Do you think Biden withdrawing the U.S. from Afghanistan was a success...

It was a success, and he should be commended for doing what Obama didn't have the guts to do.

It was going to be difficult and messy no matter how carefully it was done. I don't think Joe gets enough credit for it.

It was fine. It's just unfortunate that the retaliation for that suitcase bomb involved mainly killed civilians, of which many kids. That -- and all the people falling off the evacuation planes -- were the only real blunders. He did the best he could with the absolute shit Trump (purposefully) left him saddled with.

Other than that how did you enjoy the play Mrs Lincoln ?

Success are you kidding If this was China somebody would have been shot, As Usual the mismanagement of the withdrawal was a complete disaster that cost us all dearly. It looked similar to the Vietnam withdrawal to me. No matter to the PTB as the war machine unquestioningly receives billions and billions. Sucking the wealth from our world it is not even questioned that their budget goes up while the society is leeched of the wealth it needs. Causing absolute disaster after disaster overseas. Why does nobody even talk about this stuff anymore. We have given up. The boomers are wine tasting the youth are preoccupied with twitter. Ukraine careens towards WW3.It was a successful disaster, more to come, yes.

That was an embarrassing mess. Yes, get out but not that way.

OP = Log cabin cuntface.

It was a success, and he should be commended for doing what Obama or Republican presidents Bush and Dump didn't have the guts to do. And this is after Bush got the US in to the Afghanistan mess to begin with.

Fixed that for you, R1.

I voted for him in 2020 and would vote for him again, but you’d have to be a sheer partisan idiot to say that withdrawal was a “success” on any level. This will be, by far, his biggest blunder / failure.

r7. Datalounge's top level of sophisticated repartee

Absolutely this was a success on Biden's part, if for the very solid reason that the situation was absolutely untenable and Afghanistan was already corrupt and expecting the US to provide everything for them, including their safety. Do people--especially Repugs--think the answer was for the US to be the caregiver and gatekeeper of Afghanistan forever? Or are we getting out of that failing business of gatekeeping?

Good on Biden for doing what no other president, Democrat or Repug, had the guts to do.

Absolutely not! The second 20 years would have been the charm.

The almost knee-jerk defense of Biden here reminds me of how deplorables / magats will defend Dump no matter the objective evidence to the contrary thrown in their face.

R13, what would you have had us do? Stay in Afghanistan indefinitely--10 more years? Twenty? Do tell, brilliant strategic mind.

Very easy for R13 to make some banal comment and offer nothing by the way of an analysis of what else sgould have been done.

Trump ran on ending the war and promised he end it immediately. He negotiated the date and freed the Taliban making Afghanistan far more dangerous. Of course it was a typical Trump lie. Biden got us out, ended the war under circumstances made far more dangerous by Trump.

R14, and there we go, demonstrating Magat-like thinking immediately by jumping to extremes - ie “staying in Afghanistan indefinitely.” I didn’t realize that was the only alternative to the withdrawal as had been executed, but good to know!

Ps- we’ve decided to stay in other parts of the world following conflict such as the DMZ basically “indefinitely”, so in and of itself that shouldn’t be a controversial proposition.

The compulsive, unrelenting need for someone like R13 to shit all over Democrats and Biden regardless of what they do is truly astounding.

It's almost as if R13 enjoys sucking Donald Trump's dick and licking Republican ass.

^ hey shit-tard, I’m a Biden voter and would vote for him again. Unlike you, however, I have no problem criticizing him where and as needed.

That's one-hundred perdent correct, R16.

So which is it, R17? Am I MAGAt (I'm not, of course) or some blindly loyal Biden supporter? You seem to not be able to choose between labeling people as MAGAts or Biden lackeys.

And you have offered nothing by way of how you, in your infinite wisdom, thought the Afghanistan mess should have been handled. And I thought Americans increasingly wanted the US out of being the police of the world?

Trump had the Taliban released. They immediately began their takeover, began ruling the various provinces, began preventing girls from going to school, ect, all with semi automatic weapons. We had no option at that point but to get the hell out. Biden ended the war, after TWENTY years of dumping resources into it. Trump screwed the pooch and Biden took action to end it. Thank you Biden.

"I’m a Biden voter."

I bet that's what you tell all the other trolls.

Exactly what R21 said. Biden made the hard decision after Dump fucked up everything, like he always did.

Exactly, after Trump unleashed the Taliban, our only option was to either double down and ramp up the fighting to stop them, or get the hell out. It was a Trumpian blunder.

[quote]It was a success, and he should be commended for doing what Obama or Republican presidents Bush and Dump didn't have the guts to do. And this is after Bush got the US in to the Afghanistan mess to begin with.

[quote]Fixed that for you, R1.

Well, yes of course Bush deserves most of the blame and Trump deserves a lot of the blame—but their failure and ineptitude was to be expected based on who they are and what they "believe."

Obama, on the other hand, like Biden, knew we needed to get out—but Biden is the one who stepped up and did it.

[quote] Biden is the one who stepped up and did it.

He certainly did

How so, R26? You offer absolutely nothing by way of evidence of a better course of action other than getting out. So, now you're being put on the spot: HOW should it have been handled, considering Trump unleashed the Taliban?

