‘Last Call: When a Serial Killer Stalked Queer New York’: HBO Docuseries Pays Powerful Tribute to Lives Lost

Thanks for flagging, OP. Looks interesting. Do we know when it premieres? I decided to not read much of that review so that I can go in fairly cold. Max just says its "coming soon", but I was able to add it to my list.

R1, according to the article, it premieres this Sunday, July 9, on HBO. Not sure when it lands on Max but I would assume shortly thereafter.

Didn't Forensic Files do an episode on this guy?

Will Darren Criss be starring in the theatrical release?

I always felt like I was more likely to wind up dead picking someone up at the Townhouse than anywhere downtown.

It's a very sad story. People point out these crimes occurred during the aids crisis, being gay and male felt like a death sentence

[R3] They did. It was heartbreaking.

Queers, OP, not gay men.

[quote] In 1973, long before moving to New York City, Richard Rogers Jr. had killed a man and stood trial for murder, giving his fingerprints in the process. While a graduate student at the University of Maine, Rogers claimed his roommate, 22-year-old Frederick Spencer, attacked him with a hammer. In the ensuing melee, Rogers said he grabbed the weapon from Spencer and struck him in the head with it — eight times. He later dumped the body on the side of the road in a wooded area, according to The Journal News, a local New York newspaper. Rogers claimed he was acting in self-defense and was acquitted after spending six months in jail. He switched schools and left the area.

R6 what the fuck are you talking about? Go back under your rock in the mud.

MAGAT SCUM

Here's a DL thread about the book.

Book had problems, so I hope the doc is better.

The movie (and book) Cruising was based on the real life serial killing of gay men. It’s a movie many hated the moment they heard it was being made into a movie.

The people that did not complain came from the community of men shown in that movie. It’s worth a look and on , on demand now.

It's on Showtime in 15 minutes

It's on HBO in 15 minutes

It's being well done, in my opinion. I feel sorry for the woman who lost her father and I think he did a good job of raising her.

Wow, the first victim they profiled was targeted at The Townhouse.

Why are there a bunch of screaming bulldykes in that pic? I thought he murdered men.

Good context of what it was like to be gay in NY at that time.

"Queer New York"

Good lord it's never going to end, is it?

Yeah, the "Queer New York" bothered me too. This story is about GAY MEN.

r20 r21 Remember Queer Nation? That was 90's and the word was being used for LGBT. On most college campuses now there are Queer Student Unions, not Gay Student Unions.

Many of us use it as an all-encompassing word for homosexuals and bisexuals, male and female. Gay only refers to homosexual males. That's the whole point of the 'Q'. I'm not sure why it bothers anyone.

The documentary concerns gay men.

r23 Gay men are queer. That's my point. And these men may have been bisexual. One was married to a woman. Did they do a Kinsey test?

It's about not defining us by specific sex acts or self identity.

r24 it's about gay men, they should've just called it that.

“It's about not defining us by specific sex acts or self identity.”

I’m guessing the killer felt differently.

"Queer" is a bullshit term, r24. Moreover, these men were killed because they were attracted to other men, not because some of them may have also been attracted to women.

Things like Queer Nation and "we're here, we're queer" were jokey and probably the only context you'd find "queer" in back then (aside from use by homophobes). Gay and bisexual people didn't call themselves "queer". The use of "queer" took off with "queer theory", which teaches that homosexuality is a social construct.

[r27] That's not true. Went I went to UCLA the main LGBT organization was called the Queer Alliance.

It's used in the title of the article because it's the standard term now.

[quote]Undergraduate Organizations Queer Alliance Queer Alliance (QA) is a coalition of undergraduate student groups and serves as a space for all LGBTQ identifying individuals and allies. QA aims to build community and advocate on behalf of LGBTQ+ students.

Think of how "black" and African-American replaced words like "Negro" and "Colored".

I don't know why it bothers anyone. "Gay" sounds rather effete to me.

It bothers me because it lumps me in with causes and tactics that I prefer not be associated with.

r29 So does LGBTQIA+

Queer as I always understood it just means gay and bisexual, male and female.

Exactly R29, case in point, the picture with women in it. It was a man who targeted gay men, no one else, this isn't about some fat danger hair chicks wo date men, it's about gay men being killed for being gay men. I cringed when I saw the title.

When did you go to UCLA, r28? If it was a LGBT organisation then it was NOT an organisation for same-sex attracted people.

It bothers us because "queer" does not mean same-sex attracted person and it certainly does not mean exclusively same-sex attracted person. It is not "the standard term now".

LGBTQIA+ is also another garbage term. No, queer does not mean "gay and bisexual, male and female". It means all the T+ and the takeover of the LGB by the T+. You yourself said that the "Queer Alliance" at your uni was an organisation for trans people, i.e. it was open to straight people who identify as trans and was hence not organised on the basis of homosexuality.

You have also used the word "queer" to argue that this story isn't about gay men but could also be about bisexual men, whereas the very reason these men were targeted is because they were attracted to men, not because they were also attracted to women. And you yourself say that "queer" also covers women, so as r31, points out, this docuseries could refer to straight fat danger hair chicks who date men and maybe once kissed a girl at a party so now identify as "queer".

I personally am a lesbian, I'm not a bisexual woman, so why the fuck would I want to be described with a word that doesn't describe my sexuality and implies that I might date men?

strange... odd... weird

Exactly, my gay ass doesn't want to be grouped together with a woman who calls her boyfriend "my partner" just to make herself seem less hetero.

It's just so attention whorey to say. I'm QUEER! There's no dignity in it. Being gay is just one facet of someone's person, but being QUEER is just so everything. It's annoying and it's inaccurate. One of the patients where I work was a 62 year old, married to a man, from Seattle (of course) and for some reason in her intake she mentioned that she's queer...why would you mention that? since you're married to a man, it's not really relevant, it's not like your same sex partner's name needs to be put on a visitation list or a list for next of kin, so why would you fucking say you're queer? It's a way to be interesting for people who don't know how to cultivate any other aspects of themselves that might be attractive to others.

Did the Ucla group include furries? All those baby bruins running around…

So it’s another in a long line of stories about the real life serial killing of men who have sex with other men and the real issue is what we call or what title we give those men who have sex with other men.

No messing around right to the real heart of the story not the killings the definitions.

R24, queer does NOT mean gay men. Not anymore. Certainly not in today's vernacular. Frankly, it usually means anything but gay men.

This is a doc about gay men who were murdered. By using queer instead of gay it opens the door for people watching to assume the guys who died were actually trans or intersex or nonbinary. And I'm only half joking.

Those gay men died in large part for being gay. Not queer.

OMG, the woman who put 'queer' on her resume'... So it's gone from being a detriment to an asset?

I remember watching an episode of Chicago P.D., and the call came to go to the house of "an LGBTQ couple." For the life of me, I could not form a mental picture that included gay men.

Here's a free link to watch Episode 1

The Most Outrage. (Due out 4/1/2024)

A serial killer leaves bags of body parts of gay men all over Chicago with the word queer written on the bags.

It’s a story of murder, and outrage from a community that has been unfairly labeled , that community bravely comes together , to demand the killer and the media , start using the correct words.

Al Pacino to star. Someone named Dylan cast as his daughter.

R42 that's hysterical.

Now do one for TQ+ who demand everyone uses the correct words (ever changing pronouns, no deadnames, made up terms, etc.) lest they get unfairly labeled from a community! (I mean that would NEVER happen, right! Teehee. Satire is fun!) Oh, and of course, no need for an actual murder in this story! Just the never literal "literal" violence will suffice!

Then do one for the Hispanic community who get unfairly labeled.

Then do Blacks who get unfairly unlabeled.

Oh. Wait. You would never in a million years make a post satirizing that brand of of outrage, now would you? It's only "ridiculous" outrage when gays care about the "correct" words, right?

