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Israel Under Attack from Land and Air: Part 7

One month later the Zionists are winning the war.

The people who celebrated the October 7th attacks along the lines of "resistance is beautiful" now cry themselves to sleep because Jew are using force to get their kidnapped children back.

And Hamas sympathisers cry genocide, sharing photos of dead Syrian children they gave no fucks about a decade ago.

by Anonymousreply 382December 8, 2023 3:23 PM

It really is quite beautiful, seeing Hamas plead for a short ceasefire so they can regroup, they're getting their cocks cleaned like few expected. I'm thinking no more Hamas before the end of the year. Free Palestine is slowly crystallising into existence thanks to Israel!

by Anonymousreply 1November 14, 2023 9:28 AM

There's conflicting information about Noa Marciano, a 19 year old kidnapped by Hamas.

Some reports are saying a hostage video has been released, some saying that Hamas have claimed she was killed in an airstrike.

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by Anonymousreply 2November 14, 2023 9:43 AM

IDF released a statement, saying she's dead.

[quote]The IDF spokesperson confirmed that Sgt. Noa Marziano (19), an army look-out who was abducted by Hamas, was killed. The IDF spokesperson announced last night that a representative arrived at her family’s home after Hamas published a video of her and clarified that it was psychological terror.

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by Anonymousreply 3November 14, 2023 10:02 AM

Thanks R3. The BBC reported this:

The Israeli military has confirmed the death of a 19-year-old Israeli who was kidnapped by Hamas on 7 October.

Noa Mariciano was described as a fallen soldier. No cause of death is given, but the IDF says her family has been notified.

As we reported last night, a video was shared widely online in which Marciano identifies herself and says she had been held for four days. The footage then cuts to graphic images which appear to show the body of a young woman.

There is the normal assumption - as with all hostage videos - that the words are not her own

Hamas claimed that Mariciano was killed in an Israeli air strike.

by Anonymousreply 4November 14, 2023 10:54 AM

The real reason for Israel's attack on Gaza and the depopulation of the Strip's northern region: taking control of the enormous natural gas and oil reserves off the Gaza Strip's coast and developing the Ben Gurion canal that would lend Israel (and its main allies, the US and Europe) enormous power, as they would be able to sideline Egypt's Suez canal and profit directly from international trade. They would also have direct participation, not to mention a considerable amount of control, over China's new Silk Road initiative.

As always, the real motivation behind most wars is the assumption of control over natural resources and economic zones.

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by Anonymousreply 5November 14, 2023 12:10 PM

Information about the Bed Gurion canal...

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by Anonymousreply 6November 14, 2023 12:11 PM

R5 does Israel’s presence in northern Gaza have anything to do with the October 7th massacres or the hostages held there or is it just for the oil?

by Anonymousreply 7November 14, 2023 12:16 PM

It's just for the oil, R7, as well as achieving full control over the potential Ben Gurion Canal, which would be opened in Northern Gaza and cross the Negev Desert to the Red Sea. If Israel expels Palestinians to an impoverished Egypt that doesn't have exclusive control of maritime trade anymore, and they seize the oil and gas reserves of the Gaza Strip's coast, they will become extremely powerful and will be able to have an influence on the OPEC's policies, as well as the New Silk Road. The reasons are economic and Hamas orchestrated the October 7 intervention in order to try and drag the rest of Arab countries into a conflict with Israel, so the Netahyahu government wouldn't be able to simply expel them and take control over these VERY valuable natural and trade resources.

The real motivation behind this war is economic - Israel wants more power over the region and the US wants to use it to be able to exert control over Europe's energy market and Eurasian Trade. The Palestinians want their slice off this cake, but neither Israel nor America want to share it with them - so, they faced expulsion or annihilation for economic purposes, or had to find a way to politically isolate Israel and force them to make concessions. So far, we still have to see who will be successful in the end.

by Anonymousreply 8November 14, 2023 12:37 PM

The Ben Gurion canal seems to be twice as long as Suez and further away from western European ports so there's zero reasonanyone would believe it would be profitable. Also this theory seems to ignore the fact Israel-Egyptian government relations are relatively functional even now as the occasional Israeli missile lands in Sinai, and have been for decades.

by Anonymousreply 9November 14, 2023 12:47 PM

And, R9? The Nicaraguan canal would also be much longer than the current Panama canal, but it would provide an economic and political counterbalance to the US-controlled Panama and furthermore, it would shorten the overall trade route for all Northern Hemisphere ships. You also forget that the Gulf of Aqaba is shorter than the Gulf of Suez, which means that for most effects, the distance is roughly the same (in fact, the distance between Northern Gaza an Port Said is only 109 miles). Which route is used would be a matter of choice, but it would definitely provide Israel with considerable power - you cannot possibly deny that.

by Anonymousreply 10November 14, 2023 12:59 PM

Also, Israel has a functional relationship with Egypt, but they are neither allies nor friends. Israel doesn't owe anything to Egypt and most importantly, this is a matter of economic power, which both Israel and the US seek.

by Anonymousreply 11November 14, 2023 1:00 PM

batshit conspiracy theorists

by Anonymousreply 12November 14, 2023 1:04 PM

“One month later the Zionists are winning the war.”

Clearly not, considering you need to start one propaganda thread after another.

by Anonymousreply 13November 14, 2023 2:13 PM

R8, do you have any evidence for this epic plan? The natural gas under the ocean by Gaza has been eyed for years. Israel and the US have supported allowing Palestine to sell it, but Hamas has gotten in the way. And there are no significant oil reserves in Gaza, Israel, or Palestine. Not that this will stop your imagination.

by Anonymousreply 14November 14, 2023 2:23 PM

[quote]Clearly not, considering you need to start one propaganda thread after another.

As long as Hamas sympathisers beg for a ceasefire it’s clear Israel are winning.

The people who never wanted Israel to exist are emboldened with their hatred of its existence but when Jews say never again they mean it.

by Anonymousreply 15November 14, 2023 2:28 PM

[quote] considering you need to start one propaganda thread after another.

I'm going to have to post this in the next Heartstopper thread when they start new thread #653

by Anonymousreply 16November 14, 2023 3:18 PM

[quote] The real motivation behind this war is economic - Israel wants more power over the region

Oh it’s just like those sneaky Jews! Amiright R8?

by Anonymousreply 17November 14, 2023 3:54 PM

Another screening by Israeli authorities for foreign journalists. Here’s what we saw and heard:

1: Two dead women lying on the grass at musical festival - both with no pants on. One has her panties taken half off. The other doesn’t appear to have any on at all.

2: Eyewitness describing how she saw a woman being raped by several Hamas terrorists, pulling her hair as they raped her and took turns. One of them cut her breasts off - the others played with them like a toy. The last terrorist to rape her shot her in the head and continued to rape her until her finished. Eyewitness also says some terrorists were carrying heads in their hands (beheaded) as trophies, saying there wasn’t a thing the didn’t do to the heads. She also saw a Hamas terrorist carrying a naked girl over his shoulder.

3: Police say they are still gathering evidence (DNA etc) from rape victims in addition to eyewitnesses to build the strongest case possible.

4: 18 people from the music festival are in psychiatric hospitals, according to police.

5: And for those wondering why police aren’t releasing graphic video and photo documentation to the entire world; out of respect for the victims. It’s an ongoing investigation. Releasing evidence in cases like this to the public is not custom anyhow.

by Anonymousreply 18November 14, 2023 4:32 PM

A 12 year old girl confirmed dead after her remains were found in a burned down house. Her twin brother and grandparents also murdered.

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by Anonymousreply 19November 14, 2023 4:43 PM

[quote]The Ben Gurion canal seems to be twice as long as Suez and further away from western European ports so there's zero reasonanyone would believe it would be profitable. Also this theory seems to ignore the fact Israel-Egyptian government relations are relatively functional even now as the occasional Israeli missile lands in Sinai, and have been for decades.

The Ben Gurion Canal would be deeper and wider than the Suez. Currently ships can only travel one way on the Suez because it's so narrow. Ships travel north for half the day and south for the other half. And as we say in 2019, a ship getting stuck there cause huge economic consquences. The Ben Gurion Canal would allow ships to travel both ways all day long and it would be deeper allowing for larger ships.

There are 8 billion people in the world. Even a million dead would be reason enough to for the rest of the world to benefit. Not even the rest of the world, but Global powers. America would easily sacrifice 100k people, not directly, but indirectly if it meant it could continue to succeed as an economic global power. We are raised with the idea of the sanctity of life, that there is no price you can put on someone's life. But this just isn't true. It's what you say to keep the average person from attacking and killing each other.

by Anonymousreply 20November 14, 2023 9:46 PM

Asking for a ceasefire I’d not being a Hamas sympathizer.

by Anonymousreply 21November 14, 2023 10:03 PM

Zionism is like White Supremacy. I don’t support Israel, Biden, Trump, or Hamas.

by Anonymousreply 22November 14, 2023 10:06 PM

Profound R22, profound. Such a deep thinker.

by Anonymousreply 23November 14, 2023 10:20 PM

Arabs started African slavery nearly 700 years before Europeans. Apparently, Arab colonialism has a statute of limitation and is now completely forgotten.

by Anonymousreply 24November 14, 2023 10:57 PM

[quote] Oh it’s just like those sneaky Jews! Amiright [R8]?

The antisemites like that one can’t help but give themselves away every time.

by Anonymousreply 25November 14, 2023 11:05 PM

Yes it is R21. According to your time schedule, when can Isreal commence to shooting again? You think Hamas is going to stand still during a ceasefire, and be waiting for Israelis to find them after every last citizen has been ferried off to safety? So basically what you are saying is that Israel should stop trying to uproot Hamas. If that is what you are saying then that is a Hamas sympathizer.

I hate when people just say stuff, but don't think it through. What exactly should Israel do?

by Anonymousreply 26November 14, 2023 11:39 PM

Love how the pentagon has now confirmed Hamas operated from underneath a children’s hospital but none of these protestors give a fuck.

An Islamic terrorist group setting up shop under a hospital and the mob cannot even acknowledge how fucked up that is.

by Anonymousreply 27November 14, 2023 11:46 PM

The BEST response to calls for a ceasefire I've heard was "There was a ceasefire on Oct 6th."

This is why elections are so important...Civics 101. When you elect a body to represent you to the world, you have to take the lumps of their actions. Palestinians elected Hamas in 2015. And since then, if there was a voice against Hamas coming for Palestinians ALL AROUND THE WORLD, and not just in Palestine, it wasn't very vocal. Which leads me to believe Palestinians were pretty OK with their leadership and what they were trying to achieve. And their leadership declared war against Israel. This is a war their leaders wanted. It's a war their leaders will continue to pursue even if Israel were to ceasefire. Hamas would continue to attack Israel. So why in the hell would Israel ceasefire?

by Anonymousreply 28November 14, 2023 11:54 PM

^2005, sorry.

by Anonymousreply 29November 14, 2023 11:55 PM

R26 I’ve thought it through. I think it’s barbaric to kill 11,000 people hoping to get a handful of Hamas . It’s just as barbaric as Hamas killing over 1,000 Israelis. How is that going to get the Israeli hostages back? What should Israel do? Stop carpet bombing Gaza with my tax dollars. Take that money and use better technology to find the motherfuckers who killed the Israelis on 10/7.

by Anonymousreply 30November 15, 2023 12:51 AM

You should be a General R30.

“My tax dollars…” - he types out with fingers dredged in Boy Butter and Cheeto dust from his moms basement.

A handful of Hamas. So you think they’re like 12 of them running around in 300 miles of tunnels?

by Anonymousreply 31November 15, 2023 1:13 AM

I may have Cheetos on my hands, but I know what’s on yours.

by Anonymousreply 32November 15, 2023 1:15 AM

What would be a fair number to kill r30, since you HAVE thought this through?

by Anonymousreply 33November 15, 2023 1:16 AM

So much virtue signaling from #freepalestine typing away on their iPhones that were made with minerals obtained through rape and child labor in the Congo.

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by Anonymousreply 34November 15, 2023 1:27 AM

Everyone, let’s please welcome R30 to his first human war. He had the pleasure of being introduced to the concept when Hamas declared war on Israel a little over a month ago. He’s a bit new to it all and is confused how it works. He’s just now coming to the realization that people die. And he’s struggling with the idea that they don’t end because HE finds them unfair.

There are wars going on all over the world at the moment, with hundreds of thousands if not millions of people being displaced and killed. But this one in particular has really shaken him to his core (even though he’s neither Jewish or Palestinian) because it’s all over his instagram feed. Please be understanding as he gains his footing.

by Anonymousreply 35November 15, 2023 1:32 AM

^the absolute most blatant example of whataboutism I’ve ever seen in my life, regardless of which side you’re on.

Honestly, the arguments of this sort are so off topic as to render the commenter and their arguments moot.

by Anonymousreply 36November 15, 2023 1:33 AM

R34, not R35

by Anonymousreply 37November 15, 2023 1:34 AM

Take a look at some of the responses here. People are accusing the twitterer of posting photos of dead Hamas fighters and pretending they're Israelis. One response claims Israel fired on the concertgoers from Apache helicopters. All this crap is despite the Hamas terrorists themselves posting videos of what they did. The world is fucking insane.

I get people differing in opinions about how Israel should proceed, what is just behavior, what is a war crime. I disagree with people, but I don't think they're crazy because they have a different point of view. But this denial of behavior that the criminals themselves documented and published is just crazy.

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by Anonymousreply 38November 15, 2023 1:35 AM

Yeah, it's a fucked up mentality r38. And the really insane thing is the people posting those responses are probably all thrilled that this attack was done, thinking of it as a great blow for Allah.

And at the exact same time they think it was all an Israeli setup.

Two fucked up ideas, all living together in their fucked up brains. Once you head down the crazy trail, there's no turning back.

by Anonymousreply 39November 15, 2023 1:45 AM

I think the Israelis are showing a lot of grace and patience by not showing those photos and horrific videos of torture and mutilation. It would stop in the tracks all those comments that start with “Yeah what Hamas did was terrible but…”.

The stories coming out and the pictures are equivalent if not surpassing the horrors of concentration camps. What world are we living in where Jews are getting tortured in this way again - the only difference is that the pictures are in color - and we have people defending the rights of the aggressors and calling for ceasefires?

by Anonymousreply 40November 15, 2023 1:48 AM

R40 the protestors would claim the photos were doctored or fake. That’s the point we are at. Israel could release it all to the press and people would just claim it was Zionist propaganda.

QAnon level delusion.

by Anonymousreply 41November 15, 2023 3:09 AM

There’s no amount of horrors and suffering you could show in the videos that would convince some people that innocent people deserve to killed as revenge

by Anonymousreply 42November 15, 2023 4:59 AM

“5: And for those wondering why police aren’t releasing graphic video and photo documentation to the entire world; out of respect for the victims.”

lol, naïveté to the extreme.

If “respect for the victims” were the real impetus, they wouldn’t be holding these snuff video exhibitions.

by Anonymousreply 43November 15, 2023 5:04 AM

Why do posts like R24 remind me of the Russian troll malcontents sowing discord in the lead up to 2016?

by Anonymousreply 44November 15, 2023 5:07 AM

R40, some people—a lot of people, actually—are sadists. As someone once said about Holocaust deniers, of course they know that the Holocaust really happened, they just think that tormenting people is hilarious. They’re going back to the same well with this stuff..

And, as R44 points out, there’s a lot telling going on. Russia wants to profit from social divisions.

by Anonymousreply 45November 15, 2023 5:11 AM

R41, and you’re a complete tool to take anything at face value released by the IDF in the middle of their war. The IDF, the bastion of ethical behavior and honest reporting, of course. 🙄 the Israeli government itself is a world leader in spying, espionage and all sorts of related deceit and shenanigans. Probably even better than the Russians.

Let us guess, you uncritically believed the same shit about Saddam’s non-existent WMDs in the early 2000s?

by Anonymousreply 46November 15, 2023 5:13 AM

Oh stfu r35. Even if the poster you were responding to were Pali or Jewish you wouldn’t give two fucks — esp if the former. (Cue dumb clichéd comment from typical dumb white WeHo gay to Palestinian in the diaspora: “wELL aT LeASt YoUr NoT BeING pUsHeD oFf a RoOfToP”).

by Anonymousreply 47November 15, 2023 5:18 AM

What I'm most frustrated with is all the posts that insist Israel ("Ziiiionists") are KNOWN liars so that is why their evidence cannot be rationally believed—literally going so far as to say that this is what Israel is MOST known for since its very inception. And this isn't just coming from Jihadists/Neo-Nazis, but the Progressives. They say it like it's common knowledge (Israel being a propaganda machine). But I've yet to see them share one shred of sound evidence supporting this assertion—like, "here's this time that Israel told the world this, and everyone believed and rooted for them wholeheartedly, until it was widely proven that what they told us was a lie. Here's this time that the Jews were near-universally trusted and supported and then they made suckers out of all of us!" They just say it like it's as natural a thing to know and believe as gravity.

by Anonymousreply 48November 15, 2023 5:33 AM

Just acknowledging that I read your comment, R18. I'm sure others did too. It feels trite to thank you for posting, but I will say I think it's important you shared.

by Anonymousreply 49November 15, 2023 6:02 AM

R48, oh just a few examples.