As for R25 saying, well, of course, we couldn't expect Dump or Bush (the one truly responsible) to do anything, because they were too stupid and incompetent to do anything, therefor they get a pass (how odd that logic is), but Obama had brains and should have...done what? Other than what Biden ultimately did?

I wish I heard actual substance from the naysayers here, beut of course they have no substance, because they offer no compelling answer as to how this should have been handled, when it should have been handled, etc.

I'd also like the receipt from R26 that's a real Obama quote. Just because a meme says so doesn't mean it's so.

[quote]Obama had brains and should have...done what? Other than what Biden ultimately did?

He should have done exactly what Biden did—and it would have been better because it would have been sooner and before Trump came into office.

Agreed, R29. But to essentially excuse the other two "presidents" who did more damage (one by starting the conflict, the other by exacerbating it) makes little sense. They are far more to blame by their actions than Obama by his inaction.

Still waiting for that receipt, R26.

And by the way, Dump was all about "America first." Afghanistan would have been an ideal place to make good on that. He didn't. He did the exact opposite, and he's held to far less accountability (as is Bush) than Biden and Obama are.

Unless you’re a certain someone, these decisions are not made in a vacuum. This was likely advised by generals, no?

[quote] This was likely advised by generals, no?

no

[quote]The almost knee-jerk defense of Biden here reminds me of how deplorables / magats will defend Dump no matter the objective evidence to the contrary thrown in their face.

Lol, of course it does, r13...

Thanks, r34. The irony is, many of those defending how this withdrawal took place are among those that clamored “trust the experts” (which I fully supported!) during the height of COVID public policy controversies. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.

Yes, r22, because obviously a right-wing / Republican troll would say things like how they’d vote for Biden in 2024, and demean Trump supporters in the process by calling them Magats and Deplorables. That makes SO MUCH sense!

“Biden ordered a complete withdrawal in April, setting a target date of Sept. 11. The Pentagon pushed back again, but Biden overruled it and moved up the withdrawal to the end of August.“

“It is true that former President Donald Trump’s Doha deal with the Taliban was incredibly flawed and that it limited President Joe Biden’s options. Many of us noted at the time that it was badly negotiated, giving the Taliban everything they wanted — a date for America to leave Afghanistan — while asking for very little in return besides counterterror promises. It excluded the Afghan government. While the deal’s architect, Zalmay Khalilzad, argued that its multiple pieces — one of which included the start of peace talks between the Taliban and the then-Afghan government — would work together, the text as it was written read like a timeline to surrender. It emboldened the Taliban and weakened the Afghan government. The public has never seen its classified appendices.

Yet it’s also not quite correct to suggest that the Trump administration alone is to blame for how the summer of 2021 unfolded or the harried nature of the last two weeks of August in Kabul. Biden and his team had agency in the decision to withdraw in 2021 and in the manner of the withdrawal. And the roots of the fall of the Afghan government and the army in 2021 went beyond the Doha deal — they were a deeper reflection of the ultimately unsuccessful 20-year American effort in Afghanistan. Any honest reckoning with the events of August 2021 is incomplete without acknowledging that.

The Biden administration undertook an Afghanistan review in the early months of 2021. There were a few choices it should have considered seriously, other than the two it says it had: to leave on the Doha deal’s timeline or to stay on, risking American lives; it chose the former. But it could have exercised more agency (as I argued at the time). It could have focused on pushing harder for an intra-Afghan peace deal (between the Afghan government and the Taliban), attempting a soft conditionality of the withdrawal on achieving such a peace deal; or it could have formally attempted a renegotiation of the Doha deal. In the end, the decision to withdraw according to the summer 2021 timeline displayed extraordinary fidelity to a Doha deal negotiated by a predecessor whose other policy actions Biden certainly has not taken as given. It was also a deal in which the other party, the Taliban, was not reliable, and to whose terms it had not stuck, even in terms of counterterrorism. And in the end, for all the administration’s critique of the Doha deal, it chose to retain Khalilzad, its chief negotiator, as its own Afghanistan point person through the withdrawal.

Where the administration does admit lessons learned, they are milquetoast and indirect. The report says that the administration now prioritizes quicker evacuations in contexts with “degrading security situation[s],” such as Ukraine and Ethiopia — but those are not directly comparable to Afghanistan, a country in which the United States had spent 20 years building its armed forces and empowering its government.”

The hanging off the planes is not something I would call a success.

This was bungled.

It wasn't bungled. It was ended. If he'd waited, there's no guarantee it wouldn't have been worse. Afghanistan had twenty years get it right and they just couldn't. America needed to end it and Biden got the job done, and speculation is worthless.

I come to the DL for posters like r39 — beautiful work.

I do agree with r39. Afghanistan was never ever near any type of cultural shift. There was no grassroots democratic movement, no matter what we tried. Afghanistan is run by drug overloads, and the US military was used to guard their poppy fields. That is the only significant industry there. So between a drug-based economy, no education, fundamentalism, and a hatred of all things Western, we were doomed from day one. The US government propped up a faux-government, and we saw after 20 years how well a faux-government operates.

Every argument for us being there centered on us “helping” them become a democracy. Instead, our help actually hurt them in numerous ways.