[quote] I don't know why it bothers anyone. "Gay" sounds rather effete to me.

It bothers us because you're making this about "queer" men when it was specifically GAY MEN who were targeted. This shouldn't be difficult to grasp.

I had the same problem with the book the show is based on. The author use the word queer quite often, but it was clear that he was using it to be oh ~so cool. The show is also strange, because they appear to be using the murders of gay men as an example of the mistreatment of people in the queer community. It is an odd fit.

Let me tell you, back in those days 99% of attacks were against GAY MEN.

R46

And back in those days those men were referred to as queers.

They sure were r47. By the thugs who attacked them.

Smear the queer!

[quote] And back in those days those men were referred to as queers.

r47 Yes, and we are reclaiming it as a word of power, because it scares them so much.

Gays get fat and get married. We queers are still our there doing it. 🤣

[quote]Yes, and we are reclaiming it as a word of power, because it scares them so much.

Actually, they really don't give a shit.

[quote]Gays get fat and get married. We queers are still our there doing it.

Sure, Jan.

[quote] Actually, they really don't give a shit.

r51 Actually they're obsessed with us. I'd prefer they just forget about us.

Gay men are only referred to as such when they are white and being blamed by enbys and trannies for being part of the evil patriarchy.

[quote] Actually they're obsessed with us.

Right, gay men are obsessed with YOU which is why YOU spend 24/7 on a site meant for GAY MEN.

r55 Hmmm. I was at work today and two straight guys were babbling about how gay was a choice and they're all going to burn in hell. I'm not sure why they care so much gay men's sex lives. Maybe you live on a different planet than I.

R34, and plenty of terrible people identify as gay....so what?

R54 is probably Milo or a gay Republican who votes against gays

R44, some might have been bisexual. So what's wrong with using queer instead of gay?

You seem pretty easily offended

Instead of actually talking about the show, the easily offended Milo clones will just whine about the word "queer"

Yes, let's please do quibble over our individuated self-understandings while a substantial seditionist minority continues its march to authoritarian power.

Nothing divides like self-division.

[quote] Did the Ucla group include furries? All those baby bruins running around…

r36 Maybe the LGBTQIA+ idiots will add an 'F' for furries since they're so intent on adding every possible sexual aberration known to man.

I'll stick with Queer, thank you very much. Better than the alphabet soup.

[quote] I was at work today and two straight guys were babbling about how gay was a choice and they're all going to burn in hell.

Right, GAY, not queer.

Meh, this deserves it's own thread.

Enjoyed the first episode. That sweet eldergay who had a relationship with the victim from 1991 was still handsome. If he’s a DLer - looking good.

Agreed the daughter was well spoken and very sympathetic. Heartbreaking.

The murderer was cute when he was very young. He had also been acquitted of his first murder based on self defense.

Watching now!

Yes, R65, that Eldergay was still handsome and had a beautiful speaking voice, too. I hope he got some more happiness in his latter years.

The EG from Palm Springs needs to take a weekwacker to those nose hairs!

The first guy in the second episode was fucking lucky. He said when he was lying on the floor the guy was looking down at him which means he got a good look at him.

Okay, DL sleuths... any guesses who the husband-and-wife Broadway actors are? The husband was noted as a confirmed client of Tony, the prostitute and main victim of the killer, profiled in episode 2.

So, it was a husband and wife couple, based in NY and, apparently, known for being NY theatre actors in the early 1990s. No other clues were given, but I'm guessing middle aged or older?

Hume & Jessica? That doesn't seem right.

Anthony Marrero, the gay hustler, was pretty hot at 44. Any DL guys ever meet him? He worked the Manhatten subway circuit.

HBO got their hands on a lot of archival footage, impressive.

Christ on a cracker Anita Bryant was SUCH a cunt.

I have a feeling that Mrs DeSantis is her reincarnation.

Johnny Carson used to target Bryant in his monologues during the 70s.

A lot of straight people thought Anita Bryant was a crazy cunt, too.

Looking forward to seeing this - I thought I posted a thread last year when the book first came out but can't find it.

oops, never mind, I see it mentioned upthread

Who knew Houlihan's was a good place for gay hustlers to pick up johns at one point in time?

Anthony Marrero looks like he had The Gift. 🎁➕

R71, I was wondering that myself

Anita Bryant is Ron DeSantis's inspiration

Really enjoying this series so far. Episodes are great and the context they give for the murders is so well done.

Love the older gay man and the lesbian from the anti-violence project. They are both so articulate and seem very kind.

[quote] We queers are still our there

Oh, dear.

[quote]Okay, DL sleuths... any guesses who the husband-and-wife Broadway actors are? The husband was noted as a confirmed client of Tony, the prostitute and main victim of the killer, profiled in episode 2. So, it was a husband and wife couple, based in NY and, apparently, known for being NY theatre actors in the early 1990s. No other clues were given, but I'm guessing middle aged or older?

Grover Dale and Anita Morris, r71/r82?

^ Good guess

I didn't realize Christine Quinn was involved in the AVP. I only knew her as a corporatist mayoral candidate when I first moved to New York, so it was surprising to see her involved in something seemingly punk-rock in the 90s.

I'm enjoying the series a lot. The elders definitely add a lot to it.

I was one of the last people to speak with Michael Sakara before he was murdered. When the police spoke with me, they asked if I remembered some guy wearing a Hawaiian-print shirt who sat next to and talked to Michael for quite a while. The way they asked me made the guy seem like a suspect. I almost hesitated to answer because the guy in the Aloha shirt was me. Fortunately, the bartender was a good friend and vouched that I had left the bar at 10 PM because I had to work the next day.

R89 might be the Queer-equivalent of the Grassy Knoll shooter

R89 tell us more

A sheer coincidence but...

When they finally caught Richard Rogers, I told the whole story about my encounter that night with Michael Sakara to my boyfriend (who is now my husband - almost 30 years together). He listened silently and then shared his story. The BF had dated Richard Rogers for a short time. They had met at a different bar, and had gone back to my BFs apartment at least two times. While nothing really weird happened, my BF said that he did not get good vibes from the guy.

I was shocked.

R92

M!

A!

R!

Y!

Goodness, you were really close to this story.

This series so far is great. Anyone have any details on the Town House? I’m assuming it’s long gone, what’s there now?

Townhouse is still around, still serving the same clientele.

FYI, my bar was The Five Oaks. My BF met Richard Rogers at Marie's Crisis. Both were in Greenwich Village a few doors apart. The Five Oaks is no longer there.

A few thoughts:

- For all a certain group screams about "genocide," this documentary shows that rampant anti-gay and -lesbian violence and the spread of HIV were what a real passive genocide looks like. Lesbians and gays would rarely go to the police if they got bashed because they knew nothing would be done, and the cycle would continue.

- The eldergay and elderlez take me back to the days when things were a bit grittier. Crappy storefronts, flyers, small gay/lesbian newspapers ... that was how the news was spread. I don't know when HRC and GLAAD were formed, but these giant gaseous groups with huge budgets and salaries didn't exist like they do today. It was neighborhood people in large cities who made slow, incremental change.

- I love the black trans sex worker! Smart, funny, but shrewd and deadly serious. This person's not going to have a mental breakdown over pronouns or "deadnames" or anything like that because she didn't have the privilege and spare time to do so; she was too busy just surviving. These people weren't getting their photos taken in women's bathrooms. They were fighting for their lives and the lives of a generation below them.

- The archival footage is quite impressive as well.

I'm looking forward to future installments.

r97 looking for any excuse to attack trans people. Sad.

It was good to hear a lot about Anthony Marrero, the hustler. Well it was good to hear about all the men but I'm especially thankful they treated Marrero with respect can care he was never given.

respect AND care

R99 he was a whore, darling!

