Ongoing Sex With a "Straight" Married Guy

If he's having sex with you (or another man) he's not straight.

QED.

What does he think sex is? Then all sex is just letting off steam. What a moron.

“Letting off steam.”

I’m sure his frau wife would find his ongoing sexual relationship with a gay man no big deal. Just two buddies being kooky together!

It’s wild the stories people tell themselves to rationalize their behavior.

He's bisexual and he's using your body for recreational purposes. As long as you're both fine with that, I don't see an issue with it.

Love you, R3

It's all about how you frame it, I guess. Denial is a strong power...

Repeat callers are not straight, OP.

R4 for the win.

The discussion as far as how we self label our own or others sexual behavior is a bit like monks discussing theology. Interesting but little connection to real life

Lots of men are sexually and emotionally attracted to females but will have lots of sex, not lots of relationships usually wother than a FB, but lots of sex with men. A FB, a GH, the tubs, the parks they are going to have lots of sex with lots of different men,

In life it’s behavior that counts not so much labels people can’t agree on

OP, ignore all the naysayers. Of course your FWB is straight! In fact, he is so very straight, that he keeps going straight into your bed.

There ain't no bending sissy faggotry with this 100% macho stud. It's only straight to the next man for him!

What a wonderfully novel topic to discuss on DL.

[QUOTE] I wonder if "straight" guys who have sex with other guys just look at it as a stress relieving activity

Fags!

The root of the whole issue is if you personally feel sex is “important” and has underlying meaning beyond the physical act, or you really do see it as just another physical thing one does, and it only amounts to “letting off steam.”

I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer to the above, but you really can only logically believe one or the other. However, most humans are far from logical - so we pick and choose to get what we want yet not consider ourselves “wrong.”

OP - In this situation it really doesn’t matter what this guy thinks about his actions and how they affect his life. All that matters for you is how you feel about your own.

[quote]Anybody else have any similar experiences with straight guys?

No, OP. No one has ever had the experience you described. Not once. You are the first gay man to have sex with a married "straight" man who compartmentalizes his life to justify cheating on his wife. It's simply never happened before.

Frankly, this is so new and unheard of that I am fascinated. Please, tell us more.

[quote]I wonder if "straight" guys who have sex with other guys just look at it as a stress relieving activity.

I wonder if you just fell off of a turnip truck.

Are you for real with this schtick? How old are you? Where are you from?

Dear Penthouse Forum

I used to encounter married men at the baths back in the 90’s. Several explained that that they didn’t believe sex with a man was “real” sex, only sex with a woman. Many added that they’d never had sex with another man, until their wives, not all that long after having children, had informed them they no longer wanted sex.

That was when they had realized that, because their wives no longer wanted sex, they were being pressured into giving up sex as well. Which none of them was prepared to do. So they turned to men, whom they regarded as a safe alternative. They had no inclination for emotional involvement with a man. None.

A few admitted that, if their wives found out, they’d take their husbands for everything they had. So their participation had a rueful edge. But they all realized their male needs were more important, and were grateful there were other anonymous men to relieve them.

Straight men have a way of fragmenting reality so they don't have to call themselves bi or gay.

For all you magpies who can't wait to post that any man who has sex with men is not straight, please note that OP used quotation marks around the word straight. Like this; "straight". It's the grammatical way of winking. So save the lecturing.

Makes sense he thinks it's blowing off steam. You met him by blowing him in the steam room after all. hehe

This topic has been sliced, diced and analyzed sooooo many times here.

I don't know if a guy like OP's fuckbuddy is straight or not. I try not to keep complicated thoughts like that in my mind when a married guy's big babymaking balls are bouncing off my chin.

I appreciate the thread OP, for the story and have no need to again rehash how straight men (or “straight” men) who have sex with men aren’t really straight.

What I AM curious about is if OP has any inclination to track down his FB’s kids and possibly make this cross-generational?

[quote]This topic has been sliced, diced and analyzed sooooo many times here.

It's been academically studied and discussed for decades now. It's asinine to play the naïf on the topic of male sexual fluidity and the "downlow" phenomenon, especially for a presumably gay male. OP is a tool if not a troll.

Are you satisfied with the “relationship” you have with him, OP? Do you wish for more? Do you resent his wife or his talking about her? Are you always available?

R22 I'm perfectly fine with what I have going with this guy. I don't want a relationship and I'm not at all interested in what goes on with him in his "other life." I'm glad he's happy in his married life.

