Would it have been possible for Jews to set up a Jewish state in Europe after WWII?

Why Europe? The US is pretty big, you could have given them a stretch of land in New Mexico and you'd barely noticed them. The Mormons have their own state to themselves, don't they?

Anyplace given would have required displacement of peoples, or true democracy including freedom of religion and demographic mixes. That's not what the Jews wanted.

It is certainly true that everything that's happened with Israel/Palestine is the direct result of the way WWII was settled.

I blame the UK. They were masterful colonizers, but relinquishing their colonies is where they proved themselves abject failures. Kashmir, Birma, the mandate, all messes on account of how the UK governance was released

Let them have Florida. Make Boca the capital.

They should have let them have Germany.

I think Morgenthau wanted to do that with Germany. There has always been a Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria, even after the diaspora. Jews have always thought of the region as their homeland.

East Prussia? It was partitioned between the USSR and Poland and Im not sure the Jews would have wanted to live in a former German land and under communism.

Where were the hundred and thousands of Jews expelled from North Africa and the middle east meant to go?

Israel Palestine was a fix in the way that India/Pakistan was a fix.

Just keep them out of Argentina.

20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs, r2.

How about Rhode Island?

Hamtramck, Michigan.

What could possibly go wrong?

R8 I’m saying this hypothetically and assuming that a Jewish state in East Prussia wouldn’t have been communist.

r14 No way Stalin would have ever gone for it. No land the Soviets overran was allowed to not be communist except for parts of Austria and West Berlin.

If only Jerusalem didn't exist, or a man-made Jewish or Muslim religion at all for that matter, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Humans killing humans called for by some god or allah. What a farce. And what a failure of humankind.

I know what the history books say, but it's always struck me that the reasonable place for establishing a Jewish state would have been annexed land from Germany.

The losers of wars have ALWAYS ceded territories to the winners. However, I get that the huge burden put on Germany after WWI was a huge driver to WWII happening, so can see why everyone would have been hesitant to create the foundation for yet another war.

R15 Maybe, maybe not. The Soviet Union generally did not allow citizens to leave, but they did make an exception for Jews, although it was hard. Communist Romania also allowed Jews to leave. It’s not a huge stretch to consider that the Soviet Union may possibly have allowed this to happen.

Near the end of World War two the U.S government was seriosly considering having the Jewish survivors of the holocaust settle in Alaska which at that time was quite still a frontier.

There were pogroms in Poland after the War ended. The Polish population was violently anti-semetic.

Germany gave up a great deal of land. East Prussia and a good deal of Eastern Germany went to Poland, a good deal of Eastern Poland went to the Soviet Union. The Allies needed whatever land Germany had left to be productive as quickly as possible, because no one wanted to pay to feed Germans for any length of time. Plus, the Jews didn't really want to stay in Germany.

Letting in Jewish refugees was completely unpopular in the US in 1945 (sound familiar?).

Europe was practically destroyed after WWII.

And what would that have done for Mizrahi or Ethiopian Jews?

There was talk about a partitioning of Uganda.

Zionism and the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine preceded both the UN and World War II with the Balfour Declaration in 1922, which the US signed. It’s not like Jews just airdropped into Palestine in after the war.

Here, read this, learn something:

In a nutshell, no.

Before WWII (and Germany's "Final Solution") there was no way Jews were going to have their own homeland/state/nation anywhere. Jews were and are a minority (and a very small minority) within the Earth's population. And they always will be.

Zionism, Balfour Declaration be damned. That was just window dressing. The Brits were almost as anti-semitic as Germany. With France a close third (the US was/is pretty anti-Jewish as well).

Even destitute after WWII, European nations would never agree to ceding territory for a Jewish state in their midst.

It was the Holocaust that gave the guilt-riddled West the opportunity to create a "Jewish" state (far from their territory too boot!). and right where 'God' said the Jews should live. How convenient! A nation created within Biblical borders - yea, that's reality.

And the West's power and control of world economics was enough to override/ignore/dismiss the 100% veto vote by Arab states at the United Nations. Israel was created in 1948 and the Arab world had to just lump it as far as the USA and the UN (with many war ravaged nations beholden to America) were concerned.

The region was then supported and armed by the USA and the USSR. All Arab-led wars go back to who was supplying weapons? Who had better trained and equipped armies?