When the black trans sex worker mentioned that she’s just now finding out about her friend Anthony Marrero’s death after wondering all these years what had happened to him was for me the saddest thing I heard in this documentary. Devastating.

I’m quite moved by Anthony’s nephew fighting for his murdered uncle to be thought of as he was and some respect for his life.

Against my desire to be tasteful, I couldn't help but wonder how much Anthony was packing. He was very short and in his 40s but still a street hustler. But I understood he was a bottom. His surviving old friend claimed Anthony would do dozens a day in his prime, which must mean Anthony was blowing guys or getting fucked.

[quote] Against my desire to be tasteful, I couldn't help but wonder how much Anthony was packing.

The DL never, ever disappoints

That’s what I assumed, R103. If you are an inexhaustible power bottom (who can retain a tight hole), you can go through dozens of tops in a day.

(Fun fact: A thousand years ago I was a bartender at the OW Bar on E 58th, right across the street from The Townhouse. The door guy (or maybe bar back? Can't remember) over there always had coke. He'd give me a few bumps for free drinks. Ah, NYC in your 20s was just so much fun.)

One thing the series is leaving out is that The Townhouse was always regarded as a hustler bar for those in the know. They keep goi g to other trashy locations and acting like that’s where the prostitute were. The Townhouse was a male prostitute bar in the 90s. Hence, Anthony (a street hustler) ending up there.

The Townhouse wasn’t a raunchy male hustler bar like Rounds or Cats, and was less obvious. It was for very upscale young men who dressed “preppy” or “wealthy,” and older, upscale gentlemen who liked younger men like that. In the 90s it was decidedly left over from a previous gay era. Some came to meet other men, a few just to hang out in such an environment, but many came to The Townhouse to make a financial transaction, that night. Repeatedly and reliably. Don’t sugar coat it with piano bars and velvet wall treatments!

I don't think they're being that coy about it. Maybe they're not being explicit about the nature of things being transactional, but they're selling the idea of the older closeted man (whether closeted deep enough to be married or simply just your standard early 90s Log Cabin Republican type) in whom a clean-cut young man might find....something of value.

I'm surprised that Anthony would have working in that environment. Being older and rougher, he didn't seem like he'd have been in amongst the Brooks Bros mafia.

R107 Thank you!

Also, the series is making gay life in NYC seem like nothing but Broadway queens and trans prostitutes. There were many other large facets of queer life in NYC in the 90’s. There were the circuit/muscle queens at Roxy, and in Chelsea at Splash, etc. There was the very large and growing East Village gay scene which was very arty drag and punk queers, and which had a large cultural impact.

They make it seem like gay life was nothing but The Townhouse, piano bars, the West Village, Broadway, and Julia’s.

Although they did feature ACT UP and Queer Nation.

There has also been little footage of guys working out in gyms. That really exploded in the 90’s in NYC.

Please remember the main subject of the series is a serial killer and the trail he left! It’s not supposed to be an all-inclusive summation of gay life in all five boroughs of NYC during the 1990’s. It’s only showing how the two intertwined.

I haven't been to the Townhouse in years, but went there quite a bit from the late 90s to the late 2000s. No, I wasn't a whore. I was a guy in my 20s/30s who lived on the UES and liked to pop in with some friends because the bar had such an old school vibe to it. As another poster said, it was from another era. A big mix of men from their 20s to absolutely ancient. Of course there were always some young guy who were obviously "working." It was a fun atmosphere and not sleazy at all, it was nice to have a crowd of gay men of all ages in the same place.

I didn’t know the area around the townhouse (east 50s) was “the red light district” for male prostitutes.

r113 they walk around the streets. I've heard that male prostitution in the east 50s goes WAY back, like to the early 20th Century.

All of it was seedy.

Fascinating r114. I live on the UES and had no idea.

I watched the first two episodes and am finding it very interesting. The guy that managed to come to after being roofied, and lock his apt door, getting the killer outside is SO lucky.

How did I miss this? I lived in NYC then.

Intrepid youth. You find some guy hot on the dance floor or in a bar, and you wind up fucking at his place. You don't worry about the risks, you want to get off.

What happened to Queer New York, anyway?

I just started the series

The people they’ve managed to track down are impressive. The older black drag queen was lovely.

Anonymous victim my god. Terrifying when he found the rope in the bag.

Anthony’s obit from the NYtimes was pretty disgusting for the 90s. “Crack addict, prostitute.” Real nice.

The second episode made me want to hunt down Anita Bryant and viciously face slap the old cunt.

Rounds was actually the bar for the hot and most professional trade. Not rough street trade - they stayed ON the street, hustling. Town House was unreliably a hustler bar. Many of the older gents in Town House thought they could get the "clean cut" younger guys there for free by dangling and trading their vip lifestyle. I was in my 20s we used to go there with my post Ivy League gay crowd, for shit and giggles. When the old gents wanted a no nonsense professional experienced hustler they went to Rounds with CASH and negotiated a price quite openly.

The whore’s life in the 80s should have been the title of episode 2. Sleeve balls.

Anthony wouldn't have been of much value in either place, by the way. Anthony is portrayed as Times Square rough trade, doing quickies for 10 bucks! The going rate at Rounds already in the 80s and early 90s was already starting at 200 and going up fast depending on how compelling the rent boy was. Business men from all over the world went to Rounds and the price was the same as London, Paris, Milan and Monte Carlo.

Anthony would have orbited through the trashy black and latino hustler bars in Times Square. And the tranny met him through their work at Adonis or one of the strip clubs. I used to drop in at Escuelita and Sally's several times a year. I liked to cover the "high and low" of nightlife.

Old article of hustling on 53rd.

A memoir of Rounds by Martin Doberman

Jack Kerouac went to Rounds?

Read the article, hunty, it's only a couple paragraphs.

If there is anyone here who hasn't watched last season's "American Horror Story", you should. It's basically aboout the two killers in the 80's in NY; The serial killer and AIDS.

Well that's nice, R131. This documentary is about a serial killer in the 1990s.

r131 - I tried to start it, but found it relentlessly cheesy and the performances bordering on silly. And I say that as a fan of several of those actors. Ryan Murphy is so hit and miss. I've enjoyed some series he's produced/written, but his pulpier stuff like AHS isn't for me. And I was excited about that season given the subject matter and time period.

A FAR superior series on the intersection of porn, sex work and nightlife in NY in that era is The Deuce. There are some gay characters, but it's certainly not an explicitly gay or queer series, but it's damn good.

The Deuce is set in the 1970s.

The Last Call serial killer was in the early 1990s.

Everything clear now?

By Arthur Bell

That's name I haven't seen or heard in ages. Flash from the Past.

R127 (Meeting two hustlers: the doorway & the sofa)

It’s interesting how much the apps changed things. With Grindr and scruff, there are less bars where people meet in social settings.

[QUOTE] The Deuce is set in the 1970s.

The first two seasons take place in the 1970s (first season is 1971 and second season is 1978). The third season took place in 1984.

Mr. Fucking Know-it-All.

Oh too bad R131, I really loved it! R134 doesn't understand fucking composite characters and stories.

Shit, I meant to say the first part to R133.

R138 I understand the AHS very well. It takes place in 1981. A DECADE before the Last Call Killer.

You wrote: "It's basically aboout (sic) the two killers in the 80's in NY; The serial killer and AIDS."

This serial killer was no operating in 1981. The culture of NYC and the AIDS epidemic was significantly different in 1991 than in 1981.

Do you want to continue digging in your ahistorical chacha heels?

Does the show address the whole Giuliani then mother-in-law hospitalization link to the timing of the arrest craziness?

R141 No, I don’t think so. Please elaborate? 🤔

Sorry mother not mother in law.