He never calls ahead when he shows up. He just shows up. Sometimes I'm here when he shows up, sometimes I'm not, but I'm always happy to mess around with him when he does show up.

I just think it's kind of funny he thinks of gay sex as "letting off steam." True, we let off steam together, but in a very gay way.

[quote]True, we let off steam together, but in a very gay way.

Pix would help me understand this better.

OK, if I were writing this screenplay, the wife finds out he is fucking a Gay guy and she confronts him. He loses it and goes to his fuck buddy's house and kills him. Scenario #2: The Gay guy falls in love. He finds someone he really cares for and wants a relationship. Fuck Buddy shows up unannounced and the Gay guy tells him no. Then he tells him "I can't see you anymore, I met someone." The straight guy is jealous. He starts following him and stalking him, and eventually they have a confrontation and the straight guy kills him.

OP - it's ridiculous and futile to try to read into "straight guys" who have sex with men. Just stop this armchair psychology.

I'm 60 and have had over the years several very long term married "straight" fathers who just LOVE PIGGY GAY sex. They had a a variety of ways to talk about this or not talk about this and it was completely irrelevant.

The reason the sex was sustained as hot for years was that we remained sex partners not lovers not confidants - and when you are great fuckbuddies, shameless and inventive, and can sustain it you don't want to break whatever magic there is. The less you know, the better. In the category of fuckbuddies.

r25, you have a rich, full life of the imagination.

In GAY WORLD, it is a Tale as old as Time. I always let the "str8 guy" talk about his marriage, relationships, children what he "liked" to do.

Because it was Philly, sports were a safe topic. The TV was always turned on to sports. Lots of beer in the condo (beer blowjobs& poppers were always a wonder to the str8 guys). It was always blowjobs in the beginning, unless the str8 guy was drunk and curious, then it was Ass time!!

"That was when they had realized that, because their wives no longer wanted sex, they were being pressured into giving up sex as well. Which none of them was prepared to do. So they turned to men, "

A straight man will pay $2 to a methed out crack whore before he has sex with another man. "

Is he a top or a bottom?

R1 we know this. Straight boys don’t. Then there are the straights that get no release from their wives - they go to adult bookstores & parks to get a suck. I wouldn’t call that gay. Did that cover it for you & your insipid post?

He has a psychological wall up - he can't view himself as gay or bi because it would utterly destroy his self esteem, he would be instantly worthless to his father, to his friends, to himself.

How do the unannounced drop-ins work for fucking?

R32 additionally - actually straight guys would never consider "letting off steam" or making ANY physical intimate contact with another man whatsoever, for many the mere suggestion is enough to provoke violence or at the very least immediate HARSH rejection. This fantasy that straight guys are all doing this and it's super common and there's just this world of straight guys all giving eachother handjobs and showing eachother their dicks is JUST a fantasy

You are a homewrecker! Can’t you find single men to fuck? I hate people who think it’s ok to insert themselves into a married couple’s life. HOW DARE YOU!

Agree that labels are shitty and sexuality is a spectrum blah blah blah.

But like r29 and r34 have said - straight men with frigid wives don’t think “oh let me find a gay man to fuck - perfect solution - a hole is a hole - it’s just sex - no problem.” They have affairs with women, they use female prostitutes, they develop porn addictions, etc.

What I wonder is whether the frau wife would be more horrified by her husband visiting his gym friend to “blow off steam” occasionally or using a female prostitute every few months. I would imagine him fucking a man would provoke more horror and hysteria, but what do I know?

I never ask about the wife or kids. I figure they’re boner wilters

R25 is Emily Bronte.

[quote]He never calls ahead when he shows up. He just shows up.

This is pretty disrespectful and I wouldn't tolerate this treatment.

R35 reeks of Frau. Go away Frau, we're fucking your husband and he loves every second of it.

I find the "just drop by-no phone call or planning whatsoever" intolerable. I don't care that they're married or straight, if it's just a fuck, but there has to be a little planning. I had one "straight" guy who would apparently spend the evening with his girlfriend, drop her off, and show up at my door at 1am or even later, no phone call. Told him to be an adult and phone early in the day to plan. He tried using the phone a few times, but would still try knocking on the door late at night. Nixed him.

R15 is full of it. Straight guys don't start having sex with guys because their wives don't want sex. If they want sex, they'll have sex with women

The drop by aspect is creepy. You're just home doing your thing, your married fb drops by unexpectedly, and it's just "go time?" Drop everything then and there and have sex? This is hot maybe once or twice in theory, but as a relationship model? Are you ever just not in the mood? Do you have literally any other friends to speak of?

