Joni Mitchell -- I just don't get it

Errr.... *ages Lol But I'm kinda loving "eggs" -- (and fuck you, spellcheck).

"suddenly" - where have you been?

[quote] Is she any more of a "revelation" than Joan Baez or any other folksy hippie crooner of a certain era?

Yes.

Her voice is like nails on a chalkboard.

Adult contemporary, I guess.

Is that still a thing?

Joni Mitchell wrote her own stuff. Most of the others did not.

Her best song is "Both Sides Now".

It's great music and great poetry.

I love this one.

R4 Convinced now. Thanks for the articulate and compelling insights. #Coyotesinthecoffeeshop 🙄

I’m so grateful to be alive!

She never had the voice Baez did, of course.

I was never a big fan of either of them, they were both a few years before my time. However, Both Sides Now has so many excellent, moving and different interpretations, musically and lyrically. Its meaning changes also as one gets older.

Joan Baez has a beautiful voice.

You're obviously not a musician, OP.

Because Joni is an extraordinarily gifted writer.

Joan Baez did not write much.

She is a songwriting genius, a standout of a generation that included some brilliant songwriters.

Her confessional lyrics and melodic and harmonic sophistication pushed the boundaries of popular music. IMHO, she's a greater and more wide-ranging talent than Bob Dylan. (And to my ears, more accessible.)

No, her idiosyncratic vocals and intimate subject matter aren't for everyone, OP. But you might want to give BLUE or CLOUDS a close listen before you write Joni off completely.

Her lyrics are brilliant.

Because of her gender, Joni has often been lumped in with Carole King and Carly Simon, fellow singer-songwriters.

King and Simon both have their merits, but they're nowhere close to Joni's level of sophistication. I think Laura Nyro (whose pop recording career was unfortunately brief) is much closer kin to Joni.

What is wrong with you OP??

Always loved her. My fave is Big Yellow Taxi: "They paved Paradise, put up a parking lot."

Both Sides Now is one of the greatest songs ever written. Joni was only 24 when she wrote it, amazingly.

@ R18

I gotta say she loses out to Carole King in comparison. But very, very few songwriters are greater than Carole King.

I love that Joni and Chaka Khan are BFFs.

R19 Presumably the same thing that's "wrong with you" -- our tastes differ. I take the blame. It was a stupid question to ask. Thanks to those who actually offered some genuine replies.

"Joni Mitchell's Vagina Here. Any Questions?" Is one of the best DL threads ever.

R25 oddly enough, that's the best answer on this thread yet.

I like a lot of her songs - pre 1980 - but I've always thought Big Yellow Taxi was trite.

It's catchy but the lyrics were nothing new.

Yup r25 Joni’s vajayjay had some powerful juju.

She’s not someone I would like as a friend but no one can compare with her talent. Sadly she is deep into dementia now.

OP, you are a philistine. And no one is forcing you to listen to, or appreciate, her.

I don't know how to convey it because it seems so obvious to me, but you should listen to Blue or For the Roses or Court and Spark (some people would add Hissing of Summer Lawns or Hejira although not me) and then compare her melodies, her lyrics, her arrangements to anyone else - she's like 1000% more complex and interesting and memorable. Who else could have written "Free Man in Paris," a song about David Geffen? But if you're expecting catchy pop songs you won't get it.

(Also, everyone has always felt this way and you just weren't aware of it. Jimmy Page said in the early 70s that he was in awe of her.)

Touché OP. I love Joan Baez and Diamonds and Rust is one of my all time favorite songs. However, I think Joni Mitchell was able to express a greater range of emotions in her singing and songwriting than Joan Baez or just about any other songwriter. I linked a song that expresses a very different emotional content than the previous song mentions.

My favorite reply on the Joni Mitchell's Vagina thread went something like "Joni fucked every man in the music business in the 70s except for Sylvester and the Village People."

She's a gifted songwriter and many of her lyrics are interesting.

River. So good.

Every singer for the past 15-20 years sounds to my old ears like a better-produced version of the Donkey Kong theme - brash, aggressive, and absolutely soulless.

