24 years ago today we lost John John and his wife and sister-in-law

It was a heartbreaking tragedy. I loved JFK, Jr., and I miss him. May his soul rest in peace.

I was coming out of that hideous Tammy Cruise film Eyes Wide Shut at Century City when they told us he was missing. Strange thing is no one was surprised.

How and why exactly did he crash? I remember reading somewhere that he wasn't a very experienced pilot.

The shy was so blue that day.....

This man was truly good looking. I even mean it non sexual. He just was. From what I’ve read his spirit was as fine as his looks. I think he would have become like a new age MLK or Ghandi just in an Uber capitalist way. He was too nice to have ever become president. My mom adored him and for some reason I miss him too.

Remembering his nipples and treasure trail on this sad day.

RIP.

R5 the world would agree with you. He was known for his beauty before anything.

Everyone loved him. Especially people who were adults when he was born and who watched him grow up. They adored “John John”.

I get offended for him when people say his nephew is his doppelgänger.

It is true, we all adored him, and both men and women wanted to fuck him. He was stupid you say? I’ll ponder that later, I would have jumped if he said jump.

I’m pretty sure most men didn’t wanna fuck him unless they were gay dude.

The cause of the crash was JFK Jrs arrogance and lack of training in that plane under those conditions. He was a scumbag to bring passengers with him.

Weren’t him and his wife fighting all day before the takeoff also?

He was told he should hire a pilot and refused.

R12 I heard she was very late to leave, as she was waiting for a cocaine drop off.

I bought Michael Bergin’s book about his history with Carolyn and his affair with her but someone stole it and I never bought it again 😂

I still wanna read it over 20 years later.

He shouldn’t have been vaccinated.

Will the Kennedy curse take out RFK too? Feels inevitable.

R10, where are you right now? You’re on a gay website mother fucker!

[quote] From what I’ve read his spirit was as fine as his looks. I think he would have become like a new age MLK or Ghandi just in an Uber capitalist way.

LOL!!

I remember when Carly Simon spilled the tea about her friend Jackie being terrified and against her son dating Madonna. She hated it.

I'm firmly of the belief that if Jackie had been alive, he would NEVER have married Carolyn Bessette.

Jackie would have never tolerated someone that trashy.

Jackie was sure as fuck right about Madonna.

R21 AGREED!

R20, you’re absolutely correct. Jackie not only protected her son, she protected him from himself. His life started to unravel after her death. If Jackie was alive, he wouldn’t have married Carolyn. Also, he would’ve never flow that airplane that led to his death.

[quote] Jackie would have never tolerated someone that trashy.

I'm not sure he would have listened had she objected. He was older when he married Bessette.

Wow, 24 yrs ago. Feels like yesterday. He never should have flown that plane when he wasn't instrument trained to fly at night. He seemed like a good guy and he certainly was good looking. I remember seeing photos of them in an argument and he looked so upset. I also don't think Jackie would have liked Caroline, but still such a tragedy. A tragedy for Caroline and Lauren and their family, too. 2 daughters dead because he wouldn't listen and flew that plane anyway. Terrible.

To be fair, they still got in the plane. Had they said no and refused he would have had to hire a pilot.

Jackie was a brilliant concubine, just look at Madonna and you tell me Jackie didn’t have her number? AGREED on CBK, never would have happened on Jackie’s watch. She kept him on a short leash as all wise mothers do with stupid sons. And I loooooved John-John, I say stupid as a term of endearment. He wore his keys on a chain because of his ADD. His dumbness made him even more fuckable and normalized him, it was HOT.

And again, most of America wanted him, maybe even the straight men too, that’s how smoking hot this man was!!!!!! There is *no one* alive who comes close to him. If there is, name them! There just isn’t. Maybe there’s a hot Italian Prince I don’t know about….we no longer seem to produce smoldering, masculine yet metro sexual men anymore. He was both masc and fem at the same time, go watch his speech at the art gallery in Providence. The man was ahead of his time on gay rights. Many rumors he was closeted, I think it is possible with his theater background.

It was very sad, but...

It was a dickheaded decision...He was a newly licensed pilot with only a few months experience.

It was reckless.

He had a hot ass but he could not fly in weather.

[quote]To be fair, they still got in the plane. Had they said no and refused he would have had to hire a pilot.

Why, you could say it's not even his fault they died! It's actually their own fault!

R28, 100%!! But that is precisely why Jackie refused to let this man fly, she KNEW he had very poor impulse control *and* that he was accident-prone. A mother always knows. Do you are right, it was reckless. But that doesn’t make him an evil man, it just makes him a guy with poor impulse control and lack of judgment. That is also why the Kennedy clan was forced to give the Bessette family a massive settlement, he was liable which exposed the value of his estate. They are lucky the mother didn’t fight them harder, she most certainly could have torn apart his legacy, so Lady Luck was on their side with regards to the settlement.

He’d be 62 this year.

R32, he would’ve looked much more like is father. How ironic.

He was hot and not so smart. What was Carolyn’s Rx for?

My mother used to see him rollerblading all the time around Manhattan in the late 80s and early 90s. She used to joke how she wanted to throw a branch in front of him so he falls so she could rush over to help him up 😂 like something in a romcom.

All the women in my family would go on about how gorgeous he was, and my mother said he was even better in person.

Didn’t Carolyn delay the whole flight because she needed her nails done?

When they died we went to pay our respects outside where he lived. There was a line going down blocks. And we waited there for over 3 hours. Tons of reporters etc. around too.

R36 Coke. Waiting for coke.

Yes r36. She wanted an exact shade of lavender and had her nail tech redo her pedi thrice.

He was an idiot and arrogant and egotistical with poor judgment but also mostly a good egg who wanted the best for everyone and someone who truly believed in equality for all and didn’t just claim it. He was outspoken about how black people (black men in particular) are mistreated and targeted by authorities in this country back in the late 80s/early 90s and he was outspoken about injustice to the gays as well back when it would harm people to stand by the gay community, especially a man. He was a good egg.

Oh good - it’s very important that we rehash every iota of his life and the accident every year.

R41 you’re more than welcome to not comment and scroll by.

Wasn’t he fucking that Brazilian TV personality XUXA? I think he mom nipped that in the bud too.

I thought you were joking, R39.

Many believe their marriage was already on the rocks by the time they died and had they not died that night that they would have been divorced within a short few years.

I remember seeing this. It was called Three Funerals and a Wedding.

It was a combination of factors. His wife was very late, I think about 90 minutes or so. He was offered to take a copilot but declined. As he was approaching their destination near Martha's Vineyard the daylight was dwindling. But also haze was accumulating, making the distinction between the water and land obscured. He wasn't certified for instruments rating license yet, so he had to rely on visual flying. But the conditions caused spatial disorientation. If they left earlier as scheduled, if he accepted the copilot offer, or if there were no haze they would not have been in that situation.

An accident? Are the jars alright?

They took off at 8:38 pm. It was already getting dark during takeoff

Dataloungers revealing themselves to be Qanon. JFK, Jr., UFO's... makes sense since many are housebound Trump voters.

A drama about what the surviving Besette family endured will probably be made at some point.

I just read a brief article about surviving sister Lisa. Besette.... the major point made is that the family is very private, most people that would meet Lisa have no clue who she is.

Too bad it wasn't his Uncle Robert.

R12 I don’t understand how such ostentatiously rich and well educated people can be so impulsive. I mean planes are the safest means of travel but if something goes wrong it’s likely imminent death. Makes you wonder what type of happy pills these folks be taking that they never fear death.

R49 not getting. In August it was dark at that time.

A few years ago I watched a Youtube video about this flight.

Non sensational, but focused on the flight itself, trying to determine exactly what happened that caused the plane to crash.

Went step by step outlining what course he would have followed that night, radio contacts, etc.

Told some of this story by showing the inside of the cockpit of the same model of plane,

The conclusion reached was that he was given a course to enter into the plane's system for the landing approach. (He was dropping off his sister in law first.) and he inadvertently put the wrong numbers into the system.

Sorry, I don't have the link to the video and it was a few years ago I saw it.

My impression of the video was that it was a serious attempt to discover what went wrong on the flight itself that resulted in the crash.

I wonder if they retrieved the plane from the water in an attempt to find out what happened. If so, there might be information out there that confirms or refutes what the video concluded.

I worked near his place in Tribeca. I once saw him ride by on a bike. There was something peaceful about our American prince just gliding by. He hadn’t tried to disguise himself in any way.

What I have never understood about the plane crash is this: I know JFK Jr. wasn't instrument rated, BUT isn't the one basic thing ANY pilot MUST learn is to keep their eye on the altimeter and trust what that says rather than their own perception of whether or not they are descending and how high above the ground (or the water) they are flying? How could he not have noticed the altimeter indicating the plane was rapidly descending. Can anyone explain this to me?

I read once the theory that he and Carolyn started bickering and he lost view of the tiny lights on the island. After that, he didn't know what was up or down. Just flying into nowhere.

R56 And only in NYC could he have done that.

He never died! He's still alive and is helping Trump get elected again!

I feel most sorry for Lauren Bessette. Her brother-in-law was reckless and her sister was chaotic…all she wanted was a free ride to Cape Cod.

"He was stupid you say? I’ll ponder that later, I would have jumped if he said jump."

"There was something peaceful about our American prince just gliding by."

There are more Mary!s in this thread than in a Catholic Church.

Found the video I mentioned above at R55. See link below.

A correction to my post above.

John accidentally mistakenly tuned to a single digit off for the Martha's Vineyard ATIS system frequency. (Automated Terminal Information System) The correct frequency was 126.25. He tuned to 127.25.

The video, made by an experienced pilot, puts the viewer in the pilot's seat of the aircraft on the night and explains the flight and what happened.

Well worth seeing.

R53, rich people, especially those as universally known as JFK, Jr., understandably prefer to fly privately. That’s even more true today.

Too beautiful to fly commercial.

As I’ve mentioned in these pages many times, my gorgeous sister met JFK, Jr., at the ‘96 Democratic convention. She was so disappointed to find “no there, there” & was immediately turned off by him. Kevin Costner, whom she also then met, was a different story all together. Although he had never particularly been on her radar, she found him in person to be surprisingly handsome & extraordinarily sexy.

R65 why didn’t they just drive.

R66 was your sister groupie whore. I’m just saying Kevin Costner can sniff em a mile away. He is a whore as well.

[quote]I read once the theory that he and Carolyn started bickering and he lost view of the tiny lights on the island. After that, he didn't know what was up or down. Just flying into nowhere.

What nightmares are made of.

Other than Diana, Princess of Wales, losing John John was the worst tragedy of recent generations.

Damn, he was handsome.

R70 What about Kobe?

Hubris is the fall of many. The worst death of our generation is still Abraham Lincoln. If that man had lived a lot of our troubles would have been settled by now.

R72 Didn't he rape a dog?

John john had a cute ass, but it wasn’t smart enough to fly a plane.

