] like the clock story, even if it's stupid. In those days, the working class did not have much to make themselves happy.

And we intend to keep it that way.

anyone else bothered by Bannister's pronunciation of the word "PAY-Tent"

r336 he looks like he could be RDJ's hairy son. Also, love how thirst actors are for attention.

I was wondering about Lillie Langtry. In England, she was a PB, a professional beauty and the mistress of the Prince of Wales. In the U.S., she was an actress, and not exactly respectable. Would that translate into an invitation to a high society dinner party in the U.S.? I'm not sure. In England, it would, she'd even been received at court. But would the uptight bitches at Newport accept her? I'm not sure. But maybe she was. I'm not sure.

r343 we need to add that her emotionally and physically abused daughter went forward with the marriage to the evil asshole Duke. Alva had already divorced her father and felt invincible. That marriage was also the ticket to get Alva back into the good graces of society, part of which turned their backs on her once she filed for divorce, a shocking action at the time. Most divorced women of high society were shunned from society in the US and UK. Alva having a wedding with a Duke as the groom forced all society to get over their divorce prejudices, because who would miss that wedding? Other divorced women soon found doors reopening to them that were once closed. So, Alva did other women a solid.

Alva's divorce was in March, Consuelo's wedding was in November. Same year. Alva was no fool.

Back to the wedding. Consuelo's father knew his daughter was miserable and if he wasn't so afraid of Alva, he would have stood up to his ex-wife to stop the marriage. But he walk his daughter down the aisle then slinked away. As predicted, the Duke took most of Ava's money, abused her, knocked her up a few times, then went off with his mistresses. But while he was away, Consuelo get her groove on and had loads of affairs of her own.

Eventually she was able to get their marriage divorced. Even Alva admitted the marriage did not work (no shit). Consuelo got to spend her days buying homes, that daddy was more than happy to buy. At one point, he tried to get the Crown to sell him Marlborough House for Consuelo. So, she had some rough years with the Duke and her mother, but lived a charmed life post-divorce.

Her wedding dress was serving Princess Di energy.

That is really interesting r386. And actually, Alva on the brink of disaster but then triumphing would be a better story than Bertha just kind of sailing through everything. Gladys would also suddenly become interesting, which honestly she just isn't right now.

One thing that was also interesting about those "dollar Princesses" if they could follow out the story a little, is just the contrast between growing up with the latest accommodations and finding themselves in England with rundown old estates, emphasis on the old, where nothing worked, everything was done by hand, and a bath meant some poor bitch running up and down stairs pouring boiling water into a tub.

r387 that would be interesting, but this show is more surface level then even Downton. The acting is...terrible.

That said, someone like Alva wouldn't spend a single day worrying about how things get done, only that they are getting done. Be it the UK or New York, if you want a bath, she is too rich to ever preside over the process, the perfectly warm water is waiting for her when she gets to the bathroom. How is immaterial. I think the transition could be good, but this show refuses to be anything beyond a paycheck to good and horrible actors and writers.

Morgan Spector's body's a 21st century marvel of working out and supplements (my suspicions). but I'm with others that he doesn't seem to have very good hygiene and his tattoos! Jesus... he has a wife who has to look a nude on one of his pecs and I don't what, crawling all over the other. yick...

Hygiëne looks good enough for me

I don't get the people who think the acting is terrible. With a couple exceptions, I think the acting is very good. The cast is full of respected actors and legends. But some DL think Sydney Sweeney and Jacob Elordi and acting geniuses, so...

Morgan Spector's tattoos and general scruffiness should come as no surprise once you realize his undergraduate degree is from Reed College.

Their male students are not noted for their Brooks Brothers-ready appearance.

I am fascinated by his marriage to Rebecca Hall now. She seems like quite an intelligent person. He seems like a preening diva. The sex must be amazing.

I don't mind tattoos, but Spector's are spectacularly bad.

For me, Morgan Spector looks better with more clothes on rather than less.

Does anyone else think the man who plays Church is among the worse actors? He gives off an amateur vibe. (I know he's not.)

No, r396.

I like both actors playing the butlers

Oscar and John Adams remind me of these guys

The actor playing butler Church is Jack Gilpin, father of supercool actress Betty Gilpin.

Those tattoos are tragic, particularly that monstrosity on his back.

I’ll take him in either case

Nope, R383. It's just the British way. I'd rather hear "pay-tent" than "pasta" with the A that sounds like "aeh."

I like seeing Simon Jones again after all these years. He was Bridey in "Brideshead Revisited" and Arthur Dent in "Hitchhiker's Guide." He's much better than Church, who can't keep his face straight and seems inauthentic.

The part of Arthur Dent was specifically written for Simon Jones. He was great friends with Douglas Adams before they were famous.

Yes r396, all of the downstairs actors in the Russell house are terrible. The butler is the only passible one in the bunch. Any queen pretending their line delivery is good must be stuck in some musical theater headspace. Their acting may work for the stage, but it's frustratingly out of step for TV, especially HBO!

I'm happy this show was giving Broadway actors some coins after the rough COVID years, but it's been at the expense of the show's quality. 90% of folks in DA could act. I don't know what's going on with the cast working as the Russell staff.

What's happening with Michael Cerveris and his planned re-settling in San Francisco? Have they abandoned that plot line?

Why do they even bother with the downstairs storylines? It already too many people to keep track of in two houses so are we really supposed to care about a creepy dad and his need to see his bitch of a daughter? We hardly know him as a character so there is zero emotional weight to that storyline.

You could say that about all of the characters on the series, r407.

Not really r408. This is about the Gilded Age. We are here for the rich folks drama. If this show was about the working class, it would probably be called "The Industrial Revolution" since they aren't being very creative with titles. I know JF didn't want a copy + paste of DA, but I think if they had just focused on the Russells trying to gain their footing it would have been a easier to flesh-out the staff's storylines. Maybe talk about some immigrants and their attempts to make it and getting a great job in a grand house.