I don’t know enough about military strategy to call a bungled exit. But to be fair, I’ll just say I’m neutral and need more information.

Bottomline? Fuck yes, I’m voting for Biden again. It’s not even open for discussion. If you’re still struggling with your vote, then honey, go back to the first season and rewatch all of it! It’s Biden or Bullshit for us.

R43, thank you. But respectfully, you make a number of faulty assumptions about the state of Afghanistan prior to the Taliban reclaiming the government. Sure, the prior government never was able to get corruption and the drug trade under control.. but what country anywhere in that region of the world - anywhere in Central Asia, South Asia or the Middle East, for that matter - including some of our very allies on the border (cough - Pakistan!) have? The fact is that US presence, infrastructure, security and investment post-invasion after 9/11 practically transformed that country - it seemed nearly back on a path to what it had been, circa early 70s / prior to the Soviet invasion of 1980. And it was absolutely on a cultural shift. It became standard (again) for females to attend school / university. Western media was (again) a dominant source of entertainment, inspiring Afghans to even create their own versions of Western sitcoms / shows / series (one of the more famous examples being Afghan Star - basically their equivalent of American Idol - which is now banned under the Taliban).

“ Infant mortality rates fell by half. In 2005, fewer than 1 in 4 Afghans had access to electricity. By 2019, nearly all did. The second half of the war allowed Afghan women, in particular, opportunities entirely denied them under the fundamentalist Taliban, so that more than 1 in 3 teenage girls — their whole lives spent under the protection of Western forces — today can read and write.”

“In the wake of Kabul’s fall, though, a corrosive and deeply unfair narrative is emerging: to blame the Afghans for how it all ended. The Afghan security forces failed. The Afghan government failed. The Afghan people failed. “We gave them every chance to determine their own future,” President Biden said in his address Monday — as if the Afghans had somehow chosen the Taliban.

No — they didn’t choose the Taliban. They fought and died alongside us, helping us degrade al-Qaeda. Working with the Afghans and our allies, we gained time to build a counterterrorism presence around the world and a counterterrorism apparatus at home that has kept us safe. In the end, the Afghans couldn’t hold the country without our airpower and our support. It is not surprising that Afghan security forces lost the will to fight, when the Taliban warned that the United States was deserting them and that those who resisted would see their families killed.

No — they didn’t choose the Taliban. They seized the chance to create a modern society where girls could attend school, women could enter professions and human rights would be respected.

No — they didn’t choose the Taliban. They built a fledgling democracy with elected leaders who often failed but didn’t brutalize their people as so many regimes in the region do. It was a government that never managed to tame corruption and the drug trade. In this, Afghanistan had plenty of company across the globe.

Twenty years was not enough to complete a journey from the 7th-century rule of the Taliban and a 30-year civil war to a stable government. Twenty years may also not have been enough to consolidate our gains against terrorism and assure our own safety. We — and they — needed more time.

We have understood this before. Technically, our longest war is not Afghanistan: It is Korea. That war didn’t end in victory; it ended in a stalemate — an armistice. South Korea did not achieve democracy for decades. Seventy years later, we have more than 28,000 American troops there in an admission that even the sophisticated South Korean army cannot deter the North alone. Here’s what we achieved: a stable equilibrium on the Korean Peninsula, a valuable South Korean ally and a strong presence in the Indo-Pacific.

Afghanistan is not South Korea. But we might have achieved a reasonable outcome with a far smaller commitment. More time for the Afghans didn’t have to entail combat troops, just a core American presence for training, air support and intelligence.”

^ cont..

“More time for us might have retained American intelligence and counterterrorism assets on the ground to protect our allies and our homeland from the reemergence of a terrorist haven. More time might have preserved our sophisticated Bagram air base in the middle of a dangerous region that includes Pakistan and borders the most dangerous country in the Middle East — Iran.

More time would have served our strategic interests.

…

Now we have to live with the consequences of our haste.”

R46 Much of that is mostly wishful thinking. The type of world described requires commitment from the entire country's population and really can't be achieved by another country doing the heavy lifting. They say the US was spending twenty million dollars per day there, all wasted at this point.

The evacuation of Saigon resulted in 7,000 people airlifted to safety, with 120,000 left behind.

The evacuation of Kabul resulted in 230,000 people airlifted to safety, with approximately 5,000 left behind.

Not only was the Afghani evacuation a success, it was a MIRACLE.

R47. You type in complete generalities, the result of your own ignorance and “wishful thinking.” Please continue to bury your head in the sand, if that helps you sleep at night. Your ignorance, however, is not reality. Please refer to the many above examples completely disproving your assertion that all US spending thereto had been “all wasted.”

R48, “The evacuation of Saigon resulted in 7,000 people airlifted to safety, with 120,000 left behind.”

This has to be the biggest load of BS. I would LOVE to see a source for the 120K figure.

R48: “The United States has evacuated only about 3 percent of Afghans who worked for the American government and applied for special visas, leaving behind an estimated 78,000, according to a report released Tuesday.”