Fag!

R58 I 100% believe that. She was fucking nuts. She definitely started a fight with him over something petty, she probably did it in the car all the time and didn’t think anything of doing it on the plane. Crazy bitch fucked around and found out.

He was a close cousin, & still so dearly missed....

R73 Oh my you are quite old. You be drinking vampire blood?

R78 is the Real Housewife, what’s her name?

R72. Kobe's death was shocking and a tragedy, but nothing close to Diana and John-John. Doesn't even compare. Diana is the all-time tragedy, maybe even more so than President Kennedy.

Brooke Shields said she met him in Aspen or somewhere and he turned on the charm. But when they were alone and she balked at fucking him, he turned cold and ignored her the rest of her trip.

R81 I think many Americans and sports fans would disagree. Kobe is the most tragic death of the 21st century.

[quote]He had a hot ass but he could not fly in weather.

Had a good laugh, R29. Awesome twist on a familiar DL saying.

[quote]Diana is the all-time tragedy, maybe even more so than President Kennedy.

No way.

John John never really did anything did he? I mean, he was good looking, and his dad got his head blown off, but he himself never accomplished much did he?

Huge tragedy- he wasn’t instrument trained and he recklessly flew in very tricky Island haze conditions- his marriage was in trouble (they were living apart)- she was a high strung difficult and exotic beauty.

R86 He was a NYC district attorney and created his own magazine.

I'm loving this thread. All the conjecture about his life and his mother's influence on him. Jackie was a whore. People forget that and attempt to make her a saint. If she was so interested in 'protecting' her son, why did she marry Onassis and allow JJ to access that pig's influence? She had enough money to keep her kids in a great lifestyle; she didn't need to trade them into that lifestyle. JJ was gorgeous and she loved him, yes. But let's stop making up shit about that family.

They were just Irish trash at the end of all that drama.

R89 Really? I never knew that Jackie Onassis got around.

One of the most beautiful men who ever lived! That smile!

[quote] I think many Americans and sports fans would disagree. Kobe is the most tragic death of the 21st century.

R83. Sorry, but the deaths of Diana and JFK Jr were much bigger and touched society and a worldwide audience much more than Kobe Bryant. Yes, some sports fans may disagree--and Kobe's death was a tragedy, but that doesn't affect the news value and enormous impact of deaths of Diana and John-John. Kobe's death doesn't come close.

Yes, Kobe's death did occur in the 21st century (2020), and Diana (1997) and John-John (1999) died in the 20th century. Whatever, all that doesn't have much to do with the tea in China.

“It was a summer day and I just fired up the modem…”

People think when a person dies and they think all the world grieves, it means everyone in China, Italy, Russia, people in Samoa and Ghana and everyone in between starts crying and praying for their souls. Get over your Anglo-Saxon viewpoint. No one really shrugged when the ditzi Diana and cokehead Jr Passed

Still So Terribly sad

R93 well actually I’m pretty sure they miss Kobe in China. They probably didn’t know who the hell JFK Jr. was.

R95. It was estimated that 2.5 billion people watched Diana's funeral when she died in 1997. At the time, the population of the world was 5,906,481,261. So, almost half the world were moved enough to take interest in Diana. And her funeral was long before social media, so it was an enormous audience for the time.

I don't know the viewing audience for JKF Jr, obviously considerably less than Diana's funeral. But Diana's viewership was a worldwide event and went well beyond your disparaging "Anglo-Saxon viewpoint."

R95. Similar to Princess Diana, Michael Jackson also had about 2.5 billion viewers watch his funeral. The world's population in 2009 was 6,898,305,908. So about one-third of the world tuned in when Jackson died, and his audience total (unlike Diana's) had the advantage of social media. Diana had about half the world watching without social media. Both were sizable and significant audiences, again disproving your "Anglo-Saxon viewpoint."

I remember sitting in traffic coming back from the beach & hearing about it on the *radio* and constantly searching for updates. At the time it seemed like such a tragedy (though of course I was younger & much less cynical), but knowing what we know now, it seems inevitable that the fool & the psycho were going to kill each other at some point & if they hadn't died in a plane crash, it would've been something else.

I posted this to the "Celebrities we love who aren't as nice as we'd expect them to be" thread a couple of years ago. Worth reposting:

[quote]I read this story when it first appeared in VF, so the details are a bit fuzzy -- JFK, Jr. nearly got himself and a girlfriend killed by taking an unnecessary risk. He left a part of his kayak at home when they went on vacation to Jamaica. It was the part that keeps water from getting into the kayak and sinking it. No problem -- he thinks it's OK to take it out in the surf. Very bad idea. After coming within a hair of drowning, the couple makes it to the beach. First thing John John says? "Don't tell my mother."

They replaced him with Leonardo DiCaprio in the Sex & The City episode where Samantha gets black balled by some high society bitch for fucking her husband.

The original episode has Samantha doing her own hard labor charity shovel-work to break ground for Javier House. She looks up and John-John (off camera stand-in) reaches out his hand like a savior and her reputation is restored.

That scene has now been revised and the hand now belongs to Leonardo.

Lisa, the surviving Bessette sister and Lauren’s twin, lived quietly in Michigan.

^lives

[quote] “I saw John, my captain: John, who was never afraid. Unable to be still, he paced the beach muttering something, his eyes wide and to the ground. ‘Don’t tell Mummy, don’t tell Mummy,’ he repeated like a mantra to no one,” Haag writes. “Mummy wasn’t there, and he wasn’t talking to me. I could have passed my hand in front of his eyes and he would not have blinked. It was then that the danger we had been in really hit me. John was afraid.”

He’s verbal stimming.

John F Kennedy likely had ADHD and Jackie probably had Aspergers. John John could have inherited both.

JFK, Jr.’s personal assistant wrote in her book that he was constantly misplacing, losing and forgetting.

R106, She also wrote that he was disgusted while watching the Monica Lewinsky/Barbara Walters interview and the semen stained blue dress was discussed.

Not a sexist comment at all, R68! My sister was a hard-working, successful businesswoman. As for her beauty, I once met a man who immediately volunteered to me that she was “one of the most beautiful woman walking the face of the earth.”

Although high-functioning autism spectrum disorders hadn’t been identified yet, Jackie would have been cognizant of John’s unusual behaviors and would have overprotected him.

MARY, R81!!!!

[quote]It is true, we all adored him, and both men and women wanted to fuck him. He was stupid you say?

The best of both worlds, when you think about it. Lightly.

No way did Jackie have autism!

Getting in a plane piloted by someone who failed the NY bar exam 2 times certainly was a choice. But then, who amongst us hasn’t made a fool out of ourselves just because some hot guy showed us attention?

R110. I beg your pardon, my dear.

[Quote] How and why exactly did he crash?

Hubris

R91 - Likely R89 wrote *whore* because it was assumed she married Onassis for his money, not to imply she was promiscuous.

R95 [Quote] On Sept. 6, an estimated 2.5 billion people around the world watched the funeral on television.

From another thread:

“Jackie probably was on the spectrum. She suffered severe social anxiety, had obsessive tendencies, an eating disorder, a compulsive spender, a chain smoker, went under electroshock therapy, etc. She also was extremely traumatized by both her husband's death and her brother-in-law's death but her obsessive and rote tendencies predates that. She loved to read and study which was her escape from the stress of being a rich man's wife in the public eye. She was extremely intelligent but because being born into an upper middle-class bourgeois family that drilled into her to "marry up" and other misogynistic crap, she took it to the extreme and became almost a parody of a rich man's wife. ASD cannot do nuances well, they tend to go all-or-nothing. At least, she got to pursue publishing after Onassis died with all the money that was left over, she began to loosen after that and hung out with Andy Warhol and other artists and celebs.”

Additionally autism spectrum disorders are highly hereditary and have shown up elsewhere in the Bouvier lineage

R117 see R98.

R118, Jackie suffered from PTSD after JFK’s assassination and sought counsel from the Catholic Church when her suicidal thoughts and alcohol consumption became rampant.

She was just pissed that Lee Harvey Oswald deprived her of an experience she had earned.

Additionally, JFK Jr. had a relationship with Daryl Hannah who is open about her ASD. He found her fascinating.

R117, those who grieved so over the top predictably moved on & got over their loss in fairly record time.

Very few people have questioned this iconic image.

But he’s mimicking. Mimicry is one of the hallmarks of ASD in children.

Additionally, this is not a nice thing to say but

Crashing a plane into the ocean because you were too stubborn to fly with a copilot despite being inexperienced with night flying is sort of the thing that would happen to someone on the ADHD/ Autism spectrum

R125, John, Jr. had just been shown by his father to salute at the then-recent Veteran’s Day ceremony at Arlington Cemetery. Immediately before this picture, Jackie had reached down to whisper in his ear to remind him to salute as he had just learned.

I remember Clinton ordering both the U.S. Navy and Coast Guard to use all available resources and to widen the search, then the U.S. Navy was used to conduct his funeral at sea for the entire Kennedy clan.

I was just about to begin law school and of course being young and idealistic, I was pissed that the full resources of our military would be used when any other American citizen would receive, at most the requisite Coast Guard search and likely, eventually be listed as "lost at sea". But of course Kennedy, even though he was a private person, was wealthy, attractive and famous, flying his own private plane when he had no business doing it. And yet, the world had to stop not only to find him, but he gets his own flotilla for burial at sea. (okay, not flotilla, but still.).

Oh, and for those who weren't around or don't remember, there was NO autopsy. The Kennedys are violently opposed to autopsy when their kin die suddenly/violently, (or passengers of their kin die suddenly/violently). The Bessette family were reportedly forced to sign NDA's in exchange for a nice settlement from the Kennedy family.

I tried to thinking of a more Autistic death than “crashing plane into the ocean because of stubbornness.”

The only two I could think of were absentmindedly walking into an open elevator shaft, and paying $250,000 to go see the wreck of the Titanic in an unsafe vessel.

R118, is that quote from another thread based on any evidence? I got to know Mrs Onassis pretty well and she was a friend of my Mom’s. She was not remotely on the spectrum and the rest of the quote is an over heated speculation. Lots of women of her generation and “class” smoked and spent a lot of money. In fact, just about everyone of my Mom’s friends. Bottom line is she was very financially savvy. Sheesh.

Thank you for posting that report r11. He’d made that trip 35 times, but only once at night without an instructor. Arrogance? Frustration because they were already running so late? We’ll never know.

I saw him at the Democratic Convention in 1988. He'd given a speech and he was leaving the convention center, , and walking down a hallway with a gaggle of people around him, and I was struck by how tall he was, and in person, he really was beautiful. Not beefy either, but more on the lean side. I would have loved to meet him, but it was impossible.

Rumors were that John John was being pressured to run for the Senate. It was an effort to block Hillary from running. New York Democratic Party infighting thing. But Hillary campaigned and worked her ass off to raise money and turn out the vote for the Dems. She earned the right to run, even if JFK, Jr. was prettier.