Besides the randomness and potential for inconvenience, do you realize that he is exerting complete control over you in those moments? Does your desire for sex ever play any part in your sexual encounters? Or are you just a hole on call for your masculine superiors?

It sounds really fucked up, OP. This guy is practically your stalker and you're treating it like it's a great arrangement for you. "He drops by whenever he feels like it for no strings sex that he doesn't consider sex, isn't it great?" Mmmkay, hon.

Also, R15, straight guys just don't accidentally wander into a gay bathhouse. You have to be actively looking for a gay bathhouse to end up in one.

Either you or your gay bathhouse hookups were delusional, probably both.

R42

They generally do not start having sex with men because their wife no long wants sex. Often these guys grew up having sex with men and girls..

They are often having sex with the wife and with the guys. And they have sex with the guys because it’s easy , with no strings attached, it’s more a sure thing without major effort. .

With a gay guy who lives alone , the married guy may not even have to call ahead, he does not have to deal with dinner out, it’s strictly about the sex. A fuck buddy.

As one allegedly straight man told me, I am not sexually attracted to men, I am attracted to sex with men. It’s the sex not the man I want.

I think we over think much of this , it’s just recreational fucking and sucking. And if that is what both parties ( or more) are looking for then it’s a win win for both of them.

Lucky OP lucky straight FB

Chop his cock off and shove it down Gerg’s gullet.

[quote] Chop his cock off and shove it down Gerg’s gullet.

R46, were you orphaned or were your parents just really bad at their job?

I only ask because you are so immature and embarrassing.

If your parents aren’t dead or missing, they must feel like failures?

I bet they do.

It would be interesting to me to find out if this so-called "str8" guy is a 'TOP' OR 'BOTTOM!' Also, if they really make love (kissing, licking, biting, etc.) or is it just a BJ? If it involves anal and emotional responses, then I would say he is acting out his repressed sexual needs! BTW: I'm puzzled, if he's str8, why wouldn't he hook up with a woman? This also goes for those guys in steam rooms and gyms, who get it on with men! Hey, whores and available ladies abound everywhere (also on the internet!), so they should have no problem in securing one for a tryst!!

R42. No. Been to a bookstore filled with a bevy of ugly married dudes. No woman is fucking these guys. And these working class guys aren’t dropping coins for a whore. A gay mouth will do. Funny enough my bestie loves the chunk- funk married dudes.

[quote]As one allegedly straight man told me, I am not sexually attracted to men, I am attracted to sex with men.

"I am not sexually attracted to cows, I am attracted to sex with cows."

"I am not sexually attracted to desk lamps, I am attracted to sex with desk lamps."

This is ridiculous. You don't have sex with things you're not attracted to. Is he still attracted to sex with men if the man is 90 years old and has leprosy?

R49 What makes you think they're not able to fuck a woman? No straight man wants to fuck or get fucked by a man, even if they're not getting it at home. They either hire an escort, create a dating app profile, find a mistress at work or just go without. Straight men do not have sex with other men.

Agree, r51, these guys are experiencing homosexual desires, but may not want any part of gay culture, no circle of gay friends, keeps everything hid from those near and dear. Straight men find another woman when they want sex. Just like gay men don't fuck women during a dry spell.

I love how the gay men on here believe any utterance out of the mouths of these "straight" guys they're picking up in gay bathhouses and ABS.

Want to get a gay man hot and bothered? Just tell him you're straight. They'll go insane with glee that they bagged "a straight guy."

[quote] Hey, whores and available ladies abound everywhere (also on the internet!), so they should have no problem in securing one for a tryst!!

And just where would you find a lady whore to fuck or eat out? And I am not talking about a prostitute.

Tinder

Buy a cheap wedding band. Go to a city where no one knows you. Put the wedding band on your left ring finger before entering a gay bar. Enjoy your sudden popularity in gay bars as "a married straight man."

r25 Scenario #3: Wifey gets suspicious, tracks hubby Bruno to his secret rendezvous, bursts into the bedroom, and gasps, "OMG Bruno, you're fucking my first husband!"

"Lulu! Is Bruno your second husband? You've got wonderful taste!"

OP do you all kiss?

[quote]Or are you just a hole on call for your masculine superiors?

Damaged people have damaging sex.

Having the ability to find and enjoy sex without a deep emotional connection does not mean a person is "damaged."