- Lavon affair - USS liberty - Selling of US secrets and Tech to your enemies. - King David hotel bombing - Illegally destroying Palestinian homes and illegally building Jewish settlements while claiming they want peace. - Spying on the US and blackmailing them - Saying Iran is "6months away' from developing nuclear bombs and ballistic missiles that can reach Europe and US since circa 1993

by Anonymousreply 50November 15, 2023 6:10 AM

Israel was founded on lies. The lie that Palestinian land was largely unoccupied. The lie that 750,000 Palestinians fled their homes and villages during their ethnic cleansing by Zionist militias in 1948 because they were told to do so by Arab leaders. The lie that it was Arab armies that started the 1948 war that saw Israel seize 78 percent of historic Palestine. The lie that Israel faced annihilation in 1967, forcing it to invade and occupy the remaining 22 percent of Palestine, as well as land belonging to Egypt and Syria.

Israel is sustained by lies. The lie that Israel wants a just and equitable peace and will support a Palestinian state. The lie that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. The lie that Israel is an “outpost of Western civilization in a sea of barbarism.” The lie that Israel respects the rule of law and human rights.

Israel’s atrocities against the Palestinians are always greeted with lies. I heard them. I recorded them. I published them in my stories for The New York Times when I was the paper’s Middle East Bureau Chief.

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by Anonymousreply 51November 15, 2023 6:18 AM

“George Orwell in his novel “Nineteen Eighty-Four” called the Big Lie “doublethink”. Doublethink uses “logic against logic” and “repudiate[s] morality while laying claim to it.” The Big Lie abolishes nuances, ambiguities and contradictions that can plague conscience. It is designed to create cognitive dissonance. It permits no gray zones. The world is black and white, good and evil, righteous and unrighteous. The Big Lie allows believers to take comfort — a comfort they are desperately seeking — in their own moral superiority even as they abrogate all morality. It feeds, what Edward Bernays called, the “logic-proof compartment of dogmatic adherence.” All effective propaganda, Bernays writes, targets and builds upon these irrational “psychological habits.”

Israeli supporters thirst for these lies. They do not want to know the truth. The truth would force them to examine their racism, self-delusion and complicity in oppression, murder and genocide.

Most importantly, the Big Lie sends an ominous message to the Palestinians. The Big Lie states that Israel will wage a campaign of mass terror and genocide and never take responsibility for its crimes. The Big Lie obliterates the truth. It obliterates the dignity of human thought and human action. It obliterates facts. It obliterates history. It obliterates comprehension. It obliterates hope. It reduces all communication to the language of violence. When oppressors speak to the oppressed exclusively through indiscriminate violence, the oppressed answer through indiscriminate violence.

The cartoonist Joe Sacco and I watched Israeli soldiers taunt and shoot small boys in the Khan Younis refugee camp in Gaza. We interviewed the boys and their parents afterwards in the hospital. In a few cases we attended their funerals. We had their names. We had the dates and locations of the shootings.

Israel’s response was to say that we were not in Gaza. We had made it up.

The Israeli Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, Defense Minister and Israeli Defense Force (IDF) spokesperson immediately blamed the killing of the Al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh in 2022, on Palestinian gunmen. Israel disseminated footage of a Palestinian fighter they said shot and killed the journalist, who was wearing a flak jacket and helmet marked “PRESS.”

Benny Gantz, who was at the time Defense Minister, stated that “no [Israeli] gunfire was directed at the journalist,” and that the Israeli army had “seen footage of indiscriminate shooting by Palestinian terrorists”.

This lie was peddled until video footage examined by B’Tselem, The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, identified the location of the Palestinian gunman depicted in the video. The video, the human rights organization found, was taken in a different location from where Shireen was killed.

When Israel is caught lying, as it was with the murder of Shireen, it promises an investigation. But these investigations are a sham. Impartial investigations into the hundreds of killings by soldiers and Jewish settlers of Palestinians are rarely carried out. Perpetrators are almost never brought to trial or held accountable. The pattern of Israeli obfuscation is predictable. So is the collusion of nearly all of the corporate media along with Republican and Democratic politicians. U.S. politicians decried the murder of Shireen and dutifully repeated the old mantra, calling for a “thorough investigation” by the army that carried out the crime.

A few months later, Israel admitted that there was a “high possibility” that an Israeli soldier killed the journalist by accident, but by then the eruption of street protests and rage over the killing of the journalist was over and her murder largely forgotten. “

by Anonymousreply 52November 15, 2023 6:23 AM

“There is dramatic footage captured in September 2000 at the Netzarim junction in the Gaza Strip — where I saw a nineteen-year-old boy shot and killed by an Israeli sniper — by France 2 TV, of a father trying to shield his traumatized 12-year-old son, Muhammad al-Durrah, from Israeli gunfire that ultimately killed him.

The killing of the boy resulted in the typical propaganda campaign by Israel. Israeli officials spent years lying about the killing, first blaming the Palestinians for the shooting, later suggesting that the scene was faked, and finally insisting the boy was still alive.

When an Israeli soldier, in 2003, murdered the 23-year-old student and American activist Rachel Corrie, by crushing her to death with a bulldozer as she tried to prevent the illegal demolition of a Palestinian doctor’s home, the Israeli army said it was an accident for which Corrie was responsible.

The Israeli military has killed “at least” 20 journalists since 2001, with no accountability, according to a 2023 report by the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists. “Immediately after a journalist is killed by security forces, Israeli officials often push out a counter narrative to media reporting,” the CPJ concluded. This includes blaming the deaths on “indiscriminate fire” by Palestinians or attempts to discredit those killed as “terrorists.”

Israel blocks the work of independent human rights organizations into atrocities and war crimes it commits in Gaza and the West Bank. It refuses to cooperate with the International Criminal Court into possible war crimes in the Occupied Territories. It does not cooperate with the U.N. Human Rights Council and prohibits the U.N. Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, from entering the country. Israel revoked the work permit for Omar Shakir, the Director of Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine), in 2018 and expelled him. In May 2018, Israeli Ministry of Strategic Affairs and Public Diplomacy published a report calling on the European Union and European states to halt their direct and indirect financial support and funding to Palestinian and international human rights organizations that “have ties to terror and promote boycotts against Israel.”

After the bombing of the hospital, Israel first released a video that purported to show Palestinian Islamic Jihad rockets which struck the hospital. The Israelis hastily removed the video when journalists noticed that time stamps showed the images were taken 40 minutes after the strike on the hospital.

Israeli propagandists — aware that Palestinian rockets have little explosive power — then claimed that Hamas stored munitions under the hospital. This caused the massive explosion, they said. But if this was true, it would mean there would be a secondary explosion. There was none. And now Israel has released what they say is a recording of two Hamas militants discussing the missile strike on the hospital. The militants ask each other, in a self-incriminating conversation that is too ridiculous to believe, if Hamas or PIJ carried out the strike. Please. How was Israel completely in the dark about an incursion by thousands of armed Palestinian militants from Gaza into Israel on Oct. 7 and able to capture this incriminating conversation by two supposed militants?

“Israel has a whole unit of ‘mistaravim’, Israeli Jewish undercover agents trained to pose as Palestinians and secretly operate among Palestinians,” the reporter Jonathan Cook writes. “Israel produced a highly popular TV series about such people in Gaza called Fauda. You have to be beyond credulous to think that Israel couldn’t, and wouldn’t, rig up a call like this to fool us, just as it regularly fools Palestinians in Gaza.”

by Anonymousreply 53November 15, 2023 6:25 AM

Oh dear. Chris Hedges is a nut job. He hates America. I remember having dinner with him once and he went on and on about how he would never marry an American (while surrounded by American), but had chosen a Chinese wife instead. She was superior, he said. And by extension he thought of himself as superior too.

by Anonymousreply 54November 15, 2023 6:25 AM

“Israel has also long targeted medical facilities, ambulances and medics, as Middle East scholar Norman Finkelstein points out. It bombed a Palestinian children’s hospital during the 1982 war in Lebanon, killing 60 people. It also carried out missile strikes on clearly marked Lebanese ambulances during the 2006 war between Israel and Lebanon. It damaged or destroyed 29 ambulances and almost half of Gaza’s health facilities, including 15 hospitals, during the 2008-2009 assault on Gaza known as Operation Cast Lead. It routinely prohibited wounded Palestinians from being picked up by ambulances during this operation, often leaving them to die. During Operation Protective Edge, the 51-day assault on Gaza in 2014, Israel destroyed or damaged 17 hospitals and 56 primary healthcare centers and damaged or destroyed 45 ambulances.”

by Anonymousreply 55November 15, 2023 6:25 AM

The title of this thread wins irony of the year award.

Mental Matt says “the Zionists are winning the war” but there’s no war here. It’s ethnic cleansing.

by Anonymousreply 56November 15, 2023 6:26 AM

Genuinely unsure if the extreme anti Israel poster is a Nazi or a progressive

by Anonymousreply 57November 15, 2023 6:59 AM

In the UK a man has been arrested for sending these messages to a Jew on Instagram from an account that had his name and photos of him in footballer supporter kit.

"Hope Hamas run a train through your daughters ya cunt"

"Best jew is a dead one"

"Bring back the chambers"

"Shall I leave the gas on ready for when your boys come"

by Anonymousreply 58November 15, 2023 7:57 AM

One of the student poster rippers has issued a statement.

She wasn't laughing because she was enjoying seeing someone's hurt, she was laughing because she was uncomfortable being filmed, and she ripped them down as the posters might have upset people and she was creating a safer space.

What a crock of shit.

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by Anonymousreply 59November 15, 2023 8:21 AM

This was just yesterday R48.

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by Anonymousreply 60November 15, 2023 9:03 AM

Chris Hedges is a nut job, but his Chinese wife is a fierce NY actor (Eunice Wong).

by Anonymousreply 61November 15, 2023 12:51 PM

Well the only obvious thing after all of these years is that this is a war that BOTH governments wanted, a final show down. Who are we to stand in their way? You are just wasting your breath if you are. I am sure you have a life to live. Turn off notifications and check in at the end of the month.

by Anonymousreply 62November 15, 2023 12:55 PM

R60 Is this person a representative of the government or IDF spokesperson?

by Anonymousreply 63November 15, 2023 4:43 PM

R60 There's literally NOTHING in that image that indicates it was posted from any "official government account". In fact it doesn't show any account name at all.

by Anonymousreply 64November 15, 2023 4:47 PM

The woman who shouted "Death to all Jews" in Victoria Station in London has been arrested.


by Anonymousreply 65November 15, 2023 4:57 PM

R64 mmmm yes it does it was posted from @israelarabic and their byline is “welcome to official Arabic twitter account of the state of Israel”.

by Anonymousreply 66November 15, 2023 7:00 PM

Israel doesn’t seem to care about all the victims of Oct7th 🤔 how empathetic of them.

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by Anonymousreply 67November 15, 2023 7:01 PM

Who is going on about oil rights off the Gaza coast? Those reserves aren't owned by Gaza, they're already owned/controlled by Israel since Gaza isn't its own state. Israel doesn't need to invade north Gaza to control any offshore oil/gas reserves, they already could do what they wanted with them.

Same with a tunnel/canal - Israel has miles of coastline and doesn't need Gaza to build this. However were they to chose Gaza land to start this kind of major infrastructural work, it would be a boon to the area in terms of badly needed jobs and economic value, at least pre-Oct 7th.

by Anonymousreply 68November 15, 2023 7:36 PM

Logic and the conspiracy mindset rarely overlap, R68.

by Anonymousreply 69November 15, 2023 8:35 PM

[quote]official Arabic twitter account of the state of Israel

That is not a thing. The state of Israel does not have an "official arabic twitter account". This is the account of an individual Arab Israeli, who most likely deleted the video when it was pointed out to them that it was a political satire video. The only official twitter accounts representing the state are from the PM, the IDF, the Ministry of Defense, the Foreign Minister, and the Israeli Police.

by Anonymousreply 70November 15, 2023 10:03 PM

R42, you should have told that to the hamas islamic terrorists on October 6th. The pogrom was planned for 2 years and they knew damn well what the Israeli response would and should be.

Islam and arab culture only understand violence. If you don't hit back and hit harder, they see weakness and smell blood. All the blood since October 7th is on the hands of the islamic terrorists.

by Anonymousreply 71November 15, 2023 10:40 PM

R30, "carpet bombing"? Do you still think we are talking about Vietnam? In fact, the Israelis do the opposite of carpet bombing when that is what they should be doing. Fuck islam. Fuck hamas and fuck gazans.

by Anonymousreply 72November 15, 2023 10:43 PM

[quote] that it was a political satire video.

Which part is satirical R70? Misinformation and lies aren’t satire.

by Anonymousreply 73November 15, 2023 10:54 PM

Because what she was saying in the video is the truth. Hamas HAS seized control of the hospitals and DOES steal their resources. They're literally headquartered in the base of one. And where do you suppose they get all the medical supplies they need for their 20-40,000 militants and hostages? Think they're ordering them off Amazon?

by Anonymousreply 74November 15, 2023 11:12 PM

It's a satire of all the bullshit "Gaza Health Ministry" sponsored videos blaming Israel for their lack of resources, instead of their own government.

by Anonymousreply 75November 15, 2023 11:13 PM

R75 no it’s not. I’ve seen this line of response to all of these israeli lies that they’re just ‘innocent satire’ a few times now it’s not passing the smell test sorry :)

by Anonymousreply 76November 16, 2023 2:14 AM

R76 So that's your source of "sound evidence" that the state of Israel is a consummate liar? An Arabic video created by a non-government official, re-posted and quickly deleted on an Arab Israeli's non-government twitter channel?

by Anonymousreply 77November 16, 2023 2:21 AM

And now Tiktok is pushing OSAMA BIN MOTHERFUCKING LADEN on impressionable children who think he's got some interesting ideas.

I hate this fucking timeline.

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by Anonymousreply 78November 16, 2023 2:41 AM
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by Anonymousreply 79November 16, 2023 3:24 AM

Very peaceful people!

by Anonymousreply 80November 16, 2023 3:50 AM

The IDF deleting a propaganda video to fix some ‘mistakes’ they left in 😭😭

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by Anonymousreply 81November 16, 2023 3:54 AM

R81 mural is deleting any non-pro-Palestine stuff here

by Anonymousreply 82November 16, 2023 8:53 AM

Right wing psyOp to make the extremist left further divide the Democratic Party going into an election year

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by Anonymousreply 83November 16, 2023 8:54 AM

I take that canal theory above with a huge grain of salt. After all, the Gulf of Aqaba is very narrow and the vast majority of it has Egypt on one side and Saudi Arabia on the other. Should either of those countries decide to intervene in shipping, it would be a simple matter for them to put out patrol boats. It certainly would not be in Egypt's self-interest to allow shipping to go through Aqaba with no interference. I would think that Israel would need to guarantee a certain piece of the canal fees to Egypt (and possibly Saudi Arabia), before those countries would allow boats to go through unmolested. If it is seen as a Jewish vs. Arab deal, then the entire Red Sea would be a dangerous shipping zone for cargo and passengers. There is already a history of pirating up and down that area, mostly from Somalis, who are mostly Arab people.

As far as I can tell, neither Israel or Palestine has a monopoly on stretching the truth when it suits the narratives they are trying to convey to the outside world. That's what makes the whole situation so tragic. Israel needs to own up to ousting Palestinians from their lands and homes at the founding of the nation, and to allow Palestinians free passage in the West Bank and the cessation of Jewish settlements there, while Palestinians can no longer keep promising to sweep all the Jews into the sea (from the River to the Sea), because that mentality scares the Jews and makes them more likely to retaliate for every incursion into Israel.

by Anonymousreply 84November 16, 2023 9:12 AM

[quote]and to allow Palestinians free passage in the West Bank

You'll have to convince the Israelis the Palestinians won't start blowing up buses again. Since current protests tend to exalt intifada, that will be a hard sell.

[quote] the cessation of Jewish settlements there,

No new settlements should be built. Any post Oslo Israeli settlement should be dismantled.

But Palestinian intransigence regarding negotiations must be addressed. Even before new settlements were built, Palestinian leaders refused to negotiate. And then they were outraged if Israelis built homes within existing settlements. Israel cannot stand still while Abbas et al. act like mules. If they will not negotiate, then Israelis must be able to build within existing settlements. And Palestinian leaders can either negotiate or STFU.

and the cessation of Jewish settlements there,

by Anonymousreply 85November 16, 2023 9:36 AM

You also have to understand that some of the holiest sites in the world for Jews are located in the West Bank, including the Western Wall. Palestinians will not (and have not historically) allowed Jews to enter freely onto those sites before it was occupied. They've turned ancient synagogues to rubble and blocked access to those that remained standing with armed militants. Sorry, but the Jews are never going to completely dismantle their presence in, at the very least, Jerusalem and Hebron. Every time they've been left to Muslim rule, Jewish holy sites have been desecrated.

by Anonymousreply 86November 16, 2023 10:02 AM

I don't understand all the hubbub at R79. Let them stand there. Who gives a fuck? They want drama, relevance and meaning in their lives, don't give it to them. Most are democrats, let them block the DNC or do whatever the fuck they want to the DNC headquarters. It is their party, afterall.

by Anonymousreply 87November 16, 2023 12:52 PM

[quote]I don't understand all the hubbub at [R79]. Let them stand there. Who gives a fuck?

The people who are trying to get in and out of the building, I presume.

by Anonymousreply 88November 16, 2023 1:48 PM


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by Anonymousreply 89November 16, 2023 1:51 PM

Crazy pro Israel protestors wish rape and death in person protesting for peace.