They call him John John because one part was over here and the other part was over there

#132, we could have had a threesome..

Did the aircraft explode in the air amd then splattered into the ocean or did it break apart upon impact?

They were found strapped tonthe seats? I can't imagine how horrified they must have been as the aircraft tumbled down.

Was there any audio ever related of that terrible tragedy? Inflight audio? Or description of it?

No it hit the water intact comme ça

The aircraft didn’t break apart in the air and tumble down.

Because Cokehead Bessette-Kennedy was late to the airport, JFK Jr ended up flying over water in the dark…which requires an extensive reliance on instruments. However, he seemed to be relying on sight and developed spatial disorientation.

Anyway, while there’s a chance something seemed off, the descent wasn’t rapid and the impact was sudden.

[quote] but never arrived.

Oh, they arrived. In many pieces.

I mean no offense but I can’t think of anything scarier than an inexperienced pilot with ADHD night flying for the first time.

Also, the actor in the recreation is a fucking hottie.

I believe you, r108.

I shared your sister's reaction you describe at r66, although, the source was my TV screen, not like your sister's in-person encounter.

When JFK, Jr. agreed to be interviewed by Larry King and then Oprah, or whatever order the interviews were in, I eagerly tuned in.

It took watching both interviews because I wanted to be sure of my reaction, but I couldn't avoid the truth of it.

JFK, Jr. had no charisma or excitement to his personality. Take away the extraordinary head of hair, face, body, family name and money and what you're left with was a crashing bore. No wonder CBK and he were going to divorce.

She must've been bored outta her fucking mind with him, and trust me, once you bore your partner, especially a woman like CBK, who had access to all the straight, gay, bi, what-have-you men in the world, they're gone. Maybe not physically yet, but soon.

And, in that instance, the old observation, "No matter how beautiful a woman is, somebody is tired of fucking her", the "her" could be substituted for "him".

Still, I'll always remember watching the Democratic National Convention, live, when JFK, Jr took the stage to introduce his Uncle Ted Kennedy.

The words "Took my breath away" are usually only a figure of speech, but not in that in moment. My immediate reaction to that vision of the extraordinary looking JFK, Jr. was anything but ordinary.

I almost gasped seeing him, he was that fucking gorgeous.

What R138 said - Apparently he had spatial disorientation and wasn't able to figure out the horizon from the ground/water. He couldn't rely on sight due to the weather/time of day and apparently he wasn't as familiar with the instruments as he should have been. That also doesn't mean there wasn't an issue with the plane though.

I remember briefly hearing that the plane was equipped with cockpit recording devices which I don't think were required in planes of that size back them. (I could be wrong on that though). But, again, as with all things Kennedy, no real officials were ever allowed to get close to investigating the crash. No recording was ever acknowledged. No autopsies were done, even though legally required, (the family argued something about it being over water and how laws didn't apply or whatever). The whole thing is a mystery. Okay, maybe he was drunk, high or just an inexperienced pilot, who really cares in the end? But the Kennedy's, backed up by Clinton, didn't have to answer questions or allow any questions to be answered via a traditional NTSB investigation. And yet, it was never challenged. Nobody of note ever called them out for it.

He was not too bright. This was heavily implied by several who knew him, and I've seen at least one credible documentary about him. Those who were closed to him couched it as *he was very forgetful".

He was dumb and arrogant. And his wife was likely ready to leave him at the time that they died.

[Quote] He was told he should hire a pilot and refused.

It was stated somewhere, don't recall where, that his actual flight instructor insisted on joining him for safety reasons and he declined. During his mid-flight spacial disorientation, if he had the experience he needed to fly at night and was certified on his instruments which he was NOT, he would've known to trust his instruments and been able to use them to navigate. Any pilot who is flying over complete darkness with no visual markers knows how to do this. He had to have known he didn't have enough experience to fly at night.

He's not dead. He and Hugo Chavez are going to come out of hiding and usher in a new era!

That’s all true r143, and that’s because they had Teddy.

He was a fool, too stupid to live.

Yeah I bet they were fighting when they crashed. Carolyn sounded like a right cunt. What a disaster that marriage was.

She wasn't fighting with him, R148. She was screaming along with her sister because they knew they were going down.

They were at 2000 feet rapidly descending, hitting the water with a significant impact, and when found the fusilage was crushed, one wing was broken off and the tail was broken off. John was recovered first. They they found Caroline and Lauren in two separate places all of they were still strapped into their seats. Sen Kennedy and his two sons were on the ship that received the bodies, so he could bring John and his wife and sister in law home. They were autopsied before being turned over to the families. John's family was allowed a Naval burial at sea. Don't know if Caroline was with him or if she was buried in Connecticut with her sister.

Can you imagine being the Bessette family and losing two of your family members, all because of that arrogant idiot?

Why's everyone so nasty toward Caroline Bessette? Why was she a "bitch" and "cunt"? Because she was a woman who likely didn't take his shit or dared to speak her mind to the golden child of Camelot? I don't remember any particular rumors of her being difficult or nasty or cruel, etc. and yet, somehow, some unknown force seems to have written her history as being such.

The Bessette family settled for $15 million.

R152, it was jealousy because all those who shit-talked her wanted to fuck the golden boy themselves.

I wanna know more about his bi experimentations.

Well to all reports she used cocaine when she was working for one of the fashion houses, a big time user, and she was on pills for anxiety and depression, and other shit, and she had screaming temper tantrums.Some of you people talk about John being a spoiled golden boy, but the Caroline was diva. And she was getting a mani/pedi and was running late, which is why they left at a later time than planned. John is not at fault for being raised in a privileged environment. He tried to live a purposeful life, and to all reports he was a kind person and a thoughtful person. I never knew or met John, but I did work briefly with Sen. Kennedy when he conducted hearings in my city, and I was not an important person. I was just a staff person. So you can imagine my shock when he wrote me a note thanking me "for my hard work" and encouraged me, saying working in the interests of the people was a high calling. The Kennedys really believed that stuff.

R56 I don’t think that’s true. And I say this because he never once tried to disguise himself. Everyone knew who he was but most people left him alone. Back then NYC was far less Midwestern and southern transplant congested.

Don’t forget about that well publicized screamfest that they had before they got married. It looked like she was the aggressor in that one.

R156, he was 100 percent to blame for getting himself, his wife, and sister-in-law killed. That plane crash was ALL on him.

Oh, if you watch any of the talk show appearances he did it’s quite apparent he has ADHD. Unstable posture, constantly shifting gaze, meandering, unfocus style of speaking.

Regarding people saying “he was very forgetful” as a way of politely saying he was stupid, what they may actually be referring to is “executive function.” All ADHD/ASD people struggle with executive function in one area or another.

“Executive functioning refers to a person's ability to process information. It includes skills such as:

Organizing Planning Paying attention Inhibiting inappropriate responses”

R159 it's real important to you to place blame a finger point. yes it was pilot error. No doubt. he shouldn't have been goaded into flying that night. But we were not on that plane. We have no idea what he did or did not do, or how it all happened. To me it was a tragedy. The fault finding just seems petty and unimportant after 24 years.

R113 what does failing the bar exam have to do with piloting???

R123 we all know they dated. Their relationship was very public and serious for a while.

[quote] he shouldn't have been goaded into flying that night.

Who goaded him, R161? It was his decision to fly under very bad flying conditions. His own pilot who trained him was dead-set against it.

His crash was ALL on him.

R125 pretty sure most children imitate us no matter what.

R126 ummm it has more to do with ego and arrogance than anything. Not everything is a fucking mental disorder.

R130 of course it’s not based on anything. That poster is lying and saying anything for attention

I mean the crash had more to do with rich people feeling they can do whatever the fuck they want than it did anything else.

I worked up a little number for the occasion if anyone wants to see it?

R134 it was his childhood nickname because his father was John, and he was John Jr, essentially John John.

How tall are you, R132? He always struck me as no more than (an honest) 5’11.

JFK Jr was slightly above 6’1

^ Are you R132? I know that was his listed height, but I didn’t believe it.

He was dyslexic on aderol for ADD. Opiates for his recently broken ankle (used to operate rudder pedals) not an IR pilot yet he declined an offer to have an instructor fly with him. Did we mention the bottle of wine he picked up at the airport corner shop before take off. That he never filed a flight plan and almost ran into a commercial airliner only minutes into his flight. Let's not forget he had his radio tuned to the wrong frequency to contact the tower.,Yet with all that John-John came within just 5 minutes of final approach to Martha's Vineyard airport. If only Hillary hadn't got lucky with that surface to air missile

Jeez it’s like they let Lucille Bluth fly the plane.

R152, few things can bring a large amount of DLers together the way their worship of JFK, Jr. can.

Assuming it's ones poster, I think we've now had enough posts in enough threads (he was in the recent Jack Schlossberg thread) to officially baptize the "The Kennedys Are All Autistic" Troll.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread but want to add to the speculation about why the plane crashed.

An older pilot friend, still flying small planes in his 80s, said he thinks what could have happened is that the newbie pilot John likely became disoriented in the fog. When that happens a pilot can become unaware whether they are right side up, upside down, or sideways. Incorrect decisions at that point can put the plane into a downward spiral. By the time the pilot realizes what's happening it's too late to right the plane and gain altitude.

Ironical that her beloved John-John died less than two miles from Mummy's Red Gate Farm beach. If she had lived he'd be alive today.

[quote] If she had lived he'd be alive today.

Hpw do you figure that, R179?

To this day I still cannot get over losing two casual acquaintances I turned into my BFFs after they died.

Take comfort we still have his identical Jewish twin!

I'd never allowed Dumbo to marry that coked out cunt!

I wonder what Jackie would have thought of Darryl Hannah and Sarah Jessica Horser?

Just read an interesting article by a pilot who was also new, at that time and flew that same route earlier.

The most idiotic of the four listed 'fatal moves' was he didn't even put the damned plane on autopilot. Two buttons would've brought them to MV.

Jackie had a premonition that her son would die in his own plane, R180

On her deathbed she pleaded with Maurice Templesman to stop John from flying by whatever means necessary.

I guess ol' Maurice didn't give a shit.

More like John was headstrong R187

As well as stupid.

Flying is an odd choice as a hobby for a Kennedy. His aunt and uncle died in plane crashes; his aunt Ethel lost her parents and brother in two separate plan crashes; his uncle Teddy was in a serious plane crash in the 60s

I thought I read somewhere thar the relationship between Maurice, JFK Jr and Caroline unraveled quickly after Jackie’s death-something about selling an apartment that Jackie bought for her longtime butler or something.

R178 This isn’t new information—this was pretty well-established as to what likely happened on that flight.