R134's reading comprehension is not all that it could be. R133 never said that The Deuce was set in the same period as the events in this documentary series. Pompous old fool.

Just the pertinent section from the interview I linked.

[quote]By summer 2001, law enforcement was closing in on Rogers as the prime suspect. But his arrest was a mess. Myriad, multi-state agencies had worked out a weeklong surveillance plan to gather evidence. Then—boom—NYPD just swooped in and scooped him up, without letting the plan unfold. Why? This is what I think happened, and it’s also informed by what detectives think happened: It was well known that Helen Giuliani (mother of the city’s then-mayor, Rudolph Giuliani) was at Mt. Sinai Hospital [where Rogers worked]. It had been reported in The New York Times. And once the NYPD got wind of the surveillance operation, what I think happened is that (then-police commissioner) Bernard Kerik, who was famously close to Giuliani, most likely just made the decision to pull Rogers out…even though it was preposterous to think that Helen Giuliani was in any kind of danger.

oh that 1st guy in the 2nd ep talking about his brother is STILL in deeeeeeeppppp denial

Weird that the trooper/FBI guy was like, "why the focus on the gay stuff?" UH IT'S PERTINENT TO YOUR CASE, YOU DUMB SACK OF SHIT.

I was sad for the guy in Palm Springs that was remembering his friend.

oh

Does anyone have a link to the article at r148 without a paywall?

R149 - use 12ft.io

I'm cheap!

R149 try opening it in private browsing mode.

The eldergay with the patch and the sweet lesbian sister are breaking my heart on tonight’s episode.

Did any of you NYC Eldergays ever go to Five Oaks?

[quote]The eldergay with the patch and the sweet lesbian sister are breaking my heart on tonight’s episode.

Me too. And the straight woman who worked as a bartender at the piano bar and obviously loved her patrons (and vice versa). What an amazing collection of people.

Also the way that lesbians and gay men cooperated on their mutual interests, fiercely defended each other, but still had their own societies.

Michael was fucking hot.

I felt so terrible when his ex was remembering their time together.

I went to Five Oaks a bit but was not a habitué. Piano Bars were not my thing though I enjoyed the times I went.

I went to Five Oaks a lot. Enjoyed the bar, the food, and Marie Blake at the piano. She played there for over 20 years and died in 1993 at 74 years old.

R158 do you remember when Sakara was murdered?

R159

No, I don't. I had left NYC by 1990.

This series is so well done. It’s also a history of gay rights. I’m really impressed.

R161 episode 2 was informative about gay prostitution and a sad drag queen

I loved the song that was played - Beam Me Up by Midnight Magic. This song came out years ago and I don't know how I missed it.

It’s so sad that that the guy in 2nd ep won’t admit his bro was gay 😔

The Townhouse. We used to go there when we’d spent all our money at Splash and Hell. Free drinks from older guys. Laughs from the old queens (not queers, which I’ve learned is not to be used in this thread) singing show tunes. A couple of times guys tried to give me money to go home w them. Never did it. Was always a little shocked they thought I was a hooker. In hindsight I totally get why they thought I was a hooker. Good times.

Having lived as a gay man in NYC in the 90’s, I’m enjoying this series.

I do agree with posts above though, this killer really was on the “old school” west village, showtunes, piano bar circuit.

I also agree with some posts above, that I don’t remember this happening? Which is weird because I used to go to ACT UP and Queer Nation meetings at the old LGBT Center in the early 90’s. Then again I’ve never even heard of The Five Oaks. Maybe it was just another world.

The apartment of the guy with the patch has me intrigued. Is that a typical NYC place? So tiny.

Working class or low middle class apartment from days gone by, yes. It's good he's still there. He must have rent control.

[quote] It’s so sad that that the guy in 2nd ep won’t admit his bro was gay

I don't want to be unnecessarily mean but that man seemed to be very dumb in general. And even if he wasn't.....guys like him are unwilling to let go of denial.

I have a different take on it. He knew his brother was gay but he will never say it. He very precisely knew he was avoiding answering all the questions by saying it was his brothers private affair - how he lived, how he made money, who his friends were. Brothers know all this and he didn't because he KNOWS but won't say it. I don't find this so sad, it's just old school that maybe people don't remember anymore.

I also don't think that man is all that dumb because he is sitting in his clean and spacious American house or apartment, and raised a family, coming from poverty in Puerto Rico. Smart enough to achieve the American dream though hard work. Unlike his slutty brother.

Well, SMELL Miss R170/R171!

I lived in the East Village during this whole era and never heard of any of it. The West Village was like a whole other country. I basically never went west of Broadway.

I loved the two lesbian grandmas so much.

Lisa Hall was totally the Liza of Five Oaks, wasn't she?

What a shame the Five Oaks closed. I guess the Townhouse is still around?

The Townhouse is still around. And apparently has made the same social media post every day for about 10 years.

Are there any Locust Valley Lockjaw eldergays still alive in Manhattan? I think all the old swells and poseurs were culled during the pandemic. And I see Ashton Hawkins died of old age last year.

The Townhouse isn't the same vibe. Younger people (i.e. people in their 40s) do go there now. It's not strictly an "old man and his hooker" situation.

Old Man and His Hooker sounds like a bizarre sequel to The Old Mand and the Sea

How did that Michael stay every night til closing and still hold a job?

They said he was a typesetter for the New York Law Journal. Those jobs had weird hours.

r181

what much did that job make?

R180 my question as well. But perhaps he worked afternoon and evening then went over.

R180 I wondered that too. Closing time at 4am? I wouldn't be anywhere before noon.

If he was part of a union, he made a pretty nice living.

Michael worked the afternoon shift and would get to The Five Oaks around 8 or 9 PM. Michael's boyfriend, Jim Griffith, who was interviewed after having a stroke, was an absolute stunner when he was young. If I remember correctly, he was the stage manager for all those Gerard Alessandrini FORBIDDEN BROADWAY shows.

It was great seeing Lisa Hall in the interviews. She was one of several wonderful bartenders at The Five Oaks, along with Alice, the waitress. I watched with some trepidation as they showed pictures from that time, afraid I might show up in one. Thankfully, no, but I did know most of the people who were shown, including Dominic Morano, an older married man I dated for several months. I was surprised at how good everyone looked compared to my memory of them. I was not surprised by how much everyone drank, including me. FYI, I stopped drinking entirely in 1996.

The interviewees stressed that Michael was a "sweetheart" or a "teddy bear," and for the most part, that was true. However, what was not mentioned was that Michael had a temper, fueled by alcohol, and he could fly into a rage at any time and for any reason. Because he was so eloquent, those rages could be devastatingly cruel. Think Harold from BOYS IN THE BAND. I know because one night, that anger was aimed at me. Michael screamed at me for about 10 minutes, about absolutely nothing, with everyone else just staring in shock and disbelief, including me. I remember that Jim Griffith was there that evening, and I looked at him, hoping he would intervene. Jim said nothing and did nothing. I will never forget that.

So, that's why it was interesting on Michael's last night at the bar that he engaged me in conversation. I was initially hesitant, fearful that the rage would rear its ugly head again. But surprisingly, it was a lovely extended conversation with Michael, acting as if he had no memory of that previous confrontation. I've told friends I'm glad that was my last memory of Michael before he was killed.

Wow, r186! Thanks for that story.

R89/R186 thank you for sharing your story. Wow, I'm glad you made it to tell the story. Michael seemed like an interesting guy.

Thanks for the stories r89/r186.

Fascinating

MARY!

(meant with respect)

Knowing the last song Michael sung at THE FIVE OAKS was “I’ll Be Seeing You” before being murdered is haunting.

Did anyone else think Michael’s sister’s girlfriend was their mother at first or was that just me? 😳

a quick google search shows that a typesetter only makes in the high 20Ks... would someone almost 30 years make more? Was it more important back then?