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by Anonymousreply 90November 16, 2023 1:57 PM

That's the only door, R89? It's all theater. They don't really give a fuck about anyone but their own ego needs.

by Anonymousreply 91November 16, 2023 2:24 PM

R81, the IDF’s big reveal of “Hamas HQ” at the hospital doesn’t seem to have panned out. So far, they’ve recovered what appears to be a bunch of guns, a laptop, a pair of boots, two containers of plastic bags, and about $70 in dollar bills. As someone on another forum pointed out, this area could be where injured Hamas fighters dumped their stuff before heading to the the ER.

by Anonymousreply 92November 16, 2023 4:11 PM

R92 yea and fewer guns than your average republican family in the US has 😭😭😭

by Anonymousreply 93November 16, 2023 4:31 PM

That naive, self-righteous ugly woman at R90 really did need a huge dose of reality. If she really believes the occupied land shtick, she'd leave the US. Of course, she will not because it really is all about Jew hatred.

by Anonymousreply 94November 16, 2023 5:07 PM

Including their rockets, R92.

The hamas islamic terrorists are responsible for all this bloodshed. Islam itself is responsible for all this bloodshed. It is an ideology of hate and conquest, diabolical in many ways. Just about every islamic country is completely fucked up.

by Anonymousreply 95November 16, 2023 5:10 PM

R94 she’s Jewish you absolute dickhead 😂😂😂 wow you gals are dumber than I thought.

by Anonymousreply 96November 16, 2023 5:19 PM

LOL Medea (Susan) Benjamin is one of the most famous (infamous) left wing cranks going. She's a Hamas apologist, a peace activist who doesn't support Ukraine defending themselves.

[quote]Ms. Benjamin, who was dragged out of a Senate hearing in March after she shouted “Be a diplomat — not a war hawk!” during testimony by Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken, said she firmly opposes Russia’s invasion of Ukraine but doubts that a prolonged fight can restore Ukraine’s borders. “So we’re going to let this war keep going, let more Ukrainians die, more chances of a wider war in Europe and more chance of a nuclear war, just so it’s back to where we were a month after the Russian invasion?” she asked.

I don't condone what the women said to her but she is indifferent at best to the suffering of Israelis.

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by Anonymousreply 97November 16, 2023 6:06 PM

R96 I read somewhere that some of the members of Jewish Voice for Peace aren't even Jewish. It's not a criteria for joining. i don't know about this woman in the video but I don't put it past anyone at this point.

by Anonymousreply 98November 16, 2023 6:07 PM

R98 the woman in the video is far left crank Medea Benjamin as above.

And yes, a lot of Jewish "peace" activists cosplay as Jews.

by Anonymousreply 99November 16, 2023 6:09 PM

R99 so she is Jewish.

[quote] And yes, a lot of Jewish "peace" activists cosplay as Jews.

Source? Or is it just a ‘trust me bro’ situation?

by Anonymousreply 100November 16, 2023 6:21 PM

R96, self hatred is absolutely a thing. Let her take her ass back to Poland. She was probably a kapo in the Warsaw ghetto in a previous life.

by Anonymousreply 101November 16, 2023 6:44 PM

The body of hostage Yehudit Weiss has been recovered. She was undergoing treatment for breast cancer when kidnapped.

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by Anonymousreply 102November 16, 2023 6:50 PM

More bad news for the Palestinians - Charlotte Church is going to sing for them twice a week.

by Anonymousreply 103November 16, 2023 10:25 PM

R100 They literally say it on their website, in their charter, on their social media—that you don't have to be a Jew to join Jewish Voice for Peace, just believe in their message. The idea that there are non-Jews in JVP has never been a contested issue. What has been debated is whether the MAJORITY of JVP membership and even leadership is comprised of non-Jews. I am part of the camp that believes it is. They are on their way to being considered a far-left terrorist organization and are slowly beginning to be banned from universities like Students for Justice in Palestine.

by Anonymousreply 104November 16, 2023 11:18 PM

More craziness. Why claim the Israelis kidnapped those people when Hamas terrorists published videos of themselves kidnaping young women and grandmothers?

If anyone cares: Tearing down those posters does not incline me toward supporting a ceasefire. I suspect Hamas has supporters pushing the idea that they didn't really kidnap those children, it's just an Israeli psyop. At any rate, if Hamas and their supporters will not accept responsibility for what Hamas proudly did on October 7th, then it really must be eradicated.

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by Anonymousreply 105November 16, 2023 11:31 PM

[quote] has been debated is whether the MAJORITY of JVP membership and even leadership is comprised of non-Jews. I am part of the camp that believes it is.

“Trust me bro”

[quote] They literally say it on their website, in their charter, on their social media

If they’re open about it, R104, the non Jewish members are not ‘cosplaying as Jews’. The website states that it’s open to non Jewish members, and that they’re joining a group inspired by Jewish traditions, so nobody is cosplaying at all. You’re just making shit up. This is just like those ally gay groups in high schools, whatever they’re called.

[quote] We are committed to building an inclusive Jewish community, that, like many of our families, welcomes Jews and allies who share our values and appreciate our traditions, who advocate for an end to Israeli human rights abuses, and who oppose anti-Jewish hatred, anti-Arab racism, and Islamophobia.

This is very clearly outlining the terms for non Jewish members.

by Anonymousreply 106November 16, 2023 11:54 PM

[quote]that they’re joining a group inspired by Jewish traditions

They sure are!

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by Anonymousreply 107November 16, 2023 11:58 PM

"The Soviets actually went one better. In 1918, they created an entire branch of their government solely for "cool Jews", whose paid job was to persecute the "uncool" ones. This was called the Yevsektsiya, or the Jewish Sections of the Communist Party, and in their brief and bloody lifespan, one finds the origins of today’s supposedly novel concept: Jews who are of course not anti-Semitic (how could they be? they’re Jews!), but simply anti-Zionist. In the course of not being anti-Semitic and being simply anti-Zionist, the Yevsektsiya managed to persecute, imprison, torture, and murder thousands of Jews, until their leaders were themselves purged."

—Dara Horn, author of 'People Love Dead Jews'

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by Anonymousreply 108November 17, 2023 12:06 AM

[quote]anti-Jewish hatred

Find one time that JVP stood up or denounced that. They got plenty of passion for the Palestinian cause but none for instances of anti-Semitism.

by Anonymousreply 109November 17, 2023 1:08 AM

. . .

According to KAN, it was decided that the interviewee would be Merav Leshem Gonan, mother of Romi.

Shortly after the interview began, Al Jazeera surprised Leshem Gonan by bringing on a Hamas leader, who attacked her and said that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was the one responsible for delaying a hostage deal. The interview lasted only about 40 seconds, and they embarrassed her on air.

Why did Leshem Gonan not leave the interview? Reportedly, she wanted to try to convey her message to the Arab world.

. . .

more at link

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by Anonymousreply 110November 17, 2023 1:52 AM

R109 They have literally never done this once. They say that on their website only so that they can officially claim not to be a hate-group, which is what they are. Notice how they say "anti-Jewish hatred" instead of the perfectly acceptable and well-established term, "antisemitism"? It's because they're one of the "um...but aren't Palestinians semites too?" fuckers, as if any one of them has ever truly been confused about that word's meaning. They are forever appropriating language unique to Jewish persecution and performing Holocaust-inversion precisely because they are gaslighting antisemites. Just waiting for them to start accusing the Israelis of pogroms.

by Anonymousreply 111November 17, 2023 4:08 AM

[quote]...while Palestinians can no longer keep promising to sweep all the Jews into the sea (from the River to the Sea), because that mentality scares the Jews and makes them more likely to retaliate for every incursion into Israel.

...and no longer cut Jewish heads off or rape Jewish kids. Or put their babies in ovens. Don't forget that part.

Of course, after Hamas is ERADICATED and the Gazans liberated from their clutches, there's the looming problem of Netanyahu and his minions. Israelis will have to do their part as well. But - not until the insanity of Hamas is eliminated.

by Anonymousreply 112November 17, 2023 4:19 AM

R112 Israelis are counting down the days until they can get him the fuck out of office, and I think Netanyahu has accepted this. They had already been itching to for some time. The only thing they are in agreement with him is the unfortunate necessity of this war. They know their lives depend on it.

by Anonymousreply 113November 17, 2023 4:32 AM

When it comes to news, Jewish Israelis trust R-Adm. Daniel Hagari, the IDF spokesman, more than they trust their Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, by a margin of about 70%, according to a new poll conducted by Dr. Gal Yaabetz, of Bar-Ilan University. The poll surveyed a representative sample of 505 Jewish Israelis.

Asked whom they trust most to deliver the news, less than 4% chose the prime minister, compared to 73.7% who chose Hagari. The low number is only slightly higher when selecting specifically for right-wing voters: Of them, only 6.6% chose Netanyahu. This disparity is consistent with other public opinion research conducted since October 7. A poll conducted within one week of the war found that only 29% of Israelis thought Netanyahu was qualified to be prime minister, but 71% trusted the IDF to succeed in the war.

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by Anonymousreply 114November 17, 2023 4:47 AM

[quote]A social media account posted the following headline: “Globalize the Intifada: Zone of Operations.”

[quote]It features a NYC map of largely Jewish organizations to target. It describes Jewish orgs as “the enemy of colonized people.” It calls October 7th “a new chapter of struggle.”

[quote]Coded calls for violence against Jews are proliferating on social media.

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by Anonymousreply 115November 17, 2023 4:52 AM

^ Well that's fucking terrifying.

by Anonymousreply 116November 17, 2023 4:54 AM

“A social media account”

Which social media account? It’s not linked, there’s no source, no evidence that this came from….anywhere?

by Anonymousreply 117November 17, 2023 5:05 AM

Biden thinks the 2-state thang is the way to go. Bibi does not. How is Israel going to absorb a devastated nation of millions who despise them?

by Anonymousreply 118November 17, 2023 5:13 AM

“Being a public defender should inherently mean you’re against f—ing genocide,” lawyer Niteka Raina wrote in a ranting email to coworkers obtained by The Post.

“But I guess legal aid is so desperate for attorneys the organization just lets anyone stay these days, oof.

“Ya dumbf—k genocide supporters,” Raina continued. “The united states and israel are both settler-colonial entities and both shouldn’t f—ing exist, ya dips—ts.””

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by Anonymousreply 119November 17, 2023 5:15 AM

As heard on the BBC last night, it’s common to find army grade weapons in a hospital in the middle easy.

Who needs Hamas media people when you have their main journalists spinning for them.

by Anonymousreply 120November 17, 2023 7:21 AM

I keep hearing the Mon Calamari say: "It's a trap!"

by Anonymousreply 121November 17, 2023 9:33 AM

R120, those guns looked pretty old, not “army grade.” If you were looking at this from a U.S. perspective, many citizens here own much more impressive collections..

by Anonymousreply 122November 17, 2023 10:28 AM

As the link at R115 shows, the problem is not hamas, the problem is islam itself. Luckily the muslim population in the US is relatively small, however, they now have indoctrinated lefties and antifa willing to carry out violence in the name of allah. Europe, on the other hand, is completely fucked. Sweden is a completely lost cause. Idiots.

by Anonymousreply 123November 17, 2023 10:36 AM

BBC exposes IDF’s lies about the Al Shifa hospital.

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by Anonymousreply 124November 17, 2023 3:08 PM

I've been on threads for the past month and the tidal wave of crunchy granola jihadists has drive me a bit bonkers. Steadfastly refusing to engage their horseshit and mass blocking, but it's made for a distinctly unpleasant browsing experience. (I never post to social media, use it more as a news aggregator with journalists I like.)

I could just flip my view over to people I follow exclusively but that's a pain.

Then I stumbled into the secret - blocking code words. Upon blocking the words "colonizer", "colonialism", "apartheid" and "genocide" in my user settings the jihadi idiots have 99% vanished from my feed.

Every single one of them drops multiple buzzwords in their posts, which you can use to your advantage.

by Anonymousreply 125November 17, 2023 3:33 PM

R125 welcome to internet 101 babes. While you’re at it you should check out google maps, and google image search! And there’s this incredible thing called email which is like the post but electronic.

You’ll be shielded from images of dead Palestinian children on those too so don’t stress x

by Anonymousreply 126November 17, 2023 3:45 PM

Israel acknowledges that the “bodies burned alive” on Oct. 7th were actually Hamas fighters and not Israelis 🙄

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by Anonymousreply 127November 17, 2023 4:31 PM

R127 posting a crank account who justified and celebrated the murders on October 7th,

Just block.

by Anonymousreply 128November 17, 2023 6:53 PM

R128 girl it’s the content not the poster that’s important 😭

by Anonymousreply 129November 17, 2023 6:54 PM

Another hostage video confirming Hamas executed them.

by Anonymousreply 130November 17, 2023 6:58 PM

Executed “them”? Which “them”?

by Anonymousreply 131November 17, 2023 7:21 PM

Aryeh Zalmanovich, 87.

Hamas filmed him as he was dying.

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by Anonymousreply 132November 17, 2023 7:34 PM

R132 hrmmmm “filmed him as he was dying” is different to “executed him”.

by Anonymousreply 133November 17, 2023 7:48 PM

River to the sea nonsense outside my office again.

by Anonymousreply 134November 17, 2023 8:01 PM

College students get paid $250 to protest for Israel

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by Anonymousreply 135November 17, 2023 8:05 PM

R115, Richie Torres LOL what an AIPAC sellout of a fruitcake. Nearly $150K in his coffers already from the pro-Israeli lobby.

I was never the biggest fan of hers, but I knew something was up the second he jumped onboard the anti-AOC/squad train post Oct. 7.

Typical sellout.

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by Anonymousreply 136November 17, 2023 8:15 PM

^ selling himself out for that Israeli D and $!

by Anonymousreply 137November 17, 2023 8:16 PM

[quote][R132] hrmmmm “filmed him as he was dying” is different to “executed him”.

Dummy quote of the week.

Yes R132 they filmed him as his high cholesterol and clogged arteries finally got the best of him.

by Anonymousreply 138November 17, 2023 8:23 PM

[quote][R132] hrmmmm “filmed him as he was dying” is different to “executed him”.

Well how do you think he died Rose? The act of taking someone's life is generally known as "execution".

by Anonymousreply 139November 17, 2023 8:35 PM

To all my Pro-Israel DLers out there, save your breath when it comes to Isreal because:

At this point Israel doesn't give a fuck about what the world thinks about what they are doing. They are going to do what they need to do. And America will never turn it's back on Isreal. The most resistance Israel will face from the US Gov is lip service, while they still send them arms to do what they need to do. The US Gov has been studying all of us for years, especially Pro-Palestinians through all their social media posts. The Gov knows what they can get away. They know these people don't vote and are easily swayed by shifts in news cycles. Therefore, they pose no real threat.

Personally, I am not too bothered by the eradication of this particular scourge of Islamic Fundamentalism. There are far worse things happening in the world, as I type, to far better people.

What we have to be vigilant about is the nut jobs attacking Jews an going after Jews in America. Just like the January 6th rioters, they must be held responsible for their actions.

by Anonymousreply 140November 17, 2023 8:39 PM

"Hamas has demanded that Israel stop flying surveillance drones over Gaza as part of its request that Israel pause its military operations in exchange for freeing hostages held by the terrorist group."

Can't imagine why that would be.

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by Anonymousreply 141November 17, 2023 8:53 PM

[quote] Well how do you think he died Rose?

I don’t know how he died. Do you know for certain? I went on telegram and there’s a short video (this is the first time I’ve gone to look at one of these vids btw) of him, maybe 15 seconds long, you see him in a hospital bed connected to a machine, he says something (that I couldn’t understand) and then it cuts to a body bag. There’s nothing on that video that shows him dying, so it’s uncertain. There’s nothing graphic in the video, although he looks extremely unwell, and it is v depressing, but unless there’s a longer video (I didn’t look very hard) there’s no actual footage of his death. Can’t say much more than that. They might have killed him, he also might have died from sickness. Without doubt he’s in a facility that is not as well stocked or staffed as he would be if it was not a hostage / wartime situation.

by Anonymousreply 142November 17, 2023 8:55 PM

R142 typed all that to try to rationalise an 86 year old man dying in captivity, having been kidnapped from his home 6 weeks ago by terrorists who murdered, raped, mutilated, and burned the man's neighbours.

by Anonymousreply 143November 17, 2023 9:04 PM

R143 I’m not rationalizing it. I’m saying that there’s no concrete evidence that he was executed, which is what someone unthread said. Facts still matter. Where did I attempt to rationalize it?

by Anonymousreply 144November 17, 2023 9:07 PM

I mean, he was an 86-year-old HOSTAGE, being held by murderous terrorists who killed half his neighborhood in a blood bath. I think that would be stressful enough to cause a fatal heart attack.

by Anonymousreply 145November 17, 2023 9:07 PM

R142 facts still matter? So you want the autopsy report on an elderly hostage before you can say the terrorists murdered him?

by Anonymousreply 146November 17, 2023 9:34 PM

R146 no, I’m just saying that the person that said “he was executed” upthread as a certainty….said so without certainty. There’s a possibility he was killed, and there’s a possibility he died. Do you have proof?

by Anonymousreply 147November 17, 2023 9:38 PM

The body of hostage Clemens Matanga has been found. 22, a student from Tanzania.