That 120K figure is also disingenuous when you consider the US’s extensive efforts immediately following the Fall of Saigon to evacuate 130K Viet refugees:

“More than 111,000 of the evacuated 130,000 Vietnamese refugees were transported to Guam, where they were housed in tent cities for a few weeks while being processed for resettlement. “

He fucked up the landing big time.

But he got us out of that black hole. Which needed to happen years and years ago.

A for effort and for completion. D for execution.

Biden supporter here, but this was a failure. IMO, they fucked this up simply because they were hellbent on accomplishing it by the 20th anniversary of 9/11. Had they done a more gradual reduction into 2022, no one would've even noticed the Americans exiting, especially after the Russia/Ukraine War started.

Biden was 100% right in getting the US out of the quagmire of Afghanistan. It was a mess but it had to happen. A gradual reduction with the Taliban fully in control, R54? How would that have worked?

If nothing else, the U.S. is saving a ton of money. Now make all U.S. Americans pay their fair share of taxes- and make the Millennials pay their loans back- and we should be fine.

r55 you acknowledge that it was a mess. My point is that it would have been less of a mess and not as much of a spectacle if it was done more gradually, instead of them just pulling out the rug from beneath everyone

We had no business going there to begin with…we failed as we did in Vietnam and as the Russians did before us.

George W Bush failed , not Biden. He has to sweep up the mess

I always said it was messy, R57--and necessary. And you're still not answering how a gradual withdrawal would have happened with the Taliban fully and completely in charge.

Kabul is not going to be like Saigon. You won't see our people being rescued by helicopter off the embassy roof!

He lives in his own little bubble.

It wasn't comparable to Vietnam, R60. Are you suggesting it was?

Geniuses like R60 blame Biden for getting us out of Afghanistan instead of Bush and Trump for getting us into it and exacerbating it.

R59, you display a complete ignorance of the timeline and sequence of events. The Taliban became “fully and completely in charge” only AFTER US troops practically vanquished in middle of night. Did you even bother reading anything upthread?

Geniuses like r62 completely disregard the fact that Biden had plenty of agency in this situation, and literally went against the Pentagon’s own directives. Geniuses like r62 probably also loudly applaud Biden when he exercises that agency and diverges from / fails to honor precedent or prior agreements on issues and causes that r62 supports.

Biden took action and ended it. Twenty years and twenty million dollars per day. It's a culture that didn't completely value our presence, and viewed our military suspiciously . We brought weapons, training, infrastructure, but after twenty years, they were unable to control their country. We tried and yes failed, and it's thankfully over.

R65, nonsense. See r44 and r45.

R65: On control: during the time that the United States was occupying Afghanistan, it had a significant amount of control. The U.S. military worked closely with the Afghan government to establish and maintain security, and American officials often exerted influence over political decisions and policies. However, the extent of this control varied depending on the situation and the specific actors involved. Ultimately, the Afghan government remained formally in charge, but its power was greatly constrained by the presence and influence of American forces and officials.

It isn't nonsense at all, R66. What R65 is completely true. It was a losing game to be there.

Glad to see that the poll results reflect the belief that Biden took the right course of action, imperfect as is was, though great strategic "minds" here like R63/R64 bang on otherwise.

Biden just followed through on Trump's promise.

R68, there are multiple posts here that refute that narrative. But continue “banging on” as if you were a Trumptard by ignoring all the facts that don’t support your uninformed view.

R70, as mentioned amply already, Biden did not need to follow through on anything Trump set into motion. And if he hadn’t, I’m sure you and the other blindly partisan hacks on here would’ve supported that as well.

R70 that's what so interesting to me. The MAGA crowd can't seem to admit that. Trump, for all his utter horribleness, was correct in wanting to get out of there. So was Biden. Biden fucked up the landing, but was absolutely right about the removal. And had Trump done it? He also would have been right.

See? It's not THAT hard to admit things when true.

Trump ran on doing it. He disparaged the war many times, pointed out how stupid it was that we were there, and said he was THE MAN OF ACTION who would end it. All Trump lies. He only made it worse, freed the Taliban, set the date, then did nothing. Biden showed us (and Trump) what action looks like, so of course the right is going to only find fault.

So trump promised to get us out. Like ever other 0romise he made, he never came through.

Trump was a coward who wouldn’t take the chance so he left it to Biden, so Joe would look bad.

R71, it hardly matters at this point if he had listened to his generals--we'd still be there. Eventually, the band aid has to be ripped off, and Biden did just that, no thanks to Trump, who had exacerbated the situation by freeing the Taliban, as I hope you would remember. Yet you don't mention Trump at all for any blame. Fool.

R75, you’re an absolute moron who’s not a military general or an expert on international or foreign policy for a reason. This was a much more complex situation than just “ripping off a bandaid”. (Btw can you help me understand why we still have >28K American troops in the Korean DMZ and why that bandaid hasn’t been fully “ripped off”?). While Trump is absolutely to blame for the way the Doha negotiation went down, Biden was not in any way forced to continue honoring that precedent. Additionally, even the agreements that had been reached btwn the US and the Afghan govt as a result of those negotiations had a number of condition precedents to full US withdrawal that arguably were definitely NOT met when the US pulled out literally overnight.