[quote] You're obviously not a musician, OP.

Need he be to have an opinion on a musician?

Novelists are not the only ones who can properly appreciate novels, after all; nor are actors the only ones who can properly appreciate acting.

The lyrics to Blue are so powerful & poignant. Acid, blues and ass. Needles, guns and grass. Lots of laughs. Lots of laughs.

I always thought this might have been about her affair with James Taylor -- not sure if he kicked heroin by then.

Blue Songs are like tattoos You know I've been to sea before Crown and anchor me Or let me sail away Hey Blue And there is a song for you Ink on a pin Underneath the skin An empty space to fill in Well there're so many sinking Now you've got to keep thinking You can make it thru these waves Acid, booze, and ass Needles, guns, and grass Lots of laughs Lots of laughs Everybody's saying that hell's the hippest way to go well I don't think so, but I'm Gonna take a look around it though Blue I love you

Blue Here is a shell for you Inside you'll hear a sigh A foggy lullaby There is your song from me

Snakes & Ladders

Thanks for those of you who actually took the time to answer and offer suggestions; I'm looking forward to giving those a listen. As to the rest of you and your insights, confirmation then that it really all comes down to a matter of taste (the fact that I'm a philistine, need to "eat shit and die," and "clearly not a musician" notwithstanding-- but great food for thought!). Special mention goes to the individual who, presumably seriously, advised me that "everyone always felt this way" and that I "probably wasn't aware of it," citing Jimmy Page (whom I actually know). Not liking Joni Mitchell is not equivalent to expecting "catchy pop songs." I'm drowning in the profundity of it all! I'll take my giant feeder bag of oats and will gallop off to greener musical pastures.

[quote]Need he be to have an opinion on a musician?

No, r37, but he would *obviously* have a greater understanding/appreciation of Joni's musicianship.

I only have her Court & Spark album. It's great.

Didn't care enough about her subsequent albums to buy them.

Saw her at the Mid-South Coliseum (Memphis) in the mid-'70s. Good show.

[quote]"clearly not a musician" notwithstanding

Wasn't meant to be a slight, Doom. Musicians revere Joni. You may not like her sound but she was *much* more than her sound.

I wish I had a river I could skate away on, so I wouldn't have to listen to the OP.

paintings

If you're interested in her vocal technique.....

A few things about Joni Mitchell. When she first hit the scene, I wanted to fuck her so badly. Fuck me, she was so fucking cute. And so did all the music critic of the time. Her voice was beautiful and the tunes she wrote featured on her first three Reprise releases where so melodic and gorgeous. And on top of that she wrote the saddest song of the late 60's. Still sad today......

Night Ride Home

Here's the finished version of the song in R46. Incredible to see how it progressed.

Blue, Court and Spark, Hejira.

Three must owns.

One of my favourites.

r51...

"I could drink a case of" OP's response at r40.

She was so amazingly talented.

[quote]I gotta say she loses out to Carole King in comparison. But very, very few songwriters are greater than Carole King.

Carole wrote great pop songs. Joni wrote poetry set to music. Quite sophisticated music, often.

Two words...open tuning

What's open tuning?

This is beautiful.

If you sit down and really listen to Blue from start to finish and don't get it, you'll never get much.

I think Judy Collins was a much better vocalist and a better interpreter of her songs. Unfortunately, Joni hates her guts.

Why does Joni hate Judy?

This was Prince's favorite album.

r57...

[quote]When dealing with guitars, an open tuning is where the strings are tuned differently from “standard” tuning (EADGBE) in such a manner that strumming with no strings fingered or fretted generates a major or minor chord. For example, tuning a guitar to DGDGBD low to high is Open G, and strumming with no strings fretted sounds a G major chord in second inversion. Open tunings are often used when playing slide guitar, and were popular with early folk and blues players, and later utilized by rock guitarists with heavy blues influences, such as Keith Richards and the Blues Explosion. Open G was used on the Stones classic “Honky Tonk Women,” among others.