Black lives matter.

by Anonymousreply 148November 17, 2023 9:56 PM

R133, he was an very old, innocent man who witnessed a pogrom, was held hostage for about 40 days and died in probably God-awful conditions among strangers with a pathological hatred towards him. Not bad enough for you for this Jew?

by Anonymousreply 149November 17, 2023 10:19 PM

R149 it’s a dreadful way to die. I did already say this, and I feel like your comment is a repeat (no offense). All I’m saying is that R130’s comment isn’t correct.

by Anonymousreply 150November 17, 2023 10:26 PM

Has anyone done an analysis on where the found hostages have been? I mean do we have a sense of where they are or if they are all together? The hostages sound as though they have been chaotically taken and taken care of. Which does not bode well for their return and certainly not for the return of the children.

by Anonymousreply 151November 18, 2023 3:03 AM

No and that's why they remain an abstraction in pictures of better times on posters. Any found hostages are dead. All we've heard is, maybe in tunnels. Think Hannibal directive and censorship. They need a miracle.

by Anonymousreply 152November 18, 2023 6:42 AM

R151, they found two bodies of hostages near the al-Shifa hospital. The IDF found (alive) a female soldier somewhere in northern Gaza. No other information was given about that. Of the four hostages who were released, one older woman spoke about the conditions in which they were kept. She's the one who spoke about the "spider-web" of tunnels and how the hostages were divided into groups based on their village.

by Anonymousreply 153November 18, 2023 3:32 PM

[quote] CNN analysis: Video suggests IDF might have rearranged weaponry at Al-Shifa prior to news crew visits

[quote] An Israel Defense Forces (IDF) video on November 15 showing a tour of Hamas weaponry found at Al-Shifa hospital shows less weaponry at the scene than in later footage filmed by international news crews, indicating the weaponry may have been moved or placed there prior to news crews arriving.

[quote] CNN compared footage published by the IDF online with footage taken by Fox News, which was granted access to the site in the hours afterwards. IDF spokesperson Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus leads the tour in the IDF video and a watch on his arm shows the time to be 13:18.

[quote] Fox News foreign correspondent Trey Yingst later visits the scene when it is dark. He says in his report it is “the middle of the night.”

[quote] Yingst is shown a bag located behind an MRI machine inside the hospital with two AK-47 guns visible on top of it. However, the IDF video filmed earlier shows only one AK-47 gun. It is unclear where the second AK-47 gun came from and why it is not visible in the earlier IDF clip.

[quote] In the intervening hours, the IDF also posted online a photo of the weaponry purportedly found at Al-Shifa hospital. The WhatsApp file name for this photo indicates it was taken at 17:35; this places it after the IDF tour of the MRI compound but almost certainly before the Fox News crew arrive.

[quote] It is possible the weaponry was removed from the scene and replaced prior to the news crews arriving. However this does not explain why more guns are visible when the press arrive than in the original IDF video.

[quote] The BBC was also granted access to the hospital the following day, November 16, and two AK-47 guns are still visible on top of the bag inside the MRI room.

[quote] CNN has reached out to the IDF for clarification on the apparent discrepancy but has not received a response.

CNN agrees with BBC, for all intents and purposes accused the IDF of staging their ‘haul’ at Al Shifa, the hospital that was bombed bc they said they had proof it was a Hamas command center, which they obviously didn’t. Remember boys and girls bombing a hospital is a war crime.

by Anonymousreply 154November 18, 2023 3:48 PM

[quote][R151], they found two bodies of hostages near the al-Shifa hospital. The IDF found (alive) a female soldier somewhere in northern Gaza. No other information was given about that. Of the four hostages who were released, one older woman spoke about the conditions in which they were kept. She's the one who spoke about the "spider-web" of tunnels and how the hostages were divided into groups based on their village.

A few days ago there were reports of a mass grave being dug at the hospital. And now there are reports of the grave being excavated to retrieve bodies of hostages.

That Hamas have already killed a large number of hostages won't surprise anyone who appreciates the barbaric attacks on October 7th, but when, where and how the hostages were killed will be vital. All of the aid agencies and many news outlets will be desperate for the stories about the Hamas base at the hospital to be untrue, despite countless stories about it being reported over the years, including by Amnesty.

by Anonymousreply 155November 18, 2023 4:17 PM

[quote] A few days ago there were reports of a mass grave being dug at the hospital. And now there are reports of the grave being excavated to retrieve bodies of hostages.

Source, R155?

One thing and I’m open to comments on this, why would you take hostages and then kill them? Surely the whole point of hostages is that you keep them alive as some sort of bargaining piece?

by Anonymousreply 156November 18, 2023 4:26 PM

Yeah, it's speculation r156, but it's possible that they really thought taking a bunch of hostages might prevent Israel from invading, that Israel would actually be so focused on getting the hostages back that they would negotiate rather than invade.

When Israel said, fuck it, we're going to go ahead and kill as many of you cunts as we can even at the risk of losing the hostages, they lost their value.

by Anonymousreply 157November 18, 2023 4:36 PM

R157 so Israel is fine with killing its own citizens that are being held as hostages? And American citizens too? Jesus.

by Anonymousreply 158November 18, 2023 4:55 PM

I think Israel has made the determination to destroy Hamas as completely as possible. With that decision comes a lot of casualties. If there was some hope that Israel would just mosey along with some slow-rolled negotiations and some stale "peace" process, that was a very idiotic hope.

by Anonymousreply 159November 18, 2023 5:05 PM

There was a Hamas quote in the days after Oct. 7 that they thought they could exchange the hostages for all of Gazans in Israeli prisons. This was based on a previous exchange of 1 Israeli soldier for 1000 Hamas. Not coincidentally, the architect of the attack was one of those thousand.

by Anonymousreply 160November 18, 2023 5:05 PM

[quote] With that decision comes a lot of casualties.

Yes it does seem like they’ve killed thousands of children. But you do seem to have justified that to yourself at least.

by Anonymousreply 161November 18, 2023 5:07 PM

[quote] all of Gazans in Israeli prisons.

Yes apparently they have over 10,000 illegally held. Hostages essentially. Funny (peculiar) nobody really talks about them???

by Anonymousreply 162November 18, 2023 5:08 PM

[quote]Yeah, it's speculation [R156], but it's possible that they really thought taking a bunch of hostages might prevent Israel from invading, that Israel would actually be so focused on getting the hostages back that they would negotiate rather than invade.

[quote]When Israel said, fuck it, we're going to go ahead and kill as many of you cunts as we can even at the risk of losing the hostages, they lost their value.

Oh come on. Hamas have shown no interest in showing proof of life. Where have the aid agencies been in this? How could Israel possibly negotiate with Hamas?

The American mother and daughter were released early on and then the two elderly women but that's it. What about the foreign nationals? The Thai workers, one of whom was photographed tied up next to a bag of Japanese provided grain?

The fact is that the rest of the world couldn't give a fuck about Israeli hostages, as you've seen from the posters being torn down. If there was interest then Hamas *might* be open to negotiation.

Does anyone expect Naama Levy to be alive? The teenager dragged from the back of a jeep by her hair, the back of her trousers soaked in blood, and forced into the back of the jeep with countless Hamas men?

The Hamas supporters will always try to portray Israel as blood thirsty villains desperate to kill children, including their own citizens.

by Anonymousreply 163November 18, 2023 5:10 PM

R163 out of interest, do you care about the 100s of Palestinian children currently rotting in Israeli prisons, without charge, or trial? Taken from their own territories and families illegally?

by Anonymousreply 164November 18, 2023 5:12 PM

[quote]Yes apparently they have over 10,000 illegally held. Hostages essentially. Funny (peculiar) nobody really talks about them???

[quote]do you care about the 100s of Palestinian children currently rotting in Israeli prisons

I suppose you could give specifics. Not that you would lie or anything, but Hamas has played fast and loose with numbers.

What if you put up posters with their photos and specifics about arrest, imprisonment, charges if any, legal status, etc.?

by Anonymousreply 165November 18, 2023 6:51 PM

[quote]CNN agrees with BBC, for all intents and purposes accused the IDF of staging their ‘haul’ at Al Shifa, the hospital that was bombed bc they said they had proof it was a Hamas command center, which they obviously didn’t

From 2014:

"At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling 'unity government' in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, [bold]which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices[/bold]."

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by Anonymousreply 166November 18, 2023 6:54 PM

Wow R166 a 10 year old story. Well that proves it!

R165 I posted a bunch of stories from timesofisrael / Jerusalem post on a previous thread in this series (maybe pt.4). Here’s one below listing there being 1000+ prisoners in ‘administrative detention’ from earlier this year pre Oct 7th, this means no charge no trial( and doesn’t include the rest of the prisoners, all of whom have been moved across international boundaries which makes them illegal prisoners. AFAIK 4400 approx total at the time. There are stats of what proportion of those are children if you do a quick google. I can only attach one link per post and I’m not listing them all again bc you’re too lazy to look for yourself x

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by Anonymousreply 167November 18, 2023 7:00 PM

Sure, r167, keep pretending that al Shifa Hospital being a Hamas operation center is just Israeli propaganda.

If you thought a 10-year-old story was funny, this will have you in stitches. From 2006:

[quote]In the summer of 2006, as internal battles fractured the Palestinian Territories, WIDE ANGLE visited Shifa Hospital, the largest in the Gaza Strip, following doctors, nurses, and staff as they struggle in the face of turf wars between Hamas, rival faction Fatah, and powerful families with competing agendas. Our cameras reveal that gun-battles inside the hospital,

Yeah, Israel just made it all up.

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by Anonymousreply 168November 18, 2023 7:33 PM

[quote]Yes apparently they have over 10,000 illegally held.

[quote]Here’s one below listing there being 1000+ prisoners in ‘administrative detention’

The article refers to 1,264. Isn't it curious how the number decreased by an order of magnitude when I requested specifics?

by Anonymousreply 169November 18, 2023 7:38 PM

[quote]Amnesty in 2015 - Hamas uses the al-Shifa hospital for the interrogation and torture of abducted Palestinian 'collaborators'.

[quote]Amnesty in 2023 - no way Hamas would use the al-Shifa hospital as a weapons cache and ammunition locker ....

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by Anonymousreply 170November 18, 2023 7:46 PM

R168, it’s obvious that Israel did not effectively monitor Hamas. It is, therefore, possible that, at some point after 2014, the group restructured its operations so when the IDF actually entered al-Shifa it was no longer an important site.

by Anonymousreply 171November 18, 2023 8:08 PM

[quote]it’s obvious that Israel did not effectively monitor Hamas.

No, it isn't.

by Anonymousreply 172November 18, 2023 8:11 PM

So obvious R171 that bodies of hostages are being recovered at the hospital.

by Anonymousreply 173November 18, 2023 8:11 PM

Analysis of the situation from Anshel Pfeffer (twitter link is the thread he wrote on October 8th, referred to as "I wrote this 6 weeks ago)

I wrote this 6 weeks ago, 24 hours since the war started and I’ve been thinking about it since. What were Hamas thinking and will there be a point that whoever is left of its leadership admits it made a massive strategic mistake? Or will they forever see October 7 as a victory? >

Put aside a moment your personal opinion of Israel’s response, whether you think its fully justified, flawed or downright evil. The result is now that Gaza City is in ruins and 1.5m Gazans have been displaced. And it was entirely predictable. Was Hamas predicting this? >

We can’t ask any Hamas leader now. Hamas-watchers I have been asking may not be the best people to ask since they all failed to see October 7 coming. But that’s what we have for now. The majority view is this was a massive strategic miscalculation by Hamas chief Yihya Sinwar >

Sinwar spent years in Israeli prison, studied Hebrew, spent long hours talking with Israeli intelligence officers and is known to be a big consumer of Israeli media. In 2011 he was the point-man on the Shalit prisoner exchange deal which also got him out of jail and back to Gaza>

Over the past 12 years Sinwar built his position as Hamas boss in Gaza; the first to effectively lead both political and military wings. He also continued a personal dialog with Netanyahu through various go-betweens, hoodwinking Bibi that he was focused on building Gaza, not war>

October 7 was Sinwar’s personal triumph. He succeeded in convincing the Israeli leadership, defense establishment and intelligence community from Netanyahu downwards, that he preferred consolidating his hold on Gaza to launching all-out war. He sold them what they wanted to hear>

But the question remains unanswered. Did Sinwar expect the Israeli response? The majority of Hamas-watchers who think he didn’t predict this are basing their assessment on this on intel from Hamas networks indicating widespread surprise at Israel going all the way into Gaza City>

The assessment is that Sinwar based his strategy on Israel’s reluctance to go into central Gaza in 2009 and 2014, on the lopsided Shalit deal and on what he’d seen of Netanyahu’s hesitancy. Also on a misplaced belief that Iran would send Hizbullah to Hamas’ aid. Makes sense, but>

There’s a minority view that Sinwar was aware when he launched the October 7 attack that he may be sacrificing Gaza in doing so. But that he felt the destruction of Gaza City by Israel would be worthwhile because it would trigger a regional war swamping Israel on multiple fronts>

This may be true. So far a regional war hasn’t doesn’t seem to be happening. But it does mean that Sinwar still has a strategy and whatever Hamas does is aimed at making it happen. It’s why he’s not allowing the captive media in Gaza show the destroyed city but Al-Shifa instead >

Hamas controls the media output from Gaza & doesn’t want the Arab world to see the destruction of Gaza City. It wants them to see Israeli soldiers going into hospitals and other remaining pockets of civilians still in Gaza. Sinwar’s hope is for an incident triggering regional war

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by Anonymousreply 174November 18, 2023 8:16 PM

[quote] The article refers to 1,264. Isn't it curious how the number decreased by an order of magnitude when I requested specifics?

Le sigh. Those on administrative detention are a subset of the total population R169 🙄🙄🙄. Do you know what a subset is? Like I said go google it yourself. Or do I need to explain to you how to google something?

by Anonymousreply 175November 18, 2023 8:41 PM

[quote]Like I said go google it yourself.

Because you don't have the evidence to back up your claim.

If you argue a point, it's up to you to provide evidence. When you don't, or can't, it's reasonable to ignore your argument.

by Anonymousreply 176November 18, 2023 8:45 PM

Here’s stats from September R169. Pre Oct 7th in case you need that explained to you, after which thousands more have been arrested.

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by Anonymousreply 177November 18, 2023 8:45 PM

R176 girl just bc you can’t understand an article doesn’t mean there isn’t evidence within it 😂😂😂

by Anonymousreply 178November 18, 2023 8:46 PM

The highest number on the Btselem bar graph is just shy of 8,000, and that number is from 2008.

The claim was

[quote]Yes apparently they have over 10,000 illegally held.

The number for June 2023 from your Btselem link is under 5,000. Where oh where did that > 10,000 illegally held come from?

by Anonymousreply 179November 18, 2023 8:53 PM

That is interesting r174. They really may have been stupid enough to think they could wildly escalate but all the old rules would still apply. Of course, fanatics are always in danger of believing their own bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 180November 18, 2023 8:56 PM

The NYT Daily podcast did an episode last week about Hamas’ motivation. The people they interviewed thought Hamas fully expected a brutal response in order to jar the world into paying attention to the Palestinian cause. If that’s true, it’s been a wild success. Especially with the TikTok/bin Laden crowd.

by Anonymousreply 181November 18, 2023 9:02 PM

Well, it's been a "wild success" if they actually wanted to see the death of a lot of Palestinians. And of course they may have. I'm sure they truly don't give a fuck about the average death for Allah's cause. But if they think this will lead to the whole world actually doing fuck all for Gazans, they have probably miscalculated. There will be sobbing. There will be howling. There will be demonstrating. And there will continue to be the flattening of Northern Gaza. But hey, at least some assholes get the weird thrill of tearing down posters and then rushing to Tik Tok to cry about it if anybody objects.

by Anonymousreply 182November 18, 2023 9:12 PM

[quote]While Hamas was massacring innocents & while the IDF was fighting Hamas inside Israel Samidoun had already created an international "calendar of resistance for Palestine"

[quote]On Oct 7th they'd already posted events in Europe and all over the USA to attack Israel

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by Anonymousreply 183November 18, 2023 9:18 PM

[quote] Further, there are an estimated 4,000 Gazan workers (out of the 21,000 who had permits to work in Israel before October 7) who recently “disappeared” into special military detention camps, probably at Anatot and Ofer.)

Now R179 concentrate hard and tell me what’s 6 + 4.

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by Anonymousreply 184November 18, 2023 9:26 PM

Since October 7th Hamas have fired over 10,000 missiles into Israel.

But Israel have the iron dome so that’s cool bro

by Anonymousreply 185November 18, 2023 9:34 PM

According to who R185 the IDF??? Any stats on rockets fired into Gaza by Israel bro?

by Anonymousreply 186November 18, 2023 9:46 PM

Thanks for the new link, r184.

[quote]Altogether, Israel now holds 6,704 “security” prisoners, which includes the administrative detainees as well as another 2,321 detainees facing criminal charges, and another 2,313 prisoners who are serving sentences following convictions in the Israeli military courts, according to HaMoked and the IPS.

Are you claiming the 2,321 detainees facing criminal charges are being held illegally? Are you claiming the 2,313 convicted prisoners are being held illegally?

I find the "administrative detention" business dubious, at best. If you call them illegal, I won't argue. But you have not produced compelling evidence that over 10,000 are [italic]illegally[/italic] held.

by Anonymousreply 187November 18, 2023 10:01 PM

R187 they’re taken into Israel prisons, across international borders, that violates international law. Israel themselves have released figures that that amount are held in administrative detention so you can dubious yourself away all you want but your opinion doesn’t matter sorry.

by Anonymousreply 188November 18, 2023 10:08 PM

[quote] they’re taken into Israel prisons, across international borders

All of them? Really, you're claiming none of them were apprehended on Israeli territory?

[quote]that violates international law

Arguable. I will not concede these people are all illegally held and you have not come close to presenting a valid argument.

by Anonymousreply 189November 18, 2023 10:15 PM

Far left extremists are idiots. Let’s see how much all those hags protesting love Islam when Iqbal is beating them and they have to walk around draped in a burqa

by Anonymousreply 190November 18, 2023 10:16 PM

[quote]so you can dubious yourself away all you want but your opinion doesn’t matter sorry.