Wasn't John still wearing a cast on his foot/ leg? I do if that would affect a pilot's ability to handle the plane but his foot/ankle wasn't completely healed enough to remove the cast . I read every book I could find about John and later Caroline. In almost every account of the couple she was described as a bitch, for lack of a better word. She was casually cruel to John when he had given her no reason to be. Women had been falling at his feet all of his life. Maybe that was her way of trying to keep him interested. Some men like to be dominated. He was the only son of a beloved President killed while still young and in office, leaving his beautiful young family grief stricken and the nation loved them and mourned with them. John was the beautiful, sweet Prince who was tragically left fatherless. We felt protective of him, this young boy who broke our hearts saluting his fathers casket. This icy cold coke fiend is suddenly in OUR beautiful young Princes life and really, how fucking dare her? Yelling at him in public? Making him CRY?! Oh, hell no. She wasn't good enough for him, pretty enough, nice enough. She didn't rate a handsome prince, this low rent woman who could never even arrive anywhere on time. There weren't many among the women of every age who didn't want to give her a vicious slap across her face. She hurt our beautiful, sweet boy and we wanted blood and that included the gossip and media reporters as well . They all despised her. But she actually was mean to him, she did cheat on him with her ex boyfriend, the model who wrote a book about their relationship. He claimed that she was unpredictable and had frequent violent outbursts with him and had actually physically harmed him a few times. Heavy cocaine and prescription drug addict. The negative feeling towards her was justified in my opinion. She didn't love him and it showed. So there it is for whatever it's worth, an account from a person who at a very young was witness to these events in real time. I would not have wanted to live in a different timeline. I have lived through some fascinating times in my life. This was one of the sadder ones.

Maurice’s son-in-law was a passenger on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11/01.

R192- Sorry for the typos, incorrect grammar, I had to write that in a rush and have had little sleep. My new apartment seems to have another occupant, one of the previously alive kind . Maybe my dead husband has followed me here, I don't know, don't understand, and explain so I won't try.

He was never my type, looks-wise--too cheesy frat boyish in the face. From the neck down, he was hot.

I grew up in the West where lots of people fly small planes for transport and crop dusting. You hear a lot of stories of near crashes, near-fatal crashes, and fatal crashes and families being wiped out. I would never get in a small plane piloted by an amateur.

Especially an amateur who's an idiot.

Between the drugs for his Graves diseases ,ADHD, opioids for his ankle washed down with chardonnay +his limited flying skills + the bitch screeching in his ear it's a wonder Johnny made it as far as he did.

Didn't one of his cousins die in an accident skiing down a mountain while tossing a football to others? The only curse is the reckless stupidity.

R192 Waddled over from the Megan Markle Threads.

If a Kennedy offers you a lift wait for the bus.

As for those who keep saying Bessette was some "aggressor" or nagging shrew, etc., I don't think they're anywhere close. John John wasn't the paragon of wholesome All-American guy.

Take a look at that recent Brooke Shields documentary; she's not one who people normally associate with sensationalizing or making up stories. She told the story, very matter-of-factly, of how John met up with her and her mom on some ski trip, or maybe they went on the trip together while they were dating or flirting with one another. She spoke of him being all over her, being sweet, making lots of gentlemanly overtures, really trying to court her, but also kept pushing her for sex. She was a virgin and wanted to wait but he kept pushing. It finally culminated on that trip where she just said "no", and he ghosted her. Never spoke to her again. There was a storm and he couldn't leave or go back to stay with his friends, wherenever they were staying, so he stayed over that night at the house where Brooke and her mom and entourage were staying. She recounted that he didn't say two words to her. When he left the next morning, he never spoke to her again. No phone calls, no follow-up messages, nothing. He wanted to fuck her. She said no/not now, and he cancelled her out.

That's not just an asshole move, it's sociopathic, something some spoiled rich prince might do. He could have whatever pussy he wanted and when he couldn't score the one everyone was after at the time, he had no use for her. And yet, history and people online are remembering his wife as a monster-bitch? I don't think so.

R190 JFK Jr had an obsession with flying from childhood. When JFK was shown this famous picture of his son racing lovingly into his arms his comment " He wasn't running to daddy he was running to the helicopter."

^

[quote]JFK, Jr. had no charisma or excitement to his personality. Take away the extraordinary head of hair, face, body, family name and money and what you're left with was a crashing bore. No wonder CBK and he were going to divorce.

R142. I'm a big Kennedy fan (except for RFK Jr), but I never thought of John-John as boring. But now that you mention it, he was.

R174 any sources to back up that claim?

R201 You certainly don't think Tiny. Actually it's quite normal for a young horny boy. If you ever had known one you'd understand. Now get back to second dinner.

R184 John and Darryl Hannah started dating in 1988. Jackie died in 1994. I’m certain she met Darryl.

If he was obsessed with flying, he sure had a funny way of showing it by not properly learning to use a plane. Someone obsessed would have studied everything there is to know about instrumentation and demanded extra lessons with an instructor at dusk and night. He sounds more dilletente like many rich boys.

R192 I think she had an eating disorder also.

I graduated from Boston University, College of Communications the same day as Anthony Radziwill. The individual college graduations were much smaller and nicer to attend than the massive university graduation. As the graduates were waiting in line for quite a long time before going on stage, we were lined up next to the front row of attendees. Right there in the front row was Jackie O, John-John, Lee Radziwill and her daughter Christina; Caroline Kennedy was not there. I was three feet away from the Kennedy/Radziwill family. I couldn't stop looking at them even though I grew up in Boston often saw Kennedys around town.

On that graduation day, the Kenn/Rad family were all very friendly with each other and let out a big cheer when Anthony's name was called. It was very cute. Even though they knew everyone was looking at them, they had a way of creating an invisible wall around themselves to keep the likes of me and my gawking eyes out. But it was kind of a thrill to see them all sitting so close to me as I was standing there waited to go on stage to receive my diploma.

From what's been published Jackie main issue with Hannah was her profession. Daryll came from a very wealthy WASP family which was a prerequisite for JBKO. As for Madonna Mummy viewed her as guttersnipe trash. When JFK Jr had her over for dinner Jackie wouldn't deign to come out of her rooms. Since Bessette did not come from big money and Caroline disliked her doubt Jackie would have allowed the marriage. Think what she wanted for her son was a female version of Jack Schlosberg a rather dull conventional uber supportive low maintenance wife for JFK Jr ..did we mention filthy rich. All of which Carolyn Bessette was not.

I used to see David Kennedy (Bobby Kennedy's gay but troubled son) at 'Darts,' a popular gay bar in the 1970s and '80s on Dartmouth Street in Copley Square, Boston. David was living in Boston; nice guy, kept to himself. Sadly he was found dead in in Palm Beach, Florida hotel in April 1984; cause of death was an accidental overdose. David went to Palm Beach to visit his ailing grandmother, Rose Kennedy.

[quote]On her deathbed she pleaded with Maurice Templesman to stop John from flying by whatever means necessary.

Hhhhhhe wwwwwas tttttoo bbbbusy ddddddevellllllloppppping a didididisease ttttto kikikill offffff nnnnon Chchchchchinese aaaaand jjjjjjjews.

[quote]cause of death was an accidental overdose

In other words...

Syringe Syringe

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure no drugs or alcohol were found in Jr from the autopsy. So this speculation that he was drunk and/or high is incorrect.

R215 - WHAT autopsy?

The Post doesn't seem to know what "off the grid' means. No, she wasn't living like the Unabomber

[QUOTE]The tragedy drove Lisa into a life off the grid. Even after settling in Ann Arbor, she kept her circle of friends and acquaintances small. She has no known social media accounts and even recent images of her are nearly impossible to find.

R212 Thanks for that. David was always labeled the "sensitive" son who RFK gave extra attention to.So that makes perfect sense.

Jesus, R206 is severely triggered. Why so invested R206? Something hit a nerve? Or is it just too much fun blaming the wife, a person you never knew?

R210. Fun fact: (Princess) Caroline Lee Radziwill's children, Anthony and his sister, Anna Christina, had the title of prince and princess as a result of Lee's marriage to Prince Stanisław Albrecht 'Stash' Radziwiłł of Poland. Actually, 'Tina' Radziwill, 62, is still alive and technically still a princess.

R218. David was traumatized as a kid. Given the excitement of his father winning the California primary in 1968, David was supposed to be asleep but stayed up late watching the victory on television. Unfortunately, he witnessed his father being assassinated right there while watching TV.

"At the age of 13, watching television alone in a Los Angeles hotel room on June 5, 1968, David Kennedy saw his father fatally shot as the New York Senator celebrated his victory in the California Democratic Presidential primary."

When David died, Teddy Kennedy offered the following: "Senator Edward M. Kennedy, David's uncle, issued a statement that said in part, 'We all pray that David has finally found the peace that he did not find in life.'

[QUOTE]David was always labeled the "sensitive" son who RFK gave extra attention

I read that Ethel was especially harsh on David and became physically violent. I wonder if she picked up on his gayness.

The last thing heard on the recovered cockpit voice recorder:

"If you don't SHUT THE FUCK UP I'm gonna fly this plane into....

He was cute, but I think that the Kennedy mystique played a huge role in the fact that he achieved sex symbol status. There are MANY men who are more attractive but, then again, they are not the sons of a tragic political hero and an inexplicable fashion icon.

The thing that truly surprises me is how incredibly plain, dull and mediocre Carolyn Bessette was. She was the human equivalent of overcooked spaghetti and I have always wondered how a man who could have had almost any woman he wanted, chose to marry an insipid tapeworm who came from a rather unsophisticated middle class environment and had risen in the fashion industry by kissing the right behinds.

Professional Opinion:

She was cunt dear.

I can’t believe how much his body language is that of a child in the photo at R211

I think this may have been exactly the same situation as Harry and Meghan, where he married this flawed woman in some bizarre attempt to recapture some Freudian dynamic he had with his own mother

R201- That was the general feeling of a good portion of the public as well as as most of the mainstream media, that is all I was trying to convey. Of course he wasn't perfect and of course she wasn't evil personified. The media didn't like her because she would wanted nothing to do with them, which to me was very wise of her. Just pointing out that much of the public admired John very much and felt affectionate towards him. You have to wonder how John's life would have been different if Jackie had accepted Daryl Hannah. Many feel that John was truly in love with her but who knows?

R224 Mentioning "behinds" Some men are attracted to "tapeworms" perhaps you should invest in one .

I love you, R228 - I was going to rip you to shreds because of what you have written (your crass cuntiness isn't cute at all), but that gif is hilarious.

What JFK Jr's close friends have written is they could not understand how a woman could agree to marry the most high profile man on the planet insist that they live in the heart of NYC and then be offended and surprised when the media pursued her. She was either naïve or delusional. Clearly not up to the "job".

Ethel was horrible to her oldest three sons -Joe II, RFK Jr. And David-after their father died. Pat Lawford was the same way with her son Chris-she left him behind in 1969, when he was 14 or so, to go to Paris to live temporarily.

When people discuss the troubles of third Kennedy generation, they primarily are referring to those four grandsons, who were in a lot of trouble in the 70s and early 80s. Eunice and Sarge Shriver’s son also got involved a bit in their nonsense, until they were arrested for drugs and vandalism in 1970 and the Shrivers made it clear he could not behave that way.