There is a lot of juice to squeeze, but instead JF is rushing through the plots and storylines. We really should have given her son some flaws and maybe flesh out her daughter into a full character. It's just too little of everyone making the Russell staff's story seem tacked on. At least the Van Rhijn household cast has a stronger group of actors and more intimate storyline that makes sense. The Russell staff presentation feels scattered, rushed, and unnecessary.

Well Alva also had Marble House in Newport which opened in 1892. Same year as Goelet's Ochre Court. These two houses were over the top palaces many times more elaborate than anything before. Her brother in law was still in the old Breakers. That needed to burn down before the most magnificent was to be built.

By the way. Mrs. Russell's house in Newport is The Elms which didn't upen until 1901, almost 2 decades after the setting for the series The Gilded Age. Had to laugh when Ward McAllister painstakingly narrated that it was built many years before the Russells bought it, but the owners had gone quiet.

r409, I totally agree with you,. Not sure what what I wrote that set you off to disagree? ALL of the characters on the series are getting short shrift and we can't be invested in any of them.

r410 makes sense they used my The Elms (my favorite Newport mansion) because their house in the city closer to turn of the century townhouse then an 1880s one. I got a kick out of punting on a grand ball for the Duke to have a dinner. The real story, as told at The Elms was that a Swedish Prince or something landed in Newport. Every mother was setting up a ball hoping that the prince would be their guest of honor. The owners of The Elms won out in the end and everyone who is anyone was in attendance. It really was an arm's race for the Prince.

I was just in Newport for the first time this summer. One funny story at the Elms was that its ancient owner had an equally ancient Mrs. Vanderbilt over for cards. This is sometime between the 1940s-1960s. Anyway, the skeleton crew which included some yard workers doubling as footmen, only opened one of the grand front doors. The lady of the house had to sternly remind her staff that given Mrs. Vanderbilt's status, you must always open both doors upon her arrival and exit.

Even when the money, staff, and power started to dim, these people refused to let the side down. I got a kick out of that. Uh, The Elms is pure perfection, best home in Newport.

The Abbey itself was the focal point in DA. Fewer locations. Characters came and went from the Abbey itself. Mary's suitors, etc. We seldom felt as if we'd left the Abbey. It was easier to keep track of things. The Dowager Countess, and Matthews mother 's houses looked the same to me. As t he series matured we went to London, Edith had her apartment, and then there were the grand estates.

If any of you were also alive when dinosaurs roamed the earth you recall how Dynasty very quickly evolved. It was originally meant to be a triangle of rich Carringtons, middle class Blaisdels and adventures in the oil fields.

They figured out fast people only wanted to watch the big house and the clothes and jewels that went with it.

Dynasty aired a decade before my birth, but I actually just watched reruns of the early seasons. I was a fan of Dallas reruns in high school, didn't take to Dynasty till now. I still prefer Dallas. You can watch the early seasons of Dynasty on Amazon Prime. Very different vibe in S1.

Sadly, JF is never one to elevate his work. What you see in the beginning, is what you get.

I feel like they changed course about three times. I think originally Agnes was supposed to be Bertha's principal conflict, but they barely interact. Maybe Barnaski was originally meant to be Mrs. Astor? Then Mrs. Astor emerged as Bertha's big hassle and Baranski sat in her parlour. Now Turner's back for a bitch. There's so many stories going on.

I noticed HBO Max put out a promo for 24/25... no mention of GA but definitely of AJLT. I think the show's a goner. My quiet hope is Netflix, lacking a Crown, might pick it up. It feels far more Netflix to me than whatever's left of HBO's brand. HBO does period, yes, but you always associate it with much better writing than you get from Fellowes. He's perfectly suited to Netflix.

Seems to me that this series biggest fans all hate watch it, laughing derisively at every inept move. No one takes it seriously, it's totally ignored at the Emmys even for production and costume design. Best to just put it out of its misery and end it this season. It's an embarrassment.

R417, but not before Jack’s nude scene.

It's not that bad... it's just not very good. There's worse gets renewed. Generally this year was better than the first, so I expect someone with talent on the HBO side put their foot down. I can't tell who calls the shots... HBO, Max or the beancounters at Discovery. I think they're weakening that brand. I was looking at what's coming up after GA and Julia expire and there's nothing just see, so won't renew when my annual ends and will when something worth watching pops up. Binge and burn, baby, but they're not getting my money every month for the crap on offer.

I'll go back before DA.... there is a place in the American "Television" Equation for the "Masterpiece Theater" period-peace production: historical contexts, elite class with working class contrasts, art direction (sets, costumes), quasi-literate soap operas. The wide spaces of streaming disrupts that equation, of course. But TGA is claiming the DNA of Upstairs Downstairs, Brideshead and innumerable generics in those flavors.

So it meets a certain (diminishing year by year) demand. MAX will renew it just for this reason.

I hope we get one more. I think there's more to tell but I also think the creative engine, such as it is, is running out of gas.

It's so terrible you're all forced to watch this show you hate so much.

But at least you give everyone else the joy of listening to you piss and moan about it endlessly.

I think Rosecliff beats the Elms because it's a bit lighter and much more romantic. It's really a palace by the sea.

The latest from a crew member is they hear in January if it gets a Season 3 and shooting starts in June. But there’s a lot of speculation HBO will cancel it and it will get picked up by either Netflix or Apple,

If this season seems better, which I think is highly questionable, it's only because our expectations have been so lowered.

There is so much potential, so much talent (not in the writing tho) onboard, it just shocks me week after week how inept it all is. Yes, it looks expensive but that's just not good enough.

Have there been any breakout stars amongst the lesser known actors? Have Carrie Coon, Morgan Spector, Louisa Jacobson, Denee Benton, Ben Ahlers, Harry Richardson, et. al, seen their careers take off because of their performances on TGA?