The Hissing of Summer Lawns is a brilliant, brilliant album. It’s my favorite of hers.

Weirdly I much prefer the version of Carey on Miles of Aisles than the one on Blue.

FWIW, my wife is a professional musician and she’s meh on Joni.

r64 - Not even a grudging respect for the complexity of her music, ElderLez?

Shadows and Light

She watched the recent special/awards show with me and she doesn’t hate her. But she’s not a fan.

And it’s not because she doesn’t like modern music. She loves that trance stuff.

Joni's no Janet Jackson, that's for sure. Joni can coo, but only JJ can whisper-coo.

Cactus Tree

Amelia

She's an egomaniac who has lasted long enough and had a handy health cataclysm that helped people forget how depressing, self-gazing and dull she is.

She just released a new album.

Don't you sound fun, r70?

Yeah, it's true. Judy Collins sings all her female contemporaries under the table

Judy Collins has the whitest pipes in the business.

The chainsmoking changed her voice drastically over time.

[quote]The chainsmoking changed her voice drastically over time.

Not necessarily to its detriment, r75.

[quote]IMHO, she's a greater and more wide-ranging talent than Bob Dylan. (And to my ears, more accessible.)

She's a better guitar player than Dylan as well, by his own admission.

Does she still smoke?

I love her. Most of my friends hate her. I sort of get it.

But for me she is a poet, sometimes tragic, sometimes quite witty, almost always engaging, especially in her work from the sixties and seventies.

When I was in my twenties, I didn’t even follow what Sweet Bird was getting at. But I have since experienced the song quite differently in my thirties, forties, and now, rather acutely, in my fifties. She was only 32 when she wrote it.

Whenever anyone asks me where to start with her, I suggest Court and Spark, but I’d be hard pressed to choose a favorite album.

I think she’s the greatest of the singer-songwriters to come out of that era, including Dylan and Leonard Cohen.

Seeing her perform again at Newport after nearly dying lifted my spirits in a way that I can’t put into words now.

[quote]Joan Baez has a beautiful voice.

This thread was wild.

I have only one of her albums, Court and Spark. I often forget about her when I choose music to listen to but when something of hers come on the radio it's like an old friend you haven't seen in a long time just walked in the room and you're very happy to see them.

That song at R75 was inspired by a story Joni read about unrequited gay male love: a lonely man moves to an apartment where he can watch his would-be lover pass by twice a day, every day, for decades.

A sad and beautiful song. Very Joni.

OP = Helen Keller

I absolutely love Joni Mitchell. Her rerecorded version of Both Sides Now that she did in her later years is nothing short of haunting. But to each his own, OP. We're not all supposed to like the same musicians any more than we are supposed to all like the same food or clothes. That's the beauty of it all - finding what speaks to you.

Yeah, R47...I wanted to ball the fucking shit out of her

R61 -- I cannot figure out if it's Joni hates Judy or Judy hates Joni actually. This article makes me head spin, now that I'm reading it:

[quote] I gotta say she loses out to Carole King in comparison. But very, very few songwriters are greater than Carole King.

Helen Keller lives!

Joni is my favorite popular music songwriter. Stevie Wonder and Stephen Sondheim battle for the 2 and 3 spots.

As a 10 year old, I was charged with choosing the music on the weekend for our house. It was non-stop from morning until late in the evening (we kids weren't allowed to watch Saturday cartoons or any tv during the day, for that matter). We were (are) a very musical family, and my parents had a large collection of albums that were as wide-ranging as BB King, John Coltrane, the Band, Pink Floyd, Vivaldi, Linda Ronstadt, Elton John, James Taylor and yes, Joni Mitchell, among many, many others.

I would put on Court and Spark and sing it from beginning to end. I knew the lyrics to each and every song on it, and especially loved Twisted and Car on a Hill. It played to me - from start to finish - like a good book (and I was an avid and voracious reader - the quintessential "bookworm" growing up); it told a story.

