U.S. First Ladies and visits with Popes. Who wore the black dress and veil well and who didn't?

Melania and the other Trump "first lady" with Pope Francis.

OP, is that a *Who wore it better?* photo?

Hillary Clinton looks like a peasant in her black outfit and veil with Pope John Paul II.

Look at Melania's hands...

Laura Bush with Pope John Paul II. She looks quite lovely, but the Pope was clearly annoyed with her stealing his thunder sitting next to me. He probably wanted to smack her.

I meant to type "next to him" not "next to me".

I'm so glad for this thread. Since I will be the first woman president, I will take on the black dress and veil. I'm already contacting my stylist. Or, maybe my husband should at least wear a veil when we meet the Pope? Just kidding. My husband is a good straight man.

Mrs Obama got it right.

Michelle Obama with Pope Benedict XVI. Looks a bit Amish in the dress style.

Lady Bird Johnson couldn't be bothered to wear a veil in the presence of Pope Paul VI. Lucie Johnson wore a veil.

She's wearing a hat, r10, she has sufficient.

Why are they supposed to wear head coverings?

R3 - you’re so right!

As much as I love Hillary, she looks like she’s ready for Dancing Queen in a production of Mamma Mia.

Rosalynn and Amy Carter fashion disasters at 1980 meeting with Pope John Paul II.

R12 - I believe, although not totally sure, that covering one’s head is a symbol of humility.

R14 — poor Amy Carter! Looks like she had an afternoon of cow milking ahead of her.

Nancy Reagan purposely wore that necklace to get more attention. I wonder if Pope John Paul II burned his clothes after the meeting with the Reagans since they were pals with psychic Jeanne Dixon.

Jill Biden's weird floral pattern-type blazer with a weird veil. Looks miserable.

[quote] Why are they supposed to wear head coverings?

So they don't turn the Holy Father on by baring their slutty hair. He's only human, you know.

Pat Nixon looks happily ready to have Wayland Flowers stick his hand up her ass.

Wow Laura Bush actually looks great.

Pat Nixon looks very cartoonish in that picture.

Melania and Ivanka look ready for their Black Mass First Communion.

Gonna give this to Jackie. She got Pope John XXIII for her accessory.

It is diplomatic protocol AND a courtesy to a religious leader. If you’re lucky to be one of the select Catholic queens of Europe, you get to wear white!

Try again.

Still doesn’t work, R25.

Women in white

Betty Ford pushed off to the side. I wonder if any bottles of communion wine went missing.

Sorry—wiki acting up

Very timely thread for me. I'll be contacting some designers to start work on Casey's veil and dress for our meeting with the Pope.

Also, to Nikki Haley stay out of this thread. It will be and my wife having a Papal visit.

Ivanka upstaged Melanie at R1 but is Ivanka's veil strictly correct? Is it too transparent? Is wearing a necklace following the rules?

Barbara Bush was another fashion disaster in her pope visit outfit.

Laura Bush with Pope Benedict XVI.

Bar's veil was too small and too transparent. This is an outrage.

R34 so glamorous!

The Bidens meeting Pope John Paul in the '80s. Very awkward 80s picture.

Very odd that queens and First Ladies are expected to dress like widows when visiting the pope. The dress code needs updating.

I guess jewelry is fine. Liz was showing off the bling.

Sophie Trudeau looks like she's wearing a 1980s funeral dress.

R33 - I think Barbara Bush looks nice — probably appropriate for the time.

[quote]Bar's veil was too small and too transparent. This is an outrage.

It's a...doily, r35.

Mother Pence doesn't wear the black veil and dress well.

Mother Pence sewed her own veil. From a leftover mosquito net.

R40, Sophie Trudeau has had many fashion disasters. I think she looks good in that photo.

Mike Pence is probably delusional enough to be believe he'll be POTUS and he has probably asked that Mother's black dress and veil be put away in storage for safekeeping along with boxes of documents.

Hate to say it but Hillary does look peasant-ish, wrong headwear.

Poor Amy looked totally wrong.

That veil on the grifting, thieving Ivanka is so inappropriate.

Barbara was wearing a doily on her fat head.