Have any of them done any high profile projects in between S1 and S2? Are they doing anything interesting now?

Sadly, I think the series only spotlights their weaknesses.

Carrie Coon is a successful actress who works all the time and was successful before the show even started

It's fun to hate watch episodes once, but I never feel compelled to go back and see if I missed anything. the plotting is either predictable or just stupid.

There are too many characters for anyone to really break out as a star and they're all using rather little of their talents. We know already that Baranski is the modern Eve Arden. Coon and Spector seem wasted here and Nixon is just annoying.

Those of you hoping this character does this or this character does that or someone stays on the show must be reminded only 2 episodes remain of this season and a third season renewal is FAR from a sure thing. Pretty unlikely IMO.

r423 yes, Rosecliff wins on location and it's very beautiful inside, I hate the dark Victorian look of many Gilded Age mansions. But, it's the back half of The Elms that wins me over. So French, so balances, so beautiful.

The Elms feels like a palace. Rosecliff gives summer cottage vibes. Rosecliff fits the purpose but The Elms warmed my little gay heart.

I think if it gets renewed, HBO needs to finally put their foot down and demand a new writing room. Sorry, but JF has lost the plot wit this show.

It should be sexy, fun, and grand. Somehow Bridgeton gives us more real estate born, costume porn, and fun sex, all while delivering a rather alternative version of the lives of the upper class. I'd argue Bridgeton is the smarter show, has constantly hotter guys, and simply more fun with a plot that not 100% predictable for non book readers.

The GA is like the new Napoleon movie, just running from historical point to historical point with a moment to let anything breath. I've seen the British Classic PBS (BBC) style shows. They always take time for character development and it never feels like a rush. This can be put out of it's misery since it has nothing to say.

Bridgerton is not "smarter" than The Gilded Age in any way, shape, or form

Bridgeton? Is that about PT Barnum in Bridgeport?

r432 we don't have to agree but I'd say it's a much smarter show. Bridgerton has actual emotion and some character depth to the people on screen. It's also predictable but in a satisfying way. Rarely is the GA satisfying. It's not even campy.

Like this scene was more funny than any scene in GA.

Laughing so hard at the people calling The Gilded Age "inaccurate" but praising Bridgerton which is so far from the truth that it might as well be science fiction

Bridgerton is for morons.

I would say that Bridgerton is tacky fun eye candy.

Not to get too woo woo post-post Foucault fister, but the Gilded Age to Bridgerton comparison signifies a profound shift in human consciousness. For example: which image presents humans in their success or failure as an actor, writer, art direction... etc And which image just seems like was A.I.-generated.

Please discuss and submit on Monday.

Bridgerton is more like historical fan fiction.

I'm not a fan of Bridgerton but it gets an easy pass because it's not even trying to historically real like TGA. To me, the shows have very different goals.

I can't really wrap my head around a Black pharmacist whose clientele would be mostly working class or poor Blacks living in a luxurious house like that, even if it is in Brooklyn, with a wife and daughter changing their insanely elaborate ensembles 4 times a day.

Those characters would all be so much more empathetic if they were portrayed realistically.

Well, Dollar Stores have a poor clientele but I bet their CEOs are living in luxury....

Dollar Stores are a nation-wide chain, not a wooden storefront in Brooklyn in 1883.

R441, that's the point. Not all Black people were poor. There was a thriving Black middle class in Brooklyn, and the fact that he is a local businessman and pharmacist is very plausible. And it is also possible that he had a few white customers too

“I wanted very much to make ‘The Gilded Age’ distinctively American,” Fellowes said. “And I didn’t believe I could do that without having a Black narrative and a Black family alongside the others. It just didn’t feel right to, actually.”

Several years earlier, Fellowes had read “Black Gotham,” in which author Carla Peterson traces her family history to the Black elite of 19th century New York. “I had no idea, really, that there was a prosperous, upper-middle-class Black community in New York towards the end of the 19th century, based not in Harlem, but in Brooklyn,” Fellowes said. “And these were affluent people with status and businesses and families.”

That would be a great spinoff regarding the upper middle class Black community.

J. P. Morgan's Librarian was a Black woman.

J.P. Morgan's librarian was born in 1879 so she wasn't part of that era of the 1880's. She started working for Morgan in 1902.

If GILDED AGE isn’t renewed it won’t be because it doesn’t have an audience or the writing isn’t good enough. It’ll be be Warner Brothers is broke as a joke and this is probably currently HBO’s most expensive show. I think it’d be a shame for them to cancel though because HBO is losing its brand identity. They’re churning out a bunch of trash on Max and this is one of their few shows that you could still call “prestige TV”

The show’s viewers will tire of Bertha Russell and viewers will drop if she keeps winning all the damn time. Maybe George Russell and Turner need to sleep together to spice things up and balance this rivalry out between the ladies.

[quote]I can't really wrap my head around a Black pharmacist whose clientele would be mostly working class or poor Blacks living in a luxurious house like that, even if it is in Brooklyn, with a wife and daughter changing their insanely elaborate ensembles 4 times a day.

Look at George Jefferson. He had dry cleaning stores in working class neighborhoods and from that he could afford a deluxe apartment in the sky.

R445, yeah, it’s called the Jeffersons

[quote]I think it’d be a shame for them to cancel though because HBO is losing its brand identity. They’re churning out a bunch of trash on Max and this is one of their few shows that you could still call “prestige TV”

Agree. They are tanking the HBO brand. It was the Rolls Royce once (is Rolls Royce even Rolls Royce anymore? I don't know.) But now it's just down in the mud trying to make money with all the other Dollar Store streamers. This show is fine-ish but its cost, relative to its quality, is out of whack. They should move it to Netflix if they intend to keep it Fellowes quality level. The Crown was crap but it looked great and people watch.