OP here. The reason he just "shows up" is because he doesn't want to risk his wife finding anything on his phone that might make her suspicious, so I respect that. When he comes over, he uses a special pattern to "buzz" my condo intercom so I know it's him and can buzz him in. I will admit that there have been times when I've heard the buzz and haven't answered, usually because I'm tired, too busy working or doing something else, I just jacked off and am not in the mood, or if there are other people at my place.

And to R58, kissing is very rare between us, although I was surprised during out last hookup, because he started kissing me and wouldn't stop. That was one of the reasons our most recent session was so intense. It was a real surprise.

I love kissing. I've kissed lots of guys I have no feelings for. Co-signing R60 that enjoying physical intimacy without any emotional feelings for your partner is not a bad thing.

To R58, In my experience, I let the str8 man make the 1st move on kissing.

To R56, you are not kidding on the wedding ring, works every time, in many gay bars all over the USA.

If you're happy being a meat hole than fine. I was. When I was a teen there was a titty bar in a strip mall type set up. Right next door was an adult bookstore. Down stairs were booths with glory holes. I would sit in my car in the parking lot and watch for straight or "straight" guys go into the bookstore all horned up and hard. When I saw one who I thought was hot I'd go down to the booths and suck him(or them) off through the glory holes. Good times. Good times.

[quote]He never calls ahead when he shows up. He just shows up.

So, does he watch ESPN while you douche?

‘Letting off steam’ is just how he processes having homosexual's sex yet maintaining his heterosexuality identity. He’s personalized it.

R56. You’re in for a shock—men can marry men these days and some of wear wedding rings! Yes, even on our left hands!

He sounds peculiar, stay away from him.

This is a classic conundrum in gay circles! There are those of uss who say he's a closet case, or he is bisexual, or he's 'curious!' or he's str8 if he doesn't kiss or take it up the ass! I go with those who say he is a closet case! Why? Well, if he is seeking sexual relief (and he's str8) why not hookup with a woman? The social media is loaded with sites looking for sex(from women) or visit any sport's bar, BINGO! This goes for guys in gyms!

R69 I think a lot of "straight" married guys, in their heads, figure messing around with another guy isn't cheating, so that's why they don't hook up with women when they need to get off.

I never understood that 'feeling' thing...

I bet he has stress relieving activity with other guys as well.

I met my blue collar family man fuck buddy at the gym. He said he never considered sex with me as cheating on his wife because it was just 'an extension of his workout.'. Fine with me.

R73 Do you keep track of the calories you burn?

[quote]R36 straight men with frigid wives don’t think “oh let me find a gay man to fuck - perfect solution - a hole is a hole - it’s just sex - no problem.” They have affairs with women, they use female prostitutes, they develop porn addictions, etc.

Exactly. Just like horny gay men don’t pick up women, figuring “any port in a storm!”

[R44]: Don’t look at me. I was just sharing my observations from past encounters. Unlike OP, my days of having much to do with married men socially are long gone.

I refuse to allow anyone to have total arbitrary control over me in any connection.

This sounds like a role-playing relationship, which is fine, as long as people know where the boundaries are.

He probably thinks getting railed in the ass is just 2 bros hanging out

Probably Gerg

R69 he didn't look for a woman because A. that would be cheating, and B. it would probably cost money, C. He couldn't just "show up."

There are a lot of skanks out there and I’m sure if a guy was that desperate for a female hole he could find one.

A lot of gay guys prefer the pseudo closet. I've had gay friends who really seek "straight acting" and "newbie" types to exploit. One would dress and act really straight, talked sports,,would cruise the college bars and would meet fraternity type guys, even though he was in his early thirties at the time. His initial persona was that of a straight guy just experimenting. It worked, he'd show up with some really handsome frat type guys who'd he'd date and sometimes even move them in for a while.

If he has a normal real man's penis, continue.

If he has a stunted weird penis where you can't get to the real part i.e. the head because of the foreskin problem. it's for women only. Get rid of it.

Bi today, gay tomorrow

R83, from what personal experience are you speaking??

I agree… [italic]THROW IT BACK!

Bitter from recent encounter / waste of time, R85.

Yeah he's not straight OP.

Some "straight" married guys are so ugly (usually hefty, too) that no woman alive would fuck them.

That said, I've heard thay a business associate who is hefty, ugly and sleazy towards women is into swingers' parties. The men at those parties must be providing the women attending with lots of alcohol and/or drugs to let guys like him fuck them.