But thanks for playing.

r76 You're leaving out that it was a quagmire and the US had made very little progress. Afghan men would sign on to be in the military or law enforcement, get a paycheck, and not return. Months later they would reenlist, get another paycheck and disappear again. They weren't motivated. This had gone on for twenty years. The US had been reduced to being their security and law enforcement with very little progress towards. This was costing the US hundreds of billions per year. It should have been abandoned earlier.

R77 is right. It was a money pit and the Afghan people did not want the change we were offering so fuck it leave. They are not going to change terrorism in the region or Islamic jihad. All it did was risk more US lives.

“Afghan people did not want the change we were offering”

And where is your proof for this?

So much ignorant commentary here from morons that know literally nothing about this region of the world or its politics.

This really is the subject where Dems talk like Trumptards.

R77, “US had made very little progress.”

Please be very specific here in exactly how / in what manner the US “made very little progress” since it invaded post-9/11. Go ahead, we’ll wait.

r79 Perhaps you should read this.

^ and where exactly in that entire report? Perhaps you should learn how to actually provide proof of a claim you make. Moron.

If we've got it wrong r79, tell us where? After we left, the place fell in less than a week. They literally set down their arms and walked off.

R83, there are a myriad of reasons why the govt collapsed so quickly, but it is extremely simplistic (and convenient) to put this all on the Afghan generals. For one. As already mentioned upthread: “In the end, the Afghans couldn’t hold the country without our airpower and our support. It is not surprising that Afghan security forces lost the will to fight, when the Taliban warned that the United States was deserting them and that those who resisted would see their families killed.” On that latter point, the Taliban were issuing literal bounties on the family of military / army personnel. Second, there is tons of evidence to suggest Afghan generals on the ground weren’t adequately informed ahead of time of the United States' withdrawal. Even the Biden admin ADMITS they basically failed to more broadly share intelligence info earlier abt the deteriorating situation:

“The White House report acknowledged that not starting evacuations from Afghanistan earlier was a mistake, as well as not sharing intelligence more broadly about the deteriorating security situation on the ground and not doing enough planning for a worst case scenario in Afghanistan. The Biden administration says it learned lessons from those experiences that it applied in other conflict zones soon after.”

Why was the Taliban even released? I read there almost five thousand of the Taliban imprisoned, who thought it was a good idea to release them, if they were only going to take over? Sounds like it would have been better to keep them locked up, or better yet just blow them all up? I've read much about Afghanistan, but many points are left unclear. In a country that large, why wasn't the military able to handle them?

It was a failure of Neo-Conservatism and American imperialism. And a failure for Biden because he maintains the failed policy.

He's doing the same in Ukraine as the Republicans did in Afghanistan.

Thank god there are few American troops in Ukraine yet but that'll be next.

Stop trying to Americanize the world. It cannot be done.

Wait what? We don't have troops in Ukraine. Ukraine is being attacked by Putin. The goal in Afghanistan was to quell terrorist activity. What similarities are you talking about? Supplying weapons to Ukraine is nothing like Afghanistan.

What the hell does that mean r87?

[quote] Wait what? We don't have troops in Ukraine. Ukraine is being attacked by Putin. The goal in Afghanistan was to quell terrorist activity. What similarities are you talking about? Supplying weapons to Ukraine is nothing like Afghanistan.

r88 We have advisors and 100 billion dollars of weaponry in Ukraine.

You forget that the U.S. began meddling in Afghanistan to counter the Soviets. The Soviet Union was supporting a progressive Marxist government in Kabul and the U.S. supported the Taliban.

You do realize that the Biden family has been in Ukraine since 2013 and the U.S. sponsored a pro-American coup in Kyiv in 2014, right? The Ukraine war is quite similar to Afghanistan and we'll no doubt be kicked out of Ukraine eventually as well.

[quote] The Biden administration says it learned lessons from those experiences

That's some Putin propaganda right there r90. Glad you revealed yourself a pro Russian, Putin stooge.

No beet for you.

r92 Yeah, we who see through this imperialist scheme are commies!!!

You can refute a word I said so I'm obviously a Russian spy!!! 🤣

^ ^ ^

"You can't." I'm obviously Russian and my English isn't so good. 🤣

Successful from a short term US point of view

Absolutely catastrophic for Afghans

[quote] Do you think Biden withdrawing the U.S. from Afghanistan was a success...

The public saw the chaotic surrender as Joe's turning point

And the options, R96? Dump? Fuck outta here.

R90, COMPLETE rewrite of history. Take your pro-Soviet/Russian bullshit out of here. 1. The Soviet government was supporting a MARXIST-BACKED COUP, to pave the way for their OWN invasion, which occurred at the end of 1979. 2. The US supported the muhjadeen, not the Taliban.

^ adding to #1: the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in December 1979, in order to prop up a communist government (which they had been doing for nearly a decade behind the scenes) and to assert growing control over the country. Soviets feared losing influence in the region. Additionally, the USSR saw an opportunity to extend its power into Central Asia and to gain access to the oil resources that lay beyond Afghanistan.

Now, pray tell, how is this not an example of the same “imperialism” you Marxists constantly babble about and decry?

Exactly, let's talk about the Russians imperialists that slaughtered millions of Afghans, just like Putin is doing now to Ukraine. Blowing up schools and hospitals makes him and his country feel proud. Don't say another word until you talk about that.

r98 r99 r100

Sign your name next time like I do, coward. No one believes you're three people.