And I thought her voice was beautiful, lilting, wide-ranging, irreverent. We had a Judy Collins album, and maybe even a Joan Baez album, but neither of them could touch even the toes of that record. I loved that album, I mean, really LOVED it. I even loved the actual album itself -- the peach colored, papery album jacket with that neat, colorful and whimsical (to me) little illustration on the front. I read all the lyrics too, and maybe didn't understand them as an adult would, but realized they had some deeper meanings than just words I was reading or singing. 10 year old me loved singing them and wanted to be a singer BECAUSE OF HER. I would sing the lyrics to Twisted and met her up-and-down vocals, word for word and note for note. It was challenging and fun to sing with her and it made me feel good, like we were singing it together. She inspired me.

54 year old me never became a "famous" singer, but my love of singing has lasted my entire life, and she was largely the reason for that. And now, of course, I understand the deeper meanings in those words I read, memorized and sang 44 years ago. She wrote about life - all parts of it: the good, the bad, the sexy, the ugly, the funny, the inane, the sad, the devastating and the beautiful. She wrote the songs about Life, Love and All of It.

And that's why she's "kind of a big deal." To a lot of people.

And to me.

Thanks, Joni.

I don't know if I would've been interested in her if I'd come across her music as an adult. When I was a teen I bought Clouds, and Court and Spark, and they really resonated with me at that age. I was one of those artsy/poetry-writing teens, and I liked her other-worldly voice and poetic lyrics. I didn't listen to Blue all the way through until a few years ago and was just gobsmacked by how good it was. NYT did a really nice piece on it a while back.

When "Blue" came out, I found it a big disappointment. I figured Joni was done. Seems like all artists reach that point where their art takes a downswing after they move from artist to celebrity.

After about two listens, though, "Blue" became my favorite album of all time, and now, a million years later, it remains so.

Blue is really really up there in albums. She’s an artist, she never cared about being commercial, she was a true artist, but she still wanted the respect.

Joni is a painter who also happens to sing.

This is from one of my favorites:

I'm feelin' electric tonight / Cruisin' down the coast, goin' about 99 / Got my bad baby by my heavenly side / I know if I go, I'll die happy tonight / Oh, my God, I feel it in the air / Telephone wires above are sizzlin' like a snare / Honey, I'm on fire, I feel it everywhere / Nothin' scares me anymore

OP to really appreciate the artistry of Joni Mitchell I suggest not listening to her after a big meal, or a couple glasses of wine, especially not during long distance night drives, or in any warm soothing climate. She best sitting in a cold room, sipping coffee and staring out at the rain, but not when feeling suicidal.

This is what it’s come to? We’re EXPLAINING Joni Mitchell…?!

Lemme handle this.

OP? Fuck off.

To me at this point in life:

Joni Mitchell = Aretha Franklin = The Mona Lisa

Great artist or art that are beyond reproach that I’m just not into.

I feel the same way about Charles Dickens.

(Have you seen the Mona Lisa in person R97? I felt the same way prior to going to the Louvre. Some paintings just don’t translate well to pictures)

I love complex melodies and sophisticated lyrics, and Joni's seem like an ersatz version thrown together by someone with more ambition than talent. Nothing wrong with that, save for the idol worship. I want to get it, tried to get through Blue many times over many years but Case of You is the only track I manage to find somewhat satisfying and surprising musically and lyrically. Put differently, it's the best version of the same song she's written and recorded over and over again. I'll take Carole King, Laura Nyro, Joan Baez, or Linda Ronstadt any day. But I do appreciate the fact that she has managed to create a musical style that is totally unique to her.

Can't find a link sadly, but 30 Rock's take on Joni just about sums it up.

OP, Here's a question—What compels you to expose your absolute lack of taste?

Joni who?

LIttle Green makes me cry every time, knowing it's about giving up her daughter for adoption. "Child with a child pretending Weary of lies you are sending home So you sign all the papers in the family name You're sad and you're sorry, but you're not ashamed Little Green, have a happy ending"

*

Judy Collins:

[quote]“I remember hearing something about Joni not liking my version of the song, but I couldn’t care less,” she humorously told Vulture. “I’m sure she feels that way about a lot of people who sing her songs. I’m sorry she didn’t have the hit, but I’m sure glad I did!”