We all know the answer; Israel, armed by the USA. And today, decades after its creation? They are going to unleash hell on those in Gaza.

It was always part of the Jewish collective psyche that someday they would all return to Palestine to recreate Israel as a homeland.

No western country wanted the Jewish refugees. There was a tremendous amount of antisemitism throughout the western democracies (prior to and even after WWII), which is one of the reasons Hitler was able to do what he did. Everyone was quite willing to ignore the signs of what was happening.

It was only after the war when people were forced to acknowledge what when on in the concentration camps that they were shamed into doing something about it. And what better way to solve the problem than to give the Jews the thing they most wanted -- even if that meant displacing a bunch of Arabs; because, after all, one piece of desert is the same as any other to a bunch of nomads.

So now we are all paying for this.

No.

Michael Chabon wrote a novel about this - with the U.S. donating the Alaska panhandle.

Germany was a stupid idea. German cities were in ruins and millions of ethnic Germans were being driven from Poland, Checkoslavokia and Hungry back into Germany. I think also eventually Germans would have resented a Jewish state in Germany, which would have caused lots of problems. I don't think Jews wanted anything to do with Germany or Europe by 1945.

With their homeland being indisputably in Palestine, why would they need a second homeland in Europe?

Any serious consideration given to extending the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Russia back then? Perhaps if the Allies had worked to support it economically?

[quote] Article 65 of the Constitution of Russia provides that the JAO is Russia's only autonomous oblast. It is one of two officially Jewish jurisdictions in the world, the other being Israel

[quote] They are going to unleash hell on those in Gaza.

Good.

[quote]Near the end of World War two the U.S government was seriosly considering having the Jewish survivors of the holocaust settle in Alaska which at that time was quite still a frontier.

And they could see the shtetls from their house!

Long as I live, I will NEVER understand anti-semitism. It makes no sense to me.

R35 I’m sure Europe is thinking the same thing now. They had a huge population of highly intelligent people: doctors, scientists, architects, engineers. Also musicians, singers, dancers, and other entertainers. After World War II, most of the remaining Jews left, and the Muslims came rolling in. Look what they have now: brutal, violent welfare queens.

r16: "If only .... a man-made Jewish or Muslim religion [didn't exist] at all for that matter, we wouldn't be in this mess."

lol

Madagascar was under consideration as a Jewish homeland until the powers that be acknowledged that it was somebody else's homeland. The Soviet Union also had a Jewish Autonomous Republic in Siberia. The concept that every people are entitled to a homeland which they left hundred or thousand of yeas ago just doesn't work. Should all the Turks leave Anatolia? should the Tatars return to Crimea? Should Europeans leave the Americas and reclaim ancestral lands in Europe? why are the Jews allowed to reclaim Palestine?

I always thought it was a crazy idea to create a land for Jews surrounded by Muslims.

An Oblast in Russia sounds like a good plan.

Also: Surprised to see Russia siding with Palestina. I thought they were always chummy with the Israelis?

[quote]Also: Surprised to see Russia siding with Palestina. I thought they were always chummy with the Israelis?

No, during the Cold War, the USSR armed the Arab states, e.g., the Syrian Air Force flew MiGs.

Jewlandia

They should all move to Mexico where the drug cartels are wrecking misery and then the Jewish settlers could go all Mossad on the cartels. It's arid enough to feel like Israel. Once they kick the drug lords to the curb they could build a huge theme park with wailing walls and little towns of Bethlehem and Dome of the Rock etc.

R40 thank you, I didn’t know that

[quote] Madagascar was under consideration as a Jewish homeland until the powers that be acknowledged that it was somebody else's homeland

So was Palestine.

r4 The Jews homeland of course Mr Himmler.

I assume that the Palestinians want the Jews to leave, but where would they go at this point?

Sainsbury's, Rose

This:

[quote] No western country wanted the Jewish refugees. There was a tremendous amount of antisemitism throughout the western democracies (prior to and even after WWII), which is one of the reasons Hitler was able to do what he did. Everyone was quite willing to ignore the signs of what was happening.

NO ONE WANTED THEM. The Jews came from Israel and every country wanted them to go back to Israel.

[quote]I assume that the Palestinians want the Jews to leave, but where would they go at this point?

I hear Del Boca Vista is nice.