Some ladies were wearing long dresses and some looked like they were not.

R41, Barbara Bush looks good but I think she's going against the spirit of the dress code with the small, barely noticeable veil. I wonder if women who aren't Catholic are granted more leeway. Too bad we don't have a detailed explanation of the dress code.

R48 read the women in white up thread-it may help, a bit.

Yes, R49, but the article doesn't go into detail about the size of the veil, how transparent it can be, the length of the dress (eg. just below the knees or longer).

I didn't realise the dress code isn't compulsory. I guess the pope is just happy when the female guests aren't dressed in a trashy way.

I put this thread on stand-by, on reserve for a Summer afternoon downtime, knowing you bitches would bring it.

You snarky beehive, indeed.

r16, Good thing laughing isn't fatal, cuz I'd now be dead.

Town and Country has nice article and slideshow with some close up pics. The close up of Melania shows how hideous the veil and dress were.

Closer pic of Hillary. The dress looked fine. But, the head covering tied off with a knot looked awful.

[quote] Wow Laura Bush actually looks great.

She's a pretty woman and whoever styled her deserves an award.

Oh great. You can count on Angie to wear low cut. Tramp!

True, Melania's veil and hairstyle are especially unflattering.

[quote] Very odd that queens and First Ladies are expected to dress like widows when visiting the pope. The dress code needs updating.

Does this mean I'll have to dress like a widower for my Papal visit?

Amy Carter looks like a Dutch farm girl in R14.

I wonder if she was wearing clogs to go with that outfit.

I have to admit Cuntcy Reagan's veil in this pic looks lovely compared to the atrocity Bar Bush wore on her fat head.

Another pic of Amy and Rosalynn Carter with the Pope. Amy's outfit in this one is worse than the one at R14. But, Rosalynn looks lovely here.

[quote]Amy's outfit in this one is worse than the one at [R14]

It looks very au courant for the '70s, r59.

God, R 52, that picture of Princess Charlene of "M" is just Heartbreaking and that contemptuous lot is just lucky they haven't driven that poor woman into suicide yet. ( If that isn't their plan who knows?) Albert is SUCH a self-serving, piece-of-shit, DOUCHE of a Man let alone Monarch, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he wanted to somehow or another dispose of her to replace with another. But I think that then would be the final straw, even for the proud citizens of Monaco and the rest of the World- none would be able to stomach the very public and ugly display of protracted torment that the Grimaldi's have unnecessarily exacted against Charlene.

You just know Ethel Kennedy was pretending to be FLOTUS during this meeting with Pope John XXIII. I wonder if any nose picking went down that day.

Best dressed were Laura Bush and Michelle Obama. Laura probably learned from her cunt mother-in-law's blunders and made sure not to follow down that path.

The worst ones were Whorelania, Ivanka, Babs Bush, and Pat Nixon.

Amy is on point for a late 70s preteen. She got to meet the Pope, too!

It's a good thing Bernie Sanders was never elected president. We would have to have seen Jane Sanders in a black dress and veil. It would have much worse than Bar Bush or Hillary Clinton.

It appears VP Kamala hasn't met the Pope. I wonder if she'll have to wear the black veil and dress. I have an image in my head of her terrifying Pope Francis with her cackling.

Fuck off bigot.

R10, I think this photo is not a the Vatican but in New York when Pope Paul VI came to address the United Nations and say Mass at Yankee Stadium in 1964.

[quote] Why are they supposed to wear head coverings?

All three Abrahamic religions have mandated (and the more fundamentalist strains of Judaism and Islam still do) that women’s hair should be covered. In Catholicism, as little as two or three generations ago no woman would go to mass without at least a kerchief or hat on her head, and nun’s habits derive from the same diktat. In fact, nun’s habits and burqas actually have a lot in common.

R35 and R42, what Barbara Bush is wearing is called a chapel cap and it could be worn by Catholic women in the past in curch in place of a mantilla or hat.

With that doily on her head, Bar was proclaiming that she was a woman of loose morals.

[quote]This was attested by multiple Church Fathers throughout the first centuries of Christianity who taught that because the hair of a woman has sexual potency, it should only be for her husband to see and covered the rest of the time.