Within the past 30 days, have you quibbled over how many babies were beheaded? Have you argued that there was no evidence Israeli women were raped on October 7 or thereafter while in captivity? If the answer to either question is yes, then you really have no right to whine about being expected to put up good numbers or valid arguments. Also, since Hamas has recently claimed that hundreds at a hospital were killed by Israel when, in fact, a Palestinian missile went astray and struck a parking lot, all numbers coming from Hamas or suspected to be providence by Hamas are subject to scrutiny.

by Anonymousreply 191November 18, 2023 10:26 PM

R191, just block the poster and all the "but Israel are worse because XXXX"

A typical conversation will be

"Israeli women were brutally raped and mutilated by Hamas"

"Hun Israel rape and butcher more Palestinian women than Hamas could ever dream of lol"

Just delete and he disappears from defending Hamas in other threads.

by Anonymousreply 192November 18, 2023 10:35 PM

[quote]Here’s one below listing there being 1000+ prisoners in ‘administrative detention’ from earlier this year pre Oct 7th, this means no charge no trial( and doesn’t include the rest of the prisoners, all of whom have been moved across international boundaries which makes them illegal prisoners.

That really makes me want to go crazy and cut the tits off an Israeli girl and gang rape her until her pelvis breaks and then blow her brains out.... I mean that is the natural response isn't it? That's what resistance fighters do, right? Or am I wrong brothers?

by Anonymousreply 193November 18, 2023 10:38 PM

[quote] Just delete and he disappears from defending Hamas in other threads.

Yea just delete anything contrary to your biases, that’s a sure foot forward 😭😭😭

by Anonymousreply 194November 18, 2023 10:38 PM

When I read earlier--I think it was just one line--that there was a mass grave with 180 bodies, I did wonder if that was the majority of the hostages. The numbers align, but leaves room that maybe 20-40 are still alive somewhere. With 10,000 Palestinians killed, you would need a larger mass grave, so the numbers seemed strange to me.

Where did you read the mass grave is being excavated, btw?

I wonder how much longer Netanyahu will stay in power. He should be ousted right away, particularly since there is no convincing proof to me that the hospital was the headquarters of Hamas. And I suppose it's unsurprising they are now all marching south.

by Anonymousreply 195November 18, 2023 10:46 PM


Statement from University of Alberta on their Sexual Assault Centre

The recent improper and unauthorized use of the name of the University of Alberta’s Sexual Assault Centre in endorsing an open letter (which denied Hamas raped and mutilated Israeli women) has raised understandable concerns from members of our community and the public. Effective immediately, the director of the centre (Samantha Pearson) is no longer employed by the university. The university has appointed a new interim director of the Sexual Assault Centre.

I want to be clear that the former employee’s personal views and opinions do not in any way represent those of the University of Alberta. The University of Alberta stands firmly and unequivocally against discrimination and hatred on the basis of religion, race, ethnicity, national origin, and other protected categories. We recognize the historical and ongoing harms of antisemitism and commit to doing all we can as a university to advance a world free of prejudice and discrimination. The services provided by the university, particularly those supporting the well-being and health of community members, must be open and welcoming to all individuals in our diverse community. The new leadership at the Sexual Assault Centre is committed to swiftly implementing the changes required to ensure this university commitment is upheld.

I understand that this event has been profoundly hurtful and may have compromised the trust of individuals in our community. I also recognize the significant potential negative impact given the critical nature of the centre’s work. On behalf of the university, I apologize for the hurt and distress this issue has caused members of our community and beyond. As a university, we commit to continued action to restore your trust.

Bill Flanagan President and Vice-Chancellor

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by Anonymousreply 196November 18, 2023 10:52 PM

This is what I don't get...

If everyone is dead-set on separating Palestinians from Hamas - If everyone agrees that the brutality witnessed on Oct 7 was horrific - then why isn't the World calling out for Hamas to surrender - THAT is the only thing that is going to save Palestinian Children.

Supporting Palestine and NOT calling for Hamas to surrender is support for Hamas.

by Anonymousreply 197November 18, 2023 10:52 PM

Agreed R197!

by Anonymousreply 198November 18, 2023 10:54 PM

Totally agree with r197.

[quote]One thing and I’m open to comments on this, why would you take hostages and then kill them? Surely the whole point of hostages is that you keep them alive as some sort of bargaining piece?

We're not dealing with logical or rational kidnappers here. These are brutal, mentally ill barbaric terrorists who clearly didn't have a clear plan of what to do with those they snatched over the border, except to eventually torture and execute them when the mood struck. Taking them was imo simply a way to further torture and harass the Israeli population - the majority of hostages were elderly, women and children of course.

by Anonymousreply 199November 18, 2023 11:15 PM

I wish someone who was more savvy and connected than me would start:

Save Palestinian Children - #HamasNeedstoSurrender or #SurrenderHamas .

I would love to see how the Pro-Palestinians would spin that - as if Hamas is a group of freedom fighters, defending Palestine. They don't care about Palestine. Their leaders aren't even there. The ONLY reason Israel is attacking Palestine is because of Hamas. If they surrendered, this would all be over.

by Anonymousreply 200November 18, 2023 11:33 PM

R200 you can’t play this like it’s one sided. Israel needs to give the lands they took through settlements back to Palestine, acknowledge them as a state, stop their economic and political interference in Palestine, stop the IDF from randomly killing Palestinians whenever they want, and release any prisoner that’s being kept in administrative detention immediately. And stop bombing hospitals and schools.

by Anonymousreply 201November 19, 2023 12:17 AM

R201, what a grand idea. Reward Hamas for cutting babies from their mothers’ wombs and killing children in front of their parents. Are you really that stupid?

by Anonymousreply 202November 19, 2023 12:28 AM

R202 ok all of you need to get a grip. Far more Palestinians have died than Israelis. Nobody is being rewarded. To stop more people dying a two state solution is the only way forward. You must know this unless you’re a single cell brain sort.

by Anonymousreply 203November 19, 2023 12:39 AM

Well, this feller promises: We will do to you what happened on October 7th again and again. Allahu akbar.

It sounds as though someone else is yelling Allahu akbar with him, though it's a chaotic scene. After seeing this sort of thing, the people tearing down hostage posters, the marchers blocking traffic, I can't support a ceasefire until Hamas is removed from power. I see no indications of good faith. I see abuse and promises of more abuse.

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by Anonymousreply 204November 19, 2023 12:53 AM

Palestinians do not want a two state solution. And absolutely, if the result of October 7 is to do all the things you suggest, there will be bloodier attacks by Hamas to get the full river to the sea result,

And the number of casualties is not a measure of justice. Germans lost 4 million in WWII and the Japanese lost 3 million, while the US and UK each lost about 400,000. Does that mean the Axis was in the right?

by Anonymousreply 205November 19, 2023 12:53 AM

R202 I am talking about ending the war right now, which you would agree is important. The first step is for Hamas to surrender. Wouldn’t you agree? Or do you support their type of target civilian mutilation and terror as a form of resistance? I am not suggesting this is one sided. But do you support Hamas?

by Anonymousreply 206November 19, 2023 1:00 AM

[quote] After seeing this sort of thing, the people tearing down hostage posters, the marchers blocking traffic, I can't support a ceasefire until Hamas is removed from power. I see no indications of good faith. I see abuse and promises of more abuse.

With respect R204, you’re choosing a couple of events that have been pushed by the media around the world that are not an accurate measure of how people are generally acting. And the marchers shutting down bridges are expressing their right to free protest, so complaining about that is a little undemocratic. There are crazies on both sides of this situation, there are Israelis calling for the obliteration of all Palestinians, does that mean they all think that way? I don’t think so. Similar but opposite to you, I don’t see the Israelis acting in good faith, with their faked videos, bombing schools and hospitals etc. a ceasefire is the only way forward.

by Anonymousreply 207November 19, 2023 1:08 AM

I think you mistagged me, r205, but of course I think Hamas surrendering and turning over the hostages is the right first step. A ceasefire would then be an appropriate second step. Not negotiating some kind of larger solution because of Hamas’ hang gliders and massacres.

by Anonymousreply 208November 19, 2023 1:08 AM

[quote] Palestinians do not want a two state solution.

I think they do. Their political / military leaders might not but your everyday Palestinian wants to live a normal life. Israel does not want a two state solution, but I’m sure your average Israel also wants to live in peace, and therefore would be fine with a two state solution. The intentional community has to force a ceasefire and talks. The US needs to give up its blanket support of Israel and insist on a ceasefire now.

by Anonymousreply 209November 19, 2023 1:13 AM

You think they do, r209, but actual polling shows otherwise. Only 24 percent suppprt a two state solution.

Americans tend to impose their own story. For example, framing this as a white versus brown struggle. Or deciding that Palestinians want a two state solution. Enjoy living in a fantasy, but don’t expect others to join you,

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by Anonymousreply 210November 19, 2023 1:19 AM

[quote]you’re choosing a couple of events

No, I've seen dozens of events on different continents. I've seen an appalling disregard for the suffering of Israelis. Groups that claim to oppose sexual violence have gone silent and refused to support Israeli victims. I cannot count the number of people tearing down hostage posters.

[quote] And the marchers shutting down bridges are expressing their right to free protest

No, they are bullies. Shutting down transportation, blocking exits and entrances to buildings, those actions are not free speech. They have every right to hold up signs expressing their views, however appalling those views might be. They may speak up. But when they interfere with free movement, when they physically attack people who disagree with them, they masks come off. They are bullies. They number in the tens of thousands and they have made their presence known.

by Anonymousreply 211November 19, 2023 1:27 AM

When they are outside my window screaming from the river to the sea for an hour straight I am not seeing them on the media.

by Anonymousreply 212November 19, 2023 1:33 AM

R210 that’s depressing. Seems around thr same level of Israelis think the same. Altho it does seem like the phrasing of the question is more in the “do you see it happening” rather “do you approve” so hopefully those numbers are higher.

by Anonymousreply 213November 19, 2023 1:34 AM

[quote] No, I've seen dozens of events on different continents. I've seen an appalling disregard for the suffering of Israelis. Groups that claim to oppose sexual violence have gone silent and refused to support Israeli victims. I cannot count the number of people tearing down hostage posters.

Wow “dozens” across the continents. It’s endemic! 🙄

There’s been disregard for the suffering of Palestinians too (these threads for instance).

[quote] No, they are bullies. Shutting down transportation, blocking exits and entrances to buildings, those actions are not free speech. They have every right to hold up signs expressing their views, however appalling those views might be. They may speak up. But when they interfere with free movement, when they physically attack people who disagree with them, they masks come off. They are bullies. They number in the tens of thousands and they have made their presence known.

Girl shut the fuck up and stop embarrassing yourself. You sound like a preteen.

by Anonymousreply 214November 19, 2023 1:37 AM

[quote]Wow “dozens” across the continents. It’s endemic!

Those are the events that I've seen publicized. I'm guessing the individual actions number in the thousands. It looks like an epidemic to me.

Your ridicule is noted, though, again. It doesn't help. You're just adding to the evidence that the pain of Jews and/or Israelis does not matter. If I worry openly about what is going on, you, and others like you, will ridicule me. And then,

[quote]There’s been disregard for the suffering of Palestinians too

you will turn to whataboutery. You won't take a second even to pretend to care about the pain endured by Israelis on and after October 7. All that matters to you is the opportunity to attack Jews. IMHO, if you truly cared about Palestinians, you would want Hamas pushed out of power.

[quote]There’s been disregard for the suffering of Palestinians too

Not from me.

by Anonymousreply 215November 19, 2023 1:51 AM

[quote]Girl shut the fuck up and stop embarrassing yourself. You sound like a preteen.

Again, your ridicule is noted. Your lack of sympathy is noted. Your inability to discern between speech and action is noted. And I am not impressed.

by Anonymousreply 216November 19, 2023 1:55 AM

R216 Mary! Haha get a grip of yourself girl it’s not about you.

[quote] Those are the events that I've seen publicized.

You’re *this* close to getting it. Think dammit think!

by Anonymousreply 217November 19, 2023 2:05 AM

Oh, wait, I've got it, r217! The Jews control the media, amirite?

You can't even pretend to care about their suffering, can you?

by Anonymousreply 218November 19, 2023 2:18 AM

R218 what I was getting at is that the press is sensationalizing things for clicks, and that your own personal algorithm is showing you things you consume readily, but whooosh. Btw if your first mind connection is to say something about Jewish people and the media I’d say the tropes are closer to the top of your mind than mine unfortunately. Best advice is to consume media more mindfully x

And yes I have sympathy for every single civilian that has been killed, Israeli, Palestinian or international, it’s a dreadful loss of life.

Something you cannot do yourself unfortunately, as we can see from your closing comment at 215.

by Anonymousreply 219November 19, 2023 2:33 AM

Tentative deal to free the hostages and pause fighting for five days. Cease fire plan brokered by the US government. (Thank you Uncle Joe)

by Anonymousreply 220November 19, 2023 2:40 AM

But are there any hostages left alive to free, to justify the ceasefire? I'll believe it when I see it. Hamas are just too bloodthirsty and stupid to have kept most alive by now.

by Anonymousreply 221November 19, 2023 2:48 AM

Hamas needs to surrender, period. There is only one group here who films itself executing young women while they gleefully gang rape them, and cutting off their breasts, and it ain't the IDF.

That said, Netanyahu and his gang have also got to go, immediately. And a sane government installed, one that respects the democratic rule of law, stops new settlements in the West Bank, and the harassment and illegal detention of Palestinians there. They will have no moral leg to stand on, otherwise.

And I've got news, there isn't going to be a two state solution. It will be a three state one: Israel, Gaza and the West Bank separately. There is no way to run both Gaza and the West Bank as one political unit, there is too much Israeli expanse between them, and no way to guarantee safe passage either for Palestinians or Israelis living in between the areas. Oct 7th put paid to any hope of a single Palestinian state I'm afraid.

by Anonymousreply 222November 19, 2023 2:54 AM

Uncle Joe talks out of both sides of his mouth. Let’s protect citizens , meanwhile bombs away on Gaza. I read yesterday that 1 in 200 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed. What ceasefire brokered? I wish it was true. Last I read, the IDF is moving south and expanding the war. Meanwhile, Israeli families of hostages are marching in protest of Bibi because they want their family members returned. How is this all out war getting those hostages back?

by Anonymousreply 223November 19, 2023 3:11 AM

This was posted at 9:08 EST:

Nov 18 (Reuters) - Israel, the United States and Hamas have reached a tentative agreement to free dozens of women and children held hostage in Gaza in exchange for a five-day pause in fighting, the Washington Post reported on Saturday, citing people familiar with the deal.

As part of the detailed, six-page agreement, all parties would freeze combat operations for at least five days while "an initial 50 or more hostages are released in smaller groups every 24 hours", the Post reported. Hamas took about 240 hostages during its Oct. 7 rampage inside Israel that killed 1,200 people.

The newspaper said overhead surveillance would monitor ground movement to help police the pause, which also is intended to allow in a significant amount of humanitarian aid.

There was no immediate comment from the White House or the Israeli prime minister's office on the Post report.

The hostage release could begin within the next several days, according to people familiar with its the agreement.

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by Anonymousreply 224November 19, 2023 3:35 AM

[quote]what I was getting at is that the press is sensationalizing things for clicks, and that your own personal algorithm is showing you things you consume readily,

No, because, for one thing, I'm not getting my information directly from the media, so it's not a media algorithm driving the information I accumulate. Furthermore, this has been going on for more than a month. I don't know exactly when people started putting up hostage posters. However, it didn't take long for people to start tearing them down. It looked to me as though their behavior was organized and directed. The incessant attacks on people who accused Hamas of rape or beheading were definitely organized. People were following instructions. Some of that is analysis from other people, some is my own. But the repetitiveness of the phrasing and the lack of original thought indicate organization.

I'm disgusted. I'm disgusted that Hamas supporters organized attacks on the credibility of people discussing the October 7 attacks. I'm attacked that people blindly followed those instructions. I'm disgusted by the lack of compassion for the suffering of the Israelis on that day. I'm disgusted by the sneering I heard on October 8 from Hamas supporters ridiculing Israeli suffering. Seeing the concerted action kills any desire for a ceasefire from me. I can see that the people of Gaza are suffering. I wish it were over. But I will not support a ceasefire until Hamas is out of power.

by Anonymousreply 225November 19, 2023 4:11 AM

R167 So it's "illegally being moved across international boundaries" when Israel imprisons Palestinian security threats and terrorists, but it's an "open air prison restricting the free movement of Palestinians between Gaza and Israel" when Israel has enforced border security? Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

by Anonymousreply 226November 19, 2023 4:38 AM

Analysis from a British/Polish academic

The war in Gaza shows the limitations of hybrid warfare. Hamas‘s tactics was initially very clever. It managed to completely mislead the Israelis by pretending to have become more “moderate” after the Israelis relaxed restrictions on transfer of funds to Gaza and allowed more Gazans to travel to and work in Israel (some of these workers provided Hamas with the information it needed to carry out the attack). Hamas also successfully used the old “cry wolf” tactics - by staging 9 or 10 “practice assaults“ before the real one.

Hamas also took advantage of the greater reluctance of Israeli troops to open fire without certainty that the target was armed and dangerous. This is how an Israeli tank, which could have presented an unsurmountable obstacle, was captured and its crew slaughtered.