So Israel was recreated out of the guilt (rightfully so) of the Western powers and their failure to save Jewish refugees from certain death. So, even if the Israeli government is in the wrong (they have been, but not in this situation) they co-sign whatever they do?

What about Sheldon Cooper's idea for a state in the Chihuahuan desert?

R36, yes, they fucked that up, didn't they? Never could figure out what their deal with Jews was.

What about that little bit of Russia in Europe? Kaliningrad I think it's called? Or would it be too near the Shoah?

[quote] It is certainly true that everything that's happened with Israel/Palestine is the direct result of the way WWII was settled.

Untrue. Zionism was well underway in Palestine for decades before WWII. Naturally WWII had a huge effect on western sympathies for the Zionist cause.

Here’s an interesting fact. In the late 30s, there was a meeting to discuss getting news out of Europe, to places like America and China. The Zionists refused to help and participate unless all the news were sent from Europe to Palestine.

Ben-Gurion wrote about it in his diary. He said, “it’s better for half of Europe's (Jewish) children to die than for them to go anywhere other than Israel.”

Another interesting fact: the British were in control of Palestine until the late 40s. The Zionist gangs there, Irgun and the stern gang, were terrorists, and abducted and murdered Britons in Palestine.

^^^ news = Jews. Interesting autocorrect.

R53 that’s what I mentioned earlier. At the end of World War II, East Prussia was split in half. The northern half was given to the Soviet Union and became the Kaliningrad oblast and the southern half was given back to Poland. I actually visited the southern half of the old East Prussia in Poland last year, as that is where my great grandfather was from. It is absolutely beautiful countryside. I’m sure the Jews could’ve done well with it and built it into something productive.

[quote]Let them have Florida. Make Boca the capital.

They already have Florida, but they are NY transplants.

How about Dearborn, Michigan....they could just displace the Palestinians that live there. It's what they're good at.

R52 it goes back alllll the way to the early days of Christendom, blaming Jews for the death of jesus

R58 You should be featured on Sky News’ “Lefties Losing It” segment.

Interesting, r32, but it seems those that were there have mostly left.

Unfortunately, anywhere they landed would have created resentment from those already there, but with the benefit of hindsight, Palestine seems to have been the worst possible choice.

Facts: Jews have always been in Israel. Continuously. Before all the far left blather about “apartheid,” let us remember that there are 200,000 Black Israelis, most of whom are Jews. Makes you think about the clarion call to the world’s Muslim population in 1948 to “drive the Jews into the sea.” I don’t think there are many Black “Palestinians.” Ashkenazi Jews (deemed “White”) are only half the population of Israel. Look up Operation Magic Carpet (& Mizrahi Jews) and the “Jewish Nakba” if you want to have a real conversation about “Palestinian” displacement.

Wasn’t Mexico considered at one point?

r56 the southern part of East Prussia was given to Poland, not given back. German East Prussia was also one of the poorest parts of Germany. It had agriculture but not much else.

R16 Most Israelis are secular.

How about (aboot) the Northwest Territories? They can mix with Eskimks.and polar bears.

Wrong R65. Sort of. And sort of correct. That region became part of Poland in the 1400s and then became part of the Kingdom of Prussia in the early 1700s. It became part of the German empire in 1871 when Germany unified and remained part of Germany until the end of WWII. So it went back and forth. The region was populated by Germans and Poles. My Polish great grandfather spoke both languages.

R4 "Birma"? Sheesh.

I always thought give them Bavaria!

Why do you all keep bringing up Isaac Mizrahi?

In terms of other places in Europe, maybe they could have worked out something with Greece after the war. There'd been a long history of Jews in Thessaloniki. As the wiki article points out, the area was once referred to as "the mother of Israel."

The Zionist movement for a Jewish state started before WWII.

[quote] Most Israelis are secular.

As of 2023, 45% call themselves secular, so no.

After centuries of persecution and violence they go and set up a State in the most dangerous place on earth.

That's still a very high percentage for a nation founded on and organized around a solo religion r74. It's surprisingly high.

R72, wasn’t Greece preoccupied with keeping the Communists out?

Jews would have been welcomed in Asia. The Phillipines offered safe haven in WWII.

R72, about 85 percent of Greece’s Jewish population were killed by the Nazis. As in many other places, the returning Jews were blocked from returning or homeless because they were not allowed to recover their property. The small number who were there post war were typically left wing or communist, so they did not do well during the Greek Civil War. In short, Greece was a pretty terrible place for Jews after the war.