Oh my sides. This is good stuff.

Black women do it best.

Barbara Bush’s salad plate size chapel veil was very typical of what American Catholic women would wear to mass up until the mid-60s when the custom of women covering their heads in church was made optional.

Liz dressed like a trollop when she visits Pope Francis.

Just kidding. They were both guests at a lunch in Rome hosted by the Italian president, so I guess the dress code rules don't apply.

I have never in my life seen a more miserable human being than the Princess of Monaco.

Good Jesus, they should just let her go wherever the fuck she wants too. Get divorced, anything to let her have any sort of life.

I also know that she signed on willingly so anything that happens to her or how she has to live is her doing, even partially.

I love how Pope Francis is intentionally scowling in the Trump picture. You can tell he absolutely despises them.

I'm torn here. I typically have no problem with protocol, but it annoys me that only women have to cover their heads.

Jill Biden looks ridiculous, considering that the veil is supposed to cover a woman's hair.

Babs Bush's "covering" also looks ridiculous, like a black dream catcher. She has a large head and large *white* hairdo to begin with. So that little black doily on top is very prominent.

Not surprising that the royals from around the world (vs. politicians) are better at following these kinds of protocols.

Ivanka: why was she always everywhere?

Angelina Jolie: where is her black veil? Was she trying to make a statement?

Laura Bush: looked good.

Hillary: love ya, but you looked terrible.

Jill looked fine. Her style of mantilla was in line with what most Catholic moms wore to mass in the 60s, when it was still considered obligatory.

Katy Perry meets the Pope. Looks good! Hair is covered. She's got a little veil. Eye makeup looks a little heavy, but that's how she always does her makeup: caked on.

Queen Rania of Jordan meets Pope.

Princess Diana meets Pope.

[quote]Angelina Jolie: where is her black veil? Was she trying to make a statement?

I guess Angie is deathly afraid of looking matronly so she flaunts the rules. She had to wear a low cut suit that shows her ribs.

Maybe Melanie would have looked better with her hair in an up do.

Assorted celebrities meeting Pope. Not sure who the douchebag in the preview photo is, but there are more recognizable celebrities in the People article.

I wonder why Queen Rania wore a white scarf. Maybe she thought all black would look too somber or maybe there's a cultural reason.

Not sure, R86, but she's so beautiful and always well-dressed. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt on that.

Melania Trump actually looks modest in her head covering: it actually does cover her hair. I think she tried. However, it wasn't flattering.

Oh brother. Sting in some old T shirt in the link at R85. I wish he'd make an effort.

Too bad Patti Smith didn't wear a proper veil to cover up that horrible hair.

Yeah, Patti Smith looked awful.

Patti Smith looked bad. Her teeth were even worse than her hair. Years of drugs I guess.

Queen Letizia meeting Pope: wearing white, no head covering.

That first picture was not a state visit…she wasn’t queen. Francis doesn’t care about the veil, as he loosened the protocol. She’s wearing a veil in the second pic, where she was queen.

Nancy Pelosi with the Pope. No head covering.

Sorry for the preview photo (Melania Trump). But here's a nice assortment of royalty and political figures meeting the Popes throughout the years, including Princess Grace of Monaco & Camilla. Babs Bush, again, in that doily.

Nancy is in church with him, it isn’t an official visit. Francisco is cool with it.

Camilla's veil doesn't look good.

Letizia looks fabulous in white. I guess it helps that she's model thin.

Camilla has the same rough looking skin issue that Jill Biden has.

Seeing the photo at R97 also makes me so tired of the same hairstyle Camilla has been sporting for the past 40 years.

What a bullshit tradition, especially if you aren't a catholic.

It's like demanding women wear a burkha to meet Arabic world leaders - what's the difference. Hint: We ALL know what the difference is for people kowtowing to the pope.

No it’s not like where a burka

It is like covering your hair, or taking off your shoes, in a mosque. Its wearin a yarmulke in synagogue. It’s respect, that is all.

It's ridiculous, and I believe Pope Francis has discouraged it.