I think they will have to include more interesting plotlines for other characters or Bertha's scheming will become tiresome. In fact all the scheming between her and the Astor contingent is wearing thin. I'm glad they introduced Turner the former maid into the mix to liven things up. I enjoyed Larry Russell's scandalous liaison with the older woman, and I'm definitely here for whatever Oscar is up to.

I remember how much I enjoyed Rome on HBO, and then discovered it was getting cancelled because it was "too expensive."

They put out a 24/25 promo the other day that included renewal of AJLT (though I think that had been announced previously.) Nothing about this show. I would guess the budget has a big bullseye on it.

Also, in any recent interview where the idea of renewal comes up, Carrie Coon has used the word if.

I know my Brooklyn brownstones and the black family's brownstone is nice and middle class but not more than that. Some neighborhoods had cavernous brownstones with very ornate interiors. They are not rich, just comfortably middle class blacks.

Until the end of WWII, NYC was 90% Non-Hispanic White. There were not many blacks and the series is fudging this for 1880.

In 1900 there were 3.4 million NYers, including 60K blacks, which was 1.76%.

R457, yes, but the concentration of wealth in a defined community is what the GA is focused on. I will give Julian credit for inclusion. Too many of these period pieces seem to ignore the existence of African Americans.

I like it

I'll also give him credit for making them prosperous (and, of all people, teaching us a little something.) I thought back then all black people lived in poverty. It was a good take.

I agree, R460.

My (white) uncle was a successful pharmacist in the 1950s/60s with his own business and did not own a brownstone in Brooklyn. He and his family lived in an apartment in the Bronx.

Peggy is probably the most interesting character on the show so I’m very glad her story was included. Unfortunately it is part of what makes the other “downstairs” characters less interesting since by comparison, her struggles are very real (sometimes life or death) and very dramatic, and theirs are pretty mild. When Peggy is on the run from an intended lynching in the deep South, and fighting discrimination in the school system, it’s hard to care about whether poor little what’s her name is going to be demoted from being Bertha’s lady’s maid to (gasp!) merely being Gladys’s because she can’t figure out how to put a tiara on right.

Well, would you want to be put in charge of trying to make Gladys look presentable?

R464 she’s fine. She’s no raging beauty, but this was the 1800s. If you had all your teeth and hair and hadn’t been scarred by smallpox you were doing pretty well in the looks department.

[quote]I think if it gets renewed, HBO needs to finally put their foot down and demand a new writing room.

I don't see how it gets renewed given the ratings.

When season 1 began, it had 463,000 viewers and then climbed to 813,000 by the last episode.

This season it started with 452,000 viewers and as of episode 6 it's gone up to only 593,000.

That’s still about 400-500K more viewers than most other HBO shows, though it may not justify the production cost. I think their other problem is that though the more balanced storylines for the large ensemble make the whole show more enjoyable to watch this season, I’m not sure any of the actors have had a juicy, focused enough storyline to get an Emmy nod this year.

R439 - more like hysterical fan fiction, right? I kid, I kid. I enjoyed the frivolous, ahistorical escapism the series brought me.

I can't see Julian putting forth all that e ffort if he didn't get at least some verbal assurances that they'd have at least a 3 season arc. It takes time for a story to find it's audience. I know when DA first aired I was like WTF? I always think if the SNL skit with Salma Hayek where they did a mock trailer for the first movie. "It's a story...about cleaning..." Truthfully Maggie Smith and Hugh Bonneville really anchored it.

r453, what’s the point of bringing back Turner if Bertha keeps winning all the damn time.

Yeah DOWNTON ABBEY didn’t really become a hit in the US until a few seasons in, and it helped them that there was a significant time delay between when seasons were released in the UK and US — so it was already a solid hit in Britain and the American market was just extra cash.

R466, those numbers are just the "live" numbers, not the number of people who are watching it on streaming

Euphoria gets mediocre live ratings but tons of people stream it

Turner makes no sense as an opponent for Bertha. She lacks social clout, especially now that everyone knows her big "secret." Mrs. Astor basically tossed her and her husband out of The Academy due to her having ladies maid cooties.

Turner is also simply NOT pretty enough. Am I not allowed to say that these days? How the fuck did this mediocre horse-faced actress get cast??

The whole Turner story is ludicrous. Doesn't matter who her husband is, she'd never be invited anywhere. IF Bertha has to fight to get anywhere socially, than this former ladies maid would be dead in the water before she even started. The plotline might have worked much better if she hadn't worked for a rich family in town, and was a mystery.

R475: It's a rehash of sorts of a DA plot where a "downstairs" person bettered herself as a secretary and then became the wife of a "gentleman". It smoothed by her good relations with the downstairs people and her gratitude for Lady Sybil helping propelling her life forward. fellowes really can't help but recycle, much as Edith is recycled in Ada and the Russell daughter.

I think the implication is supposed to be that Turner’s husband is senile and/or has dementia because he definitely has not yet caught on about her having been working class yet even though Mrs. Astor dropped all the hints

Well, Julian, could we have had at least one scene with Turner and her new husband establishing their relationship and him as a character and how she might have hooked him so that we might care actually about that insane plot line??

Jeeeez, the writing on this show is abysmal. So many of you are just turned on by a flashy bustle.

^ Well, you're the one watching every episode.

It didn't matter if Downton was a hit in the U.S. Downton was a co-production with PBS, which isn't a commercial network. It made no money save how it contributed to the PBS grovelthons. It aired three to six months in the US after it aired on the commercial UK channel. I assume PBS got a cut of licensing in other markets.

R452, Bentley is the new RR rebrand.

Oh, julian , , ,

Nice to see the show threw a couple of lines to cute blond Lachlan Quartermouse, who played the main Russell footman.

I don't want to post any spoilers for tonight's episode, so I'll just say that the Brooklyn Bridge fireworks sequence was spectacular (for CGI), that Mrs. Hamilton Fish's "This is very thrilling!" made me laugh out loud, and bully for the Urmachers Verein!