The extreme brutality of the assault, the rapes, the murder of babies - all was deliberate and carefully planned. The aim was not only to capture hostages but also to make Israel retaliate with fury and cause a maximum number of civilian casualties amomg the Gazans.

This was the key part of the hybrid war strategy. The main operational tool was going to be the Western media and the hundreds of thousands of Islamists planted in the West thought the insane immigration policies and the millions of leftist and left-liberal cretins who are the the islamist’s “useful idiots”. All of this went as well as Hamas could have hoped and everyone played the assigned role as well as could be expected.

But the next part of the plan is not going well and almost certainly make all the successes futile.

According to the plan, the combined efforts of the Hamas propagandist in Western media, the mass demonstrations, and also the deliberate violent intimidation were going to force Israel to accept a ceasefire, as happened in the past. This would be followed by an exchange of some surviving hostages for a large number of terrorists held by Israel and finally the ceasefire would turn into an indefinite one - that is, lasting until the next opportunity

And here is where the miscalculation occurred. Hamas did not seriously consider the possibility that this time Israel would yield to pressure, would not accept a ceasefire and would continue the offensive until Hamas’ total destruction. It became clear that Hamas’ plan was not was not working when the reaction of the US turned out to be very different from the past.

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by Anonymousreply 227November 19, 2023 9:16 AM


After a little hesitation the Biden administration publicly agreed that the complete destruction of Hamas is desirable. It also showed a greater readiness to become directly involved militarily in case Iran or Hezbollah decided to enter the fray. In fact, he reaction of Hezbollah and Iran has been undoubtedly a great disappointment to Hamas and will become even greater. The point is that Iran is not ready for war but it also does not want to be seen as having suffered a defeat. Iran’s failure to support Hamas in its hour of need will damage Iran’s standing among the militant anti-Israel forces in the Muslim world, unless Iran can place the blame squarely on Hamas. And, according to reports, this is what Khamenei has been doing.

Reportedly he told Hamas that Iran would not be able to help it because they (Hamas) did not consult Iran before the attack, staged it at the wrong time and will themselves have to bear the consequences.

If Hamas is destroyed, as I am pretty sure will happen, others will also try to disassociate themselves from failure. Erdogan will actually find himself in a more embarrassing position than Iran, because as usual the toughness of his words is not matched by actions. On the other hand, he has done this many times before and although it often looked like he painted himself into a corner, he somehow managed to get out of it.

Another thing that seems significant to me, and which could be of very great importance, is the completely out of character behaviour of Germany, which only has been much tougher and pro-Israel in speech than ever before but also has matched this toughness with action. The German reaction against the antisemitic, pro-Hamas displayed has not only been tougher (im fact, incomparably) than that of the UK and France, but also than the rest of Europe and even the USA (in the last case, of course, the difference in the legal system is largely responsible for the difference). In fact, as far as Europe is concerned, the reaction of Germany is one of the few reasons for cautious optimism.

by Anonymousreply 228November 19, 2023 9:16 AM

Yes R202, I mis-tagged you in R206. I meant R203, the resident Palestinian supporter. There is a disconnect in Palestinian supporter's thinking and a dishonesty in their statement. The corn of all of their arguments, if expressly stated or not, is that Israel shouldn't even exist - turn over ALL of the land. If you hold their feet to the fire and keep digging deeper into their reasoning, that is their ultimate answer for them to this problem. People like him become the biggest apologist for terror groups. On one hand they want you to separate Palestinians from Hamas, but they themselves don't do this because groups like Hamas are fighting for what they see as the ultimate solution, no Israel. They point to things like a 2-State solution without even realizing that Palestine's biggest opportunity for a 2-State solution was in 2005 when Israel left the Gaza strip completely. And we now see what that got Israel - the biggest attack on their nation since its inception.

So here we are now. When you point out that Hamas should surrender to posters like r203, the best thing they can say is, "this is not one sided." But if people like him ACTUALLY cared about Palestinians he would see the best thing right now would be for Hamas, a terror group, to surrender. But no, they will never say that. And that is why the world sees them as Anti-Semites. And they are, because by NOT calling for Hamas to surrender in their continued support of Palestinians they are supporting a terror group that wishes death to all Jews (around the world, not just Israel).

so R203, why aren't you also calling for the surrender of Hamas?

by Anonymousreply 229November 19, 2023 9:49 AM

According to the NYT this morning Uncle Joe is going to start denying Visas to the settlers. I am happy to see all of this good news this weekend.

by Anonymousreply 230November 19, 2023 1:16 PM

very positive news R230 - do you have any idea what percentage of West Bank settlers are American citizen?

by Anonymousreply 231November 19, 2023 1:43 PM

Fascinating R227. I have been wondering how we are not going to get dragged into a war with Iran.

by Anonymousreply 232November 19, 2023 2:55 PM

R221, the U.S. believes that the majority of the hostages are still alive. Only two or three days ago, Netanyahu rejected the possibility of a pause in hostilities in exchange for the release of women and children. That, apparently, didn't go over well in either Israel or the U.S.

Netanyahu also publicly warned his far-right cabinet members against making statements about "Nakba 2023" and nuking Gaza. That probably also came up in meetings with U.S. officials.

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by Anonymousreply 233November 19, 2023 2:56 PM

All pro-Palestine supporters are Hamas supporters and need to be pit on a terrorist watchlist.

by Anonymousreply 234November 19, 2023 3:21 PM

Yemeni rebels (Yebels) have hijacked a cargo ship sailing from Turkey to India with a vague link to Israel through the company's owners. There are no Israelis on board.

by Anonymousreply 235November 19, 2023 4:50 PM

Live IDF conference reporting that Noa Marciano, the 19 year old hostage, was being held hostage in a building next to the hospital. She was wounded in an airstrike where her captor was killed and she was then taken to the hospital where she was executed.

They're now showing CCTV from inside the hospital on October 7th showing hostages from Thailand and Nepal taken into the hospital. There are medical staff everywhere when the hostages were taken in. There's also footage of the vehicles used to kidnap hostages in Israel filmed at the hospital that morning.

by Anonymousreply 236November 19, 2023 7:10 PM

R236, why would it be strange for Hamas to take wounded hostages to the hospital? That doesn’t mean it was their command center. So far, this evidence isn’t panning out.

by Anonymousreply 237November 19, 2023 7:25 PM

Why would hostages taken by Hamas have been wounded R237?

And if the hostages were taken to the hospital for medical treatment how did none of the NGOs operating there know about it, or the medical staff who have regularly been interviewed about conditions at the hospital?

by Anonymousreply 238November 19, 2023 7:30 PM

Interesting 230 , ElderLez , about Joe Biden wanting to ban West Bank settlers from entering US. A few months ago all Israelis were supposed to have visa waivers by November 30 th. I wonder how that is going to change that deal now…wonder how US Customs know which individuals would be West Bank settlers? Since a lot of IDF is complicit with a lot of West Bank violence, ,have they could start there? You seem to keep up on the news, for sure…I’m not being facetious…

by Anonymousreply 239November 19, 2023 7:33 PM

Use your brain please R238 and stop reasoning away everything. These are people who would shoot a hostage in the head if their shoelaces came undone and they were slowing them down. You REALLY think they are going to take a hostage to a hospital to be take care of? Of course it's a command center.

This was carefully planned for a long time, the killing, the hostages. The hostages were all separated into different places. I think those first two hostages released at the very beginning who said they had decent captors were part of the plan too. Once Hamas realized Israel wasn't letting up and negotiating for the release of the others and just bombing the fuck out of Palestine, I am sure those hostages were receiving bullets left and right.

by Anonymousreply 240November 19, 2023 7:34 PM

^r237 I mean in R240

by Anonymousreply 241November 19, 2023 7:34 PM

Waiting for these hostages is eerily similar to waiting for survivors from the twin towers on 9/11 before people began to slowly realize, oh there are no survivors. I remember walking down past St. Vincent's on that day and all the doctors were lined up outside, just waiting, waiting for the ambulances to start arriving, and none ever did.

by Anonymousreply 242November 19, 2023 7:37 PM

R238 and r240, I’m not denying that Hamas is comfortable operating out of the hospital. There is video footage of interviews (before 2023) done in the lobby.

A live hostage is more valuable than a dead one. In fact, if you actually watch the video, one hostage is wheeled in on a gurney. If Hamas fighters brought hostages across the border, and one was injured, the most logical thing to do would be to bring them in for care. Which is what the video looks like.

It certainly proves that some doctors knew Hanas was at least present on the hospital. But I haven’t seen evidence that there was a massive command center under or in the hospital, which is the narrative being pushed.

by Anonymousreply 243November 19, 2023 7:41 PM

[quote]It certainly proves that some doctors knew Hanas was at least present on the hospital.


There are reports a hostage exchange deal is imminent - ONLY 50 women and children however.

I keep thinking about the young men pulled out of the bomb shelter at the rave, missing limbs, forced onto the back of pick up truck, barely conscious. I hope they are not left to rot.

by Anonymousreply 244November 19, 2023 7:43 PM

If Hamas was holding the hostages in Gaza, and Israel was bombing Gaza, it’s entirely possible that some of the hostages were injured or killed. Makes sense to me.

by Anonymousreply 245November 19, 2023 8:06 PM

I would imagine hostages are not going to stop Israel from doing what it needs to do. If they can rescue some, all the better. But I am sure that is not their main focus. Considering that most of the families now realize it would be a miracle to see their relatives again, while others are hoping they were dead a long time ago, I think Israel is leaving their rescue to exactly that - a miracle.

by Anonymousreply 246November 19, 2023 8:09 PM

R246, just a few days ago there was a huge protest demanding the return of the hostages. For some reason no one seem to trust Netanyahu. But then he's the man who used a fake hostage family member to tell actual hostage family members that they should just get over it and accept the deaths of their loved ones.

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by Anonymousreply 247November 19, 2023 8:54 PM

r237, does it look to you as though this hostage is wounded? Do you believe the guys with guns are bringing him there for treatment and just happen to have guns in case they see a deer wandering around? Do you it's possible they're forcing that person into the hospital to keep him in captivity? And seeing armed men moving freely through the hospital, how credible do you find doctors who claim that Hamas did not operate out of that hospital?

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by Anonymousreply 248November 20, 2023 1:20 AM

“There are no Hamas here” says doctor with gun pointed to his head off camera…

by Anonymousreply 249November 20, 2023 1:28 AM

R248, settle down. The other clip shows a hostage being wheeled around on a gurney. Five seconds isn’t enough to conclude much about the guy in the link you show, but he is a captive because he is in hostile territory, wherever they keep him.

Knowing that the hospital is a large complex and that Hamas fighters do not wear uniforms. I would conclude that some doctors may be lying and others may be oblivious. I’d want to see evidence to figure out the function of the hospital for Hamas.

One reason Hamas’ atttack succeeded was that Sinwar studied, understood, and exploited Israelis’ perspective. Much like bin Laden did to the US. Taking the opposite approach, which is to hysterically demonize your enemy, puts you in a much weaker position. Hamas did horrific acts, but fighting them means to understand them and exploit their weakness.

by Anonymousreply 250November 20, 2023 1:34 AM

"Taking the opposite approach, which is to hysterically demonize your enemy, puts you in a much weaker position."

Can you clarify? Do you mean that Israel is taking the opposite approach to what Hamas expected, and that opposite approach is to demonize Hamas? Or do you mean Hamas is doing the demonizing (sincerely just trying to understand your comment). not R248

by Anonymousreply 251November 20, 2023 2:27 AM

[quote][R248], settle down.

Go fuck yourself.

People here and all over social media have attacked Israel's claims that Hamas operated out of that hospital. The evidence keeps mounting that Al Shifa was used by Hamas, had been for years, and that that was known to multiple news organizations and aid organizations. I have posted evidence to that effect on this thread and have been ridiculed in response.

by Anonymousreply 252November 20, 2023 2:33 AM

The doctors are complicit. Arrest them all.

by Anonymousreply 253November 20, 2023 2:50 AM

It was interesting to read in the NYT the story of the wealthy American family who evacuated out of Gaza after going to visit relatives. They were in a well off part of Gaza, which I didn't know existed--the news never shows that part of Gaza. And then to read separately the the Israelis claim to have found weapons in this same wealthy neighborhood, which suggests that is where some of Hamas was living.

It's all reported...but I do wonder how widespread Hamas leaders were in the their community.

by Anonymousreply 254November 20, 2023 3:06 AM

R5 Are you mentally disordered? On 10/7/23 an attack came from Gaza. It was a massacre. Israelis were murdered, raped and kidnapped. Israel has responded as any nation would. Their citizens are still being held hostage.

by Anonymousreply 255November 20, 2023 3:26 AM

[quote] The evidence keeps mounting that Al Shifa was used by Hamas

lol no it doesn’t. There’s scant evidence that Hamas were using the hospital, and the video that Israel put out showing their ‘evidence’ has been torn to shreds by major news organizations (BBC CNN etc.) in terms of it’s credibility.

by Anonymousreply 256November 20, 2023 3:58 AM

[quote] The doctors are complicit. Arrest them all.

You people are psychotic.

by Anonymousreply 257November 20, 2023 3:59 AM

[quote]lol no it doesn’t.

I gather no one has sent you an email about how to respond to the new evidence, you're unable to think for yourself, so you're using the only tool in your box: ridicule. Don't bother. We know. The world knows. You can quit bothering us now.

by Anonymousreply 258November 20, 2023 4:06 AM

R258 lol wtf are you on about? You sound deranged.

by Anonymousreply 259November 20, 2023 4:08 AM

Here's a nice event for you, r259:

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by Anonymousreply 260November 20, 2023 4:20 AM

R260 you’re posting Andy Ngo? Have you no shame?

by Anonymousreply 261November 20, 2023 4:24 AM

Anything for r259, he needs friends.

by Anonymousreply 262November 20, 2023 4:30 AM

How is he psychotic r257? The staff in those Gaza hospital videos all seem to know what's going on. If any of the MDs or other staff were complicit in the harm or holding of any hostages (as opposed to simply being forced to deliver medical care to them), they should absolutely be grabbed by the IDF and detained as Hamas-adjacent.

by Anonymousreply 263November 20, 2023 4:44 AM

r254, this account links video and photos from #TheGazaYouDontSee

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by Anonymousreply 264November 20, 2023 4:53 AM

The idea of the doctors being “complicit” is a bit much. They live in a country run by radical Islamic terrorists. That’s the government in Gaza. What are the doctors supposed to do? I’m guessing Hamas threatened them (with death) to shut the fuck up and do their jobs.

All these “aid organizations” and news outlets though… that’s a different story.

by Anonymousreply 265November 20, 2023 2:10 PM

[quote][R236], why would it be strange for Hamas to take wounded hostages to the hospital? That doesn’t mean it was their command center. So far, this evidence isn’t panning out.

I'm seeing maps on the NYT site showing that the hostages were brought by several other hospitals while taking them to al-Shifra.

Which would seem to suggest treatment was not on the menu.

by Anonymousreply 266November 20, 2023 3:31 PM

R266, the hostages seem to be kept in different places in Gaza. It could be that these Hamas soldiers were told to take hostages to this particular hospital. Perhaps they were going to be kept there. Perhaps it was the only hospital that could immediately operate on a patient. It’s not clear.

by Anonymousreply 267November 20, 2023 4:12 PM

R265, it's accurate to say that they are complicit. They lie to the world, saying Hamas is not in the world. They help keep hostages in the hospital.

by Anonymousreply 268November 20, 2023 4:41 PM

R267, Hamas fighters raped, mutilated, burned and decapitated the men, women and children they found. Yes they took some of the wounded victims captive but do you seriously think that the health of the victims/hostages was the priority of Hamas terrorists when they got them back to Gaza?

You have seen the videos of the elderly man on the ground being kicked by celebrating Palestinians? The video of Shani Louk's body driven through Gaza on the back of a truck for men to spit on? The video of another pick up truck with a stripped body in the back with people running alongside beating his or her corpse with pieces of wood?

Bear in mind as well that the IDF captured multiple Hamas terrorists who have shared information under interrogation and will be sharing their instructions.

The hospitals are Hamas HQ and that's why hostages were taken there.

by Anonymousreply 269November 20, 2023 4:51 PM

R268 and it was likely under extreme duress which makes the word “complicit” bullshit.

I am as pro-Israel/Zionist as they come, but blaming Palestinian doctors working in a hospital under a brutal terrorist regime for “lying to the world” is a bit too much.

by Anonymousreply 270November 20, 2023 5:02 PM

Yeah, blaming the doctors is insane. If they don’t lie all they’ll just be killed, Hamas will get pretend doctors to lie and the patients will die. It’s not even self-preservation type of lie.

by Anonymousreply 271November 20, 2023 5:38 PM

What makes you think doctors wouldn't be sympathetic to Hamas's aims and "resistance against the occupation"?

I've seen plenty of Western doctors with Palestine flags in their Twitter bio defending the atrocities.

by Anonymousreply 272November 20, 2023 6:00 PM

[quote] I've seen plenty of Western doctors with Palestine flags in their Twitter bio defending the atrocities.

Go on show one example. With an outright defense of the Oct 7th attack.

by Anonymousreply 273November 20, 2023 6:07 PM

[quote]Bear in mind as well that the IDF captured multiple Hamas terrorists who have shared information under interrogation and will be sharing their instructions.

The IDF are also interrogating Hamas fighters detained inside Gaza who have knowledge of the infrastructure.

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by Anonymousreply 274November 20, 2023 6:28 PM

r273, is this who you were thinking of?