Now for the snark...

Let's spot the gay bishop in the photo of Jackie Kennedy and John XXIII

Look at the puss n Francis with those grifters

Hillary Clinton looks like she's on her way to milk a cow.

Where did Ivanka get that headdress? The Vermont Country Store? It looks like one of those domes you put atop the macaroni salad at the church picnic, so the flies don't get at it.

[quote]Its wearin a yarmulke in synagogue. It’s respect, that is all.

That's why Babs Bush looks fine to me. Reminds me of the round lace thing women pin to their hair for Jewish funerals. You don't have to do a hijab, just cover the keppe as respect

Ivanka's veil looks a whole lot better than Melania's, BonniePrinceCharlie.

[quote] It's ridiculous, and I believe Pope Francis has discouraged it.

I don't care if he discourages it. When my wife and I visit him at the Vatican, she'll be wearing a lovely dress and head covering.

Too bad Jared in the photo at R1 can't be bothered to button his jacket and the bottom of his tie is his showing.

President Cheeto looks fabulous in R1 with the fake tan and the pee-yellow dyed hair.

At some point, it will seem ridiculous that women had to dress a certain way to meet the Pope. It’s been decades of digging up dirt on the Catholic church abuse cover-ups. The Popes seem like they are oblivious.

.... and the bottom of his tie is showing.

Perhaps, R104, but Melania's bottomed and facelifted face ruins the whole look.

What these first ladies and crowned heads lack is an eye-patched Roman aristocrat in a ruff to escort them to their audience with His Holiness:

[QUOTE]I love how Pope Francis is intentionally scowling in the Trump picture. You can tell he absolutely despises them.

R77 - The Pope also heavily shaded Trump for the press to hear. He basically called him fat. He asked Melabia "What have you been feeding him, ____?" (name of some fattening Slovenian dish)

I love that Pope Francis was bitchy with the Trumps.

No, you have to have a dress code, R108, or Pam Anderson will show up like this.

[quote] Too bad Jared in the photo at [R1] can't be bothered to button his jacket

Much as I hate Jared and the whole Trumpian klan, r106, you *never* do up all your buttons on a jacket. At least one has to be left undone, and it looks like his jacket only has two buttons.

Where’s our resident expert on Catholicism?

He’s stuck in the Bundt cake thread, but I’m sure he’ll make an appearance from the 02116.

You button just one button on either a two or three button suit jacket.

Well, R114, having one button buttoned and having the tip of your tie showing looks sloppy.

It's called a mantilla, you heathens. Most Catholic women kept one folded up in a little fake silk pouch in the purse. You couldn't go into church without it. I thought you have to be a papist to get the vibe right but Mother Pence is working it the right way.

I found the white mantilla from my aunt's Communion in our house when I was a child. I thought it made my dolls look very glamorous.

Laura Bush pulls it off, Jill is okay.

Michelle looks like a nun.

Ivanka is wearing a black version of the veil that burlesque dancers used to wear when they did the "wedding night" number. She still manages to look whorish.

Nancy Reagan looks like she going to a costume party.

Looking at R3 gives you a clue as to why Hillary loves those pantsuits.

Unfortunately there's no longer an Empress of Brazil, because when there was she had the rare [italic]privilège du fruits,[/italic] which allowed her to meet the Holy Father wearing a basket of fruit atop her head.

You bitches forget about me.

Must be a ghost, because that’s not Mamie.

R113 - is that Kid Rock in the pic with Pam Anderson?

Yes, R125. He's kind of scrawny. He needs to work out and get bigger pecs. It's an old photo.

I didn't think so, R124. She looks a lot younger than Ike.

You think that’s Mamie? No. Reread my post.

I'm agreeing with you that that lady in R123's photo isn't Mamie, R128. She looks too young and too attractive to be Mamie.

R4 Mrs Obama had the same nails. It's an American thing.

Michelle is too short-waisted for her outfit. She shouldn't have the belt so high.

R131 Yeah, I thought the belt thing looked weird.

[QUOTE]Melabia

The "n" is next to the "b" on the keyboard so not a Freudian slip, right?