Well, I can see where Mrs. Astor is up to, can anyone else? NO SPOILERS. But it's killing me.

Season Finale next week! Eight episodes isn't enough. I hope it gets renewed

Beyond the Opera War, do you mean, R485? No, I don't suspect anything else.

People keep saying that it's boring that Bertha always wins, but I don't have a problem with it. She did have that giant dud of a party at the beginning of the series, at least.

It suddenly occurred to me in this episode: what the heck is the Duke of Buckingham doing there, anyway? One visit to America I can understand, but why is he now the pet Englishman of the New York set? Are we to learn more about him and his motives, or is he just a plot device?

R487, please see R485.....

For what?

The Rev. Robert Sean Leonard has left Ada a boatload of money, right?

Fellowes usual trick is to bankrupt you for no more than two episodes, so probably, R490.

R485? What do you mean? What is Mrs. Astor’s scheme other than getting Bertha to the Academy and dropping the Metropolitan?

R487; he doesn't seem to mind standing up one invitation for a better offer. He baile on Turnerton for Bertha and then Bertha for Mrs.Astor. I don't know if it's bad writing or we're meant to be on to him.

This was a good episode. Ada's true love, marriage and death of her husband were dispensed with in just a few hours. We knew that Oscar would be bankrupt, but I didn't realize he bet everyone else's money. I am sure Agnes will throw around a lot of plates next week. And the staff good news around the clock and the valet being able to see his daughter and get a new free apartment were very nice. The show is very uplifting, given that the world is so shitty now.

I think dead Rev is the new Lavinia.

Mrs. Astor's scheme was on full display in this episode. I will not spoil it or say another word.

I felt so terrible for Oscar.....

The Van Rijns are broke bitches!!!!

I think other people must have been swindled by that pair. So maybe Oscar goes off to Europe in search of "Miss Beaton" and he does recover some of the money. At least that's how I'd write it. Oscar needs redemption. And if anyone saw the trailer they will see exactly what I meant at R485 about Mrs. Astor.

The first rule of soap opera is to resolve things slowly, partly because it means you don't have to keep coming up with more plots---Oscar's failure, Jack's impending patent, Mrs. Aston's cunning, the daughter rescuing her downstairs' father and the reverend's demise. All too much for one episode.

Thankfully Oscar had John Adams to console him.

Remember when Robert Crawley (Lord Grantham) from Downtown Abbey place a large sum of money in a railroad stock and almost made the family go bankrupt?

Well, it's happened again.

Yes, John Adams was there for him, but I fear Oscar gives in too easily to despair. as his mama said, "Well, get it back!" In Julian Fellowes world I don't think Oscar will be allowed to face complete and total ruin. He will have to work for it, but redemption will be his at some point down the road. So does Marian break up with Dashiell next week?

Thank you, R502. So the immediate solution is for Oscar to find a very wealthy young heiress. He may find such a one in Europe. Because in his set the scandal of his ruin would be too embarrassing.

Julian Fellowes is going to end on the greatest number of cliffhangers in a single ending episode, or a HUGE fuck you to HBO.

It is brilliant writing. I am downloading the episode now, but have a feeling that he is doing the equivalent of bankrupting the Crawleys, having Edith AND Marigold die from brain tumors and having Lady Mary Josephine Talbot's husband finally die in an automobile fire all in one epsode.

But don't worry, next week Oscar will visit the Turkish Baths of the lower east side and where a travelling sultan will give him a longing glance, have a heart attack and allow Oscar to escape with carpet bag so full of money he'll have twice as much money as he ever!

The solution is obvious, Marion has to marry Larry Russell and they'll all be rich again.

A great big purse dropped out of Mr. Fane’s mouth when he spoke that one line in the dinner scene.

I know it won’t happen but I’d love a big, strapping, black Irish teacher turn out to be Marian’s next love interest. That would definitely raise Agnes’ ire, pardon my pun.

Dashiell will not be happy about Marian attending the Opera with young Mr Russell.

What would Oscar have to offer anyone as a husband?

The best surprise anal a gal ever had?

So the valet will stay in NY and take his place in society? And no one will recognize him as the guy who scrubbed skidmarks out of Mr Russell's manties?

Does George hate Oscar because he knows he's a fag?

R510 you're right. IMO the best he can hope for is to find a "new money" heiress like the RUssell Girl, but obviously not her, and marry her. He has his good name to offer. So it would be like him marrying up as Turner did when she married mr. Winterton.

Marian's dumping Dashiell, I can see it. He will express his displeasure about Larry. He will voice "concerns" about her involvement with the Schools, and she will finally tell him, in t he nicest way, to FUCK OFF.

I'm sitting here thinking about that scam. That young woman presented herself as a member of society. She got around. So she is going to have to hide. My guess is she goes to San Francisco or goes to Chicago, or to Europe.

They have to do a season 3, if only for the wedding of Marion and Larry.

[quote]R113 I sure hope Oscar loses all his money. He is a sniveling weirdo.

I have no sympathy. Closeted fortune hunter got swindled.

Waaaa!

[quote]R180 most women liked bright colors, even respectable ones. It's a myth that Victorians wore bland colors.

Yes. And the period’s gas lighting wasn’t as bright as the forthcoming electric light, and so loud colors would have read as somewhat duller indoors (where middle and upper class ladies spent most of their time.)

Aniline dyes, which allowed for the brighter colors, was invented in1856 and quickly became all the rage.

Fortunately, Agnes is an investor in Jack’s Magic Alarm Clock

R490 that's what I'm thinking, too.

R518 which will also be used as a makeshift vibrator.

Would Agnes really be dumb enough to leave Oscar in charge of the entire family fortune?

[quote]Would Agnes really be dumb enough to leave Oscar in charge of the entire family fortune?