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by Anonymousreply 275November 20, 2023 11:37 PM

R275 she’s Palestinian. We were looking for Western.

by Anonymousreply 276November 20, 2023 11:59 PM

Something like this?

. . .

[quote]StopAntisemitism's messages regarding doctors have not been mentioning those who have expressed pro-Palestinian sentiment, but rather those who have seemingly spoken out specifically in support of Hamas.

. . .

[quote]One doctor documented by StopAntisemitism allegedly shared a photo from the film version of Oklahoma! after the Hamas attack on social media and quoted song lyrics from the musical in the caption: "Oh what a beautiful morninggg/oh what a beautiful dayyy!"

[quote]After sharing the doctor's post on October 18, StopAntisemitism reported last week that she had been terminated from her job.

more at link

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by Anonymousreply 277November 21, 2023 12:00 AM

r276, I don't think you understand "western". She's a doctor in Lenox Hill. She's western.

by Anonymousreply 278November 21, 2023 12:08 AM

R277 there’s no detail about the identities, and I think you’d be smarter not to presume that an account called “stopantisemitism” is going to be balanced in its descriptions,

No R278 she was born in Palestine and grew up in Qatar, she would absolutely not identify as western just because she worked there. If you worked in Dubai for a while would you describe yourself as middle eastern? Didn’t think so.

by Anonymousreply 279November 21, 2023 12:18 AM

If I worked in New York, I'd describe myself as western.

You are just too racist to understand it.

We still see you behind that sheet.

by Anonymousreply 280November 21, 2023 12:19 AM

R280 if you worked in Tokyo would you describe yourself as Asian?

by Anonymousreply 281November 21, 2023 12:20 AM

I'm so sorry I haven't found a "Western" doctor for you. But to tide you over, here's a professor in North Carolina with a European name. Professor Laura Mullen's resignation was followed by an author cancelling a visit.

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by Anonymousreply 282November 21, 2023 3:38 AM

[quote]A Wake Forest University professor has resigned after posting content on social media that defended Hamas’ violent terror attack against civilian music festival attendees in the early morning hours of October 7.

. . .

[quote] Mullen came under fire after she posted on X that she “could be tempted to shoot up your dance party,” signaling she empathized with the Hamas terrorists that killed hundreds at the festival during the October 7 mass attack in southern Israel.

more at link

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by Anonymousreply 283November 21, 2023 3:43 AM

[quote] I'm so sorry I haven't found a "Western" doctor for you.

Nobody forced you to say you’d seen all these ‘western doctors posting in support of the attacks’ R282, you did that all by yourself. I just asked you for an example, which you’ve failed to produce. The honest thing to do at this point would be to acknowledge your ‘mistake’ (I’m being kind), but I guess honesty isn’t your strong suit.

by Anonymousreply 284November 21, 2023 3:43 AM

[quote]Nobody forced you to say you’d seen all these ‘western doctors posting in support of the attack

I didn't. I saw this was in dispute, so I went looking. All the doctors I found had names that seemed to be either south Asian or Arabic. I figured that even if they were born and raised in a western country, you'd still quibble, so I kept looking.

by Anonymousreply 285November 21, 2023 4:24 AM

[quote] I've seen plenty of Western doctors with Palestine flags in their Twitter bio defending the atrocities.

^^ this was you R285 no?

by Anonymousreply 286November 21, 2023 4:25 AM


by Anonymousreply 287November 21, 2023 4:27 AM

Apologies for the mixup in that case R287, it’s not clear when someone else responds in that way. Wish there was an easier feature on here to tell than the blocking / unblocking thing. Anyway my point still stands.

by Anonymousreply 288November 21, 2023 4:33 AM

I'm not sure why it matters that they potentially weren't born in the West, R281. They (as named by @StopAntisemitism) are all now living and working and treating patients (many of them Jews) in America, and representing American medical education, practice, and ethics. If they are American citizens, then yes, they can call themselves Americans, and so would we obviously call them that. Obviously NO American is *ethnically* American unless they are indigenous. But an Arab American is as much an American as a Scotch-English-German American. They are WESTERN doctors.

by Anonymousreply 289November 21, 2023 5:18 AM

[quote] as named

??? The article you posted didn’t name anyone? Nobody that has been mentioned was born in America. Why are you stretching this hard?

by Anonymousreply 290November 21, 2023 7:41 AM

The Hamas troll has such a clear pattern of behaviour here.

1. Person posts "X has happened which depicts Hamas/Hamas sympathisers in a bad light"

2. Hamas troll claims "X never happened - where's the evidence?"

3. Person provides evidence of X happening

4. Hamas troll replies "But you've provided evidence of X and I'm asking for evidence of Y".

Over and over and over again.

by Anonymousreply 291November 21, 2023 8:24 AM

It's ok R292, people like the Hamas troll AND their endless posts here are being tracked through cookies and being monitored. That's one of the main reasons for the internet now, to monitor activity like his.

by Anonymousreply 292November 21, 2023 8:32 AM

R291 I’m sorry but that’s not true. The poster said that “ I've seen plenty of Western doctors with Palestine flags in their Twitter bio defending the atrocities.” And nobody has provided a single instance of that. It’s a very straightforward request. Posting an example of a Palestinian doctor doing that is not an example of a ‘western doctor’ doing so, no matter what way you spin it.

I’m also open to being proven wrong, but none of you seem to be able to do so sorry.

by Anonymousreply 293November 21, 2023 8:33 AM

This is currently on the BBC's rolling coverage of the Israel/Gaza page

[quote]Israel began attacking Gaza after Hamas fighters crossed the border on 7 October and went on to kill 1,200 Israelis while taking more than 200 others hostage

"Went on to kill"

For fuck's sake.

by Anonymousreply 294November 21, 2023 8:53 AM

[quote]Calla Mairead Walsh, a central figure in Boston's "Jew Mapping Project" was just arrested after vandalizing Elbeit, an Israeli owned business.

[quote]Walsh, along with two others (Bridget Irene Shergalis and Sophie Marika Ross), spray painted the building with red paint to mirror blood and smashed windows.

[quote]They were charged with riot, sabotage, mischief, trespassing, and disorderly conduct.

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by Anonymousreply 295November 21, 2023 7:57 PM

1. Calla Mairead Walsh looks like a dead eyed Nazi.

2. Calla Mairead Walsh needs to decolonise herself back to the Ireland

by Anonymousreply 296November 21, 2023 8:02 PM

R296, have you ever been to Boston? Trust me, she’s found her people.

by Anonymousreply 297November 21, 2023 8:29 PM

Saying something like that @ R283 is VERY fucked up.

by Anonymousreply 298November 21, 2023 8:39 PM
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by Anonymousreply 299November 21, 2023 9:31 PM

Apparently only 30 of the 40 child hostages can be accounted for.

by Anonymousreply 300November 21, 2023 9:37 PM

R293 If an Arab doctor was educated and practices in the West and is a legal citizen of said Western country, they are a WESTERN DOCTOR, you fuckwit. What—someone is only Western to you if they're white?

And if you want your evidence, feel free to visit the twitter account that has been provided to you, which details dozens and dozens of social media accounts of WESTERN DOCTORS sharing horrifically antisemitic sentiments and blatantly defending Hamas.

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by Anonymousreply 301November 21, 2023 10:30 PM

Like I've been saying here, I'll believe it when I see it that hostages will be released. I don't believe most of them are still alive.

by Anonymousreply 302November 22, 2023 2:14 AM

Tbh R302 I don’t think Israel cares if they’re killing the hostages in their bombing campaign. I don’t think getting hostages back alive is their priority.

by Anonymousreply 303November 22, 2023 2:18 AM

R302, we don't know at this point. The negotiations over the the release of hostages went on for days and didn't buy Hamas any extra time, the war is still going on. It's possible that they can, in fact, produce a number of hostages, since they expect to get Palestinian prisoners, mostly women and children, in return. Under the terms of the agreement as announced today, Hamas can earn another pause in the fighting for every additional ten hostages they release.

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by Anonymousreply 304November 22, 2023 2:38 AM

Totally agree with R303. Hostages are clearly very much last in their minds. This was reported on PBS NewsHour that the far right members of the Israeli government do not want to exchange prisoners for hostages and will not agree to a ceasefire. PBS reported that all of the prisoners will be women and children.

by Anonymousreply 305November 22, 2023 2:48 AM

Here’s some guy that used to work at the state department under Obama, saying disgusting things to a good vendor in NYC.

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by Anonymousreply 306November 22, 2023 2:51 AM


by Anonymousreply 307November 22, 2023 2:52 AM

To be fair we don’t know what happened before the video was recorded

by Anonymousreply 308November 22, 2023 3:01 AM

R308 so you’ll only talk about what isn’t on camera, rather than what is. wtf is with you people lol you’re so broken.

by Anonymousreply 309November 22, 2023 3:05 AM


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by Anonymousreply 310November 22, 2023 3:08 AM

[quote]Tbh [R302] I don’t think Israel cares if they’re killing the hostages in their bombing campaign. I don’t think getting hostages back alive is their priority.

FFS r303 if dead most were killed by their completely murder-obsessed Hamas captors. Not by bombs.

Israel has been dealing with these loons for years, and likely knows that large numbers of the hostages aren't still alive. It's not a priority to make deals for dead bodies.

by Anonymousreply 311November 22, 2023 3:11 AM

[quote] if dead most were killed by their completely murder-obsessed Hamas captors. Not by bombs.

Do you know that for certain R311? I’m not saying Hamas hasn’t murdered any (altho it seems anti-intuitive to take hostages and then kill them), but it seems plausible that in their bombing campaign that has killed over 11,000 people (most civilians) that they would have killed some hostages along the way.

by Anonymousreply 312November 22, 2023 3:15 AM

*israel would have I mean.

by Anonymousreply 313November 22, 2023 3:16 AM

First off: 11,000 people killed? Says who? The Hamas-backed leadership in Gaza? I'd need to see an objective source for that number, such as WHO or the Red Cross....if you're not going to believe exaggerated claims by the IDF about some of the stuff they are uncovering, then don't believe the Hamas propaganda machine either.

Sure some bombs may have killed hostages. But its far more apparent Hamas would murder them, since that's obviously what they're about - look up Noa Marciano. Not killed by a bomb.

These are mentally ill barbarians on killing sprees, not intelligent, sharp-minded tacticians who would see the value in keeping some of these people alive for future bargaining. You can't ascribe "normal" motives to them.

by Anonymousreply 314November 22, 2023 3:25 AM

That Stuart Seldowitz person in R306's link is absolutely disgusting. Seems like there's plenty of hatred from both sides and all of it should be shown and denounced.

Apparently Seldowitz was a senior political officer in the U.S. State Department’s Office of Israel and Palestinian Affairs from 1999 to 2003 and during the Obama presidency. That raises a lot of questions about what sort of integrity the U.S. State Department’s Office of Israel and Palestinian Affairs would even have when people like that work there and are involved with the situation.

by Anonymousreply 315November 22, 2023 3:39 AM

If you haven’t worked in government, this may be a surprise. But, because of veterans and other preferences as well as the near impossibility of firing anyone, you will find plenty of ineffectual but opinionated govvies. They can be abusive or handsy or lazy in ways you can’t even begin to imagine. However, the leaders are the only people doing anything that makes much difference so these crazies are rarely able to have much impact. The “leaders” tend to be risk averse, diplomatic, and obedient.

by Anonymousreply 316November 22, 2023 3:44 AM

R314 the only source is Palestinian health authority bc they’re the only source that could possibly determine the number right now, there are no other bodies in Palestine in sufficient numbers to count the dead. However you can see from the attached link that the Palestinian authorities have historical precedence for reporting death tolls accurately, there is no meaningful or contextual reason to doubt them.

[quote] Sure some bombs may have killed hostages.

Glad you’re able to acknowledge this possibility, so many pro Israel types are refusing the most basic reasonability.

[quote] These are mentally ill barbarians on killing sprees, not intelligent, sharp-minded tacticians who would see the value in keeping some of these people alive for future bargaining.

I don’t think this is true either, they managed to organize the Oct 7th attack while evading one of the most sophisticated and well financed intelligence agencies in the world. And they’ve just agreed to release hostages for a 4 day ceasefire (I think I saw an update on that a few minutes ago) so what you say doesn’t bear water.

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by Anonymousreply 317November 22, 2023 3:45 AM

[quote]I'd need to see an objective source for that number, such as WHO or the Red Cross....

The WHO, Red Cross, UN and Médecins Sans Frontières have all reported the same numbers R314. There are a lot of their Western medical and support staff inside Gaza. We can all see it too.

by Anonymousreply 318November 22, 2023 3:52 AM

Inside of Gaza, these "reliable" sources are forced to tow the Hamas line or else.

by Anonymousreply 319November 22, 2023 5:06 AM

[quote][R314] the only source is Palestinian health authority

Palestinian Health Authority = HAMAS. They are not a realistic source.

As we say here often, "Link Please" r318. Where have the Red Cross and MSF reported these numbers?

[quote]I don’t think this is true either, they managed to organize the Oct 7th attack while evading one of the most sophisticated and well financed intelligence agencies in the world. And they’ve just agreed to release hostages for a 4 day ceasefire...so what you say doesn’t bear water.

Oh FFS. "Doesn't bear water" - these bastards decapitated babies, put them alive in ovens to COOK; bombed homes with thermobaric bombs; gang-raped young women while shooting them in the head - after cutting off their breasts for trophies; and gleefully shot/murdered many women and children while livestreaming it. They love CRUELTY and total mayhem, they are not for any "homeland" or for their "people". They are not "soldiers" representing common Palestinians. They are not sophisticated in the least, unless you believe John Wayne Gacy or Jeffrey Dahmer were "sophisticated" - if dumbass Netanyahu wasn't such a scumbucket, he and his minions would have never believed promises from Hamas leaders over the past few years and would have had a clue. They believed what they wanted to, like the corrupt idiots they are, and their people paid the price.

They agreed to a ceasefire for hostages but again, dead or alive? I'll believe there are living hostages when I see them.

by Anonymousreply 320November 22, 2023 5:15 AM

[quote] these bastards decapitated babies, put them alive in ovens to COOK; bombed homes with thermobaric bombs; gang-raped young women while shooting them in the head - after cutting off their breasts for trophies; and gleefully shot/murdered many women and children while livestreaming it.

Since you’ve asked for a source yourself (I’m not the commenter you requested one from btw) can you provide a source for these above occurances? I believe they’ve all been seen to not have happened. Not disputing that they didn’t kill a lot of innocent civilians but not in the cartoonish way you’ve described.

by Anonymousreply 321November 22, 2023 5:20 AM

Stop acting stupid and fuck off r321, go to Telegram and Twitter and view the videos yourself. They gleefully live-streamed everything they did. They were live on Telegram for the entire spree. The burned babies were documented by the medical authorities who had to id the bodies. The gang rape/killing has been viewed and described by many - I won't seek it out myself.

I just watched a video last night on the Fail (of all places), where the psychotic Hamas gunman chased several young festival attendees across a field. He caught up to two young women, shooting both at point blank range in the head - it's clear as day. I wish I could unsee it but I can't. Go look it up, it's there.

by Anonymousreply 322November 22, 2023 5:53 AM

[quote]As we say here often, "Link Please" R318.

R320 - easy to find the information you need to be educated with facts from reputable sources yourself. It's all over their websites and senior representatives from all those bodies are regularly interviewed about the situation on the news.

PBS NewsHour reported that around 50% of the homes and infrastructure in Gaza are completely destroyed and look like a "moonscape". Several people from various media channels have used that word moonscape. There has been no proof supplied by Israel of Hamas headquarters or bases in the hospital yet. The claim is also unable to be independently verified because Israel will not allow entry to anyone into Gaza.

I want Hamas to give all the hostages back today and for Israel to stop flattening them without mercy. Then an ironclad two state solution decided by the UN and forced upon them so this ends. Build huge walls like in World War Z if required. Lots of money and goodwill to rebuild. The rest of the western world would be very generous financially and supportive and helpful to everyone in the vicinity who were prepared to end this and just start living in safety and pursue happiness. I know it's never gonna happen but that's what I'd like to see.

by Anonymousreply 323November 22, 2023 6:02 AM

Well R322, since you won’t provide any sources then I’m gonna provide at least one which undermines one of your hysterical claims. Since you won’t provide anything to prove any of your other examples then we can conclude that they are all without supportive evidence and you just…..made them up.

Article below is from the Jerusalem post and basically acknowledges that there is no proof of the “baby placed in oven by Hamas” claim.

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by Anonymousreply 324November 22, 2023 6:09 AM

R308 here’s what happened before.

[quote] if we killed 4000 Palestinian kids, it wasn’t enough”

And this guy was working in the state department?!?!?

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by Anonymousreply 325November 22, 2023 6:48 AM

[quote]Not disputing that

Bullshit. You and your ilk have been in here and all over social media quarreling and nitpicking every claim. You don't seem to realize your credibility is now shot. There was an organized push to argue there was no evidence Israeli women had raped, even though one of the evil freaks in Gaza posted video parading a woman with bloodied trousers and another freak posted video of a woman wearing only undergarments, with legs bent in unnatural positions, and men spitting on her. It's an organized campaign to distract people from the violence committed by Hamas terrorists. Stop, just stop.

by Anonymousreply 326November 22, 2023 7:21 AM

R326 I said I’m not disputing that Hamas murdered many innocent civilians, including children. It’s a terrible war crime. However, words matter, and when you make bizarre claims about things that have been discovered to be inconclusive, or not true, then it’s not ‘nitpicking’ when someone points that out. It’s important to stick to facts, and not state things that have been since disproven as if they are fact. You said Hamas placed babies in ovens with certainty, and I was pointing out that you’re incorrect to say that, would you accept that?