I did too

If the murderer was targeting all sorts of LGBTQ etc etc etc then by all means, call it "queer" but it was strictly gay men, so take the queer and shove it.

Out of respect I am trying not to be annoyed by that nice old lesbian who was a hero at the antiviolence group. I'm sad she has drunk the koolaid and has retro fitted everything as queer.

R89 I think you mean Michael ,not Harold from BITB

R195, one of the victims was married to a woman, had kids, and quite possibly saw himself as bi rather than gay.

What a weird thing to get worked up about.

Sorry, that was meant for R186

R198 what a weird thing to want to erase your own identity

R200, whose identity is being erased? You don't know how he identified

I'm surprised by people above mentioning they don't remember this when it happened.

Are you guys NYers? And should I presume the NY press underplayed the crimes?

I remember it because it was covered in NJ newspapers and I remember thinking how creepy it was that some homophobic psycho was on the loose.

Anyway I'm really enjoying this series. It's so well put together with great interviews mixed with old clips.

I remember seeing it on the evening news when body parts were discovered.

I could imagine the local news coverage in NJ being more expansive than in NY, at least initially. Just a guess.

I was in high school at the time this happened and lived in the tri state area and I don't remember hearing about it.

I lived in western PA at the time and vaguely remember reading about this somewhere as part of national news. Probably when they caught the killer.

Fucking Queers!

R205 exactly they ran one story and dropped it, unless you read flyers in Greenwich Village you probably wouldn’t know.

I should add that if it was straight guys who worked in finance who were being murdered it would've been all over the national news.

[quote]You're a sad and pathetic man. You're a homosexual and you don't want to be, but there's nothing you can do to change it. Not all the prayers to your god, not all the analysis you can buy in all the years you've go left to live. You may one day be able to know a heterosexual life if you want it desperately enough. If you pursue it with the fervor with which you annihilate. But you'll always be homosexual as well. Always Michael. Always. Until the day you die.

Harold, from Boys In The Band

“ Always Michael. Always. Until the day you die.” r210, the best scene in the film.

There was another serial killer targeting gays a bit earlier than this. The killer would chop up the bodies, put them in a bag, and throw them in a river. The press actually used the headline: "fag in a bag".

R210 all well and good but it was Michael that got all drunk and vicious, Hally just said that to Michael after he had finally had enough of his shit.

I wrote the "fag in a bag" headline

I think I can remember the great Sue Simmons reporting these murders on Live at 5. Or maybe it was Liz Smith.

It wasn't front page news, but it was definitely news.

did not expect to hear Midnight Magic's Beam Me Up. Which was made about 10 years ago but totally has that sleazy 70s disco vibe.

R217 that’s what happens when idiot Gen Z makes decisions. It’s not an authentic vibe.

It's a great song though.

R219 yeah but the music should be historically accurate

I think many people with iffy visual literacy will not pick up how much sleight of hand "illustration" and "reenactment" is performed in this documentary, as well. I like this documentary but it's certainly not "rigorous" in some ways. It's on the emotional side in tone. That's fine.

Has anyone else caught glimpses of an indie film from 1986 called PASSING GLANCES used as bits of nightlife footage? In the last episode there was a shot of two sneakered men in bed that was from that film, among some other shots.

Nevertheless, I think all the bits of reenactments, wherever they're from, are brilliantly done and never take me out of the true story.

When they showed it, I suddenly did remember seeing that AVP flyer in east village bar bathrooms, that said something like “There’s a serial killer murdering gay men in NYC, why are the NYPD doing nothing?” In big letters. But beyond the flyer, which I doubt I read all of, I knew very little. At the time it seem to just get swept up in all the “disturbing rise in homophobic violence” wave that was in all the queer media at the time.

I think looking back, many people did conflate these crimes with the late-70’s bag/Paul Bateson murders in NYC. Even though they were well over a decade apart.

I agree that the producers/directors have used a very light touch in terms of reenactments, etc to evoke the scene.

I always hated that about other true crime programs and it turned me off to watching them. But it's been very nicely done here, enough to help the viewer visualize but not overused. There's so much b-roll from that time that they certainly aren't at a loss to depict the scene with actual images and film.

I teared up when they showed Michael's sister and the male voice was singing "I'll be seeing you."

MARY!!!!!!!!!!!! *sobs*

I remember that Manhattan cable TV had local gay shows/reporting. This is where I heard of this when it was happening. Gay Cable Network. Reporters like Andy Humm. There were flyers put up around Chelsea alerting people.

Oh lord the Marys getting triggered over the word "queer" are so tiresome

Did they ever track down his known accomplice, Oscar Hammerstein???

Also, wasn’t that movie “Fat Man and Little Boy” a documentary about the Townhouse?

Queer? Did the killer target non-binary, white, straight girls with blue hair?

A Trans womynz of colorx received the first stab.

Mattfatso has joined the chat

[everyone leaves]

Bye

Non-binary vegan poets on break from Ivy League and Seven Sisters.

R231, at least one of the victims wasn't out as anything so how do you know how he would have identified?

By the way r234 and r235 IS Defacto

Defuckto is the kind of self loathing fascist sack who would pull a Richard Rogers

Yes r238. Yes.

[quote]at least one of the victims wasn't out as anything so how do you know how he would have identified?

Well he fucked guys so what the fuck do you think that's called?

R240 hasn't heard of bisexuality

Like many men of his era he was gay and he got into a marriage with a woman for societal/career reasons. I wouldn't call that bisexual. His extramarital trysts were all with men.

Yeah but he got it up enough to father a few kids. More than I could do.

R242, you don't know who he was or wasn't having affairs with

[quote] His extramarital trysts were all with men.

Well, as far as we know. This show wouldn't give a damn about any other affairs.

But really, this is a very rigid thing, this need to actually nail down the exact nature of his diagnosis. He was a guy married to a woman who fucked other guys on the side. What does that make him in the All Important Grand Roll of Sexualities? Who knows?

People who use "queer" will tell you it's simply a neutral catch-all term and in the next breath will speak of "queer politics". "Queer" means strange and those who use the term see themselves as fundamentally opposed to mainstream society. I'm not talking about the merits or demerits of their position, just pointing out that the term is not neutral and thus not appropriate. Gay is a neutral term which, whether or not the men were exclusively homosexual, describes the characteristic that links all the men.

If they weren't exclusively homosexual then "gay" does not accurately describe them.

And, no, people who use the term "queer" do not necessarily see themselves as opposed to the mainstream.

Both gay and queer have alternate original meanings that are not neutral.

I find this hysteria around the word queer rather ahistorical as Queer Nation was a big thing in the early 90s and the word was pretty widely used then. I mean it’s not a term I particularly care for, but the argument about it doesn’t seem organic at all. It seems awkward and forced like a pretend fight put on to distract you while someone picks your pocket.

The queerest of the queer

It's not the hysteria about being traumatized about being called queer ElderLez. It's the vagueness. These days it really just doesn't mean anything much at all. Somebody says "I'm Queer" and I have absolutely no idea what they mean by that. Gay? Lesbian? Bi? Nosering? Asexual? Dingbat? Who the fuck knows?

I'm never going to warm to "queer" and by the way, nobody asked us old folks to planning sessions about the change in lingo.

Yeah and people use "gay" as an insult, too (That's so gay!)....so what's your point?

Your charm and respect, R252, might win me over on queer. Oh, wait.

Please take the “queer word” argument to another thread! There was probably a lively one back in 1990, if DataLounge scrolls back that far.

R254 = homely hall monitor

[quote] Yeah but he got it up enough to father a few kids. More than I could do.

Well dear, you could just get your wife a latex Henry Cavill mask. That should do the trick!