R50

Lots of,people have sex every day with people or things they are not attracted to, (this is not aimed at this OP or his nice friendly FB in any way two people who seem to have a good relationship )

Men by the 1000s today will be sticking their dick into a glory hole (or sucking a dick thru a GH) and having sex with a man they don’t even see.

Many men will be having sex today with some flesh light (sp). Artificial Pussy or ass they bought on line,

Men are sexual creatures in a way woman are not, it’s interesting I have never heard a straight man ever tell me how easy it was to find a glory hole, a public park, a steam bath or similar where they could find a woman who would suck and fuck and then they could just leave without so much as an exchange of names or money,

Gay or bi men can do this all the time as far as other men.

In fact the only men who have ever told me how sure, easy, quick, and without paying it is for a straight or bi man to find woman to fuck, are gay men who don’t actually fuck woman,

He's bisexual and heteroromantic. Marries a woman and has romantic loving sex with her whilst using you for the wild intensely physical stuff. Have fun but don't be delusional.

Gerg

R25 = the proverbial life of the party

OP, I'm really curious how this whole situation of yours got started. What was the scenario, who made the first move, how did it go?

R88 not straight, but “straight” is actually a fair description. R91 defines what the quotation marks mean pretty well

I don't think this is uncommon. An old bf of mine, lived next door to a cute couple, the husband was a sweet draftsman, former Navy guy, and the wife a ball of fire, nice to everyone. We all drank heavily one night, and the husband and I stayed up at their bar, talking while his wife went to bed, and my bf fell asleep on their couch. Knowing I was gay, he was full of questions, and I got the hint. We waltzed outside of their apartment, and went at it in a little alcove off their floor. He wasn't going to leave his wife, and I wasn't going to say anything, though my then bf picked up on it. I missed this sweet guy, and he died young. I doubt he would have left his wife, and they never had kids, so it always made me wonder. I know he felt more relaxed talking to me than his regular straight friends.

R96 that's actually a sweet, sad story.

Straight men don’t have sex with other men if they’re straight. They troll hookup sites and hit on woman coworkers. If they are having regular sex with you, this isn’t the first time. He’s bi.

It's possible to be both emotionally and sexually attracted to one gender but also be just sexually attracted to another gender. Or to be sexually and emotionally attracted to both while also being situationally monogamous with one deeply committed partner 99% of the time while straying 1% with the gender you don't have at home. It's also possible to be pansexual/gender neutral in your attractions, aka "the heart wants what it wants."

And it's definitely possible to be all, some, or any one of these things and still end up with a life where outsiders label you as "a straight man" because you ultimately married a woman a reproduced with her.

Bisexuality exists. The sum total of all men includes a lot more than a minority of exclusively homosexual men who self-identify as gay opposite a vast and unending default of "no homos" that everyone chooses to read as uniformly heterosexual. Sexuality is a spectrum. There are grey areas and blurred lines. There are more than 2 possible outcomes.

Fine, r98. Maybe OP can get him to sign and notarize a Certificate of Bisexuality sometime in the near future.

Now does everyone understand , why they use MSM, when reporting data , men who have sex with men, and not gay bi or I am straight (but fuck guys ) as a self identifier?

Stop it with the commas!

R101 I love the MSM classification.

It either applies to you or it doesn't, no pretzel logic necessary.

R94 I was in the locker room and was weighing myself. This guy walked past me and his hand brushed against my ass when he did. I thought to myself, "Did he just do that on purpose? Because it felt like he did."

Then when I was on my out of the gym and walking to my car, he followed me out. He asked if I had any free time to get together. He was pretty assertive and I was surprised. I wasn't quite sure about his motives or if he was some nut job who was gonna take me home and beat me up or murder me, so I declined and said I had to get to work right away.

So the next morning at the gym, he came up and talked to me and I got to know him a little better. He was basically horny and looking to get off. I figured he wasn't getting any sex at home, and I was down for a good time, too. So that's how it all started.

Ooohhh!! OP/R104 it reads like he was really attracted to you. Question. Do you think he also sees other guys? I'm curious because you describe him as being kind of aggressive.

R105 I have no doubt he messes around with other guys, too, but I haven't asked him. I'm pretty sure it was his first time when we messed around, because he was super nervous and a little clumsy. But he's gotten much better, so I'm guessing he's been practicing.

You’re a Gateway Drug, OP. Congrats!

OP, seems like to me he is inching his way up to coming out. He's not there yet, but given time, he will. If his kids are getting older,etc. And his wife has to be suspicious. She has to be. Is his name Ennis?

Op, Twist? Op nasty!