We should have given all Jews automatic citizenship. We would gladly have them. We'd have all the Nobel prize winners, all the best scientists and yes, we'd have those weird Mormon Amish like ones, but we'd have the fiddlers on the roof too. We should have done that when they started rounding them up and branding them with yellow stars.

^ a classic education via Hollywood

[quote]Let them have Florida. Make Boca the capital.

And Morty Seinfeld the Governor.

“Facts: Jews have always been in Israel. Continuously. ”

Of course what r63 conveniently leaves out is that (1) so have Palestinian Christians and Muslims and (2) prior to mass emigration from Europe in the early 1900s courtesy of Zionism — and prior to 1948 in particular, when Zionist paramilitaries massacred / razed between 400 and 600 Palestinian village, poisoned Palestinian village wells via a biological warfare program and looted properties to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning — the Jewish population was a small minority of the population of the land currently known as Israel.

The whole point of Zionism was it was an unusual twist on late 19th century European colonialism, where Europeans went to the third world and took away the land of the natives. They couldn’t do that in Europe.

[quote] His diary includes the text of a letter Herzl wrote to Cecil Rhodes, shortly after the infamous Briton had colonized the land of the Shona people in Africa – whose land he claimed and renamed Rhodesia. “You are being invited to help make history,” Herzl wrote to Rhodes. “[I]t doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor; not Englishmen but Jews… How, then, do I happen to turn to you since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial… [Y]ou, Mr. Rhodes, are a visionary politician or a practical visionary… I want you to.. put the stamp of your authority on the Zionist plan and to make the following declaration to a few people who swear by you: I, Rhodes have examined this plan and found it correct and practicable. It is a plan full of culture, excellent for the group of people for whom it is directly designed, and quite good for England, for Greater Britain…."

We were unfortunately crazed anti-Semitic cunts r80, as was pretty much everybody until quite recently. It's tragic, but sometimes there is actually a cost to constant cunting and cuntery. Sad.

NO! There is no room in Europe for mutilators.

The British are the ones who gave Palestine to the Jews after World War I. The Jews migrated to Palestine but met Arab resistance which began the Jewish / Arab conflict. The UN recommended separating Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Arabs rejected that plan but the Jews accepted it, establishing the state of Isreal. Nearby Arab countries invaded but the Jews defended and not only defended but took more of Palestine as their own. During the war, 700,000, or about 80% of all Palestinians fled or were driven out of the territory that Israel conquered, and were not allowed to return, in an event that became known as the Nakba ("Catastrophe") to the Palestinians. Starting in the late 1940s and continuing for decades thereafter, about 850,000 Jews from the Arab world immigrated ("made Aliyah") to Israel.

Yes. You could choose a site near the crematoriums — we Jews are so into cooking . Or, choose a site in France , like where they herded all the Jewish children before delivering them to the ovens ( with a coupon, delivery is free!), or maybe in Poland where they can smell us from far away ? Oh, but that’s the new USA — that’ll keep those dirty swine out of the university . Or…. Send them to Hamas Harvard , where they’ll learn REAL history …. Not the made up bullshit about the Holocaust , courtesy of Stephen Spielberg , king of Hollywood and controller of all

[quote] Starting in the late 1940s and continuing for decades thereafter, about 850,000 Jews from the Arab world immigrated ("made Aliyah") to Israel.

Well, that's one way to put it.

This won’t be a popular opinion, but I think part of Israel’s pugnacious bullying is shame that so many went mildly to execution during WWII.

well maybe r90, but it's probably more a refusal to ever be caught in that position again, where submission and hope is the only reasonable choice. I can understand the fantasy that everybody could've just shot their way out of everything like in a stupid movie. But it probably wouldn't have worked in the end.

“ Anyplace given would have required displacement of peoples, or true democracy including freedom of religion and demographic mixes. That's not what the Jews wanted”

Have you read a single sentence about the state of Israel in your life? Yes, there is a lot to criticise about Israel, particularly in the areas it occupies, but within the state itself there is a very large non-Jewish population who are voting citizens and who have freedom of religion. Good luck finding that level of civil rights in the rest of the region.

I guess the Israelis could all leave and move to Alaska. And with global warming the entire Middle East region will eventually depopulate with the citizens moving to cooler climates., So we’ll still have Jewish Arab problems but this time in Alaska.