That's why I'm thinking she's just as much to blame as he is. When you know your son is a ne'er do well and a nitwit, you don't allow any access to the family fortune.

R521 That was my thought too. What financial structure of this "old money" does the oldest son have complete authority over? Even if it was just "savings" in a bank, wouldn't Agnes need to sign off on any complete withdrawal. By the 1880s large wealth would be more than just savings accounts, I'd think - owning properties, businesses (stocks), etc. Oscar could liquidate everything and put it in one check without Agnes's knowledge and signing off? Unlikely.

But then it's just a soap opera... so facts are bent to the service of plot developments.

Well, legally I suspect so much was in the hands of the male heir r522 and r523. I think that's a whole thing in itself at that time, complete male control of the money even when they were total fuckups and the women could have managed it so much better. On the other hand, you'd probably have to go to the will of Agnes' late husband, and I'm sure they will, to see exactly what provisions were made for the widow. although sometimes it was just the house for the life of the widow, but I assume we'll find out.

Looking at the preview for next week’s season finale, it looks as though Bertha Russell ultimately wins again. 💤🥱

If that happens, I may need to call it quits and don’t bother with the next season. I hate writing like this.

The plot holes are as wide as Mamie Fish's bustles.

On DA such financial difficulties rarely last more than an episode. Then some Deus Ex Machina solution presents itself. Here, the Reverend’s unexpected estate will no doubt play the part.

I'm assuming the duke is more present next season when Bertha tries to throw Gladys at him.

What an ominous but also epic music at the end of this week's episode. So dramatic, loved it!

Still hopeful for the Brooklyn Bridge stampede in the season (series?) finale next week. Just one cracked skull, really not asking for the moon here, people.

John Adams gently caressing Blake Ritson's wig was quite touching. But let's be real, that queen had it coming.

Bertha's glitzy tiara made my mouth water. This lucky bitch.

I know it's a soap opera and not The Age of Innocence but my god this is such a slog with so much cringe.

The dialogue makes me wish French & Saunders were still doing their parodies.

"So Mr Bonnet, I was so relieved you managed to avoid bankruptcy by selling your daughter to an Arabian prince who turned out to be a bigamist! But then your daughter turned out to be a lesbian and ran off with a Portuguese heiress who decided to invest in your company on condition you start making walking sticks in your factory"

Because the writing on this show is so terrible, it hasn't presented anyone other than Agnes as being the head of the Van Rhijn family. It's her house, her staff, and presumably her money. While it's logical that Oscar would be the heir, the show has never shown him remotely in that role. He doesn't even live in the house.

Tiara envy? My my.

What I don't understand is why Oscar has Liza's hair.

I'm wondering if next episode Bertha will promise Gladys to the Duke in order to get him to come to the Met opening. We did not see him sitting in the box with Mrs. Astor, Ward McAllister, Agnes, and Oscar the opening night of the Academy's season in the preview for the coming episode.

I am fully expecting next season to be all about Gladys being forced to marry the Duke anyway next season by her mother anyway, since that parallels what happened with the real life analogies to the characters (Gladys = Consuelo Vanderbilt, the Duke of Buckingham = the Duke of Marlborough, Bertha = Alva Vanderbilt Belmont).

A writing error that didn't ruin the episode for me, but I noticed nonetheless:

It doesn't make sense that Mrs. Fish didn't already recognize Maud Beaton, as a fraud since Maud was being introduced all over Newport and Manhattan society as a Stuyvesant on her mother's side. Mrs. Fish's own husband was a Stuyvesant (in fact, "Stuyvesant" was his first name), and in those days anyone affiliated with that family--one of the most prestigious of all in the "Knickerbocker aristocracy"--would have absolutely prided themselves on knowing who everyone else was who was affiliated with the family name.

The threat of the central wealthy family losing everything was a constant go-to plot on "Downton Abbey," and every single time it came to nothing. So I doubt the Van Rhijn's will have to pack it in down in the slums with Armstrong's mother (though that would actually make for an interesting storyline).

*"Van Rhijns," not "Van Rhijn's"

Sorry--I actually should know better.

I really expected Agnes to fall on the floor kicking and screaming while yelling at Oscar.

I want to see Agnes, Marian, Oscar, and Ada living in a van down by the river

I wouldn't be surprised if Maud Beaton is ultimately revealed to be an unwitting pawn in the financial scandal and we next find her working in a Chinese laundry, prisoner to a white slavery ring.

This shit show practically writes itself.

Christine Baranski was great at the end of the episode reacting to Oscar's bad news. It was the first time I felt duirng the entire show's run she was actually acting at the level she's capable of, rather than just being arch and mannered.

Well, it was the first time I was given something to act, r541!

Those scammers were real pros. They set up a fake office. She has a fake address, and Oscar is totally duped. And how long did it take? a few months? Maybe 2-3? My speculation is that the pair have been working the rich folks for a while this is not their first rodeo....nor their last. Bet they get busted. After all, he did give false and misleading information to Oscar. When Oscar spoke to George Russell, Russell told him no such company ever bid against him, nor had he ever heard of them. And "miss Beaton" will rat that older guy out...unless he's her father... Oscar sitting there drunk, wringing his hands and insisting nothing can be done, is about to get bitch-slapped into doing something because Agnes will never accept that nothing can be done.

[quote]I want to see Agnes, Marian, Oscar, and Ada living in a van down by the river

Mr. Church, are you sure about these new servants? The elderly one asked why I had a persian lamb coat on my head.

[quote] Those scammers were real pros. They set up a fake office. She has a fake address, and Oscar is totally duped. And how long did it take? a few months? Maybe 2-3? My speculation is that the pair have been working the rich folks for a while this is not their first rodeo....nor their last. Bet they get busted.

Apparently this was actually a common confidence scheme in the late 19th century (and other times), even down to the detail of giving the investor an initial high return on his first investment to lure him in for a much bigger one.

r487 the Duke could be on a grand tour of the Americas with a scheduled ticket back to the UK via NYC.