MEOW!

R101 Never thought of it in those terms. Same as you, I guess....?

You're so square...

Let's Sing Out '65

Passion Play

I'd like to suck her toes

Best response is R16. Baez is not a songwriter- she is a mostly folk singer. Joni is one of the greatest songwriters ever- both music and lyrics. Her use of major minor and inventive chords is singular. Her melodies underline her lyrics. She is a genius- and difficult woman, but a genius.

Is the OP really this stupid?

FUN FACT: There was never a time when Joni Mitchell 'got to Woodstock." She was supposed to, but she flew to NYC from CA with Crosby, Stills and Nash, and at their hotel there were already reports of the humongous crowds, the unpredictable weather, etc. So CS&N went, laving Joni in the safe confines of her hotel. At that point no one knew that Woodstock would be the love-fest it ended up becoming (because EVERYONE was high as a kite on LSD), or, as the poster for the documentary tagline e put it, 'Three days of peace, love and music."

And as someone mentioned upthread about her songs not having top-40, catchy appeal, 'You turn me on, I'm a radio" was her response to the music bigwigs telling her she needed to write catchier tunes. So she writes a catchy song about catchy tunes. Does that make it meta?

Yes the OP is both stupid and a miserable troll. Golly gee, Joni Mitchell. I JUST DON'T GET HER!! And I'm certainly not going to inform myself before I post nasty miserable snark.

I AM JUST GOING TO CUNT. Because opening a thread with CUNTING PROVOCATIVE SNARK will get tons of response.

See? Winning!

'67

'94

Next up from OP: "Maria Callas. Why? Some ugly opera singer from olden times. Who cares?!!! Opera sucks and it's boring as fuck and you can't even follow the stories cause it's in Hungarian or something like that. Why are gay men into it? And that old dead hag? SERIOUS QUESTION."

R116 So clever! And so much original snark! (🙄) That said, you're (oddly) right; not a fan of Callas. Nothing to do with your platitudinous, pedestrian attempts at humor or desperate attempts at kudos from the manic Swifty-style Joni acolytes in this thread . Just not up my alley. More to the point -- why do you care? I'll sing the praises of Renata Tebaldi and Monsterrat Caballé any day. Wanna chat about the subtleties of individual preferences? Didn't think so. (Neither do I.)

r117 is such a tiresome bore

If I was a very skinny drag queen, my name might be Boni Bitchell

R119 And yet you still haven't tired of me.

Is James Taylor, my scag jones husband the subject of this very melodic tune?

radio

Its the incredible lyrics and her fearlessness.

My god, the song the Hissing of Summer Lawns makes me feel like I lived in southern CA in the early-mid 70's (I adore that entire album-its amazing)

44, and she clearly inspired my all time faves- Tori Amos and Kate Bush-

She brings me to another time and place, and generally a place that I have been obsessed by since a kid-southern CA in its PRIME.

And Harry's Song is AMAZING as it brought me to NYC in the 70's...

She is a true artist- not a likeable/charming woman- but a talent that we will never see again- in time or space. She will represent the 60's/70's for me- in all of my lifetimes. A special lady.

[quote]She brings me to another time and place, and generally a place that I have been obsessed by since a kid-southern CA in its PRIME.

Before Southern CA became an overcrowded third world dump.

r125- Probably.

(And its also my deluded dream- a place in my mind only- that probably never existed)

OP, you're entitled to your own personal taste.

I actually appreciate you wording it as "I just don't get it". Nothing wrong with that.

What I can't stand is when people say things like "The Beatles SUCK, man!", or "Bob Dylan is a talentless hack!", or "Billie Holliday couldn't sing for shit". Um, no. You may not appreciate them, but that doesn't mean the importance of their artistry deserves to be denigrated for the sake of your internet contrarian "hot take".