When David was 18, he was riding in a Jeep with his girlfriend Pam Kelley and his brother Joe II, who was driving recklessly. The Jeep flipped over and Pam was paralyzed. She received a large settlement from the Kennedys. That also did a number on him.

Rose and Teddy should have turned the Kennedy Compound into a mental health facility in the 70s. That family cried out for therapy.

I'm with R224 / 229. GET her R224!!!

[quote]There are MANY men who are more attractive

R224. Not all that many.

Carolyn also did not want to have children She saw a shrink every day. Hung out with her fag hags snorting coke at their apt till dawn. No wonder John John spent his last night at a hotel. Hopefully sleeping with Jackie look alike Julie Baker he was papped with the day before. No doubt he realized what a mistake Bessette was . High maintenance neurotic bitches may be intriguing fucks but you certainly don't marry them dear.

Carolyn played hard to get and treated him with disdain, making it clear she wasn’t going to bend to conform to him. For a man accustomed to being treated with fawning adulation from birth by everyone,, that must have been fascinating and infuriating.

R229 Hon if you're no into "crass cuntiness" you've come to the wrong place.

R224 IN YOUR OPINION. John was naturally gorgeous and women loved him. YOU Didn’t but many did.

R219 Nope. Just enjoy trolling fat chicks.

R237 THE POST IN CAPS MAKES IT VALID FRAUS HAVE ARRIVED.

That video at R63 is fascinating, but it contradicts so much of what we have read and heard about the tragic accident. For instance, it was widely reported that the weather forecast for the evening was very bad and that John was advised by at least one person at the airport in Jersey not to fly, since he was not fully instrument rated. So, was all of that a lie?

Re JFK's JR autopsy report. The report has been sealed. All autopsy photos destroyed. A superficial summary released stating his "liver was too degraded to provide useful data" Of course testing the liver is the primary source for alcohol and drugs. How convenient.

Well after sleeping with the fishes for four days in some of the most shark infested waters doubt there was mush left to photograph or test.

^ mush = much but mush would be more accurate

R231

[quote] When David was 18, he was riding in a Jeep with his girlfriend Pam Kelley and his brother Joe II, who was driving recklessly. The Jeep flipped over and Pam was paralyzed. She received a large settlement from the Kennedys.

[quote] She received a large settlement from the Kennedys. - NOT TRUE.

See link below...

I don't know why people revere this guy so much. He didn't do much of anything with his very privileged life. He died, so what. People die all the time.

After 24 years the consensuses is JFK Jr was a nice good looking momma's boy who had very poor judgement in wives and weather conditions.

R245 one doesn’t need to do anything to be revered.

The spitting image r234. Damn.

I can’t believe he cheated on his wife with a woman who looks exactly like his mother.

Fag.

That video re-enactment is fucking terrifying.

Anyone remember the episode of Frasier where he dates his mother's spitting image and he's the only one not to notice? Rita Wilson played Mrs. Crane.

This is a trash family that has killed or crippled too many other people along with themselves with their stupid, reckless, macho behavior. Playing football while skiing down mountains, driving drunk off bridges, crashing planes, flipping jeeps. Bunch of fucking morons.

^they are like an uppercut version of those Murdoch hicks

The Murdochs don't kill themselves in ridiculously unnecessary accidents--unfortunately.

Women were throwing themselves at John since he turned like 14/15. Not even joking. Once he got into his teen years and you could see what a handsome man he was gonna be… yikes. He was a hot teenager too. Always an attractive guy. He was blessed.

[quote] He was blessed.

Apparently not.

He was quite the tasty dish in his youth.

^Slut

Some bulge for you thirsties

He had nice, thick calves.

His legs in general were great. He was a beautiful man.

He was a hot idiot.

R178 I agree - I have a close friend who is a PhD in aerospace engineering and has built and flown small planes for decades and when I asked him back then what he thought happened, he said something almost identical to what your friend said. It’s so haunting to imagine.

I like the story the DLer posted where Carolyn bummed a smoke off him on the street and he told her how happy he was she bagged John John.

Then she proceeded to roll her eyes and make a snide comment to her friend.

Carolyn was not a warm person and very closed off

His nephew WISHES he looked like this.

I remember reading in a book about JFK Jr. that he was known to have a reckless streak. In particular, according to the book, there was an incident many years before the plane crash where he went out alone in a boat on Cape Cod even though bad weather was predicted and he didn't return for hours. The family was frantic and was pretty sure he was dead. (Sorry I don't remember more details.)

[quote]John's family was allowed a Naval burial at sea. Don't know if Caroline was with him or if she was buried in Connecticut with her sister.

It looks like Carolyn's ashes were scattered at sea, R150.

So he was a dick as well as an idiot, R269.

I would have preferred his ashes were kept in an urn with me. Scattering them at sea is preposterous.

R106 Classic coke use symptoms.

All of these super-wealthy people are daredevils; it's as if they think their money can protect them from harm.

Oh John-John, there were at least 50 better ways to leave your lover.

R121, Jackie saw her husband’s piece of skull land on hood . She grabbed it and put it back on Jack’s head . She was in total shock ! That’s so horrific

R273 he looked way too Healthy and fit for a coke head . JK had ADHD and possibly trauma from childhood that made him daydream frequently. He was dissociated

John-John was a dumb-dumb.

r276 - I read that at some point she handed it to a Secret Service agent.

What might have been..sigh

Pity. QCould have killed two birds with one stone.

. JFK Jr was my role model.

Wow, Justin. Those short shorts. So daring.

It's more dramatic to think they had been fighting all day and were fighting as the plane went down.

They claim he inherited his daddy's " Irish Curse" below the waist. Photos look like not so much meat plenty of potatoes.

Recall an article in Rolling Stone that quoted some high end whore who claimed JFK Jr hired her for "water sports" She said he was very polite and when she asked him about scat he replied "No thanks I get shit on enough."

R277 he wasn't a coke head, in fact he publicly chastised his cousins for their "bad behavior.'" I think Brooks Shield's experience was typical of any good looking rich kid who was accustomed to girls throwing themselves at him. He was probably embarrassed, with a bruised ego so he ghosted her. Look. There's no need to idealize him.

Apparently he was an open pot head but a closet smoker. Only one cig a day.

That's not just an asshole move, it's sociopathic, something some spoiled rich prince might do.

I disagree, r201. That's a man who let a woman know he'd like to have sex with her. She said "No."

He didn't force it. He didn't violate her physically.

So what if JFK, Jr., or any man "ghosted" Brooke Shields, or any woman, after it was made clear to him sex was off the table.

That's not being an asshole, and lord knows it's nowhere near being sociopathic.

So, he didn't allow her to play the "Oh, I think we should just friends" line that straight women are so fond of when they just aren't attracted to you for sex.

Well, he didn't let her play that game and I think its damn straight-up of him to let her know he wouldn't play that "friends" game.

and I like Brooke Shields, too.

This is typical sexual behavior of rich powerful men. Like JFK Jr and Trump. They like to be humiliated subs in bed. It's a basic human desire for Ying-Yang balance.

JFK Jr was human but how does that explain Dump?

Why Donald wants JFK Jr as his running mate in 2024

Make Golden Showers Great Again!

Trump Was into submission by women? I highly doubt that

R293 Wait till you see my tapes dear.

Why was Ethel so mean to her sons?

Any man who would turn down a second date with R201 is a sociopath and obvious homosexual. What man could resist...

R289 Amateur.

FYI: Ed wee na Schlossburg squats to pee.

FYI: Ed wee na Schlossburg squats to pee.

FYI: Ed wee na Schlossburg squats to pee.

FYI: Ed wee na Schlossburg squats to pee.

FYI: Ed wee na Schlossburg squats to pee.

FYI: Ed wee na Schlossburg squats to pee.

FYI: Ed wee na Schlossburg squats to pee.

FYI: Ed wee na Schlossburg squats to pee.

FYI: Ed wee na Schlossburg squats to pee.

^

R273 or he was just forgetful. We exist. I don’t do cocaine but I have a terrible short term memory span. I will think of something then get distracted for a second and seconds later forgot what I needed to do.

I don’t think he’s an asshole for ghosting Brooke Shields. Women do it to men all the time also. I think her No sent a clear message to him and he respected that and chose to just vanish vs the just friends nonsense. Also, as stated upthread, he had women throwing themselves at him since before he was legal age. He was a beautiful teenage boy who grew into a beautiful young man and then a gorgeous man. He wasn’t used to being denied. Her no probably felt like a punch to his stomach.

I wouldn't have said No to John-John. That would have been quite the get.

His nephew does look like him and he has an eating disorder like Jackie. Apples don't fall from the tree

His nephew looks nothing like him.

The fact that JFK Jr., who grew up before our very eyes, died and those two cretins Eric and DJT Jr., still roam the earth, shows there is no justice in the world. And to make matters worse, those two assholes will live to be old men, just like their miserable father and equally miserable grandfather.

r312 he does. Just because he's not as hot does not mean he doesn't look like his uncle.

I remember the never ending coverage of this in the UK when it happened. Everyone was watching closely. It was truly terrifying to me and heartbreaking. May he rest in piece. By almost all accounts, he was a good guy. I was always so fascinated by how protective Americans were of him. They always ignored his sister but treated John-John like their Prince, as if Caroline too didn’t lose a father that day.

R314 but he doesn’t look like him. His facial features are his fathers. Not the Kennedy bloodline. He has a Jewish face.

R313 stupid post. Eric and Don Jr. are still with us because they didn’t decide to fly their own plane on a foggy night without the proper training. They’re trash people but John’s death was by his own doing, he wasn’t murdered by someone while Eric and Don weren’t.

R316 = Heinrich Himmlet, taking a time out from writing the Nuremburg Laws to post on DL.

R318 no. Just someone with working eyes. We really need to stop lying and pretending we are blind to reality about this. That kid looks nothing like his uncle in the face. He inherited his fathers face.

He has the Kennedy hair, and that’s about it. And even that is debatable. Everything else is his father. He certainly doesn’t look like this.

R317: Stupid post.

And the last sentence of your post makes no sense at all.

R321 it actually makes complete sense.

He does have his grandmother's jaw.

Jack has a resemblance to some of the Kennedys, but not much if anything to John-John.

Lordy is there a lot of bullshit on this thread. John was an outrageously handsome, charming and nice guy. Yes he was very reckless. When he spoke publicly his inflections and cadences were very similar to his fathers. He certainly was not dumb although I would not call him an intellectual by a long shot.

And yes I knew him a bit as I knew his mom as I posted above. I used to chat with him at the NYU Cole gym at BYU in the 80s.. My siblings who went to some of the same schools as Kennedys knew a few of them- my brother in law and Joe (Bobby’s oldest) were roommates at Milton Academy. Joe was wild- my sister did (does) not like him.