[quote] You don't seem to realize your credibility is now shot.

You didn’t just say this with a straight face 😭😭😭

by Anonymousreply 327November 22, 2023 7:47 AM

Your quibbling is a strategy. That strategy has been employed by others here and on social media. Stop, please. Stop bothering people.

by Anonymousreply 328November 22, 2023 7:51 AM

Just block the "Where's the evidence" troll

by Anonymousreply 329November 22, 2023 8:02 AM

R329 so you can keep making baseless and debunked claims to excuse a genocide? Good job ;)

by Anonymousreply 330November 22, 2023 8:06 AM

Crazy Italian woman racially abused a Jewish man last night when he challenged her ripping down posters of hostages.

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by Anonymousreply 331November 22, 2023 8:17 AM

In a coincidence of Dierdre Chambers proportions Anna Laurini is also a 9/11 truther, vaccine truther and Zelenskyy truther.

Her poor dog.

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by Anonymousreply 332November 22, 2023 8:19 AM

R330 your use of the word genocide is your first baseless claim. Immediately ignored.

by Anonymousreply 333November 22, 2023 11:08 AM

[quote] so you can keep making baseless and debunked claims to excuse a genocide?

Israel is not committing genocide in Gaza. They are committed to a harsh bombing campaign, being done in retaliation for murders of their people, that can be argued as counter-productive in the long run. They are harming many innocent Palestinians who aren't into Hamas. BUT - they are not committed to eliminating the entire tribe of people in Gaza. Not when they've given them aid, work visas, and water and electricity for years. Treated them unfairly, yes. Genocide? NO.

Hamas, and many in the Palestinian leadership (note I didn't say "all Palestinians") have as their mantra the complete destruction of Israel and all Jews/infidels in their region. It's their raison d'etre, the genocide of all Israelis. A goal they'll never meet, and waste metrics tons of time/money on pursuing over decades, but still it's their goal. Even if granted their own state (which I support), it will still be their PRIMARY GOAL: eliminate their neighbors, the Jews. They'll die, and kill everyone around them, trying.

Who are the genocidal maniacs in that region? Stop mis-using the term.

by Anonymousreply 334November 22, 2023 8:52 PM

R334 have a read.

[quote] BUT - they are not committed to eliminating the entire tribe of people in Gaza.

They are trying to move them out of Gaza wholesale and destroy it so they will not return. That satisfies one of the conditions.

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by Anonymousreply 335November 22, 2023 9:10 PM

The instructions for IDF soldiers taking custody of the children and returning them to Israel is so upsetting.

They're not allowed to answer questions from the children about what happened to their family members.

When Hamas break the hostage release deal it's going to become unbearable. More psychological torture.

by Anonymousreply 336November 22, 2023 9:17 PM

I would imagine most of the children saw what happened to their families. It’s gonna be a generation of Dexters.

by Anonymousreply 337November 22, 2023 9:21 PM

If you literally go around shouting “From the River to the Sea” and I beat you to it, who am I to blame?

It’s like me standing with a Glock watching you load your shot gun talking about, “As soon as I get this thing loaded, I’mma blow your head off!” You stand up aim, cock the trigger, but I kill you first.

by Anonymousreply 338November 22, 2023 9:28 PM

R335, that article is not the slam dunk you seem to think it is. It’s a nuanced view of how to frame what Israel is doing and includes this;

[quote] On that score, most experts, with a couple of prominent exceptions, say that it is not possible to prove Israel’s actions meet that legal threshold right now. “I don’t think it’s genocidal yet. I think it can easily be,” said Ernesto Verdeja, an associate professor of political science and peace studies at the University of Notre Dame. “At this point, it’s a little hard to put all the pieces together.”

Frankly, people who are ratcheting up an already tense situation by throwing around “murder” and “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” should look in the mirror. IDF believes they are trying to protect civilians, and the world responds with a tone that has not been used for conflicts with more brutality. That discourages any restraint, which could lead to more loss of life.

But TikTok anti-colonialists don’t care much about lives. It’s all about the fevered pitch and the followers.

by Anonymousreply 339November 22, 2023 9:50 PM

Israel knows they are dealing with innately genocidal muslims, a lesson the rest of the world should learn, they don't negotiate. Kick fucking ass first. That's all islamic dogs understand. Given how the gazans treated the dead bodies of Jews, God knows what they did with those kidnapped alive.

Israel didn't kill 11,000 gazans, hamas did. allah fucking snackbar!

by Anonymousreply 340November 22, 2023 10:11 PM

[quote] IDF believes they are trying to protect civilians

No, they don’t. If they did, they wouldn’t be killing so many civilians. They know that their indiscriminate bombing campaign is killing thousands of civilians, if they cared about protecting civilians they wouldn’t be employing the tactics that they are.

Also weird quote for you to pull, which basically says that this Israeli actions in Gaza are verging on genocide, since you’re trying to disprove it’s anything like that.

by Anonymousreply 341November 22, 2023 11:05 PM

How do you know what the military objectives are? There is certainly evidence of civilians being warned with leaflets and texts before a bombing. Whether or not it is fully true, this is what both Palestinians and Israelis say in interviews.

Verging on genocide is exactly the reason i pulled the quote. Irresponsible and unsubstantiated claims like yours are exactly the problem. If Israel feels they are protecting civilians, and are accused of genocide by the world for defending themselves (whether you agree or not), that is how things can really get out of hand.

Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas leader who conceived the Oct. 7 attacks, was in an Israeli prison. He was diagnosed with a brain tumor that Israeli doctors removed to save his life. That doesn’t exactly square with the Israeli savage characterization.

by Anonymousreply 342November 22, 2023 11:26 PM

If the military objectives were to protect civilians then they wouldn’t have killed so many. It’s self evident.

[quote] There is certainly evidence of civilians being warned with leaflets and texts before a bombing.

Yes I hear sometimes they get a full 5 minute warning 🥰 keep your phones charged Palestinians!

[quote] Raz Segal, the program director of genocide studies at Stockton University, concretely says it is a “textbook case of genocide.” Segal believes that Israeli forces are completing three genocidal acts, including, “killing, causing serious bodily harm, and measures calculated to bring about the destruction of the group.” He points to the mass levels of destruction and total siege of basic necessities—like water, food, fuel, and medical supplies—as evidence.

“Irresponsible and unsubstantiated”???

[quote] Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas leader who conceived the Oct. 7 attacks, was in an Israeli prison. He was diagnosed with a brain tumor that Israeli doctors removed to save his life. That doesn’t exactly square with the Israeli savage characterization.

And the released hostages described their medical treatment while being held by Hamas. Both sides can be compassionate medically I guess.

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by Anonymousreply 343November 22, 2023 11:39 PM

You “hear sometimes they get a full 5 minute warning,” r343? Yeah, that is exactly what I mean by irresponsible and unsubstantiated. Try two hours - which you can read about in the link below.

And that’s the problem. Rather than recognizing Israel’s attempts to protect civilians at all, you dismiss them based on your own say so and ratchet it up to “genocide.” Which raises the temperature and makes it harder for the grown ups in the room to save lives.

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by Anonymousreply 344November 23, 2023 12:10 AM

[quote] and the caller said that everyone in the house must leave within five minutes, because it was going to be bombed.

And often there are no warnings. If someone bombed your house and gave you a 10 minute warning would you look on them as benevolent R344?

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by Anonymousreply 345November 23, 2023 12:44 AM

It would depend on what the leader of my country had done R345. People can hold two thoughts in their heads at one time.

by Anonymousreply 346November 23, 2023 12:49 AM

I mean if the US President sent methed-up teenagers to Quebec to kill, rape, kidnap and torture everyone they could and vowed to keep doing it until Canada was destroyed, I could think “sucks to be me” as my home was about to be bombed and “those Canadians sure are nice to give a ten minute warning” at the same time.

by Anonymousreply 347November 23, 2023 1:01 AM

R347 you absolute lying nutjob

by Anonymousreply 348November 23, 2023 1:36 AM

Also? R343, the two medical examples are not comparable. To a degree that is shocking you even suggest they are.

One is a convicted terrorist strong four consecutive life terms with the nick name of “Butcher from Khan Younis.” Serving his term, he studied and plotted against Israel. They discovered a brain tumor and gave him life saving surgery. He was exchanged (in a ratio of 1000 Hamas to 1 Israeli soldier) and then went back to plot and execute the October 7 massacres.

In contrast, the released hostages received medical treatment from the people who actually caused the injuries. They spoke under duress, since their families and other hostages were still in danger. Plus? These were grandmothers not people who earned nicknames for their killling.

And you think these are the same, just as you carp away at Israel for not giving sufficient warnings (at considerable military and financial cost).

I’m not even especially pro-Israel other than I think they have a right to their country. But that is the sticking point for Palestinians. They would rather cling to the mirage of reclaiming their great grandparents land than actually build a country. Which -despite having received more per capita aid than any other country (largest single donor is the hated US) - they have not done.

by Anonymousreply 349November 23, 2023 1:41 AM

Everything R341 says is incorrect. He's the #1 Hamas defender on Datalounge. He'll deny it. Maybe at first he wasn't. But he has spent week after week apologizing, rationalizing away their actions. There is no way he can't be now.

by Anonymousreply 350November 23, 2023 8:40 AM

R350 do you see him on any other threads if you block and stalk? When I do it, only posts from these threads come up, but that could be because we don’t generally comment on the same threads.

by Anonymousreply 351November 23, 2023 10:52 AM

These ragheads should just take their punishment like good Americans. How dare they complain?

by Anonymousreply 352November 23, 2023 11:01 AM

[quote] do you see him on any other threads if you block and stalk? When I do it, only posts from these threads come up, but that could be because we don’t generally comment on the same threads.

Such normal, non-loserish behavior you exhibit.

by Anonymousreply 353November 23, 2023 6:28 PM

Agreed, I’m an abnormal loser. But luckily I’m also not twelve so not particularly concerned about either. Happy Thanksgiving R353. I appreciate you.

by Anonymousreply 354November 23, 2023 7:00 PM

[quote]They would rather cling to the mirage of reclaiming their great grandparents land than actually build a country. Which -despite having received more per capita aid than any other country (largest single donor is the hated US) - they have not done.

This is an issue the pro-Hamas crowd won't address. Billions in aid, and it was either funneled to corrupt Hamas billionaires in Qatar, used to buy weapons and rockets to attack Israel, or used for other terrorist activities. How much of it was used to help everyday Palestinians? I'd really like to see numbers on that.

Gaza has miles of gorgeous pristine beaches, and coastline with rich fisheries. Those are just two lucrative, job-producing industries they could leverage, at least for some of their people. They've never made much of either - will they do so once they receive independent statehood? That's where the rubber will meet the road, in terms of how serious they are about building their own existence.

by Anonymousreply 355November 23, 2023 10:26 PM

Reports that the Thai hostages have all been released.

by Anonymousreply 356November 23, 2023 10:28 PM

^ that’s great news because I’m starving and only have $12 in my pocket.

by Anonymousreply 357November 24, 2023 12:16 AM

First it was defending Hamas and now it's defending Ireland. I think ConcernedEuropean is back without signing in as such.

by Anonymousreply 358November 24, 2023 1:00 AM

[bold]Inside Hamas’s sprawling financial empire[/bold]

Why Israel is powerless to dismantle the group’s finances

Viewed from one of Istanbul’s glitziest restaurants, the Bosporus looks sublime. The venue is a favoured haunt of mandarins, businessmen, minor celebrities—and Hamas’s financiers. A man on whom America has imposed sanctions for funding the Islamist group describes his various board seats. “It’s ridiculous,” he says of America’s accusation. Eventually, though, comes an admission. “Now, if you’re asking what our employees do with their own money, why would I know?”

Hamas has three sources of power: its physical force inside Gaza, the reach of its ideas and its income. Since Hamas’s attacks on October 7th, Israel has killed more than 12,000 Palestinians in Gaza in seeking to wreck the first. But Israel’s declared goal of destroying Hamas for good requires its financial base to be dismantled, too. Very little of this sits in Gaza. Instead, it is overseas in friendly countries. Furnished with money-launderers, mining companies and much else, Hamas’s financial empire is reckoned to bring in more than $1bn a year. Having been painstakingly crafted to avoid Western sanctions, it may be out of reach for Israel and its allies.

more at link

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by Anonymousreply 359November 24, 2023 4:55 AM

This is the unpaywalled version of the article at R359. Hamas earns about $750 million a year from sources outside Gaza, and its political power and money cannot be affected the war.

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by Anonymousreply 360November 24, 2023 2:48 PM

An archived version of R359. Hamas earns about $750 million a year from sources outside Gaza.

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by Anonymousreply 361November 24, 2023 2:49 PM

The Munder family have been free.

Grandmother, mother and 9 year old Ohad. His father was worried he didn't his glasses with him so wouldn't be able to see properly without them, but then he felt that would be a blessing as he wouldn't have been able to see all the bloodied and butchered corpses when he was kidnapped from the kibbutz.

by Anonymousreply 362November 24, 2023 6:02 PM

Ohad has his glasses

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by Anonymousreply 363November 24, 2023 6:23 PM

Thailand should have declared war on Hamas for taking its citizens.

by Anonymousreply 364November 24, 2023 7:23 PM

Ohad reunited with his dad

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by Anonymousreply 365November 25, 2023 11:18 AM

So should've the US and the many other countries whose citizens were murdered, raped and kidnapped, R364.

by Anonymousreply 366November 25, 2023 12:10 PM

I totally agree, R364.

by Anonymousreply 367November 26, 2023 1:19 PM

R366, the US can’t rush into war with an organization that has the backing of a nation with nuclear weapons and is crazy enough to use them.

What the US HAS done and continues to do, to limit its own casualties, is supply allies with endless supplies and hi-tech military grade weapons so that they can successfully execute a war.

by Anonymousreply 368November 26, 2023 1:34 PM

I'm watching David Muir's news and he just reported that Israeli troops have the Hamas leader surrounded in a bunker in Gaza.

by Anonymousreply 369December 6, 2023 11:46 PM

R369, that could be, although they claimed he was in a bunker under that hospital too.

by Anonymousreply 370December 6, 2023 11:57 PM

R369 I just hope they get his evil ass.

by Anonymousreply 371December 7, 2023 12:15 AM

If that catch Yahweh Sinwar alive, his trial could be quite an event and possible game changer. Eichmann’s trial in Jerusalem was a turning point in awareness and public opinion about the Holocaust. The real deal Sinwar, who killed a commander for having gay sex, is unlikely to inspire the anti-colonialist TikTok crowd.

by Anonymousreply 372December 7, 2023 1:13 AM

Yahyeh! Autocorrect has a weird sense of irony.

by Anonymousreply 373December 7, 2023 1:20 AM

R372, everything I have read suggests that Sinwar would revel in such an event. When he was arrested for multiple murders, decades ago, he confessed to everything, in detail. Guilt means nothing to him. A trial would, indeed, be amazing.

by Anonymousreply 374December 7, 2023 1:35 AM

IDF is being surprisingly efficient, it's crazy how much progress they make each day. My prediction of no more Hamas by Christmas might actually turn out to be true.

by Anonymousreply 375December 7, 2023 11:16 AM

Assuming they really are this efficient, I wonder how many spies they have on the inside.

by Anonymousreply 376December 7, 2023 11:50 AM

[quote]The real deal Sinwar, who killed a commander for having gay sex, is unlikely to inspire the anti-colonialist TikTok crowd.

Oppressed people do oppressive things. It's not their fault!

by Anonymousreply 377December 7, 2023 12:10 PM

R369, the “we have Sinwar surrounded” claim came from Netanyahu, and you’ll be shocked to hear that it was a bit of an exaggeration. The IDF walked it back later, saying only that they believed he was in the tunnel system.

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by Anonymousreply 378December 7, 2023 7:11 PM

Weren't they suppose to flood the tunnels with salt water? I thought they should have done that from the beginning, even if the poor hostages were down there.

by Anonymousreply 379December 7, 2023 7:15 PM

R379, as I understand it, Gaza itself is above sea level, so you’d have to install pumps to pump the water uphill first, and then into the tunnels. The IDF has brought equipment for this, but it requires some engineering work. There’s also no guarantee that the tunnels are completely connected.

by Anonymousreply 380December 7, 2023 7:42 PM

[quote]Weren't they suppose to flood the tunnels with salt water? I thought they should have done that from the beginning, even if the poor hostages were down there.

They're flooding Gaza City's tunnels. Whether they go further south is another question.

by Anonymousreply 381December 7, 2023 7:46 PM

Too little too late?

An interesting article by a reporter on CNN who questions her coverage of Hamas for over a decade. The biggest takeaway is her regret calling Hamas an Opposition Group instead of the Terrorist Organization that they are. She states that reporters pull punches with Hamas to maintain access to big stories and don't thoroughly question the facts that they present possibly giving them a dangerous air of legitimacy. She also points out that Hamas has no desire for Peace with Israel because according to them the Koran forbids it.

[quote]Many of the questions that now reverberate in my head have no easy answers, but I can say that the ultimate goal for too many of us in the media was to ensure continued access to the big story, not to consider whether the people we were dealing with were good actors or reliable sources. Though it’s important for readers and viewers to hear Palestinian voices as well as those of Israelis, treating Hamas like a legitimate government was perhaps the worst of bothsidesism.

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by Anonymousreply 382December 8, 2023 3:23 PM
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