Personally, I didn't really "get" Bob Dylan for a long time...until one day something clicked, and I did.

And the 99.9% of Beach Boys songs make me want to puke, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize that they were a unique and important band in rock history.

Anyway, I personally love Joni Mitchell. The only albums of hers I own are Blue, The Hissing of Summer Lawns, Hejira, Dog Eat Dog, Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm, and Shine (her final studio album from 2006). Each one is stunning in its own way (including the much-maligned "Dog Eat Dog", which I absolutely love, for some reason.)

That era is part of LA's fabled history like Hollywood in its heyday. I can still find it magical. Same with NYC. It's about the history and the ghosts.

[quote] And Harry's Song is AMAZING as it brought me to NYC in the 70's...

Harry's HOUSE, and yes, it is amazing. In the late 90s/early 00s, I spent my long commute to downtown Los Angeles listening to Joni's mid-70s CDs -- "Court and Spark", "Hissing of Summer Lawns", "Miles of Aisles", " Don Juan's Reckless Daughter" and "Hejira." I really hated my job and my life back then, and her music is quite possibly the only reason I am still around.

sorry 129- I am basically drunk. Thank you!! R 124 here

Everyone, read those lyrics to Harry's House...

Its beyond. It brings your cells into someone else's life.

Essentially we are all one- And this song let's you know that-

You can close your eyes...

Did Sweet Baby James perform that song with every famous woman he slept or lived with? Lol. That's a great version though.

[quote]Personally, I didn't really "get" Bob Dylan for a long time...until one day something clicked, and I did.

Same here. I mean, I didn't get him for decades, and I'm a pretty passionate popular music aficionado of the past 50 years of output. But when I finally got into him - wow. I really "got" it.

I still adore his late 70s marital discord period, Desire/Blood on the Tracks and the Rolling Thunder Revue. Peak Dylan imo. I still can't get into his 60's output, which is what everyone else seems to worship. Tedious, to me. But then, I also like Knocked out an Loaded, go figure.

I get it OP.

I am born and raised in Canada;

Joni, Leonard Cohen, and other similar mediocrities are part of a long line of mediocre types pushed upon the country and the world due to strange canadian content laws which prop up crappy musicians/actors/singers under the guise of helping protect “canadian culture”.

this, combined with strange corrupt government arts grants provided to connected/nepotistic figures who coast on such things over their entire careers results in an odd situation up here.

you can figure out who isn’t fully doing the canadian arts grant thing by examining who ends up moving to the US. Basically 25 percent of hollywood and a large number of high earning pop stars etc are canadian. They’ve realized that they have the talent and popularity to make it on a world stage. plus they can rake in even more money via the grant system here. they don’t all do it but a lot of them do. (ryan reynolds is an example)

Actors and singers who stay in canada tend to be less talented, less lucky, or less motivated.

Joni ran around in black face for a while.

Can anyone answer R122. I'm curious too

I don’t care how you unpack it, the music, song after song is SO boring. It just is. There is no soul. The soul of a song is not in the lyrics, it’s in the music and the tone of the vocalist. Her music is soulless and I hate storyteller song writers. They’re exhausting. No one wants to hear about a white woman’s problems. I’m sorry. They just don’t.

A case of you

[quote]No one wants to hear about a white woman’s problems. I’m sorry. They just don’t.

Apparently they do.

Nobody cares about Joni running around in blackface like a total asshole?

Keep shovelin' for dirt, r140.

No not really r140

Who's problems do people want to hear about, R137?

Your A-ok with your dreary heroine dressing up as a black man for some reason- authenticity?

Assholes.

^You’re^

Now stomp your widdle foot, r144, lol.

Performative outrages is better stirred on Twitter, R144.

No, her blackface act was. Call me performative, say I’m stamping my feet but Joni is the pig and mocking me shows your asshole colors. Good day.

Pardon, her blackface act was repugnant.

She's always been a crazy witch. The music is solid, though.

Barangrill

Her voice is ugly, so are her nostrils. Can’t get past the voice.