The Duke probably will go anywhere as long as someone who he thinks he's "my Duke" is paying.

We already know the Duke is supposed to represent Charles Spencer-Churchill, 9th Duke of Marlborough. While he was never broke, his family's wealth was dwindling. So, of course the duke would be happy to vacation on someone else's dime.

Also, I'm sure the Marlboroughs curse Queen Anne's ghost for saddling them with the MASSIVE Blenheim Palace. Consuelo Vanderbilt complained that it was impossible to keep the place warm so she was always freezing in the winter. I'm sure she missed the modern mansions she had growing up. Kitchens were undesirable for the noise and smell so the kitchens are tucked far away from the dinning room, meaning Consuelo's guests had to contend with cold food.

I'm sure she hated that damn place.

I've been to it. It's palatial but not very nice. The state rooms left me flat. Wilton, Chatsworth, Arundel... all nicer, grander peers.

I was wondering if Mrs. Astor was after the Duke for her own daughter, competing with Bertha .

r549 it was basically the McMansion of palaces. Wins in square footage, but lacking in style or grace.

R551: precisely. You captured it better than I. But from the outside, very grand.

The actor playing Oscar reminds me of Stanley Whiplash.

Snidely Whiplash?

This is a very grand enfilade.

The Russell’s bedroom looks like Belle Watling’s Ho House in Atlanta, GA.

R543, that Miss Beaton was a good faker and almost fooled me, but the minute I saw her waiting outside for Oscar rather than being met inside and escorted out, I knew she was in on it.

I thought it was Snidely Whiplash.

I am sure the Duke of Buckingham is in the USA looking for a rich American heiress to marry, as so many impoverished aristocrats did at that time.

I agree R559, but will it be an Astor or a Russell?

When will Clarence Day be introduced and revealed as a wife beater?

Knowing Fellowes, I wouldn't be surprised if Maude Beaton was caught in the season finale, gave Oscar his money back, begged him for forgiveness, only to then be tragically crushed in the Brooklyn Bridge stampede in the very next moment. Wouldn't that be a neat little bow to tie everything together. But, like someone upthread mentioned, I'd really like to see Agnes destitute, at least for a little while. She really is nothing without her fortune.

r555 Oh man, that is some gaudy shit, Trump would love it.

Vincent Astor inherited a fortune estimated at more than $87 million when his father, John Jacob IV, died on the Titanic in 1912. William Henry Vanderbilt died worth 200 million in 1885 and this fortune was distributed among sons AND daughters (though not evenly) and I'm sure many had squandered quite a bit by the 1910s.

I hadn't thought about it but the Astor old money fortune was as large as the new money, which frequently got divided heavily and squandered. I always assumed the new money was several times larger than the old.

well perhaps my original assumption is correct. I just googled and Rockefeller's fortune (Rockefeller was new money) peaked in 1912 at almost $900,000,000. So that is exponentially larger than Astor's.

[quote] I agree [R559], but will it be an Astor or a Russell?

It would have to be a Russell.

All four of Mrs. Astor's daughters (and her only son, for that matter) married fellow Americans in high society.

"Every great fortune begins with a crime..."

What sort of crime did Agnes' and Ada's Dutch ancestors do, that they managed to amass so much fortune?

Here's one old NY Dutch family, courtesy of wiki:

The Van Rensselaer family of the Manor of Rensselaerswyck, is a family of Dutch descent that was prominent during the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries in the area now known as the state of New York. Members of this family played a critical role in the formation of the United States and served as leaders in business, politics, and society. Beginning with Kiliaen van Rensselaer (merchant) was a Dutch diamond and pearl merchant from Amsterdam who was one of the founders and directors of the Dutch West India Company, being instrumental in the establishment of New Netherland. He founded the Manor of Rensselaerswyck in what is now mainly New York's Capital District. His estate remained throughout the Dutch and British colonial era and the American Revolution as a legal entity until the 1840s. Johan van Rensselaer was the second patroon of the Manor of Rensselaerswyck, was the eldest son of Kiliaen van Rensselaer, and his first wife, Hillegonda van Bylaer.

Agnes married into an old NY Dutch family. They are not Dutch themselves, are they?

Possible real life inspiration for Maud Beaton.

[quote]Agnes married into an old NY Dutch family. They are not Dutch themselves, are they?

I completely forgot about that. So Agnes is a common whore by birth? Bitch acts like she's the queen of the Netherlands.

NO Agnes came from Pennsylvania (?) money - not sure how much, but it was explained that she was VERY lucky to marry the mean Van Rhijn because she and Ada had nothing from their father - their brother got it. And their brother lost it and died broke.

And yet she goes on about the poor that Marian is teaching like they're the scum of the earth, you'd think she'd be more understanding, what with her and her sister's past.

Well Agnes is a snob. She has had NO joy in her life, either. But I think they were shabby American gentility for a few generations. It's a fictional character as far as I know so difficult to say. I don't think the Russels are EXACTLY the Vanderbilts and the "Vanderbilts" are mentioned as other characters existing in this series.

If the Russells are still modeled on Vanderbilt stories, this would be 3rd generation Vanderbilts. William K, grandson of the Commodore. So he wouldn't have been a "bootstrapper" as Russell is portrayed. And his Mrs. Vanderbilt, Alva, was schooled in France. Socially ambitious but born rich and very sophisticated.

I was let down by Chester A. Arthur's cameo. I thought they'd have him crack a joke or two like Oscar Wilde, but it was just some non-union lookalike they snatched off the street. Mrs. Astor was talking to him and he looked like he was staring at the wall through her; zero reaction to the poor actress interacting with him.

Pennsylvania money could be Swedish, Quaker, or English. It also could be Scots-Irish, but that's less likely as they often came as indentured servants or otherwise broke.

Their name is Brook.

The Irish were used as servants.