I'd hate if a guy randomly turned up at my home looking for sex. What if I'd had a bad case of flatulence?

He keeps coming back because he feels safe with you. And you seem to not be judgemental. You're an oasis for him.

R110 - OP stated above that he sometimes doesn't answer his door buzzer if he's otherwise engaged or not in the mood. Life's not that difficult.

R112 I don't have a buzzer, just a garden path. Not everything is about OP you know

R113 Like this thread isn't about you and your garden path.

R114 you probably have all sorts of men coming round to your house to use your holes. You tart!

"I'd hate if a guy randomly turned up at my home looking for sex. What if I'd had a bad case of flatulence?"

Those realities of daily life never both to intrude on DLer's ESTs, especially when "straight" guys are involved.

If a married 'straight' man has any bi proclivities, I could see why a male sidepiece is more attractive option.

There's no pregnancy scares, no women wondering 'where is this going? are you going to leave your wife for me?, and low levels of emotional outpouring or even having to buy gifts, dinners, etc.

Being in a relationship with a woman is a lot of time and work if all you want is sex.

But by no means are these guys 'straight' - otherwise gay men would have put strip clubs and female prostitutes out of business a LONG time ago.

[quote]R106 I have no doubt he messes around with other guys, too

This story just gets sadder and sadder.

This will end in tears, murder for hire, betrayal, other secret lovers, dateline, the wife’s grand jury, and a gay funeral.

R47 Greg, you been watch Real Housewives of Atlanta? Your reads have been epic lately.

“Are you one of those omnisexuals?”

OP, I guess the real question is... does he fuck (anal) or get fucked (anal) or both? Does he suck dick, get his dick sucked, or both? Does he hand job (is mutual j/o a part of it)? What about kissing. Does he kiss?

(lack of kissing is a deal-breaker for me... nothing gets me hotter, literally, and I will cum hardest from a guy deep kissing me while jacking me off)

r122 that's what Im wondering. OP did say they have kissed. If OP is just sucking his dick this is a purely transactional thing

[QUOTE] He showed up yesterday, and we had some of the most intense sex ever we've had.

Surely OP wouldn't have said this if he was just sucking the married guy's dick?

I say these guys... identify as straight.

Like my kitten identifies as a good boy.

Darlings, in these marriages it's not the wives who've lost interest in marital sex.

I've had gay guys where u can feel the relief; the letting off steam;...and even the pure relief of human contact. Especially young guys...I think a lot of their hook-ups are robotic and cold. So I can understand a man..(who's convinced himself he's straight) just seeing it as letting off steam.

How are they “straight”? Seriously, these men sound like they want to be with men more than myself, an actual DLer.

Oh, and, in real life, we know our "straight" husband is gay.

We either don't care, knew all along, we have an arrangement that works for us, or, I'm looking the other way and we're both pretending because we've weighed the options, and breaking up seems too much of a chore rather than just stay together.

The War of Definitions and Labels.

The ongoing struggle to decide how other people self identify. Decades from now it will be this critical issue not the 2024 election that will define future generations.

It’s called denial OP and it’s fucked up, although you may be having fun. But he’s at least bisexual and in denial. Not healthy.

if you're having intercourse I want to know if you're practicing safe sex. and yeah, I want details. What is you two actually get up to?

[quote] [R47] Greg, you been watch Real Housewives of Atlanta? Your reads have been epic lately.

No, R120, I do not watch the Real Housewives of anyplace.

I'm glad you've found my reads epic.

My partner was married to a woman for over 22 years. The amount of denial that people can go through is staggering.

There are a lot of people whose family and social circles are just not very open or tolerant. You lose EVERYTHING you know if you come out.

The social pressures to get married, have kids - plus the constant negative comments from church, family, friends about gays and fags - how do you fight against that - particularly in pre-internet times?

There are multiple societal penalties for being gay, either explicitly stated or unsaid - including religion, your family, your neighbors, and even your job prospects and career trajectory. There's still a huge stigma, particularly for men, although everyone acts like it's not an issue we deal with anymore. Just like race-based discrimination just supposedly went away with Obama's election.

Yes it is still a big issue. There are tons of people in our society who'd rather see us closeted or dead and they make it well known in their circles.

What's shittier - is that these people whose hate make it harder for everyone else are usually coddled and protected "oh they're just old-fashioned and traditional" or "that's their religion".

Being out and gay is still a subversive and brave act - even in 2023 - and while it's definitely easier today, it's not without its minefields and harm-navigation.

AMEN R134 and all true!