This Marxist regime which you trogs decry was getting the Muslim fanatics out of government, ensuring equality for women, combating child sex slavery, and challenging the power of the local imams. It was a bold progressive move. You're trying to tell us that was a bad thing? The Soviets back the good guys there. The U.S. invaded to return the Muslim fanatics to power.

And the Mujahadeen which the U.S. backed went on to become the Taliban.

And it was the American invaders pushed out by the Afghan people, not the Soviets.

Now we have a repeat in Ukraine with the U.S. supporting the Azov fascists they installed in the 2014 coup.

And I'm not a Marxist. I'd just say a Marxist government which grants equality to women and ends child sex slavery is preferable to these religious freaks the U.S. put in power - and have now come back to bite the Americans in he ass, as usual.

Trump knew he was going to lose (he was always behind in the polls) so he tried to set-up Biden with as many burdens as possible before he was FIRED.

Just cut with the Marxist nonsense. It's a term used by select group of yahoos and it's not doing your argument any favors. Just admit it, you blame the US for everything and you side with Putin. You think Russia is being disparaged. Admit it. This is how this message board works, I'm not hiding anything, but you're hiding the fact that you're a Putin sympathizer.

r103 Hahaha. I detest Putin. Anyone who challenges you sheep is labeled a Russian agent. Hilarious. Nah, I'm a queer activist and I live in Southern California. You can't refute my logic so you throw insults.

I wonder how you'd like to wear a burka.

You're not admitting Russia's murderous invasion of Afghanistan was just that. They were slaughtering them just like they are now slaughtering Ukrainians. Ukraine has applied to be a member of NATO, which your hero Putin hates. Putin and Russia are the only aggressors, not the US and not Ukraine. Putin's "special operation" that his own citizens will be thrown in jail for mentioning, is an brutal invasion of a sovereign country.

Don't care. He's the only thing standing between us and total ruination. Will support him vocally until that is no longer the case.

[quote] You're not admitting Russia's murderous invasion of Afghanistan was just that. They were slaughtering them just like they are now slaughtering Ukrainians. Ukraine has applied to be a member of NATO, which your hero Putin hates. Putin and Russia are the only aggressors, not the US and not Ukraine. Putin's "special operation" that his own citizens will be thrown in jail for mentioning, is an brutal invasion of a sovereign country.

r105 Again, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan to protect a progressive government which gave women equality. The U.S. invaded to put the Mujahadeen aka Taliban in power. Hilarious. So a Soviet invasion to support equality is murderous. And an American invasion to support the Muslim fanatics is not? The Americans killed no Afghans? Really?

Putin didn't want NATO missiles on his border. If the U.S. puppet Zelenskyyyyyy had withdrawn his application to NATO, there would never have been a Russian invasion.

Putin doesn't like missiles on the border (it's not his, by the way), because he's planning on invading. There is no justification for his murderous invasion and him have Ukrainians slaughtered. None. If you believe otherwise, you're either deluded or a Putin shill. You're wrong on everything. Peddle your pro Putin views on Pravda.

r108 Read some history. The U.S. threatened to invade Cuba to prevent the Soviets from setting up nukes off our border. Our abortive Bay of Pigs invasion had already failed. We did the exact same thing as Russia in 1962.

Ukraine had been part of Russia for a thousand years.

We must support our NATO allies. But that's where we draw the line. Expanding NATO to "Little Russia" (that's Ukraine in case you don't know) would be a constant provocation to World War III.

Russia doesn't put nukes on our border, and we don't put nukes on theirs. It seems like a reasonable compromise.

If you want to risk World War III to protect Ukraine's fascist Azov battalion, you're an idiot.

R101 / "PlatonicCaveman", the narrative you're peddling here is literal Russian propaganda – in fact, not so different from the propaganda that the Soviets began peddling in/about Afghanistan during the 70's, as they began slowly infiltrating the country’s institutions (academic, political and media), paving the way for the coup they sponsored in 1978 and their invasion of 1979.

"This Marxist regime which you trogs decry was getting the Muslim fanatics out of government, ensuring equality for women, combating child sex slavery, and challenging the power of the local imams. It was a bold progressive move. You're trying to tell us that was a bad thing? The Soviets back the good guys there. The U.S. invaded to return the Muslim fanatics to power."

This type of political “analysis” and insight – framing it as between the "good guys" v. the "bad guys" one – is that of a child. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it was much more complicated than this.

To take a step back: that Marxist regime you're fawning over was put into place in 1978 via a Soviet-backed *coup*. Now as to why the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979: that Marxist regime was facing an increasing and growing insurgency from within the country. So in order to prop up that undemocratically imposed communist government, and to maintain a strong foothold in the Central Asia area (as Afghanistan borders many now former Soviet satellites), the Soviets invaded in a pure power grab. Now, of course the justification THE SOVIETS offered was "Islamic fundamentalism". But you'd have to be pretty stupid (or just a shameless propagandist) to uncritically believe that (or willingly repeat it).