R514, I see it as Marian wanting to break off w Dashell, but Auntie trying to force her to go through w it because Dashell & his creepy daughter got some cash.

Grover Cleveland was the governor of New York that year, it would have made a lot more sense to have him at the opening instead of the mute president. And the viewers would recognise the name as well. Or Teddy Roosevelt who was minority leader of the New York State Assembly at the time.

Honestly, this show could do with a lot more fun cameos by historical personalities. It's a campy show anyway, so might as well lean all the way into it.

Right now Julian seems to be following the formula of DA, even to featuring celebrated Opera stars of the day.

r577, they were basically white Negros in rich homes. And so hilarious caricatured by Hetty on Ghosts. Hetty has mentioned on many occasions the number of Robber Barons she interacted with. It would be brilliant if Hetty mentioned what a pill Bertha Russel was to Mrs Astor. I get that Hetty and Agnes would have been good friends.

From the Ghosts wiki: She was at Mamie Fish's cotillion and she wanted to know if she had the most comely ankles in the episode Attic Girl.

In the episode Possession she has mentioned that she met a Vanderbilt before. In the episode Halloween 2: The Ghost of Hetty's Past, she also talks about meeting Mrs. Astor.

Brilliant I tell you.

Interesting how things were set up. Irish were the house servants, Jews were merchants and tradesmen. Italians were laborers. The term WASP had real meaning. They ruled. Not a lot of social mobility, and then you had the industrial revolution and slowly and painfully the social order was upended. The German clockmakers were a good example of a closed society that grudgingly allowed our Jack to come in.

[quote] I completely forgot about that. So Agnes is a common whore by birth? Bitch acts like she's the queen of the Netherlands.

Agnes said in the first episode she and the other Brooks are Livingstons through their maternal line, which was (in real life) one of the most prestigious of all the families in the old Knickerbocker aristocracy.

[quote]Grover Cleveland was the governor of New York that year, it would have made a lot more sense to have him at the opening instead of the mute president.

In real life, both Governor Grover Cleveland and US President Chester Arthur were there.

So I don't know what you mean by implying it did not make "sense" for Chester Arthur to be there--he really WAS there.

I meant more that it made little sense for the president to be there and not say anything. It's a bit odd that we didn't get a single line from him.

The Livingston family:

Would it be feasible for Agnes to hire the Pinkertons to track that scammer down?

Regarding Oscar having control over Agnes’ money: I had a great, great aunt who grew up in high-society Brooklyn during that time. In fact, her father was invited to the opening of the bridge. I still have the invitation. Anyway, her brother gambled away their money. When she married my great, great uncle, she had little money, but a boat load of family heirlooms that she was able to turn into cash over the years. For example, she had a tea set made by a student of Paul Revere that she sold to go on a South American vacation.

r586 I see Eleanor Roosevelt was one of them. She was gestating in the womb during the events of this last episode!

The Bushes, too.

Was anyone else surprised that the creepy daughter was mentioned to be 14 years old? She looks 30 and plays the part like she's six.

Somebody said she's played by one of those Ukranian imposters.

I don't have a problem with older actors playing kids because we all know how difficult and outright shit child actors can be – and they should be in school, not on a set, anyway – but yes, this particular actress is quite creepy to look at. Creepy vibe, too.

Thank you for the info that the Brooks are Livingstons. That explains a lot.

Creepy Frances is going to go on a Dynasty like killing spree in the season finale. Rev. Uncle Luke will then come down from the heavens with David’s Sling & end her wicked ways with a stone to the temple. He will then swoop Pumpkin into his angelic wings and return to his reward awaiting Ada’s death by natural causes on Christmas Eve 1899.

The first prominent Livingston in America, Robert "the Elder" became a lord of Livingston Manor, a vast estate granted by George I. Present day northern Dutchess and mostly Colombia County. He was fluent in Dutch and he had his hand in everything in Colonial New York. He owned slaves, worked in the Atlantic Slave Trade, and the manor also served as a plantation running on "German Palatine refugee" indentured labour. Unfortunately for the Livingstons, they divided up the manor through 3 generations and lost that wealth. They sided with the rebels in the Revolution. Also the Revolution meant the third lord lost the title, of course. Heavily intermarried with the Dutch old families.

R585 it was the director's choice. What was most important to him and to the story is what's going on amongst our characters with the Bridge being in the background except for the role of the woman engineer. There was obviously a ceremony of some kind, and a public program with a public speech, but that happened somewhere "off stage" The President's presence was important because it confirms Mrs. Astor's continuing importance, but what the President did or said was not important to the story.

CANCEL THE LIVINGSTONS!

I disagree, I would like to have seen at least one quip from him, for he IS the President of these United States, after all.

But whatever, the damage is done. As long as I get my stampede next week, I'll be happy.

R545 - and still a common one today. People want to be on the inside track, and that activates greed and arrogance. Personally, I would have taken that initial huge return (lure) and ended my association right there. I guess that's why gambling doesn't appeal to me. I'd always stop if I got a large chunk of winnings.

I hope it's a Moldavian stampede with lots of potential deaths!

In summation, I just want Larry to find a nice man for himself before all is said and done.

Did I miss it in the show - how much money did Oscar lose since it was most of Agnes's money?

How much money would Agnes have actually had to live and partake in society as she did? As with Austen novels, could we assume she was invested in the equivalent of 4 or 5 percents (Georgiana's £30K would have generated £1200-1500 annual income - compared to Bingley's £5000/year).

According to United States Census data, between 1880 and 1890, the average annual wage for an industrial worker rose from $380 to $564. So, Agnes must have been paying her staff at least that much - her butler was excited, but not in utter amazement at the $100 he was offered to help at the Russell party. $3000-4000 (chef, maid, butler, clock guy, younger maid, ladies maid).

Agnes must have had something in the neighborhood of $200-300K earning $8-12K/year to live like that?