Of course R91. But you can be a strong, armed, nationalistic country without starting shit constantly. I would hope.

I don't think they are "starting shit constantly." I think Israel has been mostly on the defensive since 1948 r94. They don't really just attack their neighbors.

They DO do settlements in the West Bank, and that's a big problem, but that is part of the unsolvable problem of two peoples that clearly hate each other with a murderous passion trying to live side by side in what is still technically the same country. I don't think anybody has any easy solution to that. One partial solution was that Gaza would be largely independent, but when that happened, the people of Gaza decided to blow that shit up and stage a crazy attack last year.

[quote] Im not sure the Jews would have wanted to live … under communism.

Are you kidding?

This makes me think of Sal Mineo and Exodus. Sigh.

[quote] there are 200,000 Black Israelis

And how are they treated?

Very well. That’s why they emigrate to Israel.

R98. They work the Israeli plantations, Rose.

[quote] The British are the ones who gave Palestine to the Jews after World War I.

Utter nonsense. The British had a mandate to govern Palestine as caretakers for the League of Nations. They didn’t “own” Palestine and were in no position to “give” other peoples homes and villages to anyone.

well, they weren't entirely passive recipients r101. It was a sort of colony. The vague idea was they were governing it on behalf of the inhabitants, for now, and preparing them for independence. But that was the bullshit behind a lot of colonialism. The truth is, Britain could pretty much do what it wanted in the area in the 1920s. They wound up pushing some kinda sorta maybe Jewish state, but also an Arab state, and the truth is everybody was lying to everybody else about pretty much everything throughout that era. I don't think anybody knew what the fuck they were doing, really.

Paraguay after the War of the Triple Alliance was their best shot.

Palestine was underdeveloped and the Jews really increas3d their own and the Arab population in the seventy years to 1948

[quote] It was a sort of colony.

It wasnt by right, or by mandate, but the British ran it that way, because they were the world’s largest empire, and these were non-Europeans.

The British Rmpire did not own Mandatory Palestine. They had no right to give it to anyone. However, the empire clearly favored Zionism and permitted an influx from Europe, despite the misgivings of the British military men stationed there, who saw what a destabilizing influence the immigration was.

The British absconded from their mandatory obligations in 1947 (partly because of Zionist terrorism). They did not “give” Palestine to the Zionists.

Of course what the rabid, genocidal, racist @R83 conveniently leaves out is that was that there were NO “Palestinians” in Israel 5000 years ago when the Jews arrived. There was no such thing as “Palestinian” Christians until ca. 2000 years ago. There was no such thing as “Palestinian’ Muslims until ca. 1300 years ago. Your other Hamas propaganda is meaningless, as it is complete fiction. Israel was attacked in 1948 by bloodthirsty Arab Muslims determined to “drive Jews into the sea.” They have never reneged on that pledge. Sit down, ignorant cunt, you embarrass yourself. You clearly know nothing about history.

R83 has one post on DL.

[quote]The British are the ones who gave Palestine to the Jews after World War I.

Gave? The Jews [bold]bought[/bold] land in Palestine, during the Ottoman era, then in mandatory Palestine. Sure, some Palestinian supporters would have you believe that Jews stole their land. They will not or cannot admit their relatives sold land to Jews who immigrated. Those Jews bought the worst land at high prices and made the best of it. The Balfour Declaration was about giving Jews political control of their own country. So, perfidious Albion took the mandate it had been given by the League of Nations and gave about 3/4 to Arabs to create Transjordan where Jews were forbidden to buy land.

[quote]R106: that there were NO “Palestinians” in Israel 5000 years ago when the Jews arrived... Sit down, ignorant cunt, you embarrass yourself. You clearly know nothing about history.