Now, why did that communist government face a growing insurgency? While it is true that in some parts of the country at the time, that the regime's stated policies of even faster modernization / liberalization was seen as a threat to those particularly in rural areas (where religion dominated values and overall life much more than say Kabul), the fact of the matter is that the regime was supported / sponsored by the USSR, and its policies were naturally seen by most Afghans as a form of Russian imperialism. Additionally, that government grew increasingly authoritarian and repressive, leading to widespread human rights abuses, including the routine torture and killing of political dissents (not so "progressive" huh?). The Marxist regime severely limited freedom of expression in multiple ways that were not in any way "progressive." There was strict censorship of the media; the government basically controlled what info was allowed to be disseminated, and suppressed or punished alternative viewpoints. On religion in particular: religious leaders and institutions were under surveillance by the government (see also, the backlash of those efforts via the rise of the mujahedeen). Their version of "land reform" was literally forced redistribution of land and property (though I guess that’s not surprising, given Marxism), then imposing strict regulations on how that land could be used – resulting in widespread resistance and backlash from the rural communities who rightfully felt their rights were violated. Many Afghans across the board also viewed the regime as simply inept and corrupt, failing to provide basic services and infrastructure, with the imposition of Soviet-style economics leading to severe inflation and decline in living standards.

We can debate all you'd like about more recent historical events (e.g., US invasion post-9/11 and its reception in the country since then), but don't for a second try to rewrite history and seriously suggest that (i) the Soviet invasion was in any way legitimate under then international law or just plain fucking ethically or (ii) Afghans generally were supportive of it (or the sham regime that the Soviets basically installed the year prior). Afghans generally resented the presence of Soviet troops in their country and the imposition of Soviet ideology, policies and practices.

And r101, on this bit: “ensuring equality for women"

While there is some truth that the Marxist regime implemented policies that, at least on their face, were aimed at improving women's rights (particularly in non-urban areas), it is important to maintain historical timeline and perspective, and where the country was already at prior to the Marxist regime imposed in 1978 / Soviet invasion of 1979. Prior to 1978, women in Afghanistan had already enjoyed a level of freedom comparable to women in many other countries. They gained suffrage in 1919 – just one year before women in the United States. In the 1950's, then King Zahir Shah implemented a ton of social reforms, including de-veiling a condition for public employment. Through the 1960s, women's rights were expanding and greater equality was emphasized in the Afghan constitution (codified in 1964). In the 1960/70s Afghanistan also had a relatively high literacy rate for both men and women, and women were able to study, work and participate in politics, many of whom were not wearing headscarves or burqas.

The fact of the matter is that Afghanistan was already considered quite advanced for a Central Asian, Middle Eastern or Muslim-majority country with respect to women's rights and equality by that time (very comparable to Iran prior to the Islamic Revolution), and almost all of that progress predates the Marxist regime or the Soviets.

“ Ukraine had been part of Russia for a thousand years.”

Ukraine is actually a sovereign nation.

We see the propaganda Putin is using on his own people. It's similar to the propaganda platonic caveman is spewing. Putin has no right to invade Ukraine. We can see what's happening, and we see want he's telling his own people. His propaganda trolls call Zelensky a transsexual cocaine user. While reading various Russian posts, I found it odd how many kept infering The West was full of transsexuals and gays, and they're all doing cocaine, and they're pedophiles. This is the propaganda Putin trolls repeat over and over, that Putin is a hero for defending the poor innocents and the evil, perverted west is advancing on them. It's Pravda all over again.

[quote] We see the propaganda Putin is using on his own people. It's similar to the propaganda platonic caveman is spewing. Putin has no right to invade Ukraine.

r113 If Russia had no legitimate reason to invade Ukraine, then the U.S. had no right to prevent the Soviet Union from setting up nukes in Cuba in 1962.

This is not about taking sides in a post-Soviet conflict. This is about a pro-American coup in 2014 and 100 billion dollars of American weaponry, on my tax dollars, going to fuel this war which has nothing to do with our national security as Americans.

I demand neutrality from my government. I don't give a rat's ass what Pravda says.

No Russian nukes in Cuba. No NATO nukes in Ukraine. That's a fair deal to avoid World War III over a corrupt little hellhole of a country run by wealthy oligarchs.

I see. You can spout all the Neo-Con Cold War revival propaganda you want, but the other side can't be heard. Russian spies!!!

Biden was given a shit sandwich by Pompeo and Trump and he evacuated the troops and as many supporters as he could this was a war zone. When we left Saigon it was far messier. And the flawed intelligence from Trump's people saying that the Taliban would not take over because the Afghans were strong enough to resist on their own was total bullshit. Not Biden's fault. At some point the Afghans have to push back and stand up for the kind of government they want. Not roll over for the Taliban extremists. And BTW we haven't totally left. We still have operatives in place.

^ what are you on about? Biden’s own military generals advised him against the planned withdrawal. Plenty of blame to pass around (including on Trump), but this complete absolving of Biden (whose admin literally admitted its own mistakes not that long ago — see r84 for example) is beyond ridiculous.

Putin's blunder of invading Ukraine is the reason the nukes are coming to his back door. This was his last time. The world has had it with that murderous criminal. He's tearing about Ukraine, but he's ruining his own country. Russia will never be trusted again, by any country, even China doesn't really trust him.