Last Call: When a Serial Killer Stalked Gay & Bisexual New York

[quote]Has anyone else caught glimpses of an indie film from 1986 called PASSING GLANCES

No nobody caught that because nobody knows what the fuck that was.

[quote]yeah but the music should be historically accurate

It's such a fucking great song though. Even Michael would've approved. Well, before he got chopped up and thrown into garbage bags in New Jersey

What was the bigger insult - getting chopped up or being left in New Jersey?

I knew immediately where it was from: Parting Glances. It was 1986, so the oldtimers might be kicking in a bit for R222

R260 here. That was for R258, who doesn't know his queer history!

r261 Parting glances is rather obscure. We know Donna Summer and Studio 54, though.

All DLers should see PARTING GLANCES if they're not aware of it. Brilliant indie film that was made when AIDS was a death sentence.

Know your history.

R258, I agree with R262. The fact that your knowledge of the history gay cinema is confined to Bros is not something you should wear as a badge of honor. But then, you probably are part of the It Pats to Be Ignorant Trump generation that thinks that if something preceded their birth it’s not worth knowing about. Enjoy your tenth viewing of Barbie this weekend.

Many of us saw PARTING GLANCES but Mary upthread called it "Passing Glances." Some of you missed the point.......

We were having a lovely discussion but now the Minutiae Hair Splitting Queens have arrived to stink up the joint.

Darling, "gay" is not neutral.

And "gay" was itself, for a time, a neologism - a catchall term to replace what was thought to be outdated terms. Like faggot. Swishy. Nelly. Diesel.

Miss R264 Has Stated Her Boundaries!

Riveting. Can't wait for the finale.

Did anyone read the book?

r270 yes

I've never seen Parting Glances and I'm just fine with that. And Barbie is woke horseshit.

Criticizing movies for being "woke" makes you sound like Ben Shapiro

Makes you sound like an asshole r273. And Barbie is a piece of shit.

R274, you're the one looking like an asshole. Whining about "wokeness" just makes you seem like a Ron DeSantis clone.

Woke can be used by everyone, not just conservatives. Apparently America Ferrara has some bullshit monologue in the film. Pass. And Margot Robbie is too sloe eyed and Ryan Gosling is too old.

Go ahead and tank this thread too, you shrieking banshees.

I started the book and got about a third through it. I found it very dry, like a newspaper account. The author is straight, which might explain the lack of emotional engagement. This series is a far better telling of the story.

When PARTING GLANCES came out in 1986, most gay men, even in NYC, didn't yet know anyone who had contracted or died from AIDS. All that would change in a few years, of course, as we watched friend after friend succumb, helplessly. But the film was a shocking wake up call, a highly emotional story simply told.

Please know that if you hate on things by calling it "woke" what you're signaling is that you're a cranky old fuck. You've become your parents.

Congrats, girls!!

^^just a cunt

My parents are in their forties

In NYC, plenty of people had died of AIDS by 1986, 5 years into it. What are you talking about?

"Woke" is what whiny nubdick incels say.

R278 Elon Green is the author - he's a decent writer but yes, he is straight and thus I think he did have a bit of an emotional wall with the topic. And I agree the series covers a lot more nuances that the writer of the book didn't quite capture.

But I think Green did a decent job of building the foundation for how to tell this story in 2022/2023 and putting it all in context.

R284 is a woke cunt

I’ll check out parting glances - thank you for the recommendation

r283, of course, plenty of people had died of AIDS by 1986, but I'll still insist that MOST gay people still had not experienced the plague personally, meaning had loved ones and close friends who had died. I was 37 in 1986, a West Village resident since 1972, out for well over15 years and with a bf for 8 years. No one in our circle of friends had died yet. The constant death toll didn't seem to affect us personally until about 1990 and continued through 1994 or so when new medicines started saving many lives.

How many of your friends had died by 1986?

Lucky you R288. You were very much an outlier.

The good meds didn’t arrive until 1997.

R298, I wonder who your circle of gay friends were at the time? Where did they work? Were they conservative, liberal, or out there? Were they sexually active (meaning sluts) or partnered, religious, or closeted? I don't mean to be judgmental or snide, but in 1986, I had lived in NYC for 12 years, but I worked in the theatre. I had lots of friends and acquaintances who were dying by then.

My first time confronting a suspicious death happened when someone I worked with - an Asian/Indian - had been ill for quite a while with chronic coughing, night sweats, loss of appetite, and general malaise. He was finally diagnosed with Tuberculosis, and I thought two things: 1.) Oh, thank god, they can cure tuberculosis, and 2.) Who gets tuberculosis in New York City?

Well, in less than two months, he was dead, with doctors and friends still not sure what was really going on with him. Who dies of tuberculosis in the US? Years later, I thought back and realized that he had died from AIDS. Understand that this was in 1979, and he was 23 years old!

Just watched Parting Glances on Tubi. My god. What a beautiful film. I had never even heard of it.

Thanks DL.

A beautiful film with the stunningly beautiful John Bolger.

r291, I'm also a long-time (backstage) theatre professional, working in NY and regional theater since 1978, so I certainly knew lots of gay men of all ages. My social circle mostly consisted of other theater people and we were a work-obsessed bunch. Not to say people didn't get out and fool around but we weren't much into the bar scene. Again, I'd maybe hear of someone I went to school with years before dying in the late 80s, but it hadn't really touched me personally until about 1990. I think Howard Ashman was the first famous person I heard dying of AIDS.

I can remember working on a new play in 1987 that had a joke about how "the Ayds company (who made diet pills) were sure gonna have to change their name now". It seemed almost funny back then.....

And FWIW I only vaguely remember these murders.

[quote]I can remember working on a new play in 1987 that had a joke about how "the Ayds company (who made diet pills) were sure gonna have to change their name now". It seemed almost funny back then.....

Was that Terrence McNally's "Lips Together, Teeth Apart"?

The Ayds joke was popular in 1982.

[quote]There was another serial killer targeting gays a bit earlier than this. The killer would chop up the bodies, put them in a bag, and throw them in a river. The press actually used the headline: "fag in a bag".

R212 - was in this in the NY area, too? Anymore details? I hesitate to Google "fag in a bag"

R297 See R224

Where did Jeffrey Dahmer fit into all of this history? Or was he more of a Midwestern thing? I don't think his name has been uttered (yet) in the mini-series.

R299 I don't know that they would mention Dahmer, unless they wish to compare the killer's motivation to similar killers.

This docuseries has been focused on telling the stories of the victims, though clearly they have to cover the killer in this final episode.

[quote][R297] See [R224]

I don't think they ever conclusively linked the bag murders to Bateson, although I remember William Friedkin claiming that Bateson partially confessed when he interviewed him as he was preparing to shoot Cruising.

R301 Correct. Officially it’s an unsolved case even if many people think he did it, including investigators, and some who were close with him. The Friedkin confession story is interesting.

I applaud HBO for showing a clip of DeSantis right after a clip of Anita Bryant.

I couldn't help but laugh when the detective mentioned the killer started farting up a storm uncontrollably during his questioning.

I admit I laughed out loud when the detective said Rogers had every episode of The Golden Girls on VHS.

Bravo to HBO!

The finale did not disappoint. What a brilliant series. Gays of all ages must watch this.

R305 - and a single episode on each tape!!

That detective is going to be read to the Gods for those comments about THE GOLDEN GIRLS. 😂

The detective couldn't understand why A MAN would watch The Golden Girls, he said something to the effect of "that's a show my mother would watch. Why was this guy so into The Golden Girls?"

I think as gay men we forget how absolutely, totally clueless some straight people can be about gay culture.

Rogers should have received the death penalty and then carried out.