Neither do you. There were no Jews 5000 years ago, and no Israel. The Book of Genesis isn't history.

r106 Even if you take the Bible as verified history (which it isn't by a long shot), you should have observed that there were many tribes living in the land currently known as Israel when the first people we now called Jews arrived from current day Iraq. There was NEVER a time (again, even if you use the Bible as a historical source) when the Jews were the only inhabitants of the land known as Israel. Did you never read about Moabites, Edomites, Philistines, Samaritans, Canaanites, Amorites, and a host of others? Current day Israel was always a desirable spot of settlement in the Middle East because it had sufficient winter rains to grow crops, it had a more hospitable (COOLER) climate in summer than most other regions of the Middle East, and it was part of major land trade routes between Egypt, a VERY rich nation, Persia, Asia minor (modern day Turkey) and Greece. By all objective historical analyses, the Jews never controlled all of Israel in ancient times. Their homeland and the area where they dominated demographically was the area we call Judea. About 50 miles in each direction from Jerusalem. That's it, end of story. In ancient times, Egypt was already heavily populated, but Israel was lightly populated. Most people there could only do subsistence farming and grazing. So there was room for all these various tribes, because none of them amounted to millions of people - more like hundreds or perhaps some measly thousands.

I don't dispute that Jews had a historical link to Jerusalem and its environs and maybe that was sufficient to try to move back to that land, but please don't sell the lie that there was no one else there before them. Many of the so-called Palestinians are descendants of the same tribespeople that were living in that area in 2000 BC.

Fuck off PD. Your trolling is legendary. Yahoo ring a bell? Your Hamas propaganda has no meaning here, Jew hater. Drive your government funded hoveround back over to the Daily Stormer to plot the next Holocaust. Your factoids did nothing to refute the facts that there is no such thing as a “Palestinian,”,and the Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for over 5000 years. Lol@,medium.com.

[QUOTE] I blame the UK. They were masterful colonizers, but relinquishing their colonies is where they proved themselves abject failures

Yes, this is definitely true of the US. They're about to elect a career criminal as president for the second time.

[QUOTE] They should have let them have Germany.

Nobody wanted to settle in any of the countries that had extermination camps. That ruled out Germany, Austria and Poland.

Shit stirring as ever on DL.

Retarded Hasbara / Zionist at r106 can’t dispute anything said about the facts re the local population in Palestine in the early 20th century, so like typical Hasbara bullshit changes the topic entirely to what he thinks happened literally 5000 years ago based on conjecture and fairytales.

Fucking moron at r111 conveniently leaves out the fact that prior to the creation of the nation-state of Israel in 1948: “Jewish” control was over 2,000 years ago, and only lasted around 400 years.

Or that at least 24 different powers have controlled the Jerusalem city/region in the past 4000+ years, including but not limited to the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Hasmoneans, Romans, Byzantines, Umayyads, Abbasids, Ottomans. None of whom were Jews.

That land is the ancient land of multiple civilizations, not just Jews. I’m sorry your ideology is based upon lies.

[quote]R106/R111: Fuck off PD. Your trolling is legendary. Yahoo ring a bell?

No, it does not. Link to my supposed troll posts on Yahoo, please.

[quote]Your Hamas propaganda has no meaning here, Jew hater.

Link to my supposed 'Hamas propaganda' and Jew hating.

[quote]Drive your government funded hoveround back over to the Daily Stormer to plot the next Holocaust.

Link?

[quote]Your factoids did nothing to refute the facts that there is no such thing as a “Palestinian,”,and the Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for over 5000 years. Lol@,medium.com.

You didn't read the article, or you would have seen the issue addressed.

I can link much the same information from other sources, if for whatever reason you can't cope with medium.com.

At least I offered a source supporting what I said. You have nothing to back up your claims, and screaming invective doesn't count. You sound like the sock of a certain infamous troll poster.

R108, this is hilarious. It’s like saying that white people “bought the majority” of land occupied once by Native Americans. Or that Germans “bought” the majority of art “sold” by desperate Jews trying to flee the Third Reich for their lives. Anyone who has done appraisal has to learn about arms length transactions.

Stop normalizing genocide.

Approximately less than a thousand Palestinians were killed in the 1948 war. You can certainly say that is a thousand too many deaths but you seem to have a strange definition of genocide.

If there’s a genocide against Palestinians, why don’t their population numbers go down? Their numbers, both inside and outside of Israel, continue to grow. The 30,000 fiction by the “Hamas Health Ministry ” notwithstanding.

I have a solution to the crisis in the Middle East -- give the Palestinians Greenland!

It's a big place. Nobody uses it.

Nice Hasbara spin, vFairy sock at r120, but the determination of whether a state or actor is committing acts of genocide on a population has nothing to do with the reproductive success or rates of said population.