No one gives a shit but you, R116, and you're a Brit, anyway.

R9 WRONG. It got us out of Afghanistan after 20 years. I'd say that was a FUCKING success. It was just FAR from a seamless withdrawal.

Biden will NEVER get the credit he deserves.

I think Biden will be reassessed afer his presicdency and he will be seen as one of the most maligned and underappreciated for all the accomplishments and clean-ups he performed (like, oh, saving the country from fascism).

I think it was the right decision but it was poorly executed. However, it was a clusterfuck there already before the decision. Politics is complicated.

R118, uh I’m actually a born and raised American, with family from the country of Afghanistan, but thanks for playing, retard.

Okay, asshole R122, it's just your pretentious devotion to Britishisms that suggested otherwise. Oh, and fuck you, too.

[quote] but thanks for playing

R122, could you speak in even more cliches?

Interesting how the queen at r118 has zero rebuttal to literally any of the many substantive points made here that don’t support its positions. I guess that’s what happens when your attention span is only suited for Ru Paul Drag race and boozy brunch with your other bottom gurls.

R124, you’ve offered literally nothing of value to this discussion. You might want to sit this one out, child.

Oh Mary, R125, your substantive pointsare that Biden ignored his generals when deciding to pull out of Afghanistan. That's your big argument. AND NOBODY HERE CARES. This is why it's annoying you so much. That poll at OP reflects a landslide opinion here that the US should have gotten out of there, and getting out of there was a good thing, ultimately. Now do fuck off. I notice how churlish and name-calling you get. I suggest a thorough douching to wash that sand out of your vadge, cunt.

At least I don't say things like "thanks for playing," R126. Who's a child, exactly? You sure write juvenile.

R127, you’re more than welcome to see my exact posting history as to what exactly I’ve proffered here. And LOL the projection is cute. Accuses me of name calling but then tells me to fuck off multiple times, also says “no one cares” and says this is annoying me so much… only to continue posting with heated, triggered responses. You clearly care a lot, lol.

I’d tell you to get a dick but considering the way you type and your posting history I’m not so sure that’ll be easy for you. Thoughts and prayers. 😘

I told you to fuck off once, R129. And it was clearly deserved as evidenced by your most recent response. You're a silly queen with intellectual pretensions, and you succeed on only one of those counts.

R130, you’re so mad. Lol.

R127 has STATED their boundaries.

Zzzzzzzzzzz, R131/R132 (same silly queen).

^ wait, I thought nobody cares?!

R134--at present: the poll shows Succeed is at 65.7% vs Fail at 343%.

Nobody cares.

Every time the withdrawal is mentioned in the media, they have to tack-on 'chaotic' or 'catastrophe' Well wtf did you expect, the Von Trapp Family?

Fail: 34.3%

Succeed: 65.7%

“ That poll at OP reflects a landslide opinion here that the US should have gotten out of there, and getting out of there was a good thing, ultimately.”

And this is why you should keep your day job at the GAP and stop offering commentary on shit you either don’t know enough about or otherwise have the brain capacity to analyze / discuss logically:

1. This is a message board with a very targeted audience (particularly lots of portly queens such as yourself) — not nearly indicative of public opinion at large.

2. Even if it were, that in no way informs the soundness, righteousness, or logic of the policy or action being surveyed.

3. Actual surveys of American opinion hardly suggest a “landslide”. You might want to learn what a “landslide” in politics actually means, you queeny KellyAnne Conway wannabe.

“ – 54% of U.S. adults say the decision to withdraw troops from the country was the right one, while 42% say it was wrong, according to a Pew Research Center survey conducted Aug. 23-29”

“ The public is also broadly critical of the Biden administration’s handling of the situation in Afghanistan: Only about a quarter (26%) say the administration has done an excellent or good job; 29% say the administration has done an only fair job and 42% say it has done a poor job.”

For someone who accuses others of being overly sensitive and "caring" too much, you do go on, don't you, R138?

I said it was a landslide opinion here, silly queen. And I think this poll reflects the larger consensus: Americans don't care and are glad we're well out of it.

And I'm done with you.

^ i actually never said that. YOU are the one who keeps saying “NO ONE CARES!” But then continues to show how much you care. Lol.

What's disturbing is the revelation of how gullible U.S. Americans are to propaganda and brainwashing. I always thought we were the cool kids in school.

Trump seduced them, they fell for it and got humped and dumped.

All the media has to do is say something over and over and pretty soon everyone is parroting it.

Chaotic? "Nonsense" says datalounge

THe generals like wars because most are in the pockets of big Defense industry guys. The issues about the Afghanistan withdrawal are fading because they were unjustified, and because Biden has given the Defense Industry a new war to invest in. They are as happy as pigs in slop because they are manufacturing armaments for Ukraine. And when other countries like France or Germany or WTF ever send hardware they get a piece of that too. So now Biden is OK with them.

Instead of spending a trillion dollars on useless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, imagine if the US government spent that money on universal healthcare and infrastructure instead.

R144 I agree. And why has no one scrutinized the enormous amount of waste and corruption associated with Iraq after Bush invaded.

Imagine if we'd spent that on better education for our children.