Many of Bobby’s kids were pretty screwed up- Ethel was a pretty erratic mom and I don’t think having your dad murdered so publicly helped.

But John was a very nice, down to earth, full of physical energy breathtakingly handsome man and I’ve know a lot of great looking men in a long life in NYC across several generations of mostly gay men. John was straight but not remotely homophobic.

R325 this account…. Hmmmm.

r325 Sure Charlie

R325 Actually we believe you Charlie but because we are The DL we are honor bound to dispute and mock every piece of actual celebrity information so as not to offend the screeching kweens and lumpen fraus who pull shit out of their fat arses and gobble it up as gospel.

The fat girl pics are starting to get really tiresome.

The only way Diana's funeral was seen by 2.5 billion people is by news clips. People in India and Africa probably had better things to do than watch a putana's burial.

Ethel lost it after Bobby died. She was pregnant with her 11th child when he was killed and the Kennedy family (led by her brother in law Steve Smith) tried to force her to curtail her spending. She was unable to draw anything from the inheritance she received from her father-it was tied up in stock in the family business. She wasn’t able to sell that stock until the 80s, so Ethel had cash flow problems for years.

Also, Ethel was very competitive and ambitious, and enjoyed the spotlight-she wanted to be First Lady.

Her three eldest sons were acting out over Bobby’s death, so Ethel poured her rage and resentment into them.

“The Kennedys-An American Drama “ was published in 1983, several months before David died. Reading that book, it is truly amazing that Joe II and RFK Jr. have gone as far as they have in their careers-they were trainwrecks for years. In “The Kennedys-An American Drama, “ David talked freely with the authors, David Horowitz and Peter Collier, about the family’s dysfunction and the behavior of the adults in the family after Bobby’s death.

Several members of the family lashed out at him, using words like “treason” to describe his talking to the authors of the book , and Horowitz and Collier alleged that this behavior by the family led David into the spiral that ended with his death.

As an aside-Horowitz (not the guy from the Today Show) and Colliers were liberals in 1983, they’re now right wing members of MAGAnation.

In The Kennedy Women, it was noted that Caroline Kennedy and Sydney Lawford showed up at David’s hotel right before he died. After they left, the front desk received a call from a “Mrs.Kennedy from Boston “ asking the hotel staff to go to David’s room to check on him, where he was found dead. At the time there was a rumor that Caroline and Sydney found the body and attempted to clean up the scene before the paramedics arrived.

Yes, I have read too many books about this family over the years.

David K was the black sheep. David was Bobby’s favorite child and their bond was extremely tight . DK lost it and suffered from undiagnosed PTSD after watching his father mortally wounded on live tv. Ethel was particularly hard on David . David was the Kennedy who saw through the family’s illusions

My god. Eleven kids. Couldn't they have stopped at six or seven? Even if some of them died early because they took stupid risks or from substance abuse problems, that's still enough kids that some of them should turn out fine. It's like that parody song about Catholics from Monty Python's "Meaning of Life":

Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is great If a sperm is wasted God gets quite irate

Carolyn Bissette always looked like she was smelling rotten eggs.

Just guessing, but maybe Ethel felt she had something to prove. She probably knew that RFK was fucking around on her every chance he got. So, she kept getting pregnant to prove: He still fucks me, as well - I’m his wife. The number of children was excessive.

When Ethel married Bobby, she set a goal for herself to have more children than Rose. She was 40 when he died; she probably would have had 3-4 more kids had he lived (she was giving birth every 18 months or so in the 60s).

Ethel and the Kennedy sisters used to say Jackie was too “highborn” to have children, whereas they were popping them out every other day.

The groom was prettier than the bride.

R336. Well, Jackie Kennedy did have four pregnancies with two dying either still born or miscarried. And she had two who lived, Caroline and John. So it wasn't like she was a slouch in the baby department. She just wasn't in Ethel's league of pumping them out every year.

By the way, Teddy's wife, Joan, had three kids, which is perfectly fine. Eunice Kennedy Shriver had five kids. Jean Kennedy Smith married to Stephen Smith had one son--that's it, William Kennedy Smith.

Ethel and Bobby were the only ones who were polluting the planet with an excessive amount of children.

I read that Carolyn was much prettier in person and actually had a warm personality

R339, is that the updated version of 'but she has a great personality!'

R338, Jean had another son, too. Stephen Smith, Jr.

R338 Incorrect. Patrick Bouvier Kennedy was born alive but premature. He was born at 34 weeks and weighed 4 lbs 10 and a half ounces in 1963. He had hyaline membrane disease now known as respiratory distress syndrome. He died a few days later.

R338 Jackie had five pregnancies. Caroline, John Jr. and Patrick were born alive. She had one miscarriage and one stillborn girl, Arabella.

Jean and Stephen Smith had 2 natural children: Stephen Jr and William. They adopted 2 daughters: Amanda and Kym.

[quote]I was pissed that the full resources of our military would be used when any other American citizen would receive, at most the requisite Coast Guard search and likely, eventually be listed as "lost at sea".

Agreed, though no big surprise coming from Clinton. That said, and this is a serious question, not trolling: in the chance that Jr. & Gargoyle go down in a plane crash (fingers crossed), would the Navy/Coast Guard be called to look for them too? Trump is largely, though not entirely hated, so it's possible. So while it's not a good use of the taxpayers $$, I could completely see resources being used to rescue/recover kids of other former presidents

Jackie smoked and drank while she was pregnant, didn’t she? That would affect her unborn child, right?

[QUOTE]in India and Africa probably had better things to do than watch a putana's burial.

Jesus Christ, wrong continent and then some. Tell us more about yourself, please, sir...

R342, a baby born today in Patrick’s condition would most likely survive.

R347 nobody I know gave a shit about these funerals. The numbers are ridiculous, pulled out of thin air.

1987 Century City. Stood next to JFK Jr in a packed elevator. He smelled of Obsession not tragedy. He stepped aside to let us in so I was sad when he died. Not surprised. Sad.

The Bessette's received much more than $15,000,000.

I distinctly remember the NY Times reporting, as delicately they could, of course, that their sources stated a possible settlement was coming as high as 33 million for EACH daughter.

I'm sure the final figure was lower, but not by much. The Bessettes, as anybody in their position would, and should, put a fact to maximum use - JFK, Jr. fatally fucked-up, causing the death of both women.

Also, Caroline Schlossberg as, surviving next of kin, was motivated, of course, to settle quickly, have the Court seal the terms, and grieve.

Oh dear.

The Bessettes.

JFK, Jr. and Patrick were both born with similar breathing issues, but Patrick's condition was much worse.

I imagine Ethel at the wedding making snide comments about the Bessettes to everyone within earshot.

I get a kick out of the posters going after me- I don’t tell the half of it. Family, wild NYC before the HIV scourge, and wealth exposed me to a lot. I write what I experienced and recall. Surely it is affected by the passage of time, but I think still pretty accurate.

The RFK clan were the wildest of the Kennedys. They regularly got into messes on Nantucket (I’m sure the Cape as well). The combination of Skakel and Kennedy was combustible. My mom told me once that the Skakels were the only family booted from the Larchmont Yacht Club- woo woo!

Yeah I remember that. He's the one who was hotdogging on the ski slopes and ran into a tree.

I adore you, Charlie.

And I always detected the ring of credibility in your posts.

He wash one my besht freindsh.

All three of the plane crash victims - JFK Jr, Carolyn, and Lauren - were cremated and buried at sea in the same ceremony. The Kennedy and Bessette families mutually agreed to this.

Speaking of the settlement, the plane must’ve had to carry insurance.

I wonder if they balked at any pay-out arguing it was all pilot error placing it outside the terms of insurance.

Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg told Uncle Ted she didn't want John's grave to become some sort of ghoulish shrine. She wanted him to have the peace and the privacy he was denied in life.

I read that Ethel felt very competitive with Jackie. And when RFK was assassinated, it seemed as if Jackie commanded more attention than his widow.

The Shriver kids the boys had a few bumps in the road as teens but they straightened out pretty quick. Neither they nor Jackie's kids were allowed to hang out with Ethel's gang. Stephen Smith stayed out of the limelight and for years all we heard about him is that he managed the family's business affairs. (Handled the money.) Pat Lawford's kids were raised out in Hollywood mostly and they were all fucked up. Pat had a major drinking problem. Being married to Peter LAwford would do that to a girl. Bobby's daughters seem to be fairly stable.

I believe you Charlie. Sometimes I am mystified by people who attack anyone with first hand information, and then complain that DL never hears from people with first hand information.

In Chicago, Old Joe owned what was then, iirc, called the Merchandise Mart in a prime location.

When it was sold, I think I remember reading that the money received from its sale was divided up, in equal shares, among every one of his grandchildren.

I think this current generation are comfortably wealthy, but I’m not sure any of them are in the billionaire class.

R346 JFK's chronic STD's had more to due with Jackie's miscarriages then her drinking and smoking. Most 60's moms smoked and drank during their pregnancies. Put that in your self righteous lil Gen X pipe and smoke it.

R363 Perhaps that's why you turned out the way you did?

R354, was Ethel even in attendance at the wedding. I don’t recall it being a hugely-attended wedding.

R363, 42% of Americans were smoking in 1964, the year the Surgeon General’s report was issued. I believe the rate of women smokers was even less.

I thought the only family members at the JFK Jr/Carolyn Bessette nuptials were Caroline and her family, Lee Radziwill and her kids.

He didn't like being called "John John", OP.

Yeah, he was only average looking.

R366, that may well be, but Jackie smoked. Adn we have learned that cigarette smoking was a major contributor to low birth weights and premature births as well as miscarriages. Public health professionals were always so focused on the majorr damage smoking did to people's lungs the overlooked other health issues associated with smoking

The Air Safety Institute make Youtube videos in which they recreate crashes of small aircraft for educational purposes. There are many instances of the scenario R178 describes. Even experienced pilots can get into trouble when they become spatially disoriented, but less experienced pilots seem to be more inclined to take risks with weather, etc. I don't doubt John Jr was exceptionally foolhardy, but after watching some of those videos I would never agree to travel in a small aircraft.

Ethel slipped in the back and stood, hidden from view for the most part.

They said she could be heard mumbling, "Get a load of that cheap retarded whore. And his bride looks like a washed hard and put away wet TART!"

Ethel “Shar Pei” Skakel Kennedy…

my mother and her sister were HUGE Kennedy fans; they volunteered on his early early campaigns.

I was born shortly after John John and had to wear the same kind of sun suits he had to.

My dad saw John John in a magazine wearing one and said, "oh, that's why you've got my kid in that outfit."

John John pulled off the look MUCH better.

Agree he wouldn’t have been flying his own plane, I think Jackie controlled his access to money. Not so sure about CBK. At some point, the heart wants what it wants and, by all accounts, he was nutty for her. Jackie was a pragmatist and would have made the best of it.