Considering the fact that the Soviet Union occupied half of Europe for 40 years, there wasn't much land to go around or give away under Allied control. Also, the Jewish European remnant was traumatized beyond words. It would have required much outside assistance in creating, building and running the place and given the task of rebuilding Europe as a whole, I doubt the US would want to have taken this on. The UK was exhausted. France was tearing itself apart, no one had the energy or will I would imagine.

There was already a large, vibrant and established Jewish community in the future state of Israel, living on land bought from the Ottoman Empire since the late 1900s. There was also huge Mizrahi and Sephardic populations (in the millions) in neighboring countries which would eventually be driven from these muslim countries, so there was already a large Jewish population in the entire region. Therefore, returning their ancestral and historic homeland back to the Jews made a lot of sense.

Love to see the Zionist troll being greyed out.

R101 see Balfour Declaration. Britan helped to establish Isreal as the Jewish homeland. "The opening words of the declaration represented the first public expression of support for Zionism by a major political power. The term "national home" had no precedent in international law, and was intentionally vague as to whether a Jewish state was contemplated. The intended boundaries of Palestine were not specified, and the British government later confirmed that the words "in Palestine" meant that the Jewish national home was not intended to cover all of Palestine." Also see - The Mandate for Palestine

I was wrong at R90 and R94. I think they are pugnacious, but I take back the bullying and starting shit part. I don’t know enough about the Middle East to declare those things. The ME history is one of those things I haven’t explored yet.

R126, I don't think the Israelis are being bullies. I think the Israeli mindset, and it is entirely justified, is that for 2,000 years we tried to live by everyone else's laws and rules while enriching their country's culture, sciences, finances , education and all we got was violence, death and exile. They have had enough, and rightly so. They have their homeland back and they are making the rules and not taking anyone's shit. Good for them!

They have tried to make peace with their muslim neighbors many but got nowhere and have been attacked and fought for their total survival several times.. October 7th was an epiphany for many Israelis, the diaspora, and gentile allies and those of us who know history. Peace is not possible with islam, only submission or death.

I didn't hate Israel or the Israelis before October 7. Now I hate them both.

R128, you should have understood what Jews have been dealing with for the past 2,000 years. October 7th was a blatant pogrom, hundreds of which have happened in Europe and muslim countries. Men deliberately set out to massacre civilians, fucking young kids at a music festival for fuck sakes!, families, children all the while filming it and shouting to the greatness of the islamic god! They dragged the bodies of the executed into gaza and the gazans celebrated and beat the dead bodies of Jews. The gazans followed the murderers and rapists and plundered the Jewish homes.

What, exactly, would have been an appropriate Israeli response?

R128. You hate them as of the day they were taken hostage by terrorists?

R87 Mizrahim & Sephardim are 70% of Israeli Jews. Clue: They aren't white and they aren’t from Europe. Antisemites try to claim a bunch of white Jews parachuted in to "Palestine" from Europe. Even the Quran mentions Israel over 40 times. Get an education.

The British have blood on their hands, now they are paying for it. Here we have both Britain and their brethren carving up the middle east, for whatever they could loot. I'm actually surprised they didn't actually move a whole pyramid one by one, they stole everything else!

[quote] It’s like saying that white people “bought the majority” of land occupied once by Native Americans

No, not even close. Jews immigrating to Israel bought land held by Ottoman landlords and from Arab landholders.

Luff Hamas bots being greyed out.

Jews owned about 6 percent of the land in 1948. Maybe that would have been an option, long term, but in the reality of the time it was not really the reason Israel happened.

[quote] I didn't hate Israel or the Israelis before October 7. Now I hate them both.

Are you sure you're not lying about that?

R111 actually PD is correct - read that article he posted all the way through, it is actually very balanced and informative, acknowledging that the history of the region is complex and many groups have had control over it over the last 2000 years

There are plenty of anti semites here, but Poisoned Dragon isnt one of them - I know a Hamas propaganda troll when I see one, and God knows I've seen plenty here - again PD isnt one of those either

The end of the article finishes with this conclusion;

[quote]Without litigating the actual claim question, here are some things I’ve come to believe as I research this question:

[quote] Far from being a neutral geographic label, “Palestine” as a term has a normative historical usage which has almost always been confessionally opposed to whatever form of YHWH-ism happened to exist at the time. While it is not necessarily an anti-Semitic term, it is not a neutral geographic reference.