Very well made series that sensitively focused upon the victims and the systems of homophobia that enabled Rogers killings. I'm all for not glorifying a serial killer... that said, it would have been interesting to have learned a little more about Rogers beyond what his college friend shared.... not to justify his killings nor to ignore the broader themes the docuseries brought to light... but just because it can be interesting to learn how the early part of a killer's life influence their eventual path. It sounds like he's been suspected of other murders in Florida and Connecticut. Perhaps others we'll never know about, too.

And, how infuriating to know that if those gay panic defenses hadn't been accepted in his earlier trials, none of this would have happened in the 90s.

The director or directors did a nice job of introducing us to some truly lovely gays, lesbians, straight family members and the trans sex worker.

[quote]I admit I laughed out loud when the detective said Rogers had every episode of The Golden Girls on VHS.

And Dynasty!

R250, today I was listening to a radio station where they were interviewing a young female musician. She was talking about her difficulty writing her latest album because she, a queer woman, was married to a man who wasn't queer.

I had no fucking clue what that meant. Is she bi? Or a lez who found love with a man? Or trans? Or what?

I don't care about the word queer being used I just don't what the fuck it means. And I do know the meaning of these words, instantlt: gay, trans, bi, homosexual, lesbian, nonbinary, asexual, a furry.

So why not just use specific words, since, well, we have them at the ready.

R294 I was just six years old in 1986 and two of my mother's good friends died of AIDS that summer. I remember it so vividly because she was so devastated by it. (I didn't quite understand just what AIDS was until a few years later. But still.)

This was in LA.

I think you were very, very lucky.

What a great finale. I was truly moved by it.

And a fantastic series that is just so overwhelmingly sad to me.

It's sad that he got away with killing one guy and attacking another because of "gay panic" bullshit

Did Richard Rogers have sex with other men? The series never says.

[quote]So why not just use specific words, since, well, we have them at the ready.

Why do these kids today say "jeans" when we had a perfectly fine word - dungarees!

As soon as the detective remarked with surprise how immaculate and ordered the killer’s home was, and that he vacuumed “in rows” (with photos!) I immediately thought of DataLounge.

No love for us gay icons??

R320 Yes! I can’t believe how much of that clip they showed. The last episode of this really delivered.

[quote] As soon as the detective remarked with surprise how immaculate and ordered the killer’s home was, and that he vacuumed “in rows” (with photos!) I immediately thought of DataLounge.

I’ve not watched the episode yet, but I must know:

Did he drain his pasta?

Minor detail but what Manhattan man accepts to get in a car with a stranger, met in a bar midtown, or downtown, to drive with this stranger all the way to Staten Island for some sex?

His college roommate was remarkably handsome. A real looker. Despite some acne. Sounded gay too. What a shame.

Richard wasn’t ugly as a college youth but had an awkward, plain face, and a weird look in his eyes.

I imagine with a gay roommate (were they assigned roommates?) dynamic like this, sleeping in tight quarters might have lead to all kinds of odd situations.

The roommate died from multiple blows from a hammer to the back of his head. Richard then wrapped the body in a plastic tent and tried to dispose of it. In court he claimed the “gay panic” defense, claiming the roommate came onto him. And he got away with it.

Hmm…

R324 Richard came onto the roommate, and was rebuffed. He flew into a rage at some point and killed him.

R325 Just like Bette Davis did in that long clip from HUSH, HUSH SWEET CHARLOTTE! Did you see it? I thought it was a reenactment at first.

Michael was a sad and charming man. Highly opinionated, didn't tolerate bullshit. I sat near him at the 5 Oaks bar for years, and he had an angry side to him. Jim was a stabilizing influence in his life, but when Jim was suddenly out of his life, Michael wouldn't discuss it and no one dared ask. Marie Blake adored him, and he would often sing "Down In The Depths On The 90th Floor" with her. There were a few customers at the Oaks whom Michael despised, and he would get very vocal about it. When I heard of his murder, I couldn't wrap my head around how someone as smart and savvy as Michael would get in a car with a total stranger.

I also wonder whatever happened to Ginger, who owned the Oaks.

It's absolutely mind-blowing that Rogers was acquitted in that first case and that the notoriety of the case did not follow him down to the Florida college he attended. His Florida college friend the blond wig lady was very nutty, no?

I felt bad for the aged Laura Dean college friend but there was something off about her.

Dern*^

The daughter of Thomas Mulcahy was an incredible addition to the series. The insight and depth of her musings were so heartfelt and heartbreaking. I mean, all of the victims' relations were wonderful, all so articulate in their different ways.

I really believe the killer spiked Michael's drink before they left the Oaks.

I was with Richard Rogers once, back in the day. Say what you want about him but he was a dynamite lay.

Florida Southern was founded by methodists. Maybe it was a little boutique, possible progressive but still "christian-lite" campus?

MARY!

I thought the series was "just ok", not particularly engaging... too many old/retired cops talking about how hard it was for them to engage the "gay community"... I did think the daughter of the man from Boston was one of the most interesting people... she seemed so genuine and accepting of her gay dad.

I also observe that the producers/director of the series tried to focus on the victims and their lives more than being obsessed with Rogers as a serial killer. So many crime series focus so much on the criminal ... and the victims are just byproducts of the story.

How old are you, r336? Just curious...

[quote]I thought the series was "just ok", not particularly engaging... too many old/retired cops talking about how hard it was for them to engage the "gay community".

That's exactly what it was like back then. It was important to hear from those old cops.

Well, it's not surprising when gay men were arrested by cops regularly to understand that duh, gays and lezbians are not going to run to the po po with open arms.

I was also very surprised that anyone in Manhattan would go to some shitty condo in filthy Staten Island for sex... he must have lied about where they were going and targeted men who were very drunk.

Loved that old NJ detective who couldn't understand the Golden Girls episodes. That was a funny exchange between him and the director in a really heavy situation.

The NJ prosecutor was also likable.

And really loved Mulcahy's daughter. I teared up when she said she heard that song at pride and remembered her father liked it. She was lovely.

Great series. So well done.

I hope Richard Rogers were never a DLer.... MARY!

I feel foolish even asking this question (like, how could I miss this) but did the documentary tell us how Rogers killed his victims before he cut them up? Were they unconscious when they were killed?

R341 That was part of my observation about how the series didn't focus that much on the killer (not as much as some true crime, which will hone in on motives, mindset, details of the killing and killer). We know that the first victim, the college roommate, wasn't killed by the 12 hammer blows to the back of the head, but rather was suffocated by plastic bag over his head. There was the odd detail, "....Rogers was small and weak and couldn't lift the dead bodies and that's why he cut them into parts." Really? How do they know that? He was nurse, after all, who will have to lift patients etc.

R377 I'm 72. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

The Golden Girls on VHS made me immediately think of DL.

I don't understand why Rogers didn't just wrap his victims whole in a tarp and dump them off a lonely pier into the ocean or a big lake. Wouldn't the water damage have erased any fingerprints or other evidence tying him to the murder, should the body eventually surface?

My father never killed any of those men, but God knows, he was certainly mean enough.

If you thought Charlotte decapitated that man, you obviously don't know the real story!

He was a Pediatric Nurse so his lifting was probably confined to babies.

I thought the opening scene of the last episode Fred was so moving when she said, “you can’t wrap your head around a violent death” and it quickly cut through all of the victim’s relatives and they all looked shattered.

I really enjoyed the series and agree that the daughter’s comments were so touching. One thing I didn’t understand is why Rogers was not prosecuted for the other two murders. Was it a question of jurisdiction? Does that stop prosecutors from going after murderers? Hopefully he will die in prison, but it would’ve been nice for the survivors of the other two murders to see some justice.

Fred was cute and I regionally thought he was gay too.

Originally*

The guy they found who hung out with both Mulcahy and the killer gave me the chills. Imagine walking around with that fact about you in your head.