I can't imagine what must have went through theirbhead as the plane was descending rapidly

[quote] what must have went through

Oh, dear.

eldergay thread

Just based on what's written here, I feel for David Kennedy, who seemed to have been a decent person trapped in an awful family.

The grandsons were a mess for the most part. I think only 2 of Ethel’s sons stayed out of legal trouble.

The granddaughters for the most part turned out well, Kerry Kennedy’s DUI/messy divorce is the exception there.

THIS is the thread that weird post on the Leslie Van Houten thread meant.

Wow! Smoking contributes to natal problems ! Pilots get spatial disorientation and crash!. This is why DL is my Home School.

[quote] There was something peaceful about our American prince just gliding by.

Mary!

No, r382. Pilots with not enough training to fly with only instruments and with hubris "get spatial disorientation and crash."

R20, In addition, Jr would not have become a pilot while his mother was alive.

R385 His mother forbade it. Just a couple of months after she died, he started his flying lessons.

[quote] [R20], In addition, Jr would not have become a pilot while his mother was alive.

Do you mean she would have used her formidable and sweeping political powers to somehow get his license denied?

It's not like she was Theodora, Empress of Byzantium. She was just a former First Lady of the United States.

John respected his mother's wishes on important matters, so he complied. Once she died, there was nobody to hold him back.

[quote] Just based on what's written here, I feel for David Kennedy, who seemed to have been a decent person trapped in an awful family.

I also feel greatly for an adult who died playing touch football without a helmet while skiing on mountain slopes.

That was Michael Kennedy, r389. The ugly one that married Frank Gifford’s daughter.

R381 care to share the contents of the post for those of us not ensconced in the LVH thread?

95-year-old Ethel has buried a husband, children, grandchildren and even a great grandchild.

I also picked my nose.

Michael ruined his marriage to Vickie by schtuping the underage babysitter. I think she was only 14.

It has been rumored for years that a woman from Long Island, NY was vacationing on an island and while at a nude beach managed to take a full frontal POLAROID of JFK, Jr. emerging from the ocean.

Allegedly, Caroline Kennedy purchased the photograph when she learned it was being shopped around.

R387, Wow. Obtuse much?

He wouldn't have acted against his mother's wishes (and fears), whether about becoming a pilot, becoming an actor, or marrying "wrong" (Darryl Hannah, e g.).

Sad you needed this explained, and sadder you thought your sarcasm was clever.

No, r192. He had recently had the cast removed.

I guess you skipped that book.

[quote] 95-year-old Ethel has buried a husband, children, grandchildren and even a great grandchild.

Damn! I keep trying and missing!

[quote]Sad you needed this explained, and sadder you thought your sarcasm was clever.

Oh, I must have hurt your widdle feewings.

[quote]I can't imagine what must have went through theirbhead as the plane was descending rapidly

The cabin?

Metal rods??

Air???

Mummy was the only one who said NO to him.

R401 Except for moi

Our next VP .Tan rested and ready people!

Great thread. There is so much fascination with the Kennedys, and there are so many of them, the stories are endless.

Since 2015, we have needed a charismatic Kennedy or Kennedy-like figure to once and for all defeat and crush the criminal Trump and the lawlessness of the Repig party.

R400, The three of them shit their pants in unison.

In her memoir of her time dating JFK Jr girlfriend Christina Haag wrote of how he almost drowned them in a kayak accident. When they finally washed up on the beach gasping for air, Kennedy paced the beach in a manic state shouting over and over the mantra: 'DON'T TELL MUMMY!" 'DON'T TELL MUMMY"! Haag recalls there was no one on the beach but her but he wasn't speaking to her. He was speaking to himself. He was a 29 yo man. Obviously " Mummy" rowed John -John's kayak and after she was gone he predictably sank it beneath the waves in just 5 years. Momma's boy lost.

It's been said before: It's a "blessing " Jackie died before him because if she had lived the death of her son would have killed her more painfully then the cancer.

^ Actually fucking Ari was more painful then the cancer.

R403 . Wow the impact with the water must have been hard.

R406 Amateur.

Jackie would have less than two weeks shy of 70 when John, Jr., died; his father only 82.

R397- Skipped much in the same way that you obviously skipped reading comprehension classes.

R361 you believe “Charlie” because you are Charlie. Every fucking account mentioning “Charlie” is the same exact poster. The jobless poster. The poster who is not employable.

R372 aka “Charlie”, any source for that?

R374 I can’t imagine your father really cared all that much about an outfit. You were probably made to wear it because that was common little boy clothing at the time.

R406 I believe he said that but he was American. I doubt he called her “mum”

R409 hard enough to kill them, so yeah…

R416 'Mom' only really took off in the 1970s.

R342, I believe Dominick Dunne’s wife , Lenny , had two babies die from this horrible disease. Interesting fact , Jackie and Lenny went to MS Porters finishing / boarding school in Farmington, Connecticut. I believe Jackie was 2 years older

[quote] Kerry Kennedy’s...messy divorce is the exception there.

That's what she gets for marrying down.

R418 what!!? Lmaoooooooooo go away

We havent said “mummy” here in the fucking states since the 1800s.

I swear to God the JOBLESS loser living off his mother because he is UNEMPLOYABLE aka “Charlie” is delusional and psychotic.

Why did Jackie dress John John in drag for his father's funeral?

I know he was just a toddler, but did he really need to be seen in a dress?

Or was Jackie just super progressive?

[quote] We havent said “mummy” here in the fucking states since the 1800s.

We can tell the kind of milieu in which you didn't grow up.

R424 we did not say mum here in the states. These were Americans going back generations. Not first generation Americans.

Yeah, right r422.

Charlie posts gossip, you know, that stuff that the DL is supposed to be about.

You, on the other hand, stalk Charlie and post your jealous, unhinged, off-topic babble, don't contribute one damn word to the thread topic, but Charlie is the one who delusional and psychotic?

Whooo boy, if anybody here is half a bubble off plumb, it's you.

I blocked R422. Obnoxious, obsessive troll.

R426 why are you referring to Charlie in third person when you are that poster? No one stalks you. You were told numerous times to stop the shit over the course of over 4 years and you still continued stalking and harassing a stranger on the internet. Someone you didn’t realize is a law enforcer with access to tolls that can track and link me to who is posting. Not to mention you have posted my images to weird websites and even posted my face onto naked bodies, which is sexual harassment now in the USA. You have my name plastered all over Reddit from your accountS meanwhile I’m not even on Reddit. You thought we didn’t know? We know.

You’re jobless, you’re unemployable, you’re an OFFENDER, and you live off your mother. When your mothers benefits are cut because she has a grown man living off her, what will she do?

See the Gen Z trolls have invaded. Can't you nitwit punks leave us alone with the fine memories you'll never have? Now go vape yourself into a coma while your future burns. Eldergays love the smell of burning guttersnipes in the morning.

At 62. He would have been a silver fox.

Y'all know that only fags say "mummy" . Real men have Mee Maws

Again, this is America. Not the UK.

At least we still have RFK Jr.

Ethel's sons were a mess but some of the daughters haven't fared much better. Courtney lost her only child, her daughter, to a heroin overdose just a few years ago. She OD'd at Grandma Ethel's house on the Cape, of all places.

Kathleen lost one of her daughters, a doctor, and her eldest grandson when they ended up in a kayak, way out in the choppy waters of Chesapeake Bay, and drowned. They weren't wearing life jackets and her daughter didn't have her cell phone on her to call for help.

[quote]R354, was Ethel even in attendance at the wedding. I don’t recall it being a hugely-attended wedding.

Rare Footage From JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette's Wedding | TODAY

[QUOTE]Kathleen lost one of her daughters, a doctor, and her eldest grandson when they ended up in a kayak, way out in the choppy waters of Chesapeake Bay, and drowned. They weren't wearing life jackets and her daughter didn't have her cell phone on her to call for help.

Unreal. What is it with this family?

Gen Z are beyond ignorant. All Kennedy biographies relate that Jackie Kennedy was referred to as Mummy by her children. Read a bloody book.

iz it cuz they were egiptians?

He was already exhibiting early signs of jowels at 38, R430, so I doubt he would look as good as suggested in your link.

I call her Mummy not because I'm British but because she looks like one.

I had no idea about Kathleen's daughter. This must have been horrible to her losing a child and a grandchild. .

Love that video of the wedding, etc. John had mostly Bouvier looks, especially the eyes.

R412, You didn't know about the cast, yet you boasted of your extensive reading. Suck it up, Buttercup.

He had a hot ass but he couldn't pick it forever.

[Quote]. Back then NYC was far less Midwestern and southern transplant congested.

You think NY is full of Midwesterners and southern transplants! South of the Border transplants yes but not from the American south and ironically many New Yorkers and New York businesses have gone south.

[Quote] The fault finding just seems petty and unimportant after 24 years.

Not to Dlers

It's probably best that Jackie On Assistance didn't live to see John John's death. She probably would've had to marry another hideously ugly Greek shipping magnate just to cover the funeral costs.

[QUOTE] There was something peaceful about our American prince just gliding by.

Possibly the most MARY statement I've ever seen posted on here.

Doesn't "meemaw" mean "grandmother", R431?

Supposedly Ethel's granddaughter who died from an overdose suffered from chronic depression.

On this video taken at his graduation from Brown, you can hear JFK, Jr. call out "Mummy" to Jackie as he's passing by her.

R441, The grandson had kicked a soccer ball into the ocean and he and his mother went to retrieve it and they both drowned.

Piper Saratoga is my drag name.

[quote]Kathleen lost one of her daughters, a doctor, and her eldest grandson when they ended up in a kayak, way out in the choppy waters of Chesapeake Bay, and drowned. They weren't wearing life jackets and her daughter didn't have her cell phone on her to call for help.

I remember when that happened; it was during COVID & close to Easter, so the water was still pretty cold. It was terrible about the daughter & son, but if it had been a couple of rednecks pulling that same stunt, everyone would be talking about how stupid & irresponsible the mother was.

The prevailing theme through most of these tragedies of the younger generation is the complete lack of judgement or common sense. Maybe that's a result of being wealthy: someone else is always looking out for you so when you have to make your own decisions, you fail big time. I don't know. But if someone had chewed John's ass out, he probably wouldn't have flown that night, though he probably would've later rollerbladed into a tree or something. I think this when I see Simple Jack's instagram feed: that boy ain't got no sense.

[QUOTE]The prevailing theme through most of these tragedies of the younger generation is the complete lack of judgement or common sense. Maybe that's a result of being wealthy

Possibly, but with the number of casualties, I can't help but think there's a very heavy genetic risk-taking component in addition to the alcoholism/addiction in this annoying family.

R450 I love the graduation video. John so relaxed and calling out to "Mommy!" So very normal. Especially loved the ending where we see Jackie clapping and happy. I like seeing her so animated. She seems like se was a fun, warm person in her private life. And I honestly don't blame her for her insistence, (often futile) on privacy.

OP crossed out and red-tagged.