[quote]I wonder if women who aren't Catholic are granted more leeway

Which of these First Ladies were actually Catholic? Just Jackie Kennedy and Jill Biden, right? Any others?

Only those two, r134. No other US presidents than JFK and Biden were Catholic. No Protestant president was married to a Catholic wife.

R134 - I think you’re right. JFK was first Catholic elected to the presidency (many thought that could never happen in America) and Joe Biden is the second, I believe.

Jill Biden is not Catholic. She chooses to accompany her husband to Mass as a devout perdón of a different faith. In other words, she has never made a public statement of any conversion to Catholicism.

—person

You ‘believe,’ you think Biden might only be the 2nd Catholic president? Everyone else knows for sure … Jesus H Christ

R135 is full of shit. Melania Knauss was baptized and confirmed as a Roman Catholic.

Melania was baptized and confirmed as an Eastern Bloc hooker.

^ but still Catholic 🫥

R10, Lucie converted to Catholicism at 18 and her veil was a sign of her Catholicism.

"Mo' respect."

It looks like this good Catholic man will be POTUS. I'm already contacting the Vatican to make plans for my visit along with my lovely wife.

Of all these pics, Princess Diana looked the best. Beautiful.

*

The photo's of the Trumps and Biden's would look perfect in our house!

R5 He was annoyed because she asked him—yet again—if she was going to hell for killing that guy with her car.

[quote] Michelle looks like a nun.

Her dress reminded me a bit of what Sister Mary Robert wore in the Sister Act movies.

[quote] Ivanka: why was she always everywhere?

She was Daddy's favorite and probably went to various events to shove it in Don Jr and Eric's faces.

I would expect that for famous visitors neither the Pope nor the papal offices actually require the head coverings; it's just people finding out for themselves what the etiquette is ahead of time and deciding to follow it (or in the case of Angelina Jolie, not doing so). I doubt the Pope is going to banish either Jolie or Queen Rania from his presence for wearing the wrong thing.

It's like when people used to meet Queen Elizabeth II--there were protocols they were supposed to follow (such as not turning their backs on the queen, or touching her, or taking the lead in conversation with her), and her staff would cringe if the visitors did it wrong; but the Queen herself would actually never correct people nor would she let her staff correct people (if she knew about it). She was far too polite.

The point of true etiquette is not to enforce protocols on other people. Princess Margaret, of course, would correct people loudly and humiliatingly all the time when they didn't follow "the rules": but everyone agreed she was a rude cunt.

[quote]U.S. First Ladies and visits with Popes. Who wore the black dress and veil well and who didn't?

To be fair, Cardinal Spellman wore it the best.

R151, I hear what you're saying, but it was a lot easier for QE and Princess Anne to be magnanimous. They grew up on pedestals and, for the most part, were treated with utmost respect and deference. They're not gonna bother trying to correct some yahoo who doesn't know the protocol.

Looking at this thread in case I need to design something for my dad.

Game over, bitches!

Not on your life, R155:

Le privilège du blanc and Mathilde:

Woman can't even bother to comb her hair, r155.

I think Michelle Obama looks great. It’s so weird and archaic, why screw around with different types of black lace? Just go whole hog. And the rest of her outfit looks like something she would normally wear, not a costume.

Ivanka looks like she is ready for her first communion in the church of Satan. She isn’t covering anything up, It’s just attention-seeking, which seems extra inappropriate for a Jewish woman. She should have just skipped the head covering.

Jill Biden looks OK if you don’t look too closely, but I think the animal print is inappropriate.

Hilary - wtf?

I’m surprised more woman don’t balk at these rules. Seems like a subdued, modest outfit, possibly with a hat, should be respectful enough. Unless you are a practicing Catholic, black with a veil seems like a lot to ask.

I don't really think of Ivanka as Jewish. She had to convert in order to seal the deal with Jared and to transition from living off of daddy to living off of Jared.

I saw a group interview of the three (Ivanka, don jr and eric) where Eric (?) said Ivanka was the favorite. Really sad. I hate favoritism in families and in the workplace. It's really a morale-buster.

Queen Re of Chicago & le privilège du blanc.