[quote]I don't understand why Rogers didn't just wrap his victims whole in a tarp and dump them off a lonely pier into the ocean or a big lake.

He was a small man and didn't have the strength to move a body.

Also, chopping up the body would make it harder to identify (or so he thought)

R349, I think it was a combination of jurisdiction and the fact that they didn't have physical evidence for one of the murders

Not sure where some of you are getting that Rogers was small. He was very skinny when young but over 6' tall, even then. I remember his height listed on some arrest form. Seeing what he looked like in that footage of him as a college student covering his face from the cameras, he didn't look particularly "small" at all.

The Last Call Killer loved The Golden Girls

Does anyone here remember the serial killer known as The Doodler??

R358, yes, authorities in SF have re-opened the case

[quote]Did Richard Rogers have sex with other men? The series never says.

Yes, he did. And you're right, the series never says. I know someone who dated him a few times. It would be interesting to know why Rogers had successful sex with some guys, and then killed others. With Michael Sakara, I wondered if during their tryst, he flew into one of his rages, and that's what set Rogers off and domed Michael.

Except for the very first murder in Maine, I did not get the impression that rage was the cause of the others. How pre-planned each one was, I'm not sure. I suppose those are details the doc could have gone into further if they wanted to focus more on the killer instead of the victims.

If anyone here has read the book, can you comment on whether or not you learn more about Rogers, his state of mind, his methods, etc.? I'm the poster who said upthread that I'd only read the first 1/3 of the book before quitting because it was too dry, but I suppose the end of the book might have dealt even more with details about Rogers than the doc chose.

Rogers had dead eyes.

The cop said the suspected Rogers hunted all over American on his travels. Well? Anyone follow this up?

GASP!

I love Mullcahy's daughter's snark when she said the first time she saw him at court she was underwhelmed by the frumpy looking guy.

r365, I found her comment about Rogers terribly sad, that such a dumpy frump could have seduced her handsome beloved dad.

From wikipedia re: his poor victim Peter Anderson...

He was also castrated postmortem, and his penis had been placed in his mouth.

Also interesting re: the NJ case - funny how the prosecutor didn't mention this plea offer in which he would have had possibility of parole after 15 years... pretty terrifying that could have been a possibility considering they never charged the other 2 murders.

Rogers' trial began on October 26, 2005. Rogers was offered a plea deal during jury selection, which stated that if he pleaded guilty to manslaughter in both cases, he would receive two 32-year-sentences with the possibility of parole after fifteen years. Additionally, if he pleaded guilty to third degree murder in the death of Peter Anderson, he would receive a total of ten to twenty years in prison. Rogers said he would take it into consideration, but declined the deal.

"manslaughter" - how ironic. And absolutely dismal this was offered to a person who killed and dismembered people on purpose.

Maybe, but they thought the jury would have trouble convicting because of the jurisdiction issues. Doing a lighter sentence than what you deserve is better than doing no time at all because a jury voted to acquit. That's what happened when he killed the first guy.

Gay USA

Confession: I started the first Golden Girls Inconstancies thread a mere four weeks before my arrest.

Did he dial the phone with a pencil?

R366 He could have done so much better but maybe he was drunk.

We know that Jeffrey Dahmer didn't murder *everyone he had sex with. Why would this Rogers person be different.

[quote] that said, it would have been interesting to have learned a little more about Rogers beyond what his college friend shared

I think this was a weakness of the book too, and I remember it mentioned in a few reviews. I think in the efforts to not glorify him and to focus on the victims, they just didn't **quite** get the balance right.

Then again, anything said about Rogers was and is going to be secondhand at best. The most useful info - about his childhood, about whatever formative events made him so self loathing - were probably not going to be uncovered in any case if his parents and/or family are gone.

R361 It's been a while since I read it and it felt like the series stuck to what the book said about Rogers. There was a real, honorable focus on the victims - and I also think after some of the backlash on how lurid some of the coverage of Dahmer/Bundy et al had been, there was restraint. But as I said above, there's a bit that was missing in terms of trying to understand his motivation.

That NJ prosecuting attorney must have been very young when she handled this case. It was 18 years ago so she must be mid 40s, but she looks a lot younger than that. I liked her.

I also knew Lisa Hall the bartender in Ep 3.... she went with a college friend circa 1977... I remember they shelled out $ for tickets to see Liza Minelli in The Act....and yes, she was a big fan of Liza. A very kind girl.

Lisa is on Facebook....apparently in Sarasota FL employed as a postal employee.

......

The leathery skin, the reptilian eyes on the lookout for prey, the gaping orifice. . . Must have been like meeting up with one of the regulars from her Five Oaks days.

[quote]Doing a lighter sentence than what you deserve is better than doing no time at all because a jury voted to acquit.

True. But it's not justice.

So, in both the book and the series we're never told what Rogers' murder weapon of choice was?

Nice to see that the one time friend/boyfriend/secret fuck buddy of Peter Anderson is doing well in Palm Springs. His younger husband is very cute.

If Rogers had taken that deal and gotten out with parole in 15 years, it would have been a real safety issue in addition to an injustice. I doubt he would have stopped killing - those 2 acquittals sure didn't stop him. He probably would have spent the time in the jail trying to come up with better hunting methods.

Episode 4 was such a let down

It was not. Sorry your simple mind needed someone to be set on fire or some sort of Moldavian Massacre to get your rocks off. Real life isn't like that.

[quote] Episode 4 was such a let down

How so?

[quote]The Last Call Killer loved The Golden Girls

Oh my god…maybe the killer was inspired by the Rusty Anchor storyline!

Yeah, I had him a couple times, back in the day. So what?

I thought the ending episode was really well done. The way they described how the jury foreperson broke down and then Mulcahey's daughter broke down... gut wrenching.

I felt so bad for the family of Fred Spencer, and his former GF... they seemed so upset that the acquittal of Rogers for Spencer's murder, in essence released Rogers' full blown mania onto society and many more murders. I wonder how many tarps or plastic bags were/are out there, unfound, with body parts maybe still in them? They said he traveled a lot.

It's definitely possible that there were other victims.

I'm certain there were other victims. The man is a psychopath.

One of the most chilling accounts was in the last episode where Douglas Gibson, the well known last person to see Mulcahey at the Townhouse.... recounting how in 1995 he began a casual relationship with Rogers at another bar, buying each other drinks for 5 years or so... and later when Rogers photo was in the papers after the arrest.......wondering if Rogers was vicariously enjoying the memory of the murder when they would socialize together....

a highlight is when the detective, laughing and not comprehending who would home video tape and watch the Golden Girls, ..... and the interviewer responding off camera....."I've seen all of them".

R215, there actually was a snippet of Sue Simmons’ voice reporting on one of the murders.

I don’t think it’s been clarified upthread that Marrero didn’t actually go in The Townhouse (there was a dress code) but he hung outside nearby. There apparently were hustlers from the East 50s and elsewhere who hung out near The Townhouse in the hope they’d benefit from patrons exiting the establishment.

That elderly guy in Palm Springs was lovely. What acsweetheart. I’m glad he found happiness with somebody else.

I also loved the elderly guy in Palm Springs. He seemed like such a wonderful person, glad he's happy and content.

I have watched the first two episodes getting ready for #3. I'm glad they're showing how life was for us in the 80's and 90's. How terrible the cops were. How terrible the closet was.

So basically this guy killed two people and was found not guilty because he used the Gay fear defense?His roommate came on to him and tried to force him to do Gay sex and he "snapped." Not only was he found not guilty but had his record expunged. Anyway it was fascinating how they tracked him down. I'd safely bet there are more bodies out there. That's kind of where they left it.

They didn't do a good enough job building suspense or conveying frustrations. The pacing was off. It was a good story but not told well.

This was simply unwatachable. Horribly edited. The director should be slapped.