[quote]While Muslim rule of the region has existed for a very long time, most of that period coincided with population decline or stagnation at levels far below what the region could sustain; Muslim rulers drove out most of the inhabitants indigenous when they arrived, converted a modest number of the residual who stuck around, and then left the land underpopulated for centuries.

[quote]This then meant that when Jews had an opportunity to return, there were copious amounts of marginal lands available for purchase. Had Ottoman rule yielded a bustling economy with productive agriculture, Jewish immigration would simply never have worked. Mismanagement by Islamic states is the proximate factor that enabled Jewish migration to be so dramatically effective as a strategy.

[quote]Modern Palestinians and modern Jews both bear unmistakable genetic marks of ancient ancestry in the southwest Levant. Palestinians have more commonality, but Ashkenazi Jews remain >50% “quasi-Canaanite.” If genetics create claims, then they have a pretty good one.

[quote]Palestinians bet the farm on the idea that, in the words of their own generals in the 1948 war, they could “sweep the Jews into the sea,” i.e. successfully genocide them. The Palestinian political strategy 1919–1948 was entirely based on the idea that, bereft of British support, the Jews would be easy prey. This was the strategic calculus motivating repeated Palestinian choices to reject compromises, forego participation in political processes, and engage in destructive conflicts. This calculus was catastrophically wrong.

[quote]Had Palestinians in the 1920s participated in government, things might have still gone badly. But as it is, setting aside the question of legitimate claims, the record of Palestinian political conduct 1919–1948 is mind-bogglingly egregious: rampantly anti-Semitic, forthrightly genocidal, carried out repeated actual massacres… very bad!

Continued;

[quote] Israel is sometimes critiqued as an apartheid state. Regardless of the truth or accuracy of this, I was struck that in 1939, Britain implemented actual racial residency zones similar to actual apartheid. Britain made it illegal to sell land to Jews in 95% of the land area of the mandate. This extraordinary choice effectively created today’s battle lines, as the critical period of massive Jewish migration saw them clustered ever-more-densely into their enclaves. It was Palestinians who “benefited” from apartheid-like rules 1940–1948. Turnabout is not fair play, but, in combination with Anglo-Soviet treatment of Jews fleeing Nazis, I was astonished just how badly the British treated Jews 1939–1948.

[quote]So who has claim? This post isn’t going to give you some “scientific empirical measure of claim.” My view is that all these people have lived in the area as far back as we can sequence DNA, there’s always been religious conflict and oscillation in the region, it’s unlikely to stop. I’d like all players to benefit from prosperous modern economies and representative governments assuring civil rights. On this basis, my preference is for Israel. But if tomorrow Israel abolished the civil rights of its Arab citizens, my views might change! So far, they have not. Regardless of if you share my views, I hope this post has been informative.

Thats a pretty reasonable and balanced set of conclusions and all based on researched facts. No anti-semitism there

It would have been possible only if the new state was established with the city limits of Minsk and Pinsk.

Opinion, V8, merely opinion. It’s not sourced material. Let’s take one factoid as an example. Ashkenazi Jews are NOT the majority. Not even close. 31%. This is an easy, knowable fact. 13 different sources from Wikipedia. 5 second search. I’ll add you the list of Hamas Misinformation Specialists.

Socks are still socks.

I would completely love and support the Jews declaring New Mexico as their promised land. It would be the first time anyone’s had an intelligent conversation in that place.

I thought they all moved to Boca.

That war and it's vibe was the most fucked up time in modern history, they wanted Israel and it was granted.

Yeah, the vibe from Nazi Germany was definitely not groovy, man!

[quote]R140: Let’s take one factoid as an example. Ashkenazi Jews are NOT the majority.

The excerpt v8fairy cited says nothing of the sort. The citation says:

[quote]Modern Palestinians and modern Jews both bear unmistakable genetic marks of ancient ancestry in the southwest Levant. Palestinians have more commonality, but Ashkenazi Jews remain >50% “quasi-Canaanite.” If genetics create claims, then they have a pretty good one.

It's talking about the genetic makeup of modern Palestinians and Ashkenazi Jews, and their relative percentage of Canaanite ancestry, and says nothing whatsoever about what proportion of constituency they represent vs modern Jews. You're not engaging with any of the linked material at R109, or even with what v8fairy has quoted at R137/R138.

R16: “ Humans killing humans called for by some god or allah. What a farce. And what a failure of humankind.”

yes, we were xtianists and that’s why!!