[quote]OP crossed out and red-tagged.

I don't really understand how that happens or what it means. Can anyone explain?

OP has not been redtagged. Muriel controls redtags and by the looks of it she's several weeks into a bender somewhere, going by how unmoderated everything is on DL these days.

"Crossed out" or "greyed out" is more accurate. It means OP received some ratio of f&f votes for his post, resulting in the post being crossed out. It's DL's dumb "self moderation" feature and it's abused by trolls swarming posts they don't like and repeatedly f&fing it. No idea why they fixated on this thread but we do have some QAnon loonies and maybe they're offended that their little John John fantasies are being challenged by reality.

Thanks, R458. The OP seems uncontroversial to me, so I couldn't understand the greying out, I agree with you that the F&F feature is abused, and I think it should require more votes for a post to be greyed out.

On the other hand, of course, even though it's a little more difficult to read a post after it's greyed and scratched out, you can still read it, so in that sense the whole feature is pointless.

I think John and his mother were very close. YOu see how she lights up in the video when he passes and calls out to her. She and Caroline were close too, but different. John could get away with more. But he also wanted to stay on her good side. I read somewhere that he was very much into theatre while he was in college and toyed with the idea of acting, and she put the kibbosh on that. She told him to get serious about law school.

While I agree that he made a real bad decision to fly that evening, I still don't get "spacial disorientation" or what ever you call it when a pilot gets confused about the horizon and doesn't realize he is flying into the ground? I know nothing about flying. But it seems that the route from New JErsey to Martha's Vineyard was pretty straight foward and he couldn't have been flying too high . All he had to do was hug the coastline, right?

R461, supposedly he didn’t hug the coastline but rather flew over the ocean to get there faster. Just a bunch of bone headed moves.

OP is the same one spamming the board with Heartstopper posts. That's why it's red-tagged.

R463, the idea that anyone who's old enough to care about JFK, Jr. also cares about Heartstopper is rather depressing.

R461, I was driving in Massachusetts that Friday evening in 1999, roughly 20 miles from the Atlantic Ocean, and the fog was extremely thick, like a wall of white directly in front of my car.

To be flying over the ocean through fog that thick would be like flying blindfolded.

Did OP actually write that post or is it copy and paste?

R466 OP put it in speech quotes so probably it's a copy and paste. I can't remember but it's likely the original post linked to an article. (When posters are struck out or redtagged, their links disappear.)

John spent so much of his entire life on Martha's Vineyard, you'd think he'd know about the damned fog and the ocean, e tc.

[quote]John spent so much of his entire life on Martha's Vineyard, you'd think he'd know about the damned fog and the ocean, e tc.

Did John John associate with the Brody family? Like play touch football with Mike & Sean then dine with Martin and Ellen?

John John just wasn't very bright.

This video is excellent. It clears up a lot of misinformation . it was very well done.

I hate youtube videos from randoms.

R450/R455 Both of you are clearly hard of hearing. JFK Jr says clear as day "MAMMY!"

He said that when the plane hit the water?

Mammy - so what is that?

I learned a lot from the video at R471. For instance, I had no idea the fuel was carried in tanks attached to the wings. And that if you only used one tank at a time you threw the balance off.

Also want to add that once the plane started spiralling it was almost impossible to pull out.

R477 This wasn’t a helicopter. It did not spiral out of control. Once it touched the first depth of water it was threw.

[QUOTE] it was threw.

oh dear

R479 Take that o mix it with some hydrogen. And shove it up your arse.

He's Hot!

He's Sexy!

He's Dead!

It did spiral. If you watch the damned video it explains exactly how those planes act. You see the instrument panel and you learn about the structure of the plane itself, and you learn how the plane was descending too fast from 2500 feet and John was trying to correct it and it spiralled.

Poor Uncle Teddy had to identify the bodies, which must have been truly dreadful.

R430. John-John looks like Cary Grant in that photo and much older than his current would-be age of 62.

R430 Photo looks pretty accurate for 62. JFK Jr spent a lot of time outdoors. It's called weathered for a reason.

[QUOTE]And that if you only used one tank at a time you threw the balance off.

r476 - pilots are trained to switch those tanks for fuel regilarly, midflight to create a balance.

[quote]Pilots are trained to switch those tanks for fuel regularly, midflight to create a balance.

Yes, that is covered in the video.

R422, actually I am a professor at a major university and independently wealthy due to my father’s career in finance, as are my siblings. I’ve lived a long life in NYC, worked all my life and as I have posted, met and gotten to know an incredible cast of characters in addition to some close lifelong friends.

Charlie I've always liked you. I'm instinctively drawn to rich people.

^Jackie On Assistance

r437 link books that claim this. I studied history in college and have read books about the Kennedys, and have never once seen this claimed. Google also has not a single source that backs up your claim. So provide the book titles so I can research this claim.

I have read anecdotes in books (The Kennedy Women comes to mind) of the kids in that family calling their mothers “Mummy.” The Shriver kids did it too.

r492 name of the books????

I listed one above-The Kennedy Women

The Kennedys were classic social climbing lace curtain Irish parvenus. Of course they trained successive generations to address their mothers as "Mummy" like little wannabe British aristocrats.

r450 very cool, but he did not say mUmmy.... he very clearly didn't

r460 you think? Everyone knows they were close and he was a mommas boy. This is not only spoken, but documented. And to the poster who keeps comparing Jackie's relationship with her daughter to the relationship with her son clearly doesn't know their history or the typical mother/daughter vs mother/son relationships in these types of families, or in general. A mothers relationship with her daughter is always different than that with her son. She was close to Caroline but nothing like she was with her boy.

r463 weird, as I have never even watched Heartstopper. It's a show for 13 year old girls. I find it weird men your age are watching it.

r488 when does the lying come to an end? The lying is a bit much.

r495 Irish aren't British and dont use common British terms. They also were Irish American, and generational Americans. You claim to be Gen Z, you clearly dont know shit.

America has been independent from Britain since 1776. We were FAR REMOVED from all things British by the 1800s, yet alone the fucking 1960s. No Americans in the 60s and 70s were saying mummy.

Americans started calling their mothers mommy in the 1800s. In what world was a generational American family using mum in the 1960s and 70s?

[quote] No Americans in the 60s and 70s were saying mummy.

Clearly grew up outside of the milieu (and ignorantly)

"Mommy" was the common term for mothers in the USA dating back to 1844. Before that it was "mama" dating back to the 1570s. So "mummy" was never a big thing in the USA dating back to the late 1500s. "MOM" started in 1867.

So I highly doubt an American family was saying mummy in the fucking 1960s, 100 years later.

r503 as did you. I would post the proof you're an offender if it weren't illegal.... be thankful and humble yourself before someone has to do it for you.

Also, you have no education.

r503 you do not know what you are speaking about. Those types of families are families that had grandparents are parents from the UK. They were first or second generation Americans. That was not the case for the Kennedy family. Not to mention, we do not say "mum" in Ireland. We say "MAM", with an a.

For the insistent ignoramuses on this thread

Apologies if you have to endure the commercial.

Using Mummy instead of Mommy was an American upper class affectation. Re: Thurston Howell and Sonny Drisdale .

Incidentally, Eunice died in 2009.

R506 yeah but were they related to the kennedys?

Just want to apologize for giving Gen Z the internet.

This passage from the book "America's Reluctant Prince" includes JFK, Jr.'s toast at Caroline's 1986 wedding.

"After the wedding, the family and guests retreated to the compound, where a white tent large enough to accommodate a small circus covered the reception area for four hundred guests. John delivered a moving and heartfelt toast. “All my life, there has just been the three of us: Mummy, Caroline, and I,” he told an eclectic group of family, friends, and celebrities. Rob Littell remembered being “surprised at the depth of John’s emotions, because I hadn’t spent much time around him and his sister.”"

Do remember that Joe was Ambassador to the COurt of St. James for a quick minute and he, I am sure as well as Rose saw to it their children picked up British affectations whenever possible. Kick Kennedy was even Duchess of Devonshire wasn't she. So Mummy is better than the Irish "Mam."

The Kennedy children referred to Rose as "Mother".

R500, there's so much stupidity in your post I don't know where to begin! Let's start with how weird it is that you say I "claim to be Gen Z," where are you getting that from? I'm the older end of Gen X and never revealed my age on this thread.

Second, I know a lot about Irish Americans because I am one. I know the meaning of the words "Lace curtain Irish" and parvenu. My point was the the Kennedys were social climbers and traitors to their kind. They actively cultivated trappings and associations of the American ruling class, which was WASPy to the core and looked down on the Irish Catholic Kennedys as shanty Irish trash. They consciously cultivated and indoctrinated their children into assuming WASPish and, yes, British affectations, in order to climb ever higher on the social/society ladder.

I know that the Irish hate the British. I am not the idiot here. My point was they deliberately sought out any way to appear higher class and higher status to the people they wanted to impress, who were largely WASPs in Boston society and throughout the US.

Did little Jack Schlossberg attend his uncle's service?

Did he salute??

Mummy wins. Some people on this thread have egg on their face.

I genuinely doubt many Gen Z post on Datalounge. Very strange that someone is fixated on that.

It had nothing to do with ancestry and everything to do with Jackie's affectations. Mummy was a Jackie thing. Janet Auchincloss had Jackie and Lee call her Mummy. So they carried it down to their kids. Jackie also had her grand kids call her by the French Grand-Mère, Pretty bloody pretentious. Guess Mom and Granny were not an option for "Madam ".

24 yea ago I was jello wrestling in a kiddie pool with 2 men on this night. Hee hee.

^Melania Knavs

R516 He tossed a bagel on the waves.

Only DL can get into a spat over mummy mommy mammy….and I love you all for it. (Seriously!)

[quote] Jackie also had her grand kids call her by the French Grand-Mère,

They called her Grand Jackie (really).

Imagine, can’t believe next year will be both 30 years Jackie is gone and 25 for John, his wife and her sister. So many “famous” anniversaries of passing in that family. RIP

They called her Oh Great One.

r508 did you look up their background???

r495 no, they did not pretend to be British

r517 only he did not say mUmmy

r519 now that is believable, but that moron claimed mommy didn't become a thing until the 80s and that's a massive lie

I was born in the mid sixties and I called my parents mommy and daddy until I was a teenager.

Correct, r515! (Same Irish-American here, County Donegal). The Kennedys took their British aspirations and affectation to the Ambassadorship at the Court of St. James and the marriage and later liaison leading to the early death of Kathleen "Kick."

How did this thread devolve from a "He had a hot ass..." conversation to a stupid Mommy discussion?

The self-made rich are also incompetent and tend to fall out of the sky when they pilot. That's one thing you have to give credit to Travolta for: he hasn't killed anybody with a plane.

[QUOTE] How did this thread devolve from a "He had a hot ass..." conversation to a stupid Mommy discussion?

Um, because the subject of the thread is as light as air? I would guess that few people below age 65 